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Tuesday, June 24, 2014

Another letter to SFWA

Dear SFWA President Steven Gould,

It has come to my attention that a convicted child molester still belongs to SFWA as of 23 June 2014. In light of your concerted efforts to expel me for a single tweet linking to a blog post deemed unacceptable to the organization, it very much appears that you and the rest of the SFWA Board have no similar objections to the sexual abuse of children. Given the recent decision to award SFWA's Grand Master award to Samuel Delany, a public supporter of the North American Man Boy Love Association, these facts raise some serious questions about SFWA's position concerning the sexual abuse of children.

I would very much appreciate it if you would explain to me and the rest of the world how a single expression of a private opinion on a personal blog merited expulsion from SFWA while multiple arrests over a period of 18 years, culminating in a conviction on multiple counts of child molesting, did not.

If you do not respond to this email, as you failed to respond to my previous questions concerning SFWA's continued support for Marion Zimmer Bradley, be aware that you will leave everyone little choice but to conclude that SFWA tolerates and celebrates the sexual abuse of children by its members.

Sincerely,
Vox

Attachment: Screen shot of SFWA Membership List

I also tweeted this:

A lot of criticism of @monsterhunter45 by @scalzi, @jimchines and @damiengwalter. Absolutely none of SFWA member @edwardekramer. #askthemwhy

Labels:

184 Comments:

Anonymous Josh June 24, 2014 9:46 AM  

Apparently according to his twitter Damien is too busy doing naked yoga.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 June 24, 2014 9:48 AM  

That's the problem with being a fanatic: sooner or later you end up being your own worst enemy.

Anonymous dh June 24, 2014 9:51 AM  

This is getting pretty serious. VD, it is on the edge of being ready to be picked up by a major media organization. I would recommend mailing this to them, and then taking three concrete steps:

1. Mailing copies to major publishers aligned with the SWFA. It would be good to also go through the history of major authors for each publisher and find anti-abuse quotes related to the Catholic church. Virtually everyone of them has made repeated comments over the last ten years.

2. Contacting the PR flaks for each of the major publishers and asking them if they support or reject SWFA's apparent policies regarding child abuse. Some of these publishers are owned by bigger organizations. After getting the first level response, go up to the parent organization. "One of your properties has said X. Do they also speak for you, Mr. Parent Organization?". This is how people get fired. Lower level flaks speak out of turn, and then it gets kicked up a level and when a disagreement happens, well, you know the rest.

3. Forwarding the responses or non-responses to #1 and #2 to various abuse prevention organizations. There are several doing good work in this field.

Happy to chip in if you need help with any of it.

Anonymous Steveo June 24, 2014 9:53 AM  

I predict the complicity will be deafening...

Anonymous Anonymous June 24, 2014 9:56 AM  

I think it is time to repost the pic of you with flaming sword with the SFWA membership list burning on the ground at your feet. That would be pretty awesome. You could even make a Dragoncon appearance with it.

Anonymous ... June 24, 2014 9:56 AM  

@edwardekramer ... real twitter account?

Anonymous VD June 24, 2014 9:58 AM  

Happy to chip in if you need help with any of it.

I don't have time for any of that. Finding the material (with the help of the Ilk) and making it public is about as far as I can reasonably go at the moment.

Anonymous VD June 24, 2014 9:59 AM  

@edwardekramer ... real twitter account?

Doubt it. But the reference to SFWA was interesting. As well as the use of the same picture.

Anonymous dh June 24, 2014 10:01 AM  

Bummer.

Maybe a kickstarter is in order. There are three or four investigators I could think of to put onto this thing and really blow it wide open, and create a set of research documents that really makes things uncomfortable at the SFWA. Especially if you have the private archives at your disposal.

It is highly, highly, highly unlikely that this was unknown throughout the SFWA.

Blogger Jim, June 24, 2014 10:02 AM  

I agree with dh above...this will make for excellent headlines on Drudge. But wonder if Huffpo caught wind of story if they would bury heads in sand or cover it

Anonymous jack June 24, 2014 10:03 AM  

Have I mentioned lately how very careful I am of not making an enemy of Vox Day?

I do have to admire dh's idea, though.

Blogger Chris Ritchie June 24, 2014 10:07 AM  

I absolutely love the comeuppance! Great job exposing their evil double standards.

Anonymous Josh June 24, 2014 10:12 AM  

If it can be shown that sfwa property or funds were used to support child molesters (and certainly the sfwa forums are sfwa property), that opens up a pretty big door for members to sue for misuse of funds. Or for former members to recover dues.

Anonymous Salt June 24, 2014 10:17 AM  

The National Man Boy Love Association should list SFWA as a supporting organization. I cannot fathom any basis for complaint by SFWA.

Anonymous dh June 24, 2014 10:19 AM  

jack--

It's very tempting to get involved or find someone who will if VD won't. For example, Stephen Gould, a SFWA big wig, is a writer working on the Avatar sequel projects with James Cameron. Fox is bankrolling that project. Fox is also bankrolling, through it's FX property, John Scalzi's Redshirts program. You now have two connections to Fox, through other organizations - FX and Cameron.

Step #1 is to get FX and Cameron's production company to stand by their employees/artists work. "We don't condone child abuse, but we stand by John Scalzi's leadership of the SFWA." Same thing for Gould.

Step #2 is to go to Fox, and see what they say. "Your organization is employing two former or current leaders of the SFWA, an organization now known to allow and even reward those working to normalize adult-child sexual relations. What is your policy on this type of relationship? Is that something you are comfortable with? At what point did your policy change to allow this type of advocacy activity within your organization?"

Step #3 is to go to partners of Fox. For example, Disney is working with James Cameron on Avatar theme park addition to it's theme park properties. Disney has a lot of sensitivity to this type of thing with children. "Disney, you are working with Fox and James Cameron on Avatar land within the Magic Kingdom. Fox has employed two past president's of an organization that openly rewards supporters of the North American Man Boy Love association, and even allows convicted pedophiles to become members while promoting their legacy and works. This organization has a history of supporting pedophiles going back decades. What is your position on normalizing child-adult sexual relations? Are you comfortable associating yourself with an organization like Fox and Cameron, who openly employ people engaged in this type of activism? Before you respond, let me read you what was said: 'We stand by John Scalzi and his leadership of the SFWA."

This is how it's done folks.

Blogger Dystopic June 24, 2014 10:20 AM  

The SFWA is no different than Joseph Stalin. Beria was known to do this sort of thing, Stalin even ensured that his daughter was never alone with the man. Yet Stalin did not care that Beria was the top man in the NKVD. As long as he was politically useful, he could rape and molest all he liked, and the Stalin government would keep a lid on it.

It can seem difficult to draw a hard line between all conservatives and all liberals. Certainly, politics is more of a continuum than anything else. Yet, it may be appropriate to say one major dividing line is this. The Left subsumes everything to politics. If you have the appropriate politics, all is forgiven. If you don't, all stops will be pulled in an effort to destroy you.

Anonymous Starbuck June 24, 2014 10:27 AM  

VD:

While I admire the thought and work that has gone into all this. Because this is even going beyond the WWII Japanese invasion threat "discussion". I will admit that this horse isn't dead yet and you seem to be just getting warmed up. I have to admit I am enjoying you putting their feet to the fire and warming it up slowly.
I applaude you are exposing these posers with their tolerance of child molesters in their midst.

But I want to ask. What is the goal here? Do you believe these people (not the child molesters) did something illegal? Are you just wanting to expose what hypocrites they are along with being slimey?

I am curious. But I do love how you are tearing them up. I wouldn't even think of doing something this intricate. I applaude you sir. Well done... So far.

Anonymous Roundtine June 24, 2014 10:28 AM  

Or for former members to recover dues.

Trading Places.

Anonymous Anonymous June 24, 2014 10:29 AM  

Don't make an enemy of dh!

Blogger Nate June 24, 2014 10:29 AM  

"If it can be shown that sfwa property or funds were used to support child molesters (and certainly the sfwa forums are sfwa property), that opens up a pretty big door for members to sue for misuse of funds. Or for former members to recover dues."

oooo..

Say... Vox... given that the SFWA has asserted that it owns its twitter feed and such... can you not then claim that SFWA property has been used to support child molesters. In fact one wonders if a little digging may produce evidence that such property facilitated such abuse.

Blogger Nate June 24, 2014 10:30 AM  

I hearby nominate DH to the position of Grand Inquisitor of the Dread Ilk. Seconds?

Anonymous Josh June 24, 2014 10:31 AM  

Second

Anonymous Anonymous June 24, 2014 10:32 AM  

Hhrrummps all around

Blogger Nate June 24, 2014 10:33 AM  

I didn't get a hhrumph outta that guy.

Anonymous Josh June 24, 2014 10:34 AM  

In fact one wonders if a little digging may produce evidence that such property facilitated such abuse.

If sfwa promoted Dragon con through any property during the time Kramer owned shares, they used organization property to enrich a child molester. Or if they allowed him to use sfwa property.

Anonymous mrl June 24, 2014 10:36 AM  

It seems to me there is an epidemic of sexual abuse of children in this country. It is in the homeschool community, the public school system (women teachers), the Catholic church and SFWA. Where are our children safe?

Anonymous Josh June 24, 2014 10:37 AM  

Wasn't some sfwa acolyte using indie go go to raise money for a project exposing the history of fascism in science fiction?

A similar project exposing the history of pedophilia is an equally valid work.

Blogger Guitar Man June 24, 2014 10:37 AM  

It is in the homeschool community,

Nice try. I see what you did there.

Anonymous bob k. mando June 24, 2014 10:37 AM  

i'd second that, but i'm out of butter AND salt now. popcorn supplies running low.

Anonymous Josh June 24, 2014 10:38 AM  

It is in the homeschool community

1) this is off topic
2) statistics or shut up

Blogger Jim, June 24, 2014 10:40 AM  

There is no warren strong enough to weather this storm...there are dozens on here right now reading all of this and planning their exit from SFWA

Anonymous Fiver June 24, 2014 10:44 AM  

the fields! They're covered with blood.

Anonymous Huckleberry -- est. 1977 June 24, 2014 10:45 AM  

This is how it's done folks

dh, you can be a pedantic pain from time to time, but I like your style.
Of course, shake any media company hard enough, and the pedophiles will tumble out like persimmons from a tree two weeks past harvest time.
If this can get the Drudge treatment, they're done, all of them. McCreepy, @scalzi, McSavage, and every mistaken-for-Jabba-the-Hut-at-the-cosplay-conventions in that Godforsaken organization; all of them will be done.

Anonymous Steveo June 24, 2014 10:47 AM  

Find the rants of the same minions on the priest abuse of the RCC...

then POST, it's juxtaposting!

Anonymous The other skeptic June 24, 2014 10:48 AM  

Maybe a kickstarter is in order.

They would not allow it in my opinion. They would claim that it violated their rules or something.

Anonymous dh June 24, 2014 10:53 AM  

It's true what you say about Drudge. Drudge has the biggest megaphone in the media-world today. He drives the media narrative 24/7, even after all these years. If something like this gets written in a major media piece, and then linked by Drudge, the pressure will be more than any of them can handle.

The only problem with Drudge is he is 100% a closet case. So you don't see all that many hard hitting focus pieces on that.

And when I say "this is how it's done", this is the system that the institutional left has created. It is a media-verse created and run by the left. They made it, they run it, they make the rules. But the rules are more or less there. And when your parent organization starts getting calls, some nameless faceless idiot with 62.5k followers who think he has clout will soon find out the meaning of the phrase "international media conglomerate".

They always think that they are the "in group" now. But in the end, it's a lie. They never have any real power. The real power is never shared. They think they are climbing the ladder, but it's not true. What's happening is they are still on the ground level, but the first rung is down in the mud. And every step up the ladder pushes another rung down, deeper into the mud.

Anonymous dh June 24, 2014 10:56 AM  

T.O.S.

I think my position as a leftist has given me super powers or something. You think kickstarter would reject this proposal:

"Children across the country are being abused. For only $5 you can kickstart a movement to end the abuse, and tell the powerful forces of big business and corporate greed that IT STOPS NOW.

Trigger Warnings: rape, child abuse, right-wing corporatist facism"

I think not.

Always, always, always punch back twice as hard.

Blogger The Original Hermit June 24, 2014 11:01 AM  

I heard mention of an alternative to Kickstarter, but I can't recall the name of it. Someone in the manosphere got their project cut a few months back because it violated some stupid rule they had, and the OP mentioned trying a different company.

Blogger Desdichado June 24, 2014 11:15 AM  

I think you're thinking of Indie-Go-Go and the Kermit Gosnell documentary, maybe.

Anonymous patrick kelly June 24, 2014 11:27 AM  

Ah, dh is now completely assimilated into the dark side borg of the dread ilk..........all according to Vox's plans I'm sure......well done, rabbit warrens across the interwebz should shake and tremble in fear of this dynamic duo...BWAHAHAHAH !! .."punch back twice as hard".... indeed.

Anonymous Starbuck June 24, 2014 11:30 AM  

I didn't get a hhrumph outta that guy.

Oh.. Uh.. Sorry... hhrumph!!

There...

Anonymous Earl June 24, 2014 11:38 AM  

Dh, your plan is despicable and pathetic. The real plan of action should be to personally go over there and start punching faces. That's the conservative masculine way to punch back twice as hard.

Anonymous Huckleberry -- est. 1977 June 24, 2014 11:38 AM  

I heard mention of an alternative to Kickstarter

Fund Anything

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein June 24, 2014 11:39 AM  

@Nate

The link is in order. Some *younger* readers (sadly) may not get the reference...

I didn't get a hhrumph outta that guy.

Anonymous JohnS June 24, 2014 11:45 AM  

Hmm... I've got an idea for killing two birds with one stone: spread the rumor that the US gov is outsourcing the "education" of Children's Crusade 2 (3rd World ed.) to the SFWA board.

Because literature!

Anonymous roo_ster June 24, 2014 11:47 AM  

Starbuck Wrote:
[But I want to ask. What is the goal here? Do you believe these people (not the child molesters) did something illegal? Are you just wanting to expose what hypocrites they are along with being slimey?]

I can not answer for VD, but Luke chapter 17 has something pertinent. ESV trans.

"1 And he said to his disciples, “Temptations to sin are sure to come, but woe to the one through whom they come! 2 It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin.[b] 3 Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, 4 and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

I would say that those who aided child molesters are worthy of rebuke on general principle. No further justification needed. Who knows, some who aided child molesters in the past may indeed repent and mend their ways?

As a parent, I also appreciate the heads-up. I am not likely to purchase or allow into my house the work of any of the shorteyes or their apologists. Too many copies of good old scifi in used book stores on on Kindle to risk that sort of pollution in my house.

Anonymous VD June 24, 2014 11:49 AM  

It's very tempting to get involved or find someone who will if VD won't.

Don't wait for me, dude. We're totally decentralized here. If you see the shot... take the shot!

Anonymous Jack Amok June 24, 2014 11:49 AM  

Hhrumph!

So, we gonna have a Number 6 dance later on?

Anonymous Edjamacator June 24, 2014 12:02 PM  

For example, Disney is working with James Cameron on Avatar theme park addition to it's theme park properties. Disney has a lot of sensitivity to this type of thing with children.

Except, according to an article I read a few years back, Disney has hired their own known pedophiles. Either for film making or something else as well. They may not care as much as you think, but may act like they do to save face if it was public enough.

Anonymous Noah B. June 24, 2014 12:05 PM  

They longer they try to hold out, the worse this is going to be for them. SFWA is finished.

Anonymous Difster June 24, 2014 12:05 PM  

I just created a Facebook group called SFWA Supports Child Sexual Abuse.
Here's the link

Anonymous FP June 24, 2014 12:05 PM  

"the link is in order. Some *younger* readers (sadly) may not get the reference..."

This scene seems appropriate... SFWA membership drive?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_urvjCXg6c

Anonymous YIH June 24, 2014 12:10 PM  

In the previous thread it was noted that Dragon Con went through a bitter divorce from Edward E. Kramer.
One thing I haven't seen is, was this perv banned from even attending Dragon Con or for that matter any other 'con'?
Considering how volunteer orgs that work with children/teens as well as schools, ect. have to now go through an extensive background checks as a form of self-defense against molestation suits wouldn't the 'cons' be in a similar position?

Anonymous bob k. mando June 24, 2014 12:18 PM  

Edjamacator June 24, 2014 12:02 PM
Except, according to an article I read a few years back, Disney has hired their own known pedophiles.



it's to be expected. DisneyCorp is also shot through with queers.

that's why 'Gay Days' have been happening for years at Walt Disney World and WDW doesn't do anything meaningful to put an end to it or warn breeder families off during the affected periods.

http://gaytravel.about.com/od/previewsofpridefestivals/qt/Disney_Gay_Days.htm


oh sure, they make a few PR noises every so often. but it's for show only.

Disney is NOT going to anything serious about a queer unless it looks like it might start hurting their 'kid friendly' rep.

Anonymous Boogeyman June 24, 2014 12:21 PM  

Payback this sweet, total, and cruel hasn't been seen since Kartman made that kid eat his own parents at the chili cook off.

Their tears shall be as sweet as honey.

Blogger RobertT June 24, 2014 12:23 PM  

Well it's pretty obvious, VD is nobody to pick a fight with. All these SFWA people are going down. In a big whoosh! Just like flushing your toilet.

Anonymous Invid June 24, 2014 12:24 PM  

Not the best quality, NSFW
Disney exposed South Park style
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9woq3L_NVO4

Anonymous dh June 24, 2014 12:28 PM  

Disney whatever you think does have a strong PR inclination to disassociate with controversy.

Blogger RobertT June 24, 2014 12:28 PM  

" This is getting pretty serious. "

Penn State kind of serious.

Anonymous Salt June 24, 2014 12:31 PM  

Are You A Pedophile? I May Have Just The Place For You!

Guess Karl's never heard of the SFWA.

Anonymous YIH June 24, 2014 12:32 PM  

Edumactor/bob k mando:
Either for film making or something else as well. Except, according to an article I read a few years back, Disney has hired their own known pedophiles.
Film making, the movie ''Powder'':
The film's production by Disney resulted in a controversy over the choice of director Victor Salva, who had been convicted of molesting a 12-year-old child actor during the production of his previous film, Clownhouse, in 1988. When Powder was released, the victim came forward again in an attempt to get others to boycott the film in protest at Disney's hiring Salva. Since then, Disney has not picked up any more pictures by Salva.[2][3]
it's to be expected. DisneyCorp is also shot through with queers.
I worked at Disney World about 20 years ago, and yes, yes it is. From my own observations at the time, 15-20% of it's workforce wouldn't surprise me one bit.
I will defend them on their stand on pedophilia however, any hint of that and the employee is canned posthaste. They were also the first company to entirely sever all ties with Michael Jack-son when those allegations surfaced.

Blogger Revelation Means Hope June 24, 2014 12:33 PM  

What makes this doubly fun is that most of the Pink SFF writers secretly are all in support of this kind of behavior. They have aligned with Satan, and the perversion and sin will only grow and grow with him in charge of your life.

See, they've openly embraced LBQT or whatever their acronym is, celebrated it, pushed it....they are evangelists for the favorite perversions of Satan's team.

Therefore, they are going to resist this in every possible way. They would rather tear SFWA apart than back off their support of the LBQT agenda.

Anonymous dh June 24, 2014 12:33 PM  

VD, Hines is claiming that he is not member and that the member directory shows he is not a member. What's the story?

Anonymous bob k. mando June 24, 2014 12:35 PM  

dh June 24, 2014 12:28 PM
Disney whatever you think does have a strong PR inclination to disassociate with controversy.



which doesn't disagree with anything i said.

i'm just pointing out that any 'change' at Disney will be pro forma and for appearances only.

and it's not what i 'think'. i know a guy who contracts regularly for Disney World. i have it first hand from him that the Disney exec queers carry on to such an extent DURING CORP MEETINGS that he has had to ask them to cool it because they were weirding him out.

i also know someone who interned as a chef there. i warned her before she went, and verified with her after she came back. she agreed, my warning was justified.

even by Muslim standards, i've got the direct testimony of one and half people.

Anonymous Difster June 24, 2014 12:36 PM  

SFWA now stands for: Sick F******s Welcome Abuse

Anonymous Mike M. June 24, 2014 12:43 PM  

They pulled him from their directory... hahaha.

Blogger Leatherwing June 24, 2014 12:44 PM  

VD, Hines is claiming that he is not member and that the member directory shows he is not a member. What's the story?

The searchable membership list here shows him as a lifetime active member. But he may have tweeted some badthought.

Anonymous Stickwick June 24, 2014 12:45 PM  

dh: VD, Hines is claiming that he is not member and that the member directory shows he is not a member. What's the story?

It's kind of annoying that you have to click on Hines' and Scalzi's Twitter pages to see that they're responding to this stuff. Why do these guys refuse to respond to Vox directly?

Blogger Leatherwing June 24, 2014 12:47 PM  

D'oh, dh was asking about Kramer. He's been scrubbed in the past few hours.

Anonymous Anonymous June 24, 2014 12:49 PM  

FYI, since Powder, Salva has made the Jeepers Creepers horror flicks among a few others. I actively avoid anything that slime makes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Salva

Anonymous Josh June 24, 2014 12:51 PM  

Why do these guys refuse to respond to Vox directly?

Because that would those their followers to a beating. And they don't want to lose their precious ~50,000 readers a day.

Anonymous Stickwick June 24, 2014 12:56 PM  

Josh: Because that would [expose?] their followers to a beating. And they don't want to lose their precious ~50,000 readers a day.

Guess I still don't understand gamma-male behavior all that well. Just seems if you're sure of your facts and position on something, you respond in a straightforward way.

Anonymous Difster June 24, 2014 12:56 PM  

VD, you should consider embedding your twitter feed in the sidebar.

Anonymous VD June 24, 2014 12:59 PM  

VD, Hines is claiming that he is not member and that the member directory shows he is not a member. What's the story?

Hines is a mendacious moron. He absolutely was a member. The member directory was scrubbed today, after I posted the screenshot that I took this morning proving that he was still listed on it.

Anonymous Josh June 24, 2014 1:02 PM  

Didn't sfwa admit that they actually don't keep track of membership figures?

Anonymous Stickwick June 24, 2014 1:02 PM  

VD: Hines is a mendacious moron. He absolutely was a member. The member directory was scrubbed today, after I posted the screenshot that I took this morning proving that he was still listed on it.

And suddenly all becomes clear.

Anonymous Anonymous June 24, 2014 1:03 PM  

*Makes Macaulay Caulkin "Home Alone" face.*

Anonymous Salt June 24, 2014 1:12 PM  

The member directory was scrubbed today, after I posted the screenshot that I took this morning proving that he was still listed on it

Bet he scrambled fast and furious too -

"Get my name off the membership roll !!! Not tomorrow or next week,,, NOW damnit, NOW!!!"

The implosion is gaining steam.

Anonymous Salt June 24, 2014 1:15 PM  

Hines does show up on a search.

Blogger CM June 24, 2014 1:16 PM  

Just seems if you're sure of your facts and position on something, you respond in a straightforward way.

Problem is what they are sure of usually isn't facts and after sticking their heads in the lion's mouth a couple times, it becomes clear that we are oblivious to the "facts" and willfully ignorant.

Anonymous takin' a look June 24, 2014 1:17 PM  

And the Sick Fuck Warty Assholes damn themselves for all time.....

Blogger Marissa June 24, 2014 1:19 PM  

At the age of 29, during production of Clownhouse, Salva sexually molested the film's 12-year-old lead actor, and filmed their encounters. Salva pleaded guilty to one count of lewd and lascivious conduct, one count of oral sex with a person under 14, and three counts of procuring child pornography.[1] Salva was sentenced to three years in prison, of which he served 15 months.[5]

How do you 1) get sentenced so shortly, 2) serve so shortly.

Anonymous Harsh June 24, 2014 1:21 PM  

D'oh, dh was asking about Kramer. He's been scrubbed in the past few hours.

He's been made an unperson.

Anonymous Daniel June 24, 2014 1:21 PM  

Funny coincidence. Ed Kramer just tweeted today for the first time in three years on the subject of memory erasure.

Anonymous Harsh June 24, 2014 1:22 PM  

VD, Hines is claiming that he is not member and that the member directory shows he is not a member. What's the story?

Just to clarify, Hines is claiming that Kramer is not a member.

Anonymous takin' a look June 24, 2014 1:23 PM  

"Marissa June 24, 2014 1:19 PM

At the age of 29, during production of Clownhouse, Salva sexually molested the film's 12-year-old lead actor, and filmed their encounters. Salva pleaded guilty to one count of lewd and lascivious conduct, one count of oral sex with a person under 14, and three counts of procuring child pornography.[1] Salva was sentenced to three years in prison, of which he served 15 months.[5]

How do you 1) get sentenced so shortly, 2) serve so shortly."

Mark Dutroux has the answer to your question....

http://www.whale.to/b/pedophocracy.html

Anonymous bob k. mando June 24, 2014 1:26 PM  

Stickwick June 24, 2014 12:56 PM
Guess I still don't understand gamma-male behavior all that well. Just seems if you're sure of your facts and position on something, you respond in a straightforward way.



*confused*

i think you understand them just fine? you seem to have done a good job of negatively describing the behavior ...

ie - if UNsure of facts or position, get weasely

Anonymous Jack Amok June 24, 2014 1:30 PM  

Hines is a mendacious moron. He absolutely was a member. The member directory was scrubbed today, after I posted the screenshot that I took this morning proving that he was still listed on it.

The responsible thing for Hines to say would be something like "Yes, Kramer was a member for many years, but in light of his conviction for indefensible crimes, we have expelled him this morning."

Instead of course, he just removed him from the website in order to claim Vox was making shit up.

There are two types of damage control. There's "Oh crap, we've been screwing up, we need to fix this" and there's "Oh crap, someone found us out, we need to hide the evidence." They're doing the latter.

Anonymous dh June 24, 2014 1:32 PM  

The coverup continues.

Blogger ashepherd June 24, 2014 1:45 PM  

I think going public with this has a high probability of backfiring for two reasons: 1) The current media does NOT have a conservative conscience. They laud anyone who is a victim and they still are trying to convert society to celebrate all manner of perversity. 2) Except for #1, the media is all about playing volleyball with issues. They toss it from one opinion to another because it is viewing the game that makes them money, not resolving matters. So the result will be endless opinions biased toward holding the immoral people up as the victims of "intolerance."

Anonymous dh June 24, 2014 1:45 PM  

The SWFA assumes that the site cannot be seen in the cache of Google, but I dont think this is true.

Individual member pages are cached:

For example:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:JSWMeu6t9CIJ:membership.sfwa.org/widget/Content/Members/MemberPublicProfile.aspx%3FpageId%3D308449%26memberId%3D8435943+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Because of how spidering usually works. If we can reverse engineer the guys member number we can probably prove it was in google at the right time.

Anonymous dh June 24, 2014 1:46 PM  

The responsible thing for Hines to say would be something like "Yes, Kramer was a member for many years, but in light of his conviction for indefensible crimes, we have expelled him this morning."


Of course he would be entitled to a process, and then need a board vote, and then he could appeal.

The whole thing is being memory-holed right now. Alex Jones conspiracy or not, this is pretty unskilled cover-up.

Anonymous bob k. mando June 24, 2014 1:47 PM  

the top tweet at Edward Kramer?
https://twitter.com/edwardekramer
"Scientists Selectively Erase and Restore Memories"

now WHY would a known pedophile with proclivities for hypnotism have an interest being able to 'selectively erase memories'?

truly, i am stumped by this conundrum.

Blogger ashepherd June 24, 2014 1:51 PM  

The Apostle Paul wrote "Take no part in the worthless deeds of evil and darkness; instead, expose them."
Vox, it seems that is what you are doing and I appreciate it. I've loved science fiction since I was a boy, and I'll date myself to say that few have measured up to my favorite, Isaac Asimov. I guess I like the "science" part of the fiction rather than the romance.
Anyway thanks for educating and exposing.

Anonymous Anonymous June 24, 2014 1:51 PM  

Film making, the movie ''Powder'':
The film's production by Disney resulted in a controversy over the choice of director Victor Salva, who had been convicted of molesting a 12-year-old child actor during the production of his previous film,


It didn't help that Powder included a scene where one boy watches another boy shower for a few moments for no particular reason, while the camera pans admiringly across his body -- a scene that was utterly gratuitous. It had nothing to do with the plot except to give the showering kid an excuse to beat up the watching kid, which could have been done a thousand other ways or just based on Powder's weirdness.

That's how brazen they are, though. Even when a guy's already been in trouble for it, he can't help but brag about it in his movies, and apparently no one else in the production company or on the set steps forward to put a stop to it. Because art.

Anonymous Krul June 24, 2014 1:56 PM  

So Hines is now saying that Kramer isn't on the membership list.

So what? If (a) he once held a lifetime membership, (b) he hasn't resigned, and (c) he wasn't expelled, then he's still a member no matter what the membership list says. Am I missing something?

Anonymous VD June 24, 2014 1:59 PM  

He was an Active member, not Lifetime. And I think it's funny that I'm being accused of lying for referring to the only resource made available to non-members to check on membership.

Anonymous rycamor June 24, 2014 2:11 PM  

I really think now is the time to get this information in the hands of Instapundit.

Anonymous JoeyWheels June 24, 2014 2:14 PM  

I second adding Vox's Twitter feed to the sidebar. I refuse to Tweet, Twit, Twat, Twet, Twot or Twut.

Blogger rycamor June 24, 2014 2:15 PM  

Also, lets put together a timeline of all this, so it will be obvious when the mendacious began to dissemble.

Anonymous Krul June 24, 2014 2:16 PM  

VD - He was an Active member, not Lifetime.

Does that mean his membership could have expired or been revoked? Otherwise I don't see how you could say that he's not a member.

Anonymous mrl June 24, 2014 2:17 PM  

Guitar Man and Josh it is in the homeschool community:
Doug Phillips of Vision Forum, Joshua Harris knowingly covered up for a man in his congregation, Patrick Henry College has been accused of covering up sex abuse of the women attending their college, the founders of The Old Homeschool Magazine's high school son sexually abused his cousin, Bill Gothard of Basic Life Principles stepped down because of sexual abuse. People need to realize no one is immune from this.

Blogger Marissa June 24, 2014 2:24 PM  

http://www.whale.to/b/pedophocracy.html

I can barely read that. Can you give a summary?

Blogger Guitar Man June 24, 2014 2:26 PM  

MRL,

I can't speak about those, but I think you provided one direct example for homeschooling...

Blogger Leatherwing June 24, 2014 2:28 PM  

The linkedin profile listed on Vox's screen shot indicates past membership. From the 2nd paragraph:
An active member of the Science Fiction Writer's Association (SFWA) for more than two decades, and a past Nebula Awards host, Ed also served as Vice-President and Trustee of the Horror Writers Association (HWA).

Anonymous Strange Aeons June 24, 2014 2:29 PM  

I was just skimming through Hines "rape, abuse, MZB" blog and saw he was directly asked which was worse, in regards to the current scandal vs Vox Day. For as evasive as his response was, I imagine he burned through at least a couple pairs of tapdancing shoes in one post alone...

Anonymous Stickwick June 24, 2014 2:33 PM  

bob k. mando: i think you understand them just fine? you seem to have done a good job of negatively describing the behavior ...

ie - if UNsure of facts or position, get weasely


Maybe it's my naivety, bob. Especially in the age of the Internet, when things are so easily checked, vetted, disseminated, etc., it's hard to accept that people sometimes just shamelessly and outright lie.

Anonymous dh June 24, 2014 2:33 PM  

mrl--

The difference is that in the homeschooling world, there is no additional access. If I were a cretinous child molester, who home-schooled his kids, I would have nearly unlimited access to my own kids. Which would be horrific. However, as a child molester public school teacher, I would have continued ongoing access to hundreds of kids, and be able to select out kids who are weak or damaged already. And I'd have a strong union and legal protections against investigation and termination.

There is no argument. It's not even close. Child-abuse happens too frequently, but homeschooling is not a new vector for it.

Anonymous YIH June 24, 2014 2:34 PM  

mrl:
I've heard some about Patrick Henry College but can't really say that it in and of itself it has anything to do with homeschooling.

Blogger Leatherwing June 24, 2014 2:36 PM  

FYI, I personally checked the SFWA.org membership list this morning and saw Ed Kramer listed between Mary Robinette Kowal and Barbara Krasnoff. I did not click through to the details page, simply typed 'K' in the search field and then selected the appropriate drop down (now showing "kern - kuns 301-350". Not sure what it was showing this morning.

After dh posted his query about "Hines claims he's not a member" I went and searched for Hines, then realized my reading comprehension error and went back to search for Kramer, who was gone.

Change had to have taken place between 10:00 and Noon Eastern time.

Anonymous JoeyWheels June 24, 2014 2:37 PM  

I checked in on the twits....


TheSteve‏@JabberwockySR·9m
@TheBarbarienne @jimchines I searched for @scalzi and @MaryRobinette to see if fonts and layout matched. They're close, but the link is off.
#
#
#
TheSteve‏@JabberwockySR·8m
@TheBarbarienne @jimchines Different font size for the links in non-forged results from his screenshot.


Seems that NOW they are purporting that our host is forging screenshots....

L A M E

Anonymous Harsh June 24, 2014 2:39 PM  

After dh posted his query about "Hines claims he's not a member" I went and searched for Hines, then realized my reading comprehension error and went back to search for Kramer, who was gone.

Additionally, Kramer has been airbrushed out of all photos of the Politburo... eh, I mean SFWA meetings.

Anonymous dh June 24, 2014 2:40 PM  

I am sure they are comparing the links based on the rendering of the webpage to what they see in thier own web-browser, once again showing how the average SFWA hack is stuck in 1990, where everything is formatted for print and the web is not a real thing.

Something tells me our intrepid host is not running Windows 7 and IE11 or Firefox 30 when he took that screenshot. The concept of device independence and rendering differences between engines never crossed their small minds.

Anonymous JoeyWheels June 24, 2014 2:44 PM  

I'm sure they are all applecultists so a browser other than an ijobs-approved method is abhorrent to them.

...pass me the napkins. I'm getting salt and butter all over my keyboard.

Anonymous Noah B. June 24, 2014 2:59 PM  

So their response to having child molesters amongst them is exactly what the child molesters themselves do: pretend like the whole thing never happened.

Can that be a coincidence?

Anonymous Peter Garstig June 24, 2014 3:08 PM  

The current SFWA membership list is now interesting to watch, as sudden drops might give you hints on something. Is the FBI watching?

Well played, Vox. Next time take the screeny with 2nd visible page (e.g. nytimes.com) and with full desktop...and never re-save the picture again.

Anonymous ... June 24, 2014 3:11 PM  

Samuel Delany... next for memory hole?

Anonymous bob k. mando June 24, 2014 3:19 PM  

Stickwick June 24, 2014 2:33 PM
Maybe it's my naivety, bob. ... it's hard to accept that people sometimes just shamelessly and outright lie.



the only thing i can do is refer you to BClinton ( celebrated by the Left for his ability to smoothly dissemble ) / Gore / Obama / Edwards / HClinton / Mann / Michael Moore / et al.

MANY people are quite successful with this 'strategy'.

they are 'successful' because there is no effective means of cutting them down when they do it. even if what they do rises to the level of actionable crimes ... well, you can see how long it's taken to get Ed off the street.

but then, we're back to me and my loony raving about the efficacy of dueling as social and genetic hygiene.

because i tell you what, if dueling was still extant, it would only take one father finding out what Kramer had done to his son.

Anonymous takin' a look June 24, 2014 3:29 PM  

" Marissa June 24, 2014 2:24 PM

http://www.whale.to/b/pedophocracy.html

I can barely read that. Can you give a summary?"

Okay.....are you on a phone? Simple, Mark Dutroux ran a kiddie porn and prostitution ring. made BIG BUXs, as in, owned six houses while he was ostensibly on welfare. Murdered at least four girls and his associate Bernard Weinstein. The police dragged ass forever on this case, in spite of numerous witnesses with video evidence, clothes, et cetera. from the victims. His own MOTHER repeatedly told the police he was holding little girls in dungeons he had built himself. Hell, the police had a VIDEO of him building one of these same dungeons.

He was first arrested with his wife (an elementary school teacher) both charged and sentenced in 1989(him for 15 years) released after three and while on welfare, he somehow purchased six houses. this is when the disappearances began of the local children. He was finally arrested in 1996, briefly "escaped" in 1998 and re-arrested, his trial finally took place in 2004.

You and the rest of the ilk need to read Dave McGowan's work. Seriously, these are not nightmare fairytales, these are real, horrific nightmares on a scale that just...Look, if you want to take down the SFWA, you need to research the Pedophacracy, Stuart Styvret, Aangirfan, there are more.

What was unique about the Dutroux case was that so much of the evidence was tied in to so many very highly placed people, very fast and very publically. It caused an uproar and a general strike, firemen turned their hoses on Parliament to symbolize washing away the filth. 350,000 people marched in Brussels, out of a nation of 11 million people. Great right?

Well, not so much, aside from Dutroux, nobody else really got caught.

Anonymous mrl June 24, 2014 3:42 PM  

Joshua Harris was homeschooled and his books are popular in the homeschool community. Bill Gothard is an advocate of homeschooling. Most students at Patrick Henry are homeschooled and the founder is Michael Farris who also founded HSLDA (provides lawyers for homeschoolers among other things) and he is a homeschooling father. Paul and Gena Suarez homeschool and their magazine is geared to homeschoolers. To my knowledge all of these people call themselves Christians. I would say that they are part of the homeschool community.

Anonymous mrl June 24, 2014 3:46 PM  

dh,
I disagree, homeschoolers go to church and some of these molesters are in the church.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 24, 2014 3:54 PM  

mrl, you do realize don't you that pedos are attracted to any place where kids are? They will attempt to worm their way into every organization that had kids. Discovering there are pedos sneaking into homeschool outfits, Boy Scout troops, public schools, private schools, sports teams, etc. is no more a condemnation of the organizations they are attempting to infiltrate than bank robbers are a condemnation of banks.

You have to distinguish between the Willie Suttons and Ben Bernanke's of the world.

Anonymous Edjamacator June 24, 2014 3:54 PM  

I disagree, homeschoolers go to church and some of these molesters are in the church.

There are some atheist homeschoolers who would probably have a problem with you lumping everyone into one group. But then, who cares about accuracy?

Blogger Nate June 24, 2014 3:57 PM  

"dh,
I disagree, homeschoolers go to church and some of these molesters are in the church."

Homeschoolers go to the mall and some of these molesters are in the mall.

Anonymous jack June 24, 2014 3:59 PM  

Problem with all this is the capacity of my stomach and the shortage of dollars to buy the popcorn, not to mention the decent bourbon. I may have to follow Fred Reed's lead and invest in Kino Red.
Honestly, this blog NEVER disappoints. Never. Looks like dh may be a rising star among the Ilk.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 June 24, 2014 4:08 PM  

mrl,

Good job accusing all homeschoolers of being child molesters.

Do us a favor and not grace us with your ignorance and hatemongering again, OK?

Anonymous bob k. mando June 24, 2014 4:08 PM  

if takin' a look's abridgment is tl;dnr think of it this way:

it's the Belgian version of the Lincoln pedophile ring here in the States:
http://trineday.com/paypal_store/product_pages/Franklin.html

http://www.franklincase.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=11&Itemid=9

which, when you start thinking about the enormous amounts of political and legal power that MUST be involved in these things ... starts making you wonder if David ( the world is ruled by lizards from outer space ) Icke is actually not a complete loon.

i mean, how does a man on welfare buy six houses? there MUST be a lot of money passing through his fingers.

how is it, then, that almost no one of any wealth or power is implicated in his crimes?

Anonymous bob k. mando June 24, 2014 4:10 PM  

Nate June 24, 2014 3:57 PM
Homeschoolers go to the mall and some of these molesters are in the mall.


homeschoolers play soccer and some of these molesters are in the game.


that's right, i just called soccer gay.

Blogger Nate June 24, 2014 4:12 PM  

"that's right, i just called soccer gay."

STOP CONCERN TROLLING!!!!

Anonymous Josh June 24, 2014 4:16 PM  

Homeschoolers go to the mall and some of these molesters are in the mall.

Lies. Homeschoolers only go out once a month to a Dave Ramsey approved discount store.

Blogger Guitar Man June 24, 2014 4:18 PM  

mrl,

Yet, you failed to implicate homeschooling as a known predatory community. And if I recall correctly, your examples only show 1 person who was involved specifically with the sexual abuse of a child.

I don't get your point. We aren't under the impression that authors are all child molesters because the SF community is covering up some of their own who are.

Anonymous Always OT June 24, 2014 4:27 PM  

soccer... plus: CIRCUMCISION is solid proof of molestation.

Anonymous Razoraid June 24, 2014 4:31 PM  

Touché! Kudos to you, keep fighting the good fight.

Anonymous VD June 24, 2014 4:33 PM  

Stop trying to change the subject and drop it, MRL.

Anonymous bob k. mando June 24, 2014 4:35 PM  

Nate June 24, 2014 4:12 PM
STOP CONCERN TROLLING!!!!



i only mention it because i CARE, Nate. can't you see how much i CARE?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRrfnvGQG1I

Anonymous Always OT June 24, 2014 4:37 PM  

Nate and Bob... you guys circumcised? Does it hurt your mutual pleasure?

Blogger Nate June 24, 2014 4:40 PM  

http://web.archive.org/web/20070928175958/http://www.edkramer.com/

archived version of Kramer's website.. where in he brags about being a member of the SFWA.

Anonymous takin' a look June 24, 2014 4:41 PM  

" bob k. mando June 24, 2014 4:08 PM"

"which, when you start thinking about the enormous amounts of political and legal power that MUST be involved in these things ... starts making you wonder if David ( the world is ruled by lizards from outer space ) Icke is actually not a complete loon."

Hey you said it, not me! But no, even a stopped clock is right twice a day, he was speaking out and naming names, (Jimmy Savile, etc) twenty years prior to it coming out, of course it had all the usual -SPACE LIZARD VAMPIRE QUEEN FROM HOLLOW EARTH- malarkey, which makes me think he is like the fat man with a megaphone, a gatekeeper and possible honeypot.

Still, we are admonished to be "wise as serpents". BTW, thank you, I am a speed reader and scatterbrained and tend to ramble a bit. But, mentioning the Fat one reminded me of Bohemian Grove and Paul Bonacci, apparently he and another boy were flown from Omaha to Sacramento, driven to "the place with the big,big trees" they describe hooded figures and apparently a "great bird or owl" this was way before Alex Jones and Bohemian Grove came on the radar.

Anonymous Stickwick June 24, 2014 4:46 PM  

bob k. mando: the only thing i can do is refer you to BClinton ( celebrated by the Left for his ability to smoothly dissemble ) / Gore / Obama / Edwards / HClinton / Mann / Michael Moore / et al.

Yep, there are many very effective liars and conmen out there. But note that most of these jerks got away with it before the Internet really became mainstream. I think it's no coincidence that the deep ideological division in the U.S. is occurring at a time when the Internet is THE source of information for most people. Look at all the hot water the current administration is in over Benghazi, the IRS, amnesty, etc. Thanks to the 'net, they can't control the narrative anymore.

(BTW, Bill Whittle came up with the all-time best unofficial title for Moore: The Mendacious Manatee of Malevolence.)

they are 'successful' because there is no effective means of cutting them down when they do it. even if what they do rises to the level of actionable crimes ... well, you can see how long it's taken to get Ed off the street.

Sure. But see how quickly it all goes to hell for these jerks and their enablers once the information gets out. I don't think you can get away with nearly as much these days.

Blogger Marissa June 24, 2014 5:05 PM  

TheSteve‏@JabberwockySR·9m
@TheBarbarienne @jimchines I searched for @scalzi and @MaryRobinette to see if fonts and layout matched. They're close, but the link is off.
#


I noticed this too at first (the ".com" from linked in is gone) but if you scroll down you'll notice lots of webpages that cut off the link like that (Machado was one).

Okay.....are you on a phone?

No, I meant it was difficult to read.

Blogger Brad Andrews June 24, 2014 5:12 PM  

OT: A 24 hour digital clock would only be right once a day if it was stopped....

Anonymous DrTorch June 24, 2014 5:19 PM  

Way OT: Our digital "never wrong" clock that picks up the signal from NIST radio broadcast is now running 16 hr fast. Physics has changed! (Or maybe the batteries are running out.)

Anonymous James Beech June 24, 2014 5:30 PM  

These SFWA folks have problems.

Anonymous Manifest D and teh FUnky Bunch June 24, 2014 5:37 PM  

Thanks for the link, Bob.

Dick Valentine rules.

Anonymous Stg58/Animal Mother June 24, 2014 6:09 PM  

" bob k. mando June 24, 2014 4:08 PM"

"which, when you start thinking about the enormous amounts of political and legal power that MUST be involved in these things ... starts making you wonder if David ( the world is ruled by lizards from outer space ) Icke is actually not a complete loon."

Hey you said it, not me! But no, even a stopped clock is right twice a day, he was speaking out and naming names, (Jimmy Savile, etc) twenty years prior to it coming out, of course it had all the usual -SPACE LIZARD VAMPIRE QUEEN FROM HOLLOW EARTH- malarkey, which makes me think he is like the fat man with a megaphone, a gatekeeper and possible honeypot.

Still, we are admonished to be "wise as serpents". BTW, thank you, I am a speed reader and scatterbrained and tend to ramble a bit. But, mentioning the Fat one reminded me of Bohemian Grove and Paul Bonacci, apparently he and another boy were flown from Omaha to Sacramento, driven to "the place with the big,big trees" they describe hooded figures and apparently a "great bird or owl" this was way before Alex Jones and Bohemian Grove came on the radar.


I was wondering when the Paul Bonacci and the Franklin Coverup were going to make their entrance. If you haven't read The Franklin Coverup by John DeCamp, do so. You will scream with rage. TL:DR: boys from Boys' Town smuggled into Reagan and Bush White House by Lawrence King of Omaha, Nebraska for sex parties.

Anonymous Anonymous June 24, 2014 6:10 PM  

Let us presume that the world of Science Fiction and Fantasy requires, to maintain its high readership (heh) and voluminous author pay, that some number of children must be subjected to horrific crimes. And, upon his discovery of that fact, each author must choose whether the world of Science Fiction and Fantasy is worth the crimes, or whether to abandon the institution and make his own way.

It calls to mind a certain Hugo Award winning short story by that notorious right-wing fascist and misogynist, Ursula K. Le Guin: The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas.

Blogger Marissa June 24, 2014 6:19 PM  

^^^Excellent comment!

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein June 24, 2014 6:29 PM  

I may have to follow Fred Reed's lead and invest in Kino Red.

Kino Red will drive spelling prowess below that of Nate.

Anonymous YIH June 24, 2014 6:30 PM  

mrl:
Joshua Harris was homeschooled and his books are popular in the homeschool community. Bill Gothard is an advocate of homeschooling. Most students at Patrick Henry are homeschooled and the founder is Michael Farris who also founded HSLDA (provides lawyers for homeschoolers among other things) and he is a homeschooling father. Paul and Gena Suarez homeschool and their magazine is geared to homeschoolers. To my knowledge all of these people call themselves Christians. I would say that they are part of the homeschool community.
And everyone who has ever eaten Italian food will most certainly die. And your point is?

Anonymous takin' a look June 24, 2014 6:59 PM  

"Stg58/Animal Mother June 24, 2014 6:09 PM

I was wondering when the Paul Bonacci and the Franklin Coverup were going to make their entrance. If you haven't read The Franklin Coverup by John DeCamp, do so. You will scream with rage. TL:DR: boys from Boys' Town smuggled into Reagan and Bush White House by Lawrence King of Omaha, Nebraska for sex parties."

There is also the rough draft of "Conspiracy of Silence" a Yorkshire/Discovery Channel collaboration that never aired, but thankfully, was uploaded on-line. It's not the greatest, but it will give you a rough idea of what went on during that time frame.

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/conspiracy-of-silence/

Anonymous Anonymous June 24, 2014 7:09 PM  

Looks like they missed one:

Edward E. Kramer (born on March 20, 1961) is an American editor and author of numerous science fiction, fantasy, and horror works, and co-founder of the Dragon Con fan convention in Atlanta, Georgia. He lives in Duluth, Georgia...

Kramer is a member of both the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America and Horror Writers Association (serving as both Vice-President and Trustee), and served on the board of the World Fantasy Convention and World Horror Society. [ [http://www.worldhorrorsociety.org/past.html World Horror Society | World Horror Convention ] ] His credits include more than a dozen published works of fiction and non-fiction, and a decade of work as a music critic and photojournalist. He co-wrote and directed the digital feature "Terror at Tate Manor", which debuted as a direct-to-Internet film.


Source: http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/360657

Blogger Bogey June 24, 2014 7:19 PM  

Notice since his profile was taken down now the ambiguity begins, was he actually a member or did they forget to remove him? Is he a lifetime member? Did he let his membership lapse? When was the last year he was a member?

Anonymous Noah B. June 24, 2014 7:30 PM  

"Notice since his profile was taken down now the ambiguity begins..."

As long as there is no response to Vox's letter, the presumption has to be that the SFWA is in full blown cover-up mode. Just look at the publicity that surrounded Vox's dismissal from this organization, yet there was deafening silence surrounding Mr. Kramer. They are terrified to now claim that Mr. Kramer's membership was revoked upon his conviction for fear they will be caught in a lie. So in all likelihood Mr. Kramer actually still is formally an SFWA member, if they haven't gone through the process of formally expelling him or obtained his resignation.

There is no ambiguity. SFWA is unwilling to denounce a convicted child molester.

Anonymous VD June 24, 2014 7:31 PM  

Kramer was definitely an SFWA member from 1992 to 2010 and possibly longer on both ends. He was definitely an Active member. Since he was not expelled, the only reason he was not listed as a member in the 2013 directory is because he failed to pay his dues sometime between 2011 and 2013. If he paid his dues after the 2013 directory was printed, he is a current Active member.

And even if he is not a current active member, as the SFWA.ORG membership list stated this morning, he will be if he pays his dues.

Anonymous Noah B. June 24, 2014 7:35 PM  

On the other hand, if Mr. Kramer's supporters continue to believe in his innocence, they are too cowardly to say that they stand by him and believe that he was wrongfully convicted.

Blogger Unknown June 24, 2014 7:57 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Daniel June 24, 2014 7:57 PM  

Marissa's right, wfgodbold. Nice find.

I sure hope people don't confuse it for:

The Ones Who Walk Away from NamBULAs

Everything about NamBULAs is pleasing: from the glittering balls captured in lucite, to the renown and worldwide accolades that rain down on glorious artists as if from the left hand of darkness itself. Even the monetary rewards--which are none--inspire artists of both genders-- female and transsexual--from the ghettos of white patriarchy to seek its glories and contentment.

And the artists come, brimming with integrity and original thought:

From the man in the green dress who wrote Rapeshirts, a college-level indictment of a borrowed Star Trek joke (with three punchlines)...

...to the Lady Puppetteer who screamed from her full length window on the boulevard: "But I am a professional one! But I am a professional one!"

...to the beloved goblin everyone called McCreepy, because he fancied himself a rape counselor and supermodeless, despite his awkward poses and comically rapey face.

They came from their white Republican enclaves, seeking moral confirmation of their inherent goodness.

And they found it. They Danced with Dragons, they imbibed the diet Sierra Mist of Avalon, they squeed at each other as do pigs when impaled by pitchforks. When they found the amazing ability to bestow the NamBULA upon one another as if it were a simple handshake, they reached a lupine state of ecstasy.

For years they did this, and though each one gazed on her NamBULA at both lights: first and last, and studied every feature of the special life-giving prize...not one ever thought it proper or polite to mention how remarkably similar the glittering balls encased in lucite -- well, certainly in a certain light, on certain days -- looked remarkably similar to something quite disturbing.

As the citizens of NamBULAs aged, some fell out of fashion. They were still accepted, but expected to remain quiet and be gracious to new artists who--though they had not yet created anything of value--had earned in their own way all rights to new NamBULAs.

It was then that a member of the old guard spoke up. "I know that many of you think that I don't have a heart, but I assure you that I do. In fact, I have at least two: they once belonged to children and they are encased in lucite in my NamBULA."

Everyone's mouths went dry as they looked--really looked this time--with shock and innocence lost. Indeed, their special, magical prizes had been forged on the lives of children.

They retreated into their conventional safe spaces and mourned. They mourned for days. They reflected. A few grew sick with guilt.

When the artists reconvened it was deemed appropriate, out of respect for the dead, to say nothing, and to honor their memory by continuing the great legacy of the NamBULAs.

But there was a tiny remnant of artists who buried their NamBULAs in the cemetery and marked the tiny graves "UNKNOWN." They packed up their few possessions which had not been deemed communal property, and they approached the gates.

The place they go towards is a place even less imaginable to most than the city of NamBULAs. The remaining artists, being devoid of sufficient talent or depth, could not describe it at all. It is possible it does not exist. In fact, the few who left went off in different directions, united only in their leaving.

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from NamBULAs.

Anonymous Salt June 24, 2014 7:58 PM  

Look at how SFWA handled Vox. Look at the blog posts and tweets the moment after his banishment.

Then, there's Kramer.

Anonymous bob k. mando June 24, 2014 8:02 PM  

circumcision, pedophilia in home schooling, gay soccer ( but i'm being redundant ), stoning adultresses and Valentines to Dicks ...er ... Dick Valentine.

yeah, i think we've got a large enough sample size.

the Ilk are gay. it is SCIENCE!



Stickwick June 24, 2014 4:46 PM
I think it's no coincidence that the deep ideological division in the U.S.



deep ideological division? this isn't 'deep ideological division'. 1861 is 'deep ideological division'.

Joe McCarthy is 'deep ideological division'.



Stickwick June 24, 2014 4:46 PM
Thanks to the 'net, they can't control the narrative anymore.


that's not the issue.

the issue is, "Are they being stopped?"

and, with very few exceptions ( Gary Hart, Edwards ) the answer is a resounding, "No."

Anonymous takin' a look June 24, 2014 8:15 PM  

Food for thought.....

http://twelfthbough.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-illusion-of-privacy-in-limited.html

" the illusion of privacy in a limited hangout world

With a few keystrokes, it is now possible for an investigator to determine a target’s location, activities, finances, sexual orientation, religion, politics, habits, hobbies, friends, family, their entire personal and professional histories… even accurately predict what they will do and where they will go in the future. Without leaving the office, a government agent can surveil a subject and “watch” their activities 24/7/365: where they drive, when they walk down the street, if they attend a church or synagogue or mosque or a demonstration or visit an abortion clinic or a “known criminal activity location” or meet with a “targeted person” or a disliked political activist. There is no longer any place to hide. Follow The Money: Privacy, A Postmortem

So... does that include pedophiles? Or are they some sort of protected group?
Because there is no privacy.
Certainly no online privacy.
So how do the pedophiles get away with it?...]

[....Aangirfan has posted at length about Jimmy Savile, the pedophile predator. At the beginning when the news about Savile started to break, we saw the usual treatment on the internet. In the comment section the hue and cry about 'Why are all these people coming forward now when the poor guy can't defend himself BLAH BLAH BLAH they must be lying....'

Because Who Could Have Imagined? Has nothing untoward like this ever happened? Have people not read the pedopocracy? Have they not heard about the Franklin scandal and Marc Dutroux, Holly Grieg and many others? Are there so many out there so innocent of knowledge? After all this time? How do they manage to avoid the truth so assiduously?

The people who deny the horrific child abuse -- the perpetrators, the scale and horror -- are either hopelessly naive or participating in the cover up. For those who have lifted up the rock and peeked underneath, we know that people like Savile and Sandusky are perfectly consistent with organized crime rings that enlist many, many people in positions of power at the core, along with the countless disposable scumbags on the periphery.....]

[......"Because, seems to us, if there were some authorities out there who were serious about stopping pedophiles, they could just bypass all that pesky privacy bullshit that they already bypass whenever they feel like it, since 911 changed everything and the NSA collects every speck of data every email phone call every breath you take if they think you might be a terrorist, even though they know all the terrorists because they are all on the payroll, they WHY PRAY TELL doesn't the bypass-your-rights door ever swing the other way, like when there's a fucking predator pedophile or a million of them, who are out there swapping their filthy abusive loot with each other? Why does the RULE OF LAW only come into play when the criminals need it for protection? If meantime the NSA and corporations are collecting data on E V E R Y O N E, for what reason did we sacrifice our privacy, if we can't even expect pedophiles to be stopped in the bargain???....]

You get the gist.

Anonymous Oblivious June 24, 2014 8:19 PM  

VOX IS MORE CREEPY THAN CHILD RAPISTS

Anonymous Jack Amok June 24, 2014 8:29 PM  

So... does that include pedophiles? Or are they some sort of protected group?

As long as they don't donate money to Tea Party groups, I imagine they're in the clear.

Blogger Giraffe June 24, 2014 8:31 PM  

I guess it falls to me.

SFWA expelled the blog owner. I seriously doubt they'll respond to him, whatever he says in one of his letters. It's sorta like that ex that keeps calling and just showing up at your work. It's creepy and pathetic.

I'm going to go ahead and predict all of this outrage that the Ilk is generating will amount to nothing. Nothing will come of it.


So, nothing will come of it because SFWA doesn't care that several of their members like the kiddos? Or because they are ignoring Vox, they don't know about it? I don't think they can say "la la la" loud enough for me to believe the latter. You showed up. Things have happened, websites have been scrubbed. They know. You know they do.

So either they are evil enough that they don't care. Or something will come of it.

Anonymous The other skeptic June 24, 2014 8:53 PM  

The person who should do the job is the person who is most qualified and I think that we have some options, don't we?

Who said that? One of the kiddie diddlers from the SFWA?

Anonymous kh123 June 24, 2014 8:54 PM  

"It's sorta like that ex that keeps calling and just showing up at your work. It's creepy and pathetic."

So creepy that they have to quickly take down evidence and keep mum about the whole thing the meanwhile. Except for the copious amounts of twitter faggotry, aimed at he who shall not be named - the only one that seems to have bothered with taking names and asking who exactly knew what this entire time.

Yes, pedos with multiple convictions are not the creepy ones. When in... Athens, right.


Anonymous takin' a look June 24, 2014 8:54 PM  

Jack Amok June 24, 2014 8:29 PM

"As long as they don't donate money to Tea Party groups, I imagine they're in the clear."

Thank you for the laugh, bittersweet as it is.

-Giraffe June 24, 2014 8:31 PM

"So, nothing will come of it because SFWA doesn't care that several of their members like the kiddos? Or because they are ignoring Vox, they don't know about it? I don't think they can say "la la la" loud enough for me to believe the latter. You showed up. Things have happened, websites have been scrubbed. They know. You know they do.

So either they are evil enough that they don't care. Or something will come of it."

I do hope so, these aren't rocket scientists after all, they just play act like they are, in drag no less.


Anonymous kh123 June 24, 2014 9:11 PM  

...Being generous and assuming that most of the SFWA aren't channeling Themistocles, I think it's split between those who are evil enough that they'd keep on with the current line, because their pride demands it (anything to keep from admitting that Voldemort called them out on - again being generous - their negligence), and those who will belatedly condemn the pedos in their midst, while twittering about how Vox is RSHDOATARP. Because their pride demands it.

Actually, there are a few examples of the latter already seems.

Anonymous kh123 June 24, 2014 9:21 PM  

...As low of a bar as it is, it'd be better to see more of the latter. Is a case of hoping for a Nineveh rather than a Sodom. Or, as may be more apt, a Sodom rather than a Bethsaida or Chorazin.

Anonymous Leatherwing June 24, 2014 9:35 PM  

D'oh, I just got it. Around 2:00 today, Mary Robinette Kowal tweeted that Vox Day had threatened to post her personal information from SFWA onto the Internet. Vox had actually said he was going to post the page with Kramer's info (follow the donotlink for the full conversation between Mary and Vox).

During my twitter discussion with Mary (I am @droolonthefrog) she said she didn't know that Kramer was in the SFWA and that he wasn't in her membership directory. If he isn't in her directory, then she wouldn't connect her own profile with Kramer's. But she realized that if Vox posted Kramer's info, hers was on the same page.

I'm not sure she is being honest.

Blogger Nate June 24, 2014 9:58 PM  

obviously she's being dishonest because the SFWA already has posted her info online.

Anonymous The other skeptic June 24, 2014 10:03 PM  

SFWA should run with this:

The European Origins of Violence and Criminality

Anonymous NateM June 24, 2014 10:33 PM  

Yes, Thank god your brilliance will be saved for posterity, ObviousTroll /sarcasm

Anonymous kh123 June 24, 2014 10:40 PM  

It's sort of like pottery showing scenes of pederasty. You know, for archaeological posterity.

Anonymous The other skeptic June 24, 2014 10:51 PM  

Heh, they are having a special on that other child molester on Access Hollywood.

Blogger Eileen Brown June 24, 2014 10:51 PM  

OH boy. I read a lot of this but as time is passing, I had to skip some. IF I can interject here --- It does not matter if names were removed from a website as the "Wayback Machine" has snapshots of any particular web page, over time. It is the web archive and does not get 'scrubbed' like some folks think; they think they can delete content but it's still out there. Here it is --- http://archive.org/web/ --- simple to use and with a little exploring, you may find the information they 'deleted.' I do research for any number of business types and find the Wayback Machine to be a great aid in proving content 'was as it really was.'

Blogger Krul June 24, 2014 11:24 PM  

It's sorta like that ex that keeps calling and just showing up at your work. It's creepy and pathetic.

Unlike the child rapists and their defenders, who aren't creepy and pathetic.

Anonymous Scintan June 25, 2014 12:13 AM  

At least someone quoted the entirety of my post, to ensure that it stays in the thread.

Since it's pretty clear that there's already been a response to Vox's actions and letters, why would you want evidence of your stupidity kept for posterity?

Anonymous takin' a look June 25, 2014 2:21 AM  

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/06/140624105854.htm?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+sciencedaily%2Ftop_news%2Ftop_science+%28ScienceDaily%3A+Top+Science+News%29&utm_content=FaceBook

A blood-sucking maggot of dank, nasty waters that fed on slimy salamanders..... ;-)

Anonymous the bandit June 25, 2014 9:53 AM  

I'd kick in on that kickstarter, dh.

Anonymous Leatherwing June 25, 2014 12:23 PM  

Eileen Brown., the Wayback machine and google cache save web pages. Kramer's info can only be seen as the result of a database search. So unless someone has a backed up copy of the entire contents of the SFWA database, it won't be found.

Anonymous Anonymous June 25, 2014 12:42 PM  

Leatherwing: Indeed. I spent an hour yesterday trying different ways to make the Wayback Machine cough up the old SFWA/Kramer listing and it became evident there was a missing piece it did not download -- presumably the database you mention. The latest Wayback capture of the SFWA site was February 9, 2014 -- and being so recent it would have been perfect to illustrate the coverup, had it included the membership list.

Blogger Dox Day Teddy Spagetthhi June 25, 2014 9:08 PM  

I demand an swift response from the SFWA - While am I am glad VD shouts the truth of this whole quagmire, I am done hearing about child molesters, deviant behaviors and crossing dressing. (by way, size 12 for the men, as so it appears, their poor wives must be ashamed or need the press even if its deplorably revolting.) But these matters must be documented here and there.

What a honor it was for Vox to be purged from these, I don't know what kind of people. Furthermore, where in their guidebook or protocols is child molestation and other acts of harm condoned?

What happened to this org?

It burned the pants off a few anti Voxtypes b/c Voxran for office
,has a beautiful godly wife, has his OWN Castlia house and other avenues for exposure and revenue.e

A mensa guy will always out do the lessers.

TEAM VOX!

Anonymous Domaine June 25, 2014 9:38 PM  

Eliza, as my grandpa used to say, you can demand in one hand and shit in the other and see which one fills up first.

Out of curiosity, are you or have you ever been a SFWA member, or are you just a vox fanboi

Anonymous Ptomaine June 26, 2014 3:20 AM  

Oh, and by the way, I may not be able to type for awhile since both hands are filling up fast. Just leave a response as soon as possible, since drive-by demands by myself are the most imperati.... Ah, oh.... Wooo. So that's what I ate last night.

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