ALL BLOG POSTS AND COMMENTS COPYRIGHT (C) 2003-2018 VOX DAY. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. REPRODUCTION WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED.

Thursday, June 26, 2014

Circling the wagons, poisoning the well

Colleen Doran points out one of the hidden costs of an abusive community:
I have heard from many people in the last couple of days (men and women) who had to deal with multiple incidents from multiple perps themselves, and most said they got out of fandom because of it. Fans may think Bradley was a mighty fine writer, or that comic book was a mighty fine comic, but consider all of the art we’ll never see and books we’ll never read because the young people who might have wanted to make them someday ran screaming from this community.

These people poisoned the well for generations of fans, and future writers and artists. And the poison not only came from the perps, but from the people who covered up for them, claiming if the outside world knew what really goes on, “it might make fandom look bad.”

No folks, YOU did that. You did.
S. Andrew Swann adds:
What’s disheartening is that the general reaction of SF Fandom to things like this echoes the reaction I’ve seen from just about any organized group to this kind of thing, esp. when someone of some weight and power in the community is involved in the abuse. Be it Jerry Sandusky at Penn State, Jimmy Savile at the BBC, or the Catholic Church to their own abusive priests. It’s like everyone has this script that tells them they must continue to enable abuse to protect their own little community.
After SFWA quickly leaped to wipe Ed Kramer from their online membership list on 24 June 2014 following my post of a screen capture proving Kramer's SFWA membership yesterday, some of its fans and members began to pretend that Kramer's apparent failure to pay his dues sometime between 2011 and 2013 somehow exculpates SFWA's complete failure to do anything but publicly defend the child molester while he was "an active member of the Science Fiction Writer's Association (SFWA) for more than two decades, and a past Nebula Awards host". This is how they continue "to protect their own little community":
  • Vox attempting to defame with phony "screenshot" showing Ed Kramer still a member. - Thomas Wagner
  • Why should we keep talking about Kramer? Oh, right, because VD made up some fake bullshit to stir controversy. Not surprising at all. - Shaun Duke
  • The Naive Idiocy of Not Checking Your Facts Before Making Accusations Online - John Scalzi
  • Yeah. So Kramer isn't actually a member of SFWA. (Though it looks like he was an associate member...four years ago.) #FactChecking  - Jim C Hines
  • Font in the link on his screenshot doesn't look right to me, size difference. - JabberwockySR
  • I'm not a member, and when I do a search at the site Jim linked, I get 0 results found. Searched just "kramer." - The Barbarienne
  • Nah, can't be. Ed Kramer's not currently a SFWA member. I mean, it's not like the troll would *lie* about that. Or not have their facts in order before spouting off." - Jazzfish
  • VD says the SFWA removed Kramer's entry right after he posted, but I think he's lying and the screen grab is a fake - Agent Mimi 
  • What a troll. Never could understand such petty BS. How small his soul must be to run a campaign of destruction of others. - Walter L. Fisher
If there are others, let me know. These people must be put on the record for their attempts to whitewash the problematic past. The screen capture is not a fake. Multiple readers here have testified that they saw Kramer on the list and SFWA has not denied the fact that Edward E. Kramer was on the SFWA.ORG membership list as of 5:04 AM EST, 24 June 2014. The fact is that Kramer was listed in the SFWA print directory in 2010 and I am still waiting to hear from someone who has the 2011 and 2012 directories. The fact is that Kramer himself said he was an SFWA member "for more than two decades". And the fact is that numerous members of the science fiction community are attacking me and deceitfully claiming that I forged a screen capture rather than believe the well-documented truth: SFWA has harbored, defended, and celebrated child molesters for more than 50 years and is still doing so today.

Furthermore, even if Ed Kramer stopped paying his dues at some point between 2011 and 2014, how is that to SFWA's credit? They did not criticize him. They did not investigate him. They did not expel him. They did not cut ties to him. They did not do any of these things even though Dragoncon began attempting to cut ties with the man 14 years ago! Instead, as I pointed out, SFWA defended him, and now its defenders are attempting to deny the undeniable evidence literally in front of their eyes rather than admit that SFWA has a real and ongoing problem with child molesters in its midst.

And, if Ed Kramer paid his dues tomorrow, he would again be an Active member in good standing. As he was for more than 20 years.

Consider how many SFWA people are doing exactly as their predecessors who defended Ed Kramer did in 2004 and 2006, only now they are pointing out that there isn't any hard evidence that their new Grand Master ever put his words into action. Keeping in mind that the SFWA Board produced an 80-page investigative report on the basis of a single tweet last year, when did SFWA ever do a similar investigation of the author of Hogg: A Novel on the basis of his public support for NAMBLA or even this review of his book by Publisher's Weekly?
Hugo-and Nebula Award-winner Delany - whose early books were fascinating but whose recent efforts have grown increasingly obtuse - has been trying to get this pornographic novel published since 1973. The main narrator here is an 11-year-old boy who joins up with a raping, murdering pederast named Hogg. Coprophiliac Hogg violates women for pay. He enlists the help of other pedophiliac murdering rapists - Nigg, Dago and Denny - and the group sets off to perform acts of hideous violence. After the attacks, a biker friend of Hogg's sells the boy into sexual slavery to dockyard slum resident Big Sambo, who keeps his 12-year-old daughter for prostitution and his own perversions. The traumatized little girl is gang-raped by Hogg's crew as well. Meanwhile, teenaged Denny goes on an insane mutilating and mass-murder spree, eludes the police and finally returns to Hogg and the hopelessly confused narrator, who has been "rescued" after Hogg murders Big Sambo. Gang-rape attacks and criminal sex orgies are detailed at excruciating length, with photographic realism.
That monstrosity is precisely what SFWA chose to celebrate in May 2014. SFWA President Steven Gould, who was personally responsible for the decision to select Delany,  was "delighted" to select the author of Hogg instead of Frank Herbert, Jerry Pournelle, Larry Niven, or other, much more deserving SF authors:
One of the perks of being SFWA president is the option of selecting the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America’s next Damon Knight Memorial Grand Master. One of the tragedies is we only get to select one a year. That said, from the grains of sand in my pocket, I am delighted to pull this star. Samuel R. Delany is one of science fiction’s most influential authors, critics, and teachers and it is my great honor to announce his selection. When discussing him as this year’s choice with the board, past-presidents, and members, the most frequent response I received was, “He’s not already?” Well he is now.
If Delany was truly "one of science fiction’s most influential authors", then science fiction would be in dire straits indeed. Fortunately, aside from a fairly small number of Pink SF/F freakshows like Gould, Delany isn't even remotely influential. Virtually no one actually reads his perverted sewage: Dhalgren is #523,915 on Kindle, Nova is #381,524, and Hogg is #873,530. Unfortunately, there are those who unwittingly read the writers influenced by him. Writers like this one:
The Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America has named Samuel R. Delany its newest Grand Master.... I will say this: This is an award both well chosen and well deserved.
 - John Scalzi, 4 December 2013
In light of what we have learned about the way in which the crimes of Walter Breen and Marion Zimmer Bradley were directly tied to the dark themes of their literary work, is it truly justifiable to give another award-winning author the benefit of the doubt and simply assume his innocence without asking any questions at all? Or will it eventually come out that the SF community is again doing what it has repeatedly done over the last 50 years and circled its wagons in defense of yet another celebrated child molester? I have invented nothing here. This is what they are.

To paraphrase Miss Doran: "Even when abuse is right in their faces, they will cover up and deny."

Labels:

181 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous June 26, 2014 5:21 AM  

Utterly disgusting. These people are vermin. All molesters and their enablers & protectors should be executed.

Anonymous Asatru Heathen June 26, 2014 5:30 AM  

For those of us that are voting for this year's NAmBULA awards, it would be very, very helpful to have a list of the nominees that have come out against rape and child abuse, and those who cover for rapists and child abusers.

Blogger James Dixon June 26, 2014 5:47 AM  

> If Delany was truly "one of science fiction’s most influential authors", then science fiction would be in dire straits indeed.

I made the mistake of reading Delany way back when I was in college in the late 70's. His work sucked even then.

Blogger James Dixon June 26, 2014 6:07 AM  

It's also enlightening to watch these people and see that no matter what it is you say or do, their automatic response is that you must be lying.

It's almost like that's their default assumption about people. One wonders why that would be, doesn't one...

Anonymous Asatru Heathen June 26, 2014 6:19 AM  

I can't seem to edit my previous comment - I actually meant the Hugo awards. I believe the voting ends some time in August?

Anonymous Bz June 26, 2014 6:20 AM  

Some interesting comments on that post. Here's one:

"Thanks for standing up. During the 1980s, I often heard such rumors, and never doubted that such things happened. We just stuck with other fans our age and never stayed at any one con party for long. Sure, I’m male, but as we know — sadly — boys are also subject to being “inducted” into these cabals."

So there could be more nasty stuff ready to seep out of SFWA.

I think the author, Doran, is somewhat mistaken when she writes "This isn’t just about letting your freak flag fly." She might think doing so is liberating self-expression, but it also will put one in contact with some offputting, plain off, skeevy or nasty people, i.e., the freaks, and the things they do.

Anonymous Pat Hannagan June 26, 2014 6:20 AM  

It's well past time that Whites woke up and realised that the Left isn't insane, they haven't gone crazy, they aren't subject to Stockholm Syndrome; they're a bunch of malicious perverts who want nothing less than than the death of you, your children and your extended family all on account of you being White.

The Left is the personification of Evil.

Anonymous Toby Temple June 26, 2014 6:26 AM  

If it would help, I can send you a screenshot of Edward E. Kramer's linkedin profile.

It says there:

As a photojournalist and music critic, Ed’s features were syndicated through the NY Times regional wire; his photography and portraits graced the pages of Billboard, Rolling Stone, Time, and USA Today. Ed's original fiction appears in numerous anthologies, collections, and magazines. In 1987, Ed founded America's largest annual pop-cultural event, Dragon Con, and served as Chairman for fourteen years. An active member of the Science Fiction Writer's Association (SFWA) for more than two decades, and a past Nebula Awards host, Ed also served as Vice-President and Trustee of the Horror Writers Association (HWA).

Anonymous Bz June 26, 2014 6:28 AM  

Also, a bit of a tangent but has "trigger warning" become just a "major drama ahead" traffic sign? It's a bit disingenuous to headline the post with a child abuse quote, then put in a "trigger warning" right below it. Thanks for the heads up, buddy.

These trigger warnings are really the progressive version of the "parental advisory" stickers. In that sense, perhaps they should be encouraged, like, "Trigger warning: positive depictions of homosexuality, gay marriage, feminism, socialism, hatred of straight white males".

Anonymous TroperA June 26, 2014 6:33 AM  

Holy crap! Samuel Delaney looks like a demented Santa Claus! (Only he wants kids to do more than just sit on his lap.)

Anonymous Bz June 26, 2014 6:35 AM  

PS. My "trigger warning" comment was about Doran's post linked above. Somehow it seemed clearer when I wrote it.

Anonymous takin' a look June 26, 2014 6:40 AM  

"Pat Hannagan June 26, 2014 6:20 AM

It's well past time that Whites woke up and realised that the Left isn't insane, they haven't gone crazy, they aren't subject to Stockholm Syndrome; they're a bunch of malicious perverts who want nothing less than than the death of you, your children* and your extended family all on account of you being White.

The Left is the personification of Evil."

*No, they don't want the children dead....Although the kids eventually will wish they were....

As for the rest, well, necrophiliacs need lovin' too.

Anonymous SDH June 26, 2014 6:42 AM  

And, if Ed Kramer paid his dues tomorrow, he would again be an Active member in good standing.

Can anyone cut a check for Kramer's dues? It's at most $320.

Blogger NMA June 26, 2014 6:46 AM  

The lying is pretty disgusting, but so are the constant attempts to change the subject. The typical discussion (and I'm looking at Luhrs, Sutherland, Kowal, Scalzi and Hines among others here) goes:

"Child abuse happened and it's terrible"
"We're going to clean up all the abuse in fandom"
"Abuse is that time when James Frenkel propositioned a middle aged woman for sex"
"Abuse is when somebody with poor social skills talked to me at a convention"
"Abuse is when somebody disagreed with me on twitter"
"Lets make a policy where nobody gets to disagree with us online"
"We've stopped the abuse, pay no attention to the NAMBLA members behind the curtain"

Blogger Cataline Sergius June 26, 2014 6:48 AM  

William Gibson has referred to Dhalgren as "A riddle that was never meant to be solved."

Or more accurately a book that was never meant to be read. Very little of the that New Wave crap from the 1970s is standing the test of time but Dhalgren is particular is over rated.

It's a fever dream put on paper by a man who spent time in a mental health ward. More at home being read out loud at a coffee house accompanied by slow bongo drums, than being read by annoyed college freshmen in the mid 1980s.

God damn hippy TAs.

Anonymous Steveo June 26, 2014 7:40 AM  

Let's look at someone from science for some perspective... Albert anyone?

“The world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it.”
― Albert Einstein

This pathetic group at SFWA profits from their manufactured status in the SF/F community - that is all they care about and their actions demonstrate it; circling the wagons is the perfect metaphor. From their self-aggrandizing ivory tower they talk about fandom, but they really mean "marks" as they con the public with their priestly blessings of these freaks. Now, had they been other than this... they would have said something like, "holy crap, who are these sickos, perversely & savagely abusing children and how can any decent human being celebrate and promote their celebrity?" Then they would have run them out of the community on a rail. BUT NO, each and every one of them would rather cover the torn bodies of children and walk by, admonishing... "nothing to see here". It's even worse than standing on the bodies of Sharon Tate (and 6 others) and honoring Charles Manson, for he was held accountable by being locked away for life - away from society.. and SFWA won't even acknowledge the crimes of their compatriots, no, they celebrate the slime. Enjoy your membership, I'll not shake the hand of one of you, or acknowledge your members presence. Enjoy your narrative SFWA and your consequences... writers indeed.

Anonymous AmyJ June 26, 2014 7:59 AM  

Makes you wonder how many of them have bank searched their social media to find any mentions of Delany or.Bradley so they could delete them before calling VD a liar. Swine.

Anonymous NateM June 26, 2014 8:00 AM  

"He enlists the help of other pedophiliac murdering rapists - Nigg, Dago and Denny - and the group sets off to perform acts of hideous violence. "

Oh come now, VD, it sounds like a lovely story of multicultural understanding

Anonymous Toby Temple June 26, 2014 8:09 AM  

Edward E. Kramer's twitter

is an American Editor, Writer, Producer, Screennwriter, Agent, SFWA, WGA. Photographer and Photojournalist.

Anonymous Porky June 26, 2014 8:13 AM  

So John Scalzi and Steven Gould think that a guy who writes child molester porn is worthy of the title "Grand Master"?

Well, looks like...they've chosen their master.

Anonymous DrTorch June 26, 2014 8:14 AM  

In your first link, here is a comment made by Harland Leyside:
If anything, insofar as you admired her work, perhaps Bradley’s writing should be seen as atonement? What she gave to the world that was good, against what she did that was bad.

Seriously?

I echo the blog author's response:
Writing a nice book is not atonement for raping children.

But it's telling how much people want to defend these criminals. And perhaps find atonement for themselves as well?

Anonymous Ridip June 26, 2014 8:18 AM  

My own abuse came over 35 years ago and as hard as it is, even today, for me to keep reading about these things that Vox is writing let me offer a little insight from The Word of God.

There is a section of scripture that people mock and take as hyperbole.

8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. 9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. -- Matthew 18:8,9

But what they fail to do is to take it in context. In context this is how a body, a group, or a community should treat the members that would see it destroyed. No I am not talking about Vox Day. Rather, I am talking about the Marion Zimmer Bradleys, the Samuel R. Delaneys, and the Ed Kramers within the group.

"Huh? Where do you get that?", you say?

Context. Context is king. That passage is bookended by two beautiful verses:

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. -- Matthew 18:6

The Greek word that is translate offend here is the word skandalion, to cause to stumble, to scandalize. What is more scandalous than stealing the innocence of a child, than raping their bodies, and poisoning their souls.

And woe unto him who does such things because the trailing verse reads:

Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. -- Matthew 18:10

There is justice, and it is coming. Why should Vox keep digging up these things? Because we live in the days of Jeremiah, in a nation that has fallen from such great heights, one which teeters at the brink of its own destruction, and there is a place "to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant."

Vox keep up the good work. Those of us who were offended and scandalized as children thank you!

Anonymous VD June 26, 2014 8:20 AM  

Vox keep up the good work. Those of us who were offended and scandalized as children thank you!

You are welcome.

Anonymous Not a Fan June 26, 2014 8:21 AM  

I liked Pern, at least until the son started writing, but the sex always seemed rapey and the dragonriders and nobles were always too 'I am god, you are clod'.

I didn't like any of the other rapist/writers works. Kind of wish now I didn't like Pern at all.

Thank you for bring all this to light. This should have been made public 20 years ago, and every last one of them banned. Awards stripped, book out of print, not allowed in any convention, parents warned, totally shunned.

Anonymous Anonymous June 26, 2014 8:24 AM  

Molesters threaten children, which most rabbits will never have anyway.

Anonymous Jeigh Di June 26, 2014 8:25 AM  

Remember, these are the same people that argue that abortion should be freely available because abortion is always preferable to having a neglected or abused child.

Blogger IM2L844 June 26, 2014 8:42 AM  

Obviously, liberal outrage is cherry-picked and rigorously binary. If Vox is holds position X, they can't possibly allow anyone to think they enthusiastically agree with him on it even if they know they should and quietly do because that would betray the notion that Vox is the consummate antithesis of everything they believe is true and right. Better to batten down the hatches and do a distracting deflection dance.

Anonymous Roundtine June 26, 2014 9:05 AM  

Also, a bit of a tangent but has "trigger warning" become just a "major drama ahead" traffic sign?

Trigger warning means what you see may cause emotional reactions so powerful that you cannot control yourself. You may break down into tears, fly into a rage, eat a bag of Doritos, or do all three simultaneously.

Anonymous The other skeptic June 26, 2014 9:10 AM  

but consider all of the art we’ll never see and books we’ll never read because the young people who might have wanted to make them someday ran screaming from this community.

Isn't this like saying we must make women welcome in STEM fields because otherwise we are missing out on the potential contributions of half the human race?

Anonymous trev006 June 26, 2014 9:13 AM  

Two of Delany's characters are named Nigg and Dago? WOW! I think even the most hardcore racists would say the symbolism stands for obviousness, but then I'm not an award-winning author.

Watching the SFWA accuse Vox of forgery is absolutely wild, though. It shows that the problem within their ranks is deep, much worse as a proportion of the leadership than the Catholic Church, and the end is going to be spectacular. I imagine that simply blowing these scandals up in the faces of these miserable degenerates is all anyone needs to stop taking their microaggressions seriously.

Blogger rycamor June 26, 2014 9:16 AM  

It's amazing how these people manage to just keep piling on the stupidity. You would think at least one or two of the anti-Vox cabal might stop and think about what he is saying. It's not going to be at all hard to legally prove Ed Kramer's membership if this whole thing ever turns into an anti-defamation suit or somesuch.

Has even one of these people has said something like "I was not aware of this outrage, I am sorry this ever happened and it should be fixed now?" I think it is pretty safe to assume they knew. You can't be a serious insider without hearing some stories.

Blogger Nate June 26, 2014 9:18 AM  

"What a troll. Never could understand such petty BS. How small his soul must be to run a campaign of destruction of others. - Walter L. Fisher"

Does this statement also apply to The Savage ?

Blogger Nate June 26, 2014 9:24 AM  

In his infamous NAMBLA quote... Delany says how much better his life as an 11 year old boy would have been if NAMBLA had existed back then. The obvious conclusion is obvious. Delany was buggered as an 11 year old... and apparently quite enjoyed it.

Now...

What do we know about the chances of sexually abused kids growing up and becoming abusers themselves? And how much is that probability altered by someone who admits to enjoying the abuse as a child? And one who writes child rape fantasies?

Blogger Cataline Sergius June 26, 2014 9:24 AM  

Sales 101. All motivation ultimately derives from people trying to increase their own sense of their importance. Your idea of status maybe a lot different from someone else's but it's very real to them. No matter how raising that status is accomplished, it is that person’s true need .

SFWA members status is at best built on quicksand. Proper literature views speculative fiction as a lesser genre, after all they have their own status to look after.

The thing is, if a science fiction book goes past a certain undefined point it is suddenly no longer science fiction but literature. 1984, Brave New World, Atlas Shrugged et cetera. Despite clearly being science fiction it's not science fiction anymore.
Everything else remains in the ghetto.

SFWA bridles at this of course but they are powerless to do anything about it.

Delany's fever dreams set to paper briefly caught mainstream critics attention and SFWA rallied around the man in hopes of escaping the gutter. Delany had back to back best novel Nebula wins in the two rather hippy addled years of 67 an 68 for Babel-17 and the Einstein Intersection.

He was still getting kisses and cuddles from literary critics for Dhalgren. But Dhalgren lost out to Forever War. (When it should have lost to The Mote in God's Eye but I digress) Apparently the old guard was pushing back against the New Wave and Haldeman got a compromise win. After a reflex nomination for Triton, Delany went into his well deserved obscurity.

But in Moo-U academic circles he remained irritatingly fashionable. Fast forward to today, SFWA has been feminized by these same B-Team academics, raising status through non-confrontational consensus is everything. And they long ago agreed amongst themselves that Delany was important.

They need Samual R. Delany

Anonymous hygate June 26, 2014 9:27 AM  

I read a great deal of Science Fiction in my youth, but I never had any connection to "fandom."

Thank God.

Anonymous The other skeptic June 26, 2014 9:28 AM  

And the violence inherent in the system becomes obvious in more than one way.

Anonymous Josh June 26, 2014 9:30 AM  

The obvious conclusion is obvious. Delany was buggered as an 11 year old... and apparently quite enjoyed it.

Actually, I think the conclusion that he was buggered at eleven, and felt violated, abused, worthless, at fault, etc. However, he thinks that if nambla had been around back then, he would have felt that buggery was okay.

Anonymous The other skeptic June 26, 2014 9:39 AM  

Actually, I think the conclusion that he was buggered at eleven, and felt violated, abused, worthless, at fault, etc. However, he thinks that if nambla had been around back then, he would have felt that buggery was okay.

I think you are mistaken. He is simply trying to justify his current and long-time obsession with buggering little boys by implying that he had a hard time as an eleven year old boy.

Anonymous Anonymous June 26, 2014 9:42 AM  

Isn't this like saying we must make women welcome in STEM fields because otherwise we are missing out on the potential contributions of half the human race?

No, it's like saying girls who enter STEM fields shouldn't be groomed for deviancy, raped, or tortured. I'm pretty sure this is already the case.

Anonymous Anonymous June 26, 2014 9:52 AM  

In his infamous NAMBLA quote... Delany says how much better his life as an 11 year old boy would have been if NAMBLA had existed back then. The obvious conclusion is obvious. Delany was buggered as an 11 year old... and apparently quite enjoyed it.

That's the standard homosexual claim, though usually they don't openly apply it to children: whatever pain and anguish they feel is not because of the acts themselves, but from keeping it secret and knowing that many people find it repugnant. So if 11-year-old Samuel could have been in a public relationship with his adult boyfriend -- heck, maybe even married him, why not? -- and if people would have applauded them instead of being appalled, then it wouldn't have harmed him at all.

Blogger El Borak June 26, 2014 9:55 AM  

Piers Anthony left SFWA years ago,* which is too bad, because he fits right in which this little theme:

"But this is another bit of evidence of the problem in our society: as far as I know, [Firefly co-author] Santiago Hernandez did not hurt anyone. He just happens to be sexually attracted to small boys. "

Most people might counter that the problem is not Hernandez's attraction to small boys but the fact that he molested a number of them. But hey, this is SF/F. The pedophilia in Anthony's books was put there by Vox to make him look bad.

* ironically because, even then, they were screwing authors on behalf of publishers

Anonymous Toby Temple June 26, 2014 9:57 AM  

Actually, I think the conclusion that he was buggered at eleven, and felt violated, abused, worthless, at fault, etc. However, he thinks that if nambla had been around back then, he would have felt that buggery was okay.

Or that he would have been happily buggered ever after

Anonymous hygate June 26, 2014 10:06 AM  

At this point I'm wondering if any responsible parent would allow their children to attend a convention.

Even pink S/F authors and afficianados insist that they are hotbeds of sexual harrasment. Hence the need for codes of conduct and "safe" spaces. Why would you allow your child to be in such an environement, even sans the newest revelations?

Anonymous RedJack June 26, 2014 10:06 AM  

Didn't realize Piers Anthony was a pederast.

Looking back on it, it does show a bit in his stories.

Anonymous REG June 26, 2014 10:07 AM  

While the war raged, the Nazis were preforming 'Experiments' on Jews in the concentration camps. After the war, many people wanted the results of the experiments made public; because, the knowledge gained would be an advancement of science despite the means of its being obtained. The answer was a resounding "Not only 'NO' but Hell No" To my knowledge said experiments are still locked and sealed. There's a lesson in that for the SFWA.

Anonymous hygate June 26, 2014 10:10 AM  

Note that when it was white guys hitting on women it was a very big problem and steps were taken to address it.

Now? Meh, not so much.

Anonymous RedJack June 26, 2014 10:10 AM  

REG.
Those experiments were not sealed. They just used quietly.

Organ transplants for example.

Anonymous Michael June 26, 2014 10:12 AM  

Speaking of comics and art, notice how the mainstream focuses solely on the same early-to-mid 20th century characters and "universes." Comic book conventions are nothing more than an excuse for lemmings to dress up as their favorite characters and for egotistical industry figures to promote their antiquated creations for the umpteenth time, maybe scribble autograph for several hundred dollars. And, of course, to seek out new licensing deals. But what's most pathetic is how the public endlessly devours this corporate crap.

Anonymous Anonymous June 26, 2014 10:15 AM  

When I was a teen, Piers Anthony was my favorite author: early Xanth, Cluster, Adept, Battle Circle, Pale Horse, and others. I don't remember much actual sex with/between children, but I got to a point where the constant mentions of "panties" (mostly in Xanth, I think) started to creep me out once I was an adult myself. I'm glad I never read Firefly.

Anonymous hygate June 26, 2014 10:15 AM  

Now the horror of book covers with Frank Frazetta paintings on them, that's something to get worked up about.

Steps must be taken!

Blogger rycamor June 26, 2014 10:15 AM  

El Borak June 26, 2014 9:55 AM
Piers Anthony left SFWA years ago,* which is too bad, because he fits right in which this little theme:

"But this is another bit of evidence of the problem in our society: as far as I know, [Firefly co-author] Santiago Hernandez did not hurt anyone. He just happens to be sexually attracted to small boys. "


Whew... for a moment I thought this had something to do with the TV show Firefly.

The names just keep adding up. Seriously, this last couple weeks has been a major revelation to me. In all my sci-fi reading, I can only recall heppening on one short story by a now-forgotten author that even hinted at pedophilia. I was mostly into classic or hard sci-fi, not the navel-gazing psych crap that started coming out in th 70s, and very little of the fantasy, so maybe that's why I missed this.

Blogger CarpeOro June 26, 2014 10:21 AM  

Reading the brief description of Delany's book Hogg nearly made me ill. The SFWA has devolved so much from the original that may as well stand for Sick F* Wankers of America. If any of the early members are involved, I'd tell them to leave rather than tarnish their reputations by associating with the current sick organization. When an organization gets to the point that they want to expunge you (as they do the saner elements), I'd say it is time to leave. There is nothing left to salvage.

Anonymous Susan June 26, 2014 10:21 AM  

Nate, in answer to your question, in all the reports I have read about studies done on molesters, convicted or otherwise, kids who were abused by molestation, especially by a family member, are highly likely to pass the nightmare of having been molested on to others, themselves being the molester. Sometimes those kids even start molesting others as soon as they hit puberty. This is just a sick, sick cycle that needs some sunlight shone on it.

Anonymous takin' a look June 26, 2014 10:24 AM  

" cailcorishev June 26, 2014 10:15 AM

When I was a teen, Piers Anthony was my favorite author: early Xanth, Cluster, Adept, Battle Circle, Pale Horse, and others. I don't remember much actual sex with/between children, but I got to a point where the constant mentions of "panties" (mostly in Xanth, I think) started to creep me out once I was an adult myself. I'm glad I never read Firefly."

Don't read it, don't even click the link, it is like reading "A Serbian Movie" it's just horrifying what is in the perverted old man's head.

"rycamor June 26, 2014 10:15 AM

....The names just keep adding up......"

Yes they do, He may not be a SWFA member, but geezus, there is something seriously WRONG with a lot of these folks!

Anonymous The other skeptic June 26, 2014 10:28 AM  

Nate, in answer to your question, in all the reports I have read about studies done on molesters, convicted or otherwise, kids who were abused by molestation, especially by a family member, are highly likely to pass the nightmare of having been molested on to others,

Which screams genes ...

Blogger rycamor June 26, 2014 10:33 AM  

The other skeptic June 26, 2014 10:28 AM
Nate, in answer to your question, in all the reports I have read about studies done on molesters, convicted or otherwise, kids who were abused by molestation, especially by a family member, are highly likely to pass the nightmare of having been molested on to others,

Which screams genes ...


How? Seems to me it screams environment even louder.

Blogger El Borak June 26, 2014 10:34 AM  

rycamor: I was mostly into classic or hard sci-fi...

Me, too, though I'll admit I even gave up on Heinlein once he started justifying incest (e.g. Farnham's Freehold and Number of the Beast, which was the last 'new' book of his I read). I don't consider anything he did in the 80s either hard or classic. I was able to look past Ludmilla's "lovely, little girl breasts" in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, but his obsession with sexual taboo seemed to grow after that and he lost me. I'm amazed that our modern authors hate him so much. Apparently their opposition to (purported) racism exceeds their support of child molesters. Who knew?

Thought I have bursts in which I write Fantasy stories, I'll admit I have read (well, haven't enjoyed) anything modern in the genre but Raymond Feist (I enjoyed the Riftwar Saga no little bit) and Saberhagen. Those charged with promoting the genre have rotted it from the inside out.

Anonymous Harsh June 26, 2014 10:39 AM  

Note that when it was white guys hitting on women it was a very big problem and steps were taken to address it.

Now? Meh, not so much.


Of course. Normal sex is in the process of being outlawed while at the same time perversion is celebrated.

Anonymous Heh June 26, 2014 10:39 AM  

Coprophiliac Hogg violates women for pay.

Somehow my high school guidance counselor failed to mention that career path...

Anonymous Krul June 26, 2014 10:40 AM  

Susan -
kids who were abused by molestation, especially by a family member, are highly likely to pass the nightmare of having been molested on to others, themselves being the molester.

W. H. Auden -
I and the public know
What all schoolchildren learn,
Those to whom evil is done
Do evil in return.

Anonymous Heh June 26, 2014 10:42 AM  

I too tried to read Dhalgren back in the late 1970s. It stunk. Couldn't finish it.

Anonymous Hunsdon June 26, 2014 10:43 AM  

el Borak: Thanks. You pretty much just destroyed my childhood, but it's better to know than to live in blissful ignorance.

Blogger Anthony June 26, 2014 10:44 AM  

but consider all of the art we’ll never see and books we’ll never read because the young people who might have wanted to make them someday ran screaming from this community.

Isn't this like saying we must make women welcome in STEM fields because otherwise we are missing out on the potential contributions of half the human race?

Yes and no. There's a difference between not preventing a woman from going into STEM and not harassing her when she's there, and actively pushing women to go into a field they're not very interested in. Someone who comes to an SF con is very interested in the field. Not all of them will become writers (or editors or con-runners, etc.), but some will, and chasing them away is bad for the field.

Blogger rycamor June 26, 2014 10:44 AM  

Since reading Hodgson's "The Night Land" recently I am struck by the hypocrisy of modern writers. They tend to point and shriek about Hodgson's "misogyny" because the male hero disciplines the heroine for bad behavior (mildly and in a non-sexual way), yet they will talk themselves in circles to excuse the vile filth we find written by Delaney, Piers Anthony and who knows what other writers in SF/Fantasy history.

Sheesh... I'm starting to think we need a list. I have two children who have reached heavy-reading age. Certain things must be kept from them.

Blogger Chiva June 26, 2014 10:46 AM  

"Which screams genes ..."

More likely the higher level of access through family connections, and the unwillingness of families to confront another "valued" member of the family.

Blogger thimscool June 26, 2014 10:49 AM  

What a wretched spectacle. I feel like I'm gawking at a grisly car accident.

Nevertheless, air and sunlight disinfect, what what.

Blogger rycamor June 26, 2014 10:51 AM  

El Borak June 26, 2014 10:34 AM
rycamor: I was mostly into classic or hard sci-fi...

Me, too, though I'll admit I even gave up on Heinlein once he started justifying incest (e.g. Farnham's Freehold and Number of the Beast, which was the last 'new' book of his I read).


Yeah, I didn't discover this side of Heinlein until I was in my 20s, thankfully. "Stranger in a Strange Land" was bad enough, but "The Number of the Beast" did it for me. Haven't read any Heinlein since. Heinlein didn't directly portray pedophilia, but I guess the hints were there.

Anonymous ivvenalis June 26, 2014 10:52 AM  

@Res: the experiments were generally made public, I think some concerning the effects of chemical warfare agents were classified. The data on the effects of temperature extremes is the most commonly encountered.

Blogger El Borak June 26, 2014 10:55 AM  

rycamor Heinlein didn't directly portray pedophilia, but I guess the hints were there.

Agreed. Though, I shudder think what his work might have looked like had he lived another 50 years.

Anonymous Daniel June 26, 2014 10:56 AM  

If you think "fandom" doesn't value their precious conventions more than the lives of children, read this attack on Ed Kramer's whistleblower.

Take the kids, but leave the convention alone! The people who walk away from the NamBULAs are rare indeed.

Blogger Anthony June 26, 2014 11:01 AM  

Nate, in answer to your question, in all the reports I have read about studies done on molesters, convicted or otherwise, kids who were abused by molestation, especially by a family member, are highly likely to pass the nightmare of having been molested on to others,

Which screams genes ...

Perhaps. If there actually is a difference between children molested by their biological parents versus those molested by step-parents or authority figures (or other non-biological family), then I'd agree it's likely genetic. But has that actually been studied?

Anonymous Huckleberry -- Hopelessly Provincial June 26, 2014 11:04 AM  

I am a little surprised. This is usually the point in a controversy where @scalzi bravely runs away, hunkering down with a month's worth of guest posts and cat videos on Whatever
But it really seems like he's cool with going down with the ship this time.

Blogger Anthony June 26, 2014 11:07 AM  

rycamor - the later Heinlein seemed much more interested in pubescent girls. I didn't get any hint that he was pedophilic (or portraying pedophiles). Rather, he was interested in girls old enough that you couldn't conceivably make the excuse that "they don't have erogenous zones at that age". It's still creepy, and the incest themes were, too, but there's a big difference between liking a 15-year-old and liking a 10-year-old.

Anonymous rycamor June 26, 2014 11:15 AM  

Heinlein was all for exploring any fetish that interested you, and he even felt that if you were not gay but a gay friend made a pass at you, that you owed it to him to let him have a go up your rear--at least once. Yeah, he brought that up at least a couple times.

Anonymous hygate June 26, 2014 11:17 AM  

So, two old white guys have an article published in the SF bulletin reminincing about the "old days" in SF publishing were they refer to a woman editor as a "lady" and they are loudley and publicly denounced by the SFWA community.

A black author whose work is no longer widely read and who publicly supports an organization dedicated to legalizing pedeophilia recieves SFWA's highest honor.

Just want to make sure I understand the situation.

Anonymous VD June 26, 2014 11:25 AM  

A black author whose work is no longer widely read and who publicly supports an organization dedicated to legalizing pedeophilia recieves SFWA's highest honor.

That is correct. Although you could say "a black author whose work celebrating violent homosexual pedophilia is no longer read etc."

Anonymous takin' a look June 26, 2014 11:28 AM  

"Anthony June 26, 2014 11:01 AM

Perhaps. If there actually is a difference between children molested by their biological parents versus those molested by step-parents or authority figures (or other non-biological family), then I'd agree it's likely genetic. But has that actually been studied?"

Yes, Step-parents are much more likely to abuse their step-children than biological parents vis a vis biological children. It's known as the "cinderella effect" and in every form of abuse, step children are at vastly greater risk than biological children, even within the same household.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinderella_effect

Among biological parents, women are much more abusive towards their own children than men.

Anonymous Anonymous June 26, 2014 11:33 AM  

I've asked this question before, and I'll ask it again: if you had no idea about the character of the author, would the work stand on its own? And if we ask people to judge Vox's work despite how they feel about the man, should we do the same for The Mists of Avalon? Remember, they feel Vox's evil far outweighs MZB's. Stop laughing, I think they are truly that deluded.

Note well: I am not asking this for Hogg, which is a book I would never want to even encounter in any venue. And it based on the Wikipedia entry, I would never touch Dhalgren, either, but not because of what it is about. I simply don't like literary "experiments" that are only meant to be understood by the "smart" people.

Anonymous VD June 26, 2014 11:36 AM  

I've asked this question before, and I'll ask it again: if you had no idea about the character of the author, would the work stand on its own?

I thought Bradley sucked long before I knew anything about her. I bought Mists of Avalon and never finished it, which is very rare for me. I read two different Darkover novels, one of them being Heritage of Hastur, and didn't like either one of them.

Anonymous hygate June 26, 2014 11:39 AM  

That is correct. Although you could say "a black author whose work celebrating violent homosexual pedophilia is no longer read etc.

So we should soon be seeing large numbers of SFWA members exiting the organization in disgust? Right?

Anonymous hygate June 26, 2014 11:42 AM  

Cause surely they wouldn't want to be associated with an organization that has someone like that not only belong to it, but celebrated as well?

Right?

Blogger JaimeInTexas June 26, 2014 11:42 AM  

VD: Do you think that spotlighting these authors, for the child molesters and enablers of child molesters the SFWA leadership seem to be, would have occurred if it wasn't for your expulsion from SFWA? Like the biblical account of Joseph, what men meant for evil, God meant for good?

Anonymous Harsh June 26, 2014 11:44 AM  

Cause surely they wouldn't want to be associated with an organization that has someone like that not only belong to it, but celebrated as well?

I believe Delany was honored as an SFWA grand master although he's not an actual member of the organization. That may seem like splitting hairs but we should keep the facts straight.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 26, 2014 11:45 AM  

Isn't this like saying we must make women welcome in STEM fields because otherwise we are missing out on the potential contributions of half the human race?

No, it's more like saying if we let feminist stupidity drive men out of colleges, we'll miss out on the contributions of future trained engineers who never got the degree.


Note that when it was white guys hitting on women it was a very big problem and steps were taken to address it.

Well clearly grown women are more defenseless than 11 year old boys or even 3 year old girls.

Blogger Cataline Sergius June 26, 2014 11:46 AM  

The rumor about Heinlein's lesser works, is that he was trying to generate some controversy so his sales would be bigger. The story was that he was mostly worried about what would happen to his wife when he died.

I don't know if that story is true or not.

Anonymous Anonymous June 26, 2014 11:48 AM  

Vox, the other directors of Dragon*Con don't deserve nearly as much credit as you're giving them for cutting ties with Kramer. Follow the money. They claimed for years that they couldn't terminate his interest as a shareholder, so he kept getting his cut of convention profits -- and yet they suddenly found a way to do it once the fan boycott reached the boiling point last summer and threatened to impact the bottom line.

Anonymous hygate June 26, 2014 11:49 AM  

I believe Delany was honored as an SFWA grand master although he's not an actual member of the organization. That may seem like splitting hairs but we should keep the facts straight.

I thank you for the correction.

And it occurs to me that that makes it even worse. They went out of their way to honor him, even though he doesn't belong to SFWA.

I would have thought belonging to SFWA would be a requirement for being granted Grand Master status, unless the author died before the SFWA was formed.

Blogger rycamor June 26, 2014 11:52 AM  

Just came across this article in the Atheism section on patheos.com The Grand (Dirty) Old Men of Science Fiction.

"Heller goes on to talk about some of the unjustified pedophilic overtones of Antony’s other works. Honestly, this is small potatoes. Anthony’s works frequently feature rape, S&M, bizarre fetishes, bad science and bad psychology. Off the top of my head:"

Got that? Read more. You'll see that the true unforgivable sin is "misogyny". Pedophilia is just small potatoes.

Atheists against bad science and bad psychology, FTW.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 26, 2014 11:54 AM  

I've asked this question before, and I'll ask it again: if you had no idea about the character of the author, would the work stand on its own?

I've never liked the work of any of the pedos under discussion here, not even Piers Anthony. And as a few folks have mentioned, Heinlein's quality seemed to go down hill the more he indulged in fetish writing. Having some knowledge of how addiction works, I suspect when writers 'let their freak flag fly' it creates a sort of tunnel vision where their brain locks onto the fetish and can't pay more than minor attention to the other aspects of the story. If you're into the fetish, the writing may be great. If you're not, it's at best dull even if it's not - like Hogg - outright sickening.

Anonymous Anonymous June 26, 2014 12:15 PM  

Yes, Step-parents are much more likely to abuse their step-children than biological parents vis a vis biological children.

That wasn't the question, though. The quote implied that children who were molested by a family member are more likely to go on to be molesters themselves than children who were molested by a non-family member. It wasn't completely clear, but that's what it seemed to be saying.

If that's true, it could be genes. It could also be a sort of culture of keeping family secrets secret no matter what. That could still be genetic, but not in the direct sense of passing on a "molester gene." But it could also mean that being molested by a family member screws you up more than being molested by someone else, which seems like a reasonable possibility too.

Anonymous rho June 26, 2014 12:17 PM  

I've asked this question before, and I'll ask it again: if you had no idea about the character of the author, would the work stand on its own?

People do this all the time. I liked X2 before I knew anything about Bryan Singer's proclivities. I still like the movie. Same with Heinlein, who was a bit of a perv himself.

The folks on the left would do themselves a great favor by, instead of defending those in their ranks who have committed heinous acts, separate those individuals from their ranks and see that they get the help they need. That is what many on the left advocate, right? Rehabilitation over punishment?

They don't, or rather can't, because their moral compass points to twelve different poles. Whichever direction they're already headed is conveniently where their compass leads them. This they pass off as highly principled behavior when it's really just aimless narcissism.

It's quite easy to fall into this trap. Children do this constantly. And, like children, they shun those who point this out.

Blogger rycamor June 26, 2014 12:21 PM  

My list so far:

Writers who directly or indirectly portray pedophilia as acceptable:

Samuel Delany
Piers Antony
Robert Heinlein (mildly)


Writers who were directly responsible for child sexual abuse:

Marion Zimmer Bradley
Walter Breen
Arthur C. Clark (not conclusive but there are serious questions re: Sri Lanka)


Other members of the SF/Fantasy community responsible for such abuse:

Ed Kramer
Brian Singer, director of X-Men
[countless other Hollywood directors and actors...]



Any others anyone here can recall?

Anonymous takin' a look June 26, 2014 12:30 PM  

" cailcorishev June 26, 2014 12:15 PM"

You have a very good point, as far as I know, no studies have been done thus far to compare and contrast.

Incidentally, abused step-children are lumped in with biological children in most american statistics on abuse, just like hispanic criminals are lumped in with whites. It is very obvious why.

Anonymous Anonymous June 26, 2014 12:33 PM  

I have two children who have reached heavy-reading age. Certain things must be kept from them.

I've been thinking about that too (no kids myself, but influence on some). I first read the Covenant books when I was 16. Was I really ready for Lena's rape at that age, and then Elena's attempt to give herself to Covenant (actually, I'm not sure I even understood that part then)? Would I give those books to a 16-year-old today? Maybe. It'd depend on the kid, but I wouldn't do it without some discussion of those topics.

But I certainly wouldn't give a kid a SFBC membership and let him run with it like I did. Or a library card. One book I remember getting from my library as a kid was a Piers Anthony anthology of stories (Anthonology?) that had some pretty twisted stuff in it, including one story where human women were being milked like dairy cows in an alternate universe.

Blogger Feather Blade June 26, 2014 12:36 PM  

1984, Brave New World, Atlas Shrugged

One has to wonder about a person who reads dystopian literature and, rather than seeing it for the dire warning that it is, says "Yes! A blueprint for the perfect society! I've been wanting one of these!"

Blogger CarpeOro June 26, 2014 12:40 PM  

I had no idea about Piers Anthony's predilections. I read the first several Xanth novels a few decades ago and lost interest at some point. I had a hard time trimming my book collection down when moving a few years ago, but I don't recall his even being present at that point. I am talking several hundred books as I seldom got rid of them once read. Ones I enjoyed I'd loan to friends.

Anonymous jack June 26, 2014 12:40 PM  

@VD
I thought Bradley sucked long before I knew anything about her. I bought Mists of Avalon and never finished it, which is very rare for me.

Yeah. I recently dove into Spinward Origens by Lalonde. A damn good story idea, though the prose and story plot left something to be desired. At least as far as I got. The first several chapters had a lot of female energy, in a war time setting, and PC stuff which gave me my suspicions. When the trainee captain Valent felt he had to hug his chief engineer [female and the admirals daughter] to stop an emotional breakdown is where the author lost me. I deleted the darn thing from my Kindle and mourned the several dollars spent on it.
Needless to say Mr. Lalonde won't be getting any more of my money.

Anonymous VD June 26, 2014 12:52 PM  

Do you think that spotlighting these authors, for the child molesters and enablers of child molesters the SFWA leadership seem to be, would have occurred if it wasn't for your expulsion from SFWA?

If I didn't know about it, I think a few people like Deidre and others would have mentioned it and it would have promptly been ignored, just as Jason Sanford was ignored when he wrote about Kramer back in February.

I didn't know about these things despite belonging to SFWA because I don't go to cons, I didn't read the Forum, and I don't associate with any of these people. Had I not decided to run for office, then gotten kicked out, I might never have known about the pattern of problems, and therefore a number of other people would not have learned about it.

But who knows? Perhaps someone else would have picked up the slack. Sarah has addressed it now, and other people are beginning to pay attention.

Anonymous GreyS June 26, 2014 12:59 PM  

More ham-fisted dumbness from SFWA, Gould, Scalzi and Hines. Genius solution-- scrub the guy's name from the registry, add snide comments about those who criticize, and hope it all goes away. Idiots.

Anonymous Anonymous June 26, 2014 1:06 PM  

I haven't kept up with the SF/F community, as it were, for the better part of 20 years. I've been writing my stories, and I finally put them up on Amazon (with some encouragement from the indomitable Sarah Hoyt), and my biggest concern was whether or not to put them in the juvenile as well as the adult fantasy category. After all, in one of my books there is an attempted rape (and for what it's worth, it was a woman attempting to rape a man), and in another my main character hears a rape occurring (more traditional rape rape).

Now I realize that my stories are just too tame. I'm going to have to be a lot more sexually graphic (and deviant) if I ever want to win an award. Or I could just keep trying to write good, solid stories. Tough decision.

Blogger rycamor June 26, 2014 1:08 PM  

Another charming story, not directly involving SF writers, although Humphries (AKA Dame Edna) did appear in "The Hobbit": Barry Humphries views on ‘benevolent pedophilia’.

(Appropriately, he was the Goblin King)

Anonymous HHLL June 26, 2014 1:19 PM  

The same sort of people who are quick to get all "now let's not become mindlessly judgemental here" in regards to the MZBs and the Delanys and Anthonys of the field are often the same sort of folks in the SF/F community who will declare a novelist to be the biggest misogynist fedora-clad dudebro 4channer Racefail-ing racist rapey rape supporter from Patriarchytown for writing a mildly awkward sex scene between a man and a woman, being accused of "exotic orientalism" or dozens of other inane reasons, I recall there was a minor online kerfuffle a few years ago after an alt-history novel was published where no humans had settled the Americas and thus, among other things thus, among other things, the anecstors of Native Americans nover crossed the Land Bridge or however it was done and members of the Social Justice Brigade were quick to claim this detail was a racist act of genocidal Native American "erasure". That's the sort of thing that gets these peoples' collective dander up, a choice of word, a depiction of historical details they don't care for because it doesn't jibe with their own ignorant Cliff Notes understanding of a past time and place, etc. and they'll hurl the accusations quickly
But hey, MZB wrote some books they liked so let's not be too hasty to pass judgement here!

Anonymous Krul June 26, 2014 1:38 PM  

HHLL -
The same sort of people who are quick to get all "now let's not become mindlessly judgemental here" in regards to the MZBs and the Delanys and Anthonys of the field are often the same sort of folks in the SF/F community who will declare a novelist to be the biggest misogynist... etc

True. Reminds me of this:

Ayn Rand -
In literature, we are shown a line-up of murderers, dipsomaniacs, drug addicts, neurotics and psychotics as representatives of man’s soul—and are invited to identify our own among them—... with the whining injunctions that we must love everything, except virtue, and forgive everything, except greatness.

"love everything, except virtue, and forgive everything, except greatness"... It's a good description of the perspective evinced by one side of this discussion, isn't it?

Anonymous MendoScot June 26, 2014 2:12 PM  

As for the rest, well, necrophiliacs need lovin' too.

That's ironic, given the new revelations about Jimmy Savile (NSFS).

The inquiry just drips with self-congratulatory smugness, as if investigating his fifty year reign of abuse somehow means others aren't continuing to do it.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 26, 2014 2:25 PM  

More ham-fisted dumbness from SFWA, Gould, Scalzi and Hines. Genius solution-- scrub the guy's name from the registry, add snide comments about those who criticize, and hope it all goes away. Idiots.

The decent thing for SFWA to say: "We've removed Kramer from our registry and will no longer be associated with him because his actions are not acceptable in decent society. This is a step we should have taken long ago, but in the spirit of better late than never, we are taking it now."

The dishonest thing for SFWA to say: "Kramer? What Kramer? I don't see any Kramer. Vox is lying."

The honest thing for SFWA to say: "I wish people would stop noticing how perverted we are. I don't understand why they don't just leave us alone. Now, where did I put those heels and that slip?"

Anonymous Gdeck Bob June 26, 2014 2:34 PM  

When I was younger (late teens, early twenties), I always looked forward to the next issues of Fantasy & Science Fiction and Analog. After reading, I kept them neatly arranged on a library shelf until I had quite a collection of them.

As I recall, Analog rather suddenly dropped off my buy/read/keep list, followed a couple years layer by F&SF. I have always attributed this to my maturing beyond the desire to read the stuff, but now I think perhaps it was because the stories turned to shit and now I see why.

Last thing I remember reading completely was "the stainless steel rat" series, and that seemed pretty juvenile.

I tried a few more recent offerings but tossed them away as nothing more than soft porn in a spaceship setting for frustrated and/or adolescent females.

Absolutely nothing since in the last twenty/twenty five years.. I haven't even tried to read any of the authors and stories recommended here

That's how much these "modern" authors and their trash stories turned me away.

Not that it matters.

Anonymous Soga June 26, 2014 2:36 PM  

And suddenly, it all becomes clear why McRapey dressed up in women's clothing.

Anonymous DrTorch June 26, 2014 2:46 PM  

Again I point out that Neil Gaiman had a lot of things going on in his Sandman comics, including child molestation connected w/ conventions.

Does this go beyond SF publishing? Certainly John Irving has more than a few disturbing scenes to his credit.

When I was in HS, our French teacher had a young son (maybe 1-2 y.o. when I was a freshman). There were times when she was inches from a nervous breakdown, and while I'm sure we were challenging students, none of our other teachers reached that point.

Her son grows up to be salutatorian, and heads to UMich on scholarship. He's kicked out as a freshman for kiddie porn on his computer. After therapy, he enters the workforce. He's arrested in DC a few years later b/c of kiddie porn on his computer.

Did I mention his father publishes detective novels?

Blogger SQT June 26, 2014 3:15 PM  

I read a lot of Piers Anthony when I was in my early teens, at a time when I was too young to really understand most of the sexual overtones. But there was always a part of me that was uncomfortable with his apparent comfort with ideas that touched on deviant sex (incest and pedophilia seems to be, in hindsight, his favorite themes). Oddly it was the constant depictions of nudity (Adept series) that killed off my interest-- odd because it was most likely tame compared to most of his other stuff. Thank goodness I never read "Tatham Mound" or "Firefly."

Anonymous Scintan June 26, 2014 3:21 PM  

I read a lot of Piers Anthony when I was in my early teens, at a time when I was too young to really understand most of the sexual overtones. But there was always a part of me that was uncomfortable with his apparent comfort with ideas that touched on deviant sex (incest and pedophilia seems to be, in hindsight, his favorite themes). Oddly it was the constant depictions of nudity (Adept series) that killed off my interest-- odd because it was most likely tame compared to most of his other stuff. Thank goodness I never read "Tatham Mound" or "Firefly."

Anthony's work is fine. If you're going to burn witches, make sure they're actually witches before you light the fire.

Anonymous Daniel June 26, 2014 3:36 PM  

My additions in bold.

Writers who directly or indirectly portray pedophilia as acceptable:
Marion Zimmer Bradley - The Catch Trap centered on the romantic and sexual relationship between an adult male trapeze artist and a fourteen-year old boy. Written in the late 40s, published in the 1960s around the time she married Breen and wrote I Am A Lesbian.
Philip Jose Farmer
Samuel Delany
Piers Antony
Robert Heinlein (mildly)
Here's my controversial contribution: Clarke in Childhood's End portrays the children as evolving upward so that they no longer maintain each individual's identity, but become a superbeing, subservient to the Overmind. It is ultimately a book worthy of Aleister Crowley.


Writers who were directly responsible for child sexual abuse:

Marion Zimmer Bradley
Walter Breen
Arthur C. Clark (not conclusive but there are serious questions re: Sri Lanka My note: Only because Rupert Murdoch and Clarke were friends, and Murdoch ensured those stories were never confirmed in print. I'm convinced that the questions have been answered convincingly. Clarke's harem was no joke.)
Ed Kramer should be listed here, too. He's written and edited a number of books. That's how he earned SFWA status in the first place.


Other members of the SF/Fantasy community responsible for such abuse:

Ed Kramer
Brian Singer, director of X-Men
[countless other Hollywood directors and actors...]



Any others anyone here can recall?

Anonymous Scintan June 26, 2014 3:39 PM  

My additions in bold.

This sort of crap is why I hate these witch hunts.

Anonymous Daniel June 26, 2014 3:43 PM  

NB: In 2000 McRapey wrote this about Elmo dolls:

"The red, squirmy dolls were disturbing enough to begin with — watch the thing giggle and writhe when you poke it and you can’t help but think that this is what methadone for pedophiles looks like."

Recently, it was discovered that the voice and puppeteer of Elmo was, in fact, a pedophile. So clearly McRapey's PedONAR is fully functional, years ahead of time. Wonder why it went on the fritz at DragonCon?

Anonymous Daniel June 26, 2014 3:44 PM  

This sort of crap is why I hate these witch hunts.

Why? You don't like finding witches?

Blogger SQT June 26, 2014 4:06 PM  

@Scintan-- Your idea of "fine" is not the same of mine. I'm not looking to conduct a witch hunt -- or burn any books. I'm just mentioning the increasing discomfort I had with Anthony's work as I got older and began to better understand what I was reading. It appears (according to some comments upthread) that a lot of other people share my opinion.

Anonymous Scintan June 26, 2014 4:25 PM  

Why? You don't like finding witches?

You're not finding witches. You're claiming to find witches.

There's a big difference there.

Anonymous Scintan June 26, 2014 4:26 PM  

@Scintan-- Your idea of "fine" is not the same of mine. I'm not looking to conduct a witch hunt -- or burn any books. I'm just mentioning the increasing discomfort I had with Anthony's work as I got older and began to better understand what I was reading. It appears (according to some comments upthread) that a lot of other people share my opinion.

Yeah... I'm not buying it. Not even for a tiny second. I know too many human beings to buy this line.

Blogger rycamor June 26, 2014 4:37 PM  

Scintan, I'm just looking to protect my children, seeing as I was clueless about much of this. Previously the only one I had heard of was the vague allegations about Clark.

HOWEVER...

Anyone who is on record as defending pedophilia in writing deserves the full witch hunt treatment AS A WRITER. That much should be obvious.

Blogger SQT June 26, 2014 4:46 PM  

@Scintan-- Ok..... I'm not even sure what your issue is. The fact that I find Anthony's writing problematic is something I am entirely entitled to do. The only action I will take is to not let my kids read his work. If you want to turn that into a "witch hunt" be my guest. There are plenty of other people who have used much stronger language than I have to denounce Anthony-- it's hardly a new topic of conversation.

What exactly is your overall complaint? My comments about Anthony or the larger discussion regarding MZB, Kramer and Delany? I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from.

Anonymous takin' a look June 26, 2014 4:46 PM  

"Soga June 26, 2014 2:36 PM

And suddenly, it all becomes clear why McRapey dressed up in women's clothing."

Probably a subconscious rejection of the pedo-bear filth he is surrounded by....Look at what Daniel quotes

"Daniel June 26, 2014 3:43 PM

NB: In 2000 McRapey wrote this about Elmo dolls:

"The red, squirmy dolls were disturbing enough to begin with — watch the thing giggle and writhe when you poke it and you can’t help but think that this is what methadone for pedophiles looks like."

He's clearly uncomfortable about something.....Not within himself, but what he is surrounded by...

Recently, it was discovered that the voice and puppeteer of Elmo was, in fact, a pedophile. So clearly McRapey's PedONAR is fully functional, years ahead of time. Wonder why it went on the fritz at DragonCon?"

What's the saying? "Nothing so focuses a man like his livelihood"

Not defending the man, but there is no indication he is a pedobear, but EVERY indication he at the very least knows damn well SFWA has a crapload of very, very Sick Fucks and he doesn't know how to deal with it. Ah well, his problem!

I wonder what the "talented tenth, whitebread, picket fences" SFF queers are making of this? (You know what i mean, the non-converted "born this way", "normal hetero upbringing" "stepford wives/modern family" types with little adopted Lin or Mbeke."We are just like Heteros who are barren" types)





Anonymous Scintan June 26, 2014 4:50 PM  

Anyone who is on record as defending pedophilia in writing deserves the full witch hunt treatment AS A WRITER. That much should be obvious.

That's ridiculous.

And I'm saying that as nicely as I can.

Anonymous takin' a look June 26, 2014 4:50 PM  

Scintan, Really? I mean REALLY, REALLY?!?! This isn't a witch-hunt like Salem (which was a bunch of dramz-filled grrls which the Big-Wig Town masters used to their advantage, until one of the girls named a Big-Wig's wife). This is based on court records and quotes and written works and obvious cover ups and "pretended ignorance"

Anonymous Scintan June 26, 2014 4:53 PM  

What exactly is your overall complaint? My comments about Anthony or the larger discussion regarding MZB, Kramer and Delany? I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from.

I'm not buying the magical, mystical discovery of inappropriateness. I rank it right up the with the whole "He had a woman who was was either beautiful/stupid or ugly/smart, therefore he's a misogynist" approach taken by feminists.

Anonymous takin' a look June 26, 2014 4:55 PM  

What about stupid/ugly?

Anonymous Josh June 26, 2014 4:59 PM  

What about stupid/ugly?

No, see, those are the feminists.

Anonymous Scintan June 26, 2014 5:04 PM  

Scintan, Really? I mean REALLY, REALLY?!?! This isn't a witch-hunt like Salem

Really. And yes it is.

Blogger SQT June 26, 2014 5:09 PM  

I'm not buying the magical, mystical discovery of inappropriateness. I rank it right up the with the whole "He had a woman who was was either beautiful/stupid or ugly/smart, therefore he's a misogynist" approach taken by feminists.

Ah. Well, there's nothing I can do about whether you believe me or not.

I was a 14-year-old girl when I started reading his books and a lot of it was over my head. It's like going back and watching "Grease" and catching all of the sexual innuendo you missed when you saw it as a kid. I'm sure plenty of people can relate to that.

Most authors I go back and re-read as an adult don't make me uncomfortable. Anthony does. There's really nothing more to it than that.

Anonymous takin' a look June 26, 2014 5:11 PM  

"MendoScot June 26, 2014 2:12 PM

That's ironic, given the new revelations about Jimmy Savile (NSFS).

The inquiry just drips with self-congratulatory smugness, as if investigating his fifty year reign of abuse somehow means others aren't continuing to do it."

Agreed MendoScot. For the rest of the Ilk, to understand just how HUGE the Jimmy Savile deal is in the UK, imagine a media figure in the USA with the combined power of Johnny Carson, Ed Sullivan, Charlie Rose, Hugh Downes, Dave Chappelle, Baba Wawa, Helen Thomas and decant that all in one "Jimmy'll fix it!" package. Oh and he was also an intelligence agent.

For decades, this "man" was the "It boy" He had close ties with ALL the British top Hierarchies, that includes the Royal Family.

You can easily google "Aangirfan" and use their search engine to discover all those ties, they are deep and extensive. At last count, over 500 victims of his, male and female have come forward, "M" and Scotland Yard and the BBC have pictures, videos and documentation of him raping people for the last 40 years, they sat on it.

Jimmy Savile was also a "fixer" for other high-ranking pedophiles, both at home and abroad.

Anonymous REG June 26, 2014 5:14 PM  

"RedJack June 26, 2014 10:10 AM

REG.
Those experiments were not sealed. They just used quietly.

Organ transplants for example."

Perhaps, I don't have access to the files to know if they were opened or not. If others like you do have knowledge I don't that would be no surprise to me. There's whole warehouses full of knowledge I don't have. The idea that they were used 'quietly' is very possible. However, publicly, the experiments were condemned.

If SFWA had been willing to condemn the lot publicly and still speak of them quietly as a 'person with many inner demons (or other rot) but had made many contributions to 'rights'' it would not have became a very loud point of controversy today.

Anonymous takin' a look June 26, 2014 5:17 PM  

Scintan June 26, 2014 5:04 PM

"Scintan, Really? I mean REALLY, REALLY?!?! This isn't a witch-hunt like Salem

Really. And yes it is."

Pray tell, how so? So far as I've seen, there are no people being dragged into the town square or court house, no one has been killed or tortured, perhaps a loss of revenue from would be consumers now informed, but no existing estates have been seized by the Ilk, No wild accusations taken as word of law and enforced as such.

Try again.

Anonymous MUltan June 26, 2014 5:21 PM  

The ironic thing is that with the exception of Dhalgren and Hogg (both unreadable) Delany has almost no explicit sex scenes in his work, less than late-period Heinlein, which had lots of orgies and incest, and nothing as explicit as Gene Wolfe's "The Knight" (IIRC - perhaps the sequel) which gratuitously - especially for a children's book - has 20ft giants raping normal-sized women and gallons of cum. Heinlein is also thought by at least one academic critic (can't remember name, book published in the '80s) to have pedophile themes, e.g. "The Door Into Summer" and the Martian's reproductive scheme in multiple books, which has the immature Martians as the female sex, with the adults being male. Heinlein was also an early nudist, an activity which had a lot of appeal to those who wanted to see kids naked.

Anonymous Scintan June 26, 2014 5:21 PM  

So far as I've seen, there are no people being dragged into the town square or court house, no one has been killed or tortured, perhaps a loss of revenue from would be consumers now informed, but no existing estates have been seized by the Ilk, No wild accusations taken as word of law and enforced as such.

Try again.


Try not to be stupid, if you can help it.

Anonymous takin' a look June 26, 2014 5:25 PM  

" Scintan June 26, 2014 5:21 PM

Try not to be stupid, if you can help it."

No, I will leave that to you, you seem to be quite capable as is. (rollseyes)

Anonymous Scintan June 26, 2014 5:36 PM  

No, I will leave that to you, you seem to be quite capable as is. (rollseyes)

You couldn't help it, I see. You should have just read the discussion. You see, the person who claimed it's not a witch hunt must have had the same problem. Had either of you actually read the discussion, you'd have seen the following:

Anyone who is on record as defending pedophilia in writing deserves the full witch hunt treatment AS A WRITER. That much should be obvious.

The stupidity of trying to play games with 'witch hunt' in a thread where the lefties are being called out for playing games in their approach to the language, was apparently lost on you.

Anonymous takin' a look June 26, 2014 5:38 PM  

MUltan June 26, 2014 5:21 PM

"The Door Into Summer" and the Martian's reproductive scheme in multiple books, which has the immature Martians as the female sex, with the adults being male."

Terran Biology has Hundreds if not Thousands of Species of critters with weird-assed reproductive biology. but Hienlien seems to have been a pervert, he did this crap not out of any real exploration, but to satisfy his inner sicko.

http://coo.fieldofscience.com/2009/05/my-genitals-just-grew-eyes-and-swam.html

Read this article, it is friggin' COOL. (hint hint for sci-fi writers) it is a totally weird reproductive system, with no pedo-bear crap.

Anonymous Citizen SD June 26, 2014 5:38 PM  

Brief note:

Master-level troll? Pay his back dues *for him* - mail in a money order, cashier's check, whatever. This places them in the position of either expelling him or nailing his (now REACTIVATED) membership up to the front page for God and everybody to see, depriving them of the excuse of 'Oh, well, he didn't pay his dues'. It is a no-lose proposition. I daresay there are few better uses of a few spare bucks.

Carry on.

Anonymous Bobby Trosclair June 26, 2014 5:39 PM  

Anent Heinlein, the reason he left involvement with SF fandom was because he felt Marion Zimmer Bradley, a friend of his, was treated poorly because of the "Breendoggle," when her husband pederastic obsessions became known:

From RAH's letter to MZB in William H. Patterson’s book Robert A. Heinlein, Vol 2: In Dialogue with His Century Volume 2: The Man Who Learned Better, p. 263:

"The fan nuisance we were subjected to was nothing like as nasty as the horrible things that were done to you two but it was bad enough that we could get nothing else done during the weeks it went on and utterly spoiled what should have been a pleasant, happy winter. But it resulted in a decision which has made our life much pleasanter already and which I expect to have increasingly good effects throughout all the years ahead. We have cut off all contact with organized fandom….I regret that we will miss meeting some worthwhile people in the future as a result of this decision. But the percentage of poisonous jerks in the ranks of fans makes the price too high; we’ll find our friends elsewhere."

I don't read Piers Anthony anymore. As a teen, I liked the BATTLE CIRCLE trilogy, but found his short story "In the Barn" in one of Ellison's Dangerous Vision anthologies both disgusting and repellent. From the quotations in reviews of his books (such as TATHAM MOUND, wherein Anthony's hero has sex with a 10 year old girl, using honey for lube and described in excruciatingly pornographic detail, or FIREFLY, where a five year old girl describes how she was "asking for it," (relevant quotes here: http://hradzka.livejournal.com/392471.html), I never could read his books.

In one of Anthony's newsletters, he took pains to explain...what?

"Another asked whether, considering that I have things like underage sex in On A Pale Horse and Bio of a Space Tyrant, I am attracted to underage women. I regard that, however politely phrased, as an implication I am a pedophile. First, I asked the questioner to identify the page number of Pale Horse where any such thing exists, as I don't believe it does. Elsewhere in the interview I had a comment about folk who condemn me for things that aren't in my novels. Then I went into an extended discussion of the nature of human sexual interest, which is essentially that if she's 36-24-36 and fair of feature, men are attracted, and so am I, regardless whether she's 15 or 50, and I don't think those extremes make me either a pedophile or a necrophile. Well, I got no page numbers, and was accused of doing a song and dance, avoiding the issue, and of attacking the questioners. That's what annoys me. I get the impression that some folk want to make me out a pedophile and think I'm being evasive when I try to clarify the issue. I find all shapely women appealing, which is hardly the same."

http://www.hipiers.com/02aug.html

Anonymous Bobby Trosclair June 26, 2014 5:39 PM  

In another Q&A section, he took pains to clear it all up:

"Some time we'll have to discuss why the sight of a naked woman as God made her should be considered to harm a child, but that's another issue. I wonder whether the females who enjoy fantasy are all that few; it's been a number of years since I tried counting the ratio of fan letters I received, but when I did it ranged from something like 60-40 to 80-20 in favor of female, and I believe I still get more fe-mail than male-mail. Much of it is for novels like Firefly and the Mode series, which do have juvenile female sex: they say that it's about time that someone addressed this matter honestly in fiction. I suspect I have heard from more teen girl victims than just about any other male writer, and it's not because they think I'm disparaging their concerns. Or are you referring only to Xanth, where Mundane attitudes are rather obviously parodied, such as with the fauns & nymphs, certainly a male fantasy, and the naughty fun about panties. Very few girls object to Xanth either; some even suggest panty puns."

http://beta.slashdot.org/story/26939

Later in the above article:

"So let me address the specific question you do ask: am I attracted to young women? Yes; I am attracted to the entire female persuasion, and have women of every age in my fiction, and women of every age have sex in my fiction. The fact is, as I explore in my GEODYSSEY series, men are attracted to women, and to the shapely ones more than the others, and to the young ones more than the older ones. I don't mean to children, but to girls after they develop breasts and pubic hair, signals of sexual maturity. This relates to the apparent breedability of women; the strategy of the man is to capture a woman at the beginning of her reproductive life and have as many children by her as possible. So young women tend to be the most appealing; it's pretty much hard-wired in our species, and this is reflected in our society's glorification of youth in TV, movies, magazine, advertising--everywhere, as if it is a crime to ever get old. As a man who recently shared the 46th anniversary with the woman I married when she was 19, I deplore this global cultural attitude, but I understand it. To appreciate young women should not be to disparage older ones. And I do like to look at young women. Yes, my wife understands; once we were watching a video, and I needed to brush my teeth in the bathroom and missed a very nice nude-woman sequence with Bo Derrick, so she told me, wound it back, and played it over. It's like bird watching: one looks and appreciates but does not touch. I suspect that 90% of men who claim to feel otherwise are lying. (I'm allowing for the gay contingent.) This is reflected in my fiction in large part because it sells better than more realistic fiction, and publishers want it. But about membership in an anti-pedophelia organization--I do oppose pedophilia, but don't belong to any such outfit. In fact I correspond with some pedophiles in prison."

Sure. I mean, don't we all?

We should take care to differentiate that simply describing an act doesn't mean that the writer condones it or would ever carry it out; but the loving descriptions of the acts in these SF writers works is vile, and nothing anyone normal would want to read or have in their house. Their use of pornographic descriptions to describe sex acts with children should be repudiated.

Anonymous takin' a look June 26, 2014 5:46 PM  

"Scintan June 26, 2014 5:36 PM

You couldn't help it, I see. You should have just read the discussion. You see, the person who claimed it's not a witch hunt must have had the same problem. Had either of you actually read the discussion, you'd have seen the following:

Anyone who is on record as defending pedophilia in writing deserves the full witch hunt treatment AS A WRITER. That much should be obvious.

The stupidity of trying to play games with 'witch hunt' in a thread where the lefties are being called out for playing games in their approach to the language, was apparently lost on you."

Not at all, you've taken WORDS from a frustrated and morally sickened individual and tried to extrapolate it to REAL TIME actions. Major Fail.

And no, Pedo-bear seems to stalk both the "left" and the "right"



Anonymous Bobby Trosclair June 26, 2014 5:52 PM  

MUltan wrote: "The ironic thing is that with the exception of Dhalgren and Hogg (both unreadable) Delany has almost no explicit sex scenes in his work..."

I am blissfully unaware of most of Delany's work but his "Through the Valley of the Nest of Spiders" sounds like one like porno scene. From Jo Walton's review on Tor.com, wherein she cuts to the real heart of what makes this book hard to read - it's not the father/son homosexual incest, it's not the gay sex involving sucking snot out of each other's nose or eating each other's feces, it's the racist language - now THAT'S obscene to Walton:

" It’s not just the graphic sex, though it is very graphic, very copious, and very descriptive. It’s not just the coprophagia and mutual snot-eating — though that’s what kept making me literally gag. It’s also the racial epithets that are our real modern day taboos, the “culturally charged language” as one of the characters calls it. I just can’t sit there next to some elderly Jamaican lady on her way home from church and risk her reading over my shoulder something that would distress her and which she’d only be able to interpret as racist porn. And there’s something like that on almost every page."

Jo describes the plot, such as it is:

"Eric Jeffers is a sixteen year old white gay boy from Atlanta who has been brought up mostly by his black stepfather. Eric wants to be a good person and to make the world better. As the book begins he goes for one last early morning cruise among the local homeless guys in the hope of sex before he goes to stay with his mother in Diamond Harbor. Just outside that town he gets his father to stop at Turpens, a truck stop where he has a lot of very graphic sex with some people who are going to be very very important to the story so you’d better keep paying attention. (I found the sex in Turpens to be the most difficult bit of the whole book.)

"This is where Eric meets S**t Haskell. The novel is the story of how starting from there they love each other, how they negotiate loving each other, while having sex with lots of other people and animals, and precisely how the relationship works over their lifetimes as the world changes and continues to change. They are embedded in history and contexted by time. As time goes on their own past becomes mythologised by other people, and a constant struggle to correct them. Also time telescopes, so that in the end the world of the young people is as incomprehensible to them as the world where they grew up is to the young people — Eric meets the granddaughter of a man he had sex with on that first day in Turpens, she has been to Mars and is part of a political struggle for multi-person marriage rights. Delany himself is old enough now that he has very interesting angles on all of this."

Blogger SQT June 26, 2014 5:56 PM  

@Bobby--

Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! So much foulness out there. Worse than I even imagined.

Anonymous Daniel June 26, 2014 5:59 PM  

Why? You don't like finding witches?

You're not finding witches. You're claiming to find witches.


So the claims are false? MZB is not a child molester? Anthony didn't write positively about pedophilia in Firefly? Breen didn't rape at least 22 children? Kramer is not imprisoned? Scalzi and Hines have not fallen silent about Kramer's membership?

Which witches aren't witching for you? What have you got against pointing out pedo-positive writers? I'm missing your point.

Anonymous Scintan June 26, 2014 6:03 PM  

Not at all, you've taken WORDS from a frustrated and morally sickened individual and tried to extrapolate it to REAL TIME actions. Major Fail.

No, I took a word pairing that has an actual definition and applied it properly. You behaved like the SFWA people quoted by Vox, and tried playing definitional word games, and I refused to do so. It's really that simple.

Anonymous Scintan June 26, 2014 6:05 PM  

What have you got against pointing out pedo-positive writers? I'm missing your point.

Your claim that Anthony's in Firefly somehow makes him a pedo-positive writer is idiotic.

Anonymous Scintan June 26, 2014 6:10 PM  

Tolkien has men killed in his stories. He's pro-murder!

Anonymous takin' a look June 26, 2014 6:13 PM  

Scintan June 26, 2014 6:03 PM

"No, I took a word pairing that has an actual definition and applied it properly. You behaved like the SFWA people quoted by Vox, and tried playing definitional word games, and I refused to do so. It's really that simple."

No games here, and neither I or Vox or really, any of the ilk, "left" or "right" seem to see you as anything other than a desperate troll. We see Evil and call it out, you are trying to equate words with physical actions, that is getting slapped down.

Anonymous Scintan June 26, 2014 6:17 PM  

No games here, and neither I or Vox or really, any of the ilk, "left" or "right" seem to see you as anything other than a desperate troll. We see Evil and call it out, you are trying to equate words with physical actions, that is getting slapped down.

I've been here for years. Calling me a troll is just another part of your mimicry of the SFWA approach. Disqualify! Disqualify! Disqualify!

Let's see what you've mirrored, so far. Here's the witch hunt issue:

Why should we keep talking about Kramer? Oh, right, because VD made up some fake bullshit to stir controversy. Not surprising at all.

Here's the troll comment:

What a troll. Never could understand such petty BS. How small his soul must be to run a campaign of destruction of others.

Congrats. You fit yourself right in with Shaun Duke and Walter Fisher.

Blogger SQT June 26, 2014 6:21 PM  

Your claim that Anthony's in Firefly somehow makes him a pedo-positive writer is idiotic.

I think a lot of people will disagree with you on that point.

I don't believe anyone is trying to twist anything Anthony has said to be anything other than what it is on the page. I have seen his work quoted (from "Firefly") many times and his attitude toward pedophilia seems pretty obvious. "Tatham Mound" seems to also echo the same sensibilities.

I'm not going to call you a troll or dismiss the point you're trying to make. I just don't agree with you and I don't think comparisons with the SFWA are warranted.

Anonymous takin' a look June 26, 2014 6:26 PM  

" Scintan June 26, 2014 6:05 PM

What have you got against pointing out pedo-positive writers? I'm missing your point.

Your claim that Anthony's in Firefly somehow makes him a pedo-positive writer is idiotic."

I read Philip Pullman's "His Dark Materials" trilogy, and the scene with Lyra and Will having sex was two underage kids in a manner that was actually "tasteful". Same with Gregory Maguire's characters Rain and Tip. Why? because they were children. Lyra and Will separated forever, Rain and Tip breaking the spell and Rain running away to the Sea. They were Innocents together.

Anonymous Scintan June 26, 2014 6:36 PM  

I think a lot of people will disagree with you on that point.

Only the fools. Anthony has written a lot more than just one book.

Anonymous takin' a look June 26, 2014 6:39 PM  

" Scintan June 26, 2014 6:17 PM

I've been here for years. Calling me a troll is just another part of your mimicry of the SFWA approach. Disqualify! Disqualify! Disqualify!"

So you are a sort of testing ground!

" Let's see what you've mirrored, so far. Here's the witch hunt issue:

Why should we keep talking about Kramer? Oh, right, because VD made up some fake bullshit to stir controversy. Not surprising at all."

Hmm, interesting....It seems like Vox keeps you around to sharpen wits. Uhm, Kramer has been convinced of raping adolescent boys, a old, fat hag of a man with disgusting skin diseases seduces and rapes boys, yep, you got the moral upper hand here!

" Here's the troll comment:

What a troll. Never could understand such petty BS. How small his soul must be to run a campaign of destruction of others."

Awwww, so cute, I feel like sending a brony LULz.

"Congrats. You fit yourself right in with Shaun Duke and Walter Fisher."

Who are they? TL:DNR summary please.

Blogger SQT June 26, 2014 6:51 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger SQT June 26, 2014 6:52 PM  

Only the fools. Anthony has written a lot more than just one book.

So?

The guy has written some skeevy stuff and a lot of people have noticed. Why are you working so hard to defend him? Noticing he has some creepy tendencies is not the same thing as a witch hunt. I don't think we've even come close to that. People may choose to put him on the "do not read" list-- but we tend to do that for a lot of reasons (politics being one). Having a conversation about what content authors choose to put in their books is fair game no matter what your preferences are.

Anonymous takin' a look June 26, 2014 6:56 PM  

Let me guess, you are thinking I somehow "got off" on Lyra and Will, Rain and Tip, no I didn't. It was not "disturbing" like anything Piers Anthony did or any of the other folks discussed here, it was literally heart-breaking and I sometimes wish I could strangle those two authors, yet it was not perverse or disgusting. I cried over these fictional children, much as I cried over fictional chimpanzee "Jennie" by Douglas Preston.

Anonymous automatthew June 26, 2014 7:02 PM  

Scintan, did you pick the wrong week to stop smoking?

It is true that depicting adult-child intercourse does not mean the author is in favor. Cf. the scene in Frank Herbert's Chapterhouse Dune where a Bene Gesserit recruit molests a young boy. That actually made sense in the context of the story, as the boy was the clone of a great war leader, and the story had already established that gholas' memories could be retrieved through super awesome sex. The Bene Gesserit were not depicted by Herbert as any kind of role model.

The point people are making about the Anthony novel is that it doesn't just contain depictions of molestation. The claim is that the novel as a whole tells a story justifying, even celebrating it.

Now if you can show that Anthony was writing for another purpose, satirizing perhaps, that would be a point worth making.

Anonymous takin' a look June 26, 2014 7:18 PM  

To put it in perspective Scintan, The Narrator-Boy in "Hogg" from the Wikipedia description alone leave me cold and numb and feeling like I need a shower and huge cry, it is a background of a turmoil of emotions, mostly impotent rage and a pathetic desire to somehow, anyhow, to shelter him, maybe raise him into something of a normal life. Kill every SOB who used him and stick their heads on pikes.

http://rudetonotice.blogspot.com/2010/04/guerrilla-warfare.html

I feel sort of like Drasius Kreys, who found out his ex was selling his daughter to high-ranking pedorapist for money.

"but they won't touch things like Drasius Kreys. no no no, please do not go there. he's the guy whose little four year old daughter told him that nasty men did things to her with their big sysalai. this happened many times because the men gave the little girl's mother money, and this greedy 'see you next tuesday' cared more about money than protecting her little daughter's dignity and body and soul and psyche and integrity and innocence. so she let these men sexually assault her little girl. repeatedly. and when the little girl told her father, he must have been struggling to wrap his brain around it, can you imagine? so he writes that he will never forget when his four-year old daughter said, while telling his poor gobsmacked self, about their sysalai that smelled like shit and dripping out cream all over her: “are you a baby, daddy? you do not understand anything?”

you know, there's no human being worth a damn who doesn't get this. the outrage of this. the fucking outrage. the violation. the theft of something precious that cannot be replaced. the crime against innocence that can never be repaid, that a four year old child might chide her father for naivete. because she's already used to being treated like a whore.

it makes something snap inside."

Anonymous The other skeptic June 26, 2014 7:19 PM  

Maybe this guy is a member of the SFWA as well. He seems to have some of the qualifications.

Anonymous Former Prez Says June 26, 2014 7:21 PM  

"It is my belief that SFWA has, under my tenure as president and through the actions of the board as a whole, become an organization with a more diverse membership, and also more useful and helpful to that diverse membership. However, it is also my belief that public perception of the organization matters, not only to the membership that pays its dues, but to those who could become members (and thus strengthen the organization) and to the public who sees the membership comment about the organization in social media. All the positive work the organization does for writers and members means little when things like this blow up.

When they blow up, I believe that we need to respond in two ways. First, own up to and take responsibility for the event. I have done so here. Second, put into motion steps that show immediately and concretely that the organization is committed to not making the same mistakes again."

Blogger Worlds Edge June 26, 2014 7:26 PM  

Any others anyone here can recall?

Hmmm...I'm not sure this qualifies, but the Wraethru books by Storm Constantine had one of the oddest takes on male sexuality I think I've ever attempted to read. Some sort of mutation of teenage boys into gay-hermaphrodite Nietzschean Ubermenschen; super strong, super fast and so on. But I must admit I bailed about 75 pages into the first book, just about the point where the protagonist was about to get "turned" from male to hermaphrodite via some sort of magical-sexual-mumbo-jumbo ritual, so I may not have this exactly correct.

A bit of a disappointment, since it was kind of an interesting bit of High Fantasy world-building. I just couldn't deal with the sexual content, that seemed to veering more and more to a male/male (hermaphrodite/male or hermaphrodite/hermaphrodite, etc) version of Gor the longer I kept plodding along. Moreover, since it was, as best I recall, young post-change hermaphrodites in their early 20s with the whole Supermen bit going for them preying on teenage boys I'm not *QUITE* sure this qualifies it as pedophilia. Very strange, certainly. And one of those DNF books I do wish I could flush down the memory hole.

Another series I actually liked in parts but also had to put down due to strong sexual content was the Prince of Nothing by R. Scott Bakker. Again, not quite sure it spoke in favor of pedophilia, but, man it seemed to have a gang rape scene every seventh page or so. Gang rape in every flavor and type imaginable: Women, men, children. And with what I took to be the "heroes" of the story as the more than occasional perpetrators. Though the bad guys got into the act here as well, of course. Another DNF, so perhaps justice of a sort was meted out eventually. But I just didn't have the stomach to stick around and find out.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 26, 2014 7:47 PM  

That's ridiculous.

And I'm saying that as nicely as I can.


Scintan, two questions to clarify what's going on here.

You said the above in response to a statement that writers who defend pedophilia deserve to be the focus of a which hunt.

One, do you think Piers Anthony has written stories or essays that defend pedophilia?

Two, do you think a writer (not necessarily Anthony, but just "a writer") who defends or advocates pedophilia should be considered just another writer, good or bad according to the quality of their prose, plot and characters?

Anonymous takin' a look June 26, 2014 7:53 PM  

"automatthew June 26, 2014 7:02 PM

Scintan, did you pick the wrong week to stop smoking?

It is true that depicting adult-child intercourse does not mean the author is in favor. Cf. the scene in Frank Herbert's Chapterhouse Dune where a Bene Gesserit recruit molests a young boy. That actually made sense in the context of the story, as the boy was the clone of a great war leader, and the story had already established that gholas' memories could be retrieved through super awesome sex. The Bene Gesserit were not depicted by Herbert as any kind of role model.

The point people are making about the Anthony novel is that it doesn't just contain depictions of molestation. The claim is that the novel as a whole tells a story justifying, even celebrating it.

Now if you can show that Anthony was writing for another purpose, satirizing perhaps, that would be a point worth making."

I agree with you, the two books I've read with underage sex were both of adolescents, not children/adolescents with adults and they were major plot points, but tastefully done. You can read them and see exactly what I mean.

*I have to correct myself, I did read Jean Auel's "Clan of the Cave Bear", there is a rape scene between Ayla and Broud that is clearly "Child/Adult" rape between a *Homo sapiens* and a *Homo neandertalensis*

Anonymous The other skeptic June 26, 2014 8:03 PM  

FBI: Sexual Exploitation of Children is Increasing Exponentially

Well, with the attitude of the SFWA it's no wonder.

Anonymous Ratbast June 26, 2014 8:12 PM  

Re: S. Andrew Swann's comment.

It gets a little tiring to hear people badmouth the Church when it has taken pro-active steps to prevent further abuse (the majority of which took place in the 60's when more homosexuals than ever before were admitted to the prioesthood, a fact left out of most media narratives for...mysterious reasons).

In fact, today you're statistically more likely to be abused by social workers, public school teachers, and rabbis, which again is seldom brought up in the mainstream media for...mysterious reasons.

http://www.culturewars.com/2014/Allen%20Double%20Standard%202.htm
http://www.culturewars.com/2004/ModernPsych.html
http://www.themediareport.com/

Anonymous takin' a look June 26, 2014 8:20 PM  

"The other skeptic June 26, 2014 8:03 PM
FBI: Sexual Exploitation of Children is Increasing Exponentially
Well, with the attitude of the SFWA it's no wonder."

No, that is just the normal crap that happens when a society breaks down. expect a lot more white girls and boys to become cumdumps for the white perverts and the POC very soon.

Anonymous Ratbast June 26, 2014 8:37 PM  

Re: S. Andrew Swann’s comment.
It gets a little tiring to hear people badmouth the Church when it has taken pro-active steps to prevent further abuse (the majority of which took place in the 60′s when more homosexuals than ever before were admitted to the prioesthood, a fact left out of most media narratives for…mysterious reasons).
In fact, today you’re statistically more likely to be abused by social workers, public school teachers, and rabbis, which again is seldom brought up in the mainstream media for…mysterious reasons.
http://www.culturewars.com/2014/Allen%20Double%20Standard%202.htm
http://www.culturewars.com/2004/ModernPsych.html
http://www.themediareport.com/

Blogger Jefferson Selvy June 26, 2014 11:24 PM  

That is a recipe for indigestion

Blogger rycamor June 27, 2014 12:12 AM  

Scintan June 26, 2014 5:36 PM


Anyone who is on record as defending pedophilia in writing deserves the full witch hunt treatment AS A WRITER. That much should be obvious.

The stupidity of trying to play games with 'witch hunt' in a thread where the lefties are being called out for playing games in their approach to the language, was apparently lost on you.

Remember, Scintan: *you* were the one that brought up "witch hunt". That's a word game right there. As for me, let me see if I understand your position correctly:

The next time a friend of mine tells me his son is reading lots of SF/Fantasy and asks me for advice, I most certainly *should not* mention these problematic writers to him, because that's a "witch hunt". I should just keep this stuff to myself and tell him it's fair sailing--just let his son read any SF/Fantasy produced over the last 60 years. Natch!

As I recall, Scintan was also the most cognitive-dissonant faithful Republican in the early Ilk days, right about the time Curious George began his middle eastern adventures. I see the see-no-evil attitude remains.

Anonymous Scintan June 27, 2014 12:43 AM  

As I recall, Scintan was also the most cognitive-dissonant faithful Republican in the early Ilk days, right about the time Curious George began his middle eastern adventures. I see the see-no-evil attitude remains.

You remember incorrectly, which is no surprise. My position has always been essentially the same, which is that, in a two party system as rigid as the one in place in the U.S., change pretty much has to come from within a party. Given that constriction, and given the hopelessness of any attempt by conservatives to sway the Democrats, the only way to accomplish that is by generally voting with the Republicans nationally to slow the train wreck, while (and this is the key) getting legitimately conservative people into politics at the lower levels, so that they can work their way up the ladder.

Anonymous Scintan June 27, 2014 12:47 AM  

The point people are making about the Anthony novel is that it doesn't just contain depictions of molestation. The claim is that the novel as a whole tells a story justifying, even celebrating it.

The point is that Anthony has written, according to Wiki (close enough for the point), 166 works for publication. The idiocy of pointing to one or two books that you think have bad think as some arbiter of his entire body of work is the sort of foolishness that intelligent people who think instead of emote are usually able to avoid.

Blogger rycamor June 27, 2014 12:50 AM  

Yeah Scintan... that's exactly what I mean. Slow the train wreck.

Anonymous Scintan June 27, 2014 12:59 AM  

Yeah Scintan... that's exactly what I mean. Slow the train wreck.

So what you really mean is that you wanted to selectively edit my position in order to make it seem like something it's not.

Anonymous Michael Falk - Autistic Reporter June 27, 2014 1:07 AM  

Train wreck?!?

Anonymous The other skeptic June 27, 2014 1:08 AM  

Strange books available on Amazon ... with some relevance to this discussion, at least if the blurb is to be believed.

Blogger SQT June 27, 2014 1:34 AM  

The point is that Anthony has written, according to Wiki (close enough for the point), 166 works for publication. The idiocy of pointing to one or two books that you think have bad think as some arbiter of his entire body of work is the sort of foolishness that intelligent people who think instead of emote are usually able to avoid.

There might be one or two total works by Anthony that are grossly inappropriate, but anyone who has read a large body of his work knows that he crossed the line into pervert territory more than once.

I was young when I first started reading his books and didn't have much to compare it to. It wasn't until I started reading other authors (like Terry Brooks, Raymond Feist and David Eddings) that I realized not every fantasy author had such sexual overtones in their work. That's a big reason why I gravitated away from him-- because I had better, less creepy options.

I remember reading "On a Pale Horse" for the first time and thinking an interaction between Luna and her father (where she walks into the room nude) was weird. The fact that all the serfs in the Adept series were nude struck me as strange and voyeuristic. Maybe I'm a prude but I don't think my reactions are that different than a lot of readers. We often like the *idea* of the story but don't always agree that the more salacious elements of the story need to be included. I haven't read much by Anthony in a long, long time so I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot of his more disturbing storylines. I'm sure there are plenty of people here who can augment my memory.

That said-- I'm not trying to ban the guy's work or prevent him from publishing anything else. As far as I know he has never done anything inappropriate in his personal life and I'm not going to punish the guy for putting his fantasies on paper. In fact, I'd much rather he express himself that way rather than acting out on his less savory impulses. I look at it the same way I do gangster rap-- I don't like songs about killing people (or whatever the hell they put into those songs) but I figure it's healthier to write a song about it than it is to actually *do* the things they're talking about.

I'm not trying to draw a direct comparison between Anthony and MZB. As far as I know Bradley's writing was less objectionable than her real life. I presume Anthony is the opposite and is an upright citizen in the real world. At least I hope so.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 27, 2014 2:42 AM  

Scintan, I suppose you've indirectly answered my first question:

One, do you think Piers Anthony has written stories or essays that defend pedophilia?

I'll assume your answer is "no" or at least "not often enough to matter." I'll leave you to debate the accuracy of your position with others. But you still haven't answered my second question:

Two, do you think a writer (not necessarily Anthony, but just "a writer") who defends or advocates pedophilia should be considered just another writer, good or bad according to the quality of their prose, plot and characters?

So, what's the answer to question two?

Anonymous Anonymous June 27, 2014 3:34 AM  

The fact that all the serfs in the Adept series were nude struck me as strange and voyeuristic. Maybe I'm a prude but I don't think my reactions are that different than a lot of readers. We often like the *idea* of the story but don't always agree that the more salacious elements of the story need to be included.

Yep. Even as a teenager I knew the idea of a society where people walk around naked and it doesn't bother them was stupid. I still liked the series because the idea of the Game was really cool, and Stile was an interesting character. "Salacious" is a good word for his work in general, though. He just finds reasons to have his characters -- sometimes including children -- naked or having sex a lot more often than most authors.

As far as whether a few bad books should taint a whole catalog, let me use a completely different example: The Seven Storey Mountain by Thomas Merton is a classic Prodigal Son story of a man who lives a hedonistic life but always feels there's something missing. He gradually finds his way to Christ, and ends the story becoming a Trappist monk. I'd recommend that book to anyone. Unfortunately, he went on to write some "all paths are true" stuff that suggests an equivalence between all religions and contradicts much of the point of Mountain. I wouldn't want my recommendation of Mountain to lead to someone tracking down those other books and being misled into heresy.

So I'd hesitate to recommend Anthony's not-so-salacious books that I enjoyed, because I wouldn't want them to become such big fans (as I did) that they track down the more disturbing stuff. It's hard to recommend a book without recommending the author, unless you provide a specific list of to-read and not-to-read.

Blogger SQT June 27, 2014 3:50 AM  

So I'd hesitate to recommend Anthony's not-so-salacious books that I enjoyed, because I wouldn't want them to become such big fans (as I did) that they track down the more disturbing stuff. It's hard to recommend a book without recommending the author, unless you provide a specific list of to-read and not-to-read.

Yes. Exactly. It's not precisely the "slippery slope" argument but it's close. For me, it's whether or not I'd feel comfortable with my kids reading his work-- and I wouldn't. My parents didn't monitor what I read; I don't make the same mistake.

Anonymous Bz June 27, 2014 5:10 AM  

"nothing as explicit as Gene Wolfe's "The Knight" (IIRC - perhaps the sequel) which gratuitously - especially for a children's book"

First of all, that's certainly not a children's book. Second, if you can't feel the horror and pity of that scene (which as I recall is a maid describing to the hero what will happen to her, while on her way to being "wed" to a giant) you need to tune up your empathy module.

Anonymous Bz June 27, 2014 5:22 AM  

"More ham-fisted dumbness from SFWA, Gould, Scalzi and Hines. Genius solution-- scrub the guy's name from the registry, add snide comments about those who criticize, and hope it all goes away. Idiots."

Yes, it might be the worst possible solution. Perhaps some journalist should call and ask for the details about Kramer's membership? Remember, lying will always come out. And "expelled this morning" isn't really the SFWA taking a strong stand.

Anonymous MUltan June 27, 2014 12:36 PM  

@Bobby Trosclair I stand corrected on recent Delany / "Through the Valley of the Nest of Spiders" , I haven't read anything he's published in the last 15 years, but Nova, Babel-17 and many of his short stories are still classics.

If we demand that writers must pass a purity test for all their work and their lives in order for any of their work to be considered worth reading, it will be used by pinkshirts as well to shun all the work of anyone who has ever said something they find offensive. (They will anyway, but no need to copy their fallacies.)

Blogger rycamor June 28, 2014 3:57 PM  

Purity test? Witch hunt? What is with you guys? I don't give a damn about ideological conformance or any other such weaselly shit. I'm saying there are some things which are beyond the pale and which I don't want my kids reading, and which I refuse to subsidize either financially or via my good will recommendations. Simple as that. I want to know rather than be in blissful ignorance.

Seems that some here do protest entirely too much.

Post a Comment

Rules of the blog
Please do not comment as "Anonymous". Comments by "Anonymous" will be spammed.

<< Home

Newer Posts Older Posts