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Tuesday, June 24, 2014

SFWA still harbors child molesters

SFWA's sordid history of harboring child molesters is not, as some of its defenders would have you believe, nothing but a relic of freaky 1960s SF fandom. From the 2010 SFWA Directory:

Kowal, Mary Robinette (A)
Secretary of SFWA
[Address 1]
[Address 2]
[Telephone]
secretary@secretary.org
[personal email]
www.maryrobinettekowal.com
Twitter: maryrobinette
[SFWA Agent Code]

Kramer, Edward E. (A)
[Address 1]
[Address 2]
[Telephone]
[personal email]
[AOL email]
http://www.edkramer.com

Krasnoff, Barbara (A)
[Address 1]
Etcetera.

So who is this Edward E. Kramer? He is the founder of Dragoncon in Atlanta and an Active member of SFWA who was convicted in December 2013 of three counts of child molestation.
Back in February Deadline went behind the boycott of popular Atlanta sci-fi convention DragonCon, whose co-founder Ed Kramer avoided trial on child molestation charges for over a decade while receiving income from the annual fan fest. This morning in Gwinnett County, GA, the embattled Kramer pleaded guilty to three counts of child molestation and was sentenced to 34 months under house arrest — instead of the 20-year term recommended by the Gwinnett County DA’s office. It’s the latest apparent break for Kramer, whose health complaints led to numerous delays in a 13-year series of evasive legal motions believed to have been financed by his reported $150K per year (in 2011) shareholder cash flow from DragonCon. But as Gwinnett County District Attorney Danny Porter explained to Deadline today, “We wanted a resolution of the case and the victims wanted a resolution of the case and they agreed to the recommendations.” Under the court’s nine-condition agreement, if the 52-year-old Kramer violates even a single term he could land back in prison for up to 60 years. Those include failing to pay each victim a $100K restitution, violating his house arrest, or coming in contact with any person under the age of 16.
This convicted child molester was actively supported and defended in official SFWA publications by a number of SFWA members, including Ann McCaffrey, Brad Linaweaver of the SFWA Grievance Committee, and other SFWA members, some of whom were among the 267 members of the Ed Kramer Legal Defense Fund.
What can we do to help our friend Ed Kramer? If money is needed, we should organize a benefit campaign. It is probably time to go to the media. It should be played up as flagrant anti-Semitism, which it clearly is. Ed needs to sue and seek criminal prosecutions of his torturers. And, quite frankly, of his accusers. As far as I can tell, he has suffered this ordeal merely because of a malicious lie. This sort of thing has happened before, not necessarily in the South. In Salem, Massachusetts, for example.Certainly, SFWA, if it is good for anything, should not leave Ed Kramer to rot.
- Darrell Schweitzer, Issue 199 (October 2004) of the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America (SFWA) Forum
This wasn't the only defense of Kramer in the Forum or in other official SFWA publications. SFWA Member and Nebula Award winner Robert Sawyer wrote in 2006:
I do my best to bring up Ed' name whenever I can. In fact, I mentioned and praised him in the latest issue of the SFWA BULLETIN (I happened to be on the Nebula ballot, and got to say a few words).
As of this morning, 18 years after his first arrest for aggravated child molestation, 14 years after his arrest on three counts of child molestation, three years after arrest in Connecticut for "risk of injury to a minor", 18 months after being arrested again in Connecticut for violating his bond, and six months after his guilty plea on three counts of child molestation, ED KRAMER IS STILL AN ACTIVE MEMBER OF SFWA! The screen shot below was taken this morning, 23 June 2014, from the SFWA member directory.

Ann Somerville tried to claim I unfairly tarred various SFWA members with being complicit by virtue of their silence regarding Marion Zimmer Bradley. She wrote: "Vox Day linked MZB with Delany as part of ‘Pink SF’ and then linked them to Jim Hines, Mary Kowal, Rachel Swirsky, Marko Kloos, John Scalzi, Sheri Tepper, and Mercedes Lackey, in a very clear attempt to smear these upstanding and entirely non-criminal individuals by association."

But most of them were associated with MZB, some of them, like Jim "Celebrate her legacy" Hines, directly and professionally. And then there is their continued association with Ed Kramer. The fact is that these "upstanding and entirely non-criminal individuals" chose to support, defend, and continue to associate with an SFWA member who they knew, at a bare minimum, to be an accused child molester. John Scalzi was SFWA president for three years during which Kramer's abusive activities were a matter of public record; Scalzi is also known to have attended Kramer's Dragoncon in 2008. Mary Kowal was on the SFWA Board during that time, as was Rachel Swirsky. And, to the best of my knowledge, not a single one of these SFWA members has ever publicly or privately demanded that a confirmed and convicted child molester be expelled from SFWA.

There is no more possibility of denying the facts. SFWA knowingly shields, supports, defends, and even praises child molesters. It should be obvious that any SFWA member who continues to associate with SFWA despite this long-time and continuing institutional support of child molestation is, at the very least, tolerant of those who rape and abuse children. But give them some credit, they are indubitably tough on tweets!

SFWA President Steven Gould still has not responded to my questions concerning SFWA's ongoing support for the late Marion Zimmer Bradley. Perhaps SFWA members who are concerned about their organization's continued association with convicted child molesters and NAMBLA supporters will see fit to ask him about SFWA's connections to Mr. Kramer and Mr. Delany. Or perhaps they will continue to remain complicit in their silence.

UPDATE: Creepy rape enthusiast Jim C. Hines pretends to ignore the screenshot:

"Apparently, a certain SF/F troll is tweeting about SFWA harboring child molester Ed Kramer. So I pulled up the online membership directory."

I notice that SFWA scrubbed Ed Kramer from the membership directory AFTER I took the screenshot and posted it here this morning. Which makes John Scalzi's tweet more than a little amusing:

John Scalzi @scalzi
.@jimchines The Naive Idiocy of Not Checking Your Facts Before Making Accusations Online


Or rather, the naive idiocy of failing to understand that some people are smart enough to anticipate your attempts to cover your ass.

147 Comments:

Anonymous Christian in Hollyweird June 24, 2014 7:22 AM  

I'm trying to find a way to understand this. These people don't really (like, in their souls) support child molesters, do they? Is their membership to the herd that important to them? Doesn't add up. Seems like at this point they're just hoping you'll eventually get bored and go away.

Anonymous ... June 24, 2014 7:24 AM  

why did you mention Kowal, Mary Robinette?

Anonymous VD June 24, 2014 7:27 AM  

why did you mention Kowal, Mary Robinette?

She came right before him in the directory. That's all.

However, it should be noted that she was a member of the SFWA Board who did nothing to expel him even though he had been arrested for child molestation multiple times, including while she was a board member.

Anonymous Anonymous June 24, 2014 7:29 AM  

Funny, in his picture he doesn't totally look like a creepy molester or anything.

Anonymous VD June 24, 2014 7:31 AM  

These people don't really (like, in their souls) support child molesters, do they? Is their membership to the herd that important to them?

Some do, some don't. They support homosexuality, after all. They support "gay marriage". They support abortion. I wouldn't place much confidence in their moral compasses. Most of them are simply followers of the herd. Tell them "gay is good" or "children need a kind and knowledgeable sexual teacher" enough times and they'll not only buy it, they'll tell you you're evil for rejecting it.

Seems like at this point they're just hoping you'll eventually get bored and go away.

(laughs)

Anonymous Laz June 24, 2014 7:35 AM  

"Funny, in his picture he doesn't totally look like a creepy molester or anything."

You'll take that back after a google image search.

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein June 24, 2014 7:38 AM  

These people (like Polanski) are ARTISTs, dammit. They can *see* things that most can't.

Vox, you are a RACISSS. You can only see what everyone else (if they can be bothered to look) can see.

Blogger Doom June 24, 2014 7:41 AM  

*cough* "...they are indubitably tough on tweets!" *cough* All tweets equal but some tweets are more equal.

Anonymous Smokey June 24, 2014 7:42 AM  

The SFWA is effectively dead now, or soon will be. You've exposed their Achilles Heel. There is no going back after this. The best they can do now is hope that you will be merciful enough not to grind their faces into the dust too hard.

Certainly, most of the prominent members of the SFWA are going to have their reputations permanently damaged in the process.

Anonymous Maximo Macaroni June 24, 2014 7:42 AM  

Is it too soon to say that a whole lot of evidence points to the SFWA as a criminal organization? Where's the Justice Department? Oh, that's right.

Blogger ScuzzaMan June 24, 2014 7:46 AM  

My father used to say that, when it comes to a shit-flinging context, it isn't how much you throw that counts, but how much sticks.

Seems like a lot of it's sticking to the SFWA ...

Oh, da 'umanity!

Anonymous ... June 24, 2014 7:47 AM  

more names to add to your list:
www.serversystems.net/free-ed

Anonymous ... June 24, 2014 7:48 AM  

Anne McCaffrey

My response is violent, as I have often been a guest and GoH at Dragon*Con. I have written such people as I know who might spread the word and try to get Ed his trial. Four effing years? And this is before the current Bush administration. Something must be done for him.

I naively thought that such epithets as "Jewish Christ- killer" (especially as it was the Romans who passed the sentence) had gone the way of "nigger" but, obviously I'm wrong. I never had much use for the State of Georgia anyhow but there are limits past which any right-thinking person must take action. As a euro-citizen, I would be happy to take it to the Hague. (I'll find out how.)

But thank you for laying out the sordid facts and reminding us all that some basic human rights can be at risk. Like a proper trial and appropriate religious services
-- Anne McCaffrey, Pern series author

Anonymous VD June 24, 2014 7:49 AM  

It's informative how they don't see different human sub-species, they don't see the implications of genetic science, they don't see God, and they don't see child molesters. It's as if they simply don't see anything they don't want to see. It must be a difficult way to go through life, being about as effective as a blind frog trying to cross the highway.

To be honest, my jaw dropped when I saw Kramer show up in the current membership list. Seeing his name in the 2010 directory made me blink, but to see that he was still a member after my name had been removed was truly astonishing. I have an EXTREMELY low opinion of these people, but even I didn't think that Scalzi, Kowal, Gould, and Swirsky, among others, would simply look the other way where an oft-accused, oft-arrested and convicted child molester was concerned.

I was wrong.

Anonymous ... June 24, 2014 7:51 AM  

Jerry Ahern

My wife and kids and I have known Ed for decades. We attended DragonCon in those days when Ed still ran it and knew Ed socially and business-wise beyond the scope of DragonCon. Ed is a fine man. Without beating around the bush, Sharon and I would have trusted our kids around Ed any day of the week. We have five grandchildren and I'd not hesitate a moment to ask Ed to babysit. Ed has gotten a raw deal, his freedom stolen from him without benefit of due process. Terrorists get better treatment than Ed.
Free Ed!
-- Jerry Ahern, author of The Survialist series
Brian Rothery

Ed Kramer's case has not gone unnoticed outside of America. Unfortunately many of us see it as one more example (even if one of the worst) of due process being suspended and America having become a prosecutorial police state. Sad for those of us who have long admired a great country.
-- Brian Rothery, Ireland, Author, www.inquisition21.com
Harlan Ellison

It's primordial. Gwinnett County behaves as if it's the 14th century, and it's the Spanish inquisition. They're treating Ed Kramer as if he's the Marquis De Sade for Chrissakes.
-- Harlan Ellison, a renowned novelist and close friend of Ed Kramer

Anonymous RL June 24, 2014 7:53 AM  

It would seem that Scalzi, Kowal, Gould, and Swirsky, etc, are lower than whale shit at the bottom of the sea. I am glad I don't have any of their books, I would need to throw them out if I did.

Anonymous VD June 24, 2014 7:53 AM  

You provided the link .... you don't need to copy everything there into the comments here.

Anonymous takin' a look June 24, 2014 7:59 AM  

Geezus, I'm reading all this, looking at the names of people who he's worked with and all I can think of is Whoopi Goldberg...

All these people are fucking evil or at the very least, mentally ill/brainwashed if they are supporters. This is like a Geek version of the Pedophacracy. I wonder if any of these Sick Fucks got tapes from Dutroux or palled around with Jimmy Savile?

Anonymous VD June 24, 2014 7:59 AM  

The best they can do now is hope that you will be merciful enough not to grind their faces into the dust too hard.

A vain hope. It's not about me anymore. It may have started out that way, but we're dealing with some serious monsters here. They all need to be exposed, including those who have tolerated, celebrated, aided, and abetted them.

My expulsion has turned out to be a very good thing, because it deprives them of the one legitimate excuse they might have used, which is that they do not concern themselves with anything but professional activities. That is eminently not true, so it serves as useful evidence of what they are, and what they are not, willing to tolerate.

Even if they belatedly expel Kramer now, it will be obvious that they knowingly tolerated him for over a decade and are only acting under external pressure. They are damned by the combination of their actions and inactions.

Anonymous Apollo June 24, 2014 8:09 AM  

Well, its not like he did anything truly horrible, like refer to someone non-white as a "half savage"... they cant just expel people over any old thing, there must be limits. But perhaps they will get around to expelling him after they get rid of any other remaining members who may have at one point used politically incorrect language...

Anonymous Strange Aeons June 24, 2014 8:28 AM  

Not that the Leftoids have ever been lacking in the capacity for mental gymnastics to rationalize their doublethink but this panic on their part tells me that however much they think they're "on the right side of history", deep inside they have to know that the general public (as of yet) still widely regards child molesters & their accomplices as notably worse than those who merely observe racial differences or decline to support gay "marriage". So I'm guessing the NoPlaceForYouophobia has a tighter grip on them than any fear of legal blowback or other repercussions.

Anonymous Anonymous June 24, 2014 8:28 AM  

I'm trying to find a way to understand this. These people don't really (like, in their souls) support child molesters, do they?

It's not so much that they support them (though some surely do), but that they can't condemn evil, because a central tenet of their faith is that objective evil doesn't exist. A normal person considers a grown man having sex with a child and says, "That's evil and it must stop," and he's done. He doesn't need fancy justifications or legal groundings. He just knows and that's enough.

But if you don't recognize the existence of evil, on what grounds do you condemn having sex with children? All you have left is the issue of consent (because you've already declared that anything two or more adults consent to sexually is fine and dandy), so then you have to mull over at what age consent is possible, which gets hung up on the fact that some kids mature and become aware enough to consent earlier than others, and what about people who say their childhood sexual experiences were actually a source of growth for them, pain making them stronger like boot camp, and.... If you can't just condemn something as evil, it's hard to condemn it outright without getting tangled up in making exceptions and babbling about root causes and never getting around to the condemnation.

Also, don't forget, leftism makes you stupid. Combine stupidity with this inability to recognize evil, and you get people who don't know: "If we condemn this, what else might we be doing? What if half our heroes diddled kids? What if this plays into the hands of our enemies, and they're able to use this against the pro-homosexual edifice we've worked so hard to build? (They're stupid, but not so stupid that they don't know there's a connection there.) What if, by caving in to their demands by ejecting all our child molesters, we set off a cascade of "moral" actions and wind up back in the 1950s and can't have gay orgies anymore? Can we take that kind of risk?" Even those who might find it personally repugnant may consider it a sort of "cost of doing business" for the kind of wide-open society they desire.

But in the final analysis, do they support child molesters? Yes, yes they do.

Anonymous Leonidas June 24, 2014 8:29 AM  

I just want to point out that DragonCon itself has been trying for a decade to distance itself from Kramer and finally succeeded last year in buying out his shares so that he no longer makes money off of the con. I know that buying off his shares is less than ideal (he still got money), but as a legal shareholder of the company that owns the con itself, there was no other legal way to get rid of him. Other than his ownership and financial stake, he has not been affiliated with the Con for quite some time.

DragonCon's official statement on the matter

The official separation

Anonymous takin' a look June 24, 2014 8:32 AM  

VD June 24, 2014 7:59 AM

"A vain hope. It's not about me anymore. It may have started out that way, but we're dealing with some serious monsters here. They all need to be exposed, including those who have tolerated, celebrated, aided, and abetted them."

Good Luck Chuck :-/ Deirdre and Natalie are in a dramatic orgy of "let the Healing begin" cue the calumet and sage smoke and tribal drumming. Hopefully you'll get more defectors who are as hard-assed and merciless as you and with the money and clout to do something about it. Given the track record of institutions cleaning up their act..... :-[ I know they aren't the RCC, DC, Brussels, The City, various CPS, et cetera. but, it is really, really hard to get convictions except for patsies and low-ranking dummies. Maybe civil suits?

"My expulsion has turned out to be a very good thing, because it deprives them of the one legitimate excuse they might have used, which is that they do not concern themselves with anything but professional activities. That is eminently not true, so it serves as useful evidence of what they are, and what they are not, willing to tolerate."

Agreed, BadWords and BadThoughts that make FeelBad don't exactly equal sticking body parts in children for sexual pleasure, or helping to cover that up.

" Even if they belatedly expel Kramer now, it will be obvious that they knowingly tolerated him for over a decade and are only acting under external pressure. They are damned by the combination of their actions and inactions."

"Hears paper shredders smokin, drill bits snappin, 404s file not found"
Not that it really will do any good, They aren't the IRS fer Gawd's sake. (okay, maybe I do have some small glimmer of hope that at least ONE pedorapist network and their enablers go down and go down HARD)

Blogger CM June 24, 2014 8:37 AM  

deep inside they have to know that the general public (as of yet) still widely regards child molesters & their accomplices as notably worse than those who merely observe racial differences or decline to support gay "marriage".

I don't think they could ever convince people to be supportive of child molestation for the same reason they were ok with "gay marriage". The "what if it was your child" tends to be a very powerful motivator for most lefties...

The people who are rabid supporters of this stuff are still fringe and hard left... they need the support of far more central lefties than just themselves.

And no matter how horrid and misguided their ultimate choices are, most would rather abort their kids than make them f*ck fodder for a pedo.

Anonymous anti semite June 24, 2014 8:38 AM  

Anyone who attacks Ed Kramer is an antisemite.

Anonymous VD June 24, 2014 8:44 AM  

I just want to point out that DragonCon itself has been trying for a decade to distance itself from Kramer and finally succeeded last year in buying out his shares so that he no longer makes money off of the con.

It's informative to note that DragonCon was trying to do so for more than a decade. Meanwhile, neither the Scalzi- nor the Gould-run SFWA made any effort to expel or even criticize a known child molester.

Anonymous VD June 24, 2014 8:51 AM  

From Ed Kramer's archived web site: "He has also chaired the 1990 Origins convention, the World Fantasy Convention and the Nebula Awards Weekend, both in 1992."

Anonymous Dick D June 24, 2014 8:52 AM  

Let the popcorn flow.

Anonymous NateM June 24, 2014 8:56 AM  

Wait, Kramer is JEWISH?! ANTISEMITE!

And the best part is their own talk of supporting and rewarding the things they want to represent them. They set up the noise. Hell Vox didn't even put their neck in it, he just pointed to it and they hopped up on the stool sarcastically saying they enjoyed the attention. He Will kick the stool out though

Anonymous Strange Aeons June 24, 2014 8:56 AM  

...with the observable exception of Jerry Ahern, apparently...

Anonymous takin' a look June 24, 2014 8:57 AM  

http://rudetonotice.blogspot.com/2010/04/guerrilla-warfare.html

Awesome article. From time to time I go back and read this, it grounds me in a way given the insanity of this world.

Sadly though, it appears Drasius Kedys was silenced.

http://metroeireann.com/article/the-story-of-drasius-kedys,2557

Anonymous NateM June 24, 2014 8:57 AM  

*noose* rather

Anonymous Dick D June 24, 2014 9:00 AM  

Christian in Hollyweird:

It is a "Who, whom?" thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who,_whom%3F.

Anonymous YIH June 24, 2014 9:00 AM  

From the ''free ed'' link:
Comments from Attorneys
Bob Barr

It's not only a gross violation of speedy trial laws and provisions in the Constitution, but I believe is also violation of the bill of rights provision against cruel and unusual punishment.

-- Bob Barr, Former U.S. House of Representatives

I'll give Bob the benefit of the doubt here. As that particular quote makes plain, it doesn't have context. It could be directly about the case and just as equally something Bob said that wasn't even related.
And yes, I'm aware that Bob's congressional district was in the Atlanta area.
Though it wouldn't surprise me that they lifted that quote just to make it appear Bob Barr is speaking out against this case.
From the PJ media link:
Benyamin Cohen, editor of the Atlanta-based American Jewish Life, to publish a hit piece on Kramer’s critics that claimed everyone from the judge assigned the case to Nancy Collins and Joe Christ were anti-Semites.
Now take into account where and why the ADL was founded the puzzle pieces just keep falling into place don't they?

Blogger Buddy E. June 24, 2014 9:02 AM  

Watching this is getting to be more entertaining than the snowden/nsa drip, drip, drip. Couldn't happen to a better bunch of nitwits either.

Anonymous bob k. mando June 24, 2014 9:05 AM  

Dick D June 24, 2014 8:52 AM
Let the popcorn flow.




oh crap.

i'm out of butter and the salt is running low.

Anonymous Hunsdon June 24, 2014 9:09 AM  

@ Strange Aeons

Seeing Ahern's name in there kind of broke my heart.

Anonymous Ludwig von Homo June 24, 2014 9:11 AM  

fun summer project:
1) Get the whole SFWA membership list
2) Run every name through the National Sex Offender database

Blogger buzzardist June 24, 2014 9:15 AM  

The left loves to bandy about claims like "Silence is complicity," but the same never applies when the fingers are being pointed at them.

We're complicit in racism when we don't speak out against it. We're complicit in sexism if we don't speak out against it. Shoot, we're complicit in these things even if we speak out against them just by virtue of being the wrong sex or race. Complicit, complicit, complicity...everyone is complicit. But for some reason, the left loves giving free passes to artists, even for something as damnable as child molestation, and they refuse to accept any label of complicity, even when they are busy actively praising the artist. Roman Polanski, Michael Jackson, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Ed Kramer...the left has a long pattern of excusing, enabling, and abetting child rapists.

Blogger Guitar Man June 24, 2014 9:17 AM  

While I'm really enjoying the obvious cover up of the SFWA, who harbor their known pedos, it is extremely necessary that this comes out. The Lord will come down hard on those who harm innocent people. I'm wondering if SF has a culture of child abuse not unlike Hollywood and the Catholic Church in the US.

Blogger Nate June 24, 2014 9:19 AM  

and lest anyone believe that VP is the only place where folks are angry about this... I would point to Reddit. This is not a controversy limited to VP.

Blogger Nate June 24, 2014 9:22 AM  

i do urge the tiniest bit of caution when burning the witches though. Remember.. there is a big difference between defending an accused person and defending a convicted or admitted person.

Its entirely possible that some of the people that supported this monster during the trial honestly didn't believe he did what he did. Now.. that is a charity... and it is not a charity you are morally required to apply... but it is something to at least keep in the back of ones mind.

Anonymous Red Comet June 24, 2014 9:26 AM  

I keep up with the comics scene and, as left-wing as it can be, they at least denounced Kramer and organized a boycott of Dragon*Con until the people on the board completely cut ties with Kramer, which they eventually did.

Anonymous Salt June 24, 2014 9:29 AM  

These idiots opened the floodgates by stating openly that writers should be judged upon their politics which, incidentally, includes those proclivities they endorse or oppose.

"in a very clear attempt to smear these upstanding and entirely non-criminal individuals by association."

The hypocrisy, it astounds.

Anonymous LGrin June 24, 2014 9:33 AM  

"Meanwhile, neither the Scalzi- nor the Gould-run SFWA made any effort to expel or even criticize a known Child molester"

To echo Nate's point (whoa... I can't believe I just said that), but can you call him a "known" child molester prior to Dec-2013?

Anonymous bob k. mando June 24, 2014 9:33 AM  

buzzardist June 24, 2014 9:15 AM
but the same never applies when the fingers are being pointed at them.



you know, the SFWA would love to come down on Ed about this. really, they would.

but you see, now that Vox has put his oar in and muddied the water, the entire debate process has been contaminated.

any member of the Warren who upbraids Ed is almost certain to run afoul of lines of criticism already used by Vox. and to use the same lines of reasoning as Vox is to associate with Vox.

and Vox, being anathema and beyond the pale, cannot be associated with.

so, you can see their quandary.



takin' a look June 24, 2014 7:59 AM
all I can think of is Whoopi Goldberg



i'm missing this reference. what about Whoopi? did she sexually assault Wheaton or something?

Anonymous bob k. mando June 24, 2014 9:37 AM  

LGrin June 24, 2014 9:33 AM
but can you call him a "known" child molester prior to Dec-2013?



"18 years after his first arrest for aggravated child molestation, 14 years after his arrest on three counts of child molestation, three years after arrest in Connecticut for "risk of injury to a minor"

any rational person would be asking serious questions of anyone, male or female, with the above established record.

Anonymous VD June 24, 2014 9:41 AM  

To echo Nate's point (whoa... I can't believe I just said that), but can you call him a "known" child molester prior to Dec-2013?

Why do you think Dragoncon was trying to cut ties with him for over 10 years. SFWA, on the other hand, was DEFENDING him.

Blogger Bogey June 24, 2014 9:42 AM  

Wait, he was held seven years without a trial? But right when I was about to feel sorry for him I read that when he was finally let go he spent his freedom pursuing his old pervy inclinations. To make matters worse even the second time around he still has defenders.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 June 24, 2014 9:45 AM  

Its entirely possible that some of the people that supported this monster during the trial honestly didn't believe he did what he did. Now.. that is a charity... and it is not a charity you are morally required to apply... but it is something to at least keep in the back of ones mind.

Yes, that is possible. But understand that many of these people are literally incapable of admitting to their own errors in judgement. This is why they played the race card following Kramer's conviction. Because they have no objective truth, they cannot be wrong.

And thus we see the full arrogance of the Left on full display. They cannot be wrong. It must be everyone else who is wrong.

There I go getting all philosophical...

Anonymous NateM June 24, 2014 9:50 AM  

Benyamin Cohen, editor of the Atlanta-based American Jewish Life, to publish a hit piece on Kramer’s critics that claimed everyone from the judge assigned the case to Nancy Collins and Joe Christ were anti-Semites."

Of COURSE he was! He's such a gentile he has Christ right in his name!

Blogger Bogey June 24, 2014 9:54 AM  

Tell them "gay is good" or "children need a kind and knowledgeable sexual teacher" enough times and they'll not only buy it, they'll tell you you're evil for rejecting it.

And thus we see the full arrogance of the Left on full display. They cannot be wrong. It must be everyone else who is wrong.

Named a fallacy, though reliable, the "slippery slope" it follows that tolerating the most usual perversion of Homosexuality will lead to accepting the most unusual.

Anonymous YIH June 24, 2014 9:56 AM  

bob k mando:
i'm missing this reference. what about Whoopi?
From Wikipedia: Goldberg created controversy when on September 28, 2009, during a discussion of Roman Polanski's case, she opined that Polanski's rape of a thirteen-year-old in 1977[29][30] was not "rape-rape".[31]

Blogger Bogey June 24, 2014 10:00 AM  

Whoopi is an idiot, I read the account if Polanski's victim was an adult it would have still been considered rape.

Anonymous hygate June 24, 2014 10:05 AM  

"in a very clear attempt to smear these upstanding and entirely non-criminal individuals by association."

Hey, opinions have consequences, or haven't you heard.

If I wasn't a Christian I would believe in karma.

Anonymous takin' a look June 24, 2014 10:05 AM  

" bob k. mando June 24, 2014 9:33 AM

i'm missing this reference. what about Whoopi?"

"Whoopi: "I know it wasn't rape-rape. It was something else but I don't believe it was rape-rape." in reference to Roman Polanski on the View a few years back.

"did she sexually assault Wheaton or something?"

(laughs)......ewwwww. Sorry, that image was a mixture of repulsive and hilarious at the same time.

Blogger CM June 24, 2014 10:06 AM  

I could never understand how "slippery slope" is a fallacy when applied to human behavior.

Anonymous Anonymous June 24, 2014 10:13 AM  

>i'm missing this reference. what about Whoopi? did she sexually assault Wheaton or something?

Whoopi Goldberg defended Roman Polanksi by saying his raping of a 13-year old girl wasn't rape-rape. Because he's an artist and one of them and so whatever he did, it couldn't be bad.

Blogger Giraffe June 24, 2014 10:15 AM  

Why do you think Dragoncon was trying to cut ties with him for over 10 years. SFWA, on the other hand, was DEFENDING him.

To give them every shred of the benefit of the doubt, Dragoncon might have been trying to dump him because of the accusation, not because of knowledge of a crime.

This sort of gives them an out. If they immediately summon their rabbit rage and kick him out, they can claim they didn't know and presumed him innocent.

I doubt they will do that.

Anonymous hygate June 24, 2014 10:17 AM  

Like Nate, I also believe that some of his supporters may not have believed he was a child molester, at first. In the pre-internet era they may not have been aware of his multiple arrests. And of course their own prejudices would influence their judgement. Bradley's "not thinking much of Georgia" for instance. And he would have acted perfectly normal around them.

But at some point that belief in his innocence would have become untenable. Apparently Dragoncon started trying to disassiociate from the pedophile in 2000. The SFWA?

Crickets.

Anonymous Geek Simpson June 24, 2014 10:20 AM  

This whole thing has completely ruined Big Bang Theory for me.

Anonymous Josh June 24, 2014 10:24 AM  

Eh, big bang theory has been pretty terrible since Leonard and penny got together.

Blogger CM June 24, 2014 10:26 AM  

Whoopi has willfully chosen the conviction over the stated facts of the case. He pled to a lesser charge of statutory rape, so the record has him down as "not rape-rape". And because he isn't a convicted rapist, than it must not be true.

This is where most of my issues with the justice system come in. If you think the guy did THAT, don't offer plea deals for lesser offenses. Its manipulative to innocent people and its misleading to the public on criminals.

Trial by jury should be default. Not plea bargains.

Anonymous bob k. mando June 24, 2014 10:28 AM  

i must say Vox, that PJMedia link needs to be highlighted more strongly:
http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-sicko-side-of-the-sci-fi-circuit/?singlepage=true
"In fact, for more than a decade Dragon*Con participants, from the celebrity guests to his fellow founders, witnessed increasingly obvious predatory behavior from Kramer toward young boys. But instead of a scandal, Kramer’s peculiarities became an inside joke:
The stories about Kramer, the sidelong glances and eye-rolling, the snickering behind his back were there almost from the start."

people KNEW. and people refused to notify the authorities.

this is Penn State all over again.

Anonymous Michael June 24, 2014 10:32 AM  

Maximo, "Is it too soon to say that a whole lot of evidence points to the SFWA as a criminal organization? Where's the Justice Department? Oh, that's right."

After homosexuality (SS'M) and polygamy are given full recognition and protection under every federal and state law, pedophilia and bestiality are next on their list for "equal rights" battles. Their strategy is to inject chaos into society via the deliberate undermining of traditional (i.e. Christian) moral values, thus creating social upheaval. They routinely engage in propaganda, all the while denying doing so. For instance, the TV show Cosmos is nothing more than agitprop for the materialist worldview, that those who deny evolution, climate change and socialism are in a state of ignorance hinging on Naziism (they even aired footage of Nazis). They are a cult in every sense of the word.

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman

Anonymous Porky June 24, 2014 10:33 AM  

I'm trying to find a way to understand this. These people don't really (like, in their souls) support child molesters, do they? Is their membership to the herd that important to them?

Once, when the Michael Jackson stuff was hot in the news, I was in a meeting with a guy who knew Michael well and had worked with him extensively. Someone asked him, "So do you think he did it?"

The guy paused for a split second and said "Yeah." Then added "but he's also done so much good for kids over the years I don't think this is such a big deal." The toadies in the room nodded like bobble heads. I tried to pick up my jaw from the floor.

So to answer your question, yeah. Membership to the herd is EVERYTHING to these people.

Anonymous bob k. mando June 24, 2014 10:41 AM  

Porky June 24, 2014 10:33 AM
The guy paused for a split second and said "Yeah." Then added "but he's also done so much good for kids over the years I don't think this is such a big deal."



i was participating on a board where a woman, who claimed to have been molested as a child, claimed that Michael could NOT be a child molester because "his music is so beautiful".

i shit you not.

Anonymous Chandler June 24, 2014 10:42 AM  

It's not terribly fair to blame Ellison, McCaffrey, etc. When Kramer was first charged, the most vocal member of the anti-Ed crusade was the overbearing Nancy A. Collins who, amongst other classy behavior, released an inflammatory statement that all but accused HWA president S.P. Somtow of engaging in pedophilia, a charge she was later forced to retract. Collins struck me and many others as caring more about furthering her career than saving the children. More info here:

http://jjchandler.wordpress.com/2013/02/27/the-dragoncon-boycott-and-why-don-murphy-and-nancy-a-collins-can-shove-it-up-their-asses/

Anonymous hygate June 24, 2014 10:45 AM  

I read the article at the link provided by bob k. mondo and I retract my earlier post. He was blatant in his activities, taking no care to conceal them whatsoever. Anyone who didn't know what he was up to did so willfully. They refused to believe their lying eyes.

Blogger Nate June 24, 2014 10:53 AM  

hey guys... which twitter feed was Vox attacked for using? anyone with the free time should be able to dig through that twitter feed and see if it was used to support any of the pederasts.

Anonymous Josh June 24, 2014 10:57 AM  

Sfwaauthors, iirc

Anonymous hygate June 24, 2014 11:01 AM  

@Chandler

What I'm getting from the post you linked to is that Nancy Collins was a a premature anti-facist who cares about kids too much and not enough about the awesomeness that is Dragoncon.

Anonymous takin' a look June 24, 2014 11:03 AM  

"CM June 24, 2014 10:26 AM

"Trial by jury should be default. Not plea bargains."

I agreed with you on everything pretty much until this sentence.
More than 90% of cases are plea-bargained down unless they are really high-profile. Even with that, the backlogs on the Courts are HORRENDOUS. Even if you were to farm out cases in high crime areas to low crime areas, it would take YEARS to just to go through every single one of them w/r to trail by jury. That's providing all crime ended tomorrow, Full Stop.

but you have a very good point, our "Just us" system very often functions like the Al Capone case in miniature in hundreds of cases everyday across the country. For example, a very significant portion of the criminals in jail are there for drug charges, because the murder, assault, rape, et. cetera charges couldn't stick. Now, we all know the infamous Al Capone was guilty of a LOT more than avoiding taxes, but we don't know if the fellow who plea bargained to "assault" actually violently raped and mutilated a woman and did so over a period of several months. Yes, cases like these do get plea bargained down. Horrifying as it sounds.

Prosecuters very often throw a ton of charges against an accused in the hopes at least one will stick.

There's a lot more to say regarding the "Just us" system. But the main point being that, it is nothing like CSI. L and O. it is understaffed, hugely corrupt and one thing you'll notice, most of the criminals are black and hispanic, especially the repeat offenders.

Anonymous bob k. mando June 24, 2014 11:07 AM  

Chandler June 24, 2014 10:42 AM
It's not terribly fair to blame Ellison, McCaffrey, etc. When Kramer was first charged, the most vocal member of the anti-Ed crusade was the overbearing Nancy A. Collins



it IS 'terribly fair' to note that Ed trollolololed around DragonCon with his boytoys in tow. to such an extent that people were laughing about it.

IF you prefer to associate with overt evil because someone speaking the truth doesn't tickle your fancy?
THEN you're pretty damn evil yourself.



hygate June 24, 2014 10:45 AM
I read the article at the link provided by bob k. mondo


that's actually the hyperlink under "Edward E. Kramer" in Vox's original essay.

that's what i'm saying. anyone skimming the post might think it was just a link to the Ed's wiki page or something.

it's not.

it's a full on documentation of Ed's lying, abuse, slander and manipulation extending over decades.

Blogger Some dude June 24, 2014 11:18 AM  

@VD

Seems like at this point they're just hoping you'll eventually get bored and go away.

(laughs)

There, fixed it for ya

Tho what would truly be awesome, is if you and your fellow members of the club of Evil would record your own evil laugh, and put it on youtube so your enemies can hear the sound of your cruel and hate filled amusement as they drink their own tears of bitterness and despair!

Anonymous Difster June 24, 2014 11:24 AM  

A vain hope. It's not about me anymore. It may have started out that way, but we're dealing with some serious monsters here.

Isn't there a Monster Hunter we can call?

Blogger ashepherd June 24, 2014 11:51 AM  

Its entirely possible that some of the people that supported this monster during the trial honestly didn't believe he did what he did.

I've noticed that for the last 50 years trying people by public opinion has become accepted as superior to any government run criminal justice process. Trayvon Martin, Amanda Knox and a host of others. There certainly are judges and courts that are biased, but how people who just read the popular press can say their judgement is superior to a jury who by-and-large hears the facts is beyond me and is truly a scary place for society to be.

Blogger Nate June 24, 2014 12:03 PM  

BINGO!

a search for "@sfwaauthors dragoncon" on twitter shows many results where the channel was used to promote dragoncon while the pederast was still making money of it.

BOOM.

Anonymous Bz June 24, 2014 12:05 PM  

"These people don't really (like, in their souls) support child molesters, do they?"

Ask them if they have any. Souls, that is.

Blogger CM June 24, 2014 12:11 PM  

Thanks for your take, tal.

Reading the comments on the ed kramer link and found one from Nancy Collins...

I did not seek this man out. He found me. And, in retrospect, I realize his interest in collaborating with me only occurred after he became aware I had a stepson (then around 7 years old) and several nephews (all around the same age, one of whom is developmentally challenged). I have come to understand all of Kramer’s supposed friendship was nothing more than grooming of myself and my then-husband, so he could have access to the children in my life. Shortly before his arrest, he, too, tried to talk me into allowing him to take my stepson on an unsupervised camping trip. I told him no. The look of barely suppressed rage on his face was the same as in his 2000 booking photo. *That’s* when I knew, without a doubt,that the rumors were true.

Her account says he got increasingly more brazen in the months before his arrest, and that it was hard to pin anything on him because it was rumor.

Its disturbing. I wasn't aware of SciFi culture until college when I dated a guy who was into all of it. I enjoyed gaming and D&D - it was new. But reading this... and the MZB... and everything that has been said here about pink s/f and the complicity in depraved culture, I could see my first boyfriend being an active participant in it.

Being married now to a man who is into some of the sci fi stuff, I could see us wanting to attend a convention or 2 with our kids in the future. I'm glad I know about this now before I risked putting my young son at risk in an environment that harbors this behavior.

Anonymous Eric Ashley June 24, 2014 12:26 PM  

Hygate, its not karma, but check out Hosea 8:7 which is in part....

"For they sow the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind."

==================

Have someone write a short story about people like this disdaining Christianity at a party, and then at the end of the party summoning in pagan ritual the Greek gods.....not sure of Zeus' stance on this, but I do know the gods got seriously ill with someone who served human flesh for stew........so.....

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein June 24, 2014 12:27 PM  

Dick D June 24, 2014 8:52 AM
Let the popcorn flow.



oh crap.

i'm out of butter and the salt is running low.


Snowden.
Sterling.
IRS Scandal.
This.

The Ilk may create a worldwide shortage of popcorn, salt and butter....

Hey....let's blame it on climate change...

Anonymous bob k. mando June 24, 2014 12:27 PM  

hey, CM
this stuff makes you nervous?

whatever you do, do NOT look up 'Furries'.

they're so bad, even the rest of fandom can't stand them.

Blogger kurt9 June 24, 2014 12:30 PM  

The DragonCon people actually tried to disassociate themselves from Kramer, despite having a contractual relationship with him. The SFWA did nothing to disassociate themselves from Kramer, despite having NO commercial ties to him. This alone suggests complicity or willful ignorance at the minimum. The sleaziness of SFWA is disgusting.

Anonymous Daniel June 24, 2014 12:31 PM  

Funny. @sfwaauthors disclaimer: "Tweets made from this account are the sole responsibility of the feed/blog post author only. Opinions expressed within the links do not reflect those of SFWA."

So, obviously nothing on that feed praising Kramer would reflect the SFWA's stance...

Blogger ScuzzaMan June 24, 2014 12:32 PM  

Just for those who disdain the slippery slope argument, try imagining your grandfather doing this:

http://www.thelocal.de/20130201/47711

Anonymous Josh June 24, 2014 12:35 PM  

So, obviously nothing on that feed praising Kramer would reflect the SFWA's stance...

Except that those authors are clearly misusing the Twitter feed to promote activity which monetarily benefits a convicted child molester.

Blogger ScuzzaMan June 24, 2014 12:39 PM  

@Josh

Yeah, but they didn't call a member of a protected species a bad name ...

Blogger Nate June 24, 2014 12:40 PM  


"So, obviously nothing on that feed praising Kramer would reflect the SFWA's stance..."

Except we have documtary evidence to support the claim that the SFWA believes it owns that feed. It said so in its expulsion of Vox.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 24, 2014 12:43 PM  

It's primordial. Gwinnett County behaves as if it's the 14th century...

Now, I could certainly believe a rogue prosecutor went off the rails against an innocent man. We've seen it before (the Amiraults, the "Wenatchee Witch Hunt", and others). We here certainly understand about malicious prosecution, bungling police, and lying witnesses. As Nate said, a bit of caution.

But Kramer has been arrested in at least 3 different jurisdictions, and over a period of many years, and the nature of his behavior in public was clear to everyone around him.. It is highly unlikely he is the victim of malicious or misguided prosecution. Though I suppose his SWFA enablers claiming he's not guilty is a slight improvement over their previous stance with Breen and Bradley, where they admitted to what these people were and didn't care, thought their "art" excused their monstrosity. Perhaps in another twenty years they'll come around to... oh, who am I kidding, they won't be around in twenty years, will they?

Anonymous Daniel June 24, 2014 12:46 PM  

Nate, it isn't a witch hunt if no one burns at the end. Kramer's defenders defended this guy...a guy who started faking his religion and his health problems at the time of the first charges.

Don't tell me any of these innocent and misled defenders of child molestation hadn't, at the very least, seen Blue Velvet.

These were people who vociferously defended him ...and now that they've been proven "fools"...they have nothing to say?

Come on Nate. In my book, until they say otherwise, very clearly, they approve of the SFWA's child-rape culture.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 24, 2014 12:48 PM  

Yeah, but they didn't call a member of a protected species a bad name ...

Vox said something bad about a whale? A Manatee? A Catalina Mountain Snail?

Anonymous Daniel June 24, 2014 12:48 PM  

Except we have documtary evidence to support the claim that the SFWA believes it owns that feed. It said so in its expulsion of Vox.

I know, I just think it is funny that they have two conflicting orders. SFWA is like a short-bus Colonel Jessup.

Blogger CM June 24, 2014 12:55 PM  

I've actually heard of them... and knew a couple, and as strange as they are, at least its consensual and between adults.

Sickening, but not as bad as this imo.

Blogger CM June 24, 2014 12:57 PM  

Wasn't vox, but someone compared these guys to whale sh*t.

I can see how that's offensive to the whale.

Anonymous takin' a look June 24, 2014 12:57 PM  

"CM June 24, 2014 12:11 PM

Thanks for your take, tal"

De nada Ma'am.

Blogger Brad Andrews June 24, 2014 1:03 PM  

Nate,

I would agree with you to be cautious about jumping to conclusions. I would not defend this guy, but I have been accused of many things since I tried to take 4 children out of the foster care system into a stable adoptive family. Most people turned against us when the stuff hit the fan. So be cautious believing charges by a single child or related group of children.

I don't think our situation is anything like his and I suspect these same people would have jumped all over me with no evidence because I didn't hold the right political views.

Blogger Brad Andrews June 24, 2014 1:03 PM  

> they can't condemn evil

Yes they can, but their definition of it is way off.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 24, 2014 1:15 PM  

I agreed with you on everything pretty much until this sentence.
More than 90% of cases are plea-bargained down unless they are really high-profile. Even with that, the backlogs on the Courts are HORRENDOUS...


I understand, but if expediency is necessary, let's just shoot the accused and move on. That's about the same level of "justice" as threatening to load them up with bullshit charges in order to get them to plead to something, anything, that can go in the prosecutor's feathered cap.

No, there's no excuse for plea bargains. They are evil and unjust. Any time a plea bargain has happened, an injustice was done somewhere. Either the prosecutors charged or threatened to charge the defendant with crimes he did not commit in order to coerce him into pleading to something he did, or else they charged him with the correct crimes but agreed to lesser charges than he was guilty of. And that doesn't even take into consideration innocent men who pled guilty to something the didn't do out of fear of being put on trial with monstrous penalties if convicted.

No justice system run by mortal men will be perfect, but "efficiency" should never be a priority for a justice system, even an imperfect one.

Anonymous Amok Time June 24, 2014 1:19 PM  


SFWA= A Den of Vipers!

What an awful organization!

The Warren is circling the hutches!

Blogger Nate June 24, 2014 1:32 PM  

"Vox said something bad about a whale? A Manatee? A Catalina Mountain Snail?"

a combination of the three it turns out...

Blogger Bogey June 24, 2014 1:34 PM  

He is a player of magic. I've been in comic shops while tournaments were going on and could always hear grown men arguing with a children.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 24, 2014 1:36 PM  

a combination of the three it turns out...

I understand Catalina Mountain Snails can be pretty savage.

Blogger Marissa June 24, 2014 1:38 PM  

This morning in Gwinnett County, GA, the embattled Kramer pleaded guilty to three counts of child molestation and was sentenced to 34 months under house arrest — instead of the 20-year term recommended by the Gwinnett County DA’s office.

Again, another child molester gets sentenced so shortly, even with the 7 years he served before trial.

Thanks for the lovely dose of child molester defending, Chandler. It's certainly a wonderful thing to see you praising Kramer's manipulation of the legal system on your own blog. Gamma males, ugh.

Anonymous rycamor June 24, 2014 1:39 PM  

Sad to see Robert Sawyer's name among the Kramer defenders. I actually liked Calculating God. He also seemed to be at least somewhat favorable to Christianity, or possibly a Christian himself.

Of course, he's a Canadian, so we might chalk it up to cluelessnes.

Anonymous Anonymous June 24, 2014 1:42 PM  

Actually Sawyer has dual Canada-US citizenship.

Anonymous takin' a look June 24, 2014 1:46 PM  

Jack Amok June 24, 2014 1:15 PM

I can't disagree with your convictions in my heart. My mind is another story, you can read more on-line or just go down to your local courthouse a few times a week and sit in. it will be an eye-opener, especially if you live in a metropolitan area.

If we did as you suggest, we would need ten times the judicial and LEO forces that we have now, pro bono and court appointed attorneys (CAA) would be absolutely overwhelmed and burned out within two days, let alone two months or years. Unless the wages of CAA were competitive with law firms or offered a major incentive, such as five years of public defender service in exchange for wiping out student loans, et cetera.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 24, 2014 1:57 PM  

If we did as you suggest, we would need...

We need what we need. But does it occur to you that if we actually took crime seriously, if we jailed criminals and kept them there instead of putting them away for a few months and letting them back out time and time again, that the load on the courts might just taper off?

Plea bargains are part of that catch-and-release system. It lets the prosecutors claim a win and it lets the criminal pay a minimal penalty and get back on the streets.

Anonymous bob k. mando June 24, 2014 1:57 PM  

Jack Amok June 24, 2014 12:48 PM
Vox said something bad about a whale? A Manatee? A Catalina Mountain Snail?



i seem to remember something about a Sonoran Toad.


rycamor June 24, 2014 1:39 PM
Sad to see Robert Sawyer's name among the Kramer defenders. I actually liked Calculating God.


in my opinion, the concept was interesting, the execution was suitably workmanlike, the resolution was the type of idiotic claptrap you'd expect from an atheist.

ymmv, i haven't bothered picking up anything else by him.

Anonymous bob k. mando June 24, 2014 2:01 PM  

takin' a look June 24, 2014 1:46 PM
If we did as you suggest, we would need ten times the judicial and LEO forces that we have now, pro bono and court appointed attorneys (CAA) would be absolutely overwhelmed and burned out within two days,



if these minor offense courts are run the same way Steyn's case is being handled in Federal case, most of the workload is crap makework induced to give the lawyers something to do.

given that Steyn has experience with hearings in Canada, Australia, the UK and the US, when he makes critiques of the molasses pace of the US 'justice system', i give his opinion some credence.

Anonymous bob k. mando June 24, 2014 2:04 PM  

here we go, Vox apologizes for insulting Sonoran Toads:
http://voxday.blogspot.com/2013/06/mailvox-sincere-apology_14.html

Anonymous FL June 24, 2014 2:20 PM  

..... aaaand they've taken him off:

Kowal, Mary Robinette
Mary Robinette Kowal is the author of the GLAMOURIST [... bla bla bla... ], and John Scalzi. She lives in Chicago with her husband Rob and over a dozen manual typewriters.

Krasnoff, Barbara
brooklynwriter.com


No more Kramer in this list.

Anonymous takin' a look June 24, 2014 2:31 PM  

Jack Amok and Bob k. Mando I can't disagree with either position here. It really is a "game" one with incredibly arcane and obtuse rituals, legal codes and administrative paperwork. But that still doesn't take away from the fact that even if we streamlined the process (a big question in and of itself) eliminated much of the "catch and release" culture, our current system would still be overwhelmed if every case went to trial. This is just what I've seen once or twice in person, read on-line and correspondence. The truly frightening thing is, many of those "minor cases" as you say Bob k. Mando are of very, very bad men. Remember my Al Capone reference upthread? Worst, is the frightening numbers of bad people who consistently are brought in, and don't even make it past the jail/interrogation room because nothing sticks to them.

I live outside of a major Metropolitan area, where the "official" murder rate is laughed at, the REAL murder rate is easily 4 to seven times that annual number.

Blogger Chris Mallory June 24, 2014 2:48 PM  

"Benyamin Cohen, editor of the Atlanta-based American Jewish Life, to publish a hit piece on Kramer"

After reading this piece, I have to think that American Jewish Life is a Neo Nazi front trying to make Jews look as bad as the stereotypes make them out to be.


As for the "justice" system. We do need to do away with plea bargains. But then we also need to cut the number of people being processed through the system as well. No more victim-less crimes, require an actual victim. No more "preventative" arrests or citations.

Blogger Marissa June 24, 2014 2:53 PM  

What browser is that screenshot on?

Blogger Marissa June 24, 2014 2:56 PM  

Also Vox tweeted that Ed's website says he's been a member of SFWA for more than 20 years and that his first publication was 1992. "More than" would put his end membership date at 2013 at the least.

Anonymous VD June 24, 2014 3:03 PM  

What browser is that screenshot on?

Pale Moon on XP.

Anonymous ... June 24, 2014 3:10 PM  

Is the NAMBLA guy still listed?

Anonymous ... June 24, 2014 3:13 PM  

I would ask them on twitter the membership status of Samuel Delany ...screenshot everything.

Blogger Marissa June 24, 2014 3:13 PM  

It looks like he was an editor/writer at HarperCollins since 1990, so we can set the end membership date at 2011, at the very earliest.

Also, he opened an openlibrary account at the beginning of this month and here's the whois of his website which he updated yesterday:

https://web.archive.org/web/20140624190857/http://www.whois.com/whois/edwardekramer.com

This kinda tells me the SFWA stuff is a recent thing.

The WHOIS database was recently updated too:

Last update of WHOIS database: 2014-06-24T19:00:00Z

Anonymous YIH June 24, 2014 3:27 PM  

bob k mando:
hey, CM
this stuff makes you nervous?

whatever you do, do NOT look up 'Furries'.

they're so bad, even the rest of fandom can't stand them.

Oh, god yes, almost as bad as 'dinosaur erotica'

Anonymous Jack Amok June 24, 2014 3:38 PM  

I live outside of a major Metropolitan area, where the "official" murder rate is laughed at, the REAL murder rate is easily 4 to seven times that annual number.

Who are the victims?

Anonymous VD June 24, 2014 3:44 PM  

I would ask them on twitter the membership status of Samuel Delany ...screenshot everything.

He's not a member. They just honored him at the most recent awards ceremony.

Anonymous rycamor June 24, 2014 3:45 PM  

bob k. mando June 24, 2014 1:57 PM
rycamor June 24, 2014 1:39 PM
Sad to see Robert Sawyer's name among the Kramer defenders. I actually liked Calculating God.

in my opinion, the concept was interesting, the execution was suitably workmanlike, the resolution was the type of idiotic claptrap you'd expect from an atheist.


Yeah, the ending was a #fail. Complete flop after all the buildup. Take something with the potential for much beauty and greatness, and then turn it into an embarrassing grotesquery at the end. Which is why I haven't bothered to read any of this other work. I guess it says something about the rest of the sci-fi milieu over the past couple decades that this was still a standout book. After reading "Awake in the Night Land" I am in awe just imagining what John C. Wright could have done with that premise.

Anonymous takin' a look June 24, 2014 3:47 PM  

Jack Amok June 24, 2014 3:38 PM

Mostly Gangbangers.

Blogger Marissa June 24, 2014 3:54 PM  

article from Jason Stanford in February 2014

Kramer's long evasion of justice for his victims ended in December 2013 when he pleaded guilty to three counts of child molestation. However, since then I've yet to hear any words of apology from Kramer's many defenders in the SF/F genre.

You see, during all this a number of notable SF/F authors voiced their support for Kramer. Now obviously these defenders didn't enable or help Kramer commit his crimes. That was totally on Kramer. But by coming to Kramer's defense they enabled him to claim the role of victim in all this. That helped him draw out his trial for more than a decade, which delayed justice from being served.

To the credit of SF/F fandom, people eventually threatened to boycott Dragon*Con unless they severed ties with Kramer, which they did. But I've heard no apologies from any of Kramer's other extremely vocal defenders in the genre.

Just like Hollywood, many in the SF/F community are too willing to look away from sexual abuse and child molestation when it is inconvenient to either themselves or the genre. However, doing this actually weakens the genre and harms all of us, as it encourages a culture of silence and allows predators like Kramer to continue harming new victims.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 24, 2014 3:59 PM  

Mostly Gangbangers.

Naturally. So you focus first on catching, prosecuting, and removing from society the people who cause trouble for members of decent society. If resources are limited, focus them on protecting people who don't willingly engage in violent activity. Once that problem is under control, you can decide if it's worth it to police gangs who just want to shoot each other and leave the decent folk out of it.

If you have a big problem to solve, you simplify what you can and tackle the rest in chunks.

Anonymous VD June 24, 2014 4:00 PM  

Well, there is one SFWA member who wasn't willing to look the other way. Sanford is a twit, but give him credit for that. Of course, they ignored him and didn't even remove Kramer from the membership list.

Anonymous Razoraid June 24, 2014 4:07 PM  

As evidenced by Kramer's behavior, pedophiles can not be rehabilitated. The SWFA must be proud.

Blogger Herb Nowell June 24, 2014 4:07 PM  

@VD: Why do you think Dragoncon was trying to cut ties with him for over 10 years. SFWA, on the other hand, was DEFENDING him.

By the same token I'm not sure that the cited promotion of Origins, the World Fantasy Convention or the Nebula Awards Weekend" automatically reflect badly on their organizers. We never see him doing any again and given the timeline it might not have been known locally here in Atlanta at that point much less well known in the general community. I think this especially applies to Origins given it is a different, if highly overlapping, fandom (I live in Atlanta and don't go to DragonCon as it has little to no interest but I'd love to go to Origins and GenCon one year).

However, this points to another, admittedly minor, problem with the cover-ups. When it happens it splashes on possibly innocent parties who honored or employed briefly somebody during the period when "everyone knows but no one talks about it" because they might not be part of the everyone but people will assume they were. I never really got into sci-fi fandom and I'm glad I didn't because this is not what I want to be associated with (similar I was SCA active in my 20s and now realize people will group me with people like this due to MZB despite never having been in the same area as her). It also makes me less inclined to go to cons and wonder who the next person I've spent years reading and collecting their books will turn out to be a child molester.

For very honest parties it will even create guilt because they (unknowingly) possibly enabled the molesters by giving new territory and increased credibility. Much like public schools that fire teachers who molest students but make no note of why they allow other schools to be infected. For those wondering why I'm using public schools and not the Catholic Church, based on recent revalations in California US children attending public schools right now, today have a greater risk of being molested than children in the Catholic Church in the US ever were:

The crosshairs here are upon the Catholic Church, which paid out some $1.2 billion to more than 1,000 victims of abuse under a similar “window” opened in 2003. A secondary target is the Boy Scouts.

Even over the many decades that the 2003 window covered — 1950 to 2005 — those 1,000 victims present a shocking number. How much more shocking, then, that in the Los Angeles Unified School District alone some 600 teachers over a four-year period were fired, have resigned, or were facing sanctions because of “inappropriate conduct” relating to students. The lumping of cases together somewhat obscures things: About 60 teachers faced punishment for outright sexual relations with students (or other minors), while others were punished for offenses such as showing pornography to students, forcing students to act out “master and slave” sexual role-play scenarios, taking a student on a field trip to a sex shop, lining girls up in the classroom to judge their relative breast size before having them do jumping jacks, and old-fashioned sexual harassment. Some of these teachers had complaints in their files dating back years that had not been acted upon, while another teacher, in an episode unhappily reminiscent of Catholic priest-shuffling practices, had been in hot water at six different schools for sexual misconduct. If we limit ourselves to those cases of actual sexual relations, then a little crude extrapolation from Los Angeles’s 662,140 students to California’s 6.2 million total public-school students suggests that, in California each year, seven to eight times as much sexual misconduct takes place in public schools as in the Catholic Church.


(source: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/358552/california-protects-pedophile-teachers-kevin-d-williamson, emphasis mine)

At this point our best case may be Catholic Church rates and I'm suspecting they're closer to public school rates (pink scifi being closer to public school teachers than Catholics).

Anonymous Mavwreck June 24, 2014 4:42 PM  

I can understand not acting based on arrests or accusations. As Nate said, some people might give him the benefit of the doubt if there was no admission of guilt or conviction.

Besides, wouldn't removing a member due to alleged (but unproven) criminal conduct have opened them up to a lawsuit? :)

Anonymous Jack Amok June 24, 2014 4:57 PM  

Besides, wouldn't removing a member due to alleged (but unproven) criminal conduct have opened them up to a lawsuit? :)

No more so than removing a member for tweeting something unpopular with the membership.

They kicked Vox out for his political views and personal beliefs, and did so quite rapidly. They didn't kick Kramer or Bradley out for their beliefs and actions. They celebrated Delany despite (perhaps because of) his advocacy for the North American Man-Boy Love Association and it's agenda of child molestation.

They have no excuses. Who they are is quite clear.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 24, 2014 5:05 PM  

For very honest parties it will even create guilt because they (unknowingly) possibly enabled the molesters by giving new territory and increased credibility. Much like public schools that fire teachers who molest students but make no note of why they allow other schools to be infected. ...The crosshairs here are upon the Catholic Church, which paid out some $1.2 billion to more than 1,000 victims of abuse under a similar “window” opened in 2003. A secondary target is the Boy Scouts.

Yes. It's worth noting the media tried to make a big, big deal of BSA's "secret files" which a lawsuit brought by a guy who claimed to have been molested by an adult leaders a couple of decades ago got publicized through discovery.

"Oh, the Boy Scouts were keeping files on suspected pedos! They must've been covering it up!"

The reality was exactly the opposite. The people in those "ineligible files" were people who had accusations leveled against them that were credible enough to raise concerns, but for whatever reason were never prosecuted and had no criminal history that would show up on a background check.

So BSA kicked them out and kept a file on them so if they tried to register with a different troop in a different part of the country they could be detected and turned away before they endangered more kids.

Anonymous takin' a look June 24, 2014 5:59 PM  

"Jack Amok June 24, 2014 3:59 PM

Naturally. So you focus first on catching, prosecuting, and removing from society the people who cause trouble for members of decent society. If resources are limited, focus them on protecting people who don't willingly engage in violent activity. Once that problem is under control, you can decide if it's worth it to police gangs who just want to shoot each other and leave the decent folk out of it.

If you have a big problem to solve, you simplify what you can and tackle the rest in chunks."

True enough, for example, I've heard if just a core thousand gangbangers were removed in Chicago, crime rates would go way down.

But then again, I read SBPDL.com and know better :-[

Anonymous takin' a look June 24, 2014 7:28 PM  

"Chris Mallory June 24, 2014 2:48 PM

"Benyamin Cohen, editor of the Atlanta-based American Jewish Life, to publish a hit piece on Kramer"

After reading this piece, I have to think that American Jewish Life is a Neo Nazi front trying to make Jews look as bad as the stereotypes make them out to be."

Sadly...no. make sure you have a pillow on the floor for your jaw.

"Shibes Meadow June 24, 2014 7:09 PM

http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/360657"

"United Nations representative for Aguda, United States Holocaust Memorial Council, and Penn Law School Adjunct Professor Harry Reicher's Amicus to the Court, resolved: "Treatment such as that endured by Ed Kramer is not only unacceptable, but deeply antithetical, indeed offensive, to notions of justice that are deeply ingrained in the legal culture of United States, and that have suffused, and found their replication in, the post-World War II human rights movement."

Chutzpah doesn't even begin to describe it.

And Bob Barr proves himself another whore for the Saturday People :-/

Blogger hadley June 24, 2014 7:33 PM  

Well who did Kramer molest? Girls? Or little white boys? Based upon the indifference exhibited by Anne McCaffrey and others of the female persuasion, I expect the latter. Please provide (not explicit) details if you know them.

Blogger hadley June 24, 2014 7:56 PM  

I followed the links and came upon this:

http://atlantajewish.com/content/2004/edkramer.html

It is important to realize that for Jews, "freeing the captive [Jew]" is an affirmative religious duty, God bless 'em. Jews held captive by gentiles, that is.

They are collectively loyal to the uttermost, as I hope we wil be when we are reduced to a minority in our own land.

But you do have to take the allegations with a grain of salt. In Israel, for example, men are imprisoned for years, without trial, for refusing to "voluntarily" give their wife a divorce.

In the US it is a bit different. One cannot imprison a Jew for not "voluntarily" signing divorce papers, so they are kidnapped and tortured instead.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 24, 2014 8:37 PM  

True enough, for example, I've heard if just a core thousand gangbangers were removed in Chicago, crime rates would go way down.

But then again, I read SBPDL.com and know better :-[


Think about it this way. You have a boat. It has a leak in it. You have a bilge pump. If the pump is big enough, you can keep the boat afloat. If the pump isn't big enough, the boat will sink.

But it doesn't matter how big the pump is if the outlet hose drains back into the boat. You've got to pump the water out of the boat.

Our justice system doesn't pump the water out of the boat. We can keep making it bigger and bigger, adding more horsepower and capacity, but until we get the outlet hose over the side, we're going to be sinking.

Blogger SQT June 24, 2014 9:35 PM  

My jaw has been on the floor for the last week. I have been a big fan of fantasy for a looong time, but not a con-goer and had no idea about MZB, Kramer or Delany. I am simply astounded at the blind eye the SFWA has shown to the cancer in their organization.

Scalzi, Hines and Kowal can go into denial mode all they want but the cat is out of the bag. There is no way they can claim the high road over their expulsion of Vox now that all of the organization's dirty secrets are being exposed.

It makes me glad that I didn't like MZB back in the day and never read many of her books. But, I swear, I'm hesitant to pick up anything written by a SFWA member these days. The rot seems so deep...

Anonymous takin' a look June 24, 2014 9:40 PM  

"Jack Amok June 24, 2014 8:37 PM"

Why do I have this sick feeling? Pass me the Dramamine!
Oh, btw, nice dogwhistle, you RAY-CISSSS!!!! /snark ;-)

Seriously though, I understand your analogy. perhaps when saner days return.

Blogger Nate June 24, 2014 10:27 PM  

"Well who did Kramer molest? Girls? Or little white boys?"

Kramer was never seen without his harem of little boys with him.

Blogger Herb Nowell June 24, 2014 11:50 PM  

It makes me glad that I didn't like MZB back in the day and never read many of her books. But, I swear, I'm hesitant to pick up anything written by a SFWA member these days. The rot seems so deep...

I did enjoy a lot of MZB back in the day (the day being the early 80s) and had been enjoying the anthology series she edited. I'd been working on collecting all of the later (Swords & Sorceresses is well into its 20s) but, even though I'd be buying used or later ones authorized by her estate but obviously not edited by her. I'm very, very torn about doing so even though it is impossible now for her to benefit from it (and except for the newer ones for her estate to benefit). I wonder if the daughter she abused is the one who benefits from the estate's licensing of the anthology name.

I'm also glad over the past decade I've been reading more detective fiction than scifi/fantasy (in fact, Butcher did a lot to get me back into fantasy when I tried a Dresden book...Harry's no Matt Scudder and Butcher's no Block but they're fun) as well as more history.

For much of the late 90s to late aughts my scifi/fantasy reading was also skewed heavily to used books mostly from when I was in HS or earlier. Much of the recent awards crap and SFWA crap and so on has made that look better, although between the people who supported Mike and Barry constituted a new list to check which I've enjoyed. Along the way I've also learned the "check for Baen" filter (aside: it seems "check for Roc" might work even though it's a Penguin imprint...thoughts?). Now, even going back to the past isn't safe from risking reading from a celebrated pedophile.

Blogger SQT June 25, 2014 1:58 AM  

@Herb,

I really got into fantasy back in the 80's too (I'm an 80's high school grad) but never got heavily into MZB. I tried to read Mists of Avalon but hated Gwenhwyfar. There's a part of me that wouldn't mind reading or buying her work if I thought it benefitted her kids but it still gives me the creeps just thinking about the person she must have been.

I love detective/mystery fiction too and find myself going back to that these days because it seems safe. I read a lot of Agatha Christie when I was a kid and never lost my fondness for the genre. But I have also been browsing the Baen shelf and think Larry Correia is a lot of fun. I think the Penguin imprints are kind of hit or miss because there are a lot of urban fantasies that are hugely feminist in nature (I admit it, sometimes I like an urban fantasy) but Tor seems to have the strongest political bias as far as I can tell.

There's a part of me that has sympathy for the authors who want no part of any of this controversy and are keeping their heads down and hoping it'll blow over. But it's like anything political-- you can only avoid the consequences of staying quiet for so long. I wish I had a guidebook of who to read and who to avoid. I guess I should be glad for the internet-- I know more now than I ever did before.

Anonymous Idle Hitler June 25, 2014 2:37 AM  

I told you Vox to watch out for the gay Jew sex.


If only they had listened.

Blogger hadley June 26, 2014 8:38 PM  

"So BSA kicked them out and kept a file on them so if they tried to register with a different troop in a different part of the country they could be detected and turned away before they endangered more kids."

The BSA has been in a war with pedophiles for generations. It is undeclared, but nonetheless real and quite vicious. Think "counterespionage" with a new crop of completely unknown spies and sleeper agents popping up every year. I know of no other organization that takes the continuous assault by homosexual kiddy-diddlers as seriously as the BSA. The training, the rules, the vetting, the reporting, the investigations are all phenomenal. And they are like the CIA or NSA: their struggle is secret. They cannot publicize it or let on how much planning and organization it takes to keep homosexual peter out of little boys' bums and mouths.

If the BSA and other organizations like them ever told the tales, it would freak out every decent parent in the country and deal a devastating blow to YMCAs, summer camps, Big Brothers, Big Sisters, Girl Scouts, etc.

If you know a cop that is trained to prosecute kiddy-diddlers, give him the facts of the Ed Kramer case with all the obvious grooming, cultivating, single-mom-outreach, group "caving" trips in which only one boy is singled out for "special attention", (boy) fashion model agenting, sleep-overs, etc. and ask them what they think. They will laugh out loud. This guy was a textbook kiddy-diddler and a true grandmaster at it.

Anonymous Anonymous June 29, 2014 6:16 PM  

#1- There's a poster above posting as "Chandler" and providing a link to my blog. I would just like to make clear that this post was not in fact by me. I didn't even know about this conversation or this blog and would have continued to remain ignorant of the existence of either had it not been for the referrals to my blog posts from here.

#2- Marissa,

You might actually try reading what I wrote on my blog before making off-base comments or, if you actually did read what I wrote, work at your reading comprehension skills a bit.

"Thanks for the lovely dose of child molester defending, Chandler. It's certainly a wonderful thing to see you praising Kramer's manipulation of the legal system on your own blog."

Praising his manipulation of the system? From the first thing I wrote on the situation I stated that I thought he was guilty, that he should have faced justice and been sentenced long ago, and that I found it infuriating that the legal system handling him was acting it what appeared to be such an inept manner.

These were sentiments that I reiterated here when this finally ended.

http://jjchandler.wordpress.com/2013/12/05/in-which-a-long-and-tangled-story-reaches-a-less-than-satisfactory-ending/

I have always said that Kramer was guilty. I have always said he should face justice. I have always said that his ability to twist the legal system into knots was infuriating to look at.

If you wish to be critical of a position I took, kindly be critical of one I actually took and not one that you've made up in order to have an easy to defeat straw dog argument to fight.

I actually have no interest in further debate or discussion on this. As I said in the link I just posted, I have no interest in continuing to discuss ed Kramer.However, I do not like people discussing it while pretending to be me. At the very least I would appreciate the post above to have the name "Chandler" removed from it.

Thank you.


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