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Tuesday, July 15, 2014

Marion Zimmer Bradley's son speaks out

After his sister, Moira Greyland, bravely came forward and publicly exposed her mother, the late Marion Zimmer Bradley, as a child abuser, her son has also stepped forward to confirm both her charges and the deposition of Elizabeth Waters. This is a brief selection; read the whole thing there.
CS: Do you think other people were aware of your mother's abuse of you and your sister at the time? If so, in what ways did they respond?
MG: You assume that I would have felt free to say anything. There was always drama and there was always the invisible blade of what would happen if all of this dreadful secret got out. The atmosphere of fear of discovery was simply everywhere and there was no place to hide.

Worse, I was ashamed. When you are small you believe stuff, and I felt with my whole heart that I was responsible when she would go bad. There was absolutely no way I was gonna drag the mountain onto my head. And that made every day a drama, a thick clogged tube of waiting for the dreadful, the un-nameable horror.

And nobody spoke. Everything was always fine and that was my clown suit. I thought everyone knew and that I was such a bad person no one would speak to me. My echo chamber filled me with such fear of exposure I would do anything to make the shadow go away. And I did. The shame paints my world yellow and pink and brown. I don't want to say these things any more....

CS: Who benefits from the sales of your mother's books and the MZB trust?
MG: I was disinherited by language that sounded so unlike my mother that I knew she never wrote it, as was my sister and my half-brother who is now deceased.

The money went to the opera and to her lover.
"Nobody spoke." That is the shame of the science fiction community then and now. Now that they can't deny the fact of MZB's abuse, they can still pretend that Ed Kramer isn't a member of SFWA, they can still pretend that there aren't a veritable United Nations of red flags waving around Sam Delany's head, they can still try to brazen it out. But the truth is going to come out eventually, and their legacies will reflect the fact that they did their very best to sweep the ugly truth under the carpet as long as they thought they could get away with it.

SFWA still has not responded to my questions about its position on the eligibility of known and suspected child molesters for membership in the organization. Nor, to the best of my knowledge, has the organization that produced an 80-page investigative report on the subject of a single tweet done anything to discover who in the science fiction community knew what and when they knew it.

As for Mark and Moira, as difficult as it may be, they have the right to hold their heads up high. Unlike all the cowards, they were not afraid to speak. They were not afraid to expose the evildoers. One need not be a writer of fantasies to know, and to acknowledge, that such actions are indicative of the behavior of a hero, not a villain, and not a helpless victim.

If I could tell Mark one thing, it would be this: You did the right thing. You broke the spell of silence. You have made it harder for others to do what was done to you. You don't have my pity or even my sympathy. You have my respect.

Labels:

60 Comments:

Blogger El Borak July 15, 2014 9:07 AM  

Feminism to me was a lot of very unhappy women telling stories to each other about how they had been hurt.

It would be hard to find a better working description than that. Except that the stories are what is most important. The hurt is embraced and even manufactured because it makes good stories.

Anonymous Amir Larijani July 15, 2014 9:20 AM  

What Vox said.

Anonymous stonercat July 15, 2014 9:21 AM  

Both he and his sister have dealt with this with far more aplomb and grace then I believe I ever could have. Likewise, they both have my respect, good wishes, and prayers.

Anonymous p-dawg July 15, 2014 9:24 AM  

Look what she did to the poor guy's diction...

Anonymous Antonio Gramsci Alinsiky July 15, 2014 9:28 AM  

If you want to make an omelette ... something something child abuse is OK.

Anonymous willneverpostagain July 15, 2014 9:31 AM  

Those two people have more class, morality and courage than the entire SFWA put together.

OpenID newrebeluniv July 15, 2014 9:31 AM  

WRT SFWA: At least they got rid of that Misogynistic, neo-nazi right winger racist guy.

/sarc

OpenID newrebeluniv July 15, 2014 9:32 AM  

... Oh. And they are not going to have sex with you. Even if you ask.

Blogger IM2L844 July 15, 2014 9:34 AM  

They're convinced sexual proclivities/obsessions/perversions are not evil choices how ever anomalous or unfortunate those irresistible animalistic urges might be. See, the slippery slope of sexual intolerance must be tread much more lightly than any other slippery slopes of intolerance.

Anonymous TruthBear July 15, 2014 9:38 AM  

Marion Zimmer Bradley was dyke child rapist, but at least she wasn't fat. I estimate that 98% of her readers are fatties. Not just chubby, but real Jabba-the-Huts.

Anonymous Toby Temple July 15, 2014 9:40 AM  

If SFWA is as morally bankrupt as I expect them to be, then they will denounce Moira and Mark Greyland and disqualify then by calling them liars and bad, ungrateful children to the late Marion Zimmer Bradley.

Anonymous Susan July 15, 2014 10:15 AM  

As one who has been helping a long time friend deal with this stuff recently, the words you wrote are exactly right. The hardest part of their journey to at least partial recovery will be both of them accepting the fact that they did nothing to deserve this. Abso-freaking-lutely nothing.

I wish them both peace of mind and spirit. And may their "parents" rot in Hades for their crimes against God's little ones.

Blogger Nate July 15, 2014 10:16 AM  

"Marion Zimmer Bradley was dyke child rapist, but at least she wasn't fat. "

...

what?

Anonymous bob k. mando July 15, 2014 10:23 AM  

interesting that he says that MZB ( or her girlfriend ) disowned the children.

so, there is no longer any question: the profits on sales of MZB's work go to support deviants. her victims/children have had the final indignity of even having their inheritance stolen from them as well as their childhood.

it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't really want to benefit from MZB book sales anyways ... but i'm sure they would have preferred to divert those funds to charities of their own choosing rather than to be violated yet again.

Anonymous Athor Pel July 15, 2014 10:23 AM  

Sounds like MZB was a multiple, as in multiple personality disorder.

"...
There was no believing she was getting better as you could not tell which one of her would wake up at any moment.
..."


I also see indicators of demonic possession.

"...but the earth could turn any day to seeing the big cat stalking in her skin."

Blogger Nate July 15, 2014 10:26 AM  

Also... man... this is one seriously damaged dude. Dear God.

Anonymous bob k. mando July 15, 2014 10:28 AM  

also note that, in end, lesbian child molester MZB 'returned' to the Episcopal church:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marion_Zimmer_Bradley#Religion
"In the 1990s Bradley said she'd returned to Christianity, telling an interviewer: "I just go regularly to the Episcopalian church... That pagan thing... I feel that I've gotten past it. I would like people to explore the possibilities.""


this is a 'christian'? yeah, i've gotten past that whole pagan thing but YOU should go ahead and explore the possibilities?

nor is it any wonder that the Episcopal 'church' was so well suited to such an obviously evil little fuck as Marion Zimmer Bradley.

Anonymous Huckleberry -- est. 1977 July 15, 2014 10:36 AM  

Respect, certainly, but I feel some pity.
This guy is never going to be right.
And unfortunately he seems cursed with his mother's burdensome, swollen prose.

Anonymous Amir Larijani July 15, 2014 10:37 AM  

People like MZB help put the "piss" in Episcopal.

OpenID gnardopolo July 15, 2014 10:37 AM  

"If SFWA is as morally bankrupt as I expect them to be, then they will denounce Moira and Mark Greyland and disqualify then by calling them liars and bad, ungrateful children to the late Marion Zimmer Bradley."

The SFWA has already proven themselves morally bankrupt by the company they chose to keep, and defend--and those they choose to reject. If they denigrate MZB's children in any way, they have crossed the line into active evil, harming those that have already been harmed in an attempt to silence them again.

Anonymous bob k. mando July 15, 2014 10:43 AM  

Nate July 15, 2014 10:26 AM
Also... man... this is one seriously damaged dude. Dear God.



his childhood was spent being sexually abused by his biological father and physically / mentally abused by his biological mother.

i don't think it's reasonable to be 'surprised' that he's got some issues.

take a cue from Vox, lift him up. don't dwell on the things which he knows more about than any other and which cause him even further pain to have others 'sympathizing' with him.

he knows what 'patronizing' behavior is and he wants none of it.

Blogger Chiva July 15, 2014 10:43 AM  

"If I could tell Mark one thing, it would be this: You did the right thing. You broke the spell of silence. You have made it harder for others to do what was done to you. You don't have my pity or even my sympathy. You have my respect."

He has my respect. Lord I pray that you walk with him as he heals and learns who he truly is.

Blogger Nate July 15, 2014 10:55 AM  

"take a cue from Vox, lift him up. don't dwell on the things which he knows more about than any other and which cause him even further pain to have others 'sympathizing' with him."

Don't confuse gawking with sympathizing or patronizing.

Anonymous Porphyry July 15, 2014 10:58 AM  

yeah anybody who did this to a human being, much more their own child deserves to die.

Blogger Joshua Dyal July 15, 2014 11:34 AM  

Whereas, in the make of these revelations, Samual Delaney digs himself in even deeper, in most respects.

http://shetterly.blogspot.com/2014/07/a-conversation-with-samuel-r-delany.html

Anonymous RedJack July 15, 2014 11:35 AM  

Susan July 15, 2014 10:15 AM
As one who has been helping a long time friend deal with this stuff recently, the words you wrote are exactly right. The hardest part of their journey to at least partial recovery will be both of them accepting the fact that they did nothing to deserve this. Abso-freaking-lutely nothing.

Something I have had to learn, and relearn, myself. Not that my life was like his, my mom is just a narcissist.

Anonymous bob k. mando July 15, 2014 11:37 AM  

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+1%3A32&version=KJV


26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind

...

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


the SFWA being amongst the groups that "have pleasure in them that do them".

Blogger Tommy Hass July 15, 2014 11:48 AM  

"Oh. And they are not going to have sex with you. Even if you ask."

Could anyone tell me where exactly that originated?

I know it was because some cumdumpsters on the internet told Vox this, but could anyone be more specific?

Anonymous Daniel July 15, 2014 11:53 AM  

Will Shetterly's public naivete (whether feigned or real) finally puts itself to good use.

Delany clarifies his mysterious support for NAMBLA in the mid-90s...as unequivocal support.

Anonymous TimLamb July 15, 2014 11:54 AM  

Anyone here familiar with Andrea Dworkin? She was a pioneering feminist too.
According to her wiki page she seemed to make some comments that also endorsed incest. Weird. Feminists and their view on incest or their behavior towards it........ so unexpected.

Anonymous Daniel July 15, 2014 11:55 AM  

I remember 20/20 or some show like that doing an expose on NAMBLA in the 1980s during the child kidnapping spree...so Chip is not fooling anyone that NAMBLA 1995 was anything other than what it was.

Anonymous Can someone call the FBI please? July 15, 2014 11:56 AM  

To sum up: http://shetterly.blogspot.com/2014/07/a-conversation-with-samuel-r-delany.html

Basically, a child over the age 5 is considered "fair game" by these faggot creeps.

Anonymous bob k. mando July 15, 2014 12:02 PM  

Joshua Dyal July 15, 2014 11:34 AM
Whereas, in the make of these revelations, Samual Delaney digs himself in even deeper, in most respects.


"I had my first sexual experience with an adult when I was six, with a local Harlem building superintendent.
...
Since I spent eighteen years of my life as a child, and nine years of that life as a pretty sexually active gay child
...
a situation in which there were myriad child/adult pairings, at least in the gay world
...
Somewhere there was a man as intelligent as Robert Heinlein clearly was, who felt that certain children just didn’t belong with their parents and wrote it in a novel read by children in the ’fifties, too."


as i've noted before, Heinlein was writing this in the 30s.

Anonymous bob k. mando July 15, 2014 12:08 PM  

Tommy Hass July 15, 2014 11:48 AM
I know it was because some cumdumpsters on the internet told Vox this, but could anyone be more specific?



it's a common trope of female attempts to 'disqualify' men. ie - you're poor, short, ugly, weak, have a tiny dick and i'm never going to sleep with you.

as such, feminists who are 'debating' Vox ( or pretty much any other man ) will usually work this into their 'reasoned rebuttal', often as what they consider to be the coup de grace.

particularly humorous when coming from a landwhale.

it's not that 'some' have said it, it's that it's the almost universal rhetorical device.

Anonymous Ugh July 15, 2014 12:16 PM  

Anyone here familiar with Andrea Dworkin? She was a pioneering feminist too.

Not unexpectedly, she was run over by the ugly bus... which locked up its wheels and dragged her underneath for a hundred yards... then she fell off the ugly cliff, and landed in the ugly tree, hitting every branch on the way down...

Anonymous next WorldCon? July 15, 2014 12:20 PM  

Theme park employees caught in sex stings, child porn arrests
http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/14/us/theme-park-employees-child-sex-stings/

Blogger Guitar Man July 15, 2014 12:27 PM  

It amazes what one person can do to someone for the rest of their lives. I will be praying for this man tonight.

OpenID newrebeluniv July 15, 2014 12:31 PM  

Tommy, No one knows. It is a connection from deep in internet lore. It's origins are lost to the ages.

Blogger Jesse Bjorn July 15, 2014 12:32 PM  

TL;DR that guy talks like a fag and his shit's all retarded

Blogger Guitar Man July 15, 2014 12:40 PM  

Shut up, Jesse.

Anonymous A Visitor July 15, 2014 12:44 PM  

He has my sympathy and respect and prayers. As another commenter said, he'll never be normal. What a hell to live daily, thinking that others knew what was happening to you and to think it was normal (at the time).

"Feminists and their view on incest or their behavior towards it........ so unexpected." It isn't to me. I had to take a gender studies class in undergrad as a necessary part of my core curriculum. That class was an eyeopener. IIRC, radical cultural feminists advocate the overthrow of traditional sexual restraints and roles so that incest and bestiality and other abominations can be practiced freely. Some of the "truer" believers in class even thought that was too much.

Anonymous Heinlein's Ghost July 15, 2014 12:50 PM  

Delanyhas now made the choice clear- if you support SFWA you support NAMBLA. The Grand Dragon of SFWA is a radical pedophile advocate the worst possible kind, and now Scalzi and the rest of those little semi-men and Jabba shethings are themselves NAMBLA advocates by association. The Cultural Marxists wrote the rules, now they can hang themselves with them. Email the highlights of that interview to all the SFWA's local community leaders, local libraries, the schools they teach in, any local churches or police organizations, local GOP chapters. Add in Bradley and Kramer for starters. Start playing by their rules for once.

Anonymous VD July 15, 2014 12:57 PM  

I've put up a separate post for the Shetterly-Delany interview. If you wish to comment on it, please do so there.

Anonymous Stickwick July 15, 2014 1:04 PM  

Mark sounds like an impressive man, worthy of respect. Not only is he willing to speak out about what happened, speak the unpopular truth about feminism, but he expresses sympathy for those who might be affected by these revelations.

Anonymous Peter Pan July 15, 2014 1:59 PM  

Some of them were so angry they treated me like I was a crime for daring to be male around her. Others would give me the deer in the headlights look then look away.

There were times these unhappy women would gather around her by the dozens and I would stand back and watch her on stage and happy. I saw the rituals and the other weirdness close up and then at a distance. What they got out of it was something I did not understand, but I could see that the people were volatile and likely to blow up for invisible reasons.

Feminism to me was a lot of very unhappy women telling stories to each other about how they had been hurt.


I have no words to express how spot-on Mark is about feminism, other than to say he is spot-on. It's apparent he's troubled by the tragic past, but it's clear he knows the truth and is unafraid to tell it. He's got my respect as well.

Anonymous Porphyry July 15, 2014 2:50 PM  

The sad thing is that women will actually treat him worse now that they know, and the weak men of today will just stick their little brown noses up the womens assholes and gossip along with them.

OpenID bc64a9f8-765e-11e3-8683-000bcdcb2996 July 15, 2014 2:59 PM  

So he was surrounded by the "fictional" Ellen Jamesians, from Irving's book
"The World According To Garp"?

CaptDMO

Anonymous Don July 15, 2014 3:09 PM  

Peter Pan - IIRC MZB wrote about hanging out with women who believed in a 'pagan convent' where no men were allowed even their own sons after say five years old or so. She wrote she wasn't sure about how she felt about that.

Now we know why.

Anonymous roo_ster July 15, 2014 3:35 PM  

The harrowing of MB did not end when he was no longer in a position to be abused by MZB or even after she died It continues.

I am suddenly overcome with the desire to hug my children.

Blogger Pinakeli July 15, 2014 3:57 PM  

Ugh July 15, 2014 12:16 PM

Anyone here familiar with Andrea Dworkin? She was a pioneering feminist too.

Not unexpectedly, she was run over by the ugly bus... which locked up its wheels and dragged her underneath for a hundred yards... then she fell off the ugly cliff, and landed in the ugly tree, hitting every branch on the way down...


Where she then fell into the Ugly Lake and sank to the bottom. After bloating properly floated back to the surface where she was hit by the Ugly Boat and bounced to the Ugly Tracks where she was then hit by the Ugly Train...

Blogger Sherwood family July 15, 2014 4:09 PM  

Having merely read the description of "Hogg" by Samuel Delany was sufficient to let me know just how truly morally bankrupt SFWA is. Any organization that would continue to allow someone who had penned that tome to be a member at all is an organization riddled with rot like a syphilitic whore. Vox, their desire to purge you from the organization is indicative that they walk in darkness at noonday if you are the one offensive to them and the monsters you have cited above are not.

Blogger Bogey July 15, 2014 4:14 PM  

That pagan thing... I feel that I've gotten past it. I would like people to explore the possibilities.

Try things on like you're shopping for shoes.

Anonymous Augustina July 15, 2014 5:41 PM  

I keep hearing how MZB's writing "saved" the lives of some of her fans, as if she somehow did good. What I wonder about is all the people who killed themselves after years of child sexual abuse advocated by MZB and her odious husband. She did edit his book on pedophilia. Then there are all the boys he molested under her watch.

I'm sure more people suffered and died as a result of MZB's work than were helped. I think that even those who claimed they were saved by MZB were actually harmed, since her writing leads away from truth and wholesomeness.

Anonymous Porphyry July 15, 2014 5:44 PM  

"I think that even those who claimed they were saved by MZB were actually harmed, since her writing leads away from truth and wholesomeness." Far be it from me to agree with a woman on a political blog, but that probably deserves an amen.

Blogger Zimri July 15, 2014 9:00 PM  

The Episcopal church has access to the same website we do, so they knew as of the 1990s about the abuse allegations against MZB.

They did not demand that MZB make amends for what she did.

Anonymous C.A. Starfire July 15, 2014 9:03 PM  

Thank you for spreading the word about my interview with Mr. Greyland. He's a brave and amazing man and his story deserves to be told.

However (as I also emailed to you), please limit the amount you copy and paste to your own blog to 20% or less in respect of my copyright.

Cheers,

C. A. Starfire

Anonymous bob k. mando July 15, 2014 10:07 PM  

Zimri July 15, 2014 9:00 PM
The Episcopal church has access to the same website we do, so they knew as of the 1990s about the abuse allegations against MZB.



'having access to' is not the same thing as going and looking at it. and i hate to break this to you, but i doubt there's a whole lot of overlap between Episcopal clergy and SFF fandom.

even with that, however, your post is pointless. Vox already has a post up today detailing yet another way that the Episcopal / Anglican 'church' has already gone down the tubes.

http://voxday.blogspot.com/2014/07/the-end-of-coe.html

Anonymous bob k. mando July 15, 2014 10:10 PM  

C.A. Starfire July 15, 2014 9:03 PM
please limit the amount you copy and paste to your own blog to 20% or less in respect of my copyright.



probably best to re-email that or repost to the most recent blog post. Vox is in Italy and likely already asleep. his reviewing of threads more than a day or two old tends to be kind of sketchy.

Blogger Akulkis July 20, 2014 5:30 AM  

Sounds like MZB was a multiple, as in multiple personality disorder.

No, this has the stench of Borderline Personality Disorder all over it. Sexual identity issues, child abuse and "secret lives" while having a public squaky-clean image are part and parcel of BPD. I wouldn't be surprised if MZB was also a heavy drinker or some other kind of substance abuser, as that is part of the constellation of aberrent behavior.

Anonymous Jack Dromey July 25, 2014 10:27 AM  

Feminists and their view on incest or their behavior towards it........ so unexpected.

the Vagina Monologues contains a story where a 30 year old woman seduces a 13 year old girl and the reaction was silence just as it was when it was revealed that Harriet Harman UK equality minister was such an advocate in equality that she worked with the pedophile information exchange to legalize pedophilia but she was too stupid to know what pedophilia was so that cannot be held against her now that she realizes that she dislike Jimmy Savile.

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