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Thursday, July 17, 2014

Passenger plane shot down in Ukraine

A Malaysian Airlines passenger plane has been shot down on the Russian-Ukraine border, killing all 295 people on board, according to a Ukrainian interior ministry official.

Flight MH17, which was carrying 280 passengers and 15 crew, was flying between Amsterdam and Kuala Lumpur after taking off at lunchtime today.

The Interfax news agency reported that the aircraft went missing near Donetsk, where pro-Russian rebels have been fighting Ukrainian government forces.

UPDATE: And now Israel has begun an invasion of Gaza.
IDF ground forces began to move into the Gaza Strip on Thursday evening, the prime minister's office confirmed.

“In light of Hamas' continuous criminal aggression, and the dangerous infiltration into Israeli territory, Israel is obligated to act in defense of its citizens,” a statement from Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu's office said.
Ironically, the Gaza invasion is considerably smaller than the US one. Perhaps Netanyahu should have simply sent in 60,000 Jewish children, then no one would have seen anything to complain about.

Labels:

212 Comments:

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Anonymous MontyDraxel July 17, 2014 12:52 PM  

Not the first time Russians have shot one down... although the conspiracy side of me thinks this is all too predictable of a global catalyst. At least the families of this Malaysian flight have some closure.

Anonymous Johnny Wong July 17, 2014 12:53 PM  

spotted on Twitter today...

Brendan Loy @brendanloy · 1h
I hope there weren't any Archdukes on that Malaysian Airlines jet. #PANIC

Anonymous Wyrd July 17, 2014 12:59 PM  

And only 11 days away from the 100th anniversary of the start of WW1.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis July 17, 2014 12:59 PM  

Facebook is awash with people citing Article 5 of the NATO treaty. Interesting to see how this will play out, though I personally doubt the US will do much of anything.

Blogger Jourdan July 17, 2014 1:01 PM  

Former U.S. Ambassador to Russia says:

Michael McFaul ✔ @McFaul
Russian GRU officer Strelkov admitting that he ordered the missile strike against the Malaysian jet.

Britain's MoD confirms their systems showing a ground-to-air launch of "Buk" anti-aircraft system, a Russian weapon.

Anonymous Mike M. July 17, 2014 1:01 PM  

That's what worries me, too. I would not put the thought that the Russians are setting this up as a false flag out of my mind, either.

This could get very, very ugly. Great Powers are supposed to be thinking on a global scale...and none of them are, these days.

Blogger Jourdan July 17, 2014 1:02 PM  

Ukraine is NOT a member of NATO.

Blogger Chiva July 17, 2014 1:03 PM  

If you look at the live flight tracking of MH-17 today's flight path is much more north when compared to the flight paths of the last two weeks.

Coincidence?

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17

Anonymous Stilicho July 17, 2014 1:04 PM  

a Russian weapon

And the armed forces of Kiev use weapons from which country again?

Anonymous Alexander July 17, 2014 1:04 PM  

No, but if you really, really want to start a world war, I'm sure that one would be willing to call it an attack on Holland.

Anonymous Stilicho July 17, 2014 1:05 PM  

Why is a commercial airline flying through a war zone?

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis July 17, 2014 1:07 PM  

But there were passengers who were citizens of states that were

Anonymous CunningDove July 17, 2014 1:11 PM  

Never believe anything until the government officially denies it.

'We do not exclude that this plane was shot down, and we stress that the Armed Forces of Ukraine did not take action against any airborne targets,' he said.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis July 17, 2014 1:13 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Peter Garstig July 17, 2014 1:13 PM  

Malaysian Airlines again?

Blogger LibertyPortraits July 17, 2014 1:14 PM  

Ugh that would be a horrific last experience.

Blogger Tiny Tim July 17, 2014 1:15 PM  

Remotely jacked airliner? Remotely jacked missile battery?

Rockets are taking planes out in this region every few hours and a passenger plane travels in that airspace?

McCain will be declaring war by this afternoon.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis July 17, 2014 1:17 PM  

@ Stilicho

I brought this up earlier at work but people refused to acknowledge this was anything more than a 'hotspot'. So if my coworkers, who are decidedly anti-rebels in this conflict, aren't willing to define it as it actually is, then I guess it isn't out of the question that Malaysia Airlines just assumed that no one would touch a civilian aircraft cruising at 30,000 ft.

@Chivas

I don't that means much of anything by itself. There are rules governing flying routes that are established to help prevent accidents. Before jumping to any conclusions we would have to examine any other flight routes in the area and see if the other routes were already occupied.

Anonymous MontyDraxel July 17, 2014 1:19 PM  

Russian feed of Life News channel is showing graphic video taken at the debris field.

http://lifenews.ru/watch-live

Again, this is graphic so if twisted dead people would disturb you, don't watch.

Anonymous cheddarman July 17, 2014 1:19 PM  

I don't see how Russia would benefit from shooting down a commercial jet liner from Malaysia.

This would be a convenient excuse for the usual suspects to demand some kind of regime change in Russia.

The Ukrainians, on the other hand, prove they are reliable puppets to their paymasters in the west.

Anonymous cheddarman July 17, 2014 1:20 PM  

Nate needs to get on the phone to his fellow Uber-Alpha Vladimir Putin and find out what happened.

Anonymous Huckleberry -- est. 1977 July 17, 2014 1:23 PM  

Well this aught to kick things up a notch.

Blogger Random July 17, 2014 1:23 PM  

Cue the usual neocon suspects braying for Russian blood, which makes me think (since up is down, black is white, night is day with these liars) of course the Ukranians (or their CIA 'helpers') did it.

Anonymous Johnny Wong July 17, 2014 1:24 PM  

plus Russia/Putin is anti-gay. The perfect "enemy" for SWPL.

Anonymous mistaben July 17, 2014 1:24 PM  

My very first thought when I saw the headline: So THAT's what they wanted to do with an entire Malaysian Airlines 777. It sure is a convenient spot to have one shot down, as has been mentioned.

Blogger Nate July 17, 2014 1:27 PM  

"This could get very, very ugly. Great Powers are supposed to be thinking on a global scale...and none of them are, these days."

Some of the are...

Anonymous PA July 17, 2014 1:29 PM  

"I hope there weren't any Archdukes on that Malaysian Airlines jet."

Comment of the day.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis July 17, 2014 1:30 PM  

@ Cheddarman

I don't see any nations involved, covertly or otherwise, benefiting from something like this.

Ukraine was already drifting towards NATO prior to the conflict so I think it is highly unlikely this is some sort of US false flag.

Ukraine has pushed the rebels back and have the upper hand for the most part. They are almost certainly already receiving western aid so I don't think it likely they organized a 'rebel attack' to try to get NATO on board.

Given the military situation right now in Donetsk, I think it is far more likely that this was done by the Donetsk rebels, or a splinter group, acting without any direction from Russia. The war isn't going their way, they are pushed back and their hope of Russian aid hasn't materialized to open support with boots on the ground. They are losing, and losers generally get desperate.

Anonymous Johnny Wong July 17, 2014 1:31 PM  

Live TV: Twisted bodies ...the passports of dead (cute) white dutch girls:
http://lifenews.ru/watch-live

Anonymous mistaben July 17, 2014 1:33 PM  

Amazing how someone has already managed to gather a huge pile of perfect, undamaged passports from the burning wreckage. Are they all gathered in one spot on such flights?

Anonymous JCB July 17, 2014 1:33 PM  

Prayers for the repose of the departed. I hope they all went quick. Plummeting 6 miles to your death is not, I imagine, a fun way to pass.

Blogger James Dixon July 17, 2014 1:42 PM  

> Cue the usual neocon suspects braying for Russian blood...

Regardless of what happened, the neocons and the administration will put it to the uses they want.

Anonymous Jack Amok July 17, 2014 1:44 PM  

I may have to rethink my upcoming business trip to Kiev.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis July 17, 2014 1:44 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis July 17, 2014 1:44 PM  

Business insider reports that 23 Americans were on the flight...its going to get more interesting

*WARNING GRAPHIC PHOTOS OF BODIES*

http://www.businessinsider.com/graphic-photos-wreckage-malaysia-airlines-crash-ukraine-2014-7

Anonymous Shibes Meadow July 17, 2014 1:49 PM  

I'd guess that the explosion plus the shock of sudden exposure to wind at 550 mph would result in almost-instantaneous unconsciousness in any passenger who survived the initial impact. Death from hypoxia would follow seconds later. It would be a matter of enjoying your coffee and some music on the headphones then suddenly BAM you're dead.

May God have mercy on the souls of these poor people.

Anonymous Peter Pan July 17, 2014 1:52 PM  

Heard about this briefly on the radio. It 'seems' like an accident. What was this flight even doing flying in contested, closed airspace over a combat-zone? Let me be clear, I don't find it odd, I find it stupid. As Cogitans levenis said, the pro-Russian rebels "are losing, and losers generally get desperate." I don't see any immediate or long-term benefit for any of the countries involved, which makes me think that whoever was in charge of this flight's route was an imbecile.

Anonymous Icy Illusion July 17, 2014 1:54 PM  

As soon as he received word of the situation POTUS took immediate action to secure the most proximate golf course. Word is that he is dug in at the bunker on hole 3.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis July 17, 2014 1:58 PM  

Some third hand reports that pro-Ukrainian citizens in the contested region reported seeing a BUK anti-aircraft system being moved by the government. One of the rebel leaders maintains that they do not have possess any system like the BUK and reminded the reporters of the 2001 Black Sea incident.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/18/world/europe/malaysian-airlines-jet-ukraine.html?_r=0

Anonymous Huckleberry -- est. 1977 July 17, 2014 1:58 PM  

An average cynical mind would think this is a false flag to wrangle in NATO involvement to the conflict.
A deeply cynical mind is left to wonder if the powers that be, desperate to change the subject from a US border incursion, would engineer this to give the cable nets something new to talk about, knowing that only FIRE and plane crashes have the power to compel wall-to-wall coverage across the board.
Crazy talk?
Such is the stuff of interesting times.

Anonymous Don July 17, 2014 1:59 PM  

The rebels have these systems? How does the Kiev govt. fly anything over East Ukraine? It's got to be one of the governments.

Anonymous Hmmm July 17, 2014 2:01 PM  

It is curious that the great circle route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur basically runs along the northern border of Ukraine, hundreds of miles from Donetsk. They'd only need to tweak that route a little bit to stay entirely inside Russia.

Blogger Jourdan July 17, 2014 2:01 PM  

That doesn't even make basic sense? How could it be the Malaysian flight that was lost? This plane was in Amsterdam a few hours ago loading passengers.

Anonymous 11B July 17, 2014 2:02 PM  

the pro-Russian rebels "are losing, and losers generally get desperate."

Do the rebels have access to such high altitude SAMs? I'd figure they have access to manpads to down low flying attacking jets. But hitting a plane 6 miles up? Most of time you can't even see, let alone hear a plane that high. You need to track it with radar. That is something that I would think a real military would do, not rebels.

Anonymous Huckleberry -- est. 1977 July 17, 2014 2:02 PM  

Plummeting 6 miles to your death is not, I imagine, a fun way to pass

I'll wager that the list of fun ways to die is well dwarfed by the list of not fun ways to die.
The only list smaller, to be sure, is a list of boring ways to die.

Anonymous 20th Century Calling July 17, 2014 2:11 PM  

Remember the Lusitania!!

Anonymous Jack Amok July 17, 2014 2:12 PM  

I don't see any immediate or long-term benefit for any of the countries involved, which makes me think that whoever was in charge of this flight's route was an imbecile.

The Black Hand had the support of a cabal within the Serbian government. There was no conventionally sensible benefit to killing Archduke Ferdinand, but the guy masterminding the group (Dragutin Dimitrijević, aka Apis) was a violent trouble-maker who had risen in life through violent acts. He didn't want tensions in the Balkans to ease, he wanted to stir them further. Things didn't turn out well for him.

And, coincidentally enough, the Black Hand were only able to kill Ferdinand because the Archduke's driver took a wrong turn.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis July 17, 2014 2:13 PM  

@11B

True, I agree normally but it is also a certainty that there are groups within the rebels that are former Russian military and that the rebels had seized military hardware from eastern Ukrainian bases. At the same time an incident like this did happen with the Ukrainian Military in 2001.

Anonymous Ridip July 17, 2014 2:13 PM  

Since when does VP need trigger warnings on comments? Did somebody let Scalzi or his Hinesy back in here?

Blogger jaakkeli July 17, 2014 2:20 PM  

"Do the rebels have access to such high altitude SAMs?"

Well, they've been boasting that they do. In any case, here's what the stuff looks like:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BrTKs_mIYAAFcbN.jpg

There's no way you can buy this gear on the black market or smuggle it from Russia without the co-operation of authorities so if it does turn out to be the rebels then Russia definitely has some explaining to do.

Meanwhile the Finnish economy is crashing hard because we have to participate in EU-wide sanctions against our biggest trade partner but France still gets to sell those warships to Russia...

Anonymous mistaben July 17, 2014 2:23 PM  

Jourdan: So we're told.

That said, the above was, as I mentioned, my very first thought and not the result of hours of deep contemplation.

Blogger Bies Podkrakowski July 17, 2014 2:25 PM  

Short info gleamed from European news and comments under the articles, so it is nothing certain but still it gives interesting picture.
Rebels have Buk missile systems, according to ITAR-TASS they captured a few in Ukrainian air base at the end of June. Not to mention that they could get some from Russia, the border there is more porous than American border.
The most damning is that around 4 PM (UTC+1 time zone) Igor Strielkov/Grikin who commands Donbass People's Militia was supposed to inform through VKontakt that his people had shot down Ukrainian AN-26 plane in the area of Torez. He supposedly wrote something to the effect: we warned them (Ukrainians) to keep away from our sky. Ukrainians say they haven’t lost any AN-26 today…

Anonymous Alexander July 17, 2014 2:26 PM  

US Ambassadors were also saying that Libya happened because Youtube, so... something to keep in mind.

Anonymous Noah B. July 17, 2014 2:27 PM  

A rebel mishap makes the most sense. It would be absolutely stupid of Russia to do this intentionally.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis July 17, 2014 2:30 PM  

Since when does VP need trigger warnings on comments? Did somebody let Scalzi or his Hinesy back in here?

It doesn't, I opted to put the warning because there are graphic images and some people might want to avoid inadvertently seeing dead bodies out of squeamishness or out of respect for the dead. You will never find me using triggers like cis-privilige, patriarchy, rape culture or some shit like that.

Anonymous 11B July 17, 2014 2:35 PM  

@ Cogitans Iuvenis - good point about the rebels capturing weaponry from Ukrainian armories. Maybe they got one.

@ jaakkeli - Thanks for the photo

Whoever did it, I am anxious to see what their excuse was. I remember the US Navy downing an Airbus in 1987, claiming they thought it was an Iranian F-14 about to attack them.

Anonymous Dick Cheney July 17, 2014 2:38 PM  

The crash site looks ZackTLY like the Shanksville crash site after 911.

Anonymous Peter Pan July 17, 2014 2:39 PM  

As I think more about this and more information is revealed (such as the 23 US passengers on board), my initial position may be wrong. I still lean toward accident, but If the Ukrainian military is found to be responsible or somehow blamed for the incident, it will strain US-Ukrainian relations and Ukraine would lose a little sympathy from the rest of the world... which would be beneficial for both Russia and the separatists. It wouldn't be hard to pay off someone to change the flight route, or to discreetly kill that person afterward. The problem is Ukraine doesn't benefit from shooting the aircraft down. They're winning against the rebels and would therefore have no incentive to fire on the civilian flight--it would be too risky considering the potential costs. Either whoever routed the flight was an idiot and the separatists are desperate, or someone committed a massive blunder within the Ukrainian military, or it was carefully engineered by Russia to make it look like Ukraine is responsible.

Of course, there's also the possibility that I have no idea about what I'm speaking.

Blogger Retrenched July 17, 2014 2:39 PM  

If this does come down to war, I would not bet on a US military that is far more concerned with making women and sexual deviants feel good about themselves than with fighting actual wars.

Are there enough heterosexual men left to fight a war and win? Or.. will there be without another draft?

Anonymous SFWA Reader July 17, 2014 2:41 PM  

send Tom Kratman and a division of Central Americans to Ukraine now!!!

Anonymous Don July 17, 2014 2:43 PM  

Ukraine will investigate and discover it is the rebels. Then they'll ask for international help to secure their border to prevent anything like this happening again.

Anonymous A Visitor July 17, 2014 2:44 PM  

Plummeting 6 miles to your death is not, I imagine, a fun way to pass.

This reminds me of Kings Island this weekend. I thought about the horror of accidentally slipping out of the restraints at certain points on Banshee and Diamondback. That would be horrible.

@Cogitans Iuvenis

Thanks for the link. That is the first I've heard of Americans on the flight; Limbaugh, et. al. have made no mention of it.

As others have said, May God have mercy on the souls of the departed.

This wouldn't be the first time a civilian airliner was shot down accidentally: KAL 007, the IranAir flight in the '80s shot down by one of our ships.

It doesn't say (I inherently distrust Wikipedia) on the Wikipedia article if the Buk system has automatic fire capability like the Patriot. Does anyone have access to MilitaryPeriscope or another military database and could confirm if it does have auto fire capability?

"A deeply cynical mind is left to wonder if the powers that be, desperate to change the subject from a US border incursion, would engineer this to give the cable nets something new to talk about, knowing that only FIRE and plane crashes have the power to compel wall-to-wall coverage across the board."

I'd like to think that the border is too engrained now in Americans' minds to be dropped from FOX and Drudge but I've been wrong before.

We'll see where this goes.

Blogger jaakkeli July 17, 2014 2:44 PM  

There's also another possibility: it could be that the plane had some emergency and the pilot decided to take it lower. For example, if they had cabin pressure failure or even hints of that the way to deal with it would be to descend. At a lower altitude the plane would have been in reach of smaller and less sophisticated missiles.

Another point is that if the plane was shot down by the kind of a missile system capable of downing a jet from 30000 feet it needs an operator with specialized knowledge and a trained specialist should be able to tell that it's a civilian jet.

Anonymous 11B July 17, 2014 2:46 PM  

If this does come down to war, I would not bet on a US military that is far more concerned with making women and sexual deviants feel good about themselves than with fighting actual wars.

Are there enough heterosexual men left to fight a war and win? Or.. will there be without another draft?


The sad thing is, this incident probably has more of a chance of getting our elites to deploy the military than the ongoing invasion along our southern border. Wow, I wonder if there has ever been a parallel in history when a nation under invasion is more interested in action halfway around the world than in defending its own borders.

Anonymous Nah July 17, 2014 2:48 PM  

KAL 007 wasn't shot down accidentally.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis July 17, 2014 2:50 PM  

The only way I see this as a Ukrainian job, versus a fuck up, is trying to get the US to supply military hardware and arms to the Ukranian government (I absolutely do not think the US will engage in a shooting war in Ukraine since Russia isn't weak like it was back during the Balkans incidents). I do not think the Ukranian military would intentionally do this because it's near certainty that the US, or perhaps certain EU nations, supply them with military hardware in the future anyways given a resurgent Russia.

On the other hand I don't see why the Russians would orchestrate this since I cannot think of any upside. The Russians are if anything geopolitically shrewd so I don't think they would gamble trying to set the Ukrainians up given the high likelihood of failure.

I also don't think the rebels would intentionally shoot down a civilian airliner because the only thing they would accomplish is possibility of losing what little support they are already getting from the Kremlin.

Anonymous A Visitor July 17, 2014 2:50 PM  

@Nah

Thanks for the correction!

Ah, hell! RT, per Limbaugh, claims Putin's aircraft may have been the target.

Hello, invasion.

Blogger sapopular July 17, 2014 2:51 PM  

possibilities:

1) The residents of Donetsk are retarded and hit an innocent plane.

2) The residents of Donetsk (or their Russian sponsors) knew something and shot down a plane that carried clandestinely something or someone.

3) false flag operation by the Kiev government to justify the increase of force to reconquer the region and obliterate the rebels.

Blogger Frank Brady July 17, 2014 2:54 PM  

It is much more likely that the Ukrainian fascists who our neo-cons installed after instigating the overthrow of Ukraine's elected government (google Victoria Nuland) ) launched this as a false flag to blame Russia. For anyone who hasn't been paying attention and to everyone who takes all of their information from the Fox "News" Channel (but I repeat myself), you might find it helpful as you analyze this current incident to read http://gatetoliberty.blogspot.com/2014/03/something-wicked-this-way-comes.html.

No charge.

Anonymous Don July 17, 2014 2:56 PM  

RT is saying that Putin's plane might have been the target. I can't imagine that Ukraine would be that crazy. Or maybe they figure once the head's gone the snake is done? This just gets weirder.

Anonymous Peter July 17, 2014 2:57 PM  

One of the CNN anchors put up a map showing that this flight today flew through Ukraine on a more northerly route than the same flight in previous days and speculated that this was due to weather in over S Ukraine/Black Sea

Anonymous Noah B. July 17, 2014 3:01 PM  

Good article, Frank.

Anonymous bob k. mando July 17, 2014 3:05 PM  

Jourdan July 17, 2014 2:01 PM
That doesn't even make basic sense? How could it be the Malaysian flight that was lost? This plane was in Amsterdam a few hours ago loading passengers.



total scheduled flight time is barely over 12 hrs, departure was noon local time and -2 GMT. Donetsk is only ~1480 miles from Amsterdam. cruising speed is ~560mph at 35,000 feet ( approx 7 miles up ).


so, you would expect travel time to Donetsk to be ~2.65 hours or less.

http://aviability.com/flight-number/flight-mh17-malaysia-airlines
MH17 departs from airport Amsterdam, Schiphol (AMS), Netherlands on Thursday, 17 July at 12:00 / 12:00 pm. The flight arrives to «Terminal M» of airport Kuala Lumpur (KUL), Malaysia on Friday, 18 July at 06:10 / 6:10 am. Flight duration is 12h 10m.

Anonymous YIH July 17, 2014 3:16 PM  

UPDATES:
From RT: President Putin's plane might have been the target for Ukrainian missile.
Via ZeroHedge: Ukraine Rebels Find Black Box, Multiple Airlines Halt Routes Over Ukraine: Full MH 17 Update.

Anonymous 11B July 17, 2014 3:31 PM  

One of the CNN anchors put up a map showing that this flight today flew through Ukraine on a more northerly route than the same flight in previous days and speculated that this was due to weather in over S Ukraine/Black Sea

I am no aviation or meteorology expert, but isn't the point of flying over 6 miles high to avoid weather?

Anonymous Mike M. July 17, 2014 3:33 PM  

There are some weather systems that will reach into the 40kft range.

Blogger Laguna Beach Fogey July 17, 2014 3:36 PM  

They are losing, and losers generally get desperate.

Wrong. The pro-Russian freedom fighters have been winning in recent weeks, which makes it unlikely they perpetrated this act (unless it was in error). Gut instinct tells us that it was a 'false flag' incident committed by US-backed Ukrainian junta.

Blogger Hermit July 17, 2014 3:46 PM  

I'm not sure if the pro-russian separatist have the adequate anti-air.
I've heard two ukrainian friends of mine (one is pro-russia and the other an extreme ukrainian nationalist) and they told me two completely different stories.

False-flag, ukrainian mistake, russian mistake? I don't know at all, bad news anyway.


P.S. Also, s there some sort of curse against Malaysia airlanes?

Anonymous Johnny Wong July 17, 2014 3:47 PM  

Are there enough heterosexual men left to fight a war and win? Or.. will there be without another draft?

1) Draft all these Central America illegal immigrants into an army
2) Use them as cannon fodder in the Ukrainian steppes

2-for-1 special!

Anonymous Um July 17, 2014 3:54 PM  

I am no aviation or meteorology expert, but isn't the point of flying over 6 miles high to avoid weather?

The reason you don't feel a lot of bumps at cruising altitude is... they fly around the bad weather (not over it).

Anonymous Anonymous July 17, 2014 3:57 PM  

If you want to take a flight with plenty of room (four or five seats per person) fly Malaysian Airlines these days.

AKAHorace

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis July 17, 2014 3:59 PM  

@ Laguna

The rebels withdrew from Mauripol June 13. Two weeks ago they withdrew from Sloviansk and Kramatorsk about 100 km from Donetsk. The rebels, with a force of 4000+, failed to repel the Ukranian military during the battle of Yampil, which is now in Ukranian hands. The rebels did manage to retake Marynivka, however, the general trend for the rebels has been one of retreat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_insurgency_in_Donetsk_and_Luhansk#Airport_battle_and_fighting_in_Luhansk

Anonymous James Kallstrom July 17, 2014 4:02 PM  

When are they going to get those center fuel tanks fixed?

Anonymous Darth Toolpodicus July 17, 2014 4:09 PM  

@shibes

I wish that were the case. Explosive decompression by itself at 33000 feet ASL can leave people conscious for up to 25 or 30 seconds, and by that time, assuming that they are in free-fall, they will have fallen down below death altitude long before they will die from hypoxia itself.

More likely, mercifully, the mechanical shock and random body motion and impacts between the passengers and the parts of the aircraft as it disintegrates will incapaciate or kill outright before they get the chance to free fall. Looking at some of the pictures I see what looks like a couple intact bodies...there is always the possibility that unlucky ones survived the aircraft to be killed by impact with the ground. Hopefully they lost consciousness and didn't regain it.

Blogger jaakkeli July 17, 2014 4:22 PM  

"I'm not sure if the pro-russian separatist have the adequate anti-air."

They have been frantically deleting their old boasts Russian social media about having BUKs. VKontakte is full of all sorts of pictures of heavy gear with Ukraine rebels.

If this turns out to be true then the thing is pretty much clear:

http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-separatist-leader-boasts-downing-plane/25460930.html

Apparently the rebels have found the black boxes and are shipping them to Moscow. That will be a mistake unless, of course, they already know what happened and expect a neutral party to find them guilty.

My guess about the whole thing is that it's not Putin but sympathizers in the Russian military and border guard acting on their own allowing heavy military gear to pass (remember, Putin has to look like he's in control but in reality he probably has little power to stop the flow of volunteers and gear to Ukraine, right now the average Russian is furious about Putin not doing enough)

Those rebels now have tons of gear but they lack expert manpower and discipline so they may have had someone who can fire missiles from a BUK but who at the same time doesn't know how to identify a civilian jet and doesn't follow any standard target identification procedures.

Anonymous bob k. mando July 17, 2014 4:29 PM  

jaakkeli July 17, 2014 4:22 PM
they may have had someone who can fire missiles from a BUK but who at the same time doesn't know how to identify a civilian jet and doesn't follow any standard target identification procedures.



wouldn't THAT have been the cherry on top? if it IS the separatists AND they ( nearly ) shot Putin's plane down?

Blogger Bike Bubba July 17, 2014 4:30 PM  

My response is the same as another above. Airliner is flying through a combat zone.....why? A U.K. report claims that they even ignored numerous warnings to get the heck out of there, as other planes were being downed recently.

The word for the day is "lawsuit", boys and girls. Can you say "lawsuit"? I thought you could. Can you say "Malaysia Airlines bankrupted"? Very good.

Anonymous Cranberry July 17, 2014 4:32 PM  

Huckleberry 1977, I was in the second camp: false flag to distract from our own porous borders, etc.

I'm praying for their souls, and for the family members who grieve the dead.

And I pray we don't get plunged into war on two (or more) fronts, but it appears that between our overstretched military policing the world and our failure to police our own borders, war and inevitable loss are our ill fate.

Shibes, I read what you posted a thread or two ago about liquidating your business and buying property adjacent to your wife's ancestral home; good plan, and I wish you luck with it. We're not so fortunate to have land or money to acquire much of it, but I'm homesteading our little half-acre and doing fairly well with it, getting better and growing more every year, for much the same reasons as you: be more connected to family and the land and the means of food production. I hope that any disturbance in supply will affect us minimally if at all. God bless!

Blogger Bies Podkrakowski July 17, 2014 4:40 PM  

@jaakkeli
“Apparently the rebels have found the black boxes and are shipping them to Moscow.”
And soon the world will be informed by MAK (Russian Interstate Aviation Committee) that pilots were responsible. They were drunk and hit the tree. Exactly like in Polish presidential plane investigation in 2010.

Anonymous Cranberry July 17, 2014 4:40 PM  

IDF ground forces began to move into the Gaza Strip on Thursday evening, the prime minister's office confirmed.

Wait, wha? I just read this morning that Israel had agreed to a cease-fire...how many CFs is that since I was born? Lost count. Business as usual in the Strip, I'm almost all like {yawn} about it now.

Anonymous Noah B. July 17, 2014 4:50 PM  

"wouldn't THAT have been the cherry on top? if it IS the separatists AND they ( nearly ) shot Putin's plane down?"

If it was a Russian missile that downed the Malaysian jet, I'm guessing it has a FOF ident that would have prevented that missile from taking down Putin's plane.

Blogger jaakkeli July 17, 2014 4:59 PM  

Photos and video of the rumoured BUK in Snizhne (rebel held town very close to both the Russian border and the plane crash site) are showing up on social media:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU5NSSzYygk

If it was a mistake, it was pro-Russians as the Ukrainians don't have any reason to shoot at planes since the rebels don't have meaningful aircraft. The pro-Russians on the other hand have shot down a few planes.

Anonymous 11B July 17, 2014 5:03 PM  

If it was a mistake, it was pro-Russians as the Ukrainians don't have any reason to shoot at planes since the rebels don't have meaningful aircraft. The pro-Russians on the other hand have shot down a few planes.

That is probably correct. I doubt the russian rebels would have wanted to shoot down an airliner. they probably thought they were taking out another military transport. And let's not forget, even the US navy mistook an Airbus for an F-14. And those were highly trained servicemen.

Anonymous hygate July 17, 2014 5:03 PM  

Always remember, a liberal's intellecutal capacity far outstrips tha of any conservative.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEDH2Z2_6Zw&feature=youtu.be

Seriously, check this out, It is extremely funny. And on topic.

Anonymous Pat Hannagan July 17, 2014 5:03 PM  

Can you say "Malaysia Airlines bankrupted"? Very good.

Yeah, seems to me Malaysia has annoyed the wrong people.

Blogger rycamor July 17, 2014 5:04 PM  

Darth Toolpodicus July 17, 2014 4:09 PM
@shibes

I wish that were the case. Explosive decompression by itself at 33000 feet ASL can leave people conscious for up to 25 or 30 seconds, and by that time, assuming that they are in free-fall, they will have fallen down below death altitude long before they will die from hypoxia itself.

More likely, mercifully, the mechanical shock and random body motion and impacts between the passengers and the parts of the aircraft as it disintegrates will incapaciate or kill outright before they get the chance to free fall. Looking at some of the pictures I see what looks like a couple intact bodies...there is always the possibility that unlucky ones survived the aircraft to be killed by impact with the ground. Hopefully they lost consciousness and didn't regain it.


Just so you understand that the real world always has potential to out-freak fiction, there have been several documented cases of people falling from 20,000+ ft altitude and surviving. Some lost consciousness, some didn't. Some barely clung to life with multiple injuries, some escaped with nothing more than a few bruises and scratches.

Anonymous bob k. mando July 17, 2014 5:04 PM  

Noah B. July 17, 2014 4:50 PM
I'm guessing it has a FOF ident



and a civvy flight wouldn't have had that IFF, true.

but then, we're talking about Russian manufacturing and maintenance practices here. lots of vodka involved.


NOTAM issued last night recommending flight paths be routed outside of Ukraine ignored by Malaysian pilots:
V6158/14 - DUE TO COMBAT ACTIONS ON THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE NEAR THE
STATE BORDER WITH THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION AND THE FACTS OF FIRING
FROM THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE TOWARDS THE TERRITORY OF RUSSIAN
FEDERATION, TO ENSURE INTL FLT SAFETY,
ATS RTE SEGMENTS CLSD AS FLW:
A100 MIMRA - ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND) ,
B145 KANON - ASMIL,
G247 MIMRA - BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA),
A87 TAMAK - SARNA,
A102 PENEG - NALEM,
A225 GUKOL - ODETA,
A712 TAMAK - SAMBEK NDB (SB),
B493 FASAD - ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND),
B947 TAMAK - ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND),
G118 LATRI - BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA),
G534 MIMRA - TOROS,
G904 FASAD - SUTAG,
R114 BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA)-NALEM.
SFC - FL320.
DEP FM/ARR TO ROSTOV-NA-DONU AD TO/FM MOSCOW FIR CARRIED OUT ALONG
ATS RTE G128 KONSTANTINOVSK NDB (KA) - MOROZOVSK VOR/DME (MOR) AND
R11 MOROZOVSK VOR/DME (MOR) - BUTRI ON ASSIGNED FL.
DEP FM ROSTOV-NA-DONU AD TO DNEPROPETROVSK FIR CARRIED OUT ALONG
ATS RTE A102 KONSTANTINOVSK NDB (KA) - NALEM ON FL340 AND ABOVE.
ARR TO ROSTOV-NA-DONU AD FM DNEPROPETROVSK FIR CARRIED OUT ALONG
ATS RTE A712 TAMAK - SAMBEK NDB (SB) THEN DCT KONSTANTINOVSK NDB
(KA) ON FL330 AND ABOVE. SFC - FL530, 17 JUL 00:00 2014 UNTIL 31 AUG 23:59 2014
ESTIMATED. CREATED: 16 JUL 17:08 2014

Blogger Jourdan July 17, 2014 5:09 PM  

There were two ceasefires in the Gaza conflict, this is why there is a lot of confusion over them.

The first was at the behest of the Egyptians, who tried to broker a permanent cease fire. Israel stopped firing, Hamas did not. After a few hours, Israel began firing again.

The latested was a UN request for a five-hour humanitarian cease-fire. Again, Israel stopped firing, Hamas did not. However, Israel refrained for the entire five hours.

Typically for Muslim "fighters," forces are already finding rockets stored in UN-run schools and in some mosques as well, as any U.S. soldier with experience in either Afghanistan or Iraq would have no trouble believing.

Muslims continue to think that their grievances and their history gives them the right to wage war on their terms and that the world will stop anyone from doing otherwise. I don't know why they get away with this, but they do.

The Muslims have chosen their way of war time and time again. Until someone imposes a defeat on them, this will continue to happen, again and again.

Anonymous Mr. Stubby July 17, 2014 5:10 PM  

John “Odo” Kerry on behalf of Obama enhances sanctions on Russia.

Russia says big mistake.

Anti-fascist EU/Ukraine rebel “insurgents” say… Oopsy, our mistake.

No, wait! Oopsy… Ukraine military says Russia shot down a passenger jet with one of their missiles.

Because, ya know… Putin has to show Obama what a big man he is.

And, Putin has… everything to gain by shooting down a passenger jet.

Of course, the Ukraine military has lots of Russian missiles.

And why, exactly, did the fascist Ukrainian government allow this passenger jet fly over a hot zone?

And oh… Israel launches ground assault into Gaza.

Color me a rainbow of dubious.

Note: I was at physical therapy when I saw this on the teevee ABC. What a sight to behold. It reminded me of another time. The talking heads spewing forth what is spoon-fed them. The retired military officers and foreign policy experts from one think tank or another spouting forth their corporate sponsored pabulum of expertise. And the pictures and video played over and over again and that lucky shot of the explosion as part of the fuselage hits the ground. And… ANOTHER Malaysia passenger jet… disappears… but this one re-appears.

Behind closed doors, it is rumored that John Kerry and Barack Obama are high fiving and having butt sex secretly sending real-time video feed to the EU fascist commissars.

White House in lockdown suspicious package

Oh yoo-hoo. What about us? Don't forget about us. All us children on the border. Oh yoo-hoo.

Blogger Jourdan July 17, 2014 5:11 PM  

11B's point about my U.S. Navy mistaking an Airbus for an incoming threat is well taken. If an Aegis cruiser could make this error, certainly a bunch of irregular forces could.

Anonymous bob k. mando July 17, 2014 5:16 PM  

jaakkeli July 17, 2014 4:59 PM
the Ukrainians don't have any reason to shoot at planes since the rebels don't have meaningful aircraft. The pro-Russians on the other hand have shot down a few planes.



you just stated a reason for the Ukrainians to shoot it down.

do you understand "false flag"?

IF
the rebels are having success downing Uke military aircraft
THEN
is it easier for the Ukes to try to destroy every separatist SAM site on a piecemeal basis
OR
shoot down one civvy plane and have the whole planet demand that the separatists stop?

i would agree though, it seems likely the rebels did it. lots of intercepted radio traffic from the rebels indicating that they knew a plane should be coming down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5E8kDo2n6g

i don't understand russ or ukrainian so i'm completely dependent on transcription for this.

Anonymous Porphyry July 17, 2014 5:25 PM  

South Front- facebook/eng has rumors about potential Su-25 shooting the plane and then later being shot down by Donetsk republic. Supposedly the black box of the SU-25 is being sought. Here's the source in Russian http://www.1tv.ru/news/world/263347

Anonymous 11B July 17, 2014 5:25 PM  

11B's point about my U.S. Navy mistaking an Airbus for an incoming threat is well taken. If an Aegis cruiser could make this error, certainly a bunch of irregular forces could.

Also, the rebels have been retreating recently, and their main success in the past couple of months has been when they downed an aircraft. So if they do have a BuK, they might have been gunning for a home run. Downing a large military transport would be a huge victory.

If all the facts come in and we are able to find out who did it, I still feel it is really not as important to me as what is happening on the US border with Mexico. Yet this story will probably suck all the oxygen out of the border issue and let the McCains of this world preach endlessly about Putin and the need to confront Russia.

Anonymous Logo July 17, 2014 5:26 PM  

Russia and Ukraine are embroiled in conflict while the west is watching, plotting.

The American economy decays and its military is spent, while ISIS rises, and Israel marches on Gaza.

A giant mystery crater has opened in Siberia, the road is boiling in Yellow Stone, the climate is getting colder, while a train flies off the tracks in France.

It's like the prelude to an IRL Game of Thrones.

Blogger rycamor July 17, 2014 5:26 PM  

On Drudge Report:

MICROSOFT to lay off 18,000...

Israeli army requests 18,000 more reserves...


Coincidence???? Surely you jest, man.

Anonymous Anti-Democracy Activist July 17, 2014 5:27 PM  

A comment seen on Twitter: "I don't like this Tom Clancy novel anymore. I want to put it down now".

Anonymous Mr. Stubby July 17, 2014 5:27 PM  

Who is the intercepting party of this chatter? And again, why were Ukrainian authorities allowing passenger jets over this territory knowing that anti-fascist rebels were shooting down Ukraine military transports?

Anonymous Mr. Stubby July 17, 2014 5:30 PM  

It's like ever since 911 we have been spoon fed one catalyst... events... after another. Are you not entertained?

Anonymous Porphyry July 17, 2014 5:36 PM  

"It's like ever since 911 we have been spoon fed one catalyst..." Obama seemed unconcerned about flight being shot down. Apparently the Rethuglicans are calling him weak again. Which makes one wonder, was that the intended consequence?

Blogger LAZ July 17, 2014 5:38 PM  

"Just so you understand that the real world always has potential to out-freak fiction, there have been several documented cases of people falling from 20,000+ ft altitude and surviving. Some lost consciousness, some didn't. Some barely clung to life with multiple injuries, some escaped with nothing more than a few bruises and scratches."

http://www.oddee.com/item_96967.aspx

Anonymous Poli_Mis July 17, 2014 5:45 PM  

Can somebody smarter than me take a look at the engine(s) sitting in the debris field?

Now google all the images you can of Boeing 777 engines.

Do they look similar at all to you? I am asking legitimately.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis July 17, 2014 5:48 PM  

@ Stubby

http://www.flightradar24.com/45.96,26.74/5

I count 10 aircraft in Ukraine proper as of 21:42 with WCR3012 heading directly towards Donetsk. In all likelihood it's just a case of the Ukrainians not having the ability, their military unreadiness wasn't a secret.

There is a chance that this could be a Ukranian false flag, but that is very remote. Most of the 'evidence', if you could call it that at this point, points to a fuck up by the rebels.

Anonymous Hunsdon July 17, 2014 5:52 PM  

I'm pretty much with Mr. Stubby on this one. Everything's initial, nothing is really known. One thing is for sure: nothing good will come of this.

The rebels/separatists/terrorists (to use Kiev terminology) have been retreating, but the news the last few days about the Southern cauldron have had more than a whiff of von Paulus' last days at Stalingrad to them. This isn't news that gets broadcast much in the West, but it's seemed fairly consistent coming from the rebels/separatists/terrorists . . . whose record on reporting I trust more than the West's.

It was a hundred years ago today, Gavrilo Princip got the bands to play . . . .

Anonymous Porphyry July 17, 2014 5:55 PM  

"Now google all the images you can of Boeing 777 engines. " Im no expert, but they look a little small http://www.airliners.net/photo/British-Airways/Boeing-777-236/1557193/L/

Anonymous Cranberry July 17, 2014 5:58 PM  

Poli_Mis,

looks like the Boeing 777 have a 22 blade turbine, and from the wreckage it looks like maybe 24 blades, but it's difficult to count from the photos due to POV and twisted metal throwing off my count.

Anonymous ZhukovG July 17, 2014 6:10 PM  

It was a hundred years ago today, Gavrilo Princip got the bands to play,,,,,,

Fortunately, Vladimir Putin is not Nicholas II.

He has thus far played this thing very cool and he can easily continue to do so. Securing the Crimea has ensured that whatever happens in the rest of 'The Ukraine', this one goes down as a Russian victory.

This event was most likely a case of a rebel missile, possibly aimed at a legitimate target that evaded, that struck an unintended aircraft.

It is possible I guess that this was a deliberate act performed by CIA sponsored forces to 'encourage' the EU to jack up sanctions against Russia.

Is the United States economy in such dire straights that only WW III can save the elite?

Anonymous Poli_Mis July 17, 2014 6:10 PM  

"Now google all the images you can of Boeing 777 engines. " Im no expert, but they look a little small http://www.airliners.net/photo/British-Airways/Boeing-777-236/1557193/L/

looks like the Boeing 777 have a 22 blade turbine, and from the wreckage it looks like maybe 24 blades, but it's difficult to count from the photos due to POV and twisted metal throwing off my count.

The wreckage photos seem to show the primary fan ripped out and on the ground. The engine housing is still mostly intact with the bottom flattened.

My question is this: is the secondary fan in the housing still tall enough to be a 777 engine? Remember, these engines are huge.

Anonymous bob k. mando July 17, 2014 6:10 PM  

Poli_Mis July 17, 2014 5:45 PM
Do they look similar at all to you? I am asking legitimately.



a - the -200ER could be supplied with three different engines, not simply the GE90 turbofan
b - what you're seeing in the debris field is probably one of the interior high pressure compressor / turbine rings.
c - all 'engine pics' look to me like different angle shots of the SAME engine. and even that single engine has been so severely damaged that there's very little of it left
d - if your hypothesis is that this is NOT MH-17 then you need to explain the tail section logo shown in the 4th pic. compare to last pic of the whole aircraft.

Anonymous Poli_Mis July 17, 2014 6:13 PM  

@Bob K Mando

Good points. These are not the droids I was looking for ...

Anonymous Hunsdon July 17, 2014 6:16 PM  

A blue s/f guy comments: I don’t usually get involved in breaking news, but this is intriguing. I believe the separatists: they wouldn’t have missiles with that capability unless the Russians gave them and the Russians would have to send some technical advisors too; it’s just not likely. Russia almost certainly did not order the intercept as a matter of policy, but a Russian air defense officer might have seen the aircraft coming and ordered an intercept. Time is short in these situations. I don’t know the level of alert Russian Air Defense is on now, but I’d have thought scrambling an intercept would be more likely than firing a missile. And I can’t think of a good motive for the Ukrainians to have shot down a Malaysian airliner.

The area is on the international warning system as a war zone to be avoided.

One of the passengers on the flight send a message just before departure: it was a picture of the airplane and a tag saying this is what the plane looks like just in case it goes missing…

(Jerry Pournelle, from Chaos Manor)

Anonymous Cugel July 17, 2014 6:30 PM  

"Just so you understand that the real world always has potential to out-freak fiction, there have been several documented cases of people falling from 20,000+ ft altitude and surviving."

Here's an article providing advice should you find yourself in that situation:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/aviation/safety/4344036

Blogger Frank Brady July 17, 2014 6:44 PM  

If it was a mistake, it was pro-Russians as the Ukrainians don't have any reason to shoot at planes since the rebels don't have meaningful aircraft. The pro-Russians on the other hand have shot down a few planes.

On the contrary, the Ukrainian government (installed by the U.S. government at a cost of at least $5 billion) and, for that matter, the U.S. government have every reason to shoot down a civilian airliner--if they can successfully convince the people that "Russia did it". If this is U.S./Ukrainian false flag, things will get very ugly very quickly. Putin, ex-KGB baggage and all, is more honest than Obama and the "Chocolate King" stooge that Victoria Nuland hand picked to be the new "President" of the Ukraine.

Blogger Giraffe July 17, 2014 6:48 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Mr. Stubby July 17, 2014 6:52 PM  

I count 10 aircraft in Ukraine proper as of 21:42 with WCR3012 heading directly towards Donetsk.

Kiev has control of their air space.

Note: Anti-fascist rebels "FB page" is fake.

Anonymous Stg58/Animal Mother July 17, 2014 7:03 PM  

@Nah

Thanks for the correction!

Ah, hell! RT, per Limbaugh, claims Putin's aircraft may have been the target.

Hello, invasion.


KAL 007 was downed as a decapitation strike against the John Birch Society. Back then, it was a major threat to everything evil.

Blogger Eric July 17, 2014 7:29 PM  

Why is a commercial airline flying through a war zone?

So far the rebels have been using shoulder launched missiles and guns to attack aircraft, and this airliner was perfectly safe from that kind of thing. At 33,000 ft the airliner was perfectly safe from that kind of thing.

This is what I figure the possibilities are in order of likelihood:

The Ukranians have accused the Russians of shooting down a Ukranian SU-25 with a fighter. If the Russians are willing to shoot down a bomber with a fighter they might be willing to shoot one down with a missile. Maybe the Russians mistook the airliner for a Ukrainian military aircraft and shot it down.

Because of the SU-25, t's possible the Ukrainian government shot this thing down because they thought it was Russian fighter. Would have been the wrong kind of radar signature and coming from the wrong direction, but with time pressure... maybe. What argues against this scenario is the Ukrainian government is really leery of giving the Russians casus belli to do what they want to do anyway, which is invade and annex eastern Ukraine.

The rebels have been using shoulder launched missiles and guns thus far, but it's no secret Moscow is supplying them with weapons. Kind of iffy, though, since that kind of radar lighting up in that area would have been noticed pretty much immediately by everyone. Still... not impossible it was rebels trying out their shiny new SA-300 system.

Blogger Eric July 17, 2014 7:32 PM  

It's like ever since 911 we have been spoon fed one catalyst... events... after another.

Yeah. We call that "normal".

Blogger njartist July 17, 2014 7:33 PM  

Lame Cherry - who is a prophet - has a very interesting take on this jetliner:
To come to the subject at focal point, inquiry points to this airliner was transporting Muslim terrorists into Europe to become conduits in the Ukrainian theater against Russia. Inquiry points to Germany, Czech Republic, Albania and Kosovo having a part in this.
To put it plainly in the framework, this was an assassination group whose mission was to take out the Russian Ukrainian leadership, with the primary target Vladimir Putin along with as much as the Russian leadership as possible.
The Obama regime was aware of this group, but was not participating.

Two weeks previous Vladimir Putin was provided intelligence of this terror transport and as of last evening in confirmation, shoot down orders were issued. This was a KGB FSB operation.

Anonymous Grinder July 17, 2014 7:33 PM  

If Russians or pro-Russian rebels shot down a plane with a couple dozen Americans onboard is that a good enough reason to do anything about it militarily?

To me it makes no difference who shot it down. The west should keep its nose out of Ukraine. Civvy planes should stay clear of warzones. The families of the victims will find someone with deep enough pockets that can be sued for compensation.

Blogger CubuCoko July 17, 2014 7:35 PM  

Short version: rebels have just routed a major Kievan expeditionary force near the border (classic Cannae trap, too). The one BUK system they did capture is incomplete and non-operational; their AA capability is mostly MANPADS and AA guns, for low-flying targets (like the SU-25 ground attack planes, they've been shooting down, or transports as they try to take off/land).

Ukrainian Navy shot down a Russian airliner during "exercises" in 2001, and took years to admit to it. So it wouldn't be the first time.

Even the State Department - usually quick to blame Russia for everything - was being cautious earlier today - leading me to believe that even they knew this was done by the junta, and were hoping it could be made to go away instead of splattering egg all over their pets' faces (and by extension, their own).

In the end, people will believe what they want to believe, but I would not be the slightest bit surprised if the people who staged a sniper attack on the Maidan to justify a coup, then torched a building full of dissenters in Odessa in May, and launched a genocidal war against those who refused to submit to the junta (calling them "terrorists"), may have decided a major false-flag op was needed after a major military setback, so they could get NATO to intervene against the (nonexistent) "Russian aggressors."

Anonymous Noah B. July 17, 2014 7:35 PM  

"And I can’t think of a good motive for the Ukrainians to have shot down a Malaysian airliner."

The motive should be obvious: blame Russia. That doesn't mean the Ukrainians did it, of course.

Anonymous 11B July 17, 2014 7:36 PM  

KAL 007 was downed as a decapitation strike against the John Birch Society. Back then, it was a major threat to everything evil.

There was no nead to decapitate the JBS in 1983. They were already dwindling by then. Maybe if this had happened 20 years earlier, your theory might carry more water.

Anonymous Jack Amok July 17, 2014 7:41 PM  

On the contrary, the Ukrainian government (installed by the U.S. government at a cost of at least $5 billion) and, for that matter, the U.S. government have every reason to shoot down a civilian airliner--if they can successfully convince the people that "Russia did it".

Reading comprehension skills please. You just responded to a comment that said "If it was a mistake, it was pro-Russians as the Ukrainians don't have any reason..." by suggesting a reason for the Ukes to deliberately shoot a civilian plane down.

If they deliberately shot it down, that would mean it wasn't a mistake right?

Yes, I know, conspiracy theories are fun. But please don't get so excited about discussing them that you don't bother to actually read what anyone else is writing.

Anonymous Hunsdon July 17, 2014 7:46 PM  

Eric said: What argues against this scenario is the Ukrainian government is really leery of giving the Russians casus belli to do what they want to do anyway, which is invade and annex eastern Ukraine.

Hunsdon said: Man, I could be higher than near earth orbit, but that's certainly not my take. To me this whole thing looks like an attempt to gin up Cold War II (Electric Boogaloo), provoke the Russians into crushing Ukraine and buying lots of tanks for "The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming (This time it's personal)".

Blogger Eric July 17, 2014 8:00 PM  

Man, I could be higher than near earth orbit, but that's certainly not my take. To me this whole thing looks like an attempt to gin up Cold War II (Electric Boogaloo), provoke the Russians into crushing Ukraine and buying lots of tanks for "The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming (This time it's personal)".

Even assuming there are people in the US or elsewhere who are willing and able to do something like that, the Ukrainians certainly have no interest in going to war with Russia. The missile that downed that Malaysian plane had to come from the Ukrainians, the Russians, or the rebels, and none of them have an interest in a new cold war except possibly maybe some faction in Russia.

But the people who run Russia would lose more from a loss of trade than they'll ever gain in military contracts. In my mental Venn diagram I don't see an overlap between people who benefit and people who're capable of pulling off some sort of false flag.

99% likely this is purely the result of incompetence on someone's part.

Anonymous bob k. mando July 17, 2014 8:08 PM  

njartist July 17, 2014 7:33 PM
Lame Cherry - who is a prophet - has a very interesting take on this jetliner:




uhhhhhh.

how the fuck is a commercial flight which took off from Amsterdam and FLYING NONSTOP to Kuala Lampur supposed to be dropping assassination teams into BOTH east Ukraine and near Moscow Russia?

they just going to depressurize the cabin and chute out? dropping sticks over several hundred miles?

if the entire flight plan is false cover, why the fuck didn't they just land in Kiev and never go anywhere near the combat zone? infiltration across land is much simpler than trying to fly stuff in.

why is an assassination team full of women and children?


from the rebel side, why would you be targeting something flying at +30,000 feet?

i mean, i understand that @ 500mph descending from 30k to ground attack level would take less than 15 secs. still the pilot would have to target acquisition. unless he had somebody painting targets with a laser, the pilot isn't going to attack anything effectively from that altitude.

Anonymous bob k. mando July 17, 2014 8:09 PM  

Eric July 17, 2014 8:00 PM
99% likely this is purely the result of VODKA on someone's part.



t,ftfy

Anonymous zen0 July 17, 2014 8:16 PM  

Lame Cherry - who is a prophet - has a very interesting take on this jetliner:

Yah. "Americans on board " does not mean what it used to mean anymore.

The POTUS is a Kenyan Muslim for focks sake.

Anonymous Mr. Stubby July 17, 2014 8:23 PM  

Just for fun:

International Business Times: MH17 Crash Conspiracy Theories: Strange Coincidence Of First, Last Flight Dates

http://www.ibtimes.com/mh17-crash-conspiracy-theories-strange-coincidence-first-last-flight-dates-1631648

“Now I’m going to test your numerology skills by asking you to think about the magic seven.” – Managing Director of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) Christine Lagarde:

http://youtu.be/QYmViPTndxw

Boeing 777 – Flight 17 – 7/17/2Ø14

Anonymous zen0 July 17, 2014 8:27 PM  

why is an assassination team full of women and children?

Human shields.

I am not saying it is true, but one has to be aware of these things.

Anonymous bob k. mando July 17, 2014 8:30 PM  

njartist July 17, 2014 7:33 PM
Lame Cherry



holy shit, dude. i followed the link. how much LSD do you have to shoot up with in order to believe that crap?

Anonymous Jack Amok July 17, 2014 9:11 PM  

holy shit, dude. i followed the link. how much LSD do you have to shoot up with in order to believe that crap?

Do you mean in addition to what's apparently in the water supply?

(NB: It just occurred to me that I've been on a well instead of city water for about 15 years now. )

Blogger Hunsdon July 17, 2014 9:12 PM  

Eric said: Even assuming there are people in the US or elsewhere who are willing and able to do something like that, the Ukrainians certainly have no interest in going to war with Russia.

Hunsdon said: Hey, man, thanks for engaging. I've got a different take, mainly based on how I'd game out the scenario if I was Poroshenko (or whoever's pulling the strings in Kiev). Me, I'd be leaning heavily on the "more in sorrow than in anger" pedal. I would avoid phrases like "anti-terrorist operation" altogether. I'd be leaning heavily on traditional and well respected Soviet era phrases like "restoring constitutional order" and maybe throwing out Bible verses about the sheep that strayed.

To me (and like I said, I could be in near earth orbit), it looks like the Kiev authorities are trying to provoke the Russians . . . and it also looks to me like it's at the behest of the USG. (Cf. Brennan and Biden's visits and the near-immediate assaults against "terrorists.")

I can even spin why the Kiev authorities would want a new Cold War, with them on the front lines. Cold War between US and Russia is unlikely to go actually hot; MAD may be somewhat forgotten but there are still people who grew up in its shadow, and remember. As a front line state, Ukraine would get massive Western investment/military presence, without the likelihood of, you know, actual Armageddon. US bases, etc. Personally, I think it's insanity, but I could make the case for it.

Anonymous Billy July 17, 2014 9:39 PM  

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/?m=1

Blogger SirHamster July 17, 2014 9:47 PM  

Boeing 777 – Flight 17 – 7/17/2Ø14


Interesting. And 6 7s in that string - then you add up 2+0+1+4 = 7 for a 7th 7.

Not a lucky number for the flight, sadly.

Anonymous Godfrey July 17, 2014 10:07 PM  

... and the moron Left worships the psychopaths in government. "They're going to bring us an secular egalitarian utopia"... yeah, right... idiots.

No, you damn fools, they're going to bring us war and hell on earth.

Anonymous Stg58/Animal Mother July 17, 2014 10:15 PM  

KAL 007 was downed as a decapitation strike against the John Birch Society. Back then, it was a major threat to everything evil.

There was no nead to decapitate the JBS in 1983. They were already dwindling by then. Maybe if this had happened 20 years earlier, your theory might carry more water.


I disagree with your assessment. MacDonald was going to kickstart the second wave of the JBS' influence, that's why they took him out.

What's your theory?

Blogger Bard July 17, 2014 10:41 PM  

"Boeing 777 – Flight 17 – 7/17/2Ø14"
Mr. Stubby, that was exactly my thought after watching the Lagarde speech on Greg Hunter's Watchdog.

Blogger Bard July 17, 2014 10:44 PM  

If anyone here has not seen the Lagarde speech in reference to the mystical number 7, you should check it out. Weird shit coming from a head of the IMF.

Anonymous Frank Brady July 17, 2014 10:50 PM  

On the contrary, the Ukrainian government (installed by the U.S. government at a cost of at least $5 billion) and, for that matter, the U.S. government have every reason to shoot down a civilian airliner--if they can successfully convince the people that "Russia did it".

In response to which Jack Amok wrote, "Reading comprehension skills please. You just responded to a comment that said "If it was a mistake, it was pro-Russians as the Ukrainians don't have any reason..." by suggesting a reason for the Ukes to deliberately shoot a civilian plane down"

Your sceen name is aptly chosen.

Blogger Zimri July 17, 2014 11:01 PM  

MacDonald was going to kickstart the second wave of the JBS' influence, that's why they took him out. What's your theory?

Almost any other theory would do, including those involving carnivorous space aliens.

I mean, seriously. With Reagan in office and the ruin of the Soviet Empire upcoming, the leader of some fringe and discredited group "but with so much potential!" wasn't going to be worth the bother pro or con.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza July 17, 2014 11:02 PM  

My! No more forced fed coverage of the border or answers to the last missing plane.

Interesting times.

Anonymous Noah B. July 17, 2014 11:04 PM  

Here's another thought: Kim Jong-Un promised revenge over the new Seth Rogen/James Franco movie "The Interview." Maybe this was it.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza July 17, 2014 11:06 PM  

Bard, agreed. I was mentioning, or asking where is the banking news while all the emotionalism is geared towards women and children crossing the border, something that was taking place for years now. FT.com aling with zerohedge was wondering/covering the IMF/goldman sachs tidbits.

A few years ago we had the debt theater, the border show is over unless 2 planes and economic issues should take the spotlight.

Blogger Bard July 17, 2014 11:19 PM  

So many things happening at once. Start glancing up. Redemption and all.

Anonymous Frank Brady July 17, 2014 11:35 PM  

CuBuKoKo has it exactly right:

"In the end, people will believe what they want to believe, but I would not be the slightest bit surprised if the people who staged a sniper attack on the Maidan to justify a coup, then torched a building full of dissenters in Odessa in May, and launched a genocidal war against those who refused to submit to the junta (calling them 'terrorists), may have decided a major false-flag op was needed after a major military setback, so they could get NATO to intervene against the (nonexistent) Russian aggressors.'"

Bingo!

Anonymous Frank Brady July 17, 2014 11:39 PM  

Noah B. wrote, "Good article, Frank."

Thank you, Noah B.

Anonymous Stg58/Animal Mother July 17, 2014 11:47 PM  

So according to Zimri and A Visitor, my theory is bunk. Ok fine, why shoot down KAL 007 then? Why are there sightings of Congressman MacDonald in prison camps across the USSR?

Congressman Larry MacDonald: Prisoner of War

This guy doesn't know jack shit about what happened, obviously.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis July 18, 2014 12:00 AM  

"In the end, people will believe what they want to believe, but I would not be the slightest bit surprised if the people who staged a sniper attack on the Maidan to justify a coup, then torched a building full of dissenters in Odessa in May, and launched a genocidal war against those who refused to submit to the junta (calling them 'terrorists), may have decided a major false-flag op was needed after a major military setback, so they could get NATO to intervene against the (nonexistent) Russian aggressors.'"

Nonexistent Russian aggressors....so what do you call taking Crimea? Look do as many mental back flips as you want but if you want to abandon the tin foil for a second you will see that there is very little reason to think that the airline was shot down as part of some conspiracy.

And another thing, if you really think that conspiracy is plausible, which it really isn't, explain how the forthcoming alternative isn't true?

The rebels are mainly Russian militants who were given tacit approval, and covert aid by Russia with the promise, tacit or otherwise, that the Russians would intervene on behalf of the rebels. After the string of military set backs the rebels have had in the last few weeks, such as Slavyansk, and the increasing choke hold by the Ukranian military, the rebels become desperate and frustrated. Hearing that Putin's plane will be flying over rebel contested air space the rebels decide to try and kill the Russian leader in hopes to discredit Ukraine and draw the Russians into the war on their side, saving them from imminent military defeat. But due to lack of training with captured military equipment they instead mistakenly shoot down a civilian aircraft

There is about as much evidence supporting that hypothetical as your own. That is to say not very much.

Anonymous Toby Temple July 18, 2014 12:10 AM  

So who shot the plane? pro-russians Ukrainian rebels or Ukrainian gov?

And why did the plane went over Ukrainian airspace?

Anonymous Anonymous July 18, 2014 12:14 AM  

Drunks with rockets. And no, I'm not joking.

- Popov

Anonymous bob k. mando July 18, 2014 12:21 AM  

Jack Amok July 17, 2014 9:11 PM
Do you mean in addition to what's apparently in the water supply?



ah, i thought that was just the pseudo-estrogens talking making me believe all kinds of weird things.

Anonymous bob k. mando July 18, 2014 12:30 AM  

Toby Temple July 18, 2014 12:10 AM
nd why did the plane went over Ukrainian airspace?



by Great Circle route, it's the shortest distance.
http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=ams-kul%0D%0A&RANGE=&PATH-COLOR=&PATH-UNITS=mi&PATH-MINIMUM=&SPEED-GROUND=&SPEED-UNITS=kts&RANGE-STYLE=best&RANGE-COLOR=&MAP-STYLE=

iow, the pilots were being cheapskates trying to save fuel and so ignored the NOTAM.

questions could be asked about what kinds of criteria Malaysian airlines management is forcing on their pilots, but at the end of the day it's the final responsibility of the PIC.



Anonymous July 18, 2014 12:14 AM
Drunks with rockets. And no, I'm not joking.



i already said that.

Anonymous Anti-Democracy Activist July 18, 2014 12:39 AM  

Russia has no - none, zero, nada - reason to shoot down a random Malaysian airliner, but I can think of several parties that might have reasons to make it appear as if they did.

Blogger Steve Moss July 18, 2014 12:44 AM  

I can think of several reasons why Russia might "accidentally" shoot down a passenger airliner. One is that Obama just imposed additional sanctions a day or two back. Shooting something down may be Putin's way of letting people know he's willing to spill blood.

It's more likely, however, that it was the Russian supported separatists. They aren't that highly trained. I would be surprised if they simply made a mistake.

Anonymous Mr. Stubby July 18, 2014 12:45 AM  

It is all a propaganda game right now. Economic and control of resources and control of the Black Sea transit. My guess is that it will be pinned on the pro-Russian anti-Kiev "insurgents". Which means, under the skin... it is Russia's fault, which will be just a big win for the EuroFascists/NATO. The Project for a New American Century is in play, and has been since 911.

Blogger Eric July 18, 2014 1:10 AM  

Turns out it was the rebels after all. They actually tweeted something along the lines of "Yay! We shot down a government cargo plane!" right after the plane went down, and then deleted the tweet as soon as they realized that's not what it was.

Anonymous PhillipGeorge(c)2014 July 18, 2014 1:31 AM  

100 % false flag.
only question is why are the Malaysians being picked on?

[&the supplementary] how to support messianic Jews in the middle of the mess their colleagues are creating.

Anonymous Barko Ramius July 18, 2014 2:27 AM  

Whats with the Israel invades Gaza update? Is VD suggesting the Jews did it? Personally, Id go with the drunk Ruskies playing with their new toy scenario, but wont rule out the usual suspects.

Anonymous Shibes Meadow July 18, 2014 2:47 AM  

Cranberry: thanks for the kind words and good wishes. This is a multi-year project, so we are going to sort of feel our way through and see how it goes.

May God bless you and yours and your efforts to ensure a bright future for all.

Anonymous PhillipGeorge(c)2014 July 18, 2014 2:51 AM  

However, Swiggart explained, advanced surface-to-air systems like the SA-17 are transponder aware, meaning they can detect if they are targeting an airliner. Civilian airlines are constantly broadcasting a four-digit transponder, known as an IFF code, that designates aircraft as civilian. The code would be detected by the SA-17 if the weapons system attempted to lock on or “paint” MH17.

“It’s easy to tell the difference between a civilian aircraft or not, if you’re a skilled radar operator,” Swiggart said. “There’s really no excuse to shoot down an airliner unless you were trying to.”


even in a war zone I doubt a multi million dollar anti aircraft Surface to Air Missile system would be put in the hands of anyone with less than one days training,

add to this the diversion from normal routing and one arrives at, case proven

Anonymous PhillipGeorge(c)2014 July 18, 2014 3:21 AM  

http://www.flightradar24.com/47.92,35.92/7

looks like a bit of diversion "away from" happening around Donetsk at this moment in time

VD could you seal the deal by seeing who had all the PUT options on Malaysia Airlines this last week - or did anyone learn anything from 911 and get out of that investment strategy

Anonymous ENthePeasant July 18, 2014 3:38 AM  

Apparently everyone forgotten that Obama Akbar and the EU put some economic sanctions on Russian, including anti aircraft missiles and parts. I'm going with it was shot down by a Russian Army S-300. And after the deed was done Vlad called Obama Akbar to give him the scoop... The horses head turned up in Obama's bed!

Anonymous Mr. Stubby July 18, 2014 3:52 AM  

Turns out it was the rebels after all.

Fake account. It was a "fan" account... not rebel account.

Re: PUT Options. I was joking with someone earlier about that. PUT? Putin? That's it!

Blogger Jmac July 18, 2014 4:03 AM  

"Fake account. It was a "fan" account... not rebel account."

What source do you have that? Not saying you're wrong but something besides the rebels' word would be nice.

Anonymous Porphyry July 18, 2014 6:51 AM  

Operation Northwood --from wikipedia:
"It is possible to create an incident which will demonstrate convincingly that a Cuban aircraft has attacked and shot down a chartered civil airliner en route from the United States to Jamaica, Guatemala, Panama, or Venezuela. The destination would be chosen only to cause the flight plan route to cross Cuba. The passengers could be a group of college students off on a holiday or any grouping of persons with a common interest to support chartering a non-scheduled flight."


An aircraft at Eglin AFB would be painted and numbered as an exact duplicate for a civil registered aircraft belonging to a CIA proprietary organization in the Miami area. At a designated time the duplicate would be substituted for the actual civil aircraft and would be loaded with the selected passengers, all boarded under carefully prepared aliases. The actual registered aircraft would be converted to a drone.
Take off times of the drone aircraft and the actual aircraft will be scheduled to allow a rendezvous south of Florida. From the rendezvous point the passenger-carrying aircraft will descend to minimum altitude and go directly into an auxiliary field at Eglin AFB where arrangements will have been made to evacuate the passengers and return the aircraft to its original status. The drone aircraft meanwhile will continue to fly the filed flight plan. When over Cuba the drone will begin transmitting on the international distress frequency a "MAY DAY" message stating he is under attack by Cuban MIG aircraft. The transmission will be interrupted by destruction of the aircraft which will be triggered by radio signal. This will allow ICAO radio[14] stations in the Western Hemisphere to tell the United States what has happened to the aircraft instead of the United States trying to "sell" the incident.



Blogger njartist July 18, 2014 7:48 AM  

@Bard July 17, 2014 10:41 PM
"Boeing 777 – Flight 17 – 7/17/2Ø14"
Mr. Stubby, that was exactly my thought after watching the Lagarde speech on Greg Hunter's Watchdog.


I started paying attention to 777 after watching the Denzel Washington/Christopher Pine movie about a runaway train #777; and shortly thereafter I saw another movie featuring the same number; since I don't believe in coincidences, I began paying heed: Shortly thereafter there was an incident with that number, then the Malaysian jet.

Anonymous Bark July 18, 2014 8:01 AM  

It sucks to be witness to this end time shit. World events all pointing in same direction. Let us pray..

Anonymous Al July 18, 2014 8:12 AM  

I haven't read the comments, so I don't know if this has already been pointed out in the thread, but the Russian press is reporting that Putin's airplane had gone through the same area less than an hour before the shooting down of the 777. Funny, that. While I don't know what really happened, I'm pretty sure the Russians do (whether as victims or perpetrators), and if Putin comes to believe the West just tried to assassinate him, things will surely get "interesting" out there.

BTW, Putin was coming back from the BRICS summit in Brazil, where the BRICS announced the creation of a development bank and a contingent reserve agreement, which may come to sideline the World Bank and the IMF - if they are successful, quite a big if, of course.

Blogger RC July 18, 2014 8:22 AM  

According to the CBS website in San Francisco, 100 of the passengers were heading to Oz for an AIDs conference. Now we know it was the Russians.

Anonymous Wanderer July 18, 2014 8:56 AM  

Mish says some intelligent things about the incident:

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2014/07/did-rebels-have-buk-system-how-about.html

Anonymous PhillipGeorge(c)2014 July 18, 2014 9:08 AM  

The aids conference is going ahead: the message is that it's a heterosexual disease and discrimination is wicked. Happily married stable homosexual relationships are statistically normal - with only a slight manipulation of statistics to achieve the required results.

ps. In the absence of evidence to the contrary I suspect the bomb was on-board at take off.

Just like an exploding oxygen cylinder on a Qantas flight 30 - a near miss nearly successful take down false flag event.

That the plane was diverted to over Donetsk simply to make it a good diversion precursor to war.

[my speculation - the world now has days not months ??????] - some people in Russia will be getting really really pissed off by these things.

Anonymous Wanderer July 18, 2014 9:32 AM  

I think it was a warning to Putin.

Don't mess with our part of the world. Look what could happen.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis July 18, 2014 10:24 AM  

Pro-Russian rebels are pledging safe access for investigators
.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/missile-downs-malaysia-airlines-plane-over-ukraine-killing-298-kiev-blames-rebels/2014/07/18/d30205c8-0e4a-11e4-8c9a-923ecc0c7d23_story.html

The article repeats the claim about a rebel leader announcing that they had shot down a military transport plane and then subsequently deleting the claim once it was realized that the plane was civilian. No information given on who exactly that leader was.

Here is another Washington Post article that appears pretty good

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/world/malaysia-airline-plane-crashes-in-ukraine/

It has a graphic showing the last known location of the airliner before it crashed, the rebel controlled areas and the routes the airliner had been flying.

Anonymous A Visitor July 18, 2014 11:15 AM  

@Stg

I wasn't doubting your explanation. I never said anything like that. I thanked Nah, genuinely, for correcting me.

Blogger JaimeInTexas July 18, 2014 11:34 AM  

Was Flight MH-17 Diverted Over Restricted Airspace?
http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2014/07/was-flight-mh-17-diverted-over.html

Carlos (@spainbuca), an ATC at Borispol in Kiev, tweeted that two Ukranian fighters escorted the plane until 3 minutes before the plane was shot down. Carlos tweeter account has been deleted/inactivated:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:dSmHTIbJ9qkJ:https://twitter.com/spainbuca%2BCarlos+@spainbuca&oe=utf-8&rls=Palemoon:en-US&client=palemoon&hl=en&&ct=clnk

UPDATED – Spanish Air Controller @ Kiev Borispol Airport: Ukraine Military Shot Down Boeing #MH17:
http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/spanish-air-controller-kiev-borispol-airport-ukraine-military-shot-down-boeing-mh17/

Also, look at this:
https://twitter.com/search?q=spainbuca

Anonymous corvinus July 18, 2014 11:57 AM  

According to the CBS website in San Francisco, 100 of the passengers were heading to Oz for an AIDs conference. Now we know it was the Russians.

Well, actually the Russians have been having a problem with AIDS themselves, so I wouldn't think it would be them.

I'm still inclined to believe that it was a screwup by the pro-Russians -- but with over one-third of the passengers being in the AIDS industry, with the added twist that the screwup came from the hand of God.

Anonymous corvinus July 18, 2014 11:58 AM  

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/aids-conference-says-100-researchers-may-have-been-on-board-crashed-plane

As many as 100 of the world’s leading HIV/Aids researchers and advocates may have been on the Malaysia Airlines flight that crashed in Ukraine, in what has been described as a “devastating” blow to efforts to tackle the virus.

...

“There’s a huge feeling of sadness here, people are in floods of tears in the corridors,” Clive Aspin, a veteran HIV researcher who attended the pre-conference plenary session in Sydney, told Guardian Australia. “These people were the best and the brightest, the ones who had dedicated their whole careers to fighting this terrible virus. It’s devastating.”

Prof. Richard Boyd, director of the Monash Immunology and Stem Cell Laboratories, told Guardian Australia he was "gutted" by the losses.

"There were some serious HIV leaders on that plane," he said. "This will have ramifications globally because whenever you lose a leader in any field, it has an impact. That knowledge is irreplaceable.

"We've lost global leaders and also some bright young people who were coming through. It's a gut-wrenching loss. I was involved in the aftermath of 9/11 in New York and it brings back that level of catastrophe.

Anonymous bob k. mando July 18, 2014 12:02 PM  

Cogitans Iuvenis July 18, 2014 10:24 AM
Here is another Washington Post article that appears pretty good



now i've got a serious problem.

WP says last radar contact was near Kremenchuck while crash site is near Torez. that's well over 200 miles. you're telling me that Ukraine, at minimum a 2nd world country with plenty of tech, does NOT have constant radar sweeping eastern Ukraine ESPECIALLY over the rebel areas, simply to watch for Russian incursion?

bullshit.

SOMEBODY has that plane on radar records at least right up until whatever took it down hit it.

the only question is whether this bullshit was introduced by WP incompetence or by Ukes trying to run op.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis July 18, 2014 12:07 PM  

I don't think that information is any more reliable or even truthful than the youtube video released by the Ukrainian government supposedly instigating the rebels. If you look through the blogs earlier posts it isn't exactly unbiased in it's protrayel of the conflict. Right now we have a whole lot of hearsay by sources and conjecture by others that hasn't been substantiated.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza July 18, 2014 12:14 PM  

So sad for the victims here and the other missing place than was disappeared from the news weeks ago.

#2 100% FF.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis July 18, 2014 12:23 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Stg58/Animal Mother July 18, 2014 12:27 PM  

A Visitor,

My apologies.

Get a different name, please. Too many driveby commenters use some variation of "Visitor".

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis July 18, 2014 12:28 PM  

@ bob

For fuck sake I am not saying anything, other than people need to stop running their mouths about a false flag without any good information. I said it was good because there is a bunch of information that we can analyze and look at. There is a shit ton of conjecture right now based on video and testimonies from both sides that have no fucking merit in my opinion. This article at the very least has some actual information.

1. As you said we have the last reported position of the airliner. I can't attest to the capabilities of the Ukranian military. I know that right before the conflict it was widely reported that their military was in very poor shape with a lot of non-functional equipment. Could that extend to radar coverage? Maybe, but it does seem odd.

2. We also know that the airliner was flying a much farther northerly route than normal.

3. The airliner was flying only a thousand feet above restricted airspace. This not only raises questions of competence by Malaysia airlines but also of the Ukranian military. The rebels had tweeted that they captured some high grade equipment. The Ukrainians said it was non-functional but maybe the Ukrainians were lying then to save face. In either case, why didn't the Ukrainians completely restrict the airspace for non military aircraft.

That's it. All these videos from the Ukranians or reports from so and so is just so much bullshit in my eyes. Right people, and news programs, are picking and choosing whatever they want to fabricate the narrative that they want. You want it to be a false flag by the Ukranians? Okay there are reports and videos that you can use to make it a false flag. You want it to be an attack by the rebels? Same deal.

Anonymous Anonymous July 18, 2014 12:39 PM  

Around the same time Putin's plane was returning from the BRICS summit. It took about the same route as the downed plane and was only a few minutes behind. From the outside, both planes look the same. Make your own assumptions people.

Anonymous again July 18, 2014 12:55 PM  

Toby Temple July 18, 2014 12:10 AM
nd why did the plane went over Ukrainian airspace?


by Great Circle route, it's the shortest distance.
http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=ams-kul%0D%0A&RANGE=&PATH-COLOR=&PATH-UNITS=mi&PATH-MINIMUM=&SPEED-GROUND=&SPEED-UNITS=kts&RANGE-STYLE=best&RANGE-COLOR=&MAP-STYLE=


You will note that route is far to the north of the actual crash site.

Indeed, fly just a few miles north of the great circle route and you won't be in Ukrainian airspace at all.

Anonymous bob k. mando July 18, 2014 12:57 PM  

Cogitans Iuvenis July 18, 2014 12:28 PM
For fuck sake I am not saying anything



and *i* said nothing about you, so i have no idea why you're taking offense.

i'm just pointing out the ludicrousness of the assertion ( which was made by the WashPo, NOT YOU ) that this aircraft was out of radar contact for over 200 miles. here's a list of International airports in Uke:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airports_in_Ukraine

*every single one* of the above airports MUST have operational radar, simply to direct and control their own airspace. now, Luhansk and Donetsk are in rebel hands. i kind of doubt they're conducting operations right now.

however, Kharkiv, Kryvyi Rih and Zaporizhia are all civilian airports which likely lie close enough to the flight path that they should have been making contact.

as well, the Ukes are conducting regular .mil flights in the combat zone. i think unlikely in the extreme that the .mil is not sweeping that space regularly.


Cogitans Iuvenis July 18, 2014 12:28 PM
You want it to be a false flag by the Ukranians?



i was the first to point out that the combination of vodka and Russians is particularly dangerous.

otoh, Ukraine is the only party that benefits.


PS - my assertion about Luhansk was incorrect. Luhansk is in Uke hands and still serving .mil flights. the rebs got an Ilyu 76 on approach on June 14 and killed 49.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Air_Force_Ilyushin_Il-76_shoot-down

so, Luhansk is ALSO still operational and will have radar coverage.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis July 18, 2014 2:12 PM  

@ Bob
Not taking offense, more letting my frustration is starting to bleed out. My comments about false flags were a language fail, I should have put 'someone' not you. Your point about the radar coverage is very valid, and it is perplexing. At the minimum Ukraine is guilty of gross incompetence and they need to answer for this.

Anonymous Mr. Stubby July 18, 2014 2:17 PM  

You don't just hop into an anti-aircraft system, and point and shoot. It is rather sophisticated, and requires sophisticated training.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis July 18, 2014 2:28 PM  

True, but people are forgetting that there are ex-Ukrainian, ex-Russian and possibly a few active Russian military involved with the insurgency. It isn't outside the realm of possibility that there are individuals that have at least enough training to operate an anti-aircraft system, if not very well. That is assuming that the rebels actually possess such systems.

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