Vox Popoli: Show some sense, people

Perhaps the only thing dumber than letting a nine year-old girl fire a gun on full auto is the idea that a ludicrously ill-considered training accident will lead Americans to embrace gun control:

A nine-year-old girl has accidentally shot dead a shooting instructor who was teaching her how to use a powerful Uzi submachine gun. Charles Vacca was showing the unnamed youngster how to fire the weapon at the Last Stop outdoor shooting range in the Mohave Desert in White Hills, Arizona, when the gun recoiled as she pulled the trigger.

In a statement, the Mohave County Sheriff’s Office said the 39-year-old was hit in the head by a stray bullet as the Israeli-made Uzi kicked back. He was airlifted to the University Medical Centre in Las Vegas, where he was later pronounced dead.

A video released by the police showed the slender girl with a ponytail and wearing pink shorts being instructed in how to aim the gun by Vacca.

I'm just glad that it was the idiot instructor who was killed and not the girl, as was the case in a similar incident a few years ago. I'm not a professional firearms instructor and I understand that guns kick. No one with zero to moderate firearms experience should fire a weapon on full auto, and certainly no child who isn't going to be physically able to control the tendency of the weapon to rise.

Weapons deserve respect and demand common sense. And handing a loaded, fully automatic Uzi to a little girl demonstrates the precise opposite of both. It's a remarkably stupid and unnecessary tragedy.

Labels: gun control

242 Comments:

Anchorman August 27, 2014 4:03 PM: I blame Joss Wheedon.
Heh August 27, 2014 4:06 PM: Countless child soldiers in Africa and Syria have used automatic weapons effectively!

But do you ever hear the Left talking about these success stories? Noooooo. Classic media bias.
Alexander August 27, 2014 4:06 PM: Heh, you can't go winning threads that quickly!
Tom Kratman August 27, 2014 4:09 PM: If he'd been using a Sterling rather than an Uzi it would have been fine. Hardly any recoil, really.
Doom August 27, 2014 4:13 PM: Unlike science, firearm usage is definitely self-correcting. I don't see the problem in this particular case.

As for science, this is the only type of Darwinism I have ever seen that seems to work. Besides, I love it when science accidentally works. *bang bang, my baby shot me down* Yum!
bluto August 27, 2014 4:20 PM: What happened to new shooters get one bullet the first time (and repeat that until they're comfortable with more)?
joe doakes August 27, 2014 4:25 PM: I hope the girl is okay, emotionally. Definitely not her fault and she doesn't deserve the guilt. Somebody start a fund to get her some counseling so this idiot's mistake doesn't ruin an innocent child's life. I'll chip in.
Josh August 27, 2014 4:27 PM: Fucking morons. You're not making it any easier for our side.

Just like the idiots who decide to take selfies in chain restaurants with their ar-15's.
Salt August 27, 2014 4:31 PM: Time to bring this back out.
sir charles August 27, 2014 4:33 PM: Darwin award winner.
Salt August 27, 2014 4:36 PM: Here ya go, Tom.
patrick kelly August 27, 2014 4:36 PM: I cannot bring myself to watch any related videos, I feel sick thinking about it.

"No one with zero to moderate firearms experience should fire a weapon on full auto" Yes, x1000.
Cederq August 27, 2014 4:38 PM: Salt that was funny, I have never seen that one, but I couldn't tell them apart...
dc.sunsets August 27, 2014 4:38 PM: I was muzzle-swept by an 11-year old with a 22 pistol whose grandfather was to busy jawing to supervise his charge. It was not amusing.

I have no use for people who think kids are miniature adults when it comes to guns. And I concur: a subgun is crazy too much for a child (or even a small, novice woman.) The movement of the bolt reciprocating is, by itself, a destabilizing condition.
Profit August 27, 2014 4:39 PM: "powerful Uzi submachine gun" - 9mm is considered "powerful" now?

While Darwin got so many things wrong, I would like to keep the idea of the "Darwin Awards" around.
hank.jim August 27, 2014 4:40 PM: Safety is ALWAYS the first consideration. Young girls and everyone should be taught to fire a 9mm handgun first. Then graduate to rifles. No one should be taught to use an Uzi before learning the basics. Anyways, I would never be an instructor since I went thru the training myself and know how difficult it all is.
dc.sunsets August 27, 2014 4:42 PM: Salt, read the comments on the "ape with AK" video.

Most people are so stupid they think the video is real.

/facepalm
Simon Jester August 27, 2014 4:44 PM: Pistols first? No way.

Rifles are about as simple and as safe as you can get. Pistols, regardless of the caliber, in the hands of young children with underdeveloped reflexes, grip strength, and / or shoulder strength is something that should only be done under close supervision in specialized circumstances, if at all.

And automatic anything should be right out until a person has the reflexes and motor skills necessary to ensure the barrel is pointed at something worth destroying.
Joseph Dooley August 27, 2014 4:44 PM: If he was taking video of the training session, he was probably hoping for it to go viral (everyone loves GRLLLLLL POWER!!!) to boost his business.
jdwalker August 27, 2014 4:45 PM: http://bearingarms.com/shooting-range-employee-killed-9-year-old-mini-uzi/

As mentioned in the link, it is probably not accurate to refer to the guys as an instructor. He just recently received his CCW license and doesn't appear to be trained or certified as an instructor.
dc.sunsets August 27, 2014 4:45 PM: My preference: kids start on a 22 rifle, graduate to a 22 pistol, and the to a full size 9x19.

Most prefer the 22 rifle most of all. This is why suppressors are apparently great training aids.
Anonymous August 27, 2014 4:47 PM: It was remarkably stupid and un-necessary. Not sure what makes it a tragedy, though.

If doing something remarkably stupid and un-necessary did not have drastic consequences then the phrase would have no meaning.
Anonymous August 27, 2014 4:55 PM: "full size 9x19"

Lol
Bogey August 27, 2014 5:05 PM: "powerful Uzi submachine gun" - 9mm is considered "powerful" now?

Seems to do the job does it not?
FALPhil August 27, 2014 5:05 PM: My preference: kids start on a 22 rifle, graduate to a 22 pistol, and the to a full size 9x19.
This. I trained my daughters this way, starting when they were 6 years old. They are crack shots and can handle pistol cartridge subguns, but neither one will go near a full auto FAL. They just don't have the body mass.
Bogey August 27, 2014 5:10 PM: ...and it's neither cute nor funny for a little girl to fire an automatic weapon. Now multiple lives are ruined trying to be cute, stupid fucks.

I agree with David, seems like a no-brainer to have kid start with a .22 rifle.
Andy Oakley August 27, 2014 5:11 PM: Looks like one of those "rent a gun" operations so beloved of tourists. Not an instruction range, not a shooting school, not even an NRA course.

The Uzi being a blowback submachinegun, the bolt is relatively heavy and reciprocates with every cartridge fired, which can cause muzzle climb problems for novice adult shooters.

Agree mostly with Simon Jester on long guns vs. pistols but not quite; it's the semiauto / auto operation that is the problem with children. I have no problem handing a suitable obedient child a .22 Ruger Bearcat single action revolver, because each shot requires deliberate cocking of the hammer. It's a similar requirement to the single shot .22 Chipmunk rifle.

Since the most important thing to learn after safety is trigger control, a single shot firearm makes much sense.

This was just a stupid accident, and I have a great deal of sympathy for the child. Everyone else involved is an idiot.

Nobody would put a 9 year old into the seat of a Formula One car and expect her to drive it, y'know.
Bogey August 27, 2014 5:13 PM: I have a great deal of sympathy for the child. Everyone else involved is an idiot.

Yes, this.
Miguel D'Anconia August 27, 2014 5:13 PM: Sadly this poor child has to live with this retarded BS. I can see letting her fire it on single shot then working up but what a dumb ass. A high price to pay for stupidity. A darwin award winner for sure.
dc.sunsets August 27, 2014 5:13 PM: "Full sized 9x19"
"LOL"

Okay, how about "an all-steel, 39 oz (unloaded) 9x19, and not a subcompact M&P Shield 9x19."

Feel better, or does this thread have to degenerate into "all alpha males only shoot 40 and above pistols, 308 and above rifles, and 12 gauge or larger shotguns?"
The More You Know... August 27, 2014 5:21 PM: If you're going to let a nine year old fire a machine gun, it might be a good idea to use one that's mounted on a tripod.
dc.sunsets August 27, 2014 5:21 PM: I prefer the 22 rifle because I could safely redirect the muzzle if there was a moment's break in concentration.

I'm not sanguine about redirecting a pistol that is moving away from muzzle-down range.

Anyone who has had a spent case find a path down their shirt should understand that a child will likely lack muzzle discipline if suddenly being burned. Lots of loaded pistols have broken the 180 because of this issue, and not just with kids.
Unknown August 27, 2014 5:22 PM: What a strange funeral it will be..
BassmanCO August 27, 2014 5:22 PM: My middle son learned to shoot on a .22 rifle, .380 (I think it was a Kahn) and a Glock 9 mm (don't judge, it wasn't mine). At eight. And before he touched any of them he received lectures from his grandfather and me on gun safety. Then he had to demonstrate that he understood all of the rules before he was allowed to shoot.

I thought all of that was standard procedure before allowing a child to use a tool that could kill another person.
dc.sunsets August 27, 2014 5:25 PM: @FALPhil
FA FAL? Thanks, but no thanks. Sounds like Major Bruises.
Markku August 27, 2014 5:25 PM: If you're going to let a nine year old fire a machine gun

A submachinegun is a machine gun in name only.

Like most Republicans.
Markku August 27, 2014 5:29 PM: We call them "konepistooli" = "machine pistol".
Bogey August 27, 2014 5:31 PM: Glock 9 mm (don't judge, it wasn't mine)

Nobody is going to L-O-L while standing in front of a 9mm.
ThirdMonkey August 27, 2014 5:31 PM: Not only do people need to know how to properly handle firearms, they need to witness what kind of damage a firearm is capable of. When I was a kid, my father fired one round of JHP from his .45ACP at a gallon jug of red jello that he made for just the occasion. He asked me if I was ever going to play with his gun, and I never did. I have used the same demonstration for my children, hoping it will have the same effect on them.
TLM August 27, 2014 5:34 PM: Stupid 'instructor' & Stupid parents, poor kid. And who wants to fire that piece of s&it weapon, made famous by Hollywood (that means you Chuck Norris Invasion USA).
James Dixon August 27, 2014 5:37 PM: > I agree with David, seems like a no-brainer to have kid start with a .22 rifle.

Single shot, bolt action. Savage and Crickett models are both sold at Cabelas and are designed with younger shooters in mind.
Anonymous August 27, 2014 5:38 PM: A gun thread might be a good time for a question:

I have been conceal-carrying a .357 for several years and am in the market for something else for myself, and my older daughters and sons. I would appreciate recommends. I figured this was probably the place for more advice than I could ever use - but I'm game. Thanks in advance.
James Dixon August 27, 2014 5:39 PM: > When I was a kid, my father fired one round of JHP from his .45ACP at a gallon jug of red jello that he made for just the occasion.

If we had had children, that was my plan as well. Probably at about 5 or 6, sooner if they expressed curiosity. I'd probably have used the old soap bar/.22 though. I think even that would be enough to get the idea across.
Res Ipsa August 27, 2014 5:40 PM: Too bad. I feel bad for the little girl. The "instructor" should have known better.

Kids can fire almost anything an adult can BUT it takes training to handle recoil effectively. I'm an adult male weighing over 200 lbs with over 30 years firearms experience and I make sure I'm positioned correctly when firing full auto. It doesn't matter if I'm shooting something lite like a m-4 or something heavier like a m-14. Even a 9mm will climb in adult hands if the person doesn't know how to correct and control. There is no way a 9 year old girl has the size or upper body strength to effectively control a full magazine discharge. She should have been taught correct burst control technique and not allowed to pull back the trigger on a full mag.
Bogey August 27, 2014 5:47 PM: What a strange funeral it will be..

Now only if that Westboro bunch would show up.
Noah B. August 27, 2014 5:49 PM: "I have been conceal-carrying a .357 for several years and am in the market for something else for myself, and my older daughters and sons. I would appreciate recommends."

Where are you located?
More Sisu! August 27, 2014 5:50 PM: Markku
We call them "konepistooli" = "machine pistol".

Thanks. And what did the Rooskies trapped in motti during the Winter War call them, I wonder? "Oh, no, not THAT again…." or something else?
Res Ipsa August 27, 2014 5:51 PM: Rabbi B,

That's a great question but you haven't given us enough information to be helpful to you. Drop me a line at resispa (at) vcn.com or pose the same question at my place (I'm 704 Houser over on the right sidebar) or Nates. We'd be glad to help.

Your moniker says you are a Rabbi. If this is true would you be willing to help me understand some questions I have concerning some Hebrew academic issues? Thanks
Outlaw X August 27, 2014 5:52 PM: I have been conceal-carrying a .357 for several years and am in the market for something else for myself

WHY?
jdwalker August 27, 2014 5:53 PM: Rabbi B - "I have been conceal-carrying a .357 for several years and am in the market for something else for myself, and my older daughters and sons. I would appreciate recommends. I figured this was probably the place for more advice than I could ever use - but I'm game. Thanks in advance."

Hopefully you get some good advice, but with all the negative 9mm comments, I'm not sure this is the best place. They'll probably recommend hand cannons where I would think a pocket 9mm would be better for concealed carry. I would recommend checking out Nutnfancy's recent videos comparing a wide range of pocket 9mms. Regardless of what you think of the man, his videos contain good information and comparisons among the many options.
Andy Oakley August 27, 2014 5:54 PM: Rabbi B
I have been conceal-carrying a .357 for several years and am in the market for something else for myself, and my older daughters and sons.

Depends as Noah mentioned on your locale, your permit, and how much time you are willing to dedicate to a different operating system. Really running a semiauto pistol is not that difficult but it will require some different skills than your revolver. Any handgun must fit the hand of the person running it, so don't go off picking a new pistol for your children, especially your daughter, without having them try first. Dryfire, then live fire on a safe range.

Not everyone is comfortable with a semiauto, either.

Need more information, Rabbi B. to even have a useful opinion.
Nate August 27, 2014 6:00 PM: "WHY?"

my thoughts exactly. You have the most effective man stopper there is right there on your hip buddy.
Nate August 27, 2014 6:03 PM: "Feel better, or does this thread have to degenerate into "all alpha males only shoot 40 and above pistols, 308 and above rifles, and 12 gauge or larger shotguns?"

The 9mm crowd... I swear you people are the gammas of the firearms world. You dream up your little reality and desperately hide it and hate anyone and anything that would drag you out of it.

unfortunately this isn't just about you not getting laid... this is also about you maleducating people... which may end up getting them killed.

So yeah... one more time we're going to point out that you're being stupid and 9x19 is ineffective.

Crazy thought... maybe pull your head out of your ass and carry a decently powerful weapon. Or... just keep risking your life and trying to convince others to risk theirs too... whatever...
Dark Herald August 27, 2014 6:05 PM: @Rabbi B

If you live in the USA, my advice would depend rather heavily upon which state you live in.

In addition I would need to know what you consider the most likely security threats for yourself and your family.
dc.sunsets August 27, 2014 6:05 PM: M&P Shield in 9 (40 if you prefer) with the Apex trigger kit & Heinie straight 8 sights. The trigger is ideal for a carry gun in my opinion: fairly long take-up, hard stack, breaks at about 4.5 lb, perhaps 1-1.5 mm overtravel. Very conducive to deliberate fire as well as very quick reset for controlled pairs.

The 9 is quite mild, less than a PPK in 380, without the blast of a snub 357.

Your mileage may vary. Carry guns are quite a personal preference thing. I prefer flat subcompacts.
dc.sunsets August 27, 2014 6:09 PM: Nate when you reach the ankles in knowledge of Dr Gary Roberts, let us know. Until then, your comments about the 9 are simply laughter-inducing.
http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#9mm
bw Deep Investigative Serious Subj Matter Male August 27, 2014 6:11 PM: Propaganda.

I mean, look at all alike videos. I know, right?
Outlaw Automobiles and Children.
Anonymous August 27, 2014 6:14 PM: Glock 19/23/36

Crossbreed Supertuck at 4 o'clock

Decent belt.

Glad the instructor got it. The last time I heard something like this I think a boy died. People can be so stupid.
jdwalker August 27, 2014 6:15 PM: Nate - "The 9mm crowd"

I wouldn't consider myself part of the "9mm crowd" if that is supposed to connote that I think 9mm is all that anyone should ever shoot. It is a capable round, especially in certain loads, that is suitable for concealed carry depending on your circumstances. I simply disagree that someone is risking their life or risking others by suggesting that a 9mm may be an acceptable conceal carry option.

But if you think you need a larger caliber (and usually reduced round count) and are willing and able to invest in making sure you are proficient and accurate with it and you can conceal carry it the way you want, then by all means go for it.
Tom B August 27, 2014 6:27 PM: I'll ask if no one else will -- false flag?

After all, with the events in Missouri scaring the White folks about rampaging Black folks (thus the need for militarized police, which the Neo-cons are supporting and the Tea Party/Libertarians aren't; guess who the White voters are going to support in the midterms?), up-in-arms Black folks (who weren't going to vote in large numbers before but probably will now), and now an appeal to gun control (so the only ones with the guns are the militarized police)....

Is this a Kristallnacht moment or am I being too Machiavellian..
Vidad August 27, 2014 6:34 PM: I took one of these to the range a couple of weeks ago:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/springfield-armory-xds

The kick was easy to control and not tiring, despite the small frame and large caliber. My accuracy wasn't nearly as high as with my Glock 17, though almost every shot was in the kill zone. Groupings tended to the left.
A Visitor August 27, 2014 6:35 PM: "No one with zero to moderate firearms experience should fire a weapon on full auto, and certainly no child who isn't going to be physically able to control the tendency of the weapon to rise."

Exactly! I've shot an Uzi and a PKM both on full auto. The Uzi was actually the easier of the two, once you get used to the muzzle flip and how it handles on full auto. Regardless, full automatic fire even if it were chambered for .22 LR was too much for that kid. She's 9! Hopefully the instructor's death will cause others to think twice before allowing such foolishness to occur. I echo another commenter who said she hopes the girl gets a fund going and some counseling. She's too young to be traumatized like that.

"Young girls and everyone should be taught to fire a 9mm handgun first."

I'd respectfully disagree. .22 LR (like a Browning Buckmark) to start. There's no recoil and they learn proper shooting technique at the same time. Starting them off with 9mm could lead to flinching.

"9mm is considered "powerful" now?"

It's the media. They wouldn't know a clip from a magazine or centerfire cartridge from a rimfire if someone said, "This is a clip and this a rimfire."

"Feel better, or does this thread have to degenerate into 'all alpha males only shoot 40 and above pistols, 308 and above rifles, and 12 gauge or larger shotguns?"

You asked, I'll answer. I have a Browning 9mm Hi-Power and a Ruger LCP (the latter which I regret ever having bought). I prefer .45s (though I don't personally own one) due to their stopping power as evidenced by documented shootings with 230 grain .45ACP Hydra-SHOKs over the years.

I prefer an AK over an AR due to two reasons: 1) lack of maintenance and 2) ruggedness. The tradeoff, of course, is a heavier rifle and more weight on the combatant, carrying less ammo on the field.

"We call them "konepistooli" = "machine pistol""

When I think of machine pistols, I think of the Skorpion or that Finnish made (yes, that was intentional Markku ;-) ) one that the bad guy in Red Dawn carried. When I think of submachine guns, I think of Uzis or MP-5s.

"I have been conceal-carrying a .357 for several years and am in the market for something else for myself, and my older daughters and sons. I would appreciate recommends. I figured this was probably the place for more advice than I could ever use - but I'm game."

I'd recommend a Smith and Wesson .357 revolver. As Outlaw X and Nate said, "WHY?"
Nate August 27, 2014 6:43 PM: "Nate when you reach the ankles in knowledge of Dr Gary Roberts, let us know."

yes... I am well aware that there plenty of people who tell you what you want to hear. I'm also well aware that when I point out the epic flaws in Roberts BS claim you'll stick your fingers in your ears and squeal. Because its been done already on this blog and mine a few times already to the exact same effect.

But... we may as well shoot it to hell one more time...

1) Roberts cherry picked the guns used. For example he used a 357 with a 2 inch barrel... but a .44mag with a 5 inch barrel. He covers barrel length and its effects... but by using different barrel lengths in these weapons he's ruined his own findings.

2) This is not a real world study. This bullshit conjecture based on ballistic gel and denim speculation. You're betting your life on a model. Nothing else.

3) http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power There is another flawed study as there was some severe cherry picking done in the conclusions... but you will note it was done by actually looking at real world shooting... not divining conclusions from gel patters. You will note the 1 shot stops for the 9mm is 34%. Compared to the 40... with is 45%. In fact... the 9mm's 34% is far closer to the .22lr's 31% than it is to any of the other popular self defense rounds.

So just to sum up...

You're wrong. And your Dr Roberts is no different than a geologist with a narrative. He doesn't "know" anything. He has a nice set of data that is likely entirely unrelated to the real world.
patrick kelly August 27, 2014 6:53 PM: Anyone here been in a firefight with handguns? Been shot? Shot anybody?

If so, I'll gladly consider your observations or advice about 9mm vs. .45 ..whatever. Everybody can stfu afaic, it's all just 2nd hand BS.......

FWIW I love full size 1911's in .45, but *I'm* much faster, more accurate, and can deliver more flbs/second with my Hi-Power in 9mm. That's just me, and I wouldn't even pretend to know what's best for anyone else....
Nate August 27, 2014 6:54 PM: "I simply disagree that someone is risking their life or risking others by suggesting that a 9mm may be an acceptable conceal carry option."

I simply disagree that someone is risking their life or risking others by suggesting that a .25acp may be an acceptable conceal carry option.

now... do you see what's wrong with that yet? Lets try again...

I simply disagree that someone is risking their life or risking others by suggesting that a 22lr may be an acceptable conceal carry option.

how about now? Now do you see what's wrong with it?

Look if there is some physical limitation that means they have no choice... fine... anything is better than nothing. When we're talking about the best options though... 9mm has no place in the discussion.
ashepherd August 27, 2014 6:57 PM: I'm just glad that it was the idiot instructor who was killed and not the girl, as was the case in a similar incident a few years ago.

Totally agree. I am sick over what this girl might have to go through the rest of her life. And the so-called "parents" were watching this. None of them should have been out on that firing range considering their foolishness.
Nate August 27, 2014 6:58 PM: "If so, I'll gladly consider your observations or advice about 9mm vs. .45 ..whatever. Everybody can stfu afaic, it's all just 2nd hand BS......."

False.

see the study I linked. Those are stats from real world documented shootings. Put your head in the sand if ya want. When it comes to 1 shot stop... you 9mm is slightly better than a .22LR.
patrick kelly August 27, 2014 6:59 PM: re: that buckeyefirearms stud -

Hell, that incapacitation chart indicates my lil' .32 is a better one shot stopper than 9 or 45, are you sure you read it all?
Huckleberry -- est. 1977 August 27, 2014 7:00 PM: What's wrong with the .357?
Without knowing why you're looking elsewhere, it's hard to know which way to advise.
Nate August 27, 2014 7:01 PM: As for this article... I think its clear that we have to implement massive restrictions and licensing on full-auto weapons.

oh wait...
Nate August 27, 2014 7:02 PM: "Hell, that incapacitation chart indicates my lil' .32 is a better one shot stopper than 9 or 45, are you sure you read it all?"

yeah I did. The fact that you bring that up indicates you didn't. Look at the sample size on the .32. The author addressed it as well. Its a very small sample and size and shouldn't be given much consideration.
Profit August 27, 2014 7:03 PM: Thinking back to when I first shot a real firearm (not counting BB-guns), the experience, safety and methods of that Christian Camp did it very well. Though I never did get to take the full marksmanship course, they were very clear about how to be safe and the rules of the range. They also made us begin shooting wooden-stock, single-shot .22 rifles in the prone position.

I wonder how many Christian boys-camps still teach marksmanship? I know the Boy Scouts still do it, but I would guess the overall numbers to be down from the late 80s.

PS: 9mm is a fine round, most importantly b/c I was able to actually buy some over the weekend... 350rnds for $90... not bad... now if only cheap bricks of .22lr would start to show up.
jdwalker August 27, 2014 7:03 PM: Nate - "If there is some physical limitation..."

Now that we are starting to put in qualifiers that would change the equation...

My point was the blanket dismissal of 9mm as "ineffective" is incorrect, and that my position is that the 9mm is often a better option for conceal carry than a 357, especially when taking into account the ability of the user. For many, they can become more proficient and accurate and thus more deadly with a 9mm than with a larger caliber. And the larger round count in what is usually an already reduced round count concealed carry weapon can be advantageous for someone who isn't in a controlled situation where they are having to fire under stress.

What's best for you is not best for everyone, and 9mm can be a superior concealed carry option for a lot of people. I would suggest for the majority of people.
Nate August 27, 2014 7:08 PM: "If so, I'll gladly consider your observations or advice about 9mm vs. .45 ..whatever. Everybody can stfu afaic, it's all just 2nd hand BS......."

Also... remember Underwater Operative? Used to comment here a lot. He's a SEAL. I met him up in kentucky and sipped some fine whiskey with him.

He's been shot at. He's shot people. He carries a .45.

Lots of folks have been in armed confrontations. Talking about them on the internet is a bad idea for a number of reasons. I'm not saying I have or haven't. I'm just saying the reality of this world we live in is such that sharing stuff like that is a bad idea.

Some things you only talk about over a beer.

Some things you never talk about. Ever.
patrick kelly August 27, 2014 7:11 PM: "Look at the sample size on the .32. The author addressed it as well. Its a very small sample and size and shouldn't be given much consideration."

How bout' that, here's other stuff he addressed. Notice the conclusions of the guy who actually did the study: (you're opinion is 2nd hand)

"One other thing to look at is the 9mm data. A huge number (over half) of 9mm shootings involved ball ammo. I think that skewed the results of the study in a negative manner. .....I personally believe that the 9mm is a better stopper than the numbers here indicate..........And I've stopped feeling the need to strap on my .45 every time I leave the house out of fear that my 9mm doesn't have enough "stopping power.".....
patrick kelly August 27, 2014 7:14 PM: yeah, I'd much rather drink whiskey with you than troll you here.....Nate's 9mm button is a fun one to push sometimes.......in moderation.....
Markku August 27, 2014 7:18 PM: or that Finnish made (yes, that was intentional Markku ;-) ) one that the bad guy in Red Dawn carried.

I almost pointed out earlier that, had she been firing Jatimatic, nobody would have died.
Res Ipsa August 27, 2014 7:22 PM: jdwalker,

You almost had a point then you said:

9mm can be a superior concealed carry option for a lot of people. I would suggest for the majority of people.

Do whatever you like. I'm not going to tell you otherwise. But your statement that its best for the majority of people indicates that you don't have anything useful to add to the discussion on this topic.

Rabbi B is using a 357. What possible benefit would he gain from a 9mm? Increased magazine capacity. I guess that's important if he is planning on missing a lot.

FWIW Nate hates the brand I use for a primary carry gun. That's OK he doesn't know any better. Nate also hates the caliber of my back up, a 9mm BTW also in a brand he doesn't like. Again that's ok too. What he is 100% correct on is his premise that stopping the bad guy as fast as possible is the best course of action. AND the 9mm isn't the BEST round for that job.

I for one would never get into a firefight with a hand gun if I could use a shot gun. Then I would rather have a rifle. IF possible I'd rather have one of my long range rigs (and the distance) than a carbine. If at all possible I would rather have armor and close air support than any of the above.

Don't try preaching smaller is better. It might work on your date, but its not going to fly here.
Tommy Hass August 27, 2014 7:22 PM: It's weird talking to people that are so naturally anti gun, they can't even conceive allowing weapons to people other than Law Enforcement and military.
Dark Herald August 27, 2014 7:22 PM: @Rabbi B

I should caveat my advice. I spent most of my meaningful adult life as a United States Marine. Consequently I don't really know anything at all about self-defense.

Kicking in the door and dominating a room with sheer fire power and with a hyper adrenalized team of highly trained young men at my back, yes. I know all about that.

But you have a different tactical situation. You are by yourself. You have been ambushed. Your predators have scouted the ambush site. It can be assumed they have chosen a site with few avenues of escape available to you.

First how often can you train? The answer to that is less than once every two months, go with a revolver instead of semi-automatic. Less rounds but no clearing procedures for your hands to memorize in an a emergency, Just pull the trigger a second time.

Second get an umbrella insurance policy because it doesn't' matter how much in the right you were when you pulled the trigger. You are getting sued. It should run you about $200.

Is your threat inside the home or outside?

If you are concerned about home invasion, keep in mind you will be facing three invaders. Ask any cop and they will tell you, these days it is always and without exception three home invaders. You will need something with a high capacity magazine. You will be firing inside a room. A magnum will deafen you on the first shot and you will need all of your senses for the other two invaders. In addition you have to worry about shooting family members due to over penetration. Keep that in mind when selecting your weapon.

Next: One Shot One Kill = Macho Stupid Bullshit.

First, if you have to shoot someone don't shoot them just once.

Second , since you are getting sued regardless, you don't actually need to kill whoever you are shooting. If your opponent is left rolling on the ground screaming, maybe thats good enough. Maybe you won't hesitate to pull the trigger, if you aren't guaranteed a kill.

Sure it would be nice to have one less criminal in the world. But proto-criminals are mass produced by unskilled labor. Bottom line; you are saving your life, not playing the lead in Deathwish VII.

Lastly for your daughter. I am assuming she is primarily concerned with sexual assault. The statistics speak for themselves, a rape is completed 01% of the time in face of any armed resistance. A Smith and Wesson J-frame .22 long will do just fine. Eight rounds is an excellent magazine capacity for a revolver and a revolver is utterly reliable.

There are no points for style or coolness when your ass is on the line.
Nate August 27, 2014 7:22 PM: "Now that we are starting to put in qualifiers that would change the equation...

My point was the blanket dismissal of 9mm as "ineffective" is incorrect, and that my position is that the 9mm is often a better option for conceal carry than a 357, especially when taking into account the ability of the user."

Yes. You're totally correct. I put the exact same qualifications on the 9 that I put on the 22lr. That should tell you something.

As for your position... you're observably wrong. the study I linked demonstrates it nicely. Look at the failure to stop numbers. it appears there is a floor for most centerfire rounds about 13%. It is there for the 9... the 357... the 40... This indicates to me that there is certain percentage of the population that just cannot shoot.

If the 357 was more difficult to handle... you'd expect the total failure numbers to be higher due to more people simply unable to hit the target at all. We don't see that.

what we see is... it is one of the most consistent numbers in the study actually which is very interesting to me. There are lots of potential conclusions to try to draw from that... and that is where experiments should be done. Note only the 25, 22, and 32 had failure to stop rates over 20%.

I think the best argument for the 9 to be made is that it has similar failure to stop rates as all the other rounds. But even that is a double edged sword. All it really says is 1 shot with a 22lr is just about as effective as a 9mm... but multiple shots with a 9mm are more effective than multiple shots with a 22lr.

Faint praise indeed.

The plain truth is there is a very big difference between a .357 and a 9mm in the real world.
dc.sunsets August 27, 2014 7:24 PM: Nate, Roberts operates at the level of those who decide what weapons will be issued.

I'm sorry I allowed myself to get into this fruitless debate. All heat, no light, saturated with confirmation bias. The man asked a question, some offered opinions, others just want to shout louder.

Enjoy your Big Guns. Don't forget the lube.
Nate August 27, 2014 7:29 PM: "Second , since you are getting sued regardless, you don't actually need to kill whoever you are shooting. If your opponent is left rolling on the ground screaming, maybe thats good enough. Maybe you won't hesitate to pull the trigger, if you aren't guaranteed a kill. "

WHOA WHOA

This is terrible.. terrible advice.

You don't touch your gun until you decide you have to stop someone at all costs. You shoot center mass exactly like you train.

You aren't going to have a chance to choose where yo ushoot them. You'll shoot where you've trained to shoot... or you'll panic and spray bullets all over the place.

You will have no idea how many times you pulled the trigger. This is demonstrated over and over again. You don't try to kill the dude. You try to save your own life. Generally it will mean the badguy dies. Legally its better than way anyway. Your side of the story is the only side.

There is a big difference between being sued and going to jail.

Also... when the cops show up... you say only "I need some time to calm down." They will understand. Some of them will have been there before themselves. You don't open your mouth until you remember what you are supposed to say. And what you are supposed to say is "I shot until he stopped coming at me." You repeat that and only that. They will ask you over and over how many times you shot. Give no number. "I shot until he stopped coming at me." Trust me. You don't know how many times you shot. They know you don't know how many times you shot. they are trying to get you to screw up and tell them something that is factually false to start to build a case.

DO NOT LET THEM.

"I shot until he stopped coming at me."

Then call a lawyer.
dc.sunsets August 27, 2014 7:30 PM: The one shot stop Marshall and Sannow stuff has been debunked endlessly, with some of their sources publicly stating that they were never contacted.

Note on Correia's blog, two "operators" who've killed people vehemently disagreeing on the utility of the M4/5.56.

I just suggest that the louder ones insults, the weaker ones position. Most people shoot 9's better than they do mags, 40's or 45's. Most people practice more with more pleasant-shooting calibers. If you're not most people, knock yourself out.
jdwalker August 27, 2014 7:31 PM: Res Ipsa - "What he is 100% correct on is his premise that stopping the bad guy as fast as possible is the best course of action. AND the 9mm isn't the BEST round for that job."

Implicit in my responses is agreement that stopping the bad guy as fast as possible is the point. Is 9mm the best round for that? I don't think so, and I never said that. Is 357 the best round for that? I don't think that is true either. There are bigger badder calibers out there. You are going off on a tangent.

Nate's reply is more on target. Again, I don't disagree with the basic premise that a 357 has better 1 shot stopping power than a 9mm. That's not the issue. The issue is whether the 9mm is a better option for a lot of people. Perhaps Nate has a point about the total failure rate. I would want to know if it is over inclusive of law enforcement and military, as opposed to a good sample of civilians that often do not train as much as they should. And the added costs of the 357 round I think does encourage a lot of people to think they are good enough and the rounds too expensive to put in proper range time. And from my experience the majority of people are more accurate with a 9mm than a 357.

With Nate's response, maybe I'll put more effort into reading the cited reports, but I'm not willing to concede that the 9mm with heavier loads is a capable round that serves many people very well in defensive situations.
Anonymous August 27, 2014 7:31 PM: Don't forget the lube

You have no idea...

Hay, going for a walk in the woods tomorrow...what's the best caliber for bears?
Nate August 27, 2014 7:31 PM: "Nate, Roberts operates at the level of those who decide what weapons will be issued."

Really? isn't that the level where the military decided that 9mm wasn't good enough?
Nate August 27, 2014 7:33 PM: 'Hay, going for a walk in the woods tomorrow...what's the best caliber for bears?"

454 casull
Nate August 27, 2014 7:34 PM: " I would want to know if it is over inclusive of law enforcement and military, as opposed to a good sample of civilians that often do not train as much as they should."

The study is all cop and civilian shootings I beileve. We don't have the military shot data... though the fact that they want to go bigger than the 9 certainly has implications.
John Williams August 27, 2014 7:34 PM: what's the best caliber for bears?
The largest you can handle.
Nate August 27, 2014 7:36 PM: "Most people shoot 9's better than they do mags, 40's or 45's. Most people practice more with more pleasant-shooting calibers."

I think that's conjecture.

Again... 13% failure for the 9. 13% failure for the other calibers.

Explain.
Markku August 27, 2014 7:37 PM: Sako, the Finnish rifle manufacturer, recommends 30-06 for bears.
dc.sunsets August 27, 2014 7:37 PM: In case someone still has a slightly objective view on this:
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4337-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Duty-and-Self-Defense-Ammo
Markku August 27, 2014 7:38 PM: (But note that the European black bear is smaller than the grizzly bear)
dc.sunsets August 27, 2014 7:40 PM: Quote:
A very experienced senior SOF NCO who has battled many of our Nation's foes and who has the distinction of having used 9mm, .40, and .45 Auto pistols in combat during various phases of his career wrote the following superb analysis discussing pistol calibers recently:

“Not getting into the weapons transition issues from frame design to frame design (it's the reason I love to hate the Glock), the fact of the matter is that the recoil on the G23 crosses the magic line of running the shit out of your pistol. Allow me to explain... Most of the guys mentioned that they can handle the reduced size of the 19 and the recoil increase over the G17 is acceptable. Most of us have also determined that this does NOT cross over to the .40 cartridge. Guys with a firm handle on recoil manipulation can use the G22 and G35 with acceptable results. However when you go down to G26's and G23's, the juice is not worth the squeeze. The recoil is now noticeably effecting times and it's measurable. If you can't effectively control recoil and are wasting time allowing your pistol to settle between shots then this is all a wash and means nothing to you, but if you can apply the fundamentals effectively you will quickly see that you can't run a sub compact 9 or a compact .40 worth a shit. So a decision to accept a larger pistol in order to have an acceptable recoil impulse based upon caliber must be made. The smallest 9mm Glock recoil that I will accept is the G19 and I will not go below the G22 when bumping up to .40.”
Nate August 27, 2014 7:40 PM: "The one shot stop Marshall and Sannow stuff has been debunked endlessly, with some of their sources publicly stating that they were never contacted."

i find it particularly telling that you bring this up... even though none of us have sited Marshall and Sannow. Nor have we sited anything that uses their data. The study I sited is the result of a man collecting the data himself.
The other skeptic August 27, 2014 7:41 PM: Also... when the cops show up... you say only "I need some time to calm down." They will understand.

I agree with that. Also tell them you need to see a doctor because you are in shock. Then they have to attend to your needs.

Some of them will have been there before themselves. You don't open your mouth until you remember what you are supposed to say. And what you are supposed to say is "I shot until he stopped coming at me." You repeat that and only that.

I disagree slightly with that. You should preface it with "I was afraid for my life" or "I was afraid that he would kill me or cause grievous bodily injury" "so I kept shooting until he stopped coming at me."

These phrases, IMO, help you pass the reasonable person test in any subsequent trial, and in a bunch of states there will be one.
Anonymous August 27, 2014 7:41 PM: Also considering a 1911 or a Glock, which should I buy?
The other skeptic August 27, 2014 7:43 PM: To amplify, when they ask you to tell them what happened, stick to the bare minimum. Do not go overboard with description that can cause problems/contradictions later during a trial if an overzealous prosecutor decides to make a lesson of you.

Remember, you will likely be in shock so you might not be thinking clearly.
dc.sunsets August 27, 2014 7:43 PM: Quote:
In the last decade or so, ammo engineers have produced a superb generation of 9 mm projectiles that offer penetration in the ideal range and that are capable of good performance after common intermediate barriers. As many agencies are discovering, modern robust expanding, barrier blind 9 mm ammunition is performing on par with larger caliber handgun loads, but offers substantial fiscal and training benefits. In test after test, most officers demonstrate a higher qualification score when shooting 9 mm compared to other common service calibers. Smaller statured officers and those with small hands tend to shoot better with 9 mm. Service pistols tend to be more durable in 9 mm than those in 357 Sig and .40 S&W. In a time of fiscal austerity, 9 mm ammunition is certainly less expensive. For most LE duties, there are a lot of advantages in carrying a 9 mm: easy to shoot-- especially one handed, relatively inexpensive to practice with, lots of bullets immediately on tap. When I injured my strong hand a few years ago and lost its use for several months, I found out how much more effective I was using a G19 weak handed compared to a .45 Auto 1911. I suspect in the near future many LE agencies will shift back to 9 mm given the benefits noted above.
Nate August 27, 2014 7:44 PM: "A very experienced senior SOF NCO who has battled many of our Nation's foes and who has the distinction of having used 9mm, .40, and .45 Auto pistols in combat during various phases of his career wrote the following superb analysis discussing pistol calibers recently:"

Yes... and a couple days ago I ripped a dude claiming to be a spec ops sniper with 20 years of experience to shreds for claiming that the 9mm was longer than the 38 special and that's why the bullets travel faster.

Bullshit is bullshit.
The other skeptic August 27, 2014 7:45 PM: Also considering a 1911 or a Glock, which should I buy?

Buy them both. They are both good to shoot with.

I like the feel of the 1911 but it is a pain when it comes to cleaning time.
Laz August 27, 2014 7:45 PM: @ Cataline Sergius: All good advice but, what's the incentive to leave the trash alive when you live in a state where you are free from civil prosecution when you're found to be in the right (no arrest or no-billed)?
Dark Herald August 27, 2014 7:46 PM: Really? isn't that the level where the military decided that 9mm wasn't good enough?

Well when fighting jihadis that can't wait to get to Allah and have in consequence jacked themselves up on so much speed that they won't go into shock. Then yes, I admit freely that 9mm will be inadequate.

I assume that you are willing to grant, that the average personal defender in the USA is unlikely to run that problem.
Nate August 27, 2014 7:47 PM: "These phrases, IMO, help you pass the reasonable person test in any subsequent trial, and in a bunch of states there will be one."

the reason I always limit it to one phrase is because in that state... one phrase is likely all you will be able to remember and say.

You will be wanting to ramble. You'll be wanting to talk. do not let yourself do that. Do not talk.

any weird appearance can be explained by "dude I was in shock." No one expects you to be reasonable after you shot someone. If you were... they'd think you were psycho.

1 phrase. then shut up till the lawyer gets there.
Anonymous August 27, 2014 7:49 PM: Do you think 223 is enough for survival?
Nate August 27, 2014 7:49 PM: "I assume that you are willing to grant, that the average personal defender in the USA is unlikely to run that problem."

No I'm not. I think you'll find a big similarity in the behavior of psycho jihadists and pissed off acid heads.. meth heads... coke heads... whatever.

and what you've just conceded is... "well as long as the guy I have to shoot isn't REALLY crazy... I should be fine." Good luck with that.
Noah B. August 27, 2014 7:49 PM: "So yeah... one more time we're going to point out that you're being stupid and 9x19 is ineffective."

Nate, I'm getting the impression that you don't like 9mm...

I definitely don't agree that 9mm is always a bad choice. The most important factor in picking a concealed carry handgun is picking one that you will actually carry and keep as close to you as possible, as much of the time as possible. Every other consideration is secondary. So, most of the answer to the question of "what gun is best for concealed carry" depends on you and what you're willing to put up with. In short, you want the most gun that you are willing to carry all day, every day.

I get the impression that Nate isn't content with anything less than a .357 on each hip. If so, and he carries them on a daily basis wherever he goes, good for him. But realistically, that probably is not going to be you. Most people who get CHL's do not carry their guns on their person.

For carrying a sizeable pistol concealed, there are three basic options: shoulder holster, on the waist, or inside a bag (purse, fanny pack, etc.). For a shoulder holster, you need a shirt or a jacket that's heavy enough not to blow around easily, which can get hot. But you can easily draw from a seated position and it's a reasonably comfortable way to carry. Carrying on the waist, you have to wear a long shirt, not tucked-in. The main drawback here is that it doesn't work well if you have to dress formally. Carrying in a purse/fanny pack is highly convenient. The main drawback is that the weapon is not as quickly accessible most of the time. And if you're a guy wearing a fanny pack, prepare to get a lot of strange and dirty looks. People don't notice slight bulges under shirts, but they notice fanny packs and tend to be alarmed by them.

If you're not willing or able to use one of those three methods all day every day, you need a smaller gun. This opens up some other carry options, like an ankle holster or pocket holster. The largest pistol you can realistically carry this way is a small 9mm. A .380 is not a terrible way to go, but you are definitely losing effectiveness rapidly. Forget .25 ACP and .32 ACP, those bullets are too light and too slow. If you need something smaller than a .380, go straight to a .22 Magnum.

My current solution is a Glock 26 in a Fobus holster on my hip, with a Glock 17 and some extra mags nearby (the extra Glock 17 mags work in the Glock 26).
Nate August 27, 2014 7:51 PM: "I assume that you are willing to grant, that the average personal defender in the USA is unlikely to run that problem."

do you even realize you just destroyed your own position? You just admitted that the 9mm is not effective against determined attackers. I do believe the vast majority of those carrying them believe that they ARE effective against determined attackers.

That's the point. That's the problem.
Kelfa23 August 27, 2014 7:53 PM: "what's the best caliber for bears?"

A 1911 .45acp with the front sight filed down….so when the bear takes it and shoves it up your ass it won't hurt so much. A .22lr pocket pistol works best seriously, just nail your buddy in the leg with it as soon as you see the bear so you can slow him down for bait while you get out of dodge.
Nate August 27, 2014 7:55 PM: "I get the impression that Nate isn't content with anything less than a .357 on each hip. "

Steyr M40A1 and a 357... sometimes 2 steyrs (right hip, and cross draw because its faster than reloading) sometimes a steyr and a .357. Sometimes just the 357.

Also... this... "get what you will carry" nonsense is a bad idea. Discipline people. Get a proper weapon and discipline yourself to use and carry it.
jdwalker August 27, 2014 7:55 PM: Noah B. - "shoulder holster"

Keep in mind that many consider shoulder holsters to be suboptimal and dangerous given the higher potential for sweeping yourself and others when drawing, especially for someone who doesn't properly train with them.
Anonymous August 27, 2014 7:57 PM: I've been told the AK is vastly superior to the AR. Is that right?
clk August 27, 2014 8:00 PM: You guys not even arguing about the same thing.
Dark Herald August 27, 2014 8:02 PM: Nate, nothing personal in this but you are clearly in search of a best case scenario for the use of your prefered caliber.

Regardless of the most likely tactical situation a typical home defender will face.

Which certainly isn't going to be a Coke-head as today's typical Coke-head is a lot more likely to be found nostril hoovering lines at Marquee in Manhattan, than mugging anybody in an ally in Flatiron.
Noah B. August 27, 2014 8:02 PM: "Steyr M40A1"

Nice gun you got there. Is that a Glock? = )
kfg August 27, 2014 8:04 PM: " . . .especially for someone who doesn't properly train with them."

Don't not properly train. Problem solved.
Markku August 27, 2014 8:05 PM: Is that some kind of dadaism or something, Noah? A Steyr is obviously a Steyr.
Dark Herald August 27, 2014 8:10 PM: I figured this was probably the place for more advice than I could ever use - but I'm game. Thanks in advance.

@Rabbi B

You're welcome.
The other skeptic August 27, 2014 8:11 PM: I've been told the AK is vastly superior to the AR. Is that right?

Are you trying to cause a flame war?
Nate August 27, 2014 8:11 PM: "Keep in mind that many consider shoulder holsters to be suboptimal and dangerous given the higher potential for sweeping yourself and others when drawing, especially for someone who doesn't properly train with them."

On this we agree. Shoulder holsters look cool... but like the lower back carry option... its not the best idea.
Noah B. August 27, 2014 8:11 PM: No, just a joke. I have nothing at all against Steyr. Never shot one, though.
Nate August 27, 2014 8:12 PM: "Nate, nothing personal in this but you are clearly in search of a best case scenario for the use of your prefered caliber. "

No mate.

A caliber is only as good as its performance in the worst case scenario. Being good enough "most of the time" is the argument used by people carrying 22s.
The other skeptic August 27, 2014 8:12 PM: WWKB? (What would Kratman buy)
Res Ipsa August 27, 2014 8:13 PM: 45-70 lever action for bears. FWIW a 30-30 isn't a bad choice either.
Nate August 27, 2014 8:13 PM: "Is that some kind of dadaism or something, Noah? A Steyr is obviously a Steyr."

its like a Glock... except it has way more steal and way less gay.
Nate August 27, 2014 8:15 PM: "45-70 lever action for bears. FWIW a 30-30 isn't a bad choice either."

Can't argue with it. Though the .50 beowulf is ballistically similar and has the word "fifty" in the name.
Nate August 27, 2014 8:16 PM: "Regardless of the most likely tactical situation a typical home defender will face. "

The answer to the most likely tactical situation a typical home defender will face... is a shotgun.. not a pistol.
Noah B. August 27, 2014 8:19 PM: What holsters do you use, Nate?
Nate August 27, 2014 8:28 PM: options are limited with the steyrs... I have always liked Kydex (ymmv) and I prefer paddle holsters. But with the wheel guns I always use leather. holsters are deeply personal and what one guy loves another guy hates. Its just the way it is. Same with handgun fit. I'll rail against the 9.. but if a glock feels better in your hand than anything else... and you're more accurate / faster with it... then I'd say buy it. Granted I would assume you were a brick person from minecraft... but still...
Nate August 27, 2014 8:29 PM: specifically I am getting an ACE Gen 2 holster for the steyrs soon... and I'll put up a blogpost about how it works out.
Andy Oakley August 27, 2014 8:33 PM: Hay, going for a walk in the woods tomorrow...what's the best caliber for bears?

Where? Black bears or grizzly? Lower 48 or Alaska? Ever shot what you carry or is it just gonna be a +4 Talisman of Confidence?

Markku suggested 30-06, that's a good start. More than enough for many black or brownies in the lower 48. A bit deficient in Montana or other grizzly country.
A lot of people in Alaska carry some verson of the Marlin 45-70. And by carry I mean "on your person all the time when out of doors".
Nate August 27, 2014 8:33 PM: right now I use galco...Fobus makes holsters for the S model though.
Markku August 27, 2014 8:40 PM: It also occurs to me that you might be shooting the bear to remove the danger, and not for its meat. That's going to change things. The Sako 30-06 recommendation is for the purpose of leaving as much of the meat intact as possible. If what you want is to guarantee death instead, then higher calibers will be appropriate.
Dark Herald August 27, 2014 8:48 PM: @Rabbi B

One last thing. Do yourself a huge favor. Consult an attorney familiar with the case law in question.
Nate August 27, 2014 8:49 PM: "Where? Black bears or grizzly? Lower 48 or Alaska? Ever shot what you carry or is it just gonna be a +4 Talisman of Confidence? "

Boys... if you're going into the big woods... a 454 casull will do the job. 300 grain bullet... 2000 fps. Strap it to your hip and go about your business. Now that's talking about defense... Hunting bear... I'd take the 45-70 res recommended or my 50 beowulf.
Nate August 27, 2014 8:51 PM: " If what you want is to guarantee death instead, then higher calibers will be appropriate."

no one ever went wrong by shooting a grizzly with a 338 win mag.
Noah B. August 27, 2014 8:58 PM: A friend of mine goes bear hunting every few years and likes a .375 -- not sure if his is H&H or Win Mag.
Nate August 27, 2014 9:01 PM: "Don't not properly train. Problem solved."

exactly. The Pro-9mm position is literally "Well you probably will have inadequate training so you should also have an inadequate weapon."
Salt August 27, 2014 9:01 PM: Against a grissly? I could always use my Ruger 458 Lott, but damn does it hurt.
James Dixon August 27, 2014 9:03 PM: > Regardless of the most likely tactical situation a typical home defender will face.

The most likely tactical situation a typical home defender will face calls for a shotgun.
Ah, I see Nate beat me to it.
Skillet August 27, 2014 9:04 PM: I have a good friend who was a Ranger in the Gulf War. He became a sniper, and a damn good one too. Before that when he was a newbie he carried his issued M9, which was backup in case his rifle malfunctioned, etc. Well it happened one day and he fired an entire mag of 9mm ball (only thing military can use due to Geneva Convention) into a towelhead insurgent and the guy was still able to stand, move, aim and fire his AK. My buddy had to find cover, reload, and shoot the ahole a couple more times to take him down.
Back at the ranch he went to the 1st Sgt right away: "What the fuck is this POS?!" Sergeant told him hey we're Rangers son, we don't have to carry the same shit they give the regular grunts. So what did he end up taking into battle? A .45. Kimber. One shot stopping nearly every time. He sent a lot of ragheads to meet allah with that piece.
Now THAT'S real world no-BS for ya.
James Dixon August 27, 2014 9:06 PM: > Markku suggested 30-06, that's a good start.

Agreed. The key word there is start. It's the absolute minimum I'd recommend for bear. Of course, what I know about guns is less than a tenth of what many here know.
Nate August 27, 2014 9:09 PM: "I could always use my Ruger 458 Lott, but damn does it hurt."

y'all realize a .454 casull is basically a 45-70 in a handgun right? Much easier to carry and it is good for anything you'll find in North America.
Nate August 27, 2014 9:15 PM: "So what did he end up taking into battle? A .45. Kimber."

Oh man... I was with ya... right up until you said Kimber.
jdwalker August 27, 2014 9:17 PM: Nate - "Boys... if you're going into the big woods... a 454 casull will do the job. 300 grain bullet... 2000 fps. Strap it to your hip and go about your business. Now that's talking about defense... Hunting bear... I'd take the 45-70 res recommended or my 50 beowulf."

I wonder if I can get Nate going by citing to the rangers suggesting bear spray for defense against grizzlies instead of firearms because the statistics show that bear spray was more effective than firearms (largely because people kept missing with their big ass guns or worse tried to use a gun that wasn't a big ass gun).
Nate August 27, 2014 9:30 PM: http://m.jsonline.com/more/news/crime/aldi-customer-wont-be-charged-in-shooting-sk42et0-138688529.html

Shot with 9mm in the forehead and in the leg.

Ran away.

now... I'm a little sketchy on the details here. It says he had a steyr 9mm... and he cocked it? Maybe it was an old steyr but steyr has been making only striker fired pistols for oh... 15 years or so. I suppose he could have an old Steyr GB... but we're talking about a very rare firearm here.
Nate August 27, 2014 9:31 PM: "I wonder if I can get Nate going by citing to the rangers suggesting bear spray for defense against grizzlies instead of firearms because the statistics show that bear spray was more effective than firearms"

you can. In fact I have a giant rant somewhere on my blog about that very thing.
paradox August 27, 2014 9:31 PM: rufusdog
I've been told the AK is vastly superior to the AR. Is that right?

Dear God... someone's trying to start a holy war.
The other skeptic August 27, 2014 9:38 PM: He probably meant that he racked the slide.
Nate August 27, 2014 9:41 PM: "Dear God... someone's trying to start a holy war."

maybe 10 years ago. That war is largely over. The ARs won.
Phil Moskowitz August 27, 2014 9:53 PM: Scalzi's daughter could have held onto that thing.
clk August 27, 2014 9:55 PM: Yes ... the bear spray is recommended over a firearm but not becuase of of lethality but rather beause bears move so fast that you cant get off a shot... the bear spray creates a wall of deterent.

The people who have to deal with polar bears, Inuits.. use 12 gauge slugs from Mossbrg 500'S and old 303 Brits.
Nate August 27, 2014 9:59 PM: "Yes ... the bear spray is recommended over a firearm but not becuase of of lethality but rather beause bears move so fast that you cant get off a shot..."

So you can draw and fire a can of pepper spray... but you can't draw and fire a firearm.

...

K

Or maybe there studies are idiotic and biased and they want to try to convince people not to use guns.
jdwalker August 27, 2014 9:59 PM: Nate - ha, I will have to look for that. And not to under gun you yet again, but my choice and recommendation to others when I was in grizzly backcountry this summer was 44 magnum. But of course I don't have a 454 casull and don't see ammo for it often.
Nate August 27, 2014 9:59 PM: It should be noted that these are the same dumbass rangers that tell you to put bells on your feet.
Done with it all August 27, 2014 10:03 PM: The instructor was an idiot, and it killed him.

All young shooters should only have one round in the chamber and the instructor should be prepared to commandeer the weapon at any moment.
kfg August 27, 2014 10:05 PM: " . . .12 gauge slugs from Mossbrg 500'S . . ."

The cure for pretty much whatever ails you, unless it has something to do with your hearing or shoulder pain.
Done with it all August 27, 2014 10:11 PM: Nate, the 9 is fine. It's fearlessness and shot placement Jasbo.

Why do all little red necks drive jacked up trucks and carry guns bigger then they are?
Nate August 27, 2014 10:14 PM: "Nate, the 9 is fine. It's fearlessness and shot placement Jasbo. "

This idea that 9s are inherently more accurate than other rounds is complete bullshit. Look I get it... you people are huge pussies and you don't want to go to the range and train and drill with a real gun... so you pretend your 9 is good enough.

Good for you.

Crazy thought... carry an adequate weapon and train.
Noah B. August 27, 2014 10:14 PM: exactly. The Pro-9mm position is literally "Well you probably will have inadequate training so you should also have an inadequate weapon."

Damn sure not my position. Thorough training is essential.

"It should be noted that these are the same dumbass rangers that tell you to put bells on your feet."

Otherwise known as dinner bells.
Nate August 27, 2014 10:16 PM: " But of course I don't have a 454 casull and don't see ammo for it often."

***shrug*** there is a big difference betwen the 454 and 44 mag... but you dance with the girl what brung ya.

Ruger makes the Alaskan... and Taurus of course has several Raging Bull options.
Nate August 27, 2014 10:17 PM: "Damn sure not my position. Thorough training is essential."

of you're gonna train... then you may as well train with an adequate weapon... and no some kitty shooter.
Noah B. August 27, 2014 10:23 PM: The accuracy factor is, for me, a good argument for the .45 ACP. I had heard growing up that large automatics weren't accurate -- and then I shot a Springfield 1911. It's like the thing was in perfect tune with my mind, with each bullet going exactly where I wanted it to.
Andy Oakley August 27, 2014 10:25 PM: So you can draw and fire a can of pepper spray... but you can't draw and fire a firearm.

Pepper spray = cone
Firearm = power drill

For most people in the woods who have never even held a firearm, pepper spray is as good a +1 Talisman of Confidence they will get.

Because most people who ask park rangers about bears are idiots.
Andy Oakley August 27, 2014 10:27 PM: Taurus of course has several Raging Bull options.

If they come with that stupid key lock on the hammer, fugeddaboutid.

Failure mode is "immoble hammer".
Noah B. August 27, 2014 10:29 PM: Some experts say that if you're considering using pepper spray against a grizzly bear you should remove the handle first. That way, it won't hurt so much when the bear shoves it up your ass.
Andy Oakley August 27, 2014 10:30 PM: ...but my choice and recommendation to others when I was in grizzly backcountry this summer was 44 magnum.

Not undergunned as long as you have run a cylinder through it in the last 30 days. I know two Alaskans who practice monthly with steel frame .44 Mag, but carry Scandium .44 Mag while out and about, in addition to their Co-Pilot 45-70. Buffalo Bore cartridges…hot stuff with deep penetration.
Dr. J August 27, 2014 10:36 PM: I've been happy with the Springfield EMP in 40s&w for conceal carry. It's pretty pricey but has a nice heft for such a small piece and sports a 1911 frame. I can't tell you how many gang bangers I saw in the trauma bay who survived 5+ shots from a 9 mm.

Nate has the right of this via-a-vis stopping power. Of course always use hollow point. Internal bleeding is much faster no matter the caliber.
Andy Oakley August 27, 2014 10:45 PM: I can't tell you how many gang bangers I saw in the trauma bay who survived 5+ shots from a 9 mm.

Shot placement matters no matter what the caliber.
Nate August 27, 2014 10:51 PM: "Failure mode is "immoble hammer"."

I don't get the fear of this. Buy the gun... throw the key away. Done. its not like it can fail and suddenly lock itself.
Nate August 27, 2014 10:53 PM: "I've been happy with the Springfield EMP in 40s&w for conceal carry. It's pretty pricey but has a nice heft for such a small piece and sports a 1911 frame."

Springfield! good man. Does the .40 snap in the EMP like it does on a lot of poly weapons?
Noah B. August 27, 2014 10:53 PM: "Of course always use hollow point."

This seems to be a matter of disagreement as well, at least concerning the 9mm. Vince diMaio concluded that there was little overall difference in the lethality of 9mm hollowpoints vs. FMJ for the reason that hollowpoints more frequently fail to achieve adequate penetration.
James Dixon August 27, 2014 10:56 PM: > I wonder if I can get Nate going by citing to the rangers suggesting bear spray for defense against grizzlies instead of firearms because the statistics show that bear spray was more effective than firearms

Well, the bears prefer that you use it. It's their equivalent of cajun seasoning on their food.

> Nate, the 9 is fine. It's fearlessness and shot placement Jasbo.

If size really doesn't matter, do the obvious thing suggested by the comparison data Nate linked to: Carry a .22lr automatic. It's light, cheap, easily concealed,and it has almost as much stopping power as the 9mm. And you can get lots of practice with it at a low cost.

Strange how the 9mm folks never draw that conclusion.

Look folks, if you can't or won't shoot or carry a .a .357 or .40+, then fine, use a 9mm. But don't pretend it's in the same class. it isn't.
Nate August 27, 2014 10:59 PM: "Because most people who ask park rangers about bears are idiots."

they really are. We lived in knoxville for a couple years and I swear there were a couple buckeyes getting eaten every year in the national park. And driving through Cades Cove one time we saw another dumbass get out of his minivan and walk over to take pictures of a couple blackbear cubs. Everyone was shouting at him to get away from them and flicked us off. So when mama showed up and he ran like a bitch it was very satisfying.

Unfortunately she didn't eat him. Dammit.

For the record that dumbass was from Ohio too...
Andy Oakley August 27, 2014 11:00 PM: its not like it can fail and suddenly lock itself.

Yeah, the Taurus hammer lock can fail and the mode is "hammer locked".
Know of a case on a .41 Magnum. Owner sent it back, Taurus replaced, owner sold the replacement. How often does it happen? No idea, maybe he got the only one. Possibly more likely on heavier recoiling revolvers? Could be.

Is this purely anecdotal? Yup.

Would I own one? Nope.
Redjack August 27, 2014 11:00 PM: Lord help us, someone got Nate on 9mm
James Dixon August 27, 2014 11:01 PM: And before anyone decides I'm a big gun bigot: The only pistols we own are a Ruger Mark II and a S&W 622.
Andy Oakley August 27, 2014 11:02 PM: "Of course always use hollow point."

Except in New Jersey, where just possessing the stuff is a crime.
Noah B. August 27, 2014 11:02 PM: "Strange how the 9mm folks never draw that conclusion."

The Secret Service is beginning to adopt the 5.7mm.
Nate August 27, 2014 11:03 PM: I wonder how many people just assume the .45 kicks SUPER HARD without ever trying one? I dunno maybe they try a 9 and its fine...so then they try a .40 and its a pretty big difference so they decide to stick with a 9 assuming the 45 will be even worse.

To me... the .40 is a much quicker sharper kick in most weapons than a .45 is. The .45 feels slower... less sudden.... less snap. Just tonight I had a 100 pound chick tell me she couldn't tell the difference in a 45 and 9mm in two glocks.
Nate August 27, 2014 11:03 PM: "Except in New Jersey, where just possessing the stuff is a crime."

***shrug***

Anyone that lives in Jersey is an idiot.
Andy Oakley August 27, 2014 11:05 PM: nd driving through Cades Cove one time we saw another dumbass get out of his minivan and walk over to take pictures of a couple blackbear cubs. Everyone was shouting at him to get away from them and flicked us off. So when mama showed up and he ran like a bitch it was very satisfying.

"Today on Wild Kingdom we see the wonders of nature as a sow bear mauls an idiot then feeds the remains to her cubs…"

Must See TeeVee!
James Dixon August 27, 2014 11:06 PM: > Except in New Jersey, where just possessing the stuff is a crime.

Living in NJ is a crime.
Nate August 27, 2014 11:06 PM: " Owner sent it back, Taurus replaced, owner sold the replacement. How often does it happen?"

Are you certain this dude didn't just lock it and lose the key and made up some story to make himself not look like a dumbass?

I mean you have to twist it out like a screw. I guess if I were worried about it... and I'm not.. I would use the key and open the thing (up is locked, down is unlocked)... put some red locktite on it... and twist it back down.
Andy Oakley August 27, 2014 11:10 PM: I wonder how many people just assume the .45 kicks SUPER HARD without ever trying one?

SUPER HARD recoil? Yeah, 30+ years ago it was the "man-handling recoil" I was hearing about.

Most gunstore 'experts' are idiots.

Last time I was at an IDPA match there was this 4'11" soccer mom running reloaded RNL through a beat up old Springfield Armory .45 ACP without a problem…
paradox August 27, 2014 11:11 PM: Nate
Just tonight I had a 100 pound chick tell me she couldn't tell the difference in a 45 and 9mm in two glocks.

And this is why the stupid unwritten rule... noobs should only shoot 9mm should die. 45 recoil is better than 9mm or 40. Noobs should be given 45 to start with, then move to 9mm and finally 40.
Andy Oakley August 27, 2014 11:12 PM: Taurus

Are you certain this dude didn't just lock it and lose the key and made up some story to make himself not look like a dumbass?

Hm. Not sure, so since MPAI, could be exactly that. Not around here any more so I can't ask him.

I mean you have to twist it out like a screw. I guess if I were worried about it... and I'm not.. I would use the key and open the thing (up is locked, down is unlocked)... put some red locktite on it... and twist it back down.

Or just remove it if possible and fill in the hole with appropriate material. I could live with that.

But in general I don't like guns with keys on them. Not S&W, not Taurus.
Nate August 27, 2014 11:13 PM: ". Noobs should be given 45 to start with, then move to 9mm and finally 40."

Or just stick with .45 and call it a day.

Shooting the badman with a .45acp has never been a bad decision.
Hunsdon August 27, 2014 11:13 PM: Rabbi B asked about a 357 Magnum as a carry gun.

The magical answer is, "It all depends." A S&W J-frame .357 is a whole different beast than a S&W 3" 13 (K frame). I was born a sucker for revolvers, had a long phase of 1911 heresy, and yet remain a sucker for revolvers. A K-frame S&W in .357 Magnum was, is, and shall remain (to quote Bill Jordan) "the peace officer's perfect sidearm."
Nate August 27, 2014 11:17 PM: "But in general I don't like guns with keys on them. Not S&W, not Taurus."

I have a couple taurus wheel guns... a tracker in .357... and a raging bull in .454. neither have had a problem. I will certainly keep an eye on it though. I may even try to torture test the .454 to see if I can make it happen.
Andy Oakley August 27, 2014 11:20 PM: To me... the .40 is a much quicker sharper kick in most weapons than a .45 is.

That's because it is. Faster burning powder, sharper impulse. That's why most first generation .40's didn't last long, manufacturers thought they could take 9x19mm frames and just rework them slightly to run .40 S&W. Spring life was shorter, frame cracking, unsupported chamber problems.

I wanted one, and got a couple that I still have, but frankly that caliber never lived up to its hype for me. Some like it a whole lot, more power to 'em.

One of the few kBOOM! events I've ever seen was classic: early Glock in .40 S&W running reloads with cast lead bullets. Trifecta! Definitely voided the warranty, but no serious injury.
Nate August 27, 2014 11:23 PM: "
One of the few kBOOM! events I've ever seen was classic: early Glock in .40 S&W running reloads with cast lead bullets"

No way. That couldn't have happened. We are reliably informed that Glock products, like apple products, just work. All the time. And nothing ever goes wrong. Ever.
clk August 27, 2014 11:27 PM: Not how the spray works ... theres no aiming .. its hangs on you belt, you squeeze and it makes a big cloud 20 to 25 feet around you as you turn.

For one of these big cal pistols you are not quick drawing so the likelihood of you to see, draw, aim and shot.. and hit what are very small vital areas on a charging bear is unlikely. More a few dead canadiqns are found with theor guns not drawn...
Noah B. August 27, 2014 11:29 PM: I had a .357 jam one time when I ran some reloads with the maximum powder charge through it, instead of working up to it like you're supposed to. The brass backed out of the cylinder enough to keep it from rotating. Every time. After 4 shots I pulled the rest of the bullets I'd loaded. But no kBOOM.
Andy Oakley August 27, 2014 11:31 PM: We are reliably informed that Glock products, like apple products, just work. All the time. And nothing ever goes wrong. Ever.

Well, sure, that's how it is with Perfection. Just ask Gaston.
Andy Oakley August 27, 2014 11:38 PM: The brass backed out of the cylinder enough to keep it from rotating. Every time. After 4 shots I pulled the rest of the bullets I'd loaded. But no kBOOM.

You were probably getting close, though. I once saw a Ruger SP 101 that had kBOOM!ed. The cylinder was cracked all the way through, the topstrap was bulged up a good 1/4 inch. The idiots who wanted the gun dealer to send it back to Ruger for warranty swore up and down they'd not been running hot handloads. Dealer passed it to his gunsmith, who looked at the forcing cone with good magnification - serious erosion. Ruger gave them some credit towards a new gun, no idea how much.

No idea what load they were actually running, if they were cheap and using something like Unique they might have double charged a case.

But one thing was impressive, the revolver was in enough of one piece that the failure was contained & neither moron injured.

Another way to jam a revolver: squib load. Bullet half in the cylinder, half in the forcing cone. No big deal, just push the bullet back in then unload the cylinder. Did that once with a revolver that had been in the truck for mumble-mumble months during the summer. And the fall. And the winter. And…well, shucks.

There's a good reason right there to change carry ammo regularly. Best if shot up at the range, of course.
jdwalker August 27, 2014 11:45 PM: Clk - what bear spray do you use? Every one I've ever handled and seen sprayed requires you to point the discharge nozzle where you want it to go. It only sprays in one direction...it's not a fogger. And it helps to not spray into the wind, otherwise you just hit yourself.
Dr. J August 28, 2014 12:17 AM: The EMP is nice - no recoil on 40S&W at all. Compared to my XD in the same caliber it's a dream to shoot. Don't get me wrong - I'll take the XD as a car piece given the number of rounds it can hold. But for size and accuracy, the EMP is a great carry gun.

I have to agree with you on the 45 as well. I'm quite a bit more accurate on my 1911 than my Ruger in 9mm. Plus the boom from the 45 is awfully satisfying. Wife loves the Ruger, though, and I think that speaks to the physical differences a bit.

On that note, we'll have to part ways. Got the Kimber for a 1911, and would take that thing to hell and back.
Res Ipsa August 28, 2014 12:20 AM: In the US the park service people have to wait until the bear draws blood before they can use a firearm. They can use spray at any point. That's why you hear them saying to use the spray.

It is illegal to carry a firearm in most areas of National Parks. Not that you can't get away with it.

More a few dead canadiqns are found with theor guns not drawn...

I actually know Canadian handgun owners. Unless they are police they can't carry handguns in the field. The handgun can only be used on an approved gun club property. If its different on Tribal Land or in the Territories I haven't heard.

A rifle on a quick draw scabbard on your pack is a better choice than a hand gun in bear country. I hunt/fish in bear/wolf/cat country all the time. The main reason to carry a handgun is weight and accessibility

1 – 200 of 242 Newer› Newest»

Rod Walker	Nick Cole
Martin van Creveld	Jonathan Moeller
John C. Wright	Rolf Nelson
Mike Cernovich	David the Good
David VanDyke	B.V. Larson
Jerry Pournelle	Cheah Kai Wai
Peter Grant	Sarah Salviander
Ivan Throne	Steve Keen
Robert Beale	LawDog
C.R. Hallpike	Jon Del Arroz

NON-FICTION DOWNLOADS

DOGGEREL

BOOK LIST 2020

POLITICAL THEORY

ATHEIST DEMOTIVATORS

Vox Popoli

CONTACT

VOXOLOGY

Voxiversity

CRYPTOFASHION

CASTALIA BOOKLISTS

Topics

Interviews

Interviews of Me

SITES OF INTEREST

Voxonomica

Wednesday, August 27, 2014

Show some sense, people

242 Comments:

Post a Comment

DAY TRIPS

CULTURE WAR RESOURCES

BOOK OF THE MONTH

AUTHORS