Thoughts on a Russo-EU war
The EU is sounding increasingly panicked over Russia's refusal to back down and accept the EU-backed coup in Ukraine as a fait accompli:
EU leaders warned Russia’s invasion of east Ukraine was at a “point of no return”, risking a “state of war” with Europe and instructed officials to prepare new sanctions to hit the Russian economy. A summmit in Brussels on Saturday gave the green light to toughened economic sanctions, targeting Russia’s finances, oligarchs linked to the Russian president and the country’s vast mineral wealth.Some more or less random thoughts on the situation.
Dalia Grybauskaite, Lithuania’s president and a staunch critic of Mr Putin’s Russia, called on the EU to get serious as Russia’s war in the Ukraine menaced peace in Europe for the first time in decades.
“Russia is in a state of war against Ukraine and that is against a country which wants to be part of Europe. Russia is practically in a state of war against Europe,” she said.
Jose Manuel Barroso, the European Commission president, said that the EU was prepared for new sanctions against and pleaded with Mr Putin to step back from the brink of outright war between Russia and the Ukraine....
European leaders will tell Mr Putin that unless he withdraws troops and pulls back from “direct military confrontation between Ukrainian and Russian military forces” that the EU will move to introduce new economic sanctions over the coming weeks. European Union leaders instructed their officials on Saturday to prepare urgently possible new sanctions against Russia over its involvement in Ukraine, according to a draft statement seen by Reuters.
- The "moral high ground" argument puts no pressure on Putin at all. It might sell in the American press, but everyone in Europe knows that the EU is considerably less democratic, more corrupt, and less concerned about its own people than Putin is about his Russian people. The EU, aided by American neocons, intervened in Ukraine first, staging a coup and installing a puppet government. It's a clear-cut case of "the EU cries out in pain as it strikes you". Russia is reacting defensively, not acting aggressively.
- Russia has usually defeated the various European powers in war, both individually and in combination, since the dawn of the Napoleonic era. With the exception of the Crimean War, which only managed to delay Russia's Black Sea ambitions for 15 years, Russia has defeated Turkey, defeated France, fought Germany to a standstill (WWI) and defeated Germany (WW2). The Russians have absolutely no fear of the other European nations.
- Vladimir Putin is very conscious of war being ultimately economic in light of the Soviet defeat in the Cold War. I expect he is extremely conscious of the weak state of the Western economies and what that signifies concerning the USA's ability to support EU efforts against Russia.
- The entire Western economic system is based on credit. The rich and "successful" are, for the most part, nothing but parasites permitted to greatly profit at the expense of the people of everyone else by siphoning off money from the great circulatory river of credit. It's a monetary form of feudalism, only instead of land rights, credit rights are granted. The very public attempt to hit at the Russian oligarchs and their offshore finances is really an appeal to Putin to simply knock it off, play along, and collect his billions like all the other credit lords.
- An appeal to personal corruption is always going to fail with a man of principle. I don't know Putin at all, and I am aware of the circumstances that saw him rise to power, but it increasingly appears that he may be a ruthless man of principle who truly loves the Rodina and despises the very oligarchs and credit lords with whom he was previously allied. Some people learn from their experiences. Some people change their priorities. If Putin is just another corrupt oligarch, he would accept the EU/USA deal, leave the ethnic Russians in Ukraine to their fate, and live the rest of his life in fabulous wealth. Perhaps he is simply holding out for a better offer, but I tend to doubt it.
- Putin is not much worried about the U.S. military. He knows it is going to be fully occupied with the expansionary challenges posed by the Islamic State and China. Obama and whoever succeeds Obama will make noises about supporting the EU, but supporting a crumbling EU's expansionary efforts against a major military power is simply not in the cards. And if the USA tries to aid the EU, Russia can easily return the favor ten-fold by aiding ISIS.
- If the EU doesn't back down and accept the Russian claim to whatever territory it deems appropriate (which, based on Putin's use of the term Novorossiya, appears to be fairly clear), Putin will shock the world by taking the entire Ukraine and doing so in a matter of 2-3 weeks. At this point, the "threat" of being expelled from the global credit system is more of a solution than a problem, especially for a material-rich nation.
Labels: war
162 Comments:
Oh, you English are *so* superior, aren't you? Well, would you like to know what you'd be without us, the good ol' U.S. of A. to protect you? I'll tell you. The smallest fucking province in the Russian Empire, that's what! So don't call me stupid, lady. Just thank me.
Well if Russia is taking a more direct role, it means they see an opening. Putin would just as soon let the separatists lose if it meant over the long term that Russia's power grew. Since he doesn't seem to be he has big expectations.
"It is a sign of how widely hated the EU and the global elite have become that so many Europeans and Americans are more or less on Russia's side in this matter"
Yes.
A bit of nitpicking: Russia didn’t fight Germany to a standstill in First World War. It lost. Germans got everything they wanted in treaty of Brest-Litovsk and didn’t bother with taking the rest. Not enough time and soldiers. You can also say in this war Russians lost their empire and got Soviets which was much worse than any military defeat.
“If Putin is just another corrupt oligarch, he would accept the EU/USA deal, leave the ethnic Russians in Ukraine to their fate, and live the rest of his life in fabulous wealth.”
What if Russian intervention is necessary for Putin and his clique to keep power? There is nothing better to unite your subjects than small successful war. Ruling Russia is much better than any deal UE can offer.
“Putin will shock the world by taking the entire Ukraine and doing so in a matter of 2-3 weeks.”
Hardly shocking knowing the disparity between Russian and Ukrainian forces. However ruling such big and populous conquered territory is another matter. Ukrainians doesn’t like Russians in this moment. In this case Putin could install his own puppet government.
“It is a sign of how widely hated the EU and the global elite have become that so many Europeans and Americans are more or less on Russia's side in this matter.”
Many Europeans were also hoping for Red Army to come, topple capitalists supported by Washington and install communism. I almost wish that it didn’t happen. Red Army visiting Paris would cure much present ills and delusions among intellectuals.
If I were a Baltic president, I'd start looking to exile ethnic Russians resettled by the Soviet Union, and start tooling up the citizenry.
The EU will not, under any circumstances, try to cut off Russia from the international credit markets. The EU gets too much of its gas and oil from Russia. Winter is coming.
Russia didn’t fight Germany to a standstill in First World War. It lost. Germans got everything they wanted in treaty of Brest-Litovsk and didn’t bother with taking the rest.
Russia did until the October Revolution. It's hardly a surprise that a country suddenly divided by a violent civil war that lasted longer than WWI didn't put up the same sort of military resistance that it had previously.
"This early Russian success in 1914 on the Austro-Russian border was a reason for concern to the Central Powers and caused considerable German forces to be transferred to the East to take pressure off the Austrians, leading to the creation of the new German Ninth Army. At the end of 1914, the main focus of the fighting shifted to central part of Russian Poland, west of the river Vistula.[33] The October Battle of the Vistula River and the November Battle of Łódź brought little advancement for the Germans, but at least kept the Russians at a safe distance.... By mid-1915, the Russians had been expelled from Russian Poland and hence pushed hundreds of kilometers away from the borders of the Central Powers, removing the threat of Russian invasion of Germany or Austria-Hungary. At the end of 1915 German-Austrian advance was stopped on the line Riga–Jakobstadt–Dünaburg–Baranovichi–Pinsk–Dubno–Ternopil. The general outline of this front line did not change until the Russian collapse in 1917."
That is, by any measure, fighting the Germans to a standstill. However you wish to phrase it, if you need a civil war and a collapse of the government in order to defeat an enemy, then you don't have the ability to defeat them on your own. And it's obvious that the Bolsheviks signed the treaty in order to focus on the White Russian threat.
The fact that Soviet forces were pushed back after 1917 and they lost a lot of men prior to signing the treaty means little. The same was true of the Napoleonic and WWII invasions, after all.
That's the worst thing the Balts can do...
If the Ukie fascists weren't so ignorant and bloodthirsty then the Ukraine situation would never of happened the way it did. I'm amazed at their stupidity, sure they remove one oligarch, but then replace that one oligarch with a cabal of half a dozen oligarchs, most of which have done handshake agreements to open up Ukrainian assets to foreign looters.
Every EU escalation has appeared insane to me, yet they have kept at it. Even though it's insane, and no one seems to want war, I can't see how they will back down.
Shades of 1914. A European War seems inevitable.
Also:
Calling Ukrainian crisis a Russo-EU war suggest that there are two power blocs ready for war. However European capitals make impressions that they would very much like for Ukraine to go away and don’t bother them. They want to buy Russian gas and oil and slowly slide into decadence in peace and quiet. Reduce their armies to almost nothing and use funds for gender equality and Muslim outreach.
There is one exception to this: Berlin, which is ready to carve spheres of influence on Ukraine and Central Europe using void that America left after it’s almost withdrawal from Europe. And even Germans wan to use economic rather than military means. Considering the state Bundeswehr is in this is the only way for them.
Finland defeated Russia.
on a serious not, sux to be Ukraine, it has a treaty with both Russia and USA yet no protection or help. I'm sure that NATO/EU/USA will turn a blind eye to Russia taking all what putin wants.
a war would be horrible one sided, western equipment is generation's ahead of anything the Russians have m
Thanks for this, VD. I've been saying a variation on this theme for a while, and people generally just look at me like I'd started speaking in tongues. The only comment I'd make is that if Putin takes all of Ukraine, he's liable to give a big chunk of it back, the same way Russian forces overran Georgia in 2008 and then pulled back to South Ossetia and Abkhazia.
As an old cold warrior, this strikes me as absurd: for most of my life, the main foreign policy goal of the United States was to not get into a shooting fight with the USSR. We sat on our hands when the Soviet Union responded very aggressively to popular uprisings within its sphere (Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Poland), but now? Now's a good time to start poking the bear?
Plus, if anything is likely to accelerate dedollarization, this sure looks like it.
@ Shimson
You'd think the fools would learn, wouldn't you?
Vox, one would have to wonder how things would turn out if:
- during WWII the Allies (especially the US) haven't been sending an absolute flood of all sorts of military equipment, vehicles, various supplies
- the country invading Russia (be it Napoleon or the IIIReich) wouldn't fight on multiple fronts in Europe
It's hardly the same situation as now...
Not to mention, it's one thing when you invade Russia - that tends to end badly due to the climate/vastness of the territory, another when Russians are trying to impose their will on Europe... their got their asses kicked multiple times that way.
I tend to agree with you on most issues, but on this one, I believe you might be idealizing Putin's regime and overestimating Russia's power.
You're spot on re the weakness/corruption of the EU though obviously.
Bet Ukraine is missing those nuke missles ... the agreements on Dec 5th, 1994 in Budapest meant nothing. All the former soviet states better learn a lesson here.
deafening silence into the scientific investigation of MH17.
Yes, I'm barracking for Vladimir. That's because i suspect he has an honest deferential affection for the Holy Russian Empire.
Western leadership shits on Christianity at every opportunity. So pox on institutions that serve no earthly good and lead to whole sale rape of women and call that diversity.
[Barracking for Barack would be too confusing for English as a second language readers so for the sake of Cultural clarity support Vladimir ]
No, Finland lost both the Winter and Continuation Wars. Take a look at the territorial changes. In the Winter War the USSR got mauled for a while, but then Finnish ammunition stores ran low, and fresh Soviet troops breached the Finnish defensive lines. This happened both times. The Soviets never achieved their original goal of annexation, but Finland was simply too far outnumbered to stand on its own.
A war would not be one-sided either. It would be nuclear. That's why the desire of NATO powers to keep Ukraine in its 1991 borders is so dangerous.
Not only did the Russians destroy Napoleon's Grande Armee, they pursued Napoleon all the way to France, in fact providing most of the troops that were under Prussian command. During the "100 Days," a combined Austrian and Russian force made their own advance towards Napoleon.
During WW2, the Red Army pushed German forces into Germany and cleared most of the Balkans.
Russia has its own military tradition, and while they aren't perfect at war, dismissing them is foolish.
I really wish this could have waited another 10 years. The US government might do something very stupid and get the whole world nuked due to it's perceived strength. In 10 years time the decline would be very evident and I doubt we would have even stirred up the Ukraine at all.
I tend to agree with you on most issues, but on this one, I believe you might be idealizing Putin's regime and overestimating Russia's power.
You're wrong. And you're ignoring what I already pointed out, which is that China and ISIS will make it impossible for the EU-USA alliance to bring the full force of its weight to bear on Russia. Do you really think it is an accident that Putin is acting now, when ISIS is taking over Iraq and China is rumbling in the South Pacific?
I am not a binary thinker. I don't think that because the EU is pure evil, Putin is a good guy. But he's a damned sight better than either the EU or the would-be global governors.
@Vox
Umm... while I don't deny COMPLICITY, (which I suppose applies to the phrase EU backed coup) the actual funding at a practical level was mostly US based, as the revelations of the inimitable Ms. Neuland on the phone clearly indicated, as well as the US $ 5 billion pumped into Ukraine by effectively the US government once you backtrack the origins of the cash. So I would say it was a US funded and incited coup, with backing by some EU lapdogs of the US, using full on Nazis (not even neo-nazis in this case as the "new" VP of Ukraine shortly after the "government" was formed was fond of quoting speeches of Goebbles at party rallies. Not to mention the Hail Hitler salutes etc.)
Adendum: I agree with the rest of your overall view in general terms though. I just think, based on my knowledge of events (which may be imperfect of course) that the primary spearhead for the coup in Ukraine originated in the US not the EU.
The EU's military is a joke at this point, with only the UK having any battle experience. And Cameron is not going to get a declaration of war out of Parliament.
I just think, based on my knowledge of events (which may be imperfect of course) that the primary spearhead for the coup in Ukraine originated in the US not the EU.
Could be. I don't know if the USA pushed for it first or if they primarily provided the resources. Either way, Ukraine wasn't joining the EU without significant EU complicity. I'm aware of the Neuland tapes, but I didn't want to focus on the historical aspects, I want to focus on what's likely to happen going forward.
...Putin will shock the world by taking the entire Ukraine and doing so in a matter of 2-3 weeks. At this point, the "threat" of being expelled from the global credit system is more of a solution than a problem, especially for a material-rich nation.
He seems content to take the areas dominated by ethnic Russians. Maybe Putin will take the all of Ukraine, then agree to exit/pullback as long as there is a fair election on independence with UN observers. Then the east can vote to join Russia.
Leaving the global financial system is Russia's long-term goal. The Chinese are unwilling to leave early, they want to wait until they know the U.S. will be beyond saving. Were the U.S. to suddenly wake up and move to a "war" footing on economic matters, it could set China back several decades, if not permanently. Far better to let nature take its course. I suspect China would probably aid Russia, but refuse to help them in the way Russia would like. China likes Russia weak too.
"But he's a damned sight better than either the EU or the would-be global governors"
Its all a matter of location and distance... right now Putin is a theoretic subject that can be safely studied from a distance.. were his intentions to move closer to you current location you might find him less charming.... and if you think things are bad now in Italy with all the eastern european hookers .. wait until there is a real shooting war going on a mere 500 miles way. I would make sure i had an exit plan back to the good ol USA.
@VD
"Could be. I don't know if the USA pushed for it first or if they primarily provided the resources. Either way, Ukraine wasn't joining the EU without significant EU complicity. I'm aware of the Neuland tapes, but I didn't want to focus on the historical aspects, I want to focus on what's likely to happen going forward."
I agree that looking ahead is what's important, but on general principle, having a better understanding of what/why something started usually gives a better possibility of being correct in predicting the outcome. For clarity, I am not criticising your conclusions, only want to add some accuracy to the initial database.
Here is a simple link to the US $ 5 billion that is kind of incontrovertible regardless of source as it's Neuland herself saying they gave US $ 5 billion to help "democracy".
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37599.htm
But I have come across blogs that described the links between the "NGOs" that received the money, the people who ran them and even the "I am a Ukrainian" video with the girl in it and who produced it. (Too busy/lazy to find them right now, but if you are genuinely interested let me know and I will dig them up.)
Not to mention Hunter Biden, the son of the US Vice President who just coincidentally is now on the board of Gazprom. All I am saying is that the banksters elite responsible for the coup, seem to be US based or at least control things from US based finances. Which is not to say that the EU banksters elite are any less involved, maybe they are just a bit less obvious.
wait until there is a real shooting war going on a mere 500 miles way. I would make sure i had an exit plan back to the good ol USA.
No thanks. I expect the USA to have its own real shooting war soon enough. No one is going to be able to run anywhere this time.
Russia has neither continental ambitions nor the capacity to pursue them. My only personal concern is the effect on the heating bill.
clk said: All the former soviet states better learn a lesson here.
Hunsdon said: Small powers walk quietly around large powers?
Giuseppe said: Not to mention Hunter Biden, the son of the US Vice President who just coincidentally is now on the board of Gazprom.
Hunter said: Don't you mean Burisma holdings? (Gazprom being the Russian gas company, Burisma a Ukrainian.)
If I had to sum Putin up short and succinct, with the Russians people love for him, his no BS rhetoric, his belief in traditional Christian values and the way he carries himself. He could be best described as the Ronald Reagan of Russia. Those don't come along very often and when they do make a path.
My view is that Evil Dobby the House Elf is making hay while the sun shines. I can't blame him.
The EU never had traditional political authority and it's moral political authority is self awarded. As for it's military capability, no real command and control structure independent of NATO and NATO's Achilles heel is self evident which brings us to...
...Barrack Obama. A man uniquely unsuited for his job when he got it:
Is this man hewn from Olympus,
Sent by Zeus to save our souls?
Or a plastic dashboard Jesus
In a car he can't control?
Will this Adonis save the planet?
Or is he fleecing golden sheep?
Ask another Muse tomorrow,
Hell if I know, it's all Greek to me.
Burma Shave
The man has become frighteningly discontented from his job. He clearly regrets winning the last election and is desperate to begin his Carter Center years.
Part of the job of any Democrat in the White House is to try and build a Happy Place for his liberal progressive supporters to live in, one removed from the harsh day to day troubles of reality.
Obama having built this retreat for his supporters has decided to move in to it himself.
As of this writing, Putin has exactly 872 days and seventeen hours before he faces any kind of real American opposition.
As I said he will make hay while the sun shines. The Crimea is basically over but for the crying. So what's next?
There is genuine persecution of the Russian minority population in Vilnius but there is now enough of a NATO tripwire force in place that Lithuania may be a bridge too far.
However Kazakhstan is not NATO and Putin has recently started describing it in much the same way as he did Ukraine. Using old Russian terminology and saying it's not really a country.
Look for Borat to be making tearful pleas on behalf of his Glorious Nation sometime before Friday, January 20, 2017.
No thanks. I expect the USA to have its own real shooting war soon enough. No one is going to be able to run anywhere this time.
Russia has neither continental ambitions nor the capacity to pursue them. My only personal concern is the effect on the heating bill."
No doubts there but it will be an entirely different type of action in the US... internal ....there will be large areas of the country free from action and relativily free.. just stay away from the cities and the coasts.
Heating bills never go down .. if you have gas heat ... better buy some sweaters and gloves because it wont just be an increase in price.. there simply will not be any gas. ....
and while you are at it... time to diversify the porfoilo from heavy on gold to add some other elements like lead, brass and copper.
No, Russia did not fight Germany to a standstill before 1917. The Germans kicked the hell out of the Russians in 1914 and 1915. Then, having eliminated the Russian threat to Germany and Austria, the Germans made their main effort in the West in 1916. When the Germans took the offensive again in the East in 1917, they kicked the hell out of the Russians once again.
In short, the Eastern Front was static in 1916 because the Germans wanted to attack elsewhere, not because the Russians fought them to a standstill.
From the article
“Europe has to act. It already has. But in the face of this escalation in tension, there are new decisions to be taken,” he said.
And
The Prime Minister (Cameron) has pledged to use the City of London’s dominance in financial services to cut Russia’s economy off from cash, according to diplomatic sources and has privately pushed for the Russians to lose the right to hold the 2018 World Cup.
(Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhh!!!!!!!!)
I don't think I will head to the bomb shelter just yet.
Obama, and all the European leaders need to remember one thing. The Russian people figure they bled and died for a Black Sea port (does no one remember the Crimean War and the Charge of the Light Brigade?) and are willing to bleed and die to keep it. Because unless the people of Europe are also willing to bleed and die to take it away from Russia, they need to back the hell off.
Just because a native Ukrainian put Crimea into the Ukraine administrative district back when no one foresaw the breakup of the Soviet empire, does not mean ethnic Russian's ever stopped thinking of it as Russian territory.
Those who do not study history are condemned to repeat it. And Western leaders are forgetting that so called soft power crumbles when a country is able and willing to use military power.
That said, while I suspect Russia's depleted military power is still enough for Ukraine, I really doubt they will be able to do more than that. They just don't have enough juice to take Europe anymore.
It's a monetary form of feudalism, only instead of land rights, credit rights are granted.
Absolutely. But as credit crunches they'll be looking at tangible assets again.
Get ready, serfs.
I believe that if Putin ever so delicately delivered fusion experiences on Lvov, Kiev, Brussels, Berlin, Munich, the Euros would piss their pants, and Englishmen would cheer.
Likewise, imagine all the leechers and moochers hunting for their government checks if the state of the union was similarly interrupted.
Whoa...right on cue zerohedge exposes the central bank incentive program to buy tangible assets.
They just don't have enough juice to take Europe anymore.
I don't see any indication that they wish to do so.
That Putin has not already invaded 'The Ukraine', shows a surprising amount of restraint. Though there are rumors coming from over there that the Ukrainian Army (Kiev) is on the verge of collapse.
Also it appears that Poroshenko's position seems increasingly tenuous. Yulia Timoshenko covets rulership of 'The Ukraine' and will do anything to get it.
I don't think Putin will back ISIS. He has his own jihadi problem, and ISIS' military chief is Chechen. If he were inclined to meddle in the ME, I think its more likely he would increase support for strongmen like Assad or Sisi. Also, he could take Turkey out of play by supporting the Kurds.
Diane Feinstein (I know, I know) just stated on NBC said sanctions won't work against Russia and the Secretary of State should go talk to him personally and make nice. Maybe bake him a nice potato kugel.
It is similar in a way to how the media treats bad think. The worst weapon they have is "We won't play with you now". If the other party doesn't care or views that as a benefit (Russia's long term goal is to be a net exporter of all goods, not just oil), that stops working.
The rabbits in control of the West just tried to bluff a bear. Which doesn't work well.
"Russia has usually defeated the various European powers in war, both individually and in combination, since the dawn of the Napoleonic era"
Don't forget the ill-fated attempt by Charles XII of Sweden (which was then a major European power) to invade Russia in the early 18th century.
And ketchup. Lots of ketchup.
No thanks. I expect the USA to have its own real shooting war soon enough. No one is going to be able to run anywhere this time.
True dat. But I tend to think the NWO folks, Kissinger, banksters, et al, want to collapse the system and kill off a few billion. And if not for that reason, how about using global war as a convenient means of writing off trillions of rehypothecated debt. History has shown the elite to be a very blood thirsty bunch.
"Russia has neither continental ambitions nor the capacity to pursue them. My only personal concern is the effect on the heating bill."
And it is not even cold yet. I fully expect him to shut off the gas to Europe and than tell them all to shut the fuck up!
then not than
you'll note that Obama's last statement on this matter was that the US had no intention of deploying any military assets in this direction, that it 'will be taken care of' via econ sanctions.
why ... it's almost as though ... my assertion that Obama appears to be a Soviet agent could be panning out.
Bies Podkrakowski August 31, 2014 5:34 AM
Many Europeans were also hoping for Red Army to come, topple capitalists
point of order.
those aren't "capitalists". they're rent-seekers and oligarchs.
Giuseppe August 31, 2014 7:25 AM
Not to mention Hunter Biden, the son of the US Vice President who just coincidentally is now on the board of Gazprom.
point of order.
Gazprom is the Russian natgas company. Biden is on the board of the Uke company, Burisma . otherwise agree.
Porky said: "Absolutely. But as credit crunches they'll be looking at tangible assets again.
Get ready, serfs."
In NC, they're gearing up for a major land grab in the coming years.
NC landowners that have their farmland designated for "agricultural use" get a property tax deferment that makes the property tax burden on farmers more bearable than if the land was taxed at the same rate as residential property. There are a number of requirements for a piece of land to get the agricultural designation, including showing a gross profit from farm purposes.
Through 2013 the gross profit required to be shown was nominal at $3,000 gross profit every 3 years per farm. Starting in 2014 farmers must show a 3-year gross profit of $30,000 on all farms to remain eligible for the agricultural tax deferment. i
If i was unable to show that $30,000 gross profit on my 90-acre tract of land then my annual tax bill could balloon my close to 20x what it is now. Given the current state of the economy, i expect that there will be many NC small farm owners that cede their family farms over to the credit hucksters and the state of NC itself during the coming decade.
True dat. But I tend to think the NWO folks, Kissinger, banksters, et al, want to collapse the system and kill off a few billion.
Why would the banksters want to do this? Then there would be less credit serfs.
I mean I can see loopy people like Prince Charles and Paul McCartney wanting to kill off a few billion non vegetarians, but the banksters?
i expect that there will be many NC small farm owners that cede their family farms over to the credit hucksters and the state of NC itself during the coming decade.
Which will likely make their tax take go down and their welfare costs go up.
Why would the banksters want to do this? Then there would be less credit serfs.
Because the banksters are the water carriers, not the masters. The anglo-american oligarchs, you can call them by all their various names, have some stated goals, and depopulation is a significant plank in their body of work.
VD, you forgot the Russo-Japanese War. There the Russians lost.
Ethnic Russians are 20% of Ukraine's population so Russia gets Ukraine? So they get it and later some time in the future, the Russia federation splits off again and again. I suppose Russia gets Poland too? The problem with Russia getting Ukraine is they don't have the right to it. So they take it and that solves it. The US can't do much about it since they may have bungled it from the start. Putting it back to where it must might just mean solving the ISIS problem first, but we will never get to that point with Mr. Golfing President around and then it will be too late.
OT, but:
Police fired 24 rounds at unarmed 18 year old, apparently to prevent him from committing suicide. Media ignores story because he is white.
Mission accomplished!
Ethnic Russians are 20% of Ukraine's population so Russia gets Ukraine?
Well, they seem to be mainly interested in the portion that is majority Ethnic Russians.
"VD, you forgot the Russo-Japanese War. There the Russians lost."
What strange geography do you employ to conclude that Japan is a european country?
Poland defeated the Russians in the 1919-1921 war. Not a perfect victory--the Poles left their Ukrainian allies to the tender mercies of the Bolsheviks--but the Russians suffered a battlefield defeat, sued for peace, and offered territorial concessions.
That said, your point on Russia's martial abilities is pretty accurate. Putin probably doesn't lose much sleep worrying about European armies.
VD, you forgot the Russo-Japanese War. There the Russians lost.
I did nothing of the kind. Read what I wrote again.
Poland defeated the Russians in the 1919-1921 war.
Interesting, but again, I'm not taking Russian military performance during a six-year civil war into account. If half of Russia rises against Putin and puts Western-funded armies into the field in an active civil war, then it may be relevant. Otherwise, not so much.
If half of Russia rises against Putin
Given his current popularity, it would be quite a bit less than half.
Much to agree with in the OP.
For my own part, I think Europe does not have the military might to deny Putin anything in Ukraine. Heck, the Euros couldn't deploy to the _Balkans_ without American airlift and our armored division in Europe literally paving the way from Germany to Bosnia by building the logistics infrastructure.
WRT WWI, the Russian defeat was held in abeyance due to Germany having bigger fish to fry in the West. Without the Western Front, Russia doesn't hold the line, but gets crushed.
In WWII, Russia would have lost rather early without the _massive_ material aid from America. Denying Russia just one of those items, *cargo trucks*, would have doomed the population and the armies to starvation. Also, it would have made the movement of Russian armies and their supplies to the line of battle nearly impossible. Russia would have lost relatively early and very likely would have been pushed to the Ural mountain range, where the breadth of the front and the mountain obstacles would have made further advance by the Germans more costly than it was worth. This assumes the Soviet gov't remains intact. Russians would have lost access to the Black Sea and maybe even the Caspian Sea.
Here a bit from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease#US_deliveries_to_the_USSR
(comports with what I read in the past frm other sources)
"In total, the US deliveries through Lend-Lease amounted to $11 billion in materials: over 400,000 jeeps and trucks; 12,000 armored vehicles (including 7,000 tanks, about 1,386[26] of which were M3 Lees and 4,102 M4 Shermans);[27] 11,400 aircraft (4,719 of which were Bell P-39 Airacobras)[28] and 1.75 million tons of food.[29]
Roughly 17.5 million tons of military equipment, vehicles, industrial supplies, and food were shipped from the Western Hemisphere to the USSR, 94% coming from the US. For comparison, a total of 22 million tons landed in Europe to supply American forces from January 1942 to May 1945. It has been estimated that American deliveries to the USSR through the Persian Corridor alone were sufficient, by US Army standards, to maintain sixty combat divisions in the line"
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Russland_topo.png
Yep, Russia would have been crushed or sought a separate peace.
I would add that Putin knows that the EU politicians and bureaucrats are a bunch of pussies and that it is all bluster. I don't like Putin either. But I like the idea of him putting the EU in their place.
BTW, blogger "Al Fin" has a lot to say about Putin's Russia.
The idea Russia fought Germany to a stand still in World War I is very dubious. Outside of that, the point stands. No European country singly or in groups is in a position to take on Russia even discounting atomic weapons.
Europe is being reminded that might still matters, and they don't have any might.
I still can't get into the whole Putin good/the Ukraine who don't like him bad thing. Not my fight, but I don't buy the idea that one side is evil and the other side is good. I know some Ukrainians and they have legitimate beefs with Russia.
EU leaders warned Russia’s invasion of east Ukraine was at a “point of no return”, risking a “state of war” with Europe and instructed officials to prepare new sanctions to hit the Russian economy. A summmit in Brussels on Saturday gave the green light to toughened economic sanctions, targeting Russia’s finances, oligarchs linked to the Russian president and the country’s vast mineral wealth.
...Putin was reported to respond with "winter is coming" and to smirk ominously.
No thanks. I expect the USA to have its own real shooting war soon enough. No one is going to be able to run anywhere this time.
The Southern hemisphere is usually ignored in these situations.
"Well, they seem to be mainly interested in the portion that is majority Ethnic Russians."
Plus Crimea.
"...Putin was reported to respond with "winter is coming" and to smirk ominously."
It is indeed.
Any chance of Boris showing up and admitting he was wrong?
Ape Man, Yes the Ukrainians have legitimate beefs with Russia. Deep and pronounced historical beefs. Conquest's Harvest of Sorrow. Got it.
At the same time, Russia is the remnant of a great empire and the people of Ukraine are closer in technology, wealth and morality to Russia than they are to the EU. Further, the idea of Ukraine joining NATO is poking a stick in Putin's eye (let's overuse this metaphor).
The EU is a postmodernist empire supported by western ideas of socialism. For some reason they thought they could assimilate Ukraine in Borg-like fashion (because they need more poor and insolvent economies as partners?!?) and that this would be good.
Well post modern philosophy has no ability to stand against realpolitik. Never had it, never will. The EU is constantly cutting their military capability to refinance their social welfare programs and bail out the southern european states. At the same time they threatened the biggest guy on the block and assumed they could get away with it, despite the fact that their powerhouse, the US military doesn't have a full division anywhere near the playing field.
While I am opposed to US intervention in the Ukraine, I am a retired officer and have always felt that the stabilityof the European balance of power, required a balance of power. Today their is a total imbalance. The EU nations have not maintained sufficient power to deter Russia. Now they are learning that you should not provoke someone if you can't deter them. Of course my preference is that they maintain their own deterent forces and refrain from provoking. Best of both worlds, right?
The EU and NATO seem likely to be preparing to take action (diplomatic and economic) that is only going to make the situation worse and hurt US global interests in the long run. Throwing Russia out of SWIFT (international banking system) for example is utterly idiotic, it can only hurt EU and US monetary dominance in the long run. It will force Russia, BRICs and others to establish new banking relationships to avoid western hegemony. WIthout the US dollar or euro as a reserve currency and required for daily global trade, what will prop it up? (not that a dollar is worth much today).
This is what you get when you let liberal, socialist dreamers run your countries and your economies. It is sad, pathetic, and tiresome since most of the gifted authors and fans of blue science fiction have a better handle on how this will play out than the twits in command.
MH17 fell of the radar as classified so as not to embarrass the Kiev fascists. We've seen the booboisie twins Psaki & Harf try to use old outdated Digital Globe Satellite photos to "prove" Putin done it. And here again, they provide more "proof" by way of satellite photos that Putin has invaded Ukraine... again. So Ukraine uses Russian military hardware. The rebels capture Ukraine military hardware that are of Russian design. But we were literally told by NATO that it couldn't possibly be ex-Ukraine Russian hardware in the hands of the rebels, because the rebels are amateurs and don't know how to use it... so it MUST be the Russians. Now we are hearing that Russia has literally turned a E. Ukraine town into rubble by incessant artillery shelling... when the facts are, it is the Ukraine army that has been shelling indiscriminately cities and towns of the E. Ukraine. Funny how Kiev is always trying to blame Russia for what it is doing so as to make it appear that Russia is outdoing Kiev.
And America trying to establish a Russian Spring on the heels of that foul Pussy Riot band. That should have told the world everything it needed to know about America. The word is that St. Petersburg will, in the near future, be ground zero for another State Dept./NGO induced Russian Spring.
Just the short list. Hitler was right. It is a good thing that the people don't think, but run on easily manipulated emotions. There was a massive USNATO twitter propaganda ploy using select hashtags going the past 4-5 days on Russia invading Ukraine and the NATO had to militarily intervene now... or Europe would be in the hands of Russia.
Samantha Powers twitters: If Russian soldier on his leave is caught in Ukraine, he is still Russian soldier... so Russia invaded Ukraine.
The fact is, and I can't find my list right at this moment, there are 8 distinct volunteers with a heavy presence fighting along side the rebels, and they are all from East and West Europe. They want you to believe that the rebels couldn't possibly kick Kiev's ass because the rebels are amateurs, so it MUST be, has to be, the Russian army. Many of the people are disillusioned by Maidan, and many of the most outspoken ones are being picked up by the Ukraine security forces.
Anyhow, it is all really transparent if one was to just take a non-emotional venture into what is happening.
Russia doesn't need to invade Europe. They'll just shut off the gas.
- Gazprom
The USSR beat the Axis in WWII and it wasn't even close. Over 3/4 of total axis forces were deployed to the eastern front. Every km of distance that the Axis pushed deeper into Russia would have been that much more of a strain on their supply lines. The difference made by lend lease was enough to slow the advance while the Red Army picked up steam.
Even Napoleon took Moscow and Russians still came back and chased him out - without lend lease trucks or planes.
Finally, Napoleon and Hitler enjoyed much more domestic support than the leaders of the EU, UK and USA and still lost. Putin has enormous popularity and Russians are not fearful of a fight against western interference.
Plus Crimea.
I see you made my point for me. Either that or you are incredibly stupid.
"I see you made my point for me. Either that or you are incredibly stupid."
Ass . Sorry, I thought you were disagreeing with me, idiot. You had a point? Yes, you're an ass
I don't see how anyone with normal morality can support the EU over Putin.
And yea, The EU has no chance militarily of stopping Russia. Best thing to happen is if Russia scares the EU into actually producing men rather than males.
Had a strange dream last night. In it, the ebola outbreak in Africa was a live fire test of weaponized ebola. The returned US health workers that were cured by the new ebola drugs were a test of same. When the time comes there will not be near enough of the 'cure' for everyone. Then, forced injections of 'something' for most citizens. That something is probably not anything good. The flood of illegals across the southern border was designed to allow such as isis in to run rampant and/or provide plausible deniable structure to a false flag operation. Obama will not be in office for much longer. Biden will call marshal law and cancel the 2014 mid-terms and, then, the fema camp buses will roll. There will be no more elections for some time. The government has been buying up almost all the ammo for some time now and may feel they can now outlast patriot rebellion. Isis will hit targets in the southwest and cause major death and destruction in sin city [Las Vegas] That will be interesting; those boomers sitting at the slots refusing to leave as the gunmen rampage through the rooms. There may or may not be a suitcase nuke employed. There may or may not be an emp or two used.
Well, it was only a dream, Right? I knew I should not have had that adult beverage before bed.
@ Grinder
I grew up in a USN/USMC family, so it was a long time before I realized the key phrase to describe WW2 was not "Island hopping." The more I read, the more I came to the conclusion that two things won WW2: American manufacturing capacity, and Russian blood. In the thirty years since I came to that conclusion, I've read nothing to change my mind.
@ jimmy-jimbo
Crimea, huh? Either you're focusing on the minority Tatar population, or you're ignoring the whole "sole warm water port" thing, or you're an ass. PS: Getting called an ass here is not an unusual experience.
@ Mr. Stubby
MH17? What is that, the Memorial High graduating class of '17? I don't know what you're talking about. MH17, hmm. Nope. Not ringing any bells.
Aphelion,
I get that Russia has reasons for wanting to maintain a hold over Ukraine. Its a pity they could not work out a deal like Finland did during the cold war era. But Ukraine's biggest problem is that it is so internally messed up that it is in no real position to deal with either Russia or the EU in profitable ways.
I think that best solution for the people of what now constitutes Ukraine would be to give the Western part to Poland and the Eastern part to Russian. I don't think the Western part is really viable on its own. That is why they are fighting so hard to hold on to the eastern part.
Bet Ukraine is missing those nuke missles ...
Ukraine only had nukes because they inherited them from the USSR. If the United States had broken up in 1991, my state of Missouri would suddenly have been a nuclear power with about 400 Minuteman IIIs.
Ukraine could not, and can not, afford to support and store such weapons. Look at the shape of their economy over the past few years. They are almost broke. It takes money to keep up nuclear weapons. Ukraine would have gotten rid of them anyway. Everyone knew it and wanted them to give them up, the USA included.
Hunsdon,
Don't forget Chinese blood. It was a revelation to me how many troops the Japaneses lost fighting the Chinese and how much it was bleeding them dry. When I was younger I though the Japaneses just walked all over the Chinese but that was not the case. The major battles that Japan fought in terms of militarily casualties were fought in China.
The major battles that Japan fought in terms of militarily casualties were fought in China.
And it wasn't just the Chinese that inflicted casualties on the Japanese in China. During August Storm the Soviets attacked the Japanese in China. Almost 800K Japanese soldiers were killed or wounded.
As the Japanese forces' casualties were ten times those of the Soviet forces', the Soviet invasion and the defeat of Japan's military forces stationed in the region were regarded as Japan's worst land defeat in its military history.
@grinder and hunsdon - agreed
Yes the US provided much needed material aid, but not many on our side give credit to the enormous manufacturing output of Soviet factories. Under harsh conditions, to say the least, they churned out tens of thousands of T-34 tanks and about 35K IL-2 Sturmoviks both of which contributed mightily to their victory. I still can't imagine how the heck they manufactured so much with the western half of their nation occupied or destroyed.
Additionally we seem pretty oblivious to their human casualties. As a comparison the USA has lost no more than 2 million dead in all of our wars from 1776 to the present (238 years), including both sides of the Civil War. From 1941 to 1945, the USSR lost around 25 million people.
Look, I don't know if Putin is just another corrupt puppet of the oligarchs, like Obama is.
But from the viewpoint of an outside observer, one major difference between Putin and President Pajama-Boy is: Putin appears to genuinely have the concerns of the Russian people in mind. The same cannot be said of Obama (re: the American people of course).
1) Nobody west of Poland and Hungary actually cares about Ukraine or Ukrainians.Any statements by western Europeans are either cries of fear or attempts to manipulate Russia into keeping the gravy train rolling.
2) The Baltics are scared shitless. Since they're now NATO members, along with Albania and Bosnia, we have to listen to their shrieking. We allowed them in mostly to tweak the Russians, not because we fully intend to defend them.
3) NATO is a multi-lateral defense pact in which the US agreed to defend Europe in return for them agreeing not to maintain any armies that could be used to invade one another. In other words, the purpose of NATO is prevent Germany and France from building up their armies to defend themselves from Russia, and then using the armies to once again resolve the ownership of Alsace. Eventually, the US will abandon NATO, because most Americans don't really care.
4) Seems the Underpants gnomes are writing the sanctions rules:
a)"We're going to cut them off from international credit markets and access to cash.
b) Russia's going to send us their gas because........
c) ???????
d) PROFIT!
5) Crimea belongs to Ukraine because the Russians kicked out the Crimean Tartars in the 1940s and some of the people who moved in were Ukrainian. Duh, I mean, obviously.
6) Putin's biggest motivation seems to be what is best for Russians, not what's best for Putin. For instance, I don't think he's a Christian, but he thinks a strong Christianity is best for Russians, so he supports the Church. He could just plunder the country, as so many have before, but instead he prosecuted the oligarchs that were doing the looting. In other words, Putin's a patriot.
I would agree with the poster above who called him Russia's Reagan. Would to God we had some tike him running this country.
The Baltics are scared shitless. Since they're now NATO members, along with Albania and Bosnia, we have to listen to their shrieking. We allowed them in mostly to tweak the Russians, not because we fully intend to defend them.
The Baltics are probably the only Euros to have an actual reason to be concerned. Russia doesn't have the demographics, economic might or military to take anything but Russian speaking areas that welcome them, such as Crimea and possibly east Ukraine. Thanks to demographic politics played out by the USSR, up to 25 percent of the Baltic states' population are ethnic Russians. I doubt the Russians would move in since the Baltics are in NATO, and the ethnic Russians there appear to be content. But it should be a concern to the Balts.
"However you wish to phrase it, if you need a civil war and a collapse of the government in order to defeat an enemy, then you don't have the ability to defeat them on your own. "
I disagree. If you have bled the enemy so much that its government collapses (February Revolution), then you are winning. If you continue to bleed him so much that its government collapses AGAIN and then gives you everything you want, then you've won.
For goodness's sake, VD. Please, do one damnedly simple thing - watch the Yuri Bezmenov's (a Russian high-profile spy who defected to the West during the Cold War era) lectures on YT. Then come again and tell US your pro-Russian perspective havn't changed even a smallest bit.
You really think those Asian bolshevik barbarians are better than EU? It's all scam. And you, the western right, are precisely its target.
As Bezmenov tells us since the Mongol conquest we've been dealing here with people who treat Sun Tzu's "Art of War"as the Bible. And remember what's the gist of it? "All warfare is based on deception".
How ironic to see the genuine western right to root for Putin, if you accept the Bezmenov's premise that pretty much ALL of today's western civilization's ills are a direct consequence of the Soviet ideological subversion done as the bigger part of their Cold War effort.
This is a true evil empire. An epitome of a rogue state. They've been patient. And now is the time to reap what was sowed. So better wake up.
I disagree. If you have bled the enemy so much that its government collapses (February Revolution), then you are winning. If you continue to bleed him so much that its government collapses AGAIN and then gives you everything you want, then you've won.
What are you referring to? As is perhaps to be expected, the Wikipedia page on the February Revolution seems to blame it all on those evil Romanovs and their failure to enact social reforms over a couple of hundred years.
I don't know much about the region, but it does seem sort of a mystery to me why Ukraine is such an economic basket case. They have a large country, fertile land, resources, a deep and solid culture. Most Ukrainians I've met have seemed reasonably intelligent, I doubt it's a backwards country regarding IQ. I don't know how they could be in such bad shape, communist legacy or not. Ireland was once the poorest country in Europe and suffered centuries of the most brutal oppression, but after only a few decades of home rule they've bounced back tolerably well. Maybe not an economic powerhouse, but a decent First World standard of living (well, at least until the vibrants outbreed them). Why can't Ukraine manage at least that level?
""All warfare is based on deception"."
That's true for all sides involved, not just the Evil Boogey Man de Jour....
@hungrytales
Sure, the KGB did all it could to plant the seeds of political dissent in the US. But those seeds could not have grown had they not fallen on fertile ground.
They didn't only do that in the US, of course.
@ A Kind of Alaska
First, Northern Ireland, where you have entrenched and bitter ethnic diversity, is still pretty much a basket case. Since they stopped killing each other it's getting better, but still. Also, after independence, Ireland was pretty much left alone. There was nothing much left to steal.
Neither the US, Russia nor Europe have any intention of allowing genuine self-determination in Ukraine. One of us must have a puppet in place. It's a fairly productive place, with lots to steal. Unlike Ireland, the ethnic diversity is not quarantined to a specific and legally separate province. It's generalized and fluid, capable of expanding.
And finally, Ukraine's only been independent for a few years. Eire gained it's independence gradually over about 20 years at the turn of the 20th century. They've had almost a century to work it out.
This is a true evil empire.
Obviously hungrytales, you've been living in a cave these past 14 years to not notice the US blatant in your face immorality and its insatiable march towards immoral global NWO. Yea democracy! Yea Pussy Riot!
I'm not for any side... but then, I live in the reality of what is, today.
How ironic to see the genuine western right to root for Putin, if you accept the Bezmenov's premise that pretty much ALL of today's western civilization's ills are a direct consequence of the Soviet ideological subversion done as the bigger part of their Cold War effort.
This is a true evil empire. An epitome of a rogue state. They've been patient. And now is the time to reap what was sowed. So better wake up.
Soviet is not synonymous with Russian. The evil empire died in 1991. I don't know how you can conflate Russia of today with the Soviet Union.
There is no doubt Soviet ideological subversion was directed against the West. That is why Senator McCarthy and the related body in the House held their hearings. Although many so-called conservatives today reject McCarthy. Are you one of them?. I am sure there was a link between the Soviets and the Frankfurt School ideologues too. Do you attribute any of our cultural rot to the Frankfurt School?
As for western conservatives rooting for Putin, didn't you read the post the other day about the 1400 white, English girls who were held as literal sex slaves for the Pakistani immigrants in Rotherham? Did Putin cause this to happen, or was it self inflicted? Why would a western conservative want to fight a fellow Christian nation when his own leadership is bringing in third worlders to gang rape western girls?
Even if Putin did try to take over European territory, could it be any worse than importing third world rapists?
Though I speak for myself, I am sure most other conservatives will join me in saying this. If you want us to fight Russia and remove Putin, fine we will on one condition. End third world immigration to the West now, and repatriate all third worlders and their offspring. Once this is done, we will gladly join you in conquering the world, establish English as the world language, and mandating gay marriage in every land.
"...Putin was reported to respond with "winter is coming""
Very astute, and it is coming, and mainly for the west. Everyone knows it... but only Putin seems to have the foresight to use it in his Grand Strategic Planning. Western elites seem to believe that if they don't mention it, it will always be sunny and warm.
Most thought on grand strategy analysis in Europe, and lately the US, misses the point by a mile. First off Obama, a master at being misjudged, was misjudged severely when he gave his "no strategy" speech last week. The question on what we were going to do about Russia, and the question came from a reporter who has been known to work with the Obama cult, in affect told Putin and all the players in the Muslim world that the US will not interfere and they should carry the fuck on with what they are doing. The very next day Russia sent in at least one Motor Rifle Regt into Ukraine. There's this racist notion out there (and it affects both right and left) is that Obama doesn't understand what he's doing. To me he's one very bright man who knows exactly what he's doing and understands that his enemies and friends all misjudge him. He's not so stupid as to "accidentally" tell Putin and ISIL that they can do what they want without fear of US intervention. Barack Akbar's objective has always been the destruction of the United States. If you keep that goal in mind then things make much more sense.
Just a brief word about China. Their goal, and I saw it written in as recently as 2003 in a PLA strategic planning brief, is to annex much of Siberia. It's the only real answer to their long term energy needs. At the time it seemed ludicrous to me but over the last ten years Chinese energy needs have doubled. They may know more about their own country than I do. I'm assuming that Vlad, a very astute gentleman, is also aware of long term Chinese needs. He's got to go somewhat slowly to bring back Russia and that means securing his Western border. For all the treaties Russia has made recently with China it's not unknown for Russia to do these things politically with the intention of buying time. If only the US was so wise.
Very astute, and it is coming, and mainly for the west.
No, I mean literally. It is autumn. Talking tough now is all fun and games for the EU. But it will be a cold winter without gas. Russia only needs to string us along for a couple of months. Perhaps even wave some concessions before us, like keys before a baby.
And then shut down the pipelines.
Understand, but I'm also sure that economic winter is coming... which will make real winter all that much worse.
The Ukrainians are finally getting their weapon stores unlocked and distributed. The Russophiles have kept this from happening, so the Ukrainian battalions have been fighting (and winning) with little.
http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/08/31/avakov-fighting-bureaucracy/
Also, it looks like NATO is going to begin supplying Ukraine, at least under the table.
11B: Soviet is not synonymous with Russian. The evil empire died in 1991. I don't know how you can conflate Russia of today with the Soviet Union.
Golitzyn et al. say not so. That the Soviet was merely restructured until it could rebuild. It has, and is now on the march.
Remember Our Lady of Fatima's warnings. We must pray for the conversion of Russia.
Sure. And it's not looking good for us. Russia has raised the flag of Christ and Christianity, and flocked under it. We have raised the flag of Satan, and flocked under it.
The character of the Russian people leaves much to hope for, and I do mean much. But if I were God, in this situation I would still unhesitatingly choose Russia to lead to victory, and bring the EU to the point of utter humiliation, or perhaps total conquest.
A huge resurgence in Russian Christianity is something I've been hearing about, and admittedly being an old cold warrior I tend to dismiss or ignore it, but Russian units are highly religious. Shockingly religious. They are not committing atrocities in the Caucasus any longer and have shown great restraint with prisoners in the Crimea. One more reason to throw in with Vlad over the EU.
And it doesn't make much sense for Europe to continue to align itself with the US instead of Russia, if there must be a choice between the two. These sanctions are needlessly damaging the European economy, all for the sake of continuing to prop up the phony dollar-euro regime for the benefit of parasitic oligarchs.
I just randomly checked an opinion piece from the English version of Pravda, such that seemed to be talking about religious matters. Can you imagine reading something like this from any of the biggest news agencies in the West?
"In 1927 Russian Bishop Ignaty Bryanchaninov said, "Whoever does not obtain the kingdom of God within oneself will not recognize the Antichrist and will inevitably, become his follower". Those who do not follow Christ already will be easily seduced by evil and follow it. They will do as the Beast commands and attack the Church of Christ. It effectively pours out upon the world the spirit of lying, impiety, blasphemy and impurity. Turning mankind into animals, it mocks God and shrieks a maniacal laughter as it destroys those destined to be true sons and daughters of God in paradise."
(Rhetorical question, no need to answer)
A huge resurgence in Russian Christianity is something I've been hearing about, and admittedly being an old cold warrior I tend to dismiss or ignore it, but Russian units are highly religious. Shockingly religious.
That's interesting, because when I was looking into Russian brides a decade or so ago, one thing guys were warned about was not to take their claims to be Christian too seriously (of course, that applies to American women on dating sites too). The idea was that the Soviets had shut down or co-opted much of religion, so the younger generations didn't have much basis for their faith and their "Christianity" was likely to be little more than skin-deep fashion, like wearing a nice cross necklace but never going to church.
That never quite rang true for me, because oppression tends to strengthen the faith of those who hold onto it. Maybe the general population lost it, but there should have been a strong underground remnant that's now had a couple decades to spread the faith.
Catholics used to pray after every Mass for the conversion of Russia. I recently heard a priest say it may not be long before Russians are praying for the conversion of America and Europe. Maybe they already should be.
One thing I remember very clearly was Russian Orthodox Bishops demanding good treatment for Georgian prisoners during their dustup in 2008 (?). It seems they got it.
Good article Markku. I do love how the city of Chicago has now become an international symbol of corruption.
It's been said before in other posts about Russia, but the reason some in the West like Putin's actions is not because we really want Russia itself to succeed, it's that Putin is at least ostensibly acting in the self interest of Russia and its people. American politicians are not doing the same for Americans.
There is also the simple desire to see righteousness succeed and wickedness fail, regardless of national boundaries.
"I do love how the city of Chicago has now become an international symbol of corruption."
_Now_?!?
Look up what Brecht had to say about Chicago back in the 30s.
American politicians are not doing the same for Americans.
And this is perhaps one of the reasons Putin must be destroyed.
I do often fear that the Russian Orthodox Church is just Putin's lapdog, and a cynical way to unite the people. That it could really be ANY banner they could raise, but for historical reasons it just happens to have to be a Christian one or it doesn't do the trick.
But I have to admit that Russia doesn't talk like that. They don't act like Obama, embarrassed that they have to play the Christian game because there are still so many Christians in the country. But rather, over and over again, they talk like a people who are proud to be called by the name of Christ, and who will talk about it, given even the slightest excuse.
Why, oh, why did it have to be the friggin' Russians who managed to join the winning team in the global fight? Why not someone, anyone, else? But it was.
Le sigh.
"I do often fear that the Russian Orthodox Church is just Putin's lapdog, and a cynical way to unite the people."
And it may be. While forging a closer alliance with China may be necessary for Russia, it certainly isn't being driven by a motivation to adhere to Christian principles.
But it's hard to blame them too much for doing what they must to survive. Putin proposed a grand strategic alliance to the West, only to have his offer met with treacherous meddling in Ukrainian governance.
When EU comes in and says "Here's your new president. Perhaps a liiiiiitle bit unelected, but whatcha gonna do about it?" then that president has as much or little of a mandate to rule the country as Vladimir Putin has. If East Ukraine wants the latter choice, they have the moral high ground to make it.
Well, if it is true that pressure from the Russian Orthodox Church helped to bring about decent treatment for Georgian prisoners and maybe now Ukranian prisoners, I will count that as a Good Thing, even if Putin is doing so cynically.
If our enemy (if Russia is to be our shiny new Emmanuel Goldstein) is decent, perhaps we won;t be forced to wallow in the gutter as much to engage him.
Vox,
"The "moral high ground" argument puts no pressure on Putin at all. It might sell in the American press, but everyone in Europe knows that the EU is considerably less democratic, more corrupt, and less concerned about its own people than Putin is about his Russian people."
I can forgive you not knowing anything about Russia, though your tendency to routinely comment on things you don't know anything about or really understand in the slightest can get annoying at times, but this simply isn't true. Russia is about as democratic as North Korea. If you're lucky, loudly protesting against Putin will get you beaten. If you're genuinely effective you'll get a bullet in the head. Putin overran Moscow with muslims whom he loves inflicting on Russians.. And last but not least the corruption comment is utterly asinine. Nobody who lives in a first world country has the slightest clue as to what real corruption looks like. Corruption in Russia and other East European countries is on a whole different level from what you think corruption is.
"The EU, aided by American neocons, intervened in Ukraine first, staging a coup and installing a puppet government."
Substantiate this drivel please. What evidence do you have of this?
"It's a clear-cut case of "the EU cries out in pain as it strikes you". Russia is reacting defensively, not acting aggressively."
Yeah Russia acted defensively by sending armed troops to occupy someone else's country. Even if the EU had staged the coup, Ukraine is not Russia and no imperial power can claim to be "acting defensively" when a country they keep subjugated is taken from them. Of course, since the claim that the coup was staged by the EU is an absurd lie (something just aboud anybody who's actually lived in East Europe and isn't Russia would know) all you really have is claiming that Russia is "acting defensively" by subjugating another country.
"Russia has usually defeated the various European powers in war, both individually and in combination, since the dawn of the Napoleonic era. With the exception of the Crimean War, which only managed to delay Russia's Black Sea ambitions for 15 years, Russia has defeated Turkey, defeated France, fought Germany to a standstill (WWI) and defeated Germany (WW2). The Russians have absolutely no fear of the other European nations."
All the wars you mentioned were either defensive wars won for them mostly by the weather or team efforts and says nothing about Russia other than that they had a geographic advantage that means absolutely nothing today.
Johnny quoted Vox and threw down a challenge.
"The EU, aided by American neocons, intervened in Ukraine first, staging a coup and installing a puppet government."
Substantiate this drivel please. What evidence do you have of this?
Hunsdon said: This is going to be good.
Yep, the entertainment value of the thread, come tomorrow morning, just went up a notch.
It's always the best when they come all huffing and puffing. THAT'S the time to grab the popcorns.
clk: Heating bills never go down .. if you have gas heat ... better buy some sweaters and gloves because it wont just be an increase in price.. there simply will not be any gas. ....
As a Texan who realizes a small but tidy royalty income from various gas leases, I for one welcome Ukraine's new Russian overlords. I’d like to remind them that by driving up the global price of gas per cubic foot, they can be helpful in enabling me to realize significant income from my shares of various underground methane caves.
Yeah Russia acted defensively by sending armed troops to occupy someone else's country.
Sort of like the USA did in Grenada in 1983, Panama in 1989, Kosovo in 1999, or Iraq in 2003, to name just a few.
The idea was that the Soviets had shut down or co-opted much of religion, so the younger generations didn't have much basis for their faith and their "Christianity" was likely to be little more than skin-deep fashion, like wearing a nice cross necklace but never going to church.
Some young Russians appear to be more dedicated to Christianity than any American I've met. Read about one Yevgeny Rodionov.
On his 19th birthday, Rodionov was beheaded on the outskirts of the Chechen village Bamut. According to his killers, who later extorted money from his mother in exchange for knowledge of the location of his corpse, they beheaded him after he refused to renounce his Christian faith or remove the silver cross he wore around his neck.
Johnny,
I think you might want to dial down the snottiness before someone smacks you upside the head. How much time have you spent in Ukraine? I lived in Eastern Ukraine for 2 years. I lived in Kharkov for 1 and in Donetsk for most of the second one. Eastern Ukraine is not "Western" oriented. Never has been and never will be. Especially the Donbas.
What do you call it when an outside power uses their influence to help overthrow a government? Did the EU shoot Yanukovich? No. But they, along with Victoria Nuland and others in the U.S. State Department helped keep the pressure up to make sure that Yanukovich knew he was not going to have the "international community" there to maintain his legitimacy. You can scream and yell about his corruption all you want but it does not make him illegitimate. He was elected as fairly as anybody ever is in Ukraine. Nobody waiting in the wings is any more legitimate than he was and Poroshenko (not elected) is not either. So you have an unelected leader vs. the elected leader who was chased out. That's pretty much the textbook definition of a coup. The EU and the State Department met closely with the opposition and put pressure on the Government of Ukraine to let them know that they wanted to see a change in position vis-a-vis the Russians. The link below points to U.S. involvement in the project.
http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2014/february/09/victoria-nulands-ukraine-gate-deceptions.aspx
I agree with you about the corruption argument but not the "democratic as North Korea one". Are you free to protest Putin: no. Are you free to go along with your life doing more or less what you want otherwise? Yep. Big difference when compared with North Korea. A huge difference in fact. The biggest issue is corruption, rather than lack of democracy. In fact, Putin's government has actually improved that problem by at least bringing a lot of it under the auspices of the "government" rather than scattered oligarchs and free lancers. And yes corruption does go from the top to the bottom. It infects everything. Would I want Putin for my leader? No. But then I have Obama and I do not see that as being an improvement. As has been stated by many, many times over: Putin is pro-Russian, even if it is only so that he can aggrandize himself by having a more important country to rule over. Obama by contrast is a globalist and maintains his allegiance to a cabal of international elites with no real affinity for the unwashed masses of their own countries. If I have to choose between the two, both of them by instinct profoundly un-democratic, I will take that one that wants to make the country he presides over more powerful and more secure every time. For my money, that is Putin. At least in comparison to Obama.
As to the Russian response: What would you expect the U.S. to do if the Russians came into Canada, helped overthrow the current government, and installed a puppet government that was in violent opposition to the U.S. and would serve as a possible launching pad or base for anti-U.S. forces? Do you think we would just pretend nothing had happened?
That the Soviet was merely restructured until it could rebuild. It has, and is now on the march.
The only Soviet body on the march is the one that has already infected the USA and the West. McCarthy warned us about this, but we did not listen. Now we regard McCarthy as some sort of bad guy. Our domestic Soviets, if you will, have utterly transformed our societies in the past 50 years to something that middle age people like me no longer recognize.
As for Russia, they are no threat. They are losing nearly 1 million people per year because births are outpaced by deaths. They don't have the demographics to conduct a worldwide conquest. They do not have the economic might to fund the military required to do the job. The only places they can threaten are places with a significant Russian speaking population that wants them to come.
I just don't understand this preoccupation with Russia being a threat. Jesus Christ if you want to find a threat to oppose, it is right in your backyard. Whether you are American, Canadian, Australian or any other European, you have more than enough to deal with domestically. From the immivasion in the USA to the Pakistani rape gangs in the UK, there should be more than enough to keep you occupied without worrying one iota about Russia.
Remember Our Lady of Fatima's warnings. We must pray for the conversion of Russia.
Apparently those prayers are being answered.
NY Fishwrap calls for war with Russia.
"I think you might want to dial down the snottiness before someone smacks you upside the head."
Or what? Vox'll ban me? Be my guest, I doubt I've commented more than a couple of times here anyway. I feel no need to show respect to people rooting for monsters who geopardise my family (both biological and spiritual). VD doesn't really strike me as the type of guy who wants to be treated with fake politeness anyway.
"How much time have you spent in Ukraine?"
0. I was born in another East European country and lived there half my life though. East Europe's relations with Russia are pretty much universal. It's easy to understand the relationship between the US, EU, Ukraine and Russia. Like many others I am entirely aware of Russia's abusive history in the region as well as the general apathy of the US and EU. My grandparents waited decade after decade for the US to rescue them from the soviet menace. No help ever came. I've witnessed two generations of people begging like starved dogs at the gates of Europe to be met mostly with Western apathy. So when I see some dirtbag crap all over my ancestors' wills with idiotic conspiracies about how the struggle of East Europeans to escape Russian tyranny are "really" just the machinations of liberals in the US and the EU my sole desire is to punch the teeth of such people through the back of their throat.
"I lived in Eastern Ukraine for 2 years. I lived in Kharkov for 1 and in Donetsk for most of the second one."
Most russians, regardless of where they live, inevitably side with Russia. It's a part of the Russian psyche that is immutable and makes it a pain to deal with because people like you invariably see inane conspiracies everywhere.
"Eastern Ukraine is not "Western" oriented. Never has been and never will be. Especially the Donbas."
I'm well aware of that. I actually think Eastern Ukraine should be sold back to Russia in exchance for heavy reparations, but that doesn't look like an option anybody is proposing. So why fight for Eastern Ukraine? Because Eastern Ukrainians (IE: Russians) have acted as a conduit for Russian depredation of Ukraine. You don't get to screw over your country then leave when your undeserved power is threatened.
"What do you call it when an outside power uses their influence to help overthrow a government? Did the EU shoot Yanukovich? No. But they, along with Victoria Nuland and others in the U.S. State Department helped keep the pressure up to make sure that Yanukovich knew he was not going to have the "international community" there to maintain his legitimacy."
I'd call it fantasy since this only barely resembles what actually happened.
"You can scream and yell about his corruption all you want but it does not make him illegitimate. He was elected as fairly as anybody ever is in Ukraine. Nobody waiting in the wings is any more legitimate than he was and Poroshenko (not elected) is not either. So you have an unelected leader vs. the elected leader who was chased out. That's pretty much the textbook definition of a coup."
1. The current leader was also elected, actually.
2. Being elected does not mean you necessarily get to keep your position, particularly if you lie and fail to deliver on your promises to an impoverished and pissed off people. It would actually be pretty great if elected president Barack Obama was chased out of the White House by pissed off rednecks in makeshift medieval body armor. The Ukrainians, unlike Vox, actually put their lives on the line to fight for their freedom despite the fact that the enemy they face is a lot more dangerous than the enemy Vox faces.
3. Yanukovich wasn't actually chased out, he ran off on his own instead of completing negotiations with the protesters.
"The EU and the State Department met closely with the opposition and put pressure on the Government of Ukraine to let them know that they wanted to see a change in position vis-a-vis the Russians. The link below points to U.S. involvement in the project.
http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2014/february/09/victoria-nulands-ukraine-gate-deceptions.aspx"
I ordinarily wouldn't click on anything that starts with "ron paul" but this time I did and instantly regretted it:
"The call consisted of the two plotting to install a US puppet government in Ukraine after overthrowing the current, democratically elected government. "
I'm familiar with the call, which largely involves around Nuland yapping about what she'd like to happen and who to talk to, and all around shows how little influence the US actually has.
"I agree with you about the corruption argument but not the "democratic as North Korea one". Are you free to protest Putin: no. Are you free to go along with your life doing more or less what you want otherwise? Yep. Big difference when compared with North Korea."
I never said Russia is as totalitarian as North Korea. I said it's just as democratic. That just means you don't have any real say in who rules you, it doesn't mean Putin obliterates you with mortal fire if you drink on his birthday. Mind you I don't care for democracy at all, I was merely responding to one of Vox's absurd claims.
"A huge difference in fact... For my money, that is Putin. At least in comparison to Obama."
I have no doubt that Putin is better for Russia than Obama is for the US. Mind you, I don't think the hosannas poured on him by internet reactionaries are deserved much, but I really don't give a crap if Putin floods Moscow with Muslims or if cossacks beat pussy riot members with canes or much of anything that happens in Russia. I only care about his effect on the outside world, which largely consists of subjugating his fellow Christians and killing them if they fight back.
"As to the Russian response: What would you expect the U.S. to do if the Russians came into Canada, helped overthrow the current government, and installed a puppet government that was in violent opposition to the U.S. and would serve as a possible launching pad or base for anti-U.S. forces? Do you think we would just pretend nothing had happened?"
It's not about what I expect but about what's the decent thing to do. And the decent thing to do is for Russia to realise it has no business running other people's countries. It's not even just a matter of morality but straight up competence. Ukraine under Russian hegemony is a wreck. They had their chance to prove themselves useful and failed, which is why the Ukrainians rebelled against their puppet. Your analogy is pretty bizarre to begin with though because US oligarchs aren't looting Canada nor are Canadians begging for membership into the Russian Federation.
Hey Johnny,
We don't care. Get over it.
--NY Fishwrap calls for war with Russia.--
Yids and fags yapping.
- Schlomo
0. I was born in another East European country and lived there half my life though.
So in other words you are more concerned about Eastern Europe than about the rot taking place in the West. To people whose ancestors built the USA and the West, we are more concerned about the demographic demise of our nations than we are about Eastern Europe.
"So in other words you are more concerned about Eastern Europe than about the rot taking place in the West."
No, I'm more concerned about the latter. The two go hand in hand though, seeing how East Europe (sans Russia which is actually a huge multicultural pit full of crazy muslims not unlike France or Britain) is one of the few places left where white people haven't decided to poison their countries with third world refuse.
"To people whose ancestors built the USA and the West, we are more concerned about the demographic demise of our nations than we are about Eastern Europe."
Feel free to shut up then. You sure have a lot of posts about something you're not all that concerned about.
Johnny,
You actually have a very good point about Ukraine. The Ukrainians have to continually suffer the "Russification" Project throughout their territory. That means that all of the major media, the university positions, the government offices, the corporate heads, and everything in-between must conducted in the Russian language with Russians in control. The Ukrainians are tired of this arrangement, which is why they rebelled against their Russian puppet government.
The US may have its own grand designs, but they would never be able to martial so much Ukrainian support if the hostility was not there to begin with.
There is no Eastern European country, including the basket case that refers to itself as Ukraine, that is worth the blood of a single US or Western European soldier.
Putin does not want to occupy any part of Ukraine if he can help it, he knows Russians would quickly tire of the sacrifices needed to save that economic tar pit. Frankly I don't think the EU wants Ukraine either, but their leaders dance to the American Empire's tune.
I almost have to think that the European leaders hope that Russia will intervene, just though they can say "Bad Russia!", and then wash their hands of the whole mess.
Hunsdon August 31, 2014 2:19 PM
@ Grinder
"I grew up in a USN/USMC family, so it was a long time before I realized the key phrase to describe WW2 was not "Island hopping." The more I read, the more I came to the conclusion that two things won WW2: American manufacturing capacity, and Russian blood. In the thirty years since I came to that conclusion, I've read nothing to change my mind."
You forgot "American oil" (and perhaps a shortage of oil on the Axis side, particularly in Europe).
At Hunsdon/Hunter: yes, you're right. Apologies, Gazprom is wrong.
@bob k. Mando
Yes, Hunsdon picked up on this before. Apologies, Gazprom is wrong and Burisma is right.
@Aphelion
Yup. Pretty much agree with you on all of it. Interesting to note that not rarely, some officers are more politi ally astute than the politicians who command them. My view has always been that the politicians and bankers who start wars should lead from the front, in the infantry, wearing bright red uniforms.
Obviously the Soviets lost the winter war. The Soviet objective was to take Finland, they failed achieving it, hence - clear loss. Taking some territory doesn't change the missed objective.
ENthePeasant: That Russia is keeping the Chinese from occupying Siberia and its resources is reason enough to take Putin's side. A weak Russia will have a hard time keeping tens of millions of Chinese on their own side of the border. I don't doubt that the Chinese are well aware of the creeping creation of Aztlan in what was once American territory.
Proof that Putin did it: http://tinyurl.com/oj3p9ga
'Yanukovich wasn't actually chased out, he ran off on his own instead of completing negotiations with the protesters.'
BS, Johnny. Yanukovich caved in on everything and signed on the dotted line. Once his guard was down they tried to kill him which led to his fleeing to kharkiv, where he remained while the 'protesters' set up a new government and issued warrants for his arrest. None of this was done according to the Ukrainian Constitution.
'I'm familiar with the call, which largely involves around Nuland yapping about what she'd like to happen and who to talk to, and all around shows how little influence the US actually has.'
She spoke of 'midwifing a new government' and named the baby too you disingenuous prick.
Johnny said: I'm familiar with the call, which largely involves around Nuland yapping about what she'd like to happen and who to talk to, and all around shows how little influence the US actually has.
Hunsdon said: Yeah, she said Yatsenuk ought to be prime minister, and we know that didn't happen.
Giuseppe said: Apologies, Gazprom is wrong.
Hunsdon said: De nada! We all make little slips. (I certainly have.)
Giuseppe said: My view has always been that the politicians and bankers who start wars should lead from the front, in the infantry, wearing bright red uniforms.
Hunsdon said: Where's the like button for this post? I'm an antiwar conservative, mostly because of the whole "unintended consequences" thing. And I agree with Kris Kristofferson who said (loosely), "I support the troops, I'm against the assholes who send them into stupid wars."
Luke reminded me: You forgot "American oil" (and perhaps a shortage of oil on the Axis side, particularly in Europe).
Hunsdon said: The US oil embargo (80% supplier) on Japan helped get things rolling, as well.
"Hunsdon said: Yeah, she said Yatsenuk ought to be prime minister, and we know that didn't happen."
I did her one better, I said Barack Obama would win in 2012. Guess what happened?
Yats resigned anyway, for no real good reason. Some puppet.
So, Johnny, what's your proposed solution? Let's pretend I'm President (of the United States) and you're my Kissinger. "Johnny," I say, "What do we do about this Ukrainian business?"
JLA
"BS, Johnny. Yanukovich caved in on everything and signed on the dotted line."
Not true, the protesters' chief request was that he resign, which he didn't. Then he ran off, making the request moot.
"She spoke of 'midwifing a new government' and named the baby too you disingenuous prick."
Midwife shows up once in the script, but it's not Nuland who says it. Surprise surprise, another jackass who can't read. Here it is, in context:
"Pyatt: But anyway we could land jelly side up on this one if we move fast. So let me work on Klitschko and if you can just keep... we want to try to get somebody with an international personality to come out here and help to midwife this thing. "
Why does he need to "work on Klitschko" if they're the mastermind behind the conspiracy? Why do they need to get an international personality to come there and help? If they're the ones in charge then they just give the orders and their Ukrainian puppets execute on command. Oh yeah, because the lie that the US or the EU are the ones who staged the coup is just that: a lie, with no evidence for it and evidence released by the Russians (the tapes) against it.
Hunsdon
"So, Johnny, what's your proposed solution? Let's pretend I'm President (of the United States) and you're my Kissinger. "Johnny," I say, "What do we do about this Ukrainian business?"
Send the Ukrainians weapons and lots of cash (with US monitors to make sure the money gets spent on improving the country rather than get looted by oligarchs). Keep bankers and usury out of it. If Russia does a full scale invasion (which I don't think they actually want) then assassinating Putin should be on the table. I'm actually surprised nobody's tried it yet. Without Putin to keep the oligarchs in check Russia would almost certainly collapse into in-fighting and hopefully leave the rest of us alone.
"The US oil embargo (80% supplier) on Japan helped get things rolling, as well."
Depends what you mean by "things". Imperial Japan was already mauling China and the GEAC-PS was in full swing. If you didn't want a planet that looked that way, your options were, uh, limited.
'Midwife shows up once in the script, but it's not Nuland who says it. Surprise surprise, another jackass who can't read.'
Ok, you got me there. It was our ambassador to Ukraine using the term midwife with Nuland. That totally absolves our government.
'Why does he need to "work on Klitschko" if they're the mastermind behind the conspiracy?'
To minimize infighting amongst the various factions vying for power. Hardly a 'conspiracy'. Happens all the time even within political parties.
'Why do they need to get an international personality to come there and help? If they're the ones in charge then they just give the orders and their Ukrainian puppets execute on command.'
You left out Nuland's response-
Nuland: So on that piece Geoff, when I wrote the note [US vice-president's national security adviser Jake] Sullivan's come back to me VFR [direct to me], saying you need [US Vice-President Joe] Biden and I said probably tomorrow for an atta-boy and to get the deets [details] to stick. So Biden's willing.
Biden's your 'international personality' you dope.
Oh yeah, because the lie that the US or the EU are the ones who staged the coup is just that: a lie, with no evidence for it and evidence released by the Russians (the tapes) against it.'
Well, at least you're now admitting there was coup.
A Plate of Shrimp said: If you didn't want a planet that looked that way, your options were, uh, limited.
Hunsdon said: I wasn't discussing whether the embargo was right or wrong, good or bad----I was just pointing out that it certainly restricted Japan's petroleum supplies, and focused their attention on the US.
Johnny said: Send the Ukrainians weapons and lots of cash (with US monitors to make sure the money gets spent on improving the country rather than get looted by oligarchs). Keep bankers and usury out of it. If Russia does a full scale invasion (which I don't think they actually want) then assassinating Putin should be on the table.
Hunsdon said: That's more Billy Carter than Hank Kissinger. So you're saying that we and only we can choose either to arm a legitimate government (as in Ukraine), or to arm opponents of a legitimate government (as in Syria), and you're saying that we have the right to assassinate reigning heads of state, including heads of state of nuclear armed powers. Your willingness to play dice with nuclear war would be insane, were it not merely internet bluster.
@Hunsdon: well, as you like. It's not my intention to put words in your mouth, say whatever it is you think best. But you must admit, that in an otherwise fairly blank context, "helped get things rolling" is loaded language. The origins of WW2 are an utter clusterf*ck, and I confess I'm at times baffled at how it was permitted to happen. But the Pacific War didn't just start "rolling" because of a petrol boycott.
@ Plate of Shrimp:
Oh, I agree. I've always thought it was kind of Eurocentric to date the start of WW2 in 1939, given that the Japanese rolled into Manchuria in 1931, and full on war between China and Japan dates to '37.
There's a theory that argues that WW2 was just WW1: Part Two: This Time Its Personal, a "technical interruption" in hostilities to allow a fresh crop of cannon fodder to be born and grow to rifle-carrying age.
Without Putin to keep the oligarchs in check Russia would almost certainly collapse into in-fighting and hopefully leave the rest of us alone.
You mentioned you were from Eastern Europe. Can you let us know your background, such as ethnicity and religion? You wouldn't have to disclose your actual identity. It would just be interesting to know so that we could make more sense of your apparent deep anti-Russian feelings.
Johnny is hilarious. How can anyone here side with the Nazis who run Ukraine?
We have an influential figure of the US government picking the members of government from a country that not only is significantly Russian but also is a neighbor country of Russia, on tape. Apparently, that isn't sufficient proof that the US had it's hands in that coup.
You know it's kind of hard to take you seriously, when you deny something so obvious.
"There is no Eastern European country, including the basket case that refers to itself as Ukraine, that is worth the blood of a single US or Western European soldier."
Pity Pulaski and Kosciusko helped your country. What a waste. We don't need your help Yank.
Joe said: Pity Pulaski and Kosciusko helped your country. What a waste. We don't need your help Yank.
Hunsdon said: Tell me another one, Joe. (PS: Let's not forget Lafayette!)
"Can you let us know your background, such as ethnicity and religion? You wouldn't have to disclose your actual identity. It would just be interesting to know so that we could make more sense of your apparent deep anti-Russian feelings."
I'm a white Eastern Orthodox Christian. Which probably doesn't tell you anything since deep anti-Russian feelings exist in virtually all non-Russian East Europeans. There's a reason why most of EE joined up with Hitler against the Soviet Union.
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