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Wednesday, September 17, 2014

Where was Jenny?

It should be interesting to see how the pro-vaxxers attempt to vaxsplain away these deaths:
As many as 36 children were reported to have died excruciating deaths last night after receiving tainted measles vaccines under a UN-sponsored programme in the rebel-held north of Syria. The programme was suspended amid rumours of sabotage of a high profile international effort to ensure the brutal civil war does not result in an outbreak of measles....

 “It’s very bad. The figures of dead we are getting go into the 30s. Children are dying very quickly,” said Daher Zidan, the coordinator of the medical charity, Uossm. “We think it will get worse.”

The Syrian opposition coalition, which controls the area of Idlib province and had been administering the programme, said it had halted the immunisation project forthwith. 
Maybe the vaccines were tainted or maybe their reporting system simply doesn't define away lethal vaccine reactions by attributing them to other causes. If gunshot wounds were treated like vaccine reactions, we'd have a massive increase in the number of deaths attributed to inexplicably falling on the sidewalk in addition to a huge decline in the number of firearms homicides. Notice that despite all the complaints about unvaccinated American children and the thousands of imported measles cases, there have been ZERO deaths from measles since the disease was reported as eradicated from the USA in 2000. These days, the vaccine is literally deadlier than the disease.

While pro-vaxxers habitually blame Jenny McCarthy for nonexistent deaths that only take place on television, the actual deaths of those 30+ children are on the hands of the pro-vaccine advocates. And, again, note that any problem with measles in the USA has absolutely nothing to do with unvaccinated children, but is entirely the consequence of immigration and globalization.

According to the CDC, the nearly 600 cases of measles in 2014 represent "the highest number for one year since the disease was eliminated from the country in 2000".

Regarding the possible "tainting" of the vaccines:
“Medical experts said a contaminated batch of the vaccine was the most likely explanation for the incident.... At least five children have died and 50 others are suffering from poisoning or allergic reactions after measles vaccinations in Jirjanaz, in Idlib province,” the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said.

Mohammad Mowas, a Syrian doctor working in Turkey, said the reported symptoms were a gradual slowdown in the heart rate as the infants turned blue and were consistent with cyanide poisoning. “This looks like deliberate attempt to spike the vaccines,” he said.
If the vaccines were spiked, I think we all know who the likely culprit must be....

Labels:

161 Comments:

Anonymous PhillipGeorge(c)2014 September 17, 2014 8:48 AM  

Day in, day out, the cult of scientism pervades medicine, like leeches the soggy undergrowth of a marsh.
/stock up on vitamin C, 3000 soldiers are prosecuting the war on Ebola now and are bound to want to come home when they get sick.

WHO will protect you - WHO will. Holy Ghost Busters Inc. - for failing 101.

{Robert C Beck protocols, Jim Humble protocols, ozone and or peroxide protocols, colloidal silver, iodine detox, - there is hope after-all}

Anonymous Michael September 17, 2014 8:54 AM  

There's clear evidence linking vaccinations with autism, paralysis, illnesses and death, yet the pro-vaccine crowd white-washes it. Seems they put their reputation before other people's well-being.

Anonymous rho September 17, 2014 9:08 AM  

If the vaccines were deliberately tampered with, how does it become the vaccine's fault? I guess if there were zero vaccinations given, then there would be zero deaths from tampering. Similarly, if nobody drove a car, there would be zero deaths from automobile accidents.

Blogger August September 17, 2014 9:16 AM  

Immigration plus the vaccines only provide a short-term pseudo-immunity. Long term we are in for serious problems. Well vaccinated moms are providing little to no immune support to their infants.

Anonymous Michael September 17, 2014 9:20 AM  

rho, what of all the non-tainted vaccines? Besides, for all you know, they could be claiming sabotage just to cover their asses. Where's the evidence?

Anonymous VD September 17, 2014 9:26 AM  

If the vaccines were deliberately tampered with, how does it become the vaccine's fault?

What evidence is there that the vaccines were deliberately tampered with? You don't find it suspicious that some children die and the immediate assumption is that because there are poisons already known to be in there, that means there must be some other poisons that were added later.

In any event, the possibility that vaccines will be tampered with is a factor that has to be taken into account if you are going to argue for or against the net benefit of vaccines. If you don't inject anything into kids, they obviously won't die from poisoned injections. Remember, this one incident is already more fatalities than every measles vaccine in America has prevented for at least 20 years.

Blogger Tiny Tim September 17, 2014 9:30 AM  

The vats the vaccines are cooked in are cleaned thoroughly between different vaccine production runs.

Don't worry, there is never any cross contamination. The Chinese and Indian vaccines are manufactured to the highest quality with the utmost love for you, the American sloth.

Just take your vaccines girls. If you don't you will die.

Blogger Glen Filthie September 17, 2014 9:38 AM  

Congratulations, Mr. Day, on blowing the lid off this crock of hooey dreamed up by intellectual hacks like Louis Pasteur and his band of poxy microbiologists/charlatans! Why, who woulda thunk that immunology was the same pant load that 'climate science' is! I stand in awe of your vast intellect, and ask your enlightenment: how do you propose to properly address pandemics and epidemics in the future? Blood letting and leeches? Astrology? Perhaps protection from diseases can be bought from the church with healthy donations? Poultices of molds and human feces work great on open sores!!!

HAR HAR HAR!

Good grief. Here's a vaxplanation for ya. Do a simple threat assessment. What are your statistical chances of being laid low by bad batches of vaccine - even when your vaccination program is administered by third world chimpanzees and the corrupt mudflaps of the UN? What are your chances of surviving an infection without being immunized for it beforehand? Good grief, it's like trying to explain the concept of insurance to children...

Blogger Tiny Tim September 17, 2014 9:46 AM  

A vaccine experience to the faithless American is akin to Holy Communion.

They used to line up for snake elixirs, now they line up for dead virus' that wreak havoc on their systems.

They will also line up to convict those who see the vaccine truth. We are a threat to their pathetic pilgrimage to their holy church, the vaccine mill.

Anonymous rho September 17, 2014 9:46 AM  

What evidence is there that the vaccines were deliberately tampered with?

None. Well, if the report that said the effects were consistent with cyanide poisoning is true, that's not nothing.

Remember, this one incident is already more fatalities than every measles vaccine in America has prevented for at least 20 years.

True enough.

I'm not sure why they're vaccinating in rural Syria, and the article doesn't say, but the proper comparison is to show how many kids have died from measles in Syria, not America. I tried a quick Google for numbers, but didn't come up with anything.

I suspect that standard practices for wartime areas is to vaccinate willy-nilly if there is going to be significant clustering of refugees in camps or whatever. That may be good or bad, but it's different enough that it's not a fair apples-to-apples comparison with the US vaccination schedule.

Anonymous FP September 17, 2014 9:47 AM  

"What evidence is there that the vaccines were deliberately tampered with?"

Come now VD. We all know its a conspiracy by that evil brutal dictator Assad to get at his enemies. The state department will be along shortly to confirm this, just after they finish shredding and burning some other documents.

" even when your vaccination program is administered by third world chimpanzees and the corrupt mudflaps of the UN? "

Yes Glen. Just like the third world chimps at Walgreens and RiteAid who pimp their flu vaccines every year. Like the third world mudflaps who preach low fat diets and the evils of saturated fats while pimping statin drugs to reduce the evil cholesterol.

Anonymous Gecko September 17, 2014 10:08 AM  

"Do a simple threat assessment. What are your statistical chances of being laid low by bad batches of vaccine...? What are your chances of surviving an infection without being immunized for it?"

Please, do enlighten us, Glen. Surely there must be proper, replicable, double-blind studies that scientifically measure all the benefits and risks. It would be so simple, after all.

Blogger Chris Ritchie September 17, 2014 10:10 AM  

The vaxers will tell you it was worth it. The needs of the many and herd immunity are more important than individuals. That this is a religious worldview from secular humanism is lost on them. The dignity of the individual and personal property rights are distinctly Christian worldviews which is why they are hated.

Anonymous Anonymous September 17, 2014 10:11 AM  

Good grief. Here's a vaxplanation for ya. Do a simple threat assessment. What are your statistical chances of being laid low by bad batches of vaccine - even when your vaccination program is administered by third world chimpanzees and the corrupt mudflaps of the UN? What are your chances of surviving an infection without being immunized for it beforehand? Good grief, it's like trying to explain the concept of insurance to children...

Except, this isn't what most pro vaccers do. They pretty much think there are no side effects and then they argue that anyone who thinks "hey, there might be side effects" are Luddites.

Blogger Glen Filthie September 17, 2014 10:12 AM  

"They will also line up to convict those who see the vaccine truth. We are a threat to their pathetic pilgrimage to their holy church, the vaccine mill..."
-------------------------------------------------------------

Not at all, Tim! Bad batches of vaccines are sure to happen. Bad reactions to good batches will happen too.

You could also die in a car crash, the wings could come off the airplane on your next trip overseas, or you can slip and fall in the bathtub or fall off a ladder.

I don't dispute any of that - I dispute your perspective. And if you want to compare the products of the modern pharm industry to Dr. Filthie's Snake Oil From Mars & Nerve Tonic...I would have to say you lack perspective on this issue.

Anonymous kfg September 17, 2014 10:14 AM  

"They used to line up for snake elixirs, now they line up for . . ."

. . . fish elixirs. The elixir market has always been good.

Anonymous VD September 17, 2014 10:16 AM  

Do a simple threat assessment. What are your statistical chances of being laid low by bad batches of vaccine - even when your vaccination program is administered by third world chimpanzees and the corrupt mudflaps of the UN?

Do tell. We await your assessment of the relevant probabilities.

Blogger Tiny Tim September 17, 2014 10:29 AM  

GlennFilthie: "I don't dispute any of that - I dispute your perspective. And if you want to compare the products of the modern pharm industry to Dr. Filthie's Snake Oil From Mars & Nerve Tonic...I would have to say you lack perspective on this issue."

I compare the unfaithfulness of the vaccine victims who believe good health is found in a shot or an elixir and is a requirement for good health. It is a character flaw.

Anonymous DavidK September 17, 2014 10:30 AM  

Louis Pasteur... Why, who woulda thunk that immunology was the same pant load that 'climate science' is!

Glenn "Let's try 19th century outdated solutions for 21st century problems!" Filthie

Anonymous wEz September 17, 2014 10:32 AM  

Good, pump shit in to your own fucking kid, puppet. Just stay the fuck away from mine troll.
Also, keep your herd mentality garbage far away loser.
HAR HAR indeed you fucking cunt.

Blogger Tiny Tim September 17, 2014 10:36 AM  

It is all about risk reduction. If I don't get the vaccine I won't get gullain barre and other negative health effects. I have reduced that risk to zero.

Might I get the flu? OK, I get the flu and I am down three days. Am I going to get the measles? Statistically, even unvaccinated, the chances are approaching zero.

Keep getting your vaccines if it makes you feel better. It is foolish when looked at objectively but go ahead and let your emotions destroy your health if that is your want. At least you think you are doing something. Ignorance is bliss they say.

Blogger Tiny Tim September 17, 2014 10:38 AM  

Look, there are fools who cut their breasts off "proactively".

Of course vaccines make sense to these morons.

Blogger Tiny Tim September 17, 2014 10:40 AM  

Let the good progressives pump vaccines into their little boys and bring on autism.

They love the victim role anyway.

And the moron conservatives who still think big-pharma loves them, good luck with shooting yourself full of who knows what.

Blogger Chris Ritchie September 17, 2014 10:43 AM  

Glen, please check out the graph on this link.
http://drsuzanne.net/dr-suzanne-humphries-vaccines-vaccination/

Vaccines were introduced AFTER the diseases were already in decline due to better nutrition and hygiene. Allopathic medicine then swooped in to take credit where none was due. Remember the axiom, correlation is not causation.

Since this thread is addressing Measles, note that the rates of Measles infections were essentially zero when the vaccine was introduced in 1963. Please also note the following:

"A 2012 study led by Dr. David Witt, an infectious disease specialist at the San Rafael, California Kaiser Permanente Medical Center concluded that whooping cough occurs more among vaccinated children than children not vaccinated."

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/035715_vaccines_history_fraud.html#ixzz3DaH82trc

Parroting the party line on this thread doesn't work. Cite your sources. We're waiting.

Anonymous Will Best September 17, 2014 10:43 AM  

Good grief, it's like trying to explain the concept of insurance to children...

Dad: You see son, I am playing Russian roulette with this gun NOW, because some day you might have to play Russian roulette with that gun over there and it has fewer chambers.

Son: But dad why do we need to play Russian roulette with either gun?

Dad: Our leaders, in their infinite wisdom, have decided that people who shit in their drinking water, live in mud huts, and eat with hands should have unfettered access to our country. Further it is in our best interest to allow anybody traveling to those countries to just walk around in ours without first making them prove they aren't sick by spending time in a quarantine.

---

Incidentally, even as something as scary as Ebola, is decently survivable. Consider that the first cases had survival rates of less than 10%, and it presently is only killing about 55-60% of the people that get it.

This is in large part due to the fact that the people getting it now are healthier to begin with and receiving treatment (even if its just symptom management earlier).

Take Measles for example, most people that die due to dehydration and/or malnutrition, which are simple things to fix with an IV.

Blogger Tiny Tim September 17, 2014 10:45 AM  

Chris Ritchie, you are wasting your time. The vaccine acolytes never let facts get in the way of their emotions.

Anonymous DavidK September 17, 2014 10:50 AM  

I do think Ebola is a very serious threat, but I agree that it may just be a case that the death rate is so high in Africa because even their hospitals are so ill-supplied that maintaining an IV is not possible in many places.

Blogger Cataline Sergius September 17, 2014 10:57 AM  

Mohammad Mowas, a Syrian doctor working in Turkey, said the reported symptoms were a gradual slowdown in the heart rate as the infants turned blue and were consistent with cyanide poisoning. “This looks like deliberate attempt to spike the vaccines,” he said.

I can't find anything else about this online and the original is from the Telegraph, so take that with a big grain salt.

But with no other data available this looks like deliberate murder, using poisoned vaccines as the vector.

Question: why is deliberate murder an argument against vaccination?

Anonymous Noah B. September 17, 2014 10:58 AM  

"In any event, the possibility that vaccines will be tampered with is a factor that has to be taken into account if you are going to argue for or against the net benefit of vaccines. If you don't inject anything into kids, they obviously won't die from poisoned injections. Remember, this one incident is already more fatalities than every measles vaccine in America has prevented for at least 20 years."

Exactly. The risk associated with having some unknown substance injected into your body is incalculable. On top of that, the fact that vaccines are not sold over-the-counter (i.e., the health care provider chooses which dose to give to the patient instead of the patient choosing) only increases the risk that vaccines could be utilized as a delivery system for toxins targeted to specific individuals.

Blogger Glen Filthie September 17, 2014 10:59 AM  

Well boys, this is the way this mid-witted ignorant neocon slut (gawd, I love that!) sees it:

Ordinarily I would be more than happy to let you boys meet your fates and take your chances at the hands of Darwin and Murphy, just as I do with the whining queers that come down with HIV/AIDS. They sound just like you by the way; they huff and puff that they should have the freedom to do what they want in their own beds...and when they come down with HIV they whine that we should be happy to get in their hospital beds with them at our expense as if we have a moral obligation to them to be there. Sorry, they can't have it both ways and neither can you.

You have the right to be willfully ignorant and stupid. You do not have the right to inflict the results of that on your kids and your neighbours or the public at large.

None of this is really up for argument, it is all just plain common sense and respect for the common good. Every effort is made to ensure your safety, there is absolutely no need to panic and over react.

It's unmanly, fellas...just sayin'.

Blogger Glen Filthie September 17, 2014 11:01 AM  

"Exactly. The risk associated with having some unknown substance injected into your body is incalculable..."
---------------------------------------------------

And yet, most libertarians will rage against the war on drugs.

Anonymous Noah B. September 17, 2014 11:03 AM  

"And yet, most libertarians will rage against the war on drugs."

And rightly so. The government cannot possibly stop people from being idiots.

Anonymous wEz September 17, 2014 11:03 AM  

Love how vacc pushers have all there angles covered too.
1) If your not vaccinated and you get it, its because you weren't vacc.
2) If you were vacc and you do get it, its prolly because you weren't up on your boosters.
3) If you were vacc, up to date on boosters, you must be up against an evolving strain...so its not on us! But here, lets pump more shit in to your child's system. You see, we make lots of money this way regardless.
Brilliant!!!

Anonymous Anonymous September 17, 2014 11:07 AM  

One need only examine the case of Baxter international shipping 72 pounds of live flue virus to Europe in 2009 (as I recall), which was an interesting combination of viruses. One CZ lab actually tested the stuff and all of the ferrets died. They then discovered that they were about to make millions of doses of flue vaccine with live virus. Oops. Baxter runs a biosafe level 3 facility. It is IMPOSSIBLE for that shipment to have been an error or accident.

Oops. Busted. But nobody got prosecuted, everybody looked the other way. Nothing to see there folks. One global pandemic averted, but don't ask any questions. Yep, vaccines are safe and be sure to get your flu shot!!!

Anonymous The other skeptic September 17, 2014 11:18 AM  

ISIS is the cause of all the new infectious diseases and doesn't like singers or dancers or movie actors.

Anonymous Gecko September 17, 2014 11:21 AM  

@Will Best

Son: Dad, how many chambers do those revolvers have, anyway?

Dad: Don't you sass me! I said that one has fewer chambers, and none of this is really up for argument.

Anonymous earl September 17, 2014 11:21 AM  

Glen, help me work on this cost benefit risk analysis. I have 5 kids and it is important you and I get this right.

Vaccination costs/risks/benefits:
Child will never get scary disease .75%
Child will never get minor disease .375%
Child will be socially accepted .40%
Child will react negatively to shot right away .0023%
Child will still get the disease some day anyways.%.0945%
Child will suffer from unknown-as-of-yet side effects .1936%
Child has been poisoned by jihadist/Nazi/commie.0000375%

Total probability of risk/cost:
Total benefit:
Final analysis:

Blogger Chris Ritchie September 17, 2014 11:22 AM  

You do not have the right to inflict the results of that on your kids and your neighbours or the public at large.

None of this is really up for argument, it is all just plain common sense and respect for the common good. Every effort is made to ensure your safety, there is absolutely no need to panic and over react.

This is the core of the issue Glenn. Who has rights over children? Parents or the State? And who decides what the common good is? Increasingly people are trying to segregate but the authoritarian fascists want to demand that all people be vaccinated for the common good.

Well, many people don't see it that way anymore due to better research and education. And shouldn't those people have the right of association? My own sister admitted it as much to me recently: "I trust the government to make decisions for the common good." Well, I don't. It goes against my religious beliefs and against common sense. Why should I let a distant entity decide what is best for my own children? You're making the unbelievably arrogant claim that government knows better than me?

Like they did with Thalidomide? Or Vioxx? Or Gardasil? Or giving Hepatitis B vaccines to newborns only hours old? Or how about the more sinister campaigns waged by our government like testing Syphilis on black males without their consent?

Here's an easy one. Read the back of your toothpaste tube. It recommends calling poison control if more than a teaspoon is swallowed. Yet fluoride is added to the drinking water? What's wrong with this picture? The line of abuses is just too long. Trust has been lost. And examples like the measles poisoning that started this thread just confirm it for me.

So no, you don't have the right to tell me what is best for me. I don't owe any loyalty to the commons that I didn't vote for or voluntarily agree to be a part of. My first loyalty is to God, then my family, then my friends, then my community, then my state. Nation is far, far down the list and they hate it because they want my first loyalty. Too bad. Individual rights of association trump the common good.

Anonymous Earl September 17, 2014 11:26 AM  

Specifically, I need better probabilities since I only used best guesses. I'm sure you have the real data to back up the probabilities. I also need you to do the maths adding and subtracting the probabilities for the final analysis/conclusion. I am sure i missed some costs too. Please help. I am just a buck tooth farm boy with a banjo home schooling my cute little fundies.

If you don't answer this cost benefit analysis I motion for you to be banned, unless you're willing to apologize

Anonymous Gecko September 17, 2014 11:28 AM  

"None of this is really up for argument"

Oh look - a woman lecturing us about manliness.

Anonymous kfg September 17, 2014 11:28 AM  

"Every effort is made to ensure your safety . . ."

To the extent that that has ever been true it was when people had something called a "doctor."

Now they have a "health care delivery system," which, by it's very title, does not even maintain the pretence of caring about your individual safety.

It is veterinary herd management, where the goal is the highest economic yield from the group. Caring about the safety of the individual is expensive and reduces the yield.

Statistics are not medicine.

Anonymous VD September 17, 2014 11:35 AM  

None of this is really up for argument, it is all just plain common sense and respect for the common good.

In other words, you've got absolutely nothing. Again.

HAR HAR HAR.

Sweet St. Pasteur, but you're stupid. You can't argue your way out of a paper bag.

Anonymous VD September 17, 2014 11:40 AM  

But with no other data available this looks like deliberate murder, using poisoned vaccines as the vector.

Are you really dumb enough to say it looks like anything on the basis of precisely zero substantive evidence. Maybe someone at the pharmaceutical company hates Syrians.

Question: why is deliberate murder an argument against vaccination?

Because vaccination makes it very, very easy. Pro-vaxxers should probably shut the fuck up about vaccine skeptics "having blood on their hands" because it would be trivially easy to shut down the entire vaccine industry forever if they were actually as indifferent to human life as the pro-vaxxers claim.

Just moving a single decimal point on one of the nastier poisons that go into the mix is all it would take.

Anonymous wEz September 17, 2014 11:42 AM  

HAR HAR HAR!!!!

Anonymous rho September 17, 2014 11:54 AM  

This is the core of the issue Glenn. Who has rights over children? Parents or the State? And who decides what the common good is? Increasingly people are trying to segregate but the authoritarian fascists want to demand that all people be vaccinated for the common good.

Voluntary segregation is fine, as far as it goes. Can the mall ask for your vaccination records before they let you in to shop?

I think it was VD who made the point once that what's needed is continuing study on the effects of vaccines. At this point we are starting to have enough anti- or non-vaccinators that something along those lines could be performed. That would be more productive than people accusing each other of being either murderers or morons.

Read the back of your toothpaste tube. It recommends calling poison control if more than a teaspoon is swallowed. Yet fluoride is added to the drinking water? What's wrong with this picture?

In that case? Lawyers.

Anonymous MendoScot September 17, 2014 11:57 AM  

Might I get the flu? OK, I get the flu and I am down three days

Or get the flu shot and be down for the rest of your life. How many people know their haplotype?

Are you DQB1*06:02, GF? About 1 in 4 Americans are...

Blogger FALPhil September 17, 2014 11:57 AM  

DavidK wrote:
I do think Ebola is a very serious threat, but I agree that it may just be a case that the death rate is so high in Africa because even their hospitals are so ill-supplied that maintaining an IV is not possible in many places.

Hospitals? What hospitals? Have you ever been to equatorial Africa?

Glen Filthie wrote:
None of this is really up for argument, it is all just plain common sense and respect for the common good.


To take a page from Vance:

I believe in the free market, not the common good.
I believe in individual liberty, not majority rule.
I believe in minding my own business, not being a busybody.

Anonymous Statists are so dull September 17, 2014 12:02 PM  

...respect for the common good
Having worked in vaccines, I can tell you that there aint a lot of that when they make their decisions. It is merely their cover.

Look forward to compulsory Gardasil (you know, the cervical cancer vaccine) for your boys soon.

Blogger Glen Filthie September 17, 2014 12:10 PM  

Hey! HEY!!! Stop it you cretins!!! Only I may laugh like that! Or a small number of mid-witted ignorant neocon sluts - that must be personally approved by Yours Truly!

Vox, all I can say is that the science has been around for 100 years. People that do this for a living will line up against you 100 deep. If you had a legitimate point of view I think somebody besides the usual cranks, pot heads and self proclaimed experts would agree with you, and that you would be able to produce collaboration and independently confirmed stats.
Did you read that one by the guy that thinks you can stand up to infectious diseases with rudimentary sanitation and homeopathy? I'm sorry but...HAR HAR HAR!!!!

If common sense won't cut it for ya, and elementary science is not allowed - I will concede the argument to you and gladly be done with it! In response to your low estimation of my debate abilities, I think it pertinent to my defense that I do not win arguments with idiots or women either!

Immunize your kids, boys. Look after yourselves. What you don't know CAN hurt you!

Anonymous kfg September 17, 2014 12:12 PM  

"What you don't know CAN hurt you!"

Exactly.

Anonymous DKViking September 17, 2014 12:12 PM  

I wonder why the cases of measles are so low? The mercy of God?

Anonymous DavidK September 17, 2014 12:13 PM  

Hospitals? What hospitals? Have you ever been to equatorial Africa?

Never been there. The media refers to hospitals in Liberia and Sierra Leone, and I know those places aren't even close in quality to the worst hospitals in the USA. But what should I call them? Warehouses with mats? Glenn Filthies?

Anonymous Noah B. September 17, 2014 12:16 PM  

"Vox, all I can say is that the science has been around for 100 years."

Quite the contrary, there is no science on the issue -- at least, none that's publicly available. The drug companies made sure of that. Actual studies would be unethical, they tell us with straight faces.

Anonymous VD September 17, 2014 12:19 PM  

Vox, all I can say is that the science has been around for 100 years. People that do this for a living will line up against you 100 deep.

Of course they will. And everyone who works on Wall Street will tell you that keeping the Dow Jones index moving upward is good for the economy.

You're not only wrong, Glen, but you're observably an inept individual who can't even successfully defend his own position.

You're exactly like a global warming cretin appealing to "the science is settled". Well, it isn't, because if it was, then you could simply cite the relevant scientific papers. And, obviously, you can't.

The amusing thing is that it is true believers like you that create new skeptics every time you try to argue.

Anonymous Noah B. September 17, 2014 12:22 PM  

"What you don't know CAN hurt you!"

And what you don't know just happens to include the contents of your vaccine.

Anonymous Josh September 17, 2014 12:24 PM  

Did you read that one by the guy that thinks you can stand up to infectious diseases with rudimentary sanitation and homeopathy? I'm sorry but...HAR HAR HAR!!!!

Actually when they finally got idiot surgeons to wash their hands between procedures is when hospitals finally stopped killing people.

Moron.

Anonymous Noah B. September 17, 2014 12:25 PM  

Hate to nitpick Josh but hospitals still kill an awful lot of people.

Anonymous Cash September 17, 2014 12:27 PM  

Wait..... Filthie is a woman?

Anonymous Wendy September 17, 2014 12:28 PM  

Did you read that one by the guy that thinks you can stand up to infectious diseases with rudimentary sanitation and homeopathy? I'm sorry but...HAR HAR HAR!!!!

I'm confused. Are you saying that TP and closed sewers won't do anything to reduce the number of infectious diseases (many of which are spread in feces)?

Blogger Cataline Sergius September 17, 2014 12:32 PM  

Are you really dumb enough to say it looks like anything on the basis of precisely zero substantive evidence.

UPDATE: After finally having reviewed some footage, my best bet on the cause of death is Anaphylaxis. Which in this case, is quite a puzzler.

I'll let you know turns up.

Blogger Chris Ritchie September 17, 2014 12:32 PM  

Glenn is just big-brained. He can eat sh*t and tell himself it's candy. See the movie, Defending Your Life, for the reference.

Blogger Chris Ritchie September 17, 2014 12:33 PM  

Of course, it's actually CROW he's eating since he can't produce the double-blind "because science" studies to support his mandatory for the good of the herd vaccine views.

Anonymous Josh September 17, 2014 12:34 PM  

Hate to nitpick Josh but hospitals still kill an awful lot of people.

I should have clarified, before hand washing you had a higher risk of dying in a hospital than just doing nothing

Anonymous Statists are so dull September 17, 2014 12:43 PM  

@Glen Filthie
Vaccines can stop infected people from dying of rabies therefore we need to vaccinate everyone against measles - sorry it doesn't follow. I used to be responsible for massaging the figures, playing on the goodwill the people have for vaccines to help bring in more and more products.

Even the vaccine manufacturers will tell you that clean drinking water is more effective in preventing disease but that doesn't get billions (yes billions) of public money into the private sector, does it?

No one is saying that some vaccines are not effective in some situations (I would never turn down rabies post-exposure prophylaxis, for example) but the extrapolation that all vaccines are good all the time is a marketing ploy which abuses the gullibility/ faith of the consumers.

Sorry Glen, but people like you simply guarantee of marketeers bonuses and assure the continuation of the abuse of public trust.

Remember, compulsory "cervical cancer" vaccines for boys is coming - makes as much sense as STD vaccines (hep B) for babies doesn't it?

Anonymous TheVillageIdiot(Ret.) September 17, 2014 12:58 PM  

My Body...My Choice.

DannyR

Anonymous Anonymous September 17, 2014 1:00 PM  

Look forward to compulsory Gardasil (you know, the cervical cancer vaccine) for your boys soon.

Megan Mcardle wrote a column like this awhile back (and it terms of MSM she's relatively sane). It's been awhile but I remember her mostly libertarian commenters being for it so it's already happening.

Blogger Glen Filthie September 17, 2014 1:02 PM  

You're turd polishing, Vox. Any number of economists will scream bloody murder about what is happening on Wall Street and if you correctly understood the situation there - you would be burning politicians at the stake and not the bankers.

It is unfortunate that you picked warble gloaming as a banana to compare to my orange; the fact is that in this debate you are on the side of the warmers. They cannot produce CONSISTENT, repeatable data either, and the assumptions they have made are fraught with error or are flat out wrong.

You can 'prove' anything you want to stupid people by picking and choosing your stats, cooking your books and loading your studies. I get it. Prove to me that you aren't doing that and THEN maybe we can debate.

Blogger Chris Ritchie September 17, 2014 1:06 PM  

Here's another link for the file:

http://www.vaccinationinformationnetwork.com/an-interview-with-dr-archie-kalokerinos-md/

Anonymous kfg September 17, 2014 1:08 PM  

"Prove to me that you aren't doing that . . ."

What if his point was that he can?

Anonymous Statists are so dull September 17, 2014 1:10 PM  

Glen Filthie: You can 'prove' anything you want to stupid people by picking and choosing your stats, cooking your books and loading your studies.

That sounds exactly like my job description at the vaccine manufacturers. Oh, you missed writing the protocol and choosing the end points.

Blogger Jeremy Johnson September 17, 2014 1:18 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Statists are so dull September 17, 2014 1:21 PM  

On, and of course "choosing whether or not to publish the results" but that's taken for granted in pharma.

Anonymous VD September 17, 2014 1:22 PM  

You're turd polishing, Vox. Any number of economists will scream bloody murder about what is happening on Wall Street and if you correctly understood the situation there - you would be burning politicians at the stake and not the bankers.

You have three choices, Glen. A) Either cite the science that supposedly supports your opinion, B) admit that you can't provide any scientific reference to support your statements and recant them, or C) Go away and don't come back.

I note that this is the second time you've tried to pull this ignorant bullshit here on this topic. Now either back up your words for once, recant them, or go away.

Anonymous VD September 17, 2014 1:24 PM  

the fact is that in this debate you are on the side of the warmers. They cannot produce CONSISTENT, repeatable data either, and the assumptions they have made are fraught with error or are flat out wrong.

No, you fucking moron, YOU are the one who is appealing to nonexistent "settled science". I swear, I'm tempted to spam you for sheer idiocy.

There is no difference between the vaccine true believer and the global warming true believer. Both appeal to nonexistent science and contorted history.

Blogger Shimshon September 17, 2014 1:31 PM  

Vox, I can tell you how pro-vaxxers responded in my own "debate" with them. They blamed it on the UN and said it was due to their immunity.

These people, and there are a bunch of them, are totally ineducable.

One of them claimed "hundreds" of deaths in multiple measles outbreaks among so-called "ultra-orthodox" Jews (many subgroups which are quite lax on the subject, if not outright anti-vax).

Even after showing him wrong (the several outbreak reports he provided as proof showed no deaths and a few minor hospitalizations for hundreds of infected) he couldn't even be bother to retract or apologize.

Not one could even concede that perhaps improve hygiene has something to do with both the reduced incidence and virulence of once dreaded diseases like measles.

They are quite literally a bunch of highly educated morons.

Anonymous Gecko September 17, 2014 1:35 PM  

"Everyone knows Jenny is an alien."
"What? Prove it."
"No, YOU prove that she ISN'T, stupid!"

Blogger Chris Ritchie September 17, 2014 1:42 PM  

Gecko sums it up perfectly. It's infuriating. I'd say let them be, but this is the same crowd that's convinced they need to enforce mandatory vaccinations on my family. We have to fight them and keep mercilessly demolishing their arguments or they'll be trying to put us in jail as they did in London in the 19th century when some families refused the observably deadly and ineffective smallpox vaccine.

Blogger FALPhil September 17, 2014 1:43 PM  

DavidK wrote:
Never been there. The media refers to hospitals in Liberia and Sierra Leone, and I know those places aren't even close in quality to the worst hospitals in the USA. But what should I call them? Warehouses with mats? Glenn Filthies?


For what few institutions go by the name "hospital", the best term I can think of to call them would be "lick and a promise". There are reasons they call Africa "the dark continent", and it has nothing to do with the color of the skin of the majority inhabitants.

Personally, I don't think vaccines hold any hope for Africa. Education around hygiene and superstition would probably have a greater effect. I have been around the world several times, only missing Antarctica and Australia in the process, and Africa is easily the filthiest place in the world. There are all sorts of diseases that are rampant in Africa that do not occur anywhere close to the same levels in most other parts of the world.

Anonymous rho September 17, 2014 1:44 PM  

I don't know about settled science, but I checked into the MMR vaccine once. As far as I know, it's the only vaccine you get for rubella.

Rubella is a pretty innocuous disease, but contracting it while pregnant can have severe repercussions--which is why I was looking into it. Not that long ago, congenital rubella syndrome contributed to quite a lot of medical problems, including spontaneous abortion and a smorgasbord of birth defects. CRS now effects something like 10 babies a year in the US.

That's where so-called "herd immunity" comes into play. Women get the MMR vaccine before they get pregnant, children get it so they don't pass on rubella to their pregnant mothers or aunts or teachers.

Of course, there isn't zero risk associated with the MMR. Maybe it does cause autism in some cases. CRS is pretty bad, too. Weigh the risks for yourself. We got the vaccine.

Anonymous Anonymous September 17, 2014 1:46 PM  

The problem is the most relevant vaccine studies are locked up and will never see the light of day. A company completes its IND, gets an NDA and starts its work. Studies are performed. Uh-oh. Screwed that one up. Fire the study director and fine-tune the protocol. Let's do this one again. Does anybody think that negative data will ever see the light of day?

Years later the FDA gets a look at ONLY the selected studies that reflect the data the manufacturer wants presented. Only insiders get to see the raw data. I know the guy that was hired by Donald Rumsfeld back when he was the CEO of GD Searle to take care of the disaster that was the Aspartame submission. If I recall correctly it was something like 800 studies and the data was a mess. He created a new statistical test to normalize the data and got it to fly with the FDA. He got paid over a million to perform his magic.

I will never forget sitting with him at a SOT convention back in the early 90's. I was drinking a gin and tonic, he had a double scotch and was smoking a cigarette. A mutual acquaintance walked up with a large diet coke and the good doctor came unglued. "Don't drink that shit! I've seen the raw data and I'm telling you, don't touch that stuff!" We all knew the subject was aspartame.

I have never willingly ingested aspartame again and the only vaccine I ever allowed my children to have was for tetanus.

Anonymous Cranberry September 17, 2014 2:05 PM  

Eh, my Ped finger-wagged me the other day when I refused the MMR (again) for my 2 yo son. He's already got a delicate constitution, not quite sickly but irritable and slow to gain weight, otherwise developing fine.

He got his Hep vaccine (not in hospital) and the first round of shots they give them at, 6 or nine months? And suddenly all of his problems start. So no more shots until he's older and his specialists determine if he has celiac or some other problem and starts to gain weight and get taller - on both sides, people are fairly tall and muscular. There is something amiss, and he can't eat a lot of foods because of dire allergies. All of this noted after he got his shots...

His Ped told me that Cali and NY had measles outbreaks and people died from measles, and it was due to people vaccinating their kids. I looked up the stats, and 17% of the cases were of people who'd had the vaccine. He mistakenly made non-vaxxed kids sound like the vector, when it was immigrants and missionaries to the Philippines who brought it here.

Anyway, if the vaccine was tainted, why did the poison affect only some of the people, and not all of them? Seems like tainted vaccines would kill more than a handful of patients; bad vax reactions could account for this.

Anonymous Gara September 17, 2014 2:05 PM  

In any event, the possibility that vaccines will be tampered with is a factor that has to be taken into account if you are going to argue for or against the net benefit of vaccines.

This possibility can be used to argue against pretty much everything really, from medical prescription drugs to state water supplies.

Maybe the next time someone dies from food poisoning in some third world country we are going to see the likes of Vox arguing against food...

Question: why is deliberate murder an argument against vaccination?

Whats even more hilarious is that deliberate murder is a perfect argument against vaccination but not against assault rifles. Right wing logic at its finest.

Anonymous Cranberry September 17, 2014 2:06 PM  

due to people not vaccinating their kids...

Anonymous Cash September 17, 2014 2:19 PM  

"Whats even more hilarious is that deliberate murder is a perfect argument against vaccination but not against assault rifles. Right wing logic at its finest."

No one is arguing that on the vaxx-sceptic. Everything else you said is thus BS.

Anonymous Earl September 17, 2014 2:27 PM  

Gara, what is the difference between food, water, and vaccines? Could it be that unlike food and water, vaccines are being increasingly pushed on people by government force? Could it be that without vaccines your still stand a very good chance of living, while without food and water you stand a 100% of dying? Could it be that you are in many instances able to produce your own food and water if you are unsure as to its contents?

Could it be that you are stupid? A troll?

Anonymous Dr. Feelbad September 17, 2014 2:34 PM  

Could it be that you are stupid? A troll?

Both?

Anonymous Giraffe September 17, 2014 2:38 PM  

I doesn't seem fair to compare measles deaths in the US to vaccine deaths on Syria. How many measles deaths in Syria?

Wikipedia: In 2011, the WHO estimated that there were about 158,000 deaths caused by measles. This is down from 630,000 deaths in 1990. In developed countries, death occurs in 1 to 2 cases out of every 1,000 (0.1% - 0.2%)

Blogger Glen Filthie September 17, 2014 2:39 PM  

Well Vox I ain't here to educate you or piss you off. If you want to stake your POV on articles appearing in a British tabloid that's your business.

It's been an interesting discussion all the same! ;)

Anonymous Gara September 17, 2014 2:42 PM  

Could it be that without vaccines your still stand a very good chance of living

If you truly stand a very good chance of living, thats in part because everyone around is vaccinated (assuming we are talking about the first world here). Do you think the situation would not be different if there were no vaccines at all?

Could it be that you are in many instances able to produce your own food and water if you are unsure as to its contents?

You know very well that producing your own food is not realistic for the vast, vast majority of people. Yeah, you just have to own the land and find some time to grow all that food on top of taking care of your job, family, etc. Good luck with that.

Anonymous takin' a look September 17, 2014 2:45 PM  

Funny that Glen Filthie would bring up HIV/AIDS. Here is the expert opinion of Luc Montagnier on the subject. He only won a little thing called the Nobel Prize for his 15+ years of work on the issue.

"Dr. Luc Montagnier: “We can be exposed to HIV many times without being chronically infected. Our immune system will get rid of the virus within a few weeks, if you have a good immune system.”

Interviewer (Brent Leung): If you have a good immune system, then your body can naturally get rid of HIV?

Dr. Luc Montagnier: Yes.

Interviewer: If you take a poor African, who’s been infected and you build up their immune system, is it possible for them to also naturally get rid of it?

Dr. Luc Montagnier: I would think so.

Interviewer: That’s an important…

Dr. Luc Montagnier: It’s important knowledge which is completely neglected. People always think of drugs and vaccine.

Interviewer: There is no money in nutrition, right?

Dr. Luc Montagnier: There is no profit, yes."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQoNW7lOnT4

Anonymous Anonymous September 17, 2014 2:46 PM  

I did. My son has been vaccinated against everything you can think of and then some. He is currently the biggest, strongest, healthiest kid in his class and exceeds the intellectual norms for his age by a vast margin. He literally does not get sick. His body even rejected MRSA. Meanwhile, his best friend from church, who is a year older than him and has never received so much as a molecule of Pasteur's Finest, is a scrawny little runt that is always sick with something. Thanks, Hippie Mom!

I respect our host, but on this issue he is wrong. I believe in Better Living Through Chemistry, and, if you don't, you are wrong as well. And that's okay. I'm not here to sell anybody on vaccination. I'm here to proclaim its success, at least in my experience.

Blogger Cataline Sergius September 17, 2014 2:47 PM  

Whats even more hilarious is that deliberate murder is a perfect argument against vaccination but not against assault rifles. Right wing logic at its finest.

We used to get a more intelligent class of troll around here. What happened to the Civil Servant? Or Castaigne?

Anonymous Cash September 17, 2014 3:07 PM  

Shibes do you even know how stupid you sound?

"here Shibes Jr, eat your MMR so you can be big and strong."

Anonymous VD September 17, 2014 3:11 PM  

His Ped told me that Cali and NY had measles outbreaks and people died from measles

He lied. No one died.

Anonymous patrick kelly September 17, 2014 3:24 PM  

@GF

What you are calling settled science it anecdotal observed correlation rather than verified, documented, strenuous empirical demonstration of causation. Do you understand the difference? You seem to re: climate change, but not so much with other sacred cows of pop culture.

Anonymous Shibes Meadow September 17, 2014 3:26 PM  

Cash: Your opinion has been noted. Thank you for your comment.

Anonymous patrick kelly September 17, 2014 3:27 PM  

"What happened to the Civil Servant?"

Similar behavior as GF, but not as entertaining.......

Anonymous wEz September 17, 2014 3:44 PM  

Yes it has been, Glen. Grabbing some popcorn and watching you get destroyed was worth the price of admission today. Thank you come again.

Anonymous The Lion September 17, 2014 3:51 PM  

Meanwhile, his best friend from church, who is a year older than him and has never received so much as a molecule of Pasteur's Finest, is a scrawny little runt that is always sick with something. Thanks, Hippie Mom!

Is it a case of sickly-because-no-vaccines, or no-vaccines-because-sickly?

My daughter was born without a developed right ventricle in her heart. Nonetheless, she was a healthy eight pounds and some 20 inches long or so, and now at four years old she is tall, energetic, outgoing, and a natural actor. Her best friend is also four, but she's short, scrawny, and stutters a lot. You know why? She has a completely normal heart.

Tricuspid atresia clearly produces bigger, smarter, healthier people that normal hearts. If you don't believe it, you're wrong. Because miniscule sample size.

Anonymous DKViking September 17, 2014 4:00 PM  

Wal-Mart, McDonalds and Nestle will be surprised to learn that there is no money in nutrition.

Blogger Cee September 17, 2014 4:14 PM  

Poultices of molds

You do know where penicillin comes from, right?

Just checking.

Anonymous kfg September 17, 2014 4:21 PM  

"Maybe the next time someone dies from food poisoning in some third world country we are going to see the likes of Vox arguing against food..."

The government does that. Personally I advise being careful about what you put in your mouth. If it looks like cardboard in cardboard I would avoid it. YMMV.

" . . .not against assault rifles."

I would argue that you shouldn't volunteer to get a shot from one. Equation balanced.

" . . .you just have to own the land and find some time to grow all that food on top of taking care of your job. . ."

My grandfather raised my mother on food he had grown. He didn't need a job to take care of as well, as that was his job, which also paid for the land. My grandmother did more than half the looking after the kids, as that was her job.

You may wish some other job, and you are free to make that choice, but bear in mind that you may need to take some extra precautions about what you put in your mouth to mitigate the risks.

Anonymous kfg September 17, 2014 4:32 PM  

"Wal-Mart, McDonalds and Nestle will be surprised to learn that there is no money in nutrition."

As a corollary to my above, just because you consume it does not imply it is nutrition.

There is certainly money in consumables, but very little profit and thus very high risk, as nutrition is fungible. That's why there is so much branding in the foods industry, to give the appearance of uniqueness.

Wal-Mart, McDonald's and Nestle play that game very well.

Anonymous Shibes Meadow September 17, 2014 4:35 PM  

Lion: Your flawless logic has slain me. From now on I will ensure my children are left completely vulnerable to disease by failing to vaccinate them. Thank you for showing me the true path.

Anonymous kfg September 17, 2014 4:39 PM  

Shibes: Were your children completely vulnerable to disease before they had been vaccinated the odds are they would have been dead before they had lived long enough to be vaccinated.

Anonymous Shibes Meadow September 17, 2014 4:47 PM  

kfg: Thank you for convincing me of the senselessness of vaccination for my children. I now realize that by preventing them from contracting diphtheria I was engaging in a form of child abuse. I now see that by vaccinating my son I was in reality sentencing him to a lifetime of autism. (Even though the autism hasn't kicked in yet, I still feel guilty in advance.) Please keep me up to date on the latest advances in medical science.

Anonymous The Lion September 17, 2014 4:51 PM  

Lion: Your flawless logic has slain me. From now on I will ensure my children are left completely vulnerable to disease by failing to vaccinate them. Thank you for showing me the true path.

More a demonstration that your anecdote is useless in the present discussion, but you know that and are trying to play wise-guy with a strawman instead of owning up to it. Enjoy your dishonesty.

Anonymous The Lion September 17, 2014 4:54 PM  

kfg: Thank you for convincing me of the senselessness of vaccination for my children.

Your thumbs are going to be filthy with all that earwax you're sticking 'em in. But at least you can't hear us, right?

Blogger rycamor September 17, 2014 4:57 PM  

Shibes Meadow September 17, 2014 2:46 PM

I respect our host, but on this issue he is wrong. I believe in Better Living Through Chemistry, and, if you don't, you are wrong as well. And that's okay. I'm not here to sell anybody on vaccination. I'm here to proclaim its success, at least in my experience.


If you understood the arguments pro and con vaccines, you would understand why "at least in my experience" completely invalidates the rest of your argument. All of this stuff is a question of statistics. There are plenty of people surviving direct exposure to Ebola. A single person's experience in that case is not at all the question, but rather the weighed risks.

Blogger rycamor September 17, 2014 5:07 PM  

Shibes Meadow September 17, 2014 4:35 PM
Lion: Your flawless logic has slain me. From now on I will ensure my children are left completely vulnerable to disease by failing to vaccinate them. Thank you for showing me the true path.


Completely vulnerable? So little things like clean air and water, sun, good nutrition, exercise, sanitary conditions... all those mean nothing? Even an halfway intelligent vaccine proponent would not put up such a ridiculous strawman.

Anonymous Anonymous September 17, 2014 5:18 PM  

Rycamor: I am having the vaccines centrifuged from my childrens' blood even as I type. Thank you for opening my eyes to the evils of Salk and Pasteur.

Blogger rycamor September 17, 2014 5:27 PM  

Shibes...

Falling back on this sort of ridicule doesn't make your case look stronger. I'm not even a hard anti-vaxxer, just a cautious doubter. But the more rabid the argument on the other side, the more I see this as some sort of serious psychological problem than anything else.

Why can't you just admit that... yes, your experience was purely anecdotal, thus not an argument, and then proceed to produce a real argument? I would be happy to give it the attention it deserves.

Anonymous kfg September 17, 2014 5:29 PM  

Shibes: "Thank you for convincing me of the senselessness of vaccination for my children."

If I believed I had done anything of the kind I would be truly upset, but then I don't expect you to understand the abstract concept behind those words any more than you have demonstrated an ability to understand the abstract concepts behind the words that have come before.

Anonymous Sarcophilus September 17, 2014 5:39 PM  

Pakistanis have learned to kill vaccinators on sight

Polio might be a problem, but what are the vaccines really?

Then there's the Philippines where they only vaccinated women

Anonymous Anonymous September 17, 2014 5:47 PM  

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Anonymous Anonymous September 17, 2014 5:53 PM  

Rycamor: did you not understand me when I said that I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything? I'm not trying to make my case stronger. I don't have a case. I'm not engaging in argument. I don't care if others decide to vaccinate their children. If you think vaccines are dangerous, great. Don't have your children vaccinated.

Some people believe in chemtrails, and will bang on forever, citing "proof " after "proof" that somebody is spraying something on us from on high. I have examined these "proofs" and have not found them to be convincing. That being said, I don't waste my time or theirs making a counter-case. If you think chemtrails are real, then I respect your judgment, although I do not agree with it. The same applies to the vaccine controversy. I long ago examined the evidence offered to support the claim that vaccinations are harmful. I judged the evidence to be inconclusive. Obviously, you came to a different conclusion. I respect that conclusion, although I don't agree with it. I don't expect the same courtesy in return, of course -- this is the internet, after all -- but I must admit I have a bit of fun mocking those who fail to reciprocate.

I appreciate your concern for the well-being of the Kinder, but having analyzed the arguments pro and con I have concluded that the risks associated with vaccination are outweighed by the benefits of same.

Anonymous The Lion September 17, 2014 6:12 PM  

I don't have a case. I'm not engaging in argument.

You're just engaged in drive-by poo-flinging. Gotcha. Monkey on, you crazy monkey diamond!

Anonymous DKViking September 17, 2014 6:16 PM  

... "symptoms were a gradual slowdown in the heart rate as the infants turned blue" - that doesn't sound like autism. It is autism that is caused by vaccinations or is it just anything bad?

Anonymous Shibes Meadow September 17, 2014 6:23 PM  

Shibesfucius points out: poo flung in neighbor's face often effective means to cause opening of his eyes.

Anonymous DKViking September 17, 2014 6:28 PM  

Vaccinations are pretty bad, no doubt, but not as bad as handshakes.

http://www.steynonline.com/6376/the-lower-regions-of-upper-volta

Disappearing penissses, what do you handshakers say to that?

Anonymous FP September 17, 2014 6:37 PM  

Saw this on market-ticker:

http://skeptoid.com/blog/2014/09/12/this-clinical-trial-went-wrong/

Settled unimpeachable science! For asthma sufferers.

Anonymous rho September 17, 2014 7:11 PM  

I'm not even a hard anti-vaxxer, just a cautious doubter. But the more rabid the argument on the other side, the more I see this as some sort of serious psychological problem than anything else.

Have you read many anti-vaccine posts? They are quite rabid. In this thread vaccines are flatly described as poison, and pro-vaccine advocates as morons.

As for anecdotes, there are many on the anti-vaccine side offered as evidence. Cranberry presented one in this thread. I hope you make the same "anecdotes are not data" argument to both sides.

If you want to see something that argues in favor of vaccines, read my post above regarding rubella. Practically nobody dies of rubella, but it has second-order effects on fetal health and development. Is the success there due entirely to vaccines? Probably not, but it's not all due to hand washing and Purelle either. In fact, since one of the primary arguments made here is that immigrants are a major--if not leading--infection vector, considering the huge waves of immigrants coming into this country since the '60s, the low disease rates show some degree of success for enforced vaccinations just on the face of it.

Anonymous beerme September 17, 2014 7:47 PM  

He got his Hep vaccine (not in hospital) and the first round of shots they give them at, 6 or nine months? And suddenly all of his problems start. So no more shots until he's older and his specialists determine if he has celiac or some other problem and starts to gain weight and get taller - on both sides, people are fairly tall and muscular. There is something amiss, and he can't eat a lot of foods because of dire allergies. All of this noted after he got his shots...
Look into resistant starches. Combined with soil based probiotics, they can do amazing things for gut health.

Anonymous VD September 17, 2014 8:22 PM  

I long ago examined the evidence offered to support the claim that vaccinations are harmful. I judged the evidence to be inconclusive.

You examined the wrong evidence. You should have examined the evidence offered to support the claim that vaccines are a) safe, and b) effective.

Anonymous TMQ Fanboy September 17, 2014 8:37 PM  

The most likely case is that this wasn't "murder" or "bad vaccines" but a tragic error on the part of poorly trained workers. This account from the Grey Lady provides the crucial account:
Another Syrian physician in the affected area, Mohammad Hamadi, the secretary of a group called the Free Doctors Union, said medics who diluted the vaccine might have mixed it with Atracurium, a muscle relaxant used in surgery. Dr. Hamadi said the Atracurium bottles looked similar to the bottles of vaccine diluent. “We are investigating if it’s a mistake by the medical crew or a criminal act,” he said.

The Syrian American Medical Society, which organizes medical missions to Syria and runs a hospital in Idlib, said recipients of the bad vaccine began displaying symptoms within minutes, including tightness of breath, slowed heart rate, wheezing and inflammation of the larynx.

That is a fairly textbook description of curare poisoning. Given the presentation of the patients and the known factor of the Atracurium, this is curare toxicity until proven otherwise. Whether or not the measles vaccine is inherently dangerous, no one has claimed harm in this fashion before.

Anonymous MendoScot September 17, 2014 9:41 PM  

The amusing part in all this, is that the defenders of multinational pharmaceutical companies who have been posting here clearly don't understand the difference between immunization, inoculation and vaccination.

Not surprising, since Wikepedia describes Jenner (not Pasteur, eedjits) as the inventor of the vaccine, whereas his career was dedicated to - as GF put it above - the equivalent of smearing shit on open wounds. Don't look it up unless you have a strong stomach.

What worries me is the professional scuttlebutt that vaccines are falling in effectiveness across the board, just as if they had been abused as happened with antibiotics - over-prescribed and poorly controlled. Worse, as I linked above, the vaccines that are most related to problems are those that carry specific adjuvants - precisely what the industry is proposing to increase in order to recover the declining response.

Blogger Glen Filthie September 17, 2014 9:52 PM  

"Yes it has been, Glen. Grabbing some popcorn and watching you get destroyed was worth the price of admission today. Thank you come again."
-----------------------------------------

My pleasure. "Destroyed," was I? HAR HAR HAR!

Thanks for letting me know.

Anonymous MendoScot September 17, 2014 9:52 PM  

That is a fairly textbook description of curare poisoning. Given the presentation of the patients and the known factor of the Atracurium, this is curare toxicity until proven otherwise.

Oh gosh! Wikepedia raises it's exspurt head again.

Since you like it here is Wikis description of anaphylactic shock:

Six vaccines (MMR, varicella, influenza, hepatitis B, tetanus, meningococcal) are recognized as a cause for anaphylaxis, and the HPV may cause anaphylaxis as well.

If you anything about the incompetence of journalists, you might recognize that cyanide poisoning might be nothing more than a misunderstanding of cyanosis - the peripheral blueing of tissues that follows cardio-respiratory insufficiency.

As occurs in anaphylactic shock.

Anonymous MendoScot September 17, 2014 9:59 PM  

Meh, cyanide poisoning was the original report - curare...

..Amazonian frogs are not common in Syria.

Anonymous TMQ Fanboy September 17, 2014 10:07 PM  

...Atracurium...

Anonymous MendoScot September 17, 2014 10:25 PM  

...cos you suspect that they are deliberately poisoning the people they went to help?

As opposed to the known side-effects of vaccinations, particularly within specific haplotypes?

Anonymous Anonymous September 17, 2014 10:30 PM  

I wonder how Mr. Filth things tactics of posturing and dogmatism will carry weight in a place like this?

There must be some form of 'how modernism ruins minds' lesson in the overall body of his failure to make an actual point and total fear of actual data and discussion. Really, there must.

Blogger rycamor September 17, 2014 10:42 PM  

VD September 17, 2014 8:22 PM
I long ago examined the evidence offered to support the claim that vaccinations are harmful. I judged the evidence to be inconclusive.

You examined the wrong evidence. You should have examined the evidence offered to support the claim that vaccines are a) safe, and b) effective.


Exactly. The appropriate weighing of risks is what the pro-vaxxers just don't seem to grasp.

On the one hand we have 1. the likelihood of catching some disease, and 2. the likelihood of that disease causing death or permanent damage. Both of those should be measured into the equation, not just the first.

On the other hand we have 1. likelihood of the vaccine IN ITS IDEAL STATE to be harmful, 2. potential for vaccine contamination or even intentional poisoning, and 3. likelihood that the vaccine won't even protect against the disease for which it is intended.

Now my thinking is if I can ameliorate the top set of dangers to be of lower probability than the bottom set, I would obviously want the top set, because vaccines still represent something new in human experience (historically speaking), ergo we do not yet know if all risks are visible. Also, given that the vaccine companies don't really have skin in the game (in fact they pretty much have negative skin in the game), there is a very good chance that the risks are being misrepresented to us.

So anyone purporting to "examine the science" without thinking in these terms is really not judging the problem accurately. Most just approach it emotionally and then look for some supporting "research" to make them feel better.

Anonymous bw September 17, 2014 11:06 PM  

HRSA - National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program
Authorizing Legislation (PDF- 497 KB) Vaccine Injury Compensation Trust Fund. The Vaccine Injury Compensation Trust Fund provides funding for the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program to compensate vaccine-related injury or death claims for covered vaccines administered on or after...

Anonymous Gen Patton September 17, 2014 11:10 PM  

None of this is really up for argument, it is all just plain common sense and respect for the common good. Every effort is made to ensure your safety, there is absolutely no need to panic and over react.
It's unmanly, fellas...just sayin'.


You have no idea what you're saying, pussy.
Only a feminine male would advocate believing in Government and its recommendations, considering the last century.
Your brilliant, historical thoughts, pussy?

Blogger rycamor September 17, 2014 11:30 PM  

rho September 17, 2014 7:11 PM
If you want to see something that argues in favor of vaccines, read my post above regarding rubella.

I'm not so sure I see the potential upside being worth the risks. But, at least you're making somewhat of a reasoned argument, vs 95% of the pro-vax people I see in these discussions. Most of them make a few snarky jabs, and then prance off declaring themselves victorious, Scalzi-style.

As Vox has said in the past, the nature and style of the argument being made tends to provide insight about where the substance (or lack thereof) resides. If the arguments are all ridicule, hand-waving, appeals to authority, fear-mongering, and such, then I take it as a good bet that person has nothing useful to teach me.

Anonymous Anonymous September 17, 2014 11:39 PM  

"...under a UN-sponsored programme in the rebel-held north of Syria.'

UN sponsored? Fuck-up guaranteed.

- Mobutu

Blogger Expendable Faceless Minion September 18, 2014 12:35 AM  

I'm on the pro-vaccination side, but if I somehow found myself in Syria, and someone said:

"I'm from the UN and I'm going to inject you with..."

I'd already be sprinting away.

Anonymous Anonymous September 18, 2014 12:48 AM  

EFM, especially if you were a child. The UN guy might not be talking about the syringe type of injection.

Anonymous rho September 18, 2014 12:55 AM  

rycamor:
I'm not so sure I see the potential upside being worth the risks.

I'm pretty fuzzy on the risks of the MMR vaccine. There are horrible anecdotes, sure, but it's also a widely administered vaccine. It's been in service for quite a while, too, if not in precisely the same form. There is a danger, as with anything involving medicine, but it is pretty small to the best that I can determine.

Conversely, there's practically zero risk of congenital rubella syndrome, since there's practically zero risk of rubella. It's worth noting that the zero rubella risk is at least in part due to aggressive vaccination efforts.

(Interestingly, the stridency of the anti-vaccine advocates had some impact on my decision making. If people are rejecting vaccines out of hand, and an outbreak occurs, what is my family's risk exposure?)

As it happens, I have a family situation that has me researching flu vaccinations. None of us have received flu vaccinations before, but now we're being encouraged to get them because of the aforementioned family situation. It's not easy, because I personally think the flu vaccine is airy guesswork in a white coat. But how big of a shitheel would I be if I didn't do something so simple that avoided a horrific outcome?

I think the pro- and anti-vaccine folks are too often like Auburn and Alabama fans. They absolutely hate each other, because that's where the fun is.

Anonymous rtp September 18, 2014 12:57 AM  

When the tide turns on this outrage people will be looking through history books for the most barbaric methods of execution they can find for the perpetrators.

Pharma companies "prove" that their concoctions are safe by taking a group of kids and getting the vaccine and taking another group and giving them a non-inert substance (eg a shot of aluminium or another vaccine or older vaccine etc). By doing this they injure and kill a sufficient number of children in the control group to ensure that their concoction looks relatively safe.

In short, they deliberately maim and kill children to ensure they can profit.

My vote for the appropriate method of execution: scaphism.

Anonymous rtp September 18, 2014 1:00 AM  

"If you want to see something that argues in favor of vaccines, read my post above regarding rubella."

Ever since the rubella vaccine the rate of congenital defects (such as blindness and deafness) in the US has *increased*.

No doubt the pro-vaxers will have a million and one excuses for this but the fact remains that the vaccine had no noticeable effect (at least not the expected one) on the very thing it was meant to reduce.

Anonymous rtp September 18, 2014 1:04 AM  

Oh, and while we are going down this road. The same is true for polio and the rates of the physically disabled, the same is true for diphtheria/pertussis and the number of kids hospitalised with respiratory infections. The same is true for Hep B and liver cancer rates.

There are absolutely *no* vaccine success stories. They simply change the name of the disease because the doctor doesn't like diagnosing the condition if the patient has been vaccinated. So polio is now diagnosed as Guillain Barre, transverse myelitis (by the way we are *more* likely to use ventilators today than in the time of the iron lung), coxsackie etc. Pertussis/diphtheria are called respiratory syncytial virus, strep throat, etc. Measles is called roseola/fifth disease etc. Smallpox is called monkey pox, severe chicken pox etc.

Anonymous rho September 18, 2014 1:13 AM  

scaphism

I had to Wikipedia that one up.

The intended victim was stripped naked and then firmly fastened within the interior space of two narrow rowing boats (or hollowed-out tree trunks) joined together one on top of the other with the head, hands and feet protruding. The condemned was forced to ingest milk and honey to the point of developing a severe bowel movement and diarrhea, and more honey would be poured on him to attract insects, with special attention devoted to the eyes, ears, mouth, genitals, and anus. In some cases, the executioner would mix milk and honey and pour that mixture all over the victim. He would then be left to float on a stagnant pond or be exposed to the sun. The defenseless individual's feces accumulated within the container... etc. and more in that vein. I suspect somebody learned a new word today.

There are some "pharma companies" that I buy needed products from. You can put me down on the "no scaphism" list for their chemists, researchers, marketers, executives and truck drivers.

Anonymous DKViking September 18, 2014 1:25 AM  

"the fact remains that the vaccine had no noticeable effect (at least not the expected one) on the very thing it was meant to reduce."
http://media.historyofvaccines.org/images/999991_540.jpg

Blogger Cee September 18, 2014 1:40 AM  

There are absolutely *no* vaccine success stories. They simply change the name of the disease because the doctor doesn't like diagnosing the condition if the patient has been vaccinated. So polio is now diagnosed as Guillain Barre, transverse myelitis (by the way we are *more* likely to use ventilators today than in the time of the iron lung), coxsackie etc. Pertussis/diphtheria are called respiratory syncytial virus, strep throat, etc. Measles is called roseola/fifth disease etc. Smallpox is called monkey pox, severe chicken pox etc.

Where are your data on this? I am interested in reading them.

Anonymous rho September 18, 2014 1:52 AM  

Sayeth Tiny Tim:
It is all about risk reduction. If I don't get the vaccine I won't get gullain barre and other negative health effects. I have reduced that risk to zero.

Time passes...

Sayeth rtp:
They simply change the name of the disease because the doctor doesn't like diagnosing the condition if the patient has been vaccinated. So polio is now diagnosed as Guillain Barre, transverse myelitis (by the way we are *more* likely to use ventilators today than in the time of the iron lung), coxsackie etc.

Some say vaccines cause Gullain Barre. Some say Guillain Barre is a made up disease.

Anonymous rtp September 18, 2014 2:19 AM  

DKviking. That graph is meaningless. When the vaccine was introduced doctors just stopped reporting measles (and they were instructed to do this) because they assumed that the vaccine prevented the disease. It was just a self-fulfilling prophecy. They called it roseola, fifth disease and other rash type diseases.

We *do not* have incidence data for diseases that are generally mild and transient because nobody has the slightest clue how many people who have a rash actually bother visiting (or used to visit) a doctor and how likely the doctor is to suspect a particular condition and report it.

Anonymous rtp September 18, 2014 2:22 AM  

"Some say vaccines cause Gullain Barre. Some say Guillain Barre is a made up disease."

I never said Guillain Barre was made up and there is nothing inconsistent with mine and the other comment (although I have no qualms about disagreeing with other non-vaxers - we are not the positive case so there is no requirement that we all agree).

I said that what we call GBS now (amongst other conditions) we used to practically always call polio. It was then and is now very often associated with vaccines. In the case of the polio of the 1950s it was due to the diphtheria/pertussis vaccine which became widely used in that time.

There are no doubt other causes too but vaccines were doubtless one of them.

Anonymous rtp September 18, 2014 2:24 AM  

"There are some "pharma companies" that I buy needed products from. You can put me down on the "no scaphism" list for their chemists, researchers, marketers, executives and truck drivers."

That's fine rho but how do you want to spin their method of 'proving' the safety of the concoctions?

Anonymous rtp September 18, 2014 2:32 AM  

"Where are your data on this? I am interested in reading them."

Unfortunately government agencies don't generally take down the data that proves all their actions to be a complete fraud. Roseola for example is not a notifiable disease so it is impossible to know how often children have (what we used to call) measles today compared to 40 years ago.

But where the data is available it is extremely damning.

For example, just one type of respiratory infection (RSV) is the case of 2-3 per cent of kids to be hospitalised in the US before they are five http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0804877. I think it fair to say that compares quite poorly with the equivalent from pertussis before the 1940s.

In the case of Hep B we can see that liver cancer rates have risen since the introduction of the vaccine http://www.cancer.org/cancer/livercancer/detailedguide/liver-cancer-what-is-key-statistics

For polio the WHO takes data for both polio caused acute flaccid paralysis and non-polio acute flaccid paralysis. And if you go to their figures for developing countries you can clearly see that AFP rates have skyrocketed but the doctors just refuse to diagnose it as polio (whereas before they *always* diagnosed it as polio)

http://apps.who.int/immunization_monitoring/en/diseases/poliomyelitis/case_count.cfm

And this is a much longer spiel on what happened with smallpox, but while it is definitely worth reading the others are more direct answers to your questions http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2010/02/26/smallpox-vaccine-origins-of-vaccine-madness/

Anonymous rtp September 18, 2014 2:37 AM  

And just to back my comment up about how the vaccines have had absolutely no discernible effect on the very thing they were intended for (ie reduce death, disability and future health costs).

In the US childhood disability rates have risen tenfold since 1950 according to census data (five fold for adults).

Healthcare expenditure has risen four fold as a per cent of GDP.

Life expectancy has risen, true, but at a slower rate than in the preceding decades and anybody can see here www.childhealthsafety.com/graphs that vaccinations had absolutely nothing to do with reduced mortality from diseases.

Anonymous DKViking September 18, 2014 3:17 AM  

It is really difficult to have an discussion when you just can make stuff up.

It would be nice to be able instruct people to do something and they would just do.Its so easy to do a massive cover up involving millions of doctors and other medical professionals world wide, just send out a message and it would be so.

I will not argue with people who thinks like this, its pointless, there is no fix for that, its not possible to reason with them.

Anonymous rho September 18, 2014 3:18 AM  

rtp provides plenty of argle, and no shortage of bargle.

Anonymous Cranberry September 18, 2014 6:13 AM  

On the one hand we have 1. the likelihood of catching some disease, and 2. the likelihood of that disease causing death or permanent damage. Both of those should be measured into the equation, not just the first.

This. I shared an anecdote, not data above. Doc said my son's reaction to his shots (sickly, weak, fatigue, low appetite for a week) were just coincidence, and his allergies have nothing to do with shots (I didn't say they did, he assumed that was my implication). Then he told me people were dying from measles, which I researched and as VD pointed out, is patently false. No one is dying from measles, and even previously vaccinated people are getting sick.

Then I quickly looked through the lay medical literature for symptoms of measles. I have no doubt it's an uncomfortable disease, with an itchy rash and sore throat and high fever. I know that it can settle in the brain and cause neurological problems, but that is for a minority of cases. Measles is one of those childhood illnesses that everyone seemed to get, and survived it with the typical care you give someone who has a virus: febrifuge, rest, bone broth with soft cooked meats and veggies, daily bathing and changing of clothes.

I always thought measles was one of those deadly diseases you ran from. I always though tetanus and rabies were 100% fatal too - but they aren't. There's a lot of scare propaganda going on, not any real education so people can weigh their own risk.

I'm of a mind that terrain matters more than pathogens. We need not be overly fastidious and risk the hygiene hypothesis doing us in, but our standards of cleanliness and having clean food and water are very high. I figure that has at least half as much to do with our battle against disease as any medicines or vaccinations.

Anonymous Stilicho September 18, 2014 8:28 AM  

Does anyone know of a good source discussing preferable vaccination schedules?

Anonymous Teenage Jail September 18, 2014 12:40 PM  

"I always thought measles was one of those deadly diseases you ran from. I always though tetanus and rabies were 100% fatal too - but they aren't. There's a lot of scare propaganda going on, not any real education so people can weigh their own risk."

Tetanus is apparently quite fatal without treatment, if not 100% (Wikipedia suggests more like 48%-73%). Rabies, according to everything I've read, is 100% fatal without some form of treatment (post-exposure prophylaxis being by far the best choice).

You're right about the perception people have (and I had) of measles compared to the reality, though three deaths in 1000 (what Wikipedia says was the US rate between 1987 and 2000) is still much higher than flu, chicken pox, etc. I would still vaccinate a child against measles, and possibly even chicken pox, among other reasons since there is no assurance now that they will get them as children, and these diseases are much worse for adults. That's why adults in the past always tried to make sure their children got those diseases, and the others that were once called diseases of childhood, since they knew how bad they could be for adults who weren't immune.

Anonymous rtp September 18, 2014 6:16 PM  

"It is really difficult to have an discussion when you just can make stuff up."

Go to the CDC manual for so-called vaccine preventable diseases for measles and it instructs doctors not to bother testing for measles if the patient is vaccinated.

"It would be nice to be able instruct people to do something and they would just do."

They don't need to instruct most doctors to do it because most doctors have that bias in the first place. You see, doctors *want to* believe their vaccines work - they would feel quite bad if they poisoned children for no apparent reason. So it logically follows that they would be biased against diagnosing that condition in a child that they have vaccinated. They might. But they will be inclined not to. The fact that the health agencies *promote* this bias just makes it that much worse but even if they actively suppressed it it wouldn't make the data reliable.

Do you not see the problem here? Let's say doctors believe that measles vaccine is 99 per cent effective. If they see a vaxed child with a rash then are they likely to think of measles? Of course not. And in a sense it is rational for them to think that way. The problem, you see, is that that 99 per cent efficacy figure comes from data collected from doctors' diagnoses!

That is what is known as a circular argument - a self-fulfilling prophecy.

"Its so easy to do a massive cover up involving millions of doctors and other medical professionals world wide, just send out a message and it would be so."

There are plenty of cover-ups involved in this criminal enterprise, but for the most part all the people with the power that we look up to and revere have an unbelievable vested interest in maintaining the status quo.

Like I say, when the populous wakes up to what has actually gone on (and it is a million times worse than what Vox thinks) there will be absolute carnage on the medical community. A mob act of vengeance such that no country has ever seen before.

"I will not argue with people who thinks like this, its pointless, there is no fix for that, its not possible to reason with them."

You don't need to. Just take the entire infant immunisation schedule adjusted for your body weight to prove, once and for all, these concoctions are safe.

It won't prove they work of course but it will mean they are merely pointless rather than catastrophic.

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