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Monday, October 06, 2014

Advantage: good guys

One of the big advantages of concealed carry is that the bad guys have absolutely no reason who is ready and able to gun them down from behind:
Two men were fatally shot by a customer after they attempted to rob a north Harris County bar early Saturday — the latest in a fury of shootings in Houston this week. Jenny O'Donnell, owner of EJ's Place, said four armed men came to her bar in the 16400 block of Kuykendall at Colwell, around 2:30 a.m.

O'Donnell, who was not there at the time of the incident, said a head bartender and waitress were closing up for the night when two men walked into the bar and demanded everyone get down on the floor. Two other men "lingered at the bar door," she said.

That's when a customer at the bar pulled his own gun and started shooting at the men, she said. The attempted robbers fired at least three rounds inside the bar, said O'Donnell.

"That man was a hero," said O'Donnell. "We could have had some bodies."

The men then turned around and ran out the door, O'Donnell said. One of the men died right outside the front door, while the other man died at the end of the bar's parking lot, she said.
It's interesting to observe that four robbers were involved and that still wasn't enough to guarantee a safe and successful robbery.  The more that people are armed, the more dangerous and difficult it becomes for criminals to accomplish anything from basic street muggings to full-fledged home invasions.

Of course, it will also tend to highlight the relative inability of the police to do the same. Which isn't actually a criticism of the police, it's merely reflective of the obvious fact that the police simply cannot be everywhere at once, whereas privately armed individuals can be.

As Instapundit says, "a pack, not a herd".

Labels:

106 Comments:

Anonymous Rolf October 06, 2014 1:25 AM  

Who was it who said I carry a gun because a cop doesn't fit into my pocket?
Doesn't make a difference, I guess, but it's true.

Blogger Bob Loblaw October 06, 2014 1:43 AM  

The customer wins a 1x4 shootout? Nice shootin', Tex.

I'm of two minds about this kind of thing. It's a shame to see two guys die over such a small amount of money, particularly since it doesn't seem like they were ready to use their guns. Most likely they'd have taken the money without hurting anyone and been run down by the cops within a week or so.

On the other hand, when you engage in armed robbery getting shot is an occupational hazard.

Blogger LibertyPortraits October 06, 2014 1:51 AM  

Don't start none won't be none. If only people with guns had the same mind of injustice when the authorities are the ones doing the thieving.

Blogger Drew October 06, 2014 1:53 AM  

It also provides a deterrent to would-be robbers. Most crimes are not committed out of purely irrational heated passion. They are calculated, which is why all the mass shootings (except one) were in gun-free zones.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus October 06, 2014 1:56 AM  

Everyone who will be called to jury duty can do their part by not evading duty and by protecting armed good samaritans from conviction on bogus charges.

Anonymous Difster October 06, 2014 2:01 AM  

The sick part is, the cops are going after the hero for having an gun in a bar illegally.

The patrons seem to be pretty tight lipped though. The guy is a regular and they haven't squealed on him.

Blogger Bob Loblaw October 06, 2014 2:03 AM  

I'm not sure they're going to need witnesses, what with the dead bodies and all.

Anonymous Will Best October 06, 2014 2:38 AM  

I'm not sure they're going to need witnesses, what with the dead bodies and all.

Without witness testimony, its pretty hard to make the case for unlawful possession. You are talking about matching ballistics, which is a bit overkill for going after somebody for what is probably a misdemeanor.

Anonymous zen0 October 06, 2014 3:26 AM  

@ Eric

I'm of two minds about this kind of thing. It's a shame to see two guys die over such a small amount of money, particularly since it doesn't seem like they were ready to use their guns.

So we have your guarantee on that?

Sew the wind, reap the whirlwind.

Anonymous krunchy October 06, 2014 3:29 AM  

Whenever there's a shootout that doesn't wind up with a couple of dead neocons, it's a waste of a good shootout.

Anonymous zen0 October 06, 2014 3:32 AM  

Its a reference to St. Arachne, Patron Saint of Seamstresses

Anonymous timefreak October 06, 2014 4:34 AM  

I wonder if more concealed guns will lead to more convenience store clerks as well as other people being gunned down from behind and then robbed. After all they could be carrying.

Blogger grendel October 06, 2014 5:11 AM  

Interesting that they targeted a state mandated victim disarmament zone and still got their comeuppance.

Blogger Bob Loblaw October 06, 2014 5:22 AM  

Sew the wind, reap the whirlwind.

"Sow". As in seeds.

No, of course it's not guaranteed. That's why I said "it doesn't seem likely". He was well within his rights to shoot them.

Blogger Dark Herald October 06, 2014 6:26 AM  

Here is one more in the spirit of Halloween. An idiot prankster in a Scream mask is jumping out at people with a plastic shotgun. You have to admire the trigger discipline of his Fourth Victim

Anonymous Cryan Ryan October 06, 2014 6:27 AM  

"It's a shame to see two guys die over such a small amount of money..." Eric


No Eric, it isn't a shame. It's the opposite of a shame. It's a joyous occasion and we celebrate the removal of such scum from society. Got that?

Anonymous PhillipGeorge(c)2014 October 06, 2014 6:51 AM  

Vox, I confess. I never checked the quote. General Patton in the movie of his name, gives the line: " no son of a bitch ever won a war dying for his country, You win a war by making the other son of a bitch die for their country.

To wit Vox all armed warfare criminals are "persona non grata" members of another nation.

And wrapping this all up: In my mind Freemasons did more to destroy the Western World than any other group of people by pushing a Utopian Universal Brotherhood of Multi Cultic Man down everyone's collective gullet.

From gun confiscation to ISIS isn't Islam to get shafted by every minority group invaders, its Freemasonry dogma every inch of the way.

The blood of Jesus is what makes a nation and a man.

written spoken and authorized by me for defense intelligence consumption and immediate dissemination.

Anonymous Stg58/Animal Mother October 06, 2014 7:22 AM  

It's a felony in Texas to carry a gun in a bar.

Anonymous Sarcophilus October 06, 2014 7:22 AM  

First sentence typo: "the bad guys have absolutely no reason ??? who is".

Think of CCW as vaccination against criminals, and we need more herd immunity.

The vaxxers had this jingle: "Don't get caught without your shot".

Anonymous Michael October 06, 2014 7:31 AM  

PhillipGeorge(c)2014, "And wrapping this all up: In my mind Freemasons did more to destroy the Western World than any other group of people by pushing a Utopian Universal Brotherhood of Multi Cultic Man down everyone's collective gullet."

Freemasonry, the not-so-secret society of Marxists run by the Zionists...

Anonymous Albert October 06, 2014 7:38 AM  

Statistically, Timefreak, the number of deaths that come of misuse and mal-use of increased possession of firearms are vastly outweighed by citizens saved and outlaws killed(which also pays dividends down the line in terms of fewer lives ruined and/or taken).

Chicago and DC would not have their absurdly high murder rates if return fire thinned the ranks of the outlaws each year.

Anonymous Salt October 06, 2014 7:55 AM  

Who was it who said I carry a gun because a cop doesn't fit into my pocket?
Doesn't make a difference, I guess, but it's true.


Would that be a female cop?

A patron, in a bar, with a loaded gun. The SJWs would be aghast. Can't think of a better place to have one other than a bank. Then again, everywhere sound about right.

Blogger Elusive Wapiti October 06, 2014 8:03 AM  

"It's a felony in Texas to carry a gun in a bar."

I was going to comment on this too. It is in a lot of other states, too, if not all of them. Anyplace of where alcohol is served.

Which may have led to the robbers selecting the bar...low risk of the law-abiding being armed.

The 1v4 shootout winner is in trouble...although if I were on his jury/grand jury, I wouldn't be voting to convict/indict.

Anonymous paradox October 06, 2014 8:05 AM  

O'Donnell said the bar had cameras that were functioning at the time of the incident, and she is cooperating with the investigation.

Why didn't the cameras have a malfunction? They malfunction all the time when the police shoot someone.

Blogger Hamilton October 06, 2014 8:05 AM  

The customer at that bar is going to have his life turned upside down by the legal system. Hopefully he had some sort of carry insurance to help with the incredible amount of legal fees coming his way. Yeah, I guess I'd rather have a couple hundred thousand in legal fees than be dead, but most armed robberies don't end up with people being killed.

Four robbers...good reason to have the highest capacity mag you can get and still conceal. Something that packs a punch, but still fits in a pocket or small holster...

like a 9mm...(exits room quickly)

Anonymous Salt October 06, 2014 8:20 AM  

There are two camps in this situation; criminal and not-criminal. One of them shall be empowered. If juries only really understood this.

Anonymous Laz October 06, 2014 8:32 AM  

@ Salt: Technically it's criminal and criminal in this situation. Even if the customer is in the moral right.

Blogger pyrrhus October 06, 2014 8:38 AM  

Texas has the 51% alcohol sales rule, but it has to be posted. Don't expect a prosecution.

Blogger Glen Filthie October 06, 2014 8:39 AM  

Eric the amount of money is irrelevant and should not vary by the amount of money in the till. We need to punish the act of theft and it should be as dire regardless of whether the till had $200.00 in it or $2,000.00.

This IS unfortunate but it will serve as a warning to other failed liberal social experiments and that is a good thing.

Anonymous joe doakes October 06, 2014 8:55 AM  

Minnesota - one of the bluest states in the union - allows concealed carry in bars so long as your blood alcohol is under .04, half the legal limit to drive. In other words, the guy who's acting as Sober Cab for the party can be armed and sober in a bar. Why the H*** not? He's armed and sober. What difference does it make WHERE he's armed and sober? Ah, but he's in a bar, the Demon Rum might tempt him to drink. And the Demon Car might tempt him to drive. And the Demon Gun might tempt him to shoot: voila: drunken road rage shooting. Unless, of course, he's a responsible adult who can resist temptation like any cop who breaks up a bar fight then drives to the station while armed. Then it's okay. Cops are immune to temptation. It's LiberaLogic, you wouldn't understand.

Anonymous Laz October 06, 2014 9:02 AM  

"Don't expect a prosecution."

I fully expect it to at least go to the grand jury.

Anonymous AT October 06, 2014 9:05 AM  

I'm of two minds about this kind of thing. It's a shame to see two guys die over such a small amount of money, particularly since it doesn't seem like they were ready to use their guns. Most likely they'd have taken the money without hurting anyone and been run down by the cops within a week or so.

Eric is an idiot. Eric, the amount of money is irrelevant. What matters is the threat of force to take from others.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan October 06, 2014 9:22 AM  

Eric the voice of moral authority, or turd in the punch bowl? You decide. IMO the erstwhile robbers made poor life choices, they will not be missed unless it is politically useful to the D party mafia.

Blogger Unknown October 06, 2014 9:25 AM  

Back before I knew the value of being able to cite sources, I did a bit of research into the origins of the Police. Back in the day it was considered a man's duty to see off violent thugs with some vigor, and everyone was armed. The criminals of the day responded by forming bigger and bigger gangs for defense... though I doubt they ever thought of taking on a bar full of armed men even then. The police became a necessity to break up the large gangs, with 'solving crimes' coming later.

Since I do believe history tends to repeat itself, as men take on more responsibility for their own safety by arming themselves, we will see larger and larger gangs for even relatively simple crimes. Whether this leads to the rise of anti-gangs or a reformation of the police remains to be seen.

Anonymous Bz October 06, 2014 9:53 AM  

Eric, I believe and hope there's a position for you as Police Commissioner of New York City in your future. Manhattan needs forgiveness and laughter after these grim decades.

Anonymous dantealiegri October 06, 2014 9:59 AM  

I think everyone is unfairly piling on Eric. It is a waste. Those criminals could be put to good use in hard labor.

Anonymous Anarcho Purplism October 06, 2014 10:14 AM  

Hopefully this guy isn't prosecuted for some trumped up charge.

This situation should clearly deter others.

Blogger Robert What? October 06, 2014 10:16 AM  

@Eric,

I understand what you are saying, but if you are pointing a loaded gun at someone, they have no choice but to assume you plan to use it, and act accordingly.

Anonymous Milam Stephen Munson October 06, 2014 10:26 AM  

Back in the Good Old Days, Houston bars only had to close for an hour or two each day, typically 6-8 am or so.

The odd thing is that back then the juke joints and roadhouses all had signs informing the patrons that the law required thrm to check their guns with the bartender.

It was always a jolt for Urban Yankees visiting Houston when they read one of those signs screwed on the entrance door at eye level. Good to see some Houston folks aren't following the law.

Blogger Unknown October 06, 2014 10:29 AM  

If feminist were serious about ending rape then they would tell every women to arm themselves.

Anonymous Bah October 06, 2014 10:37 AM  

Eric reminds me of the halfwit I met in college who argued it was wrong to shoot a burglar who was "only" going to steal a $100 DVD player. He also said the burglar was "most likely" only going to steal my stuff and not torture and murder me and my whole family. Needless to say I was not convinced.

If an off-duty or plain clothes cop had done the same thing as this citizen, there would be no problem. Not even news. If it is legal and proper for a cop to do it, then it should be the same for a citizen.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan October 06, 2014 10:40 AM  

"Rape" is a political issue not one of criminality these days. It is simply a word to defame the political opposition.

Rape if charged by its old definition would pit two D voting groups against one another way too many times for it to be useful for the D party, and hence we get Lena Dunham and her "rape" and Whoopi Goldberg blurting out the semi-truthful "real rape" line.

Everything is political with the Leftist cult, nothing can be seen outside of that lense, nothing not even Ebola. (as an aside my WAG is that within a week the D cult has a "birther" like name for those concerned about an epidemic)

Anonymous Ranger Rick October 06, 2014 10:41 AM  

I expect a Texas Grand Jury will not vote for indictment, whether Mexican OR White. Texas Mexicans tend to be more hard nosed in these situations than bleeding heart welfare leech California Mexicans.

Anonymous Father of 10 October 06, 2014 10:43 AM  

In Harris Co, he will almost certainly be prosecuted for illegal carry in a bar. Outside of the major cities of Texas he probably wouldn't be. Of course we don't know if he was intoxicated which would ramp up the likelihood of prosecution.

Anonymous GunShowTrash October 06, 2014 10:56 AM  

@ et al:

"I carry a gun because a cop doesn't fit into my pocket"

Often attributed to Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch. Having taken his Urban Rifle course, I recommend him.

And here's another way to think about concealed carry: It's a variation on the mathematical game Prisoner's Dilemma. Look it up; think about it.

Blogger CarpeOro October 06, 2014 10:59 AM  

If the "little amount of money" is what you need to pay off a creditor about to foreclose on your business, it suddenly looms pretty large. Never gauge a crime by the payoff. If it is a small payoff now, who is to say the robbers don't get mad and shot someone? Or that makes them decide to commit four more "small" robberies to make up the difference, thus increasing the chance some victim is shot?

My opinion on police protection is if I can't see one nearby and interested in what is happening to me, I am not getting protected by them.

Anonymous Peter16 October 06, 2014 11:09 AM  

In today's America, with Holder the head of DOJ, a person doing something like this or even just defending himself can get the Zimmerman treatment. A person can go broke, lose their jobs and home, suffer endless court proceedings and sleepless nights. The state considers that it has a monopoly on such things and only it's employees are allowed to shoot anyone. Defense of and safety of the citizens is not it's primary concern. The monopoly on the use of force is it's concern and freelancers are not to be allowed. If some of the small fry out there die as a result of the inability of agents of the state to help them then that's just too bad; they're nobody anyway. Everything within the state, nothing outside of it is allowed.

Anonymous Jack Amok October 06, 2014 11:17 AM  

It's a shame to see two guys die over such a small amount of money, particularly since it doesn't seem like they were ready to use their guns.

I consider human life incredibly precious and I abhor the needless loss of it, but we don't have a shortage of people in this world. If someone decides to make their living by armed robbery, it doesn't bother me in the least to see them die. What is a shame is that four guys had so little respect for civilization that they thought it was okay to steal from hard working people around them.


@ Salt: Technically it's criminal and criminal in this situation. Even if the customer is in the moral right.

Don't be an aspie. I think the general standard we have around here is to ignore the abuse of language liberals engage in and stick to rational definitions. The guys trying to rob the bar were criminals, the guy who stopped them wasn't. If some asshat prosecutor wants to use different definitions, he deserves to be criticized for prosecuting an innocent man.

Anonymous Borderline Anonymous October 06, 2014 11:24 AM  

Eric says
I'm of two minds about this kind of thing. It's a shame to see two guys die over such a small amount of money,

When a man says "Your money or your life" it doesn't matter what amounts of money are involved. He is threatening people with grave bodily harm or death for whatever money they have possession of. That man has placed himself outside of the law, he's declared war on those he's robbing. The answer to a declaration of war? War! Fight back! Deploy overwhelming violence in order to stop the attack.

Eric, suppose the robbery had gone through, and than one or two of the thugs had decided to leave no witnesses behind. There are too many crime scenes that include dead people in the walk-in cooler. Would you then fret about the amount of money involved? I should think not.

The amount of money is irrelevant, as John Locke famously made clear in Two Treatises, it is the act of war made explicit in "Your money or your life". Because there is no recourse for the attacked. If murdered, they cannot be made whole by any court on earth. They have the inherent natural right to fight back until the attackers surrender, or flee, or are otherwise rendered incapable of further aggression.

Anonymous tiredofitall October 06, 2014 11:29 AM  

"It's LiberaLogic, you wouldn't understand." - joe doakes


While it is certainly difficult to get in the position to see a liberal's point of view, once you get your head firmly planted up your ass I'm told it's quite easy to go through the rest of your life that way.

Blogger Ghost October 06, 2014 11:41 AM  

Eric, the robbers fired back. They brought guns to rob not just the bar, but the individual patrons.

So, you have the armed gang, the threat of violence, the forceful robbery, and, when met with resistance, they fired back.

Which part of this story makes you even somewhat think that they didn't want to use their guns? No, the thing they weren't planning on doing was getting shot.

Anonymous Bobo October 06, 2014 11:47 AM  

@Laz
"@ Salt: Technically it's criminal and criminal in this situation. Even if the customer is in the moral right."

Malum in se vs. malum prohibitum

Stop believing what governments tell you...

Anonymous Daniel October 06, 2014 11:54 AM  

I think this whole story is a hoax. If guns aren't legal in a bar in Texas, they couldn't possibly have been carried there by robbers or patrons. Guns can't go off where they can't exist. Perhaps this was all just a whiffle batting gone awry.

Anonymous Justice Served October 06, 2014 12:08 PM  

they didn't want to use their guns?

No matter. It is assault with a deadly weapon.

Anonymous Bah October 06, 2014 12:18 PM  

There are too many crime scenes that include dead people in the walk-in cooler. Would you then fret about the amount of money involved? I should think not.

That's when the liberal sadly says, "it was just a robbery gone wrong". Because ya know, they only wanted to rob people, nor murder them, and robbery isn't really so bad, kind of understandable if not totally acceptable in our unjust and oppressive society that denies opportunity to so many. But, things "just happened" and they wound up killing them despite not intending to do so.

Anonymous Texas Defense Applies! October 06, 2014 12:19 PM  

"They needed killing."

"Agreed. Case dismissed."

Anonymous clk October 06, 2014 12:23 PM  

Wrong in itself vs wrong by prohibition ?

Look ... its not hard to understand the hesitation in killing someone , even a dirtbag robber, for stealing $100 ---fundimental to the "Just Cause" is a proportionate response. The problem here is that one doesnt know the full extent of the robbers intent .. you never know if they plan for leave no witnesses... but they brought guns so I would argue it reasonable to assume they planned on using them.

Now from what I can tell, the "hero" actually fled the scene .. so one could argue that there was some doubt in his mind whether this was justified or not .. personally I suspect what will happen is the shooter will come forward in a day or so after getting a lawyer and making sure that he is alchohol free... he was sitting in the bar past last call .. he would have a few drinks in him.

The practical down side of drawing your gun .. right or wrong.. be prepared to pay a lot of money for defending youself. Once this guy is known ... not only will the DA be interested for criminal matters, but also the family of the dead for civil action ... yes... even in Texas.



Anonymous Anonymous October 06, 2014 12:24 PM  

If the police had been there, they would have shot up the place and most of the bullets would have missed their intended targets.

For some reason foreign audiences don't get information on when guns are successfully used, since often times no shots are fired. So here's a compilation from the source US.

http://gunssavelives.net/category/self-defense/

The Leftist alliance doesn't want their union members, lawyers getting rich from 70% cut of law suit damages, and various women on campuses to be protected and safe. Because if there is no problem, then they can't get any profit and power off of it by controlling the people involved.

Anonymous clk October 06, 2014 12:28 PM  

How does the logic go .."Judged by 12 or carried by 6" ...

Anonymous patrick kelly October 06, 2014 12:28 PM  

"I wonder if more concealed guns will lead to more convenience store clerks as well as other people being gunned down from behind and then robbed. After all they could be carrying."

You don't have to wonder at all, lot's of jurisdictions have had legal concealed carry for many years, the information and stats are there for anyone who really wants to know.

Anonymous Bah October 06, 2014 12:29 PM  

its not hard to understand the hesitation in killing someone , even a dirtbag robber, for stealing $100 ---fundimental to the "Just Cause" is a proportionate response.

Shooting armed robbers IS proportionate.

also the family of the dead for civil action ... yes... even in Texas.

Good luck with that. Costs a lot of money to sue, and chances are the guy you are suing has no money even in the unlikely event you get a conviction.

Anonymous Anonymous October 06, 2014 12:31 PM  

If the citizen defender was a prepper, survivalist, or aware of internet info on the Leftist alliance, leaving might have been risky in 1950s America. But these days, if the police see you with a gun at a site, they might be shooting you first. So it's either disarm there and be under their power, or come in later under your own.

Civil suits for wrongful or emotional damage is an issue, but generally if you don't mouth off to the police about "self defense" all the time, it's difficult for the civil prosecution to get evidence for a case. Of course since the evidence bar is lower in civil suits than criminal ones, they can always get the proclamations of the state prosecutor about how you "gunned down" those baby faced innocents trying to feed their families on welfare. So in shootings, the enemy isn't merely the targets. The targets are just the tactical enemies. The jury, the judge, the federal prosecutor, the state prosecutor, the civil law suit judge, jury, and prosecute can all be considered potential enemies for the strategic phase.

Anonymous patrick kelly October 06, 2014 12:31 PM  

There are many places in Texas commonly called "bars" by locals which don't meet the legal criteria for prohibiting someone with a CHL from carrying. EJ's place might or might not be one of them, not enough info from the article. Just having "Bar" on a sign doesn't quite do it.

Anonymous Jack Amok October 06, 2014 12:32 PM  

Now from what I can tell, the "hero" actually fled the scene .. so one could argue that there was some doubt in his mind whether this was justified or not

Far more likely there was (legitimate) doubt in his mind whether he'd be treated properly by "the authorities" when they arrived. As people have pointed out, he was likely breaking The Law just by having a gun, and prosecutors often take a dim view of regular citizens breaking the rice bowls of folks in the justice system by dealing with criminals themselves.

Anonymous Laz October 06, 2014 12:34 PM  

"Don't be an aspie. I think the general standard we have around here is to ignore the abuse of language liberals engage in and stick to rational definitions. The guys trying to rob the bar were criminals, the guy who stopped them wasn't. If some asshat prosecutor wants to use different definitions, he deserves to be criticized for prosecuting an innocent man."

PC §46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally,
knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter
H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is
concealed, on or about the license holder’s person:
(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under
Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business
derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic
beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic
Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code

No lefty lingo here, just state statutes. Like I said, he may be morally right but, legally he's a criminal.

Anonymous clk October 06, 2014 12:41 PM  

"Shooting armed robbers IS proportionate" -- I dont think I am disagreeing with you but its not hard to appreciate the hesitation in taking a life.. I hope your not the cold hard killer you claim to be. :) I feel remorse when I shoot a rabbit or kill a fish because its life, and life is sacred ... but I do CCW and I do hunt and fish.

"Good luck with that. Costs a lot of money to sue, and chances are the guy you are suing has no money even in the unlikely event you get a conviction" -- again not disagreeing .. the best defense against civil action is to own nothing and have nothing but not everyone is that fortunate to be judgement proof... some of us do have substancial reasources and all it will take is one scumbag lawyer on contingency to make you life miserable. Every month there is a ad in the magazines for insurance coverage for CCW .. its looks more and more reasonable every time I read it.

but I agree .. theres a good chance that the guy sitting at the bar past last call probably doesn't have too much in the way of reasources....

Anonymous clk October 06, 2014 12:47 PM  

"Far more likely there was (legitimate) doubt in his mind whether he'd be treated properly by "the authorities" when they arrived."

Make no mistake .. leaving the scene as he did was smart .. he has time to think, to talk to a lawyer and enter the system on his terms. The first few hours after a shooting scene is likely to be a very intense time .. you dont what to be under the control of the authorities at that time.

Anonymous FP October 06, 2014 12:57 PM  

Re the bar patron being prosecuted, contrast with this CA cop pulling a gun in an OR bar fight.

http://www.ktvz.com/news/calif-police-officer-pulls-gun-during-bend-dispute/28343556

Anonymous Dan in Tx October 06, 2014 1:01 PM  

The bar owner should have turned off the cameras and said they weren't on.
I agree 100% fleeing the scene was the way to go. If the cameras weren't on, he probably wouldn't have anything to worry about, as the patrons weren't going to snitch him out. At least now, he will be sober and can get a lawyer before being run through the wringer for killing some sumbitches who needed killing.
Reminds me of a shooting years ago in Dallas: a guy caught some vibrant youth stealing his car and opened up on them as they drove away, killing the would be thief. The little darling's momma was on TV saying that it was so bad because her baby's life was worth more than that car and the owner shouldn't have shot her baby. Yeah, no charges filed.

Blogger Matamoros October 06, 2014 1:24 PM  

This former cop says to shoot 'n scoot - http://www.crimefilenews.com/2012/05/0-0-1-271-1545-crimefile-12-3-1813-14.html

Blogger Outlaw X October 06, 2014 1:51 PM  

4 against 1 and two of the four are dead the other two fled. As one of the founders of the Texas Rangers said. "You can't stop a man that's in the right, and keeps on a comin'"

Blogger SirHamster October 06, 2014 2:05 PM  

No lefty lingo here, just state statutes. Like I said, he may be morally right but, legally he's a criminal.

"This Constitution ... shall be the supreme Law of the Land;"

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; "

There may be judges who think otherwise, but their being a judge doesn't make them right.

Blogger IM2L844 October 06, 2014 2:17 PM  

I was heartened yesterday seeing some dude open carry in my local Wal-Mart. I had the urge to say thank you as he and what I assumed were his wife and kids passed by, but refrained and just smiled and nodded instead.

Anonymous Anonymous October 06, 2014 2:17 PM  

In re illegal carrying in a bar (or anywhere else for that matter):

It is called necessity. The defense of necessity to the commission of what would otherwise be a crime is a common law defense which carries the same weight as self defense. The Texas law prohibiting carry is outweighed by the necessity to prevent the robbery from occurring.

Blogger JaimeInTexas October 06, 2014 2:25 PM  

The establishment was not named and there is not enough detail as to its nature.

To reinforce what has been said, I think that the term bar may be misused here because if it is a bar they must post the 51% sign at the entrance. 51% establishments (among others) are prohibited places to carry concealed.

If the 51% was not posted and it is a bar, unfortunately, it will fall under the "recklessly carrries" definition. CHL holders are held to a pretty strict standard and are expected/required to know the law. Being in Harris County adds a degree of uncertainty to the legal jeopardy on the customer.

Blogger JaimeInTexas October 06, 2014 2:29 PM  

I agree with comments regarding the right of self defense. I did not get a CHL for a number of years because of this very same view but the numbers of CHL carriers are high enough that getting the CHL became a non issue. Wish all the best to the customer legally and as he reflects on what transpired.

Anonymous Anonymous October 06, 2014 2:41 PM  

To quote: "It's better to be tried by 12 than carried by six."

Anonymous Rolf October 06, 2014 3:22 PM  

"Yer honor, they needed killin'.... The defense rests."
BANG! goes the gavel.
"Charges for carrying in a bar dismissed. Have a good afternoon, Sir."
I would be OK with that outcome.

Anonymous Peter October 06, 2014 4:41 PM  

The prediction by gun-grabbers that armed victims will cause criminals to tool up in some form of arms race is as old and as common as their prediction the CCW would result in the streets running with blood as people shot each other over parking spaces.

A little basic research shows that despite the spread of CCW over that last couple of decades, there has been no such response by criminals. A little basic THOUGHT might lead to the conclusion that criminals no more desire to get killed than the rest if us, and that the normal response is to seek lower risk targets such as unoccupied dwellings or businesses.

Which is what actually happens.

Anonymous Salt October 06, 2014 4:54 PM  

Economy, ebola, etc... pretty soon licensing ain't gonna matter. Not that it matters now in my opinion.

Anonymous Rum October 06, 2014 4:56 PM  

In Texas, it is very perilous to be carrying concealed and also to be inbibing spiritous liquours. In many jurisdictions, there is no legal limit. That is, anything on the breath-alizer = felony if carrying with a permit.. Rumor has it that Harris county is like that. There is a reason the guy ran away.
Thinking guns laws in Texas are easy-peasy is a massive mistake. Open carry = felony, always.
May I recommend the Ruger p345. It is a very low width, single stack .45 ACP. Utterly reliable. Did I mention its a .45 ACP?
If I were Law Enforcement I would carry a Glock in a big holster. But I carry concealed; which very different in many ways.

Blogger Bob Loblaw October 06, 2014 6:14 PM  

There are too many crime scenes that include dead people in the walk-in cooler.

Oh, I don't blame the customer, and for that reason. I might have done the same if I could get the drop on them. Still a shame, though.

Blogger Bob Loblaw October 06, 2014 6:15 PM  

like a 9mm...(exits room quickly)

Oh, you just had to go and do that.

Anonymous El Kabong October 06, 2014 6:19 PM  

If I were Law Enforcement I would carry a Glock in a big holster.

Yeah, but what would you carry if you were straight?

Blogger Outlaw X October 06, 2014 6:28 PM  

'm of two minds about this kind of thing. It's a shame to see two guys die over such a small amount of money, particularly since it doesn't seem like they were ready to use their guns. Most likely they'd have taken the money without hurting anyone and been run down by the cops within a week or so.

That is the biggest load of crap I have ever heard. If there intentions is not to use them then why are they pulling the out? If that were true of armed robbers why ever give them the money? If there not going to use them then F*ck you, you ain't getting Sh*t.

Shoot the bastards then tell them they ain't getting sh*t and they ain't.

Anonymous Rum October 06, 2014 6:29 PM  

A Ruger p345.
Glocks have an annoying tendency to go bang before you want them to when they are not in a purpose built external holster. Google Glocks and Cops...

Blogger Outlaw X October 06, 2014 6:32 PM  

People are sick of it, damn it. I am sick of it, my neighbors are sick of it. Since no one else is going to do a damn thing about these predators we are. If you are thinking about going into crime as your profession you better not do it in Texas.

Anonymous Noah B. October 06, 2014 7:35 PM  

"That is, anything on the breath-alizer = felony if carrying with a permit.. Rumor has it that Harris county is like that. There is a reason the guy ran away."

It is illegal to carry in a place that derives more than 51% of its revenue from alcohol sales, whether you've been drinking or not. Texas Penal Code 49.01 defines being intoxicated as being impaired or having a BAC above 0.08. And although I don't claim to have researched the issue thoroughly, I have not heard of anyone having been arrested and convicted when their BAC was below 0.08.

Also, there is an "implied consent" law here that applies to driving, meaning that if you refuse a breathalyzer while driving and subsequently arrested for DUI you are presumed guilty and your license is automatically suspended for 180 days. I do not believe there is any comparable implied consent law with regard to concealed carry, so if you're not driving, do not consent to a breathalyzer.

Anonymous Noah B. October 06, 2014 7:37 PM  

That said... better to be judged by 12 than carried by six. It's going to be interesting to see if the law makes any effort to charge this man for heroically defending innocent people from thugs.

Anonymous Noah B. October 06, 2014 7:47 PM  

"There may be judges who think otherwise, but their being a judge doesn't make them right. "

Not only that, but most judges definitely know that a great many laws are unconstitutional, which is why they won't allow lawyers and defendants to even mention the Constitution to juries most of the time. The judicial system is thoroughly corrupt.

Anonymous The other skeptic October 06, 2014 8:08 PM  

And another one:

Home Invader shot dead in Texas.

Anonymous clk October 06, 2014 8:34 PM  

We got the makings of a good gun thread here ... wheres Nate? Is he on the run in PA .?

Anonymous Ymar Sakar October 06, 2014 8:40 PM  

The prediction by gun-grabbers that armed victims will cause criminals to tool up in some form of arms race is as old and as common as their prediction the CCW would result in the streets running with blood as people shot each other over parking spaces.

That must have been what Democrats told blacks in the US, to get blacks to switch from Republican loyalty to Democrat plantation setup after Civil War I.

Don't fight back against the KKK, or they'll lynch you some more. And it was true. They didn't fight back, and now they aren't being lynched, they're now safely back on the welfare plantation, where the Democrat slaves belong.

Anonymous The other skeptic October 06, 2014 8:49 PM  

We got the makings of a good gun thread here ... wheres Nate? Is he on the run in PA .?

If he is, they got his food and 90 rounds or something. However, knowing Nate, it was probably a decoy to make the cops become over confident.

Anonymous Jack Amok October 06, 2014 9:24 PM  

No lefty lingo here, just state statutes

You completely missed the point, and are doubling down on the aspie part.

Just because someone got it written into a penal code doesn't mean it's right.

Anonymous Rum October 06, 2014 10:14 PM  

Noah
I only remember what I heard from the Houston HPD SWAT guys who taught my course. The first lesson they rammed home was that what it is that looked like happened will be the only story that matters in the end. That may not be fair but there it is. If you want to live and prevail you must...
Make them come to you. Make them display their evil intentions. After punching their way into your sacred, vulnerable spaces.
Then, send at least three into center-mass..Then 3 more and then change to a new mag quickly on the basis of all that drill.
You might at least a City Council Seat out of it:especially if the dead perp has a wrap sheet.

Blogger Outlaw X October 06, 2014 10:19 PM  

Nate is way ahead of most everyone, people haven't figured it out. They will though later. Been around that boy too long not to know what he is up to.

Anonymous Noah B. October 06, 2014 10:48 PM  

"I only remember what I heard from the Houston HPD SWAT guys who taught my course."

That explains everything. One time, I was talking to a SWAT guy who was attempting to explain exterior ballistics to me. He said that bullets travel in arcs, and I corrected him and said the flight path more closely resembles a parabola than an arc. Lost him immediately.

A smart cop has a good understanding of the Penal Code, and a brilliant cop also knows a bit about the Code of Criminal Procedure. Average cops don't even know the Penal Code.

Some departments even give IQ tests and have maximum allowable scores in addition to minimums.

Anonymous Rum October 06, 2014 11:10 PM  

My company spends all the money it takes in
an average year to rent, own, or buy any police force in this state.
I guess I should shut up at this point. Because we are still, every, time, the Good Guys.

Anonymous Noah B. October 06, 2014 11:25 PM  

I mean, it sounds like most of what they told you was good practical advice Rum -- practical, fairly basic stuff is what those guys do -- but in general you should be very careful about getting anything resembling legal advice from a cop.

Blogger Dave October 06, 2014 11:56 PM  

"It's a shame to see two guys die over such a small amount of money, particularly since it doesn't seem like they were ready to use their guns. "

They "used their guns" when they threatened innocent people with them in order to commit armed robbery.

Anyways, armed robbery isn't about the money. There are other ways to get money. In the old days, nobleman who fell on hard times took up highway robbery because that was considered more honorable than labor. Coercion is its own reward.

Anonymous Noah B. October 07, 2014 12:44 AM  

"In the old days, nobleman who fell on hard times took up highway robbery because that was considered more honorable than labor."

Plus ça change...

Anonymous Jack Amok October 07, 2014 1:08 AM  

In the old days, nobleman who fell on hard times took up highway robbery because that was considered more honorable than labor.

Family legend has it that's how my English ancestors ended up in America. Too well-connected to be executed for being highwaymen, so they pioneered in Virginia the Transportation system that populated Australia a few generations later.

Blogger Chris Mallory October 07, 2014 2:20 PM  

"That must have been what Democrats told blacks in the US, to get blacks to switch from Republican loyalty to Democrat plantation setup after Civil War I."

Blacks didn't flock to the Demorats until nearly 70 years later, under FDR. Before then, the Repugicans were the party of Yankees and blacks. While the D's were the party of Southern Whites.

Blogger Miguel D'Anconia October 07, 2014 2:23 PM  

From the lack of a descriptor of the would-be thieves I would guess they are young vibrants...

Blogger Akulkis October 08, 2014 4:35 AM  


Four robbers...good reason to have the highest capacity mag you can get and still conceal. Something that packs a punch, but still fits in a pocket or small holster...

like a 9mm...(exits room quickly)


I have small hands, and I have NO problem holding a Para-Ordnance .45 with 15 rounds in a double-stack mag.

None whatsovever.

If the army ever goes back to .45, they should develop an M1911A2, with Para-Ordnance's double-stack mag.

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