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Wednesday, December 24, 2014

Sometimes there are no good guys

ESR points out that it's not always possible to take a side:
After Brinsley’s mini-murder-spree, the temptation for any reasonable person to weigh in on the side of conservatives and the cops is great. And yet…and yet…important distinctions are in danger of being lost. On the evidence we have, Michael Brown was a violent thug who deserved the death he got, but the live-on-video strangulation of Eric Garner was a genuine atrocity. The New York medical examiner deemed it a homicide.

But because humans are excessively tribal, it’s difficult now to call for justice against Eric Garner’s murderers without being lumped in with the “wrong side”. Nor will Garner’s partisans, on the whole, have any truck with people who aren’t interested in poisonously racializing the circumstances of his death.

I don’t have a fix for this problem. But someone needs to be pointing out that both of the pseudo-tribes that have sorted themselves around this dispute are behaving badly. “Death to cops” is totally out of line, but the New York police had innocent blood on their hands before Ismaayil Brinsley did on his. There should be an accounting for that, not by assassin’s bullets but by a trial in which justice can be seen to be done.
I'm not on the side of the Africans or the Badge Gang. One is a barbarian force, the other has devolved into a destabilizing one. Both are dyscivic. I'm on the side of civilization, but watching what is taking place in the USA is somewhat akin to watching Tutsis butcher Hutus and vice-versa. It doesn't make any sense to cheer for either side, nor will it accomplish anything positive.

The Badge Gang must be held considerably more accountable than it presently is, for its own sake, if nothing else. Once it loses its perceived moral authority, as is increasingly the case today, it doesn't actually have much else to fall back upon.

The temptation to choose sides is understandable, but in cases such as these it should be resisted. We live in a fallen world, a sinful world, an evil world, where often there are no good guys on either side. That's the central point of the holiday we are celebrating tonight and tomorrow.

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103 Comments:

Anonymous wEz December 24, 2014 9:02 AM  

Well said Vox, well said. Merry Christmas to you and your family. Thank you for your blog and your continued service to it.

Anonymous TLM December 24, 2014 9:03 AM  

The regular talk radio guy was on hiatus this week and his fill-in, some insufferable chick, forced me to make a switch and I had the opportunity to catch a few minutes of the gay mustachio. It's been about a decade since I last listened to his show, but it hasn't changed. He was having a love fest with cops, and it wasn't surprising to hear the faggy little whine and snark in his voice when a caller pointed out that cops have brought this shit upon themselves. And he topped the segment off with the whole ' if you're not doing anything wrong and being disrespectful to cops, you have nothing to fear". What a homo!

Blogger szook December 24, 2014 9:14 AM  

Merry Christmas to VD, SB, and all the Ilk.

Blogger szook December 24, 2014 9:17 AM  

Oh, and in keeping with the OP here, (and with Jesus' attitude on the subject as well) when confronted with options A and B and observing that the person(s) making the offer is evil, always choose C.......

Blogger automatthew December 24, 2014 9:18 AM  

While I agree with ESR and Vox, I sometimes worry that this is the way of the dwarfs at the end of The Last Battle, jeering as the Calormenes and Narnians fight. At least we're not shooting any horses.

Blogger automatthew December 24, 2014 9:21 AM  

Not to imply that there was a moral equivalence between the Calormenes and Narnians. The Dwarfs were for the Dwarfs, they said, and I occasionally hear echoes of that in things I say.

Anonymous Sigh December 24, 2014 9:22 AM  

Don't see how you're going to keep the barbarian tribe in check without killing them. Or at least, the "kill the barbarians until they learn to behave" approach has a long track record of success.

Anonymous Sigh December 24, 2014 9:23 AM  

"cops have brought this shit upon themselves"

By... enforcing the law.

Anonymous wEz December 24, 2014 9:27 AM  

Cop rules and regulations need retuning, redefining, along with the need for more accountability, transparency. Also, justice clearly needs to be served individually for wrong doers who carry the badge. With that said, universalizing all cops as being bad, racist, and law-abusers, is wrong and simplistic. Full-scale, systematic changes are needed for police to be sure, but I cringe when innocent people are murdered because of ignorant, simplistic, evil hateful people.

Anonymous Old Man in a Villa December 24, 2014 9:27 AM  

In both cases we have the collectivist versus the individual. Do individuals have rights or is the will of the collectivist association the trump card in these conflicts.

A fair person looks at both incidents with some sort of blinders on- I may not be a big fan of blacks as a collective race in the US, but the individual (in Garner's case) was clearly the vicitm of collectivist mentality. He was a threat to the collective (the State) by considering those loosies his to do with what he wanted. To the State everything belongs to them- the cigarettes, the revenue from the sales, the streets Garner walked on, in fact, even Garner himself. His resistance was the reason for his justifiable death according to the collectivist mentality. In the case of the gentle giant no matter what he did as an individual to other individuals, be it robbing them or assualting them, was justification for his fate because as a member of a collective- the oppressed black male in a systemically racist country- he was not responsible for his own actions. No individual threatened by him- be it Asian shopkeeper or white male police officer- had the right of self defense against the aggrieved collective.

The problem is when the low information citizen/consumer gets mixed up with which philosophy they have chosen to adopt. Any person who supports the individual knows instictively that no matter how repugnant and ignorant and obese Mr. Garner may have been, he was simply exercising his right as an individual to do what he wanted with his personal property. The police were collectivist thugs who were directly responsible for his death no matter how you try and justify the rights of the State to manhandle anyone they chose in order to extract their tribute. With the Gentle Giant virtually all blacks chose to support him over the very collectivist system that allows them to live without the consequences of their actions on so many levels. The threat to them in their communities is overwhelmingly from violent individuals like Michael Brown, not the servant of the system that houses, clothes, feeds, educates, excuses them from any type of responsibility, encourages them to "protest" and "seek justice", etc. It wasn't other blacks that opened the doors to Little Rock high school, it was overwhelmingly white soldiers with bayonets on the ends of their state supplied rifles that allowed them entrance against the wishes of the overwhelming majority.

Everything seems to break down to these two ideologies and they are by their very definition intractable enemies of one another. What makes the US so interesting is that so many people cannot make sense of their own choice because of the myriad collectivist groupings and their struggle to overpower one another in their ultimate quest for dominance.

I can hardly wait to see how this particular dytopian future plays out.

Anonymous ZhukovG December 24, 2014 9:28 AM  

Merry Christmas to all.

Pax Christi in Regno Christi.

Blogger Al Cibiades December 24, 2014 9:30 AM  

How do we manage ourselves and the need to protect live and property then?

The blue line also acts as a buffer to mob rule, which has an observably higher chance of a frenzied response against just hints of wrong doing much less actual offenses by perps. Against a complete devolution of police authority, when the militias assume the role, you can forget the niceties of Miranda rights, habeas corpus, etc. and yet in that we might have a chance to experience a nouveau frontier justice which strongly encourages a peaceful albeit sometimes brutal coexistence.

Order seems to have been more highly prized even in our recent past. Just ask anyone over 60 about growing up: how they left doors unlocked, rode their bike anywhere, would be disciplined by strangers when misbehaving, etc.

Blogger Chris Mallory December 24, 2014 9:30 AM  

"By... enforcing the law."

No, by their actions while enforcing the law. But the "enforcing the law" defense doesn't work anymore. "Just following orders" doesn't stop you from being hanged.

Blogger Plump Pleasant Plumber December 24, 2014 9:31 AM  

Well, it's going to be a race to the bottom, imo. Once tribalism steps up, reason is taken out and shot. Here's the thing.....black thugs are just that. Period. However, the Police stopped being sweetness and light a while back. Here in Texas civil forfeiture is big business for the Police. Lots of money sloshing around. Lots of opportunities for outright corruption. Germany had a real bad experience with things like that. That being said, black thugs are an existential threat in some places. American history suggests that violence will cure that. White people don't feel white guilt much anymore. Black thugs have finally got some attention. The killings on both sides are going to grow.

Blogger Chris Mallory December 24, 2014 9:34 AM  

The cops joined a collective when they put on the uniform. They are wearing their gang colors and are responsible for the actions of their "brothers".

As for the "protecting life and property" claim, since when? When they pulled out of LA during the riots? When they pulled out of Ferguson? When they get court decisions saying they have no duty to protect anyone? The only two things cops protect is the revenue stream for the government and other cops.

Anonymous VD December 24, 2014 9:40 AM  

By... enforcing the law.

They weren't enforcing the law. Garner wasn't being arrested and wasn't in violation of any laws. He wasn't even selling "loosies" at the time.

If you're going to claim they were "enforcing the law", you must be able to cite the law he was violating.

Blogger Plump Pleasant Plumber December 24, 2014 9:43 AM  

Well, it's going to be a race to the bottom, imo. Once tribalism steps up, reason is taken out and shot. Here's the thing.....black thugs are just that. Period. However, the Police stopped being sweetness and light a while back. Here in Texas civil forfeiture is big business for the Police. Lots of money sloshing around. Lots of opportunities for outright corruption. Germany had a real bad experience with things like that. That being said, black thugs are an existential threat in some places. American history suggests that violence will cure that. White people don't feel white guilt much anymore. Black thugs have finally got some attention. The killings on both sides are going to grow.

Blogger Michael Z. Williamson December 24, 2014 9:47 AM  

Excuse me, but I believe you drive on roads, so if you have a complaint about the government's legitimate authority to tax, perhaps you should go live in Somalia.

That's what "liberals" were telling us about 0care. That's what I'm telling them now.

It's important to note that "homicide" is not the same as "murder." Homicide is a legal finding that the death was not accidental, self-inflicted, natural or unknown. An actor or actors caused the death. The trial will then rule which actors caused the death.

The law is complete bullshit, but at the same time, "loosies" directly take business from the shop owners, or in this case, the owner of the store Garner liked to loiter in front of.

And as the video shows, there were 6 officers around him, including the black, female sergeant. Of course, her presence is awkward for SJWs because then they'd have to either blame a minority, or justify the act. But if there are 6 cops around you, you will not be walking away, and batting the cop's hands is not going to enable that to happen.

The law is bullshit.

Ultimately, all laws are enforced by threat of death.

Never argue with a squad of cops. You cannot win. You argue in court.

Anonymous Godfrey December 24, 2014 9:48 AM  

Unless we understand the presence of [evil] , we shall not only miss the point of Christianity, but even miss the point of Christmas...There is something defiant in [Christmas]... something that makes the abrupt bells at midnight sound like the great guns of a battle that has just been won. All this indescribable thing that we call the Christmas atmosphere only hangs in the air as something like a lingering fragrance or fading vapor from the exultant explosion of that one hour in the Judean hills nearly two thousand years ago....By the very nature of the story the rejoicing in the cavern were rejoicings in a fortress or an outlaw's den.... It is not only true that such a subterranean chamber was a hiding-place from enemies; and that the enemies were already scouring the stony plain that lay above it like a sky. It is not only that the very horse-hoofs of Herod might in that sense have passed like thunder over the sunken head of Christ. It is also that there is in that image a true idea of an outpost, of a piercing through the rock and entrance into an enemy territory. There is in this buried divinity and idea of undermining the world; of shaking the towers and palaces from below; even as Herod the great king felt that earthquake under him and swayed with his swaying palace.

G.K. Chesterton, "The Everlasting Man", Part II, Ch. 1

Anonymous Quartermain December 24, 2014 9:53 AM  

Merry Christmas all...

Blogger Chris Mallory December 24, 2014 9:54 AM  

"The law is complete bullshit, but at the same time, "loosies" directly take business from the shop owners,"

Can't be proven. The guy buying the "loosies" probably doesn't have the cash to buy a $10 pack of cigs from the store.

Blogger Josh December 24, 2014 9:57 AM  

The law is complete bullshit, but at the same time, "loosies" directly take business from the shop owners, or in this case, the owner of the store Garner liked to loiter in front of.

So what?

Anonymous Brain Death December 24, 2014 9:59 AM  

"The Badge Gang must be held considerably more accountable than it presently is, for its own sake, if nothing else."

Agreed. This overall situation is interesting, as you essentially have 2 tentacles of the left going at each other: Mike Brown fans representing the Looney Left, and cops representing the Establishment Left.

Some may argue that many cops are "red", and that may indeed be the case for some *individuals* BUT they are represented by public sector unions which are clearly a major tentacle of the Leftist "Squid".

Until the influence of public sector unions is diminished, there will be no improvement.

Anonymous zen0 December 24, 2014 10:03 AM  

The temptation to choose sides is understandable, but in cases such as these it should be resisted.

And while we sit back and contemplate this aspect of the fallen world, the progs and jihadis will seek to exacerbate the problem to their own ends.

Well, at least we have real hope and change to look forward to:

1“Here is my servant, whom I uphold,

my chosen one in whom I delight;

I will put my Spirit on him,

and he will bring justice to the nations.

2He will not shout or cry out,

or raise his voice in the streets.


3A bruised reed he will not break,

and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.

In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;

4he will not falter or be discouraged

till he establishes justice on earth.

In his teaching the islands will put their hope.”

Anonymous Michael December 24, 2014 10:03 AM  

Have to agree that neither side is good in this dispute. I suspect the upswing in civil unrest was engineered by the Zio-Marxists (Hegelian Dialectic), as is the case with the deliberate influx of Muslims into western nations.

Christian societies are their primary targets; they hate us for our faith. For example, notice how the elites in Germany attacked and slandered the throngs of German-Christians who protested the deliberate invasion of Muslims by singing Christmas carols. Even a Protestant Bishop condemned the crowds for being non-inclusive. Unacceptable! We have the right to preserve our cultural heritage and do so with dignity.

Anonymous Godfrey December 24, 2014 10:09 AM  

"...the Church from its beginnings, and perhaps especially from its beginnings, was not so much a principality as a revolution against the prince of the world. This sense that the world had been conquered by the great usurper, and was in his possession, has much been deplored or derided by those optimists who identify enlightenment with ease. But it was responsible for all that thrill of defiance and a beautiful danger that made the good news seem to be really good and new. It was in truth against a huge unconscious usurpation that it raised a revolt..."

GK Chesterton, The Everlasting Man

Anonymous ZhukovG December 24, 2014 10:09 AM  

The tendency of conservatives to excuse police behavior, however vile, is indicative of a growing philosophical and intellectual rot within The Right. One need not side with Urban African thugs, to rightly condemn the increasing contempt that modern police have for individual liberty.

For some reason, The Right has adopted the delusion that the police are on their side. They are not. They serve The State, not The Nation.

Indeed, sometimes there are no ‘good guys’. But there are victims.

Garner may not have been a good man, but he was still a victim. The two slain police officers may have been bad cops, but they were still victims.

Because it is the Policeman who possesses official authority, it is the Policeman who must be held to the higher standard. It is the Policeman who must expect and accept that their actions will be scrutinized.

When I was in training ‘Minimum Force’ was practically a mantra constantly drilled into our heads. We were taught to defuse situations, not escalate them.

What has happened to the police is going to get a lot of them killed if reforms are not made.

Anonymous zen0 December 24, 2014 10:14 AM  

> Can't be proven. The guy buying the "loosies" probably doesn't have the cash to buy a $10 pack of cigs from the store.

I bet one loosie costs more than 5% of a pack, however. This isn't exactly a charity operation the guy it running. I am not saying he deserves the death penalty, I am just saying he exploits the addictions of others for his own ends. Not exactly a heroic figure either.

Which, of course, fits neatly into the fallen world, fallen men scenario.

Anonymous dh December 24, 2014 10:19 AM  

If you're going to claim they were "enforcing the law", you must be able to cite the law he was violating.

The other-side is, you have to say what law the police broke. The "hold" that the cops used to crush his throat was not illegal. For almost all murder crimes (1st, 2nd degree), you need intent. Did the police intend to cause his death? Probably impossible to prove.

So, then, whats left. There could be voluntary manslaughter. To prove that, you usually have to show that cop acted in a way that caused the death and was the result of "heat of the moment" interaction. However the police are trained to react the way they did. There was no anger in the video really, just cool detached following orders nihilism.

After that, you have criminal negligent homicide, or maybe, involuntary manslaughter, depending on your local laws. To show this, you have to show that the act was inherently dangerous. That is probably provable in the Garner case, except the police can point to thousands of such arrests where the person wasn't killed.

If you can't provide involuntary manslaughter, it just gets worse. You have a rock solid case for assault. It's fairly evident to me that there isn't a good criminal law that applies when cops end up killing a citizen. All the murder laws are sufficiently strong that you really have to show intent. Manslaughter laws are also designed to catch people doing things which are not spontaneous, not something that is drilled into their heads.

It could be that we need a modern version of regicide for citizens. Police should be held to a higher standard than citizens, both in policy and law.

Anonymous Porky December 24, 2014 10:22 AM  

We have the right to preserve our cultural heritage and do so with dignity.

What right is that?

Anonymous Dan in Tx December 24, 2014 10:33 AM  

My understanding of the Garner situation was that he wasn't selling any loosies (this was something he had been in trouble for in the past). Garner had broken up a fight between two other guys and the cops were called for that incident.

Anonymous Michael December 24, 2014 10:39 AM  

Porky, "What right is that?"

Respect for ourselves and for our neighbors. We have the right to a place called home. Only a people who have been deceived into thinking of themselves as privileged and racist would lack the respect necessary to prevent their home nation from being invaded and eventually supplanted by others. As I said, the destruction of western nations, predominantly Christian, is deliberate.

OpenID mattse001 December 24, 2014 10:44 AM  

"They weren't enforcing the law. Garner wasn't being arrested and wasn't in violation of any laws. He wasn't even selling 'loosies' at the time."
That's news to me. Source?

Anonymous Sarcophilus December 24, 2014 10:51 AM  

New York police had innocent blood on their hands before Ismaayil Brinsley did on his. There should be an accounting for that, not by assassin’s bullets but by a trial in which justice can be seen to be done.

Except the "badge gang" includes the prosecutors and their indiscretion and malice. Geeks know about Aaron Swartz, but there are myriad cases. Mandatory minimum sentences prevent even good judges from fixing things - there is no such thing as "the mercy of the court".

This is what NYC considers justice for someone accused and eventually found innocent. Why cops instead get a paid vacation under worse circumstances is a reasonable question.

If trials or lack thereof prevent justice, then the alternative is what the drug trade - that can't access courts - uses.

Even in the Michael Brown case, a trial would have been better, with things out in the open, like the George Zimmerman - Travon Martin (which should NOT have gone to trial - Zimmerman was beaten up).

Anonymous The other skeptic December 24, 2014 10:52 AM  

It is amusing to see ESR spout off as if the actions and ideologies of the common people can change anything. It is also amusing to see him use emotion-laden rhetoric like a teenage girl.

The reality is that the path we are on was setup a long time ago and will end in predictable ways, eg, the likely break up of the USA and quite a lot of escalating violence before then.

I think that we have now seen the signs that NYC will go the way of Detroit. The outcome is predictable and may well occur much more quickly than it did with Detroit. I doubt that there is anyone in NYC who would be Theodora.

Anonymous Porky December 24, 2014 10:54 AM  

@Michael

"We have the right to a place called home."


You really don't have this right. It's not a legal right, it's not a natural right.

It's more of an innate desire.

As I said, the destruction of western nations, predominantly Christian, is deliberate.

No argument here. In regards to the OP I'd say there is only one side that is the "good side".

Anonymous zen0 December 24, 2014 10:56 AM  

> He wasn't even selling 'loosies' at the time."

The excuse was "suspicion" of. All I can say is that it is a good thing he wasn't selling pop in a container larger than 16 oz. or they would be justified in gunning him down.

Anonymous The other skeptic December 24, 2014 10:56 AM  

I am not saying he deserves the death penalty, I am just saying he exploits the addictions of others for his own ends.

So, farmers exploit the addictions of others?

Anonymous The other skeptic December 24, 2014 11:05 AM  

And we have another 18-yo black foot soldier killed by a white cop in MO.

Anonymous paradox December 24, 2014 11:09 AM  

I favor neither the chimps or the pigs. However, the pigs start escalating things against everyone, they may have a Battle of Athens on their hands.

These necons have Batman syndrome. They believe they're with the cops fight the street mob, like the third Batman movie, The Dark Knight Rises.

Blogger Cail Corishev December 24, 2014 11:09 AM  

"loosies" directly take business from the shop owners

If that were certain, there would be no such thing as distributors or retailers. All producers would sell directly to consumers, rather than lose business to middlemen.

In the real world, the guy who takes a truckload of toasters and sells them to people who only need one adds value for both ends. Why wouldn't that be true with cigarettes?

I've been a retailer. If someone came in and bought, say, a box of 100 nails from me for $5 and then went out and sold single nails to people for $1 each, making a 2000% profit, I might think it's time to start selling nails individually. Or I might just be glad for the $5 sale (I was happy with it before the news, after all; I think there's even a parable about that). But I certainly wouldn't try to make it illegal to sell individual nails.

Of course, in the case of "loosies," the retailer isn't allowed to sell them individually. That's the state's choice, not his. So this is about the state protecting its control over taxation and behavior; it's not about the retailer at all. The state would gladly grind that retailer to dust under its boot if it didn't need him to act as tax collector.

Blogger YIH December 24, 2014 11:10 AM  

TLM:
The regular talk radio guy was on hiatus this week and his fill-in, some insufferable chick, forced me to make a switch and I had the opportunity to catch a few minutes of the gay mustachio. It's been about a decade since I last listened to his show, but it hasn't changed. He was having a love fest with cops, and it wasn't surprising to hear the faggy little whine and snark in his voice when a caller pointed out that cops have brought this shit upon themselves. And he topped the segment off with the whole ' if you're not doing anything wrong and being disrespectful to cops, you have nothing to fear". What a homo!
What you're overlooking is the gay mustachio as Vox dubbed him is in a special category - media celebrity.
Someone who lives in ''the gated community'' (or a large private property) complete with private security that can keep ''the badge gang'' at bay until the lawyer(s) and TV ''news'' media show up.
People who are high profile enough in the entertainment industry that ''the badge gang'' do actually fear them.
If they do things like child molestation they don't have to worry about getting treated like a Chris Hanson target.
Even if they have major problems with drug addiction they won't get treated like someone in the wrong place at the wrong time while high as ''joe average'' might.
These folks will never be concerned about a SWAT team bashing through their front door and chucking a grenade at their kid or casually blowing away their pet.
Also for neocons, worship of ''first responders'' is part of their shtick anyway.

Blogger YIH December 24, 2014 11:14 AM  

**rolls eyes**: It seems like this time of year Blogger likes to choke on a link or two.
Let's try this again: child molestation.

Anonymous Stilicho December 24, 2014 11:15 AM  

dh, your understanding of criminal law is only eclipsed by your understanding of tax law. But do go on. Your advice is worth every penny the Ilk are paying for it.

Blogger Stirge December 24, 2014 11:20 AM  

Don't be afraid to speak out for the truth. Yes, it is tempting to pick sides, especially when the problem is so easy to see, but we just can't bring ourselves to admit it. When you put up with rioting and bad behavior and then try to justify it, you are allowing law and order to falter, then ultimately fail. See: Brazil

Blogger Cail Corishev December 24, 2014 11:26 AM  

The tendency of conservatives to excuse police behavior, however vile, is indicative of a growing philosophical and intellectual rot within The Right.

I don't know if it's growing, or if it's just being more exposed by situations like this. Among middle-American conservatives I know -- the Minnesota Nice type -- it seems to be based on two things which have been true for my lifetime. First, their frame of reference is always 1964, so they still think of the cops as Andy Tayor. They might recognize that some cops are corrupt, but they think those are a small minority among a crowd of dedicated public servants who will make sure the truth always comes out, and a whole slew of TV shows reinforce that belief every week.

Second, they don't want to express any opinion that puts them on the side of criminals or dope-smoking long-hairs or lying defense attorneys. No one looks good in a mug shot, and no one looks good in the initial media reports about his arrest. Conservatives don't want to be associated with the kind of people who get arrested now and then.

All that results in a "where there's smoke there's fire" shrugging off of these stories, where they assume the cops were probably right and the suspect -- by dint of being suspected -- was probably wrong, and if that's not the case, Internal Affairs and the court system will straighten it out and make sure justice is done. They have a great faith that Justice Is Done in America -- it just is.

Also, I think conservatives, for some reason, have a hard time recognizing that some situations don't have any good guys.

Anonymous Godfrey December 24, 2014 11:29 AM  

When the "law" itself becomes corrupt, capricious, oppressive and merely a means of extracting wealth from citizens, it undermines authority and becomes the cause of disorder.

Anonymous zen0 December 24, 2014 11:31 AM  

@ the other sceptic

> So, farmers exploit the addictions of others?

Indeed. I have to concede to your superior reasoning. After all, who does not crave some fruit or vegetables on a regular basis.

Anonymous Porky December 24, 2014 11:35 AM  

How it should have gone down:

"We've had a complaint that you are selling loosies. Are you selling loosies?"
"No."
"Ok, then we need you to move along and not loiter here."

How it goes down these days:

"We've had a complaint that you are selling loosies. Are you selling loosies?"
"No."
"Well we think you are. Turn around and put your hands behind your back."

How it will happen in the near future:

"We've had a complaint that you are selling loosies. (draws weapon) Get on the ground now."

How it will go down in the not so distant future:

"We've had a complaint that you are selling loosies. Are you selling loosies?"
"No."
"Well you shouldn't have blogged about the cops, bitch. Get on the ground."

Anonymous bw December 24, 2014 11:42 AM  

So, farmers exploit the addictions of others?

They have certainly been taking the government redistributionist payments for decades and decades.
Government control of Ag - and Big Ag controls government "works with" them in a Fascist manner - is a main plank of the Communist Manifesto, among other things.
The FDA is yet another revolving door.
We find ourselves in an amalgam of -isms, to include crony, monopoly capitalism.

Blogger Brad Andrews December 24, 2014 11:43 AM  

dh,

So you are fine if I use that chokehold on you, since it is not illegal, right?

Anonymous I Love Loosie December 24, 2014 11:44 AM  

Hey Porkie

You left out the part where the cops ipad or whatever they use told him the guy was on parole for selling loosies.

Nothin better for cops than to screw a guy's parole up.

Blogger Outlaw X December 24, 2014 11:48 AM  

What so hard to judge each incident on merit? That kind of "picking sides" is not only right it is righteous. Discriminating circumstance is the only clear path to navigate a civilized society among the uncivilized that roam. Not taking a side is the same thing as taking a side based on tribal affiliation. It was the right thing to exonerate one cop and wrong to exonerate the others. It really isn't that difficult to discern. Passions have made this ugly and those who stirred them are guilty.

Anonymous The other skeptic December 24, 2014 11:49 AM  

Indeed. I have to concede to your superior reasoning. After all, who does not crave some fruit or vegetables on a regular basis.

Heh.

I am fortunate in that I have been able to resist the evils of tobacco and drugs other than alcohol, and I am not addicted to it either.

I am further fortunate that the escapism that Kratman and Pournelle sell is cheap enough.

Anonymous dh December 24, 2014 12:01 PM  

So you are fine if I use that chokehold on you, since it is not illegal, right?

No, that's assault. Something tells me one tribe would not be happy if the cops in question got the same sentence as a bar room brawl participant got.

Anonymous John Regan December 24, 2014 12:14 PM  

Let's not give the legal profession - and especially the judiciary - a pass in all this. Long before conflict of this kind surfaces in the streets it has percolated in the courts, and unjust resolutions have been the rule:

https://strikelawyer.wordpress.com/2013/04/03/anger/

https://strikelawyer.wordpress.com/2013/02/22/assigned-roles-making-a-living-and-lawyer-blinders/


Blogger haus frau December 24, 2014 12:14 PM  

I suspect race baiters purposely pick marginal (at best) cases like Brown's and Trayvon's to champion publically because they know these cases will drive division rather than drawing attention to the root problem of unaccountable police. Cases like that of Kelly Thomas and Kenneth Chambers in White Plains, New York might have drawn people together because they clear examples of out of control police. Will Grigg has pages and pages of clear, undeniable examples of individuals victimized by police. Instead they rally around thugs they know white people will feel no empathy toward and attribute to race what is better explained by prosaic institutional corruption. .

Anonymous bob k. mando December 24, 2014 12:15 PM  

Vox December 24, 2014
ESR points out that it's not always possible to take a side:



bullshit. i can take the side of Justice.

that puts me against the Police unions and the racial grievance mongers simultaneously.



Michael Z. Williamson December 24, 2014 9:47 AM
Ultimately, all laws are enforced by threat of death.



which does not change the fact that attempting to handcuff someone for "selling loosies" is completely unacceptable *in a civilized society*.

thousands of parking tickets are issued in NYC every day ... and no one is even threatened with arrest, much less lethal force.

Garner should have been issued a citation and been given an order not to loiter in front of a business, we'd have never heard anything of him.

instead, he'd been arrested over 30 times for what most people wouldn't even recognize as a crime.


Porky has actually managed to characterize the situation fairly aptly.

Blogger YIH December 24, 2014 12:25 PM  

Cail Corishev:
The tendency of conservatives to excuse police behavior, however vile, is indicative of a growing philosophical and intellectual rot within The Right.

I don't know if it's growing, or if it's just being more exposed by situations like this.

Think back to the Rodney King beating, ''The Right'' were indeed defending the cops.
Often saying things like ''yeah, they beat the hell out of him'' (they couldn't deny that) ''but he brought it upon himself'' by claiming (on a little-seen portion of the video) ''because he charged the police'' (never mind there were quite a few of them around him by the time they started to assault him and could have simply gang-tackled him NFL style).
I agree that Rodney King was no good guy nor did his beating in any way ''justify'' the LA riots.
But despite the neocons defense, the cops did get out of hand.

Anonymous The Shyster December 24, 2014 12:50 PM  

[T]he live-on-video strangulation of Eric Garner was a genuine atrocity. The New York medical examiner deemed it a homicide.


Rough translation: "There was an atrocity. It was so bad that an Expert called it a 'homicide"'.

The Expert used the legal definition of "homicide", not the popular definition [NB: what is the rhetorical term for using alternative definitions?]

Homicide =/= murder. Homicide =/= manslaughter.

If you are trick-or-treating, jump out of the bushes, yell "Boo!", and the person hearing the "Boo!" has a heart attack/asthma attack and dies, the Expert calls it a "homicide".

If you kick a soccer ball and it clocks a player in the head and he dies, the Expert calls it is a "homicide".

If two first graders wrassle during recess, one kid gets a skinned knee and a year later dies of a blood infection from that skinned knee, the Expert calls it a "homicide".

Atrociousness, Intentionality, recklessness, or even foreseeability do not define legal "homicide".

Under the English legal system (which is our legal system) a stranger, even a cop, can stand there laughing and watching an infant drown in a mud puddle and it is not a homicide. Sinful? Fallen? Atrocious? Immoral? Depraved? Yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes ... but not a "homicide".

Blogger Doom December 24, 2014 12:51 PM  

You may be correct. And yet I remember hearing from the ancient and recent left, complaints about what happened at Sodom and Gomorrah, God's prescription for the people occupying the Promised Lands, the flood, and many other events attributed to God or angels. Simply the allowance of suffering, and death, it seems, make God "the bad guy". So, no, it isn't as simple as that.

I am parsing whether the police are correct enough, or correct in a way that might not be easy to see, for some. I suggest, just as I do with my support for the death penalty, that... it is supposed to be that way. You, perhaps, are suggesting that things have crossed the line. How many, say, in Sodom, were actually good people who simply did not understand what they faced, or perhaps didn't even get the message? Yes, there were some. But, at some point, man, angel, other... when called... must simply kill them all, letting God sort it out. Not quite there, but the curtain between here and there, fullstop, is becoming thin.

Right now there is left, middle, and right. At some point, there won't be a middle. Choices will have to be made. Best to prepare. I don't think this will be the last time for such choices, just a change of epochs. A new, and dark, long day in the history of man is upon us. Sooner more so, probably, than later.

As I remember it, two men were being crucified along with Christ. Their crimes were simple thievery. So, a tax evasion would have at least as harshly punished in the time of Christ. Nary a condemnation for the punishment from the Son of Man, merely an offer to heaven in spite of their sins. Something to consider. Yes, I am deeply on one side, hoping the cops themselves stop straddling that line and pick the correct side fully. There will be blood, either way. Probably less the quicker sides are chosen.

Anonymous The Lion December 24, 2014 1:02 PM  

Indeed. I have to concede to your superior reasoning. After all, who does not crave some fruit or vegetables on a regular basis.

Psst -- he was referring to tobacco farmers exploiting addictions.

Blogger Aquila Aquilonis December 24, 2014 1:04 PM  

We live in a fallen world, a sinful world, an evil world, where often there are no good guys on either side. That's the central point of the holiday we are celebrating tonight and tomorrow.

Stuff like this makes we pray harder and with more faith.

Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.

Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.


With this in mind:

If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

Blogger ajw308 December 24, 2014 1:19 PM  

The blue line also acts as a buffer to mob rule
Look at Ferguson, New Orleans, the ubiquitous flash mobs & knockout game assaults, etc. they don't stop any mobs, anywhere.

Anonymous The other skeptic December 24, 2014 1:25 PM  

Psst -- he was referring to tobacco farmers exploiting addictions.

Actually, not really. I was simply trying to say the Garner was trying to make a living. He was dealt a fairly shitty deal. Fairly bad genes and NYC is no place for those with low skill levels.

Did he deserve to die? Most likely not, but when you go up against the city you have to have a clear understanding of your strengths and weaknesses.

On the moon, the man who sells oxygen at extortionate prices would be exploiting my addiction to oxygen. If I had the power I could take it from him, of course.

Anonymous Jill December 24, 2014 1:43 PM  

I'm pretty sure all of these philosophical questions about justice and tribalism that crop up are easily answered by "might makes right".

Anonymous Godrey December 24, 2014 1:46 PM  

haus frau

You hit the nail on the head.

The purpose of whore establishment MSM is to divide and rule.

Blogger Sam Hall December 24, 2014 1:53 PM  

Cail Corishev December 24, 2014 11:09 AM
"loosies" directly take business from the shop owners

The "loosies" he was selling had been smuggled into the city and no tax paid. He may well have been selling them below the retailer's cost.

Anonymous Jack Amok December 24, 2014 2:25 PM  

That being said, black thugs are an existential threat in some places.

True, and Michael Brown fits that mold, but not Eric Garner. Garner was a freelance entrepreneur. He had a long arrest record, and please correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I know, none of it was for thuggery. It was for "crimes" like selling loosies.

Outlaw X is right, it's a case-by-case basis. That's what grown-up, civilized people do, we use our good judgement and treat decent people with respect and kindness, and we treat barbarian thugs with contempt and whatever level of violence is necessary to keep them at bay.

The basic problem we have is that both "sides" (the cops and the race baiters) seek to obscure the line between civilization and thuggery so that they can claim our allegiance.

The other-side is, you have to say what law the police broke.

No, we don't, because we're not the ones making the claim about "enforcing the law." We're the ones making the claim about dyscivic behavior. All we have to do is say how the police are degrading civlization.

Blogger Chris Mallory December 24, 2014 2:50 PM  

"The "loosies" he was selling had been smuggled into the city and no tax paid. He may well have been selling them below the retailer's cost."

Citation for this?

It should fall under interstate commerce and be allowed. But I can not buy two cartons of cigarettes and drive through Illinois or I will be charged with smuggling by that hellhole of a state. A good rule of thumb is to avoid the state of Illinois at all costs.

Blogger Chris Mallory December 24, 2014 2:55 PM  

"it's a case-by-case basis"

The case by case basis falls apart when you start dealing with the "thin blue line", "brotherhood of protectors" and "sheepdogs" that modern cops spout off about constantly. They wear uniforms to make themselves uniform.

I had one cop telling me that "don't judge me by the bad apples" crap. I asked him if he pulled over a biker wearing 1% outlaw club patches if he treated him like a "Goldwings" rider or did he do a "felony" stop. He wouldn't answer me.

Blogger Shibes Meadow December 24, 2014 3:07 PM  

Pigs vs. Chimps vs. City Hall Commies? And they say there's no such thing as Santa Claus!

Blogger Sam Hall December 24, 2014 3:09 PM  


Chris Mallory

NYPD sources confirm that Eric Garner was a player in an organized crime cigarette smuggling syndicate, Gotnews.com has learned.

Staten Island arrested Garner many times for smuggling untaxed cigarettes.
NYPD Confirms #EricGarner Was A Member of Organized Crime in Staten Island

Anonymous bob k. mando December 24, 2014 3:10 PM  

dh December 24, 2014 10:19 AM
To prove that, you usually have to show that cop acted in a way that caused the death and was the result of "heat of the moment" interaction. However the police are trained to react the way they did.



false. the choke is against NYPD department policy.

Anonymous bob k. mando December 24, 2014 3:19 PM  

"Garner was busted on March 28 for allegedly selling unstamped cigarettes on the street outside of 200 Bay St."


i find it highly ironic that the Eric Garner died due to a stamp tax law.

the same type of law which initiated the American Revolution ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stamp_Act_1765

Anonymous bob k. mando December 24, 2014 3:19 PM  

baleet protection

Anonymous Porky December 24, 2014 4:39 PM  

i find it highly ironic that the Eric Garner died due to a stamp tax law.

the same type of law which initiated the American Revolution ...


Good point. Note also the Whiskey Rebellion was fought over a similar stupid excise tax in 1791. Seems the FF's rather liked the taste of taxation without representation once they got into power, much like Obama embraced Executive Orders when he ascended the throne.

Anonymous Laz December 24, 2014 5:15 PM  

"Under the English legal system (which is our legal system) a stranger, even a cop, can stand there laughing and watching an infant drown in a mud puddle and it is not a homicide. Sinful? Fallen? Atrocious? Immoral? Depraved? Yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes ... but not a "homicide"."

You forgot to mention that the stranger will go to jail anyways for failure to render aid and if that baby died they'll get a sentence equivalent to manslaughter.

Anonymous no one of consequence December 24, 2014 6:37 PM  

bob k. mando, you (as well as many other regulars) are getting caught in spam a lot lately, and I think it's because of a dilemma involved in unspamming you. Stilicho, you're probably getting hit with the same problem.

When one of your comments fails to show up, you typically retry a few times, as I can see when I check the spam folder. Usually I unspam one of the comments and delete the duplicates. I think Blogspot must be counting those deleted duplicates against you, as they were not explicitly unspammed.

Things to try:

* reword your comment slightly before trying again
* don't try again, just wait for a moderator to check the spam folder
* moderators can try unspamming all the dupes, but then go and delete all but one.

In summation, Blogspot comments suck.

Blogger Laguna Beach Fogey December 24, 2014 7:31 PM  

I'm siding with the police on this one.

Anonymous Rhys December 24, 2014 7:32 PM  

@ Laz: No they won't. There was a case in England a few years back when a bunch of cops and firefighters stood by as someone drowned because none of them were trained for water rescue...but they all could have saved the drowning victim.

In your country it may be different but sadly modern day England is not the same country your ancestors came from

Anonymous Shibes Meadow December 24, 2014 7:54 PM  

RACIAL VIOLENCE ESCALATION LADDER

Rung 0: Normal peaceable animosity between Chimps and non-Chimps. Pig brutality at normal levels.

Rung 1 is Chimps bitching peacefully about Pigs. Slight increase in Pig brutality.

Rung 2 is Chimps protesting Pigs. Pigs shift into stormtrooper mode (armor, MRAPs, etc.) in an attempted show of force

Rung 3: Chimps violently protest Pigs by burning down Chimp property, obstructing trafic, symbolic actions (e.g., "die-ins"). Stromprooper-mode Pigs react with CS, etc., but no bullets. This is Ferguson.

Rung 4: Chimps attack Pigs directly. This is the stage we reached when the two cops were murdered last week. Pigs go full stormtrooper nationwide.

Rung 5: Type A Race Riot. Chimps attack local property on a neighborhood scale. Broad-daylight assaults on non-Chimps, mass arson, etc. Stormtrooper Pigs use bullets but are forced to withdraw from combat zone; civil government retains control over majority of urban area; non-Chimps in combat zone forced to defend themselves against Chimps. This is LA 1992.

Rung 6:Type B Race Riot: Chimps attack local property on a citywide/regional scale. Broad-daylight assaults on non-Chimps, mass arson, etc. Stromtrooper Pigs withdraw from combat zone; civil government loses control in urban area. Non-Chimps in combat zone forced to defend themselves against Chimps. This is LA 1992.

Rung 7: Type C Race Riot. Chimps attack urban areas nationwide. Broad-daylight assaults on non-Chimps, mass arson, etc. Stormtrooper Pigs withdraw from combat zones, Chimps assume power; non-Chimps in combat zone fight their way out or die. Pigs and Military forces called in to break Chimp power in cities. This is Detroit, Oakland, etc.. 1968.

Rung 8: Type D Race Riot: Chimps begin expeditionary warfare against non-Chimp suburbia. Civilian non-Chimp militias defend suburban areas. Pigs and Military forces called in to break Chimp power.This is Katrina, 2005.

Rung 9: Tactical Race War: General insurrection by Chimps against non-Chimps on a nationwide scale. Chimps within the ranks of the Pigs defect and join forces with other Chimps.

Rung 10: Race War. General insurrection by Chimps against non-Chimps on a nationwide scale. Chimps within the ranks of the military forces defect and join forces with other Chimps

After Rung 10 comes general civil war.

What you are seeing now on the news is just chest-beating. The real turning point will come the first time a Chimp-Pig shoots a non-Chimp Pig. At that point, it's on like Donkey Kong.

God forbid, of course.

Anonymous Corvinus December 24, 2014 8:13 PM  

How about Pigs vs. Nigs. Rhymes, and all that.

Anonymous Anon December 24, 2014 8:25 PM  

"God forbid, of course."

Americans won't have to worry about rungs 8 - 10 imho. They will obey massa ie.. fall in line with the system. Mooselimbs on the other hand can be counted on to escalate things to rungs 8 - 10.

Anonymous bob k. mando December 24, 2014 8:53 PM  

no one of consequence December 24, 2014 6:37 PM
When one of your comments fails to show up



that's not what's happening. my comments are *all* posting. i can reload the comment page or even bounce out to Home or go offsite and then return and my post will still be displayed on the new page load.

the problem is that i'll come back to the thread 5, 10, 15 minutes later and Blogspot will have deleted my last post and my last post only.

it does not seem to delete my posts IF someone / ANYone else posts subsequent to me.

that's the purpose of my 'baleet protection' posts. it's garbage, meaningless text just to get a post on the tail of the thread. several of these have already been deleted, but they seem to be serving their purpose. nothing else that i've posted upthread is getting taken out.

i kind of wonder if this isn't what Taylor was whining about before she lost her mind. she was claiming to be getting posts modded and Vox didn't know what she was talking about.

the really aggravating thing is the intermittent nature of the problem ... i'm doing the same thing over and over again and getting different results.

however, Blogspot seems to have gotten much more aggressive against me over the last week, so i'll probably be doing these 'baleet' posts from here on out.


no one of consequence December 24, 2014 6:37 PM
In summation, Blogspot comments suck.



well, yeah. we knew that like, three commenting systems ago.

'no one of consequence', eh?

Markku and the Bunster both post under their own avatar names.

to be someone a control freak like Vox would delegate mod rights too, you've got to be someone that he trusts explicitly.

IF Vox has mentioned you previously
THEN you might have some tactical prowess.

:3



Porky December 24, 2014 4:39 PM
Seems the FF's rather liked the taste of taxation without representation once they got into power



*sigh* porkers gonna oink.

it's a Stamp Tax, true. HOWEVER, the voters of NYS and NYC have representation.

so there is a critical difference in the two situations.

Anonymous zen0 December 24, 2014 9:13 PM  

> God forbid, of course.

Yes, of course. Goes without saying. Absolutely. How could one think otherwise? Abhorrent to all right thinking individuals. Unthinkable. Anathema. Really, really, bad.
There is no place in society for that type of thing...............

Blogger Kentucky Packrat December 24, 2014 9:21 PM  

dh: For almost all murder crimes (1st, 2nd degree), you need intent.

You forget felony murder. If the cops taking down Mr. Garner were committing a felony in their actions, then they have committed murder despite having no direct intent to commit murder. I don't know if NY state has a "deprivation of civil rights" law, but if it does, then I would think you could apply felony murder in this case.

Also, you basically hand waved past involuntary manslaughter. NYPD regulations and training call the chokehold reckless. They continued to use the hold even after the victim stated that he was having trouble breathing. They acted with reckless disregard that directly resulted in the victim's death. Personally, I believe that this is the charge that should be placed against all cops on the scene.

Anonymous zen0 December 24, 2014 10:07 PM  

Dudes! The court is now in session.....

State your cases gentlemen, but be careful to abide by the commnonly recognized rules of engagement.

Feel free to query those at any time.

Anonymous no one of consequence December 25, 2014 12:34 AM  

bob k. mando: "that's not what's happening. my comments are *all* posting. i can reload the comment page or even bounce out to Home or go offsite and then return and my post will still be displayed on the new page load."

However it happens, they end up in the spam bin, and I'm fairly sure none of the other mods are doing it.

I have personally seen some of my own comments appear to post successfully, showing up at the bottom of the page, but then they are no longer present after a refresh (yes I know you said multiple refreshes, but I'll get to that in a bit). This is an easy thing to achieve with commenting systems; the server can respond to the comment-submission with a page containing your content, regardless of whether it actually spams it.

Doing so is a double win for the blog service. The commenter gets to view the webpage faster, and if he's a troll, he thinks his comment got through, and he may not bother to refresh to check.

Persistence across multiple refreshes might be the result of browser caching. When you refresh your window, the browser will send information to the server about the last time it fetched the page, or sometimes a tag identifying the last page content received. If blogspot is as loose about consistency as I think it is, it might tell your browser that there's no new content, even if your comment got spammed.

So what you've seen might be explicable by these concerns. And I'm the one who's been baleeting your baleet comments after unspamming your actual content.

Anonymous no one of consequence December 25, 2014 12:52 AM  

bob k. mando:
'no one of consequence', eh?

Markku and the Bunster both post under their own avatar names.

to be someone a control freak like Vox would delegate mod rights too, you've got to be someone that he trusts explicitly.

IF Vox has mentioned you previously
THEN you might have some tactical prowess.


1. It's better if the trolls don't know which regulars have mod privs. This keeps them guessing about the times of day when the comments are moderated.
2. I don't want people giving extra credence to the comments made under my usual name.
3. An extremely astute observer could probably figure out who I am from various things that various people have said on this blog. Please don't speculate here, because 1 and 2. If you solve the problem, you'll also know how to contact me for confirmation. And then we'll be best buddies.

Anonymous Eric the Red December 25, 2014 2:14 AM  

The left have fundamentally transformed society before Dear Leader hit the White House... he's just putting the final nails in the coffin. Underlying all that has happened is that unlike traditional conservativism, leftist ideology has no inherent self-limiting factors. The left can only keep pushing further and further on their agenda until ultimately they end up eating their own. Meanwhile, society disintegrates by becoming increasingly polarized and tribalized, in effect becoming a war of all against all. This also means that the law of the disappearing middle comes into effect, not just in economics which is most readily apparent, but also in cultural interactions such as police becoming more militarized, laws becoming so vast that enforcement becomes selectively politicized, and each potential societal grouping becoming radicalized to the point of being unable to compromise about anything. Whatever truth may have otherwise existed in the real world is ground to dust under the wheels of relentless M&N (memes and narratives).

Are these simply generalizations? No, because their effects are so obvious that they are happening with increasing frequency everywhere around us. Pick up any so-called news outlet, graph the incidents over time, and note the trends if you dare, because the leftist totalitarian emperor really has no clothes, and he's ugly as hell since he resembles his master Satan.

All that we are seeing is the gift of the left. It can only get worse. There are no good solutions anymore. Kiss goodbye whatever semblance of order and tradition you hoped you could depend upon, and prepare, because sooner or later the alligator will be at your door for you personally.

Blogger jon spencer December 25, 2014 10:43 AM  

The ruling that the death was a homicide is borderline inflammatory.
Here is a quote about homicide. Here goes, [“homicide” just means one person intentionally did something that led to the death of someone else. It doesn’t mean the death was intentional and it doesn’t mean it was a crime.].

Blogger LP 999/Eliza December 25, 2014 12:32 PM  

This was the last action that area needed. I suggest that the lack of fear in those shot and killed while in commish of the crime were playing with death.

Anonymous Anubis December 25, 2014 2:40 PM  

"I bet one loosie costs more than 5% of a pack, however. This isn't exactly a charity operation the guy it running"
He sold untaxed cigs, the NYC tax is over 100% of the price.

YIH- if you are going to talk about the "rarely seen" portion of the video for Rodney King don't forget the part about him being so high on crack that a police stun gun couldn't affect him. The cops did what they had to do with the tools they where allowed to have, as sleeper holds had just been banned in CA. The rarely seen portion of Gentle Mike is where he knocks the Asian liquor store clerk to the ground, walks away then charges at him, I wonder why leftists edit that part out? Also all the parents that sent their kids to sleep at MJs house would rather have gold than him in jail.

Standing on the side of civilization means you have to understand the unarmed British Bobbie could only police a civilized populace. Even the UK has a special SWAT team to deal with black gun crime named Operation Trident. In WWII when the Japanese abused the rules involving the white flag, the US adapted tactics appropriately. A choke hold requires both arms around the neck if you watch the loosie video you will see it was not one.

Blogger OldFan December 25, 2014 4:25 PM  

The problem of law enforcement and protection of the citizenry from crime has one well-worn solution: have a police force with broad powers and a fearsome reputation - and very small numbers. Make the selection and training process extremely strict and keep the numbers low. This means that only the most serious matters will be their concern and because of their high-level combat skills, they do NOT feel threatened by armed, capable citizens who protect themselves.

Giving every Federal agency a police force (e.g. The Dept of Agriculture's SWAT team!) is a disastrous idea. Lowering the standards to build up numbers leads to the mess we now have in Chicago or NYC: barely-competent cops with behavioral problems and incredibly poor marksmanship as the baseline.

We need a few Marshall Dillons, not millions of Keystone Cops. One riot, one Ranger.

Blogger Whiskey December 25, 2014 8:53 PM  

Its pretty easy to take a side. The Black protesters don't want Black people to have to obey the law. The protests are entirely about THAT. After all, over 300 Black people are murdered in Detroit yearly by other Black people. No protests. Even the murder of a nine month old Black baby boy drew no protests.

What exactly were the police supposed to do when Eric Garner resisted arrest? Just go away and leave him? Phasers on stun? He was huge, with a heart condition, and over 39 prior arrests. It wasn't his first arrest. For some reason he did not want to be arrested -- it took six cops to arrest him. [If you can say you can't breathe -- you can breathe. He was probably suffering a heart attack at that moment.]

Cops are militarized because of Black crime. Militaristic policing is what enables a place like NYC afflicted with diversity to be somewhat liveable. Taxi Driver territory is when the police back off.

White support for Cops is entirely as tribal as the Black opposition. Blacks want to be able to deal out crime and violence without any consequences. Whites want law and order. That's a pretty easy side to pick.

How long would YOU last Vox against a tide of Black crime? Even if you were Fumio Demura type bad-ass (and you're obviously not -- that takes a lifetime of training and doing nothing else) you'd still get a beat down 25 to one; and your stuff stolen while you were out at the end of the day.

I can say with confidence the hold on Garner's neck was not cutting off his airway, or even his carotid artery. A carotid hold will produce lights out in about ten-twenty seconds. Its hugely dangerous too btw.

Blogger Whiskey December 25, 2014 9:01 PM  

Also, Garner was a career criminal with arrests for receiving and selling stolen property, burglary, armed robbery, and other hard core crimes just short of murder. Selling loosies was unlikely to be a big payoff for a guy so inclined to the criminal side of life. It has been alleged that Garner was running a car burglary ring and acting as a lookout, that he did not want to get arrested because he had incriminating stuff on him regarding said ring.

The Homicide ruling as a political statement as bogus as Zimmerman's charge or taking Wilson to the Grand Jury. Boob bait for the Black mob. Sharpton stuff.

Blogger Whiskey December 25, 2014 9:04 PM  

Final comment and I'm out. Vox asks how the police were enforcing the law? As a probationary criminal, Garner could not be selling loosies and could be taken into custody on suspicion of being the lookout/head for the burglary ring. Which explains his resistance. Which is in itself unlawful.

Lets get real. There is a huge difference between say, Reese Witherspoon tiny woman resisting arrest, and a huge Black guy. Garner died because of his obesity, heart condition, and fighting/resisting the police. Regrettable but nothing unusual other than Garner was Black.

One final comment -- Merry Christmas to all.

Anonymous Discard December 26, 2014 7:44 PM  

I think you're way wrong on some topics, Whiskey, but sometimes not. I always read your topic paragraph, at least.

Blogger Joshua Sinistar December 28, 2014 5:42 AM  

Look, I don't see why all of you are so worked up about this. The police usually protect blacks from Whites and others that want to kill them, so blacks showing their usual depraved ingrate attitude attack and kill them. This system must die. Its bad for your health. Most police are just uneducated midwits who want a job. They are not themselves evil, but merely working for evil.
You have to see the Big Picture. The Real Evil is the Villains at the top that corrupt the system and oppress Whites. Focusing on the henchmen is missing the forest for the trees.
You remind me of Batman who has spent 60 years arresting insane criminals like The Joker, only to have him escape and kill again. Judge Dredd would forget about The Joker and kill the people in the system that keep letting him go.
Focus on the Cancer and ignore the symptoms. The symptoms will go away once the Cancer dies. These policemen would mill around like ants without the Government telling them what to do...

OpenID cailcorishev December 28, 2014 10:01 AM  

Joshua, we're not "worked up" about it; we're observing it and commenting upon it, maybe enjoying it a bit. Can you see the difference?

This is tribalism in action, in a country where tribalism isn't supposed to exist. The police are a tribe. Blacks are a tribe. Both reliably put their tribal interests ahead of abstract concerns like justice or the future. Of course, there are black police, so one might wonder which side they're on, but I don't suppose anyone in the media is crazy enough to ask them (my guess: on the side of their pensions).

Blogger Joshua Sinistar December 29, 2014 11:25 PM  

@cailcorishev You're half right. The blacks are a tribe. They're a much bigger tribe because their ancestral tribes have disappeared and they have been sicced on Whites.
However, police are not a tribe. They're mercenaries. They're soldiers of fortune like The Foreign Legion. They're paid to keep the Empire intact.
However, mercenaries are not the real enemy. The work for pay, no other reason. If you want to be rid of them, then you have to focus on their paymasters. The banksters who print funny money and send your factories overseas, while displacing you with Meskins.
All power is abuse. If you don't want to be abused, then focus it elsewhere. As long as police have to shoot blacks they have no ammunition for you.
All of this is good for me. The idea was to create attacks on Whites, but somewhere along the way the attacks hit the Government. When the enemy fights itself, its ALL GOOD!

OpenID ymarsakar December 30, 2014 9:52 AM  

Cops are militarized because of Black crime. Militaristic policing is what enables a place like NYC afflicted with diversity to be somewhat liveable.

Cops are militarized because DHS and Democrats are funding them.

What the riots of the past did was to make cops prefer to disarm citizens, like they illegally did at New Orleans.

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