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Sunday, December 28, 2014

The dissolution of order

The cracks in US society are widening:
Police officers showed their contempt for New York's mayor on Saturday, turning their backs as he addressed a funeral for a fallen colleague.

Rafael Ramos was shot dead alongside his partner Wenjian Liu last weekend amid nationwide protests accusing police of racism and using excessive force against black people. Mr Liu's funeral will be held in the coming days.

Officers have accused Bill de Blasio, the city mayor, of having blood on his hands for failing to give his full backing to officers while demonstrators raged at the death of Eric Garner, a black man who died in a police choke hold.

While he received polite applause inside the church, hundreds of officers outside turned their backs to screens showing the service.
Notice the names. Ramos. Liu. De Blasio. Ironically, only Garner, the black man, had an traditional American name. They are names that would cause a progressive's heart to leap for joy, were it not for the context of the story in which the names appear. And I would be remiss to fail to mention Ismaaiyl Brinsley.


This is what multiculturalism in a multi-ethnic society looks like. Violence, lack of respect for authority, rival power centers, and ongoing societal fragmentation. Expect more of it.

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74 Comments:

Anonymous PhillipGeorge(c)2014 December 28, 2014 7:13 AM  

Merry Christmas Vox
It became a classic to that generation: "Elvis has left the building"
While people still cried "encore" and others couldn't believe the show was over: the show was over.
It's not that Islam is strong, nor "progressives" are powerful. It's the Holy Spirit has left the building.
A thousand plus years of Common Law, Rule of Law, Christian foundation Jurisprudence is going up in smoke because people turned their backs on God. The Nation has done a 180 degrees turn since Washington's first congressional siting prayer dedication. Cologne on a corpse doesn't effect the outcome.

Don't want to sound negative, but when the pessimist and the realist agree ........we're just counting down the days now.

Anonymous Cliftonb as Mcro.t0nal_piltdown December 28, 2014 7:37 AM  

There are no racially motivated hate crimes in an ethnically homogenous society. There isn't any sexism where there is mutual respect for the complimentary differences between the sexes. There isn't any fat-shaming in nation where everyone values health and fitness.

I'm always amazed at the aghast reaction to something so blatantly obvious.

Blogger Cataline Sergius December 28, 2014 7:50 AM  

Then there is Bill de Blasio's real name, the astoundingly white and rather Aryan; Warren Wilhelm.

The man is about as authentically Italian as Little Caesar's Pizza.

Anonymous Omar's Running Shoes December 28, 2014 8:04 AM  

"While he received polite applause inside the church..."

Everything else I already know inside and out, no surprises, but little snippets like the above stand out to me. It was a church. A funeral service in a church. Who applauds at a funeral service? Who applauds in a church? Why was he even there? It's one thing to pay your respects as a politican RESPECTFULLY, but all things considered, who asked for this guy to give a speech at the funeral service of one of the cops he was- at least in part- responsible for the death of?

Anonymous zen0 December 28, 2014 8:16 AM  

> The man is about as authentically Italian as Little Caesar's Pizza.

It's his mother's maiden name, so there must be some Italian seasoning in there somewhere.
The weird thing is he married a lesbian and had kids. Some funny business going on there.

Anonymous MareNostrum December 28, 2014 8:18 AM  

The link "are widening" contains mailto and clicking on it do not opens the specified web page.

Blogger wdriver December 28, 2014 8:21 AM  

"... the death of Eric Garner, a black man who died in a police choke hold"

Garner did not die in 'a police choke hold.' He died in the ambulance on the way to the hospital. The man had several detrimental medical conditions that finally caught up with him on this day - asthma, heart, weight, etc. Such willful ignorance and studied denial as the excerpted item illustrates should not pass without comment.

Blogger Larry December 28, 2014 8:37 AM  

"Garner did not die in 'a police choke hold.' He died in the ambulance on the way to the hospital. The man had several detrimental medical conditions that finally caught up with him on this day - asthma, heart, weight, etc. Such willful ignorance and studied denial as the excerpted item illustrates should not pass without comment"

Can you get your head any deeper in?

Anonymous hygate December 28, 2014 8:39 AM  

Well the NYPD seems pretty diverse, so in this case the divide seems, to me, to be more between the police and the mayor, who they see as not supporting them, and not between ethnic groups.

Now, the purpose of the "demonstrations" is obviously to forment racial resentment among inner-city blacks, making policing of their communities increasingly impossible, increasing the misery of those that reside in them.

Since a big mover behind these "protests" is ANSWER, a communist organization, I can only surmise that they are trying to increase "proletariats''" misery so as to motivate them to revolution.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan December 28, 2014 8:40 AM  

One thing I notice is that on the propaganda channel CNN the producers of the information made certain to have the whitest of white people prominently displayed to strut their morality peacock feathers to give it legitimacy. There is the weak spot in the Left, ready to be exploited, they still need to sell their agenda with whites spokespeople, people of color still sit in the mascot seat.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan December 28, 2014 8:49 AM  

Speaking of the names of the vibrant, the latest man to throw his hat in the ring for president in the 2016 "heads we win tales you lose" race is Camacho. Now there is a man who best represents 'Murka in the age of diversity, tolerance and multiculturalist relativism. "F*ck yeah"

Blogger Cataline Sergius December 28, 2014 9:00 AM  

The hipsters who missed "gritty" NYC of the 70s & 80s are going to get their wish...

The three card monte dealers have already moved back into Times Square in the past couple of days.

Talk about a "virgin field"! Those guys are raking it in hand over fist. Hipsters are the most astonishing rubes The City has ever seen.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza December 28, 2014 9:09 AM  

Now, now, Don Lemon was stuck interviewing that boomer model lady over rape-rape Cosby claims. What a clown show, so is all this solidarity with the uniforms and mayor of the junkiest snowflake city. All hollow, all sad. The SJW ran news is in such a hamster spin I wonder what stockholders are going to do - are there any stats on dropping cable subscriptions? Anything to ruin Christmas...

I wasn;t aware that New York was still around, didn't they leave America a long time ago?

Anonymous Stilicho December 28, 2014 9:12 AM  

The millennial hipsters are the first generation to grow up with the now ubiquitous McNugget. The correlation is simply too amusing to ignore. I dub thee the McNugget Generation.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza December 28, 2014 9:37 AM  

Aside from shoring up fictitious pensions police and teachers have another problem, a generation that is going to riot. 1000 show up all emo and angry. They begin to tweet on the phones in their masks, its a strange but peaceful protest. or 1000 show up and destroy everything in the name of fairness.

I am still waiting holding out hope they disown their silly degrees, burn them on site and disappear to a forign country. Running is all they can do from their debt and futureless, hopeless haircuts and jeans.

Anonymous Susan December 28, 2014 9:38 AM  

Cataline, evidently DeBlasio is his mom's maiden name. With his set of political views, I am not sure that even NYC was reading for a Warren Wilhelm as their mayor.
The jokes would have been awesome though.

Anonymous Sarcophilus December 28, 2014 9:54 AM  

This illustrates that the police have decided they aren't any different. They are the blue gang of thugs. Just as most in Ferguson are the black gang of thugs.

"Was a criminal act of violence or theft committed?" is the wrong question, and irrelevant in the eyes of the members. The only question is "Is he a member of our group?".

Although some whites still remember the old images, daily it is shown a few at a time on youtube or vimeo, that going through a speed trap area or drug or dui enforcement is as dangerous as going through the ghetto due to the gangs operating them.

It will reach a tipping point. But then the citizens will be the enemy they fear.

Blogger wdriver December 28, 2014 10:59 AM  

Larry:"Can you get your head any deeper in?" Not until you get out of the way, my friend. There's more to the story than "a black man who died in a police choke hold".

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Death of Eric Garner
Eric Garner facebook.jpg
Facebook profile photo of Eric Garner
Date July 17, 2014
approx. 3:30-4:45 p.m. (EST)
Location 202 Bay Street, Staten Island, New York
Coordinates Location of event: 40.637147°N 74.076574°W
Cause Compression of neck (choke hold), compression of chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police[1][2]
First reporter Daily News (New York)
Filmed by Ramsey Orta[3]
Participants Daniel Pantaleo and Justin Damico (New York City Police Department (NYPD) officers)
Outcome No indictment of Pantaleo[4][5]
Deaths 1
Litigation $75 million lawsuit filed by Garner's family against New York City, the NYPD, and six NYPD officers[6]
On July 17, 2014, Eric Garner died in Staten Island, New York, after a police officer put him in a grappling hold. Many have described it as a chokehold,[7][8][9][3] while others argue it was a headlock and that no choking took place;[10][11][12][13] the use of chokeholds is a violation of New York City Police Department (NYPD) policy.[10]
When officers moved to arrest Garner on suspicion of selling "loosies" (single cigarettes) from packs without tax stamps,[14] Garner pulled his arms away from officer Daniel Pantaleo. Pantaleo then put his arm around the much taller Garner's neck and pulled him backwards and down onto the ground.[15][16] After Pantaleo removed his arm from Garner's neck, he pushed Garner's head into the ground while four officers moved to restrain Garner, who repeated "I can't breathe" eleven times while lying facedown on the sidewalk.[17][18][5] After Garner lost consciousness, officers turned him onto his side to ease his breathing. Garner remained lying on the sidewalk for seven minutes while the officers waited for an ambulance to arrive.[19] The officers and EMTs did not perform CPR on Garner at the scene because they believed that Garner was breathing and that it would be improper to perform CPR on someone who was still breathing.[20] He was pronounced dead on arrival at the hospital approximately one hour later.[21][22]
Medical examiners concluded that Garner was killed by "compression of neck (choke hold), compression of chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police",[23][24] though no damage to his windpipe or neck bones was found.[25] The medical examiner ruled Garner's death a homicide, indicating that he was killed by either a single person or multiple people; however, homicide does not by itself imply murder as in negligent homicide or even wrongdoing as in justifiable homicide.[26][27][28]
On December 3, 2014, a grand jury decided not to indict officer Pantaleo.[29] The event stirred public protests[30] and rallies[31] with charges of police brutality. The Justice Department announced an independent federal investigation.[32]

Blogger wdriver December 28, 2014 11:09 AM  

Just as there is more to the story than 'Police Officer Darren Wilson Shot and Killed Michael Brown, an Unarmed Black Teenager." I've noticed in the many commentaries on this incident that reporters, pundits, commenters pick and choose which details they want to include and which details they want to ignore - if they have a malignant point to make. My concern is the same as many who visit this site - we want the 'truf, and nothing but the 'truf' as far as it can be determined.

Anonymous Michael December 28, 2014 11:19 AM  

Vox, "This is what multiculturalism in a multi-ethnic society looks like. Violence, lack of respect for authority, rival power centers, and ongoing societal fragmentation. Expect more of it."


Vice President Biden, who attended the funeral, promised that the “incredibly diverse city can and will show the nation how to bridge any divide.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/at-funeral-for-nypds-rafael-ramos-police-pay-their-respects-show-their-frustrations/2014/12/27/f6c37e82-8df8-11e4-a085-34e9b9f09a58_story.html

You see, no matter the problems diversity has wrought throughout the course of history, the solution is always more diversity, because diversity is the answer to everything.

Therefore, extrapolating from Biden's statement, dump some Siamese Fighting Fish in the same tank as Goldfish, Rainbow Fish and Black Skirt Tetra, for diversity's sake. Let us know how that turns out.

Blogger ScuzzaMan December 28, 2014 11:25 AM  

Vox

You're on record as predicting the break-up of the American Soviet, (iirc) by 2033.

I think you will also find historic examples of the kind of crumbling dissolution this story represents, side by side with an overwhelmingly powerful centre. If you think about the long decline of the Roman empire, for example, you can see that the authority of Rome was loose and ever-loosening, allegiance to her a direct function of the proximity of the Roman legions. Like the USA today, the legions made her unbeatable in a standup toe-to-toe conflict, but she couldn't police the entire empire simultaneously, and gradually she made enemies of all those who had previously been her allies, and the rewards accruing to rebellion (outright or covert) began to increasingly outweigh the rewards accruing to loyalty.

Today, as you point out, nuclear weapons, and the loosely-held monopoly on them, complicate matters somewhat. How exactly that will play out, nobody knows for certain. We don't have any historic examples to guide us.

What we do have examples of is the US government's willingness to use those weapons for what were largely irrelevant purposes, a long-term strategy entirely unconnected to the immediate tactical reality, i.e. Japan was already defeated, and the use of nuclear weapons against her was a message sent to the USSR and any others who might entertain designs on US territory, or otherwise embarrass her.

So, I don't disagree that the US in 2033 will show signs of increasingly fractured loyalties, allegiances, cultures, income distributions, hygiene standards, personal ethics, and etc ...

Even so, irrespective of how often they demonstrate to themselves that the tighter they grip the more their own people will slip from their fingers, I don't expect the Washington crowd to ever do anything but tighten their grip. These are not people for whom self-restraint has ever been a valued principle. More of what just failed is their all in all. When the time comes that nukes seem to be their only option to hold on to power and privilege, they will go nuclear.

What happens then is anyone's guess, but like you I'm guessing "peace" is not it ...

Blogger ScuzzaMan December 28, 2014 11:26 AM  

A shorter way of saying that might be simply to note that the Roman Empire was dead long before Rome died.

Anonymous Giuseppe December 28, 2014 11:26 AM  

Vox,
my thought experiment fail.
I started thinking this: In a multicultural society where you can indoctrinate people in a way that they respond, that is by the indoctrination of actual justice and enforcement of same (I know...utopian) surely, the sub-tribal groups would potentially still exist but in general give over to the overall tribe, much as the cops seem to be doing in this story.

And if you had really decent, well run, well enforced justice, people would come to respect and like the cops (I know, I know, no, I am not on any drugs...) and why would that not work as a multicultural society?

Then (even before going through all the holes in my quasi marxist utopic idea) I read PhilipGeorge's first comment on this thread and...well...consider I am still analysing everything in Christianity with a skeptical eye (not because it doesn't work, but because I am honestly looking to see if there are any gaps, as it seems every time I think I found one and I look deeper it turns out, no, I was wrong) and yeah...well... Occam's razor.

It is a fact that a society that was accountably Christian (as opposed to Churchian) would not suffer from any of these issues, pretty much regardless of race I think.
Though...there is still that Utopian problem. So yeah...I don't know what the practical answer is either. Other than put armour on, man the walls of whatever little castle I may be standing near or in, and repel the demonic hordes as long as I can lift up my sword.

Anonymous liljoe December 28, 2014 11:28 AM  

sooo his death was natural and 6 fatso cops sitting on his chest and choking him out had nothing to do with it. he was going to have a heart attack that afternoon and it was just coincidental that he was assaulted by NY's finest that same afternoon? who's in denial again?

Anonymous zen0 December 28, 2014 11:29 AM  

> You see, no matter the problems diversity has wrought throughout the course of history, the solution is always more diversity, because diversity is the answer to everything.

Demographic Keynsianism with devaluation of genetic currency.

OpenID cailcorishev December 28, 2014 11:42 AM  

My concern is the same as many who visit this site - we want the 'truf, and nothing but the 'truf' as far as it can be determined.

We seem to be the only ones. The cops and their conservative/Republican fans, including people I know, reflexively support the cops in all these situations, essentially taking a, "Well, he must have been dirty or they wouldn't have been there, so no great loss," attitude on the dicier ones. Blacks and leftists (as long as they aren't in jobs where they need the support of the cops) automatically assume the dead black guy was an innocent victim in every case.

The only place I've seen people try to consider the facts on a case-by-case basis, sometimes deciding for one side or the other and sometimes saying the fault appears shared or can't be determined, is on supposedly "extremist" blogs like this one.

Anonymous liljoe December 28, 2014 11:57 AM  

it's really a shame he had to die on the same day the cops gang tackled him for selling (allegedly) untaxed cigs, thus causing those poor innocent cops to have to endure agrand jury.
i wonder why Pantaleo's previous arrestees who successfully sued the city of NY weren't vetted along these lines as well.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus December 28, 2014 12:04 PM  

This is what multiculturalism in a multi-ethnic society looks like. Violence, lack of respect for authority, rival power centers, and ongoing societal fragmentation. Expect more of it.

Yes.

Blogger ThirdMonkey December 28, 2014 12:08 PM  

As long as people vote for tyrants who pass tyrannical laws and enforce them with tyrannical police, these things will continue. NYPD is mad because the tyrant wouldn't support their blue tyranny, but instead supported mob tyranny. New Yorkers are reaping the mayor, police, and mob they have sowed.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus December 28, 2014 12:36 PM  

Mr.MantraMan: "Speaking of the names of the vibrant, the latest man to throw his hat in the ring for president in the 2016 "heads we win tales you lose" race is Camacho."

The one foretold by prophecy? Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho?

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus December 28, 2014 12:48 PM  

ThirdMonkey: "As long as people vote for tyrants who pass tyrannical laws and enforce them with tyrannical police, these things will continue. NYPD is mad because the tyrant wouldn't support their blue tyranny, but instead supported mob tyranny. New Yorkers are reaping the mayor, police, and mob they have sowed."

People sometimes get the government they deserve; more often they get the governments that are imposed on them. This is true whether the means of conquest are as blatant as a Mongol invasion or as subtle as anti-white intellectual movements supported by academia, the entertainment mass media and the news mass media. The bottom line for the average Joe and Jane is the same: "we can't beat that."

Anonymous The Night Porter December 28, 2014 1:12 PM  

I am not "hipster" but I most certainly miss the NYC of the 1980's. Even since 2001, NY has become a barren, sterile joyless Singapore. We who moved here for a certain lifestyle were deprived of it by 1) the Bloomberg nanny state, 2) the Giuliani military-style policing, and 3) the monumental lameness of Millennials, who are autistic goody-goodies with less fire in their youth than Gen Xers have in their forties. So yes, I welcome a little chaos to start moving things around. We need movement. This will be good for everyone, including white nationalist types. Anything is preferable to the current situation, which is suffocating. I voted for Wiener, who was the only relatively normal heterosexual male left in NY politics, but if the Communist wants to go down the road of 1970's, it will be more fun.

Anonymous Anubis December 28, 2014 2:03 PM  

"sooo his death was natural and 6 fatso cops sitting on his chest and choking him out had nothing to do with it"

Simply laying an obese black with full sickle cell on his belly is as bad as letting him get on an airplane. Some Asian & white people actually put each other in sleeper holds as part of iron neck training. If you want to blame someone blame the black woman sergeant in charge.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1799937/
http://www.aafp.org/afp/1998/0415/p1907.html
Patients with sickle cell anemia should not ascend to high altitudes because they can have a sickle crisis at elevations as low as 1,500 m (4,900 ft). (lower than Denver)

"The three card monte dealers have already moved back into Times Square in the past couple of days."
Did the hookers ever leave Times Square its hard to tell?

Anonymous fish December 28, 2014 2:21 PM  

The weird thing is he married a lesbian and had kids. Some funny business going on there.

For further explanation feel free to look into "Cuckold Porn"! You might even get to see Wilhelm in one!

Anonymous Aviator December 28, 2014 3:24 PM  

Reminds me of a homo vacationing in Hawaii with his family.

Anonymous Sheila December 28, 2014 4:42 PM  

While I'm not a general fan of Nicholas Stix, and I both distrust the police yet support them when they're dealing with the vibrants, I found Stix's recent post at VDare very much to the point.

Blogger Daniel December 28, 2014 4:51 PM  

There goes the whole "cops are worthy of respect because they are in a position of authority" argument. If the community turned its backs on those same cops, they'd find bullets in their spines.

Blogger Kirk Parker December 28, 2014 6:01 PM  

"Japan was already defeated"

FOAD you idiot (from someone descended from a Pacific War veteran who may well not have been here if the war had continued to an invasion of the Home Islands.)

FUFUFUFU.....

Blogger Joshua Sinistar December 28, 2014 6:24 PM  

I find all your concern for black terrorism touching, really. Sure the cops are behaving badly, but personally if they do it by reducing the diverse population, I sleep better at night.
What reason could they have for killing blacks? Do they need a reason? it seems to me blacks bring enough reasons of their own that you really don't have to have any more.
The blacks are burning shit down and making the Government look bad, and some are killed by cops along the way. So?
Never interrupt the enemy when he's making a mistake!

Anonymous VD December 28, 2014 6:59 PM  

FOAD you idiot (from someone descended from a Pacific War veteran who may well not have been here if the war had continued to an invasion of the Home Islands.)

Shut up, Kirk. The Home Islands were never going to be invaded. And my grandfather fought on Guadacanal, Tarawa, and Saipan, so don't even try to play that card. The Japanese had been trying to surrender for months.

Do your homework, don't resort to useless kneejerk rhetoric here.

Blogger Kirk Parker December 28, 2014 7:33 PM  

VD, sorry: I've read the casualty estimates, among other things, and even if they were off by a whole order of magnitude, the US losses would have been horrific.

As far as the likelihood, you DO know about the military plot to abscond with the emperor's surrender broadcast tape, right?

Bottom line: it's your site, and I'll shut up (or go away forever) at your bidding, but anybody who thinks the Japanese were trying to surrender as a whole gets my opposition.

Anonymous jayb December 28, 2014 7:56 PM  

Kirk, where did anyone say they were 'as a whole'?

VD, but was it *unconditional* surrender, with fallout? My very cynical side describes the nuke attacks as hideous science experiments.

Blogger Kirk Parker December 28, 2014 8:08 PM  

jayb: exactly my point! Japanese society was incredibly fractured at that point, and the hard-core segment of the army was into Resist At All Costs.

Anonymous Discard December 28, 2014 8:25 PM  

That some Japanese were trying to end the war before an invasion means as much as the fact that some Germans were trying to end the war in 1944. Those with the power to decide and to enforce their decisions were not willing to surrender. And demonstrably, the Japanese fighting man would fight to the death if so ordered, no matter the odds. Is there any evidence that the Japanese PTB were ready to give up? I understand that the decision was only made after the A-bomb, and after the Soviet entry into the war, when Hirohito bestirred himself to speak up. Am I mistaken?

Anonymous Just Asking December 28, 2014 9:11 PM  

If Garner had been just as obese and sick but white rather than black, would his death have been anything more than a blip on the NYC evening news?

Anonymous Stating the obvious December 28, 2014 9:13 PM  


This is what multiculturalism in a multi-ethnic society looks like. Violence, lack of respect for authority, rival power centers, and ongoing societal fragmentation.


In other words, tribalism on a large scale. That's not a nation. That's something else.

OpenID ymarsakar December 28, 2014 9:17 PM  

The Japanese military junta was one faction, but most of Japan was loyal to their nation and their Emperor, which was almost like an embodiment of their national progress or longevity.

The scientists at the time told the Emperor that America only had one nuke, because uranium was hard to process at the time. The second nuke was plutonium, and that meant Hirohito realized that America could be mass manufacturing those already.

Then there was that military plot to kidnap Hirohito and put him under house arrest the night before he gave the radio address to order the surrender. That was only stopped because Tokyo went lights out, of all things, when an American bomber was spotted. The ambush squad couldn't figure out where Hirohito's motorcade was, since it was pitch dark.

The military aristocrats were hard to figure out. They had, for the most part, became the dominant faction in Japan during the militarization of Japanese society, in part due to desire to maintain progress with Western military and economic reforms, outpacing the Chinese disaster in the (Sick man of Asia). The Japanese aristocracy and bureaucracy's motivations were hard to figure out. Most of them conducted seppuko and hara kiri ed themselves off the map, after the surrender. Many of them were trying to buy time for Japan, trying to inch out some kind of conditioned surrender because they wanted to save the Emperor via the treaty. If that meant bringing in the Russians, via a German Berlin split, or wiping out half of Japan in the process, it didn't really seem to bother them.

But it did both Emperor Hirohito, enough at the end.

Now if Japan nuked the wrong city and the Emperor died, funny things might have happened. With a Japan split like Germany was split (and still is, if you look at German political voting patterns). I don't think the Russians would have liked the whole anime industry and sub culture there, that developed afterwords.


Unless Japan surrendered before the Russians invaded, there would be problems. Truman wasn't a communist sympathizer like FDR was. That was the post war strategic objective using the nukes.

America needed to cut the Russians off, by forcing a unilateral surrender sooner rather than later. The Russians needed to grab more territory before Japan surrendered. The Japanese were split on what "unconditional" meant, some wanted to go for conditioned surrender, all would obey what the Emperor decided, even though most of the war was run by the bureaucrats and military junta aristocrats.

Strategy and logistics do not bow down to limited tactical analysis of short sighted individuals. A misguided, incompetent, or near sighted strategist is the one that conforms the use of strategic weapons to "tactical objectives" and the "tactical realities of Japan".

OpenID ymarsakar December 28, 2014 9:32 PM  

Now if Japan nuked the wrong city and the Emperor died, funny things might have happened.

Correction, if America nuked the wrong city...

Historically, Japan's concept of the Emperor was often not quite what it seemed. It wasn't a god king setup or a divine monarchy, because even though the Emperor could order a Shogun to commit ritual suicide, the strong Shoguns controlled the budget of the Imperial Palace, so often times Imperial families might be starving if they didn't do as the Shogun or military hierarchy wanted.

This is why it looks weird to Westerners how Emperor Hirohito could command immediate obedience, yet seemed like a patsy or figure head for much of his reign. America could have gone for a decapitation strategy like with Saddam Hussein (the other Hussein that dislikes America), but the cultural and military teams studying Japanese psychology chose a different method.

The selection criteria for the strategic deployment of strategic nuclear weapons, was also based a lot more on political and cultural significance than anything else. The first target was a weapons and munitions center, but weather made that target invalid. Yokohama and Kyoto were also considered as targets.

All in all, they did get the result they sought for, so I would consider it a success. If all they ended up with at the end were a few Japanese incinerated and nuclear bombarded cities, with a Russian occupation and a bunch of dead American Marines... well, that would be a waste and a failure. Just like the Japanese justification for WWII, to free Asia and make it as prosperous and as free as the Western world...

Blogger Joshua Sinistar December 28, 2014 10:58 PM  

Why this fascination for Japan? All they do is anime and beast porn. Our new enemy is implacable and going to die before they stop, and the Muslims aren't reasonable either.
America is still a Nation State. It is merely immersed in a wave of foreign invaders which need to be killed or expelled. Only the White population from Western Europe has any chance of being Real Americans.
No one else has the intellect or cultural resonance to become part of the Founding Father's Vision of America. America was only made for their progeny and countrymen, no other people can understand or be a part of the Nation they founded. Blood is thicker than culture.

Anonymous The other skeptuc December 28, 2014 11:06 PM  

The NT Times has been stirring up shit and ignoring murders that do not fit the narrative.

Anonymous BigGaySteve December 28, 2014 11:34 PM  

"If Garner had been just as obese and sick but white rather than black, would his death have been anything more than a blip on the NYC evening news?"

Nope 2 weeks after the Ferguson liquor store robber was killed a black muslim serial killer Mohammad Ali Brown was caught after killing gays in 3 states using the social media app grinder to find his targets. No main stream coverage at all, but if races reversed it would be =(Mat Shepard x Skittles) squared.

Blogger ScuzzaMan December 29, 2014 3:52 AM  

Well, you know, I wasn't there, and i doubt you were, either. (In the White House, I mean.) But here's the words of the people who (A) were there, and (B) knew a little bit about the military and political situation of the time. Now, maybe not as much as you, but ...

"FDR and Churchill were both war criminals. The Japanese were already suing for surrender, and wisdom had nothing to do with the demand for total surrender, it was about establishing a vassal state, what many US "diplomats" and politicians have since openly called a "permanent aircraft carrier in the pacific".

Here are some quotes from a post I made in January to another of your (equally ignorant) countrymen:

"Japan was already defeated and dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary."

These are neither the words of a Japanese, nor of a self-loathing lefty Californian revisionist terrorist-supporter, nor of a man unschooled in the realities of war.

These are the words of 5-Star General Dwight D. Eisenhower, Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces in Europe and later president of the United States.

Because Eisenhower knew, as did the entire senior U.S. officer corps, that by the middle of 1945 Japan was utterly defenseless. The afore-mentioned firebombings of Tokyo and Osaka are substantial evidence of this proposition, as is the same complete lack of any capability to prevent the nuke attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

"The Japanese position was hopeless even before the first atomic bomb fell because the Japanese had lost control of their own air [space]."

--Henry H. Arnold, Commanding General of the U.S. Army Air Forces.

"The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace. The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military point of view, in the defeat of Japan."

--Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet.

"The use of [the atomic bombs] at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender."

--Admiral William D. Leahy, Chief of Staff to President Truman.

Ironically, it was largely Truman who was cheerleader for the revisionist cause, inventing the "saving a million american lives" lie, which as Nimitz implied was invented for purely political purposes, having no military purpose.

So, I got your message: you are ok with mass murder and genocide as long it is not your people being killed, and in your head this makes you one of the good guys. Message received and understood."

Feel free to choose however much of that applies to you.

Blogger ScuzzaMan December 29, 2014 3:55 AM  

While we're here, feel free also to address my actual point, rather than getting in high flouncing dudgeon about a side issue.

Anonymous Bz December 29, 2014 4:53 AM  

"This is why it looks weird to Westerners how Emperor Hirohito could command immediate obedience, yet seemed like a patsy or figure head for much of his reign."

Weird? Not at all. Call him, say, President Hirohito and it seems entirely natural.

Anonymous George of the Jungle December 29, 2014 5:30 AM  

In the coming war of tribes against tribes, it might be a good idea to advertize that your rounds have been dipped in bacon grease. This will add a little spice to the thoughts of those members of The-Religion-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named as they ponder WWmD (Piss Be Upon Him).

Anonymous Discard December 29, 2014 6:40 AM  

ScuzzaMan: The Japanese on Iwo Jima were already defeated when the Marines showed up, but they fought to the end anyway.
The Japanese on Okinawa were in a hopeless position because they had lost control of their own air space, as well as the surrounding sea, but they fought to the end anyway.
The Japanese in Japan itself were in a hopeless position, but why would anyone imagine that they would not fight to the end, given that they had done so on dozens of islands that were not even Japanese?

When did the Japanese sue for peace? What date? And who were these Japanese suing for peace? Were they actually the people in authority?

Have you heard of the "Admirals' Revolt"? That took place after WW2 when the Navy feared losing its position as the most important service to the new USAF. The A-bomb threatened the Navy's share of the money pot, and even its strategic relevance. The Navy brass were not disinterested observers, they had a personal stake in de-emphasizing the role of the Air Force. They had been Roosevelt's favorite branch of the military, getting preference in personal and funding over the Army, and the tit was being shut off in favor of the new elite service. Those comments you quote were part of the scramble for position in the shrunken post-war military.

Why is death by A-bomb so much more objectionable than death by some other means? I guess that you're OK with mass slaughter as long as the poor fuckers die from starvation had the U.S. destroyed the rail networks and coastal shipping that distribute food? As long as they die from carpet bombing and artillery barrages preceding American infantry attacks? As long as they're burned to death with napalm instead of radiation?
And leave off the lies. At no time did the U.S. plan to exterminate the Japanese people. That's what "genocide" means, you know. Like we did with the Germans, we kept on killing them until they agreed to quit fighting. Then we stopped.

BTW, neither Eisenhower, Nimitz, Leahy, nor Arnold were in the White House in 1945.

Anonymous Eric the Red December 29, 2014 7:11 AM  

This nonsense about the Japanese suing for peace is nothing but another meme without substance. Exactly what part of Japanese society was extending an olive branch, who did they speak for in the Japanese government, and how much power did they actually have over each and every part of the Japanese military? I have never seen any historian definitively answer these questions.

In addition, there is a larger question that reappears from time to time on various thread of this blog, specifically, if you have not completely convinced the populace that they are utterly defeated and have no hope of furthering the conflict by any means short-term and long-term, then you in point of fact have not yet won the war. Two atomic bombs were as much necessary psychological warfare as they were destruction of physical resources. Furthermore, that psychological impact was not only for the Japanese, but it also was for the damn Soviets, who were abruptly stopped in their attempt to partition Japan only getting as far as the Kurils.

The ridiculous attempt at revisionist history is the hallmark of intellectual slatterns like Howard Zinn and Oliver Stone. It bears no resemblance to the events and thinking that was actually occurring back in 1945, and it is absurd to keep pushing its stinking carcass into any serious historical discussion.

(On a personal note, I probably wouldn't be here if it weren't for Fat Man and Little Boy, as my father was in the middle of the Pacific being shipped with his unit to fight the last stand the Japanese were making on the home islands.)

Blogger jjc December 29, 2014 10:04 AM  

This from Taki's mag about DeBlasio's name:

"De Blasio—who was born Warren Wilhelm, Jr. but eventually changed his name as a way of snubbing his father and paying homage to his Italian mother..."

http://takimag.com/article/the_week_that_perished_december_29_2014/print#ixzz3NIbJTxch

Blogger ScuzzaMan December 29, 2014 11:08 AM  

Spin it all you like, guys.

The Japanese (yes, the legitimate authority in control) had been suing for peace for months before August '45. The sticking point was not military at all, but the status of the Emperor.

Stop jerking off your father's corpses and read a history book or two.

(Oh yes, I know: how terribly irreverent of me. Do we get another Colonel Jessup speech now, or have you dreamed up some new line of bullshit? Just for the record, my father served in North Africa, Italy, Germany, and for several years in the post-war occupation of Japan. Who gives a flying fuck?)

Sure, you two know more than Nimitz, Leahy, and Eisenhower combined.

You should write a book.

You could include this quote, from the guy who was in the White House:

"Nobody is more disturbed over the use of Atomic bombs than I am but I was greatly disturbed over the unwarranted attack by the Japanese on Pearl Harbor and their murder of our prisoners of war. The only language they seem to understand is the one we have been using to bombard them."

Doesn't sound a lot like trying to save lives to me.

I (briefly) wonder, too, about this idea of the Japanese people fighting to the death, no matter what. When their government surrendered, they became the textbook post-war occupation. The allies re-wrote their Constitution, remodelled their economy, and made their culture over in our image. The fanatical culture of their military you could probably argue, but of the civilian population? Hardly.

No, I don't think dying by nuke is any different to dying any other way. But you're not the first to make that point, either:

"Suppose that, when we invaded Germany in early 1945, our leaders had believed that executing all the inhabitants of Aachen, or Trier, or some other Rhineland city would finally break the will of the Germans and lead them to surrender. In this way, the war might have ended quickly, saving the lives of many Allied soldiers. Would that then have justified shooting tens of thousands of German civilians, including women and children? Yet how is that different from the atomic bombings?"

Ooops.

Blogger ScuzzaMan December 29, 2014 11:27 AM  

Just for historical accuracy, Leahy was most definitely in the White House at the time in question, albeit he wasn't elected to any office there.

"Leahy was recalled to active duty as the personal Chief of Staff to President Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1942 and served in that position throughout World War II. He chaired the Chiefs of Staff and was a major decision-maker during the war. He continued under President Harry S. Truman until finally retiring in 1949. From 1942 until his retirement in 1949, he was the highest-ranking member of the U.S. military, reporting only to the President. He was the United States' first de facto Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (not his official title) and he also presided over the American delegation to the Combined Chiefs of Staff, when the American and British staffs worked together."

--from his wikipedia entry.

No, I don't expect any apology, nor that you will change your mind(s). Being wrong on the facts very rarely changes the opinions of anyone so manifestly emotionally invested in their own opinion of themselves that even a tangential aside gets the Fuck-Off-And-Die! treatment ...

But as our more gracious host regularly advises, such public corrections are made for the benefit of other, more rational, observers.

Blogger JaimeInTexas December 29, 2014 11:46 AM  

Scared NYPD cops letting minor crimes slide

With cops on edge following the assassination of two patrol officers on a Brooklyn street, many officers have started turning a blind eye to some minor crimes, sources told The Post, while a union mandate that two patrol cars respond to all police calls has led to slower response times to non-emergencies.

“I’m not writing any summonses. Do you think I’m going to stand there so someone can shoot me or hit me in the head with an ax?” one cop said Sunday, referring to the Dec. 20 slayings and another recent attack on the NYPD.

“I’m concerned about my safety,” the cop added. “I want to go to home to my wife and kids.”

An NYPD supervisor noted, “My guys are writing almost no summonses, and probably only making arrests when they have to — like when a store catches a shoplifter.”

(snip)

read the rest here

Blogger JaimeInTexas December 29, 2014 11:54 AM  

Re. japanese attempting to surrender before the A-bombs.

Read Herbert Hoover's Freedom Betrayed for plenty of information and documentation on the subject. You will also learn of FDR's and Churchill's betrayal of Poland. Such a betrayal that the Polish ambassador gave Hoover all the Polish Embassy documents for Hoover's library (tambassador had high regards for Hoover) then, the ambassador went back to Poland to die, fighting, IIRC, the Soviets.

Regardless of Hoovers economics, I developed a great appreciation for Hoover the historian and custodian of historical documents.

I highly recommend the book.

Blogger JaimeInTexas December 29, 2014 11:55 AM  

tambassador -> the ambassador

OpenID cailcorishev December 29, 2014 1:49 PM  

Scared NYPD cops letting minor crimes slide

Good. It'd be better if more "minor crimes" weren't on the books at all, but if cops decline to enforce them for whatever reason, that's the next best thing.

As far as cops actually going on strike, though, they have to be careful. Much like teachers, if they strike for too long, people may start to realize they aren't nearly as necessary as we've been trained to think they are.

Anonymous Discard December 29, 2014 5:08 PM  

ScuzzaMan: Postwar memoirs are bureaucratic warfare by other means. What some general or politician said he did or thought is not reliable. These are people who got to their position, in large part, by getting others to buy their story. If they ran a ship aground in peacetime, as Nimitz did, they talked their way out of it. They're good at telling their side. All the battles of the Civil War were refought throughout the rest of the 19th Century by the generals involved, through their memoirs. Winston Churchill wrote six volumes of his own spin on WW2, in addition to his five volumes of spin on WW1. What men who have been responsible for the deaths of tens or hundreds of thousands of lives have to say about how it happened is not trustworthy. What great officer or politician has ever written a real confession of his vanity and failure? Who reads Admiral Halsey's or General Omar Bradley's memoirs these days? Who will read what Generals Petraus and McFarlane have to say? Their memoirs will be as trustworthy as those of the lawyers in O.J. Simpson's trial or the Watergate participants. All those people were there, and I wasn't, but I see no reason to believe them. In short, it doesn't matter what the flag officers have to say, unless we can distinguish their honest opinion from self-serving afterthoughts. Good luck with that. They are no more believable than Harry Truman and his mythical million American lives saved by the A-bomb.

The Army ruled Japan. We were not about to stop beating on them because of some diplomatic feelers sent out through back channels. We were, you'll recall, chatting with Japanese diplomats as Pearl Harbor was being bombed. The war was going to continue on our timetable, using everything we had, until they quit, just as it had on a hundred battlefields. Just as it did in Germany.

Yes, there were political considerations in using the A-bomb. That's hardly remarkable. Invading the Phillipines was a political decision. The invasion of France was a political decision. Every major military decision had political aspects. So what? That why "War is the continuation of politics by other means". That's why "War is too important to be left to the generals". That's why the President is Commander-in-Chief. The Russians too had political considerations. I understand that they sat on Japanese peace feelers, because they wanted to keep the war going long enough to get their troops in place and grab to Far Eastern territory. It's not news.

Could it be known that massacring the people of Aachen could spare the lives of many more people, then it would be right to massacre them. That's what generals do, you know, they spend lives to achieve a greater good. It's dirty work. The relatives of the dead would condemn you, and the people who lived because Stuttgart and Munich and Frankfort surrendered would be quietly grateful that you were merciful enough to stop shooting when they put up the white flag.
And that's what justifies the A-bombs in my mind. We really did stop killing them when they said Uncle. We really did offer them a merciful peace. We executed a few and let most of them go. Whether or not the A-bomb was really the final straw really doesn't matter. We beat on them with everything we had, just as they fought back with everything they had, and we had more. When they kept their word to surrender, we kept our word to leave them their Emperor.

ScuzzaMan, this is a complex issue, and not all the evidence is on one side or the other. I've presented some of the reasoning for my views on the matter. We disagree, but I don't believe that I've insulted you. I've made no comment on your personal emotional state, nor told you to fuck-off-and-die.

Anonymous Discard December 29, 2014 5:17 PM  

JaimeInTexas: I've never heard of the book, but I'll put it on my list. No promises, I have a very long list. It really doesn't matter what an old man thinks about the A-bomb anyway, but I'm curious. If Hoover, a good friend of Truman, says that Harry bombed Hiroshima with a legitimate peace offer in his hand, I'd have to revise my opinion of him.

Blogger JaimeInTexas December 29, 2014 6:27 PM  

Discard: A wsrning. It is a large book. Hoover endeavored to collect documents from the day after the attack on Pearl Harbor. It is his Magnum Opus and it took him only about 40 years to complete. If you read history, as it seems you do, you will be going "aha" often enough.

Blogger JaimeInTexas December 29, 2014 6:41 PM  

Re. Harry and the a-bomb. I need to refresh my memory. I remember that the Japanese did indeed attempt to reach FDR to negotiate, mid 1941, and that the information was leaked and the pro-anglo Japanese government fell because of it.

http://www.amazon.com/Freedom-Betrayed-Herbert-Hoovers-Aftermath/dp/0817912347

I have commented at National Review Online about this book in relevant discussion threads and, to this date, I do not think NRO has reviewed the book. I am going to check in a moment.

Blogger ScuzzaMan December 30, 2014 4:29 AM  

@Discard

A simple thought experiment: if the Germans had nuked New York and London, what would we have done to them?

I don't mean militarily, I mean in the Nuremburg court after they lost?

You know damn well we'd have have hung them for war criminals. And, had that happened, we'd have been right to do so.

Blogger JaimeInTexas December 30, 2014 11:02 AM  

It seems like Hoover did state that dropping the a-bomb was immoral. Also, that the Japanese had been trying to negotiate a surrender 6 months prior. LeMay, of all people, did not think the a-bombs were necessary.

A correction. Freedom Betrayed took about 20 years to write.

Anonymous Discard December 31, 2014 3:12 AM  

ScuzzaMan: Of course we would have hanged the German leaders if they had nuked New York. We hanged them without their ever having nuked anybody. IIRC, we hanged them for starting an aggressive war. There were jurists and prominent politicians who felt that the Nuremburg trials were legally dubious and set a bad precedent, and that instead we should just hang a bunch of Nazis for being bad guys and losing the war, without invoking any lofty and hypocritical principles.

Anonymous Discard December 31, 2014 4:02 AM  

JaimeInTexas: I just read half a dozen reviews of Freedom Betrayed, only one of which was idiotic. One mentioned Truman's ignoring Japanese peace negotiations. I think I'll manage to get a library copy and read the relevant pages, at least.

I wonder if Truman simply figured that the Japanese were playing for time, to better prepare themselves for battle on the home islands. Killing more of them when they were willing to give up doesn't seem to square with the magnanimous peace we gave them.

Blogger JaimeInTexas December 31, 2014 8:57 AM  

The whole book is worth reading. The chapters on Poland and China are also important. Heck, the whole book is important.

Anonymous Discard January 02, 2015 2:43 AM  

OK, Jaime, I'll check it out when I find time.

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