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Saturday, January 17, 2015

Christian revival in the heart of secularism

A Christian in France suggests one might be in the works:
On a recent Sunday, my family and I only showed up 10 minutes early for Mass. That meant we had to sit in fold-out chairs in the spillover room, where the Mass is relayed on a large TV screen. During the service, my toddler had to go to the bathroom. To get there, we had to step over a dozen people sitting in hallways and corners. This is business as usual for my church in Paris, France.

I point this out because one of the most familiar tropes in social commentary today is the loss of Christian faith in Europe in general, and France in particular. The Wall Street Journal recently fretted about the sale of "Europe's empty churches."

Could it be, instead, that France is in the early stages of a Christian revival?

Yes, churches in the French countryside are desperately empty. There are no young people there. But then, there are no young people in the French countryside, period. France is a modern country with an advanced economy, and that means its countryside has emptied, and that means that churches built in an era when the country's sociological makeup was quite different go empty. In the cities — which is where people are, and where cultural trends gain escape velocity — the story is quite different.

But back to our parish. Is our pastor some outlier with megawatt charisma? In terms of flair, he would win no public speaking contests. But there is something that sets him apart from many of the Catholic priests my parents' generation grew up listening to: he is unapologetically orthodox.
It may seem strange to suggest this at a time when liberalism in the mainstream churches and secularism without appear dominant. The Anglicans have made women bishops, the Pope is a demi-socialist, and everyone expects the Supreme Court to declare, ex nihilo, that the abominable parody known as "gay marriage" was magically written into the U.S. Constitution in hitherto undetected invisible ink.

But consider the logic of the situation. First, as with a market at its peak, there is no one left to buy into the mainstream denominations' liberal quasi-Christianity. The pews, as they say, are already empty. The 60's-era notion that being more tolerant, more accepting, more accommodating of the world would strengthen the Christian Church and bring in more believers had precisely the opposite effect. After all, if the Church is not only in the world, but of it, what purpose does it have?

At the same time that its intellectual bankruptcy has resulted in the undeniable material failure of inclusive, liberal, and tolerant Churchianity, the material and spiritual failures of secularism are being more apparent as well. People are beginning to realize that asserting a belief in nothing is not going to save them from either the fires of Hell or the bullets of a resurgent Islam.

Add to that the fact that the apparent wealth of the longest credit boom in world history has turned out to be mostly illusionary, and what we are seeing is the potential for a perfect storm of a return to the faith of an intensity that may be unprecedented. For decades, only prophets saw the danger. For years, only extremists were willing to speak out. But now, one has to have one's head lodged firmly in the sand, or in one's posterior, to fail to recognize four things:
  1. The failure of liberal Christian heresy
  2. The spiritual and material failures of secularism
  3. The danger of the third great wave of Islamic aggression
  4. The peril of the Christian West
Now, none of this means a revival is inevitable. It is not. But God works in mysterious ways and in His own time. He appears to enjoy waiting until the moment is dire, and then, using the most unlikely of sources. We cannot make it happen, but we can raise our voices and pray that He will make it happen, and that He use us as His weapons against those who have proclaimed themselves His enemies.

We are all sinful, corrupt, and fallen. I do not exempt myself from that, being worse than many, if not most, in those regards. But even I can see that something is stirring, something appears to be rumbling under the ground to which the flimsy secular chains that cover the inert corpse of Christendom are attached.

I know that there are those who believe that we are living in a permanently post-Christian era. But I suggest it is far too soon to count out a faith that began with nothing more than eleven frightened men. If Christians do not serve and worship a Living God, then Christianity should, by all reason and logic, continue to dwindle and fade. But if that does not happen, if there is, instead, a great revival, that will be meaningful evidence to the contrary.

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132 Comments:

Anonymous Jeigh Di January 17, 2015 7:59 AM  

One may hope. With over a third of the population infected with sexually transmitted diseases I think the United States' only hope is a revival on the order of the Great Awakening. If enough of us pray for such it will happen.

Anonymous PA January 17, 2015 8:04 AM  

The advent of rock music brought scenes of girls scream-ovulating for the Beatles. In an egalitarian America here was a pent-up hunger among females for apex alphas.

Today, an entire Western civilization had a pent-up hunger for spiritual nourishment.

Blogger JartStar January 17, 2015 8:08 AM  

Even if Christianity fades in the West it continues to surge in the East. There are now more Christians than communists in China. This isn't to say that Christians in the West should not fight on, but God may send missionaries from the East to aide the ailing West.

Blogger Hermit January 17, 2015 8:24 AM  

How to restore christianity.

1 Wait for people to realize that secularism is empty,its world a lie and Islam a menace
2 Kick out modernists and liberal priests
3 Have people know the true and strong faith of their ancestors
4 Fight fake spirituality (new age and shit)

This is how I returned to faith: first I realized that the spiritual emptyness of secularism was terrible and then I met a traditional catholic.
I lost my faith when I was a teenager because the modern liberal weak church was shit and I would not have returned to faith without knowing a different church who had a strong sense of identity. People really want strong and decisive spiritual answers, not crap like "follow your heart and be yourself" or "God loves you anyway, no one can judge you".


tl;dr people who turned atheist because of modern churches will not return to christianity if christianity stay liberal and modernist.

Blogger JACIII January 17, 2015 8:25 AM  

There does seem to be a resurgence toward, at least, parts of Christian orthodoxy. People are starting to see what has been lost to them and theirs.
The biggest catalyst has been the abominations that are the destruction of family. Hyphenated marriage, sodomite marriage, sperm donors, surrogates. All these take from the population the right to look back to their forebears and see themselves the result of a series of hard lifetime commitments between a husband, a wife, and God.

The fear of giving ones child less than you have is a good motivator, no one wants their kids to be poor, and while we can't always give our children those things material, they should absolutely be the recipients of what we have to give that can't be purchased at any price.

The world has gotten crazy and folk are looking to pull on the wayback lever.

Anonymous Roundtine January 17, 2015 8:33 AM  

Most people leave the faith during their adolescent years and they never develop this idea. This makes for very weak sauce.

Even atheists are coming around to the good of Christianity. Here's Stefan Molyneux, who in a philosophical/theological debate will spare nothing in attacking religion, speaking about why he likes Christians and Christianity: Religion vs. Communism | In Praise of Christianity!

Anonymous MrGreenMan January 17, 2015 8:40 AM  

It struck me as odd five years ago that our little congregationalist church was sending missionaries to England, to France, and to the United States, but I quickly came to understand: It's not just the Third World that needs Jesus. How sweet would it be if the "Eldest Daughter of the Church" would abandon her harlotry?

Anonymous Jürgen Becker January 17, 2015 8:41 AM  

I see a similar trend here in Germany, although I don't think it was ever really post-Christian here. (Maybe I'm too young and missed it.) Churches are filled with young people in the cities, and the sermons are becoming more politically incorrect.

Tangentially related, for those who follow the whole Gamergate debacle: christian revival on 8chan

Anonymous PA January 17, 2015 8:45 AM  

"1 Wait for people to realize that secularism is empty,its world a lie and Islam a menace
2 Kick out modernists and liberal priests
3 Have people know the true and strong faith of their ancestors
4 Fight fake spirituality (new age and shit)"

Also:

5. Valorize masculinity
6. Reconnect faith with ethnic identity

Blogger Cederq January 17, 2015 8:51 AM  

I concur with PA, the first four are essential, but # 5 and 6 will draw men in with stunning speed. Once that has happened, you will see a Renascence in the church

Anonymous Jürgen Becker January 17, 2015 8:58 AM  

Reconnect faith with ethnic identity
This already is happening here with PEGIDA. I'm sure the French are watching.

Valorize masculinity
This will take some time. Churches are becoming more orthodox, but they're still quite squeamish on this topic.

Anonymous Stingray January 17, 2015 9:00 AM  

PA beat me to it. Return Men to the Church, return the masculinity and people will return.

We go to a Tridentine Mass. The return to this Orthodox Catholicism is growing pretty quickly and the families are large. We've talked to a few priests about this and some of the families and they are all noticing it. Not only that but these people will tell you that the masculinity and the femininity that follows from it a part of why they switched from the Novus Ordo to the Traditional Mass.

Anonymous Old Man in a Villa January 17, 2015 9:03 AM  

You know why there are so many fat people out there? Because they are starving, desperately hungering for nutrition and finding only empty calories in dead matter pumped full of chemical additives. The body knows what it needs even if the person inhabiting it does not and so it demands to be fed. The result is epeidemic obesity.

The exact same thing can be said of the number of angry, wailing, demanding, puling, whinging, unpleasant indivduals out there who mistake their demands for every wish to be fulfilled as a crusade for morality and good. Their spirits thirst for decency and righteousness but they feed it with SJW bullshit, hence they come to resemble the closing scene of Marley's Ghost in A Christmas Carol-

"The air was filled with phantoms, wandering hither and thither in restless haste, and moaning as they went. Every one of them wore chains like Marley's Ghost; some few (they might be guilty governments) were linked together; none were free."

Blogger IM2L844 January 17, 2015 9:24 AM  

Secularists don't seem to understand they are sawing off the branches they are standing on.

Blogger njartist January 17, 2015 9:31 AM  

1. Repent and believe on Jesus Christ
2. Love God and your brethren
3. When you become a Christian, He will put His Law in your mind and write it in your heart; now obey His commandments: they are not there to save you; you obey because you love God;
4. Keep His Sabbath
5. Walk in the Spirit, not the flesh.

Blogger A Wiser Man Than I January 17, 2015 9:39 AM  

Robert R. Reilly has argued that we live, not in a post-Christian era, but a pre-Christian one.

OpenID cailcorishev January 17, 2015 9:41 AM  

First, as with a market at its peak, there is no one left to buy into the mainstream denominations' liberal quasi-Christianity. The pews, as they say, are already empty.

Thank you. This is what I keep telling people who claim my church is going to lose lots more people if it doesn't cave in on more liberal issues, like ordaining women or marrying homosexuals. It's been caving on as much as possible for 50 years; there are no more "gains" to be made in that direction. The people still in the pews are the die-hards, who have proven nothing will drive them away. Many of them may be liberal and may pressure their pastors in that direction, but they have no real threat-point anymore. They're staying.

And the ones who did leave for seriously liberal churches aren't coming back because you offer some new compromise with the left. What, you're going to out-liberal the Unitarians?

The only gains to be made are on the traditional side, where there's a "customer base" that's been underserved. That's doubly true when you consider they're the only ones growing their size demographically. Add economic and social upheaval to that, and churches that are ready with sound, traditional doctrine that challenges people instead of applauding them for living will find themselves needed.

Anonymous p-dawg January 17, 2015 9:42 AM  

I really don't think it's the Christian corruption of the faith that is going to ultimately rise. It may experience a resurgence, but I am pretty sure that no pagan elements can survive to the end. That is, unless the One who said that He changes not and is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow was lying, I suppose. But then you'd be worshiping a hypocritical liar, which doesn't seem very intelligent to me. Just remember that sin is simply the violation of the Law, and a large part of the message of the man you mislabel "Jesus Christ" was repentance, or turning away from sin, or in other words, following the Law instead of breaking it. If you love the Creator, then follow His law, for that is literally how you show that love. "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. -1 John 5:3"
Hell, that's even in the New Testament, Christians. It's in the part of the book you haven't thrown away as useless...

Anonymous Porky January 17, 2015 10:12 AM  

Very nice essay VD.


Anonymous Dave D January 17, 2015 10:19 AM  

Sadly, most churches in America are dying too, even the "good ones". They're too busy teaching platitudes, generalities (pray more!) & extra biblical things like don't smoke or drink than actually preaching the gospel, disciplining the flock & helping the poor.

Too many republicans &/or democrats in church and not enough Christians.

Anonymous Giuseppe January 17, 2015 10:21 AM  

Well, the truth is One. Whatever it ultimately is. So it is natural that people respond to a certain level of absolutism. The problem appears when the ones preaching commit so many errors in interpreting that truth, that those of us who can see this end up throwing out the whole concept along with the preacher. It is, almost invariably, what has happened to every "atheist" and agnostic.
I am currently reading The Christian Agnostic, by Leslie Weatherhead, and he recognises this problem clearly. Yet, there is, indeed, rock-solid truths to certain aspects of Christianity. The problem, and it is one we each need to address individually, because it cannot be addressed any other way, is to know exactly where that line is.
There are concepts that one Christian will accept as true and fundamental that another will see as perversions of the true original message. And these differences will continue to cause strife between different Christian types. I think it will take a serious revision of the present Churchianity, and an abandonment of most of their human created dogma, before we can see a Christianoty that will be unlike anything we have yet seen on Earth. That is, one that is paradoxically simultaneously much free-er of absurdist dogma, yet also far more absolutist in its core principles.
So, for example, while I may be agnostic about the exact reality of say, the virgin birth, or the resurrection, it takes nothing away from my ability to see God as love and also, the requirement to fight evil directly and unflinchingly. While another Christian may hold the virgin birth and resurrection as absolute core concepts and might see the only true way to fight evil as non-violent. Yet, we could be the best of friend even though we differ in this. A film which exemplified this best is The Mission. Nor do I have a doubt that both men were honest, and that ultimately, the Jeremy Irons character should be our aim. But nor do I have any delusions about the fact that as long as I have been alive, the Robert DeNiro character is the one I have inside me.

Blogger Bard January 17, 2015 10:23 AM  

Yes. Very well written. The people we know are leaving the established church. The smaller home churches are becoming so large we now need places to host them. Real bible study, prayer, music, worship, fellowship and food. The young adults are simply salt of the earth. Mostly home schooled and serious about proper marriage and family. They are the future.

Anonymous Cryan Ryan January 17, 2015 10:45 AM  

Old Man in a Villa,

You hit the nail on the head. The obesity is symptomatic of the lack of spirituality. People are getting tricked into consuming a witch's brew of tasty chemicals, mixed with deadly, high octane sweet carbs, mostly from GMO wheat, soybeans, & corn.

Part of the trickery involves destroying people's faith in a higher power, and removing the respect one should have for one's own temple.

This mountain of glop is being force fed into our young Xer's to the extent that they are twice as diabetic as the evil boomers. And 50% more obese. It's a wonder they can even think. No wonder most of them believe in man made global warming, advantages of diversity, and the moon landing.

So it is encouraging to see that a few X'ers and Millennials remain who still have enough gray matter to decide to get their asses out of bed on Sunday morning and go to church.

I suspect that 20 years from now, there will be more boomers taking care of X'ers than vice versa. I'll be pushing Nate around in his wheelchair while he drools on himself.

Blogger Tank January 17, 2015 10:45 AM  

We visited Paris a few years ago and happened to tour Notre Dame on Sunday morning (which they allow). After hearing so much about how religion was dead in Europe, we were surprised to see the entire Cathedral full of worshippers (it was not any special holiday). The service was in French and sounded quite beautiful. Being there with the French prayers and the pipe organ sounding was a very spiritual experience (yes, even for a non-practicing Jew like myself).

Anonymous The other skeptic January 17, 2015 10:50 AM  

Mean while, the chosen people continue milking the tax payers.

Blogger Markku January 17, 2015 10:52 AM  

The Bible:
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.'"

The Secularists:
Look how few plants there are in that field! We have definitely reached Peak Plant, and it's all downhill from there!

Anonymous The other skeptic January 17, 2015 10:58 AM  

Home-grown terrorism and it seems it was well planned.

I wonder if the sheriff will be fired for this statement:

Judd described it as a well-thought out, "well organized, armed robbery. And it was designed to create the maximum terrorism of the people in the store."

If the two women who were killed were religious as well, then perhaps it was also a hate crime!

Anonymous Homesteader January 17, 2015 11:04 AM  

I stopped attending around the time I went red pill. Having women as priests seemed farcical-like women soldiers, an abomination of the modern age.

I will return to the pews when I find a Church that is antithetical to Churchianity. ( No lesbian "nuns" with acoustic guitars singing Kumbaya). I suspect it may be a while.

Blogger Guitar Man January 17, 2015 11:06 AM  

Cryan, boomers such as yourself will probably be in STD infested nursing homes blasting old Beatles still believing that 90 is the new 60 while still raping younger generations of their wealth.

Anonymous Sensei January 17, 2015 11:07 AM  

Yes, I know people who've been planting churches over there; the beginnings of a revival have been stirring in France for a few years now, praise God. Even some good things happening in Sweden, which is the most comprehensively post-Christian culture I know of.

I think the very concept of "post-Christian" suffers from the hockey stick problem. It's not a permanent situation, it's a cycle. You only need a few post-Christian generations to be pre-Christian again.

As a Frenchman, Andre Malraux, once supposedly said: "The 21st century will be religious or it will not be."

Blogger Guitar Man January 17, 2015 11:07 AM  

Homesteaders, those churches exist. I go to a small Calvary Chapel, and those churches are now frequently criticized for their intolerance and old fashioned ways. Which is funny given the history of that movement.

Anonymous Sensei January 17, 2015 11:16 AM  

Yes, I know people who've been planting churches over there; the beginnings of a revival have been stirring in France for a few years now, praise God. Even some good things happening in Sweden, which is the most comprehensively post-Christian culture I know of.

I think the very concept of "post-Christian" suffers from the hockey stick problem. It's not a permanent situation, it's a cycle. You only need a few post-Christian generations to be pre-Christian again.

As a Frenchman, Andre Malraux, once supposedly said: "The 21st century will be religious or it will not be."

Blogger pdwalker January 17, 2015 11:17 AM  

Even as an atheist (small A) I can clearly see that the best thing for the West would be a return to solid, fundamental Christianity.

OpenID cailcorishev January 17, 2015 11:23 AM  

The good news for Catholics is that the lesbian nuns with guitars are all over 60 years old. Also, if you find a Latin Mass church, you don't have to worry about running into them there.

Blogger Laguna Beach Fogey January 17, 2015 11:38 AM  

Roman Catholic revival would be a good thing. Traditionalism has been gaining ground for years.

We're on the verge of something big, and Christian revival is only a part of it.

Anonymous johnc January 17, 2015 11:38 AM  

There does seem to be much truth in this.

"The Reactionary Generation":
traditional Catholic values sweep French politics

Hope comes from France
The Church of Vatican II: Collapse in Mass Attendance and the Biological Solution in France

Sometimes I look at Europe and think that the US is worse off because we here seem to still be in a slumber.

Blogger RandalThorn January 17, 2015 11:53 AM  

One thing I am glad for living in Greece is that no matter how many pagans and atheists still profess to exist in our society's ranks, we surpass them 4 to 1.

Now if someone wants to make the distinction between Christians and Churchians...

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus January 17, 2015 12:02 PM  

johnc January 17, 2015 11:38 AM, that's all good news.

Strength and success to Benedict XVI's three non-negotiables.

OpenID cailcorishev January 17, 2015 12:03 PM  

Yes, Catholic France is interesting, because it has both extremes and little middle ground. Most of the Church in France embraced (and led) the surge of modernism, especially at Vatican II, and now their churches are empty. But there's also a strong traditional remnant led by groups like Archbishop Lefebvre's FSSPX, which are growing as fast as they can build seminaries and train new priests. Since the traditionalists mostly operate outside the mainstream, they have to fund everything out of pocket, without any help from Rome or the local diocese, so it's a slow process. But when the modernists finish dying off and can't stop them anymore, the traditionalists will be ready to start filling those empty churches.

Blogger jimmy-jimbo January 17, 2015 12:09 PM  

pdwalkerJanuary 17, 2015 11:17 AM
"Even as an atheist (small A) I can clearly see that the best thing for the West would be a return to solid, fundamental Christianity."

That will be a challenge without more fundamentalist Christians. Are you open to a conversion?

Too many Christians shy away from describing themselves as born again fundamentalist Christians. Either because they aren't or they are afraid. Christians must not conform to society.

Blogger Laguna Beach Fogey January 17, 2015 12:11 PM  

On the subject of the Latin Mass, just a few years ago there were only two small churches offering it here in Orange County. Now there are five, which I take as a very good sign.

Anonymous Reationaires are such lazy neckbeard slobs January 17, 2015 12:12 PM  

I REFUSE TO GO TO CHRUCH BECAUSE OF CHURCHIANS...

wait, why did churchians take over again?

Blogger Markku January 17, 2015 12:16 PM  

I have to say that the accusation of laziness hits home, at least to me. Because the right thing to do would be to go there, and annoy them with God's truth until they kick you out. Wash, rinse and repeat until you've run out of Churchian churches in the vicinity.

That's what I SHOULD do. Yet, I find myself not doing it.

Anonymous JA January 17, 2015 12:21 PM  

True, the mainstream "Christian" sects are dying (including the Roman version)....

But Christ is reigning over the earth:

http://www.cbn.com/700club/Guests/Bios/Jim_Rutz042805.aspx

"The Lord is working quietly, continually, and spectacularly. God has brought people back from the dead in 52 countries, mostly in the last 10 years. All documented – many through people Jim personally knows. Scores of cities plagued with crime and poverty are being transformed. Millions of miracles are happening through ordinary people.

"God is taking over. In 1960 there were 24 nonbelievers for every believer in the world. Now there are only six. There are many testimonies of the Lord Himself appearing to Muslims in visions and dreams. In 1960, even the strongest part of the church was growing slowly as the rest of the world. Now we are growing almost seven times as fast."

http://www.cbn.com/700club/Guests/Bios/Jim_Rutz042805.aspx

Anonymous Reationaires are such lazy neckbeard slobs January 17, 2015 12:26 PM  

"That's what I SHOULD do. Yet, I find myself not doing it."

That's part of the problem. But do you brag about your laziness? That seems to be the some of those who throw the "churchian" critique out there.

(By the way, I mostly agree with the churchian critique. But NOT going to a church and instead wacking off to internet porn -- or becoming a PUA to "fuck bitches" seems to be counterproductive -- and lazy. Yet the lazy position seems to be the default of the so-called "Neoreactionaries" you find here and on Twitter)

Anonymous Sensei January 17, 2015 12:31 PM  

Too many Christians shy away from describing themselves as born again fundamentalist Christians.

I don't use the fundamentalist label because it's become an ambiguous term. For some it means adherence to the fundamentals (orthodoxy) and resistance of liberal theology, but for many it means people who burn Harry Potter books. I'm not so much of the latter sort, so I prefer not to confuse people.

Anonymous VD January 17, 2015 12:34 PM  

wait, why did churchians take over again?

Because Christians were unwilling to throw them out. Excess tolerance has been the problem; it is what the Old Testament described as "the sin of Jeroboam".

Blogger Markku January 17, 2015 12:35 PM  

But do you brag about your laziness?

Nope. That does make the problem worse. It gives you a method to resist the impulse that might get you off your ass otherwise.

The time to start the work is now. Then, by the time it's done and the Body of Christ is purified, the people in it will know who you are and what you did. They will trust you with responsibility.

For the person who marches in after the job is done, sits down and says "ok, you may service me now", well, he will be admitted in of course, but he will essentially be treated like a child in a group of adults.

Blogger glad2meetyou January 17, 2015 12:37 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger glad2meetyou January 17, 2015 12:38 PM  

cailcorishev: "The good news for Catholics is that the lesbian nuns with guitars are all over 60 years old."

Yep. The most conservative priest at our parish is the youngest (~40 years old). He started eucharistic adoration, much to the chagrin of the older parishioners. My 60+ year-old coworker complains about him.

The leader of my church discussion group is 60+, and she has a Vatican II, liberal take on theology. The 22-40 year-old members of the group, on the other hand, have a vague hunger for orthodoxy. Our leader’s comments are often met with brooding silence.

Anonymous Reationaires are such lazy neckbeard slobs January 17, 2015 12:42 PM  

"Because Christians were unwilling to throw them out"

Indeed. But to throw them out, it requires showing up, no?

"The time to start the work is now."

I think many forget that -- if the Holy Spirit is calling them-- that one can start one's own church, outside the boundries of the so-called "orthodox" churhian establishment.

That is what many are doing -- some in the U.S. but many in places like China -- with the rise of small house churches (a very positive sign).

More church planters and less "bitch about churchians on twitter" would be helpful. That's my only point -- which I know most here probably agree with already.

Anonymous Sensei January 17, 2015 12:45 PM  

Then, by the time it's done... after the job is done...

The Book of Jude condemns the churchians of 2000 years ago at poetic length. The task of guarding against ungodly infiltrators is never "done," that's why we need mature men to provide consistent godly leadership in churches.

Blogger Markku January 17, 2015 12:47 PM  

I mean, job is done in the sense that you have a reasonable expectation to walk into a random church, and not hear abomination celebrated at the pulpit.

Anonymous The other skeptic January 17, 2015 12:49 PM  

It is interesting to me that the number of Jews in France is reducing and we see a resurgence of Christianity in France. It seems to mirror the Russian experience.

Anonymous The other skeptic January 17, 2015 12:51 PM  

It is interesting to me that the number of Jews in France is reducing and we see a resurgence of Christianity in France. It seems to mirror the Russian experience.

Blogger njartist January 17, 2015 1:05 PM  

The Christian is responsible for whom he supports be they a teacher, pastor, or church body; he is to withdraw his support and presence lest he suffer the same plagues by which God will punish the false.

Anonymous Stickwick January 17, 2015 1:18 PM  

My church mentor and I were having lunch yesterday, and by sheer coincidence the Texas coordinator for Campus Crusade for Christ international missions was seated right next to us. She introduced us and explained to him what I'm doing with my science-faith ministry, and how I'm Swedish and my husband is Finnish so we spend time in the Nordic countries. Well, now I have a meeting planned with this coordinator to discuss doing summer ministry in the Nordic and Baltic countries. I know for a fact that for many young people, especially university students, one of the main obstacles to faith is the supposed problem with science being at odds with the Bible. Apologist, Hugh Ross, recently returned from a mission trip to Australia and New Zealand and said that many people over there converted right on the spot after being told how science and faith are not only not adversarial, but complementary. I was hoping it would be similar in Europe. It's very encouraging to hear that the embers of Christianity still glow over there -- I'll hopefully be helping to fan the flames.

Anonymous patrick kelly January 17, 2015 1:35 PM  

"God may send missionaries from the East to aide the ailing West."

We're already here........

Blogger Proud Feminist Girl January 17, 2015 1:42 PM  

I would prefer to believe in Buddhism, they assert that no "finite" bad action, no matter how bad, deserve an "infinite" punishment (hell ). That is the right justice of Karma.

Anonymous The other skeptic January 17, 2015 1:49 PM  

Our French lineage traces back to 1727. We're leaving

So, not as French as the French, then. Got it.

Anonymous The other skeptic January 17, 2015 1:59 PM  

I would prefer to believe in Buddhism, they assert that no "finite" bad action, no matter how bad, deserve an "infinite" punishment (hell ). That is the right justice of Karma.

You are too short for this ride.

You don't get to pick and choose the one thing from a particular culture you like. It's a package deal. At most you can choose not to observe some small part of it, like attending Church.

Besides that, have you not heard of salvation and redemption? Those are big parts of Christianity. You are not automatically condemned to infinite punishment for a single finite transgression. You only have to repent.

Anonymous B Lewis January 17, 2015 2:13 PM  

Our little Catholic parish is packing them in. We are an Anglican Use parish, a former Episcopal parish which converted as a whole to the Catholic Church. We celebrate the mass according to the Anglican Usage of the Roman Rite, which is nothing but the Episcopalian High Mass that's been "catholicized".

And it's not just us: since Pope Benedict XVI promulgated Anglicanorum Coetibus in 2009, three Ordinariates for "returning" Anglicans have been established. The one here in the States and Canada is called the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of Saint Peter, and it (along with the other Ordinariates in the UK and Australia) is putting together a special liturgy that will (we hope) represent the authentic English Catholic tradition pre-Henry VIII.

(For what it's worth, Pope Francis is reportedly not an enthusiast of returning Anglicans.)

Ours is a very orthodox mass: no altar girls, no women on deck, no felt banners, no lesbo guitar nuns, no "praise band", no "contemporary worship", no liturgical dance, and no "theater in the round". We receive the Eucharist on the tongue while kneeling at the altar rail, and always from a man -- never a woman. We say the Credo in Latin, the Kyrie in Greek, and occasionally the Pater Noster as well. We have full smells and bells, a real confessional booth, and we pray the Angelus together immediately after the High Mass on Sundays.

Best of all, we all help each other out in real life. We would consider it a shame and scandal to allow one of our own to go hungry, naked, or homeless. I have dealt with our parish's funds over the years and I know where that money goes. Not one cent is wasted on useless crap or big salaries. (Our priest rides a moped to church!)

And we pack them in. Our little parish church is shabby and plain, but Christ is in the Tabernacle front and center, not shuffled off to the side in some stupid "Adoration Chapel". People follow Him: all our Sunday masses are full. ALL. Even the 6:00 p.m. Sunday evening mass is usually SRO. Heck, our weekday masses are fairly well-attended, and not just by old ladies.

Folks, the Church does not need to be "socially relevant". Neither does it need Evangelical-style WorshipTainment. All we have to do is put Christ and Him crucified at the center of our worship. The Holy Spirit will do the rest.

We are not in the Sales Division. Christ's salvation is not something to be marketed to target demos like toothpaste or pornography. We are in the News Division -- the Good News Division. We don't need to "sell" the Gospel. All we need do is proclaim it, honestly and without distortion. Let us do so.

Anonymous B Lewis January 17, 2015 2:19 PM  

[Re-post in case Blogger ate my original]

Our little Catholic parish is packing them in. We are an Anglican Use parish, a former Episcopal parish which converted as a whole to the Catholic Church. We celebrate the mass according to the Anglican Usage of the Roman Rite, which is nothing but the Episcopalian High Mass that's been "catholicized".

And it's not just us: since Pope Benedict XVI promulgated Anglicanorum Coetibus in 2009, three Ordinariates for "returning" Anglicans have been established. The one here in the States is called the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of Saint Peter, and it (along with the other Ordinariates in the UK and Australia) is putting together a special liturgy that will (we hope) represent the authentic English Catholic tradition pre-Henry VIII.

(For what it's worth, Pope Francis is reportedly not an enthusiast of returning Anglicans.)

Ours is a very orthodox mass: no altar girls, no women on deck, no felt banners, no lesbo guitar nuns, no "praise band", no "contemporary worship", no liturgical dance, and no "theater in the round". We receive the Eucharist on the tongue while kneeling at the altar rail, and always from a man -- never a woman. We say the Credo in Latin, the Kyrie in Greek, and occasionally the Pater Noster as well. We have full smells and bells, a real confessional booth, and we pray the Angelus together immediately after the High Mass on Sundays.

Best of all, we all help each other out in real life. We would consider it a shame and scandal to allow one of our own to go hungry, naked, or homeless. I have dealt with our parish's funds over the years and I know where that money goes. Not one cent is wasted on useless crap or big salaries. (Our priest rides a moped to church!)

And we pack them in. Our little parish church is shabby and plain, but Christ is in the Tabernacle front and center, not shuffled off to the side in some stupid "Adoration Chapel". People follow Him: all our Sunday masses are full. ALL. Even the 6:00 p.m. Sunday evening mass is usually SRO. Heck, our weekday masses are fairly well-attended, and not just by old ladies.

Folks, the Church does not need to be "socially relevant". Neither does it need Evangelical-style WorshipTainment. All we have to do is put Christ and Him crucified at the center of our worship. The Holy Spirit will do the rest.

We are not in the Sales Division. Christ's salvation is not something to be marketed to target demos like toothpaste or pornography. We are in the News Division -- the Good News Division. We don't need to "sell" the Gospel. All we need do is proclaim it, honestly and without distortion. Let us do so.

Anonymous Anonymous January 17, 2015 2:20 PM  

Re: Separation of Church and State (money)

Prior to his resignation Pope Benedict called on the world's Bishops NOT to accept money from Caesar.

According to the Economist (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/08/17/the-economist-estimates-the-catholic-church-spent-171600000000-in-2010/) the Catholic Church USA gets about 15% of its budget from the pews and about 85% of its budget directly or indirectly from Caesar. It spends about 6% of its budget on parishes.

This year the starting USCCB (Bishop's bureaucracy) budget was @ 170 plus million. About 70 million plus of which came from Caesar.

In Germany the Catholic Church has @ 690,000 employees. Making it the second largest employer in Germany. Its annual budget from Caesar is @ 7-billion (Billion as with a "b").

All the religions in Germany are lavishly subsidized by Caesar. Employees receive incredible benefits.

IMO this largesse is a not so subtle seduction of Churchmen (and many church women) by Caesar.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Anonymous RedJack January 17, 2015 2:31 PM  

Richard,

That is why the Catholic church is so quick to side with the SJW. They know who they work for (the State).

Blogger Markku January 17, 2015 2:32 PM  

Proud Feminist Girl

I would prefer to believe in Buddhism, they assert that no "finite" bad action, no matter how bad, deserve an "infinite" punishment (hell ). That is the right justice of Karma.


Don't pretend to be a girl, Me Guerrero. We know who you are.

Anonymous Anonymous January 17, 2015 2:45 PM  

Mr. RedJack:

Thank you for your reply wherein you posted in part: "They know who they work for (the State)."

@ 1963 a little known Greek Orthodox member (Michael Dukakis) of the Mass State Legislature introduced a bill to legalize artificial contraception.

The Legislature was then dominated by devout Irish Catholics. The Bill was thought to go down in flames. But Richard Cardinal Cushing (who confirmed me) came out and told the Irish pols that they could not impose their religious beliefs on non-Catholic citizens. The Cardinal urged passage of the Bill.

Despite that (amazingly) the bulk of the Irish pols fought a bitter rear guard action against the Bill but went down to defeat.

The faithful Catholic pols then found themselves knocked off in reelection campaigns and replaced by other Catholic pols who were essentially militant agnostics; but had friendly relations with the Chancery.

Today I do not know of a single faithful Catholic pol.

This idea of not "imposing" their Catholic faith was introduced in the USA by a Jesuit named John Courtney Murray and was closely embraced by, among others, the Cuomo and Kennedy clans.

Forgive my long ramble.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Anonymous Steven Pherson January 17, 2015 2:57 PM  

I am a Unitarian. I have friends who are Methodist and Catholic. We have no "Evangelical-style WorshipTainment" at our churches. We also hold up Christ as a model for abortion rights, feminism, social justice and progressivism. If oue pews are a little less full, it is because the racists, homophobes and bigots went elsewhere. Thankfully the new Holy Father is a man of peace and social justice. The church is changing for the better, for a modern era, away from hate. My Catholic friends continue to celebate Mass, in full communion with Rome, despite what "B Lewis" claims.

OpenID cailcorishev January 17, 2015 2:59 PM  

(For what it's worth, Pope Francis is reportedly not an enthusiast of returning Anglicans.)

He's not an enthusiast of anything resembling tradition. As a good Vatican II ecumenist, I'm sure he would have suggested that you stay Episcopalian, that there was no need for you to change.

But that's okay. All traditionalists want from him is that he leave us alone, which he seems willing to do.

Anonymous Anonymous January 17, 2015 3:02 PM  

Mr. Steven Pherson:

You posted in part: "Thankfully the new Holy Father is a man of peace and social justice."

Yesterday Holy Father Francis during his visit to the PI condemned in the strongest terms artificial contraception, gay marriage and abortion:

See the following for several links on this matter: http://www.pewsitter.com/page_1.html

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Anonymous Anonymous January 17, 2015 3:04 PM  

Mr cailcorishev:

You posted in part: "All traditionalists want from him is that he leave us alone, which he seems willing to do."

FFI?

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Anonymous Corvinus January 17, 2015 3:07 PM  

cailcorishev: "The good news for Catholics is that the lesbian nuns with guitars are all over 60 years old."

Yep. The most conservative priest at our parish is the youngest (~40 years old). He started eucharistic adoration, much to the chagrin of the older parishioners. My 60+ year-old coworker complains about him.

The leader of my church discussion group is 60+, and she has a Vatican II, liberal take on theology. The 22-40 year-old members of the group, on the other hand, have a vague hunger for orthodoxy. Our leader’s comments are often met with brooding silence.


VD smacks Baby Boomers around a lot, but we Catholics have an even stronger motivation to do so. Although for us, the apathy extends to the older generations as well.

I would like to think that the Modernist SJWs who have the Vatican in their grip will finally lose when they have no more footsoldiers thanks to the Pill contracepting them out of existence.

Anonymous Discard January 17, 2015 3:12 PM  

Steve Pherson: The Unitarian club is not a church, It is a political organization for the mentally ill. I've looked at your bulletin boards, and everything is leftist politics, nothing is religious. You use Jesus as a veneer to preserve your tax status.

Anonymous Corvinus January 17, 2015 3:16 PM  

@Discard

You can think of a Unitarian service as what an atheist / SJW church service would look like. It's weird, and a bit hilarious and nauseating.

Anonymous Stg58 / Animal Mother January 17, 2015 3:17 PM  

Steven Pherson,

Where does Christ serve as a model for abortion right?

Steven, please answer this direct question: if Jesus Christ is a model for a abortion rights, how does he square that with the warning that anyone who harms his little ones, it would better for that man to have a millstone be placed around his neck and he be cast into the sea?

Anonymous Reationaires are such lazy neckbeard slobs January 17, 2015 3:17 PM  

The church is dying because the megachurches are full and the crooked mainline denominations are dying. This is the fault of megachurches, which are 100% churchian and I know this for a fact cause I heard an atheist PUA guy say this on Twitter. Plus I have not personally been to church in 15 years.... this makes me an expert.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper January 17, 2015 3:19 PM  

if the Church does come back it had better be an European ethnic focused church based around traditionalist values. If it isn't the Left will just corrupt the church and while it might stand against importing more Muslims, it will replace them with more importing "Christian" Africans or the like.

As it is Europe would be better off with some kind of folk religions and a lot of ethno-nationalism instead of trying anymore Universalistic Jewish spin off sects. A little tribalism and pre-manorial thinking might not be amiss either but I'm not sure modernity would survive that, not that it will survive the policy choices and the inevitable loss of fossil fuels. As the Archdruid is fond of saying, crash now and avoid the rush.

All this of course means smaller countries and less of the rush of having power for the elite but so be, almost every nation is far too large anyway.

Anonymous Anonymous January 17, 2015 3:24 PM  

Mr Reationaires:

You posted in part: "Plus I have not personally been to church in 15 years.... this makes me an expert."

Gold loves you very much. So much so egat ge sent his only begotten Son to die a terrible death for you and me.

Respectfully - kindly consider returning to Church.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Anonymous Mike C. January 17, 2015 3:29 PM  

Tolerance of Islam is an expression of a woman's sexual desire for masculinity. Islam is a masculine religion where as Christianity is beta. As Heartiste says, " Jesus was the first SJW." Grow up, get some ballz and develop reason and logic.

Blogger Corvinus January 17, 2015 3:36 PM  

Islam is a masculine religion where as Christianity is beta.

If that is the case, you'd have to explain why most Christian-to-Muslim converts are female and most Muslim-to-Christian converts are male.

Churchianism, yes, is definitely beta. But Islam is a radical emotionally-based SJW ideology, even if it has "traditional values".

As Heartiste says, " Jesus was the first SJW."

I don't think he ever said that. He did say this though:
Jesus Had Game

Anonymous kh123 January 17, 2015 3:37 PM  

"We are not in the Sales Division. Christ's salvation is not something to be marketed to target demos like toothpaste or pornography."

Given this is likely aimed at church practices in the United States of Corinth for the past decade or two, agreed.

On the other hand, to some extent, services - and the word - use some of the same principles. Christ, front and center, as you pointed out. Smells and bells sans whistles.

Someone pointed out the other other day the idea that Coltrane's playing was essentially phrased on purpose, a calculated lead-up to the silences that followed. Because this was where he wanted the listener to end up, because this was where the payoff was, repose and peace.

Anonymous Anonymous January 17, 2015 3:41 PM  

Mr: Mike C.

You posted in part:

"Islam is a masculine religion where as Christianity is beta."

The Knights Templar, Hospitiler and Teutonic might disagree with you.

As might the Conquistadors.

As might the Christos of Mexico.

As might the Imperial Marines of the Theban Legion. Or their brothers in the 12th (Armed with Thunder Bolts) Legion.

As might the foot soldiers of Charles Martel.

As might the Iberian soldiers who fought the longest was in history (@712 AD to @ 1492 AD) the Reconquista.

As might the soldiers of the Byzantine Empire and their Armenian brothers.

In fact it is kind of hard for me to think of a single period of history since the birth of the Prince of Peace that his followers were not happily slaughtering the enemies of Christ.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Anonymous VD January 17, 2015 4:06 PM  

The church is changing for the better, for a modern era, away from hate.

Empty buildings don't hate.

Anonymous Starets January 17, 2015 4:11 PM  

@Stickwick
"...science and faith are not only not adversarial, but complementary."

Have you read Edward Feser?

He makes a similar point, which he advances against Dawkins and the other prominent atheist writers. He is a Philosophy prof, and writes apologetics from a Trad Catholic, Aristotelian-Thomist perspective. One of his books, I think it was "The Last Superstition: A Refutation of the New Atheism" cites works by other current philosophers on the relationship between science and Aristotelian-Thomist philosophy.

He also has a book on Philosophy of Mind. I have not yet read it but it is positively reviewed.

If you have not yet read his work, you may find it of interest.

Anonymous Leo January 17, 2015 4:44 PM  

he who holds the Faith possesses more than he who holds the place. For the Faith is greater than the place - from St. Athanasius

And considering the malevolent universe theory, we are fugitives

Anonymous Mike C. January 17, 2015 4:50 PM  

All your examples are 1000 years in the past, Richard, using guys who were half pagan. Nietzsche said it more than a century ago. Difficult to disagree with it in the context of his criticism on christianity Stop being beta, use reason and logic.

Blogger RandalThorn January 17, 2015 5:11 PM  

Lol! Byzantine Empire soldiers, half-pagan? This post is an invitation for us to ignore your opinion, in everything, ever!

Anonymous johnc January 17, 2015 5:16 PM  

The idea that Islam is a "masculine" culture is, of course, preposterous. The entire civilization is based around inbreeding and pedophilia and maybe if you blow yourself up you'll score 72 virgins. When I look at Islam I see insecurity mixed with barbarism.

Frankly I do not concern myself much with the sociological novelties of alpha and beta and all of that, as if that is the definitive measuring rule of right religion. Obedience to Almighty God is the first and foremost human duty.

Jesus Christ is the Alpha and the Omega and everything in between. He is the top dog. If one is not willing to subject himself to His kingship, then he does not get to enter His kingdom.

Anonymous Mike C. January 17, 2015 5:21 PM  

Byzantine's best soldiers were Rus... Norse pagan Vikings.

Byzantine (betas) was defeated by Islam (alpha)... thanks for proving my initial point, churchian.

Blogger RandalThorn January 17, 2015 5:28 PM  

Sorry mike, you are an ignoramus, Byzantine's were kicking Islam's ass long before the West knew what Islam is. And their best soldiers were the Katafractoi and Akrites, mostly Greeks, Armenians, Vlachs and Slavs, try harder next time.

Anonymous Mike C. January 17, 2015 5:39 PM  

Byzantine conquered Islam, do tell? The Vangarian Guard wasn't pagan?

This is pathetic. But they call it "The Cathedral " for a reason. Look, I have coached hundreds of guys how to get laid. But 20% will never get Game, no matter who coaches them, and I would say nearly all these sad sacks grew up in the church. The more conservative the religious upbringing the more beta the dude...

Islam is irrational but alpha, Christianity is irrational and beta.

Blogger Shibes Meadow January 17, 2015 5:49 PM  

THE UNITARIAN PRAYER

O God
(if there is a God)
Save my soul
(if I have a soul)

I'll take an honest atheist over a milktoast Unitarian any day. Better no Jesus than the faggy, abortion-rights "jesus" they fancy over at Casa U.

Blogger Shibes Meadow January 17, 2015 6:01 PM  

Mike C.: I was raised by devout fundamentalist holy-rollers. Today, I am the Traddiest of Trad Catholics.

And during my younger years, I was swimming in tail. All I wanted. In every combination you can imagine. My being raised Christian did not reduce my seduce.

I'm old now, and have been happily and faithfully married for 22 years, but with all modesty I still get the Welcome Mat unrolled at my feet all the time by women. (I politely change the subject when this occurs.)

I don't know if that's 'alpha" or whatever, but it worked for me.

Please note that I am not advocating sex outside of marriage. I believe it to be immoral. That being said, I had more than my fair share before I was married, and I'm not going to deny that I enjoyed it.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus January 17, 2015 6:14 PM  

The Agnostic's Prayer (also called the Possibly Proper Death Litany)

Insofar as I may be heard by anything, which may or may not care what I say, I ask, if it matters, that you be forgiven for anything you may have done or failed to do which requires forgiveness. Conversely, if not forgiveness but something else may be required to ensure any possible benefit for which you may be eligible after the destruction of your body, I ask that this, whatever it may be, be granted or withheld, as the case may be, in such a manner as to insure your receiving said benefit. I ask this in my capacity as your elected intermediary between yourself and that which may not be yourself, but which may have an interest in the matter of your receiving as much as it is possible for you to receive of this thing, and which may in some way be influenced by this ceremony. Amen.

Anonymous Anonymous January 17, 2015 6:22 PM  

Mr. Mike C:

Thank you for your reply wherein you posted in part:

"All your examples are 1000 years in the past, Richard, using guys who were half pagan"

One example which was not I posted which was not "1000 years in the past" were the Christos who fought the socialist government in Mexico with great military success after WWI.

I am afraid I am unaware that any of the examples I cited were "half pagan". Where did I go wrong please?

Other examples in the 20th Century:

* Greeks and Armenians fighting Muslims.

* Christian Biafra fighting Muslim Nigeria

* Lebanese Christians fighting Muslims and Druze.

* UPA Catholic and Orthodox Christians fighting the Society Union. The last UPA unit (Ukrainian Partisan Army) instead of surrendering fought its way West to Austria in 1956.

* Orthodox Christian Whites fighting Reds after the Revolution.

* Catholic Christians during the PI insurrection fighting the allegedly Masonic Officered U.S. Army from 1898 to 1913.

* Orthodox Christian Greek Cypriotes fighting the Muslim Turkish Army in 1974.

* The largely Catholic Columbian Army fighting Marxists guerilla movements.

* and strangely enough the largely still Christian British Army fighting the Marxist PIRA in Northern Ireland.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Anonymous Anonymous January 17, 2015 6:29 PM  

Mr. Mike C:

You also posted in part:

"The Vangarian Guard wasn't pagan?"

According to Mr. Wiki:

"The Rus' provided the earliest members of the Varangian guard. Rus' were in Byzantine service from as early as 874. The guard was first formally constituted under Emperor Basil II in 988, following the Christianization of Kievan Rus' by Vladimir I of Kiev."

On a personal note. My ancestors from that side of the pond were among the last Vikings to convert to Christianity.

And I was recently diagnosed with "Vikings disease"!

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Anonymous Anonymous January 17, 2015 6:52 PM  

Mr. Mike C:

On another personal note if I may I had the honor as a young Special Forces soldier (back in the Dark Ages) of serving with three Christians who were awarded the Medal of Honor:

SGM Jon Caviani
COL Nick Rowe
COL Robert Howard

May God rest their brave souls.

Richard W Comerford

Blogger Nate January 17, 2015 7:54 PM  

"
This is pathetic. But they call it "The Cathedral " for a reason. Look, I have coached hundreds of guys how to get laid. But 20% will never get Game, no matter who coaches them, and I would say nearly all these sad sacks grew up in the church. The more conservative the religious upbringing the more beta the dude..."

See?

Told you Alpha Game is the problem.

Blogger Nate January 17, 2015 8:00 PM  

'Empty buildings don't hate."

funny... but while there are plenty of churches that are losing members... they aren't people abandoning the church. Its people leaving failing churches for thriving churches.

Anonymous GK Chesterton January 17, 2015 8:37 PM  

Its people leaving failing churches for thriving churches."

Mega-churches are not real churches. Just protestant nonsense (but I repeat myself) packaged for sale with rock music and hippie gay baptist televangelists like Mark Driscoll and Joe Olsteen. The only non-churchian church is the real Church and unfortunately even Catholics are losing members.

Anonymous Eric Ashley January 17, 2015 8:51 PM  

Paganism developed post Flood from ancestor worship as it was too scary to meet with the Living God.

Anonymous Stickwick January 17, 2015 9:11 PM  

Starets: Have you read Edward Feser?

No; thanks for the tip.

Richard W Comerford: On another personal note if I may I had the honor as a young Special Forces soldier (back in the Dark Ages) of serving with three Christians who were awarded the Medal of Honor...

Generally speaking, the moment someone starts inserting himself into a religious discussion using the words "reason" and "logic," you know you're dealing with an ignoramus, quite possibly of the Objectivist variety. These guys are one notch above troll; it's hardly worth responding, but what the heck.

Most of the American military is comprised of Christians. Won't they be chagrined to know that some dude on the Internet thinks they're beta.

My husband served in the special forces in Finland, which is largely secular, but he says most of the SF guys he served with were Christian. His ancestors in the post-Viking Christian era of Stormaktstiden, aka the era of Sweden as a great European power, conquered most of the Baltic.

There are countless examples of masculine, patriarchal Christians, starting from Peter and Paul, right up to the present day. A person has to be willfully ignorant not to know this.

Blogger TheCitadel January 17, 2015 10:36 PM  

And this is why you are on my blogroll. Bravo, Vox. Great post.

I do not think we should discount anything as inevitable, but I truly do see the contingents aligning that will presage our comeback and the stunning fall from grace of Modernity.

This will be chaos, catastrophe, and devastation on an almost Biblical scale. Globalism has set up the dominoes for a collapse and if we are smart we will exploit it with such ferocity and speed that our enemies will not even be able to stand.

Liberalism with all its comforts and all its comfortable lies will lead its followers to wreck and ruin. The golden era approaches I feel, and the Traditionalist patiently waits and plans for his ascent from among the elemental forces that have been with us since the primordial seas.

I am reminded of the Rime of the Ancient Mariner...

"The many men, so beautiful!
And they all dead did lie:
And a thousand thousand slimy things
Lived on; and so did I."

Blogger James Dixon January 17, 2015 10:46 PM  

> Mega-churches are not real churches.

Fortunately, that's not your decision to make.

Anonymous kh123 January 18, 2015 12:27 AM  

Well, it's good to know that we can be classed as some sort of Lovecraftian proto-tetrapod, crawling out of an ocean of fear, honor and interest. Protocols of the Elder Ones of Zion.

Blogger Laramie Hirsch January 18, 2015 12:51 AM  

It was good today to see fellow Traditional Catholics among the Dread Ilk.

If anyone is still reading comments in this post, to the uninformed, I want to add that the Church is in the middle of a war right now. And at the moment, the pope is a man who appears to be a marxist running on a PR campaign of liberalism. The blindness of the old bishops and cardinals is maddening. Even more frustrating is watching how the Left-minded clergy think that more Leftism or Left-sounding churchspeak is the answer.

Pope Francis seems like Obama. His use of encyclicals and synods makes me think of Obama's use of czars and executive orders. Yet, he's the one chosen and consecrated for the position.

Meanwhile, the remaining faithful are in the trenches. People will mock the Church for being a hub of liberalism and corruption, but what these hostile atheists and secularists don't know is that there are pockets of us right now--all over the world--who are worshipping the complete tradition of the Church, not seeking to throw out bits that we don't like.

Whether it's in a dilapidated chapel on the wrong side of the train tracks, a re-tooled protestant church, or even a Vatican II-designed church that faces the West instead of the East--no matter where our dismissive bishops try to stuff us, there are pockets of us gathering in these out-of-the-way places worshipping Mass the way it's been since before the 1960s. We hold to the ideas of faithfulness, sacrifice, chastity, and all sorts of other forgotten behaviors of Christendom.

A lot of us believe that someday, all of the liberals will have died off, leaving the faithful actual laity. Although, I don't think it's that simple. But rest assured: we are growing in strength and numbers.

It is frustrating enough to have to deal with hostile atheists, Muslims, spiteful Protestant family members, or just dull-witted know-nothings. But to have to contend against forces within your own Institution--against Leftist Catholics--it's all so much. There's many battles in many different places, and it can be overwhelming. But it is who makes it to the other side that determines the winners.

Dominus vobiscum, Mornie utúlië.

Anonymous BiffKuo2 January 18, 2015 2:33 AM  

"If anyone is still reading comments in this post, to the uninformed, I want to add that the Church is in the middle of a war right now." - I'm an agnostic libertarian fan of the dread ilk and I have your back. I'd love to see a Christian revival. Our civilization depends on it. You're not on your own.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis January 18, 2015 3:20 AM  

The only non-churchian church is the real Church and unfortunately even Catholics are losing members.

Are they really? I've read that the church's global growth is outpacing world population growth albeit slightly. What I do know is that the church is growing rapidly outside of traditional 'Christendom.' The church is growing the fastest in sub-Sahara Africa. There are also reports of many underground Catholics in China, though who knows how reliable they are. What can be said is that if over 400 years of deliberate persecution of Christianity by the shogunate couldn't eliminate the Kakure Kirishitann then the faith is far more resilient than some would believe it to be.

Blogger Zaklog the Great January 18, 2015 5:32 AM  

if over 400 years of deliberate persecution of Christianity by the shogunate couldn't eliminate the Kakure Kirishitann then the faith is far more resilient than some would believe it to be.

I think Vox said something to this effect, but if they're trying to destroy the Church, harsh persecution is exactly what they shouldn't be doing. "The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church." - Tertullian

What they should be doing if they want to destroy Christianity there is to make it easy and comfortable, much like it has been in the U.S. until recently.

Anonymous GK Chesterton January 18, 2015 8:40 AM  

" I've read that the church's global growth is outpacing world population..."

Most of this growth, unfortunately, is among churchian sects.

Churchians like charismatic protestants who claim magic powers, so called "evangelical churches" that are really praise-band groupies or scams, bible-thumper baptists and the like. In short: The damed spawn of Martin Luther still haunting us.

Like I said, the only non-churchian Church is the real Church. the Holy Catholic Church... which is mostly dying since Vatican II. Hopefully pockets will survive.

OpenID cailcorishev January 18, 2015 9:06 AM  

Are they really? I've read that the [Catholic] church's global growth is outpacing world population growth albeit slightly. What I do know is that the church is growing rapidly outside of traditional 'Christendom.' The church is growing the fastest in sub-Sahara Africa.

The Church is losing members in the mainstream, modernist parishes, because they're aging and dying. Modern Catholics have embraced birth control (something like 95% use artificial birth control, and many of the other 5% incorrectly use NFP as contraception), so they're not replacing the Boomers. The bishops' hope was that Latin American immigrants would fill the pews, but they (and their children more so) aren't nearly as Catholic and devout as the Hollywood stereotype, and the ones who do show up don't put much in the collection plate.

The Church is gaining members in two places:

Traditional hold-outs. These are growing fast and having big families, but the total numbers are still too small to make much of a dent in the losses from the group above.

Africa and Asia, which are outnumbering the losses in the West. The problem here is that they're being converted by post-Vatican II modernist missionaries who aren't exactly demanding, so who knows how deep the faith really goes? I certainly don't, but I have my doubts. In South America, which was thought to be solidly Catholic, we're seeing people pretty easily going back to old pagan ways or straying to the latest charismatic sect that comes along. It seems the old beliefs in magic and death cults and so on weren't all that far under the surface after all, and that's after hundreds of years of conversion.

So we'll see what happens in a few generations, or a few centuries. I just doubt that modernist, watered-down Catholicism will have much more staying power in foreign lands than it has had in the West, once the newness wears off.

Anonymous Corvinus January 18, 2015 10:00 AM  

@calicorishev
One useful metric is to watch where Catholicism is not declining -- that's where there are traditionalists.

Africans are frequently quite traditionalist, surprisingly. (The ultra-liberal blacks we have in the USA or in South Africa seem to be exceptions rather than the rule.) Latin Americans, not so much; they're going Protestant by the millions, and the "Catholics" there are usually infected with Marxist liberation theology. The Church still seems fairly strong in Mexico, but like France, the Catholics there have warred against anticlerical governments (compare the Cristero War and the French Vendée Wars). The most Catholic non-English-speaking country in fact is nowhere in Latin America, but rather seems to be Poland. The rest of Europe, of course, has hit rock bottom, but that also means it cannot possibly go anywhere but up. In the USA and other English-speaking countries, white English-speakers are stable, with about as many converts from Protestantism entering as Catholics lapsing. Catholicism is shrinking in the USA and Canada, but the net losses seem to be confined to the Hispanics and French-speakers respectively, who tend to be leftist.

Anonymous GK Chesterton January 18, 2015 10:06 AM  

Exactly, Covinus. The biggest threat to Catholicism is Protestantism. Hence the Holy Father's quite understandable alignment with Islam and secular statism. Crush the Reformation first, then take on secularism, democracy, etc. Wise strategy, though confusing to some.

Blogger dfordoom January 18, 2015 10:21 AM  

"For what it's worth, Pope Francis is reportedly not an enthusiast of returning Anglicans"

He's probably terrified they will infect the church with Christian ideals.

Anonymous Corvinus January 18, 2015 10:40 AM  

He's probably terrified they will infect the church with Christian ideals.

@dfordoom
He attacks traditionalists all the time, calling us "neo-Pelagians" and "rigorists," among many other things. I don't understand why people don't get that he's a flaming heretic. The only reason people are still Catholic is because of the Catholic Faith, not because of the SJW buffoons in the Vatican who manifestly don't believe in the Catholic Faith.

OpenID cailcorishev January 18, 2015 10:59 AM  

Corvinus, I've heard that about parts of Africa, like Nigeria. Just don't know how widespread it is. They didn't get it from missionaries from Rome that came in the past 40+ years, so I'm not sure where it comes from. Maybe it survived from colonial times.

I used to wonder why the traditional movement is so strong (relatively speaking) in the US, considering the US's relative youth and love of personal independence. Then I realized: we never had a socialist revolution that overtly suppressed the faith. The modern American education tends to gloss over most of those, focusing on Russia, Cuba, and China. But many other countries had them, and one of their first acts is always to suppress the Church to a greater or lesser extent - expelling/imprisoning priests, banning public show of faith (even priests and nuns wearing religious clothes in public), closing monasteries and schools, among the less violent actions. It's not surprising that enough years of that stuff would tend to cause a break with the previous 1900 years of tradition and knowledge.

Anonymous Corvinus January 18, 2015 12:52 PM  

I used to wonder why the traditional movement is so strong (relatively speaking) in the US, considering the US's relative youth and love of personal independence. Then I realized: we never had a socialist revolution that overtly suppressed the faith.

@calicorishev
Actually, I think the opposite: persecution of the Church reinforces Catholicism, while having it in charge -- especially by foreigners -- weakens it.

Take Central Europe. Those countries where the Church was seen as a foreign elite entity tended to reject it (Czech Republic, Slovenia, and Hungary, where it was seen as "Austrian"), whereas countries where a foreign elite were seen to be trying to take it away held onto it fervently (Slovakia and Croatia, which were ruled from less-Catholic Hungary rather than Austria! -- and of course, Ireland and Poland). Hence this odd checkerboard pattern in Central Europe.

In Latin America, of course, Marxists have talked the mestizo masses into seeing the white elites running their countries as the "foreign elite", hence their going Protestant or irreligious wholesale now.

In English-speaking countries, we have been brought up practically at our mothers' knees hearing about the legacy of Anglican Protestantism, where a small elite led by Henry VIII, Thomas Cranmer, and the Cecils forcibly yanked England away from the Faith and imposed a new mass -- the Book of Common Prayer. Therefore, we tend to see Vatican II as the same B.S. repeated in the Vatican by a small elite of Modernists. But if you try to explain this to Latin people (whether Latin European or Latin American) -- except for some French, who can understand due to the rabid anticlericalism that has gone on there since 1789 -- you get blank stares and incomprehension.

Anonymous GreyS January 18, 2015 2:29 PM  

We were in France last year and every mass had a good-sized crowd. Of course, going in we had heard about "all the empty churches" so we were surprised. Unfortunately, no tengo suficiente francés to have had a good conversation with any massgoers about it.

OpenID cailcorishev January 18, 2015 2:36 PM  

Corvinus, good points. One thing about Latin America is it never had Europe's (or even the US's) tradition of intellectual religious study. The people believed and followed the faith as their priests taught it to them, but it doesn't seem like they (clergy or laypeople) paid much attention to the history and theology behind it (similar to 1950s Irish Catholics, actually). Saints from Latin America tend to be virgins and martyrs, which are great -- but Europe has those plus Doctors of the Church like Aquinas and Augustine.

It's the difference between Benedict and Francis, basically. Europe has such a huge foundation of tradition and intellectual inquiry, and the Church in the US sort of borrows on that.

Anonymous Pope a bug or feature of Papism LOL January 18, 2015 2:42 PM  

A record breaking 6 million people turned out in the Philippines to see Pope Francis on Sunday as he said his final goodbyes before ending his weeklong tour of Asia. But before he left, he had one last remark for the men—listen to the ladies and don’t be so macho. “There is only a small representation of females here, too little,” he said during a youth rally. “Women have much to tell us in today’s society. At times we men are too ‘machista’,” the Spanish term for male chauvinists. “(We) don’t allow room for women but women are capable of seeing things with a different angle from us, with a different eye. Women are able to pose questions that we men are not able to understand,” asking that there be more women among the crowd the next time he visits the Catholic university that hosted him.

Anonymous Discard January 19, 2015 5:06 AM  

cailcorishev: There is a book about Mexican Catholicism titled "Idols Behind Altars". The name gives it away.

OpenID standingagainsttheworld January 19, 2015 7:21 AM  

Read it:

http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/chesterton/everlasting/part2c6.htm


Christianity ''dies'' and always rises from the dead.

OpenID standingagainsttheworld January 19, 2015 7:30 AM  

Mr: Mike C.

You posted in part:

"Islam is a masculine religion where as Christianity is beta."

The Knights Templar, Hospitiler and Teutonic might disagree with you.
As might the Conquistadors.
As might the Christos of Mexico.
As might the Imperial Marines of the Theban Legion. Or their brothers in the 12th (Armed with Thunder Bolts) Legion.
As might the foot soldiers of Charles Martel.
As might the Iberian soldiers who fought the longest was in history (@712 AD to @ 1492 AD) the Reconquista.
As might the soldiers of the Byzantine Empire and their Armenian brothers.
In fact it is kind of hard for me to think of a single period of history since the birth of the Prince of Peace that his followers were not happily slaughtering the enemies of Christ.
God bless

Richard W Comerford''

Well they still got their asses handed to them by Islam before Charles Martel. All of Christian North Africa and the Levant was lost to Islam and still in its hands to this day. The crusades territorial gains were temporary(outside of Europe). And Christians still seem to be regular victims of the Muslim mobs in the middle east.

Modern technology however may turn the tide decisively.

OpenID standingagainsttheworld January 19, 2015 8:00 AM  

''if over 400 years of deliberate persecution of Christianity by the shogunate couldn't eliminate the Kakure Kirishitann then the faith is far more resilient than some would believe it to be.

I think Vox said something to this effect, but if they're trying to destroy the Church, harsh persecution is exactly what they shouldn't be doing. "The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church." - Tertullian''

I agree and disagree. Christianity does survive a certain degree of persecution and grows.

However in the book: "Triumph of Christianity" by Rodney Stark. A pretty good book by a secular historian.

Christianity can be destroyed as it happened in the Islamic world. Through a combination of dhimmitude and genocide. One incident involved the execution of every christian man(with the aid of muslim mobs) involving castration and losing the right eye or just simple death by the sword if he did not convert and the enslavement of the women into Islamic harems(without the potential to influence muslim men as had happened in the Roman empire). And probably the slavery or killing of the children.

Hence Christianity effectively were destroyed in the middle east except occasional holdouts

Blogger Corvinus January 19, 2015 2:12 PM  

Hence Christianity effectively were destroyed in the middle east except occasional holdouts

What happened in many cases was that all the Christians moved to a different country. Christianity did survive, but they don't necessarily live in those countries any more. Those that used to live in Turkey now mainly live in Greece or Western countries. Those in the Maghreb are now all in France due to the pied-noir exodus. And more recently, many of those from Iraq are now in Assad's Syria or in Sweden. So it's rather inaccurate to say that the areas of the Middle East that are 99+% Muslim are because the Christians were all persecuted into converting. In most cases, they moved. The only exceptions I know of may be Somalia or Afghanistan, but those areas never had any significant Christian presence to begin with.

Anonymous Anonymous January 19, 2015 4:10 PM  

Mr. standingagainsttheworld:

Thank you for your reply wherein you posted in part:

"Well they still got their asses handed to them by Islam before Charles Martel."

When the Holy Warriors of Islam burst out of the Arabian Peninsular they defeated the standing, professional Armies of both the Byzantine and Persian Armies. The Muslims completely overran the Persian Empire and all but destroyed its dominant religion (Zoraterism).

However Christians in both the West and East within 3-years of each other (732 AD & 735 AD. came back from the dead and won spectacular,signal and unlooked for victories at Tours and Constantinople.

And in part:

"The crusades territorial gains were temporary"

The counter argument, or so I have read, is that without the Crusades their would be no Christianity left to speak of in the world; and we would all be Muslims or dead. Of course this counter arguments ignores the workings of the Holy Ghost.

And in part:

"And Christians still seem to be regular victims of the Muslim mobs in the middle east."

I would go farther and say that the ancient Christian communities in the Middle East have been all but destroyed.

Finally in part:

"Modern technology however may turn the tide decisively."

I have also read that at the end of WWI some 85% of the world's Muslims lived under Western Colonial rule; and that the Muslim brotherhood was formed @ 1923 to reverse this status. The yappear to be doing pretty well.

Also @ 1923 the English revisionist historian Hillarie Belloc wrote that Islam would return and threaten the West once again.

I enjoyed your post very much.


God bless

Richard W Comerford

Anonymous Daily Pope Poop January 19, 2015 4:28 PM  

Another joke/mispeak? Seems to be a daily occurance. The hamster wheel keeps spinning...

Pope Francis: Catholics don't have to breed 'like rabbits' and have more children than is safe, responsible: apne.ws/15mQjDa

OpenID standingagainsttheworld January 19, 2015 8:30 PM  

@Corvinus
''What happened in many cases was that all the Christians moved to a different country. Christianity did survive, but they don't necessarily live in those countries any more. Those that used to live in Turkey now mainly live in Greece or Western countries. Those in the Maghreb are now all in France due to the pied-noir exodus. And more recently, many of those from Iraq are now in Assad's Syria or in Sweden. So it's rather inaccurate to say that the areas of the Middle East that are 99+% Muslim are because the Christians were all persecuted into converting. In most cases, they moved. The only exceptions I know of may be Somalia or Afghanistan, but those areas never had any significant Christian presence to begin with.''

That's true. It just seems that Christians if they do not expat cannot survive persecution by Muslims. While Atheist regimes of communist Russia and communist china doesn't seem as successful. Perhaps you can prove me wrong.

@Richard W Comerford

''The counter argument, or so I have read, is that without the Crusades their would be no Christianity left to speak of in the world; and we would all be Muslims or dead. Of course this counter arguments ignores the workings of the Holy Ghost.''

That's true but in that argument I was talking about Christian territories in the holy land.

Anonymous Anonymous January 19, 2015 9:33 PM  

Mr. standingagainsttheworld

Thank you for your reply wherein you posted in part:

" I was talking about Christian territories in the holy land"

I read that after the Brits entered Jerusalem in WWI a British General visited the tomb of Saladin and allegedly remarked that the Crusaders were avenged.

I also read that after WWII Jerusalem had a Christian majority.

I further read that prior to the GWOT Christians in Iraq formed a privileged and protected elite under Saddam.

The point I am trying to make that since the Armenian genocide it seems to my unlettered mind that Christian communities in the Muslim Middle East were not only surviving but thriving.
It seems to be that the demise of said communities started after the West abandoned or attacked traditional allies or regimes that were anti-Islamic (The Shah, Saddam, the regime in Syria, The King of Egypt, the Emperor of Ethiopia) in favor of the Mullahs.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

OpenID standingagainsttheworld January 20, 2015 4:12 AM  

@Richard W Comerford

That remains to be seen. As Isis could possibly cause those Christians to flee or be killed. Massively decreasing Christian populations in the middle east just as they massacred the remaining Christians at Mosul.

OpenID standingagainsttheworld January 20, 2015 4:15 AM  

@Richard

Missed your later comment. I agree. Looks like thriving christian communities got decimated again.

And about what your read where do you get this from?

Anonymous Anonymous January 20, 2015 11:05 AM  

Mr. standingagainsttheworld

Thank you for your reply wherein you posted in part:

"And about what your read where do you get this from?"

I take your question to mean on what I base my pompous opinions on. Kindly correct me if I am wrong. When I was a young Special Forces soldier (back in the Dark Ages) although I did nothing heroic or important I had the opportunity to work with Muslim soldiers from about 9-armies.

And this experience, although I am a semi-illiterate knuckle dragger, caused me to do a bit of reading. I was most impressed by the writings of the controversial revisionist historian Hillarie Belloc.

Almost a century ago Belloc predicted a resurgent Islam threatening the West.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

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