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Wednesday, January 28, 2015

The devil called Driscoll

I know nothing about this "Pastor Driscoll" except for what I've read at Dalrock's. And I would bet considerable money that he's a Swaggart/Bakker debacle just waiting to be uncovered and exposed:
I’ve referenced Pastor Driscoll’s sermon Men and Marriage in several recent posts.  This is the sermon to watch, or better yet, read, if you wan’t to understand what I was describing in The only real man in the room.  In this sermon Driscoll opens with the prayer I quoted from in Fragging Christian Headship:
Father God, I pray that our time would be pleasing to you, that it would be profitable to us, Lord God, as well. I pray for those men who are here that are cowards, they’re silent, passive, impish, worthless men, they’re making a mess of everything in their life and they’re such sweet little boys that no one ever confronts them on that. I pray for the women who enable them, who permit them to continue in falling, those who are mothers and sisters and girlfriends and wives. I pray, Lord God, for those men who are chauvinists, those who are mean, who are brash, who are rude, who are harsh, who, Lord God, think they are tough when in fact they are Satanic. God, I pray for those men that they would have the courage today to not fight with a woman, but to fight with you, to actually find their rightful place in creation, that they might receive a good rebuke so that they can become honorable rather than dishonorable sons. God, I pray for my tone, I pray for our men, and I pray for the women who are listening in. I pray, Lord God, that they would know this comes from a heart of passion, deep concern, and love. I pray, Lord God, that we would think biblically, critically, humbly, and repentantly, and that, Lord God, there would be dramatic life change by the power of the Holy Spirit in the name of Jesus, Amen.
If you read the sermon, you will see that Driscoll repeatedly makes it clear that when he uses terms like dishonorable, Satanic, cowards, passive, impish, worthless, jokes, losers, imbeciles, fools, etc. he isn’t just referring to a few “peter pan” men who don’t have jobs and/or aren’t married.  He is talking about the husbands and fathers who sought out the church lead by Driscoll, the men who brought their wives and children to the sermon.
…most of you men don’t know what masculinity truly is
Driscoll defines the six types of worthless men he regularly comes across.   They are all either cowards or chauvinists and bullies.  And again, Driscoll is addressing this not to men outside the congregation, or even a smallish subset of the men in the congregation.  He means nearly all of the men in the congregation:
Were this a women’s conference, I would not call you all idiots and imbeciles and fools, that you’re a joke, okay? But you men, this is where it needs to go. You’ve been glad-handed and buddied up and positive thinking and you’re a winner and Jesus loves you and you can do better. And I’m telling you, you’re a joke. And the real men in the room know it and they see it. And maybe there’s one woman that you fooled and she doesn’t see it because like Eve, she’s deceived.
The hallmark of a real man, a real Christian man, according to Driscoll, is looking around at the other men in the room and knowing that they are pathetic compared to you.  This is of course exactly what Driscoll is doing throughout the sermon. Again, this is a sermon about men and marriage, and married men are Driscoll’s primary target.  While he makes a short stop in Genesis for background, the inspiration for the sermon is one single verse, 1 Pet. 3:7
Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.
The disparaging of the men in the room goes on to the very end of the hour and seven minute sermon.  I’ll repeat that I highly encourage you to read the transcript.  There is simply too much to quote, as the stream of invective against the men in the room is non stop.
This guy is the epitome of the wolf in sheep's clothing. He's a wannabe cult leader, not a man of God. Reading his words, I can scent the stink of feminist-appeasing, neighbor's-wife-seducing sulfur. The joke, the evil joke, is him.

No man who runs around posturing as "the only man in the room" in this manner is a Christian leader. He's an Alpha male, a pathological seducer who can't stand the fact that there are women in the room who prefer another man to him. I can just about guarantee you that he would react very, very badly to me if I merely walked into his church with Spacebunny and stared at him. His sort of Alpha absolutely hates Sigmas because a) we tend to marry attractive women and b) we see their bullshit for what it is.

Dalrock's close was beautiful: "Miss Flowahs got Driscoll’s message, and no doubt so did the women in attendance." His real message, not the fake sermon given as cover.

I never trust a man who pretends to be talking to God when he is actually talking to the people listening.

Labels: ,

155 Comments:

Blogger frigger611 January 28, 2015 12:37 PM  

This guy is completely sick in the head and your analysis is spot-on.

Good lord, it's nearly impossible to find a pious individual these days, especially in those places you most hope to find them.

Blogger JartStar January 28, 2015 12:41 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Rabbi B January 28, 2015 12:45 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Josh January 28, 2015 12:46 PM  

Yeah, his church collapsed over the fall

Blogger Rabbi B January 28, 2015 12:46 PM  

"The Devil called Driscoll"

He most certainly did.

Blogger JartStar January 28, 2015 12:46 PM  

This is the guy who bought his way on to the Bestseller list.

Anonymous PA January 28, 2015 12:48 PM  

The SJW disconnect: I skimmed through Driscoll's Wikipedia page and got the impression that he is some kind of hardline traditionalist, due to Wiki's heavy emphasis on his attributed anti-feminism and "complementarian" views on the sexes.

By the way, Wikipedia framed complementarianism as a very controversial position to hold.

Blogger Josh January 28, 2015 12:49 PM  

HOW DARE YOU!!!

Blogger AmyJ January 28, 2015 12:51 PM  

If I heard a sermon/prayer like that, I'd get up and walk out. There are too many good, solid, righteous Christian men in my life to give this false prophet the time of day. At least now I know who to watch within my own church: anyone quoting or referencing this evil man.

Blogger Josh January 28, 2015 12:52 PM  

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/

This guy wrote quite a bit about mars hill and Driscoll last year, for those interested in reading more.

Blogger YIH January 28, 2015 12:54 PM  

Josh:
I clicked on that video... By the 30 second mark I was expecting him to start holding up a Shamwow.

Blogger Owen January 28, 2015 12:56 PM  

The SJW disconnect: I skimmed through Driscoll's Wikipedia page and got the impression that he is some kind of hardline traditionalist, due to Wiki's heavy emphasis on his attributed anti-feminism and "complementarian" views on the sexes.

By the way, Wikipedia framed complementarianism as a very controversial position to hold.


Driscoll does advocate complementarianism.

The problem is that he demolishes the men in his congregation (AMOG) in front of their wives and women. He deliberately humiliates them, then says in a final huff, "Now go do your job." Or, more exactly, "Now, go be me."

Christ never built his disciples by berating them in front of their wives or in front of the flock. He instructed. Sometimes, it was stern (when their lack of faith was shown). It wasn't self-serving, which is what Driscoll's rant is.

Blogger Joshua Sinistar January 28, 2015 12:56 PM  

Churches now worship Satan. The Evangelicals have become the Synagogue of Satan. The black churches are just thinly disguised Voodoo ceremonies. Latinos worship some Death Goddess they call a saint, which looks like a skeleton.
God hasn't gone to church since the 1960s. Jesus is just another gardener who mows the lawn at today's House of Sin.

Anonymous takin' a look January 28, 2015 12:57 PM  

-AmyJ

At least now I know who to watch within my own church: anyone quoting or referencing this evil man.

100% agree, unless used as a negative example of male church leadership.

Blogger Josh January 28, 2015 12:58 PM  

God hasn't gone to church since the 1960s.

Calm down Nancy.

There are still thousands of churches across the country preaching the word every week.

Blogger Chiva January 28, 2015 12:58 PM  

I have been in leadership of men's ministries and we would have never talked in public to men in such a way. This was disrespectful and unloving. By addressing his congregation in this way he was painting all men there with his accusations.
I have only a few times addressed somebody in this way. In each instance it was in private and with someone whom I already had some basic trust with. Without relationship this kind of admonishment is a accusation without weight.

Anonymous Tallen January 28, 2015 1:04 PM  

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Blogger Josh January 28, 2015 1:05 PM  

From the link to the sermon transcript:

"Have you ever forced yourself on a woman? You're a rapist. You'll say, "She's my wife." You're a rapist."

Anonymous takin' a look January 28, 2015 1:07 PM  

From what I've seen, he is part of that "ManUp" movement demanding betas marry his....er.....the bad boy alpha divorcees.

Fuck him. As a Dalrock commentor said "would you demand good virgin Christian women to "WomanUp" and marry a burnt out bad boy slob who has STDs, tons of debt, possible "babymommas" around and treats rehab as a second home?"

Better to get a virgin nerd who's got his shit together who can be trained in game.

Blogger YIH January 28, 2015 1:08 PM  

I highlighted and selected: Search Google for ''Pastor Driscoll''
Third entry:
But in a remarkably fast fall from grace, Driscoll resigned Tuesday as pastor of Mars Hill Church, a congregation he founded 18 years ago and turned into a force in the mostly secular Pacific Northwest.

In a statement, Mars Hills' board of overseers said Driscoll hadn't committed any acts of "immorality, illegality or heresy" -- sins that have felled many a powerful pastor.

Instead, the board said, Driscoll is guilty of "arrogance, responding to conflict with a quick temper and harsh speech, and leading the staff and elders in a domineering manner."

Driscoll was not asked to leave, the board added, saying they were "surprised" to receive his resignation letter.

In that letter, obtained by Religion News Service, Driscoll says: "Recent months have proven unhealthy for our family -- even physically unsafe at times -- and we believe the time has now come for the elders to choose new pastoral leadership for Mars Hill."

It seems the Vince Shlomi comparison may be more apt than I first thought.

OpenID trunthepaige January 28, 2015 1:09 PM  

I lived in the Seattle area most of my life. I have friends who went to his church. They were there all the way back when it was a small church. He was once the real deal (or faked it perfectly) but as his church grew huge his ego followed. He ran a theologically conservative church, in a city that hated Christians. A lot of good was done at first, but we all know where that went. There were never any rumors of sex between Mark and anyone except his wife. But yes he is an alpha and could have had a lot of the woman there if that was his way. His sin was a lust for power, he had to be the one and only leader. It went to his head.

Anonymous hausfrau January 28, 2015 1:10 PM  

Josh, you say his congregation collapsed in the fall? Interesting. I wonder how much attendance dropped off by the following Sunday. Such an open ended accusation, or rather insult, toward people he couldn't possibly even know that well had to stick under the skin of many of those men and their wives. Call the men evil bullies and the wives dumb sheep. Nice.

Blogger Josh January 28, 2015 1:13 PM  

CHRISTIAN MEN DON'T PLAY VIDEO GAMES:

"What this means, gentlemen, is your priorities will be Christian, husband, father, employee. Those are your first four duties, it'll take most of your life. You're not gonna have a lot of time. Probably gonna need to put down your tools, your hobbies, your car, your projects, your golf clubs, your Xbox and probably going to need to put down the remote control and your laptop and your iPod to honor your wife parentally. You're not gonna have a lot of time for a lot of other things. And gentlemen, your goal is not to stand before God and tell him what level you got to on "World of Warcraft.""

Anonymous VD January 28, 2015 1:15 PM  

There were never any rumors of sex between Mark and anyone except his wife. But yes he is an alpha and could have had a lot of the woman there if that was his way.

There are nevertheless smokeless fires. I'm not saying he did, I'm only saying it would not surprise me in the least, given the games he was publicly playing.

OpenID genericviews January 28, 2015 1:17 PM  

The sermon has some very appealing elements. There are lots of Christian men who take to heart "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." But they aren't leading sinful lives. So they look for ways they can claim to be sinning. In a twisted sense, they can't be "good" unless they admit they are sinning. But they aren't sinning. A sermon like this shows them how they were sinning all along and didn't know it. So it feeds their need to have something to regret and repent so they can be "good Christians" again. other men in teh audience will see themselves as the "one exceptional man" and pile on with the pastor, "you tell 'em preacher (glad i'm not one of them)". So they get what they want out of it too. The pastor gets his own ego fed because he can take credit for telling the hard truth that no one wants to hear. And of course, the women in the church can smuggly sit back and nod their heads because a man is finally telling the other men. It's win-win-win-win. No risk at all.

A much easier message to swallow than "bring all your tithes into the storehouse!" again.

Blogger wrf3 January 28, 2015 1:19 PM  

Vox wrote: I never trust a man who pretends to be talking to God when he is actually talking to the people listening.

So say we all.

Blogger Josh January 28, 2015 1:22 PM  

Josh, you say his congregation collapsed in the fall? Interesting. I wonder how much attendance dropped off by the following Sunday.

This sermon series was in 2009, so it probably didn't contribute directly to the collapse.

Anonymous Jill January 28, 2015 1:22 PM  

He's never been very subtle in his megalomania. I'm surprised at how long it took for the tides to turn against him.

Blogger jimmy-jimbo January 28, 2015 1:23 PM  

I've never heard of Driscoll, yet Dalrock often comes up with people that supposedly respresent the conservative church, which with this post suggests they are the exception, not the rule. The exception does not make the rule. If you don't like your conservative church for spouting feminist mantras, it isn't a conservative church. It is a wolf in sheep's clothing as you already stated. (This is no different than a PUA's site trying to explain what is a conservative christian church, not necessarily directing this at Dalrock.)

Blogger Feather Blade January 28, 2015 1:28 PM  

The Pyromaniacs have been tallying Driscoll's doctrinal and theological problems for years.

Y'all (including Dalrock) are way late to the party. Driscoll was done and dusted long ago. Let the man languish in his new found obscurity, and move on to a more current heretic.

Blogger Josh January 28, 2015 1:32 PM  

On the other hand, he did make a bunch of Baptists very upset because of his biblical defense of oral sex...

http://barthsnotes.com/2009/06/27/mark-driscoll-slammed-by-baptist-press-over-sex-teaching/

"During the sermon, which was entitled “Sex, a Study of the Good Bits from Song of Solomon,” Driscoll interpreted Song of Solomon 2:3 as referring to oral sex and then said, “Men, I am glad to report to you that oral sex is biblical…The wife performing oral sex on the husband is biblical. God’s men said, Amen. Ladies, your husbands appreciate oral sex. They do. So, serve them, love them well. It’s biblical. Right here. We have a verse. ‘The fruit of her husband is sweet to her taste and she delights to be beneath him.'”"

Blogger dw January 28, 2015 1:38 PM  

A stopped clock is right twice a day.

Blogger GAHCindy January 28, 2015 1:41 PM  

You guys are late to the Driscoll drubbing. He already lost his church and doesn't seem likely to make a comeback.

Blogger GAHCindy January 28, 2015 1:42 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Doom January 28, 2015 1:43 PM  

I'm curious. Did you ever go through the alpha stage? I am guessing you did, but rejected it for a number of reasons. Takes one, even if in the past, to know and hate one. No, no aspersions cast. Just checking something. Such petty things, so easily wounded, and really so weak if you understand their nature. But, people want order, and a king... or chief thug. Freedom for security, so losing both, of course.

Blogger GAHCindy January 28, 2015 1:43 PM  

Oh, look. Somebody else already said that. I could save so much of my and everyone else's trouble if I'd just read the comments first. :)

Anonymous kh123 January 28, 2015 1:45 PM  

"You Are Entering" signs stay up well after the town's been built. Or seen better days.

Blogger GAHCindy January 28, 2015 1:45 PM  

Driscoll might be an extreme example, but I don't think he was an outlier. I saw this kind of thing pretty often before I found the church I attend now.

Blogger GAHCindy January 28, 2015 1:46 PM  

Driscoll might be an extreme example, but I don't think he was an outlier. I saw this kind of thing pretty often before I found the church I attend now.

Blogger Josh January 28, 2015 1:46 PM  

He became a celebrity pastor because the American church is so starved for authentic masculine leadership that even his pale imitation of such filled a void.

Similar to the wild at heart book.

OpenID bc64a9f8-765e-11e3-8683-000bcdcb2996 January 28, 2015 1:46 PM  

"Lord God, for those men who are chauvinists...."
So I guess he is speaking to discriminating Frenchmen?

CaptDMO

Blogger Josh January 28, 2015 1:48 PM  

More weirdness:

In a new free online eBook entitled "Porn-Again Christian: A Frank Discussion On Pornography and Masturbation," Driscoll writes:

"...Masturbation can be a form of homosexuality because it is a sexual act that does not involve a woman. If a man were to masturbate while engaged in other forms of sexual intimacy with his wife then he would not be doing so in a homosexual way. However, any man who does so without his wife in the room is bordering on homosexuality activity, particularly if he's watching himself in a mirror and being turned on by his own male body."

Blogger buzzardist January 28, 2015 1:50 PM  

Driscoll is now mostly a fading footnote. Back when he started in Seattle, he sprouted from a solid church that I sometimes attended when I was in college. Driscoll wanted to plant a church closer to the universities and downtown, and he started more or less in a basement. Driscoll had about a decade and a half in which he build a sprawling church empire. I knew quite a few people from college who joined his church in the early days, and I think pretty much all of them got out after not too long. Driscoll became so wrapped up in the power and in the cult of himself that the whole came crashing down some months back. Driscoll was increasingly exposed for his twisted, manipulative tactics. The man was a vicious bully.

More and more people called him out. He responded by treating all critics as agents of Satan who should be driven out, and eventually there was no one left to stand by him. The straw that may have broken the camel's back may well have been a petty plagiarism charge. Driscoll had become so domineering and divisive that something that stupid was a tipping point in bringing him down. In the end, when Driscoll was forced to step aside in his own church, the few leaders who remained opted simply to disband a congregation of thousands rather than try to continue on in the wake of the mess that Driscoll left.

It really is a pity. Driscoll was a charismatic figure who appealed to a lot of people that typical churches don't reach. He was iconoclastic and brash. His style brought a lot of people to the church who normally would have felt alienated. Driscoll also was drunk on himself. His church proved to be more about him than about Jesus. Unlike with a lot of fallen televangelists, there were never any allegations of sexual misconduct or having to do with money. His fall was pride and power. Driscoll is hypercompetitive and always wanted to win, always wanted to be bigger, always wanted to be more influential.

It's worth noting, too, that part of what brought about Driscoll's downfall was that made some harsh attacks on feminism and homosexuality. The SJW crowd went after him. They found internet posts he'd made under a pseudonym where he trolled SJW types, which made them even more apoplectic. They weren't what brought Driscoll down ultimately. His own bullying leadership style and pride did that. But one does have to give Driscoll credit for not bowing to the SJW crowd, which actually borders on a majority of the people in Seattle.

Anonymous scoobius dubious January 28, 2015 1:51 PM  

Sorry, I was kinda-sorta busy watching "Too Many Cooks" for the 20th time to be busy with this goofus.

"His sort of Alpha"

PEDANTIC TAXONOMIST TRIGGER WARNING: I personally don't put a whole lot of stock (not none, mind you, just not too much) in this kooky Alpha/Beta/word salad thingy, but I will say this -- if you want to go ahead and believe that there's an objective set of criteria for this sort of stuff, you can't say "his sort of Alpha" any more than you can say "his sort of prostate cancer." Now granted (yeah, I saw you aspies a-comin' over the ridge) there can arguably be lots of types of prostate cancer, but at the closing bell we still have to distinguish between "prostate caner" and "NOT-prostate cancer". If you get my drift. Sorry to belabor the obvious, but ya know... Asher might be hiding around here somewhere.

Anyway it's a rather minor annoying point, but I like being annoying. It's fun.

"absolutely hates Sigmas because a) we tend to marry attractive women and b) we see their bullshit for what it is."

IRRITATING LITERALIST ASPIE TRIGGER ALERT: your use of the pronoun "their" is ambiguous here: if it refers back to "fake" Alphas (if that category can even exist), then OK fine, fer sure fer sure, I see where all the bullshit is coming from (or would if I cared). But if it's the other possessive, you oughta know, bucko, that beautiful women never have any bullshit. Or rather, their "bullshit" is part of the package so it gets a waiver.

When in doubt, always consult Chrissie Hynde.

End of irritation.

Blogger Owen January 28, 2015 1:52 PM  

Similar to the wild at heart book.

I read that about a year ago (talk about late to the party). The book struck me as a jumping off point. Incomplete. Timid, really.

It's remarkable how much a person can shift mentally after they break free. The idea that "Wild at Heart" was popular due to the counter-culture message tells you how far things have slid.

Anonymous Stickwick January 28, 2015 1:52 PM  

In his photos, Driscoll's rarely smiling, or it's an insincere fraction of a smile. Now, a man can look content and at peace without smiling, but there doesn't seem to be any hint of that in Driscoll, no contentedness or peace of the Lord about him. Instead, there's a sort of darkness about him. I showed photos of him to my husband without saying who he was or anything about him, and my husband's immediate impression was that there is pain and darkness behind Driscoll's eyes.

Anonymous realmatt January 28, 2015 1:55 PM  

Any man that tries to get on the good side of the wives when addressing a couple is not to be trusted. Its the easy way out. Its the way of the golden calf and Edward G Robinson.

Anonymous Ezras January 28, 2015 1:57 PM  

I don't understand why it sounds strange, but whenever I hear "Father God" and "Lord God" it just sets off a red flag. Not sure if it is the semi-implied redundancy or something else. So I checked it on Goog ngrams (link) and found no appearance prior 1935.

Blogger Josh January 28, 2015 1:57 PM  

Sorry to belabor the obvious, but ya know... Asher might be hiding around here somewhere.

Hehehe

Blogger Rabbi B January 28, 2015 2:04 PM  

Gotta love how this man totally misused and twisted the most basic of scriptures about what the deception of Eve was. I can guarantee this man believes women are superior to men because they give birth and know what it means to endure pain, when the reality is that the pain was given as a form of punishment not a banner to be waved pridefully in everyone's face.

I guess now the deception of Eve is all about being an innocent victim of a barbaric maniac, rather than direct disobedience to the will of the G-d of the universe. G-d was just out to fool Eve right?

Blogger Krul January 28, 2015 2:06 PM  

OT: I was just playing around with the Google ngrams thing Ezras linked and put in the word "internet". Apparently that word was used between 1900 and 1905. I wonder what it referred to back then.

Anonymous Curlytop January 28, 2015 2:07 PM  

VD: "There are nevertheless smokeless fires. I'm not saying he did, I'm only saying it would not surprise me in the least, given the games he was publicly playing."

I concur. If you look more into Driscoll, he not only berates men and emasculates them in front of the women, but then turns around and champions the "Sex Sermons" that are all the rage in various American MegaChurches. The focus from the pulpit is to be as vulgar and sexually explicit as possible in the guise of "promoting healthy marriage."

Isn't that a charming combo...

Blogger JCclimber January 28, 2015 2:08 PM  

"JCclimber, I pray that our time would be pleasing to you, that it would be profitable to us, JCclimber, as well. I pray for those men who are here that are cowards, they're silent, passive, impish, worthless men, they're making a mess of everything in their life and they're such sweet little boys that no one ever confronts them on that. I pray for the women who enable them, who permit them to continue in falling, those who are mothers and sisters and girlfriends and wives. I pray, JCclimber, for those men who are chauvinists, those who are mean, who are brash, who are rude, who are harsh, who, JCclimber, think they are tough when in fact they are Satanic. JCclimber, I pray for those men that they would have the courage today to not fight with a woman, but to fight with you, to actually find their rightful place in creation, that they might receive a good rebuke so that they can become honorable rather than dishonorable sons. JCclimber, I pray for my tone, I pray for our men, and I pray for the women who are listening in. I pray, JCclimber, that they would know this comes from a heart of passion, deep concern, and love. I pray, JCclimber, that we would think biblically, critically, humbly, and repentantly, and that, JCclimber, there would be dramatic life change by the power of the Holy Spirit in the name of Jesus, Amen."

Ever encounter a salesperson who puts your first name (or last name) into every other sentence? What was your reaction? Mine is a building rejection of every word coming out of their mouth. They are using my name vainly.

It drives me NUTS to listen to someone dropping "Father God", "Lord God", and so forth into every or every other sentence in their prayer. Are they trying to remind God that He is the one they are praying to? Themselves? Their audience? Or is it a magical incantation like pagan god prayers, where if you repeat a magical name often enough, it adds power to your prayer?

And I second the notion about putting a mini-sermon into your prayer, not being a red flag warning, but an out and out declaration that something is wrong.

Anonymous Giuseppe January 28, 2015 2:09 PM  

Josh,
So he was a closet alpha-fag wanker?
Well...it does fit...

Blogger Thordaddy January 28, 2015 2:10 PM  

I'll bet a million dollars this Driscoll would never claim himself a genuine white Supremacist.

Blogger JCclimber January 28, 2015 2:10 PM  

Obviously, JCclimber isn't my name, but I challenge you to put your own name in there and imagine someone talking to you in a normal tone of voice. And then dropping YOUR name into the conversation to your face, with that frequency.

Opinion?

Blogger Rabbi B January 28, 2015 2:12 PM  

Is this the same Driscoll?

http://www.driscollcontroversy.com/?p=1

Blogger Owen January 28, 2015 2:16 PM  

JCclimber,
That doesn't bug me as much. I know some guys who pray earnestly that way, though it's more of a verbal crutch (like "um" and "ah"). Also, he is praying to God. While I would find it unnerving if he did it to a human, he is praying to God. The Alpha and the Omega. He may have adopted it to try to keep himself wrangled, if he knew he was prone to rants.

Overall, doesn't bother me. YMMV

Blogger Josh January 28, 2015 2:18 PM  

Is this the same Driscoll?

http://www.driscollcontroversy.com/?p=1


Yes

Anonymous Yet another guy assaulted by SJWs January 28, 2015 2:20 PM  

"It's worth noting, too, that part of what brought about Driscoll's downfall was that made some harsh attacks on feminism and homosexuality. The SJW crowd went after him. They found internet posts he'd made under a pseudonym where he trolled SJW types, which made them even more apoplectic. They weren't what brought Driscoll down ultimately"

Are you sure about that?

This reeks of a typical SJW attack.

A white Christian man says something SJWs don't like, they run him out of his profession.

What's strange is you guys seem to be taking the sides of the SJWs??

Anonymous rienzi January 28, 2015 2:20 PM  

"...Masturbation can be a form of homosexuality because it is a sexual act that does not involve a woman. If a man were to masturbate while engaged in other forms of sexual intimacy with his wife then he would not be doing so in a homosexual way. However, any man who does so without his wife in the room is bordering on homosexuality activity, particularly if he's watching himself in a mirror and being turned on by his own male body."


Hey, Pastor Driscoll, I guess you absent from class on the day they discussed "projection" in psych. 101

Anonymous GreyS January 28, 2015 2:21 PM  

This sort of Prayer/Lecture thing is very, very common in American churches and it strikes us Catholics, with our treasury of prayer, as very strange and false. I have several (non-Catholic) pastor friends and I think all of them use this technique in varying degrees. Much of the time it is basically a lecture with "Father God" thrown in every once in a while. I hear it on Christian radio all the time too.

Blogger Shibes Meadow January 28, 2015 2:21 PM  

You might remember him from such films as "Locker Room Towel Fight: the Blinding of Larry Driscoll".

Blogger JCclimber January 28, 2015 2:23 PM  

Reading through the transcript, his first 3 paragraphs after the prayer were sound. But the 4th paragraph, he makes a gradual curve to the left (sinister), with the turn steepening in more and more as the sermon goes forward.

The thing is, Satan himself works his deception by mixing his lies with about 90-95% truth. He also can quote scripture.

And that is what is so wrong with many christians today, is that they aren't themselves grounded in what the Bible says, and means, and depend on their leadership to explain it to them. That allows the leaders to start introducing (on purpose or accidentally) incorrect theology into the doctrines that they teach.

Peter tells us that each of us should be ready at all times to give a reasoned defense for what we believe. How many of us can do that at the drop of a hat?

Blogger Josh January 28, 2015 2:23 PM  

This reeks of a typical SJW attack.

It wasn't. Go read the patheos blog I linked to.

A white Christian man says something SJWs don't like, they run him out of his profession.

What's strange is you guys seem to be taking the sides of the SJWs??


Perhaps we know more about this story than you do.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera January 28, 2015 2:28 PM  

Just so I'm clear on the implication, this guy Driscoll is probably undercutting the men as part of a sexual strategy to sleep with their wives, right?

Blogger Krul January 28, 2015 2:28 PM  

Re: Rabbi B,

I followed your link to this video where Driscoll claims to be able to "see things", visions of sins in other peoples' pasts, which he calls "spiritual discernment".

What's interesting isn't so much what he's saying, as his body language while he says it. Ear touching, face touching, rapid blinking, looking down and away, hand hiding/holding. Deception tells. I'm no expert, but it looks to me like he's telling lies. Does anyone else see this?

Anonymous Aeoli Pera January 28, 2015 2:29 PM  

Also he's elevating himself by implication, and continuously consolidating his AMOG status.

Anonymous Curlytop January 28, 2015 2:29 PM  

"The thing is, Satan himself works his deception by mixing his lies with about 90-95% truth. He also can quote scripture.

And that is what is so wrong with many christians today, is that they aren't themselves grounded in what the Bible says, and means, and depend on their leadership to explain it to them. That allows the leaders to start introducing (on purpose or accidentally) incorrect theology into the doctrines that they teach."

PREACH!

Blogger Josh January 28, 2015 2:34 PM  

I'm not sure I agree with this assessment that the good rabbi linked to:

Driscoll’s ministry is a corrupt tree that exhibits the following bad fruits, as we show on this website:

1. Perverse language and corrupt communication

Driscoll frequently uses perverse and crude language. He often mocks Scripture and makes fun of men of God. He dresses in a casual way that is unworthy of the pulpit.

2. Sexual licentiousness

Driscoll has frequently said that his favourite book of the Bible is Song of Solomon, and this gives him an opportunity to talk about sex in the most sensuous and irreverent way. His latest book, Real Marriage (2012), deals with self-stimulation, the use of sex toys and forms of cybersex. The most provocative of all involves sodomy within marriage. [Challies blog]

http://www.challies.com/book-reviews/the-driscolls-and-real-marriage

3. God loves punk-rock music

Worldly punk-rock music forms a major part of Driscoll’s life and ministry. He has referred to hip hop artist Jay-Z as a genius, and referred to Christian rap artist Lecrae as a missionary of the 21st Century.

4. Jesus loves tattoos

Driscoll’s church proudly supports tattoo artists in their work. The issue of tattoos is discussed on the Mars Hill Downtown Campus under the headline: Jesus Loves Tattoos. Driscoll has no objection to Christian people being tattooed.

5. Visions of past sins

Driscoll claims that he has the gift of discernment that allows him to see the sins of his congregation.

All these issues are dealt with on this website.

Blogger Joshua_D January 28, 2015 2:39 PM  

When I read Dalrock's recent posts about Driscoll, my first thought was, "Who the hell is Mark Driscoll?" Then Dalrock had a post that showed Driscoll's early photo vs. Dricoll today. I saw the pics of him from when he was younger and I thought, "He looks kind of like a punk." Not a punk rocker, mind you. Then I read a few of Driscoll's comments and stuff Dalrock linked to and I thought, "This Driscoll guy is an asshole. Who would choose to sit and listen to that garbage?"

Anonymous Aeoli Pera January 28, 2015 2:40 PM  

Okay, one last shot at a quick explanation.

Driscoll is AMOGing over and over, elevating his own SSMV and diminishing the other men's SSMV. This suggests his sermons are motivated by the Alpha sociosexual instinct to be king of the hill and stay there. In turn, this would statistically imply that he is also probably following his natural AMOG instinct to sleep around in the group, although this doesn't necessarily follow (so that it's absence wouldn't logically obviate the previous statements). He could just be AMOGing for the goodfeelz of status whoring.

There, do I have that right?

Blogger Joshua_D January 28, 2015 2:43 PM  

Also, I think Driscoll, at best, was pretending to be Alpha, pretending real hard. Check out his body language in this video with his wife no less. That doesn't come across as very Alpha to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anCM4hLEja8&feature=youtu.be&t=56m20s

Blogger Rabbi B January 28, 2015 2:44 PM  

Or this:

"They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth."

Blogger RobertT January 28, 2015 2:54 PM  

Hallelujah.

"I never trust a man who pretends to be talking to God when he is actually talking to the people listening."

There's an epidemic of this going around. This is why I don't go to prayer meetings. Some of the things people say in public prayer make me run for cover.

Anonymous scoobius dubious January 28, 2015 2:58 PM  

As usual, my prescription for all these types of stoooopid feckin hang-ups is a healthy dose of the first Pretenders album (well, for us purists, frankly, there's really only one Pretenders album and it's the first one, the rest is sort of spare change). Over and over and over again. Keep playing it until it makes SENSE.

If that doesn't work (and if it doesn't then you need to seriously question why you need to keep living), then Doctor Scooby prescribes a very strong and constant shot of Johnny Ramone and the New York Dolls.

Lookin' at you, Kratman and JC Wright: get your Pretenders, Ramones Leave Home and NY Dolls treatments ASAP. And get those fucking dildos out of your asses. That's GOTTA hurt.

Blogger Rabbi B January 28, 2015 3:01 PM  

"Some of the things people say in public prayer make me run for cover. "

There is something to be said in favor of prayers that are more liturgical in nature (Jewish or Christian).

Blogger Josh January 28, 2015 3:10 PM  

http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/mark-driscoll-real-marriage

He also notes: “I grew more chauvinistic. I had never cheated on a girlfriend, but I never had a girlfriend who did not cheat on me. And now I knew that included my own wife. So I started to distrust women in general, including Grace. This affected my tone in preaching for a season, something I will always regret.” (p. 14)

Anonymous Huckleberry -- est. 1977 January 28, 2015 3:10 PM  

Worldly punk-rock music forms a major part of Driscoll’s life and ministry

Like what, Bad Religion, Black Flag and the Circle Jerks?

He has referred to hip hop artist Jay-Z as a genius, and referred to Christian rap artist Lecrae as a missionary of the 21st Century

Oh.
Swing and a miss for the Christian Ghetto...

Blogger LP 999/Eliza January 28, 2015 3:12 PM  

His work could be to get the word of God out. His words are a distraction and unsound but ever well meaning.

OpenID dalrock January 28, 2015 3:12 PM  

Thanks Vox,

Did you see the two pictures of Driscol I linked to in my first post on the series, "The only real man in the room"? I think you would find them very interesting, and I think they explain without words why he fell from his position.

@Josh
HOW DARE YOU!!!
That is the grand finale to the same sermon. The opening prayer and other parts Vox quoted from were Driscoll just warming up. And the topic of the sermon was 1 Pet 3:7, telling husbands to love their wives and live with understanding.

@Owen
Driscoll does advocate complementarianism.

Yes. But it is something entirely of his own creation. See his sermon "Women and Marriage" (links on my blog if you can't find it) where he explains how headship and submission work. I'll do a post on it this weekend, but the short version is he starts by telling the women that it is optional. Then he reminds them that they can always call the police or the church on their husband if they think he is sinning. Then he explains that headship only applies for the "big decisions", and in all other (all day to day decisions) cases the husband is to defer to his wife. For those rare big decisions, he should generally not actually make the call, but should either wait for his wife to agree or outsource the leadership to someone else as a mediator. In some very rare cases, the husband may have to make the call though, and Driscoll explains what these look like with examples from his own marriage. He then explains that what this should look like is the husband insisting on spoiling his wife when she objects. Headship means she lets him spoil her.

But yes, he is a complementarian...

Anonymous DT January 28, 2015 3:12 PM  

Josh: I clicked on that video... By the 30 second mark I was expecting him to start holding up a Shamwow.

HOW DARE YOU...NOT BUY YOUR WIFE A SHAMWOW!!!

Blogger LP 999/Eliza January 28, 2015 3:13 PM  

What, wait, did I just enter a alternate bizzaro warp, modern rap, jay z, a visionary?

No.

Blogger Josh January 28, 2015 3:13 PM  

Swing and a miss for the Christian Ghetto...

I think the Christian ghetto has been in the Driscoll hating business for a long time.

Anonymous scoobius dubious January 28, 2015 3:14 PM  

"There is something to be said in favor of prayers that are more liturgical in nature (Jewish or Christian)."

Good point. As you'll recall, Jesus had some interesting things to say about the privacy and humility of prayer. I suppose "liturgical" could be understood as a sort of public privacy. One of the big problems of both Jewish and Christian liturgical prayer is the risk of becoming self-congratulatory. Something I've always liked about the Catholic mass (disclosure: I'm a fucking Catholic!) is the pause where we're asked to offer one another the sign of peace. The sudden cessation and personal acknowledgement of one another is really pretty cool.

Blogger Josh January 28, 2015 3:15 PM  

we're asked to offer one another the sign of peace.

Peace signs?

Freaking hippies...

Blogger Retrenched January 28, 2015 3:16 PM  

People who claim to be perfect or without sin are the greatest monsters of all.

Blogger Rabbi B January 28, 2015 3:18 PM  

"His words are a distraction and unsound but ever well meaning."

"I urge you . . . to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. For such people are not serving the Messiah, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people."

Blogger JartStar January 28, 2015 3:20 PM  

Most Evangelical prayers I hear which are a mess disregard the Trinity when praying so they pray to God in God's name, or thank the Father for dying at Calvary and the like. The proper format is to pray to the Father in Jesus' name when petitioning. There's a wonderful confidence as a believer to know we can go to the Father with the Son interceding and perfecting prayers on our behalf, with the Spirit as the bond between us and Christ and one in divine will.

Anonymous VD January 28, 2015 3:20 PM  

That's why he was trying to AMOG. His whole purpose was to make his wife jealous enough by showing her how all the women wanted The Only Man in the Room that she'd actually want to have sex with him.

The problem, of course, is that no man is a hero to his valet. Just as the guy dating the supermodel is the only one who can't put up with her shit anymore, the wife married to the big man can't be impressed with how attractively important he is.

Blogger SirHamster January 28, 2015 3:21 PM  

(disclosure: I'm a fucking Catholic!)

So, not a priest then.

OpenID dalrock January 28, 2015 3:24 PM  

Regarding the pictures I referenced in my comment above, you can see the same thing if you start with the video linked in the OP (or "How Dare You!!!") to see tough guy Driscoll. Tough guy Driscoll made enemies, but everyone was afraid of him. Then around the time things blew up on him he switched his look to the one featured in this article: http://www.christianpost.com/news/reaction-to-pastor-mark-driscolls-resignation-includes-sadness-gratitude-from-mars-hill-church-community-128141/

It isn't a surprise that once he went soft he was overwhelmed with a list of old grievances.

Blogger Josh January 28, 2015 3:25 PM  

That's why he was trying to AMOG. His whole purpose was to make his wife jealous enough by showing her how all the women wanted The Only Man in the Room that she'd actually want to have sex with him.

This makes sense.

Would it be taking that idea to far to think it was actually the purpose of his entire ministry?

Blogger Josh January 28, 2015 3:26 PM  

So, not a priest then.

He didn't specify that it was with women...

Blogger SirHamster January 28, 2015 3:26 PM  

Most Evangelical prayers I hear which are a mess disregard the Trinity when praying so they pray to God in God's name, or thank the Father for dying at Calvary and the like. The proper format is to pray to the Father in Jesus' name when petitioning.

I'm not sure what to think about Christians praying to Jesus; Jesus is God, and he is our intercessor, but Jesus' example was to petition our Heavenly Father.

Anonymous Ed January 28, 2015 3:32 PM  

Not sure about being an alpha. I think he just has little man syndrome. Seen him live and he's pretty short. He was also an asshole.

Anonymous p-dawg January 28, 2015 3:34 PM  

@Josh: "There are still thousands of churches across the country preaching the word every week."

How many of them are 501(c)3 corporations? Any of them which are cannot be teaching the Scripture. Not unless they can somehow serve two masters.

Blogger Josh January 28, 2015 3:38 PM  

How many of them are 501(c)3 corporations? Any of them which are cannot be teaching the Scripture. Not unless they can somehow serve two masters.

Your logic would also imply that no one who pays taxes is a true Christian.

Perhaps you should sit down and take a few plays off, champ.

Blogger dw January 28, 2015 3:42 PM  

How exactly is a church that doesnt render unto Caesar serving two Caesar?

Blogger Josh January 28, 2015 3:46 PM  

Btw, my prediction for the next mega church pastor to fall is Perry noble in south Carolina.

Blogger Feather Blade January 28, 2015 3:46 PM  

@Josh re: Rachel Held Evans

I wouldn't take her as the most reliable source for anything... well, anything. She's about the SJW-est SJW that ever SJWed, with a generous slathering of feel-good churchianese platitudes to hide the utter lack of Biblicality in her positions.

Anonymous scoobius dubious January 28, 2015 3:48 PM  

"(disclosure: I'm a fucking Catholic!)

So, not a priest then."

Oh Gawd. FFS*. If you're gonna go off and do the whole Catholic-mocking thing, you might at least try being as funny as Sondheim.**

* -- points for those who know Ozblogistan.

** --extra points for the first ilk who gets the ref

Blogger Josh January 28, 2015 3:49 PM  

Rachel Held Evans

I wouldn't take her as the most reliable source for anything... well, anything. She's about the SJW-est SJW that ever SJWed, with a generous slathering of feel-good churchianese platitudes to hide the utter lack of Biblicality in her positions.


I'm well aware of her. What I quoted was directly from Driscoll's book. Just happened to find it on her blog.

Anonymous jm January 28, 2015 3:51 PM  

All of the sound and fury led me to wonder what was really going on in there.*



*Mark Driscoll's head.

OpenID cailcorishev January 28, 2015 3:52 PM  

What's strange is you guys seem to be taking the sides of the SJWs??

Sometimes there are more than two sides.

SJWs probably didn't like him; they don't like any Christian who doesn't spend most of his time apologizing for Christianity. That doesn't mean everyone they attack is right.

Driscoll preached a theology that was dangerous because on the surface it looked like he was challenging men to be better men, but underneath (not that far under) he was entirely feminist in his ranking women as superior to men and exhorting husbands to subject themselves to their wives.

It sounds like he did it because it gave him a charge to be the One Alpha in the room while the men groveled and the women admired him. Who knows if he actually believed it or not, but he got an awful lot of people to swallow it, so it doesn't matter.

Blogger Joshua_D January 28, 2015 3:56 PM  

Josh January 28, 2015 3:46 PM

Btw, my prediction for the next mega church pastor to fall is Perry noble in south Carolina.


I visited that church several years ago during some conference. I think it was a pastor's conference or something. The pastor of the congregation I was with at the time invited me for some reason. I think there may have been some seminars on music ministry and since I played in the band, he invited me along. Anyway, I did not enjoy that experience ... at all. I remember thinking how fake everything seemed, how "marketed", and the people just seemed, well very fake. Christ's Church can't be branded and marketed. You can't sell people in salvation. Of course the pastor of the congregation I was with and the other members who went with us just had a wonderful time. I left that congregation about a week later.

Anonymous Kyle January 28, 2015 3:57 PM  

The Driscoll saga is mostly over... for now. I won't be surprised when he's back on the scene starting a new church somewhere and this starts all over again. I wouldn't mind deporting Mark Driscoll, Steven Furtick, Ed Young Jr., and their ilk to another planet. They've done enough damage here already.

"He's an Alpha male, a pathological seducer who can't stand the fact that there are women in the room who prefer another man to him."

That's a spot-on analysis, IMO. Driscoll actually has pretty good theology, but it's rendered almost totally irrelevant by his deranged persona.

I'm rather astonished so many of you had never heard of him. Over the past few years he's gotten so much controversy in Evangelical spheres that I would've expected that only those readers who aren't Christians would be unfamiliar with him.

I've been waiting for the Manosphere to take down Rachel Held Evans (linked above.) Her snarky tone, cookie-cutter SJW opinions, and know-it-all mentality are tedious and predictable. She'd be easier to ignore if she wasn't the inexplicable darling of alt-evangelical sites that I otherwise enjoy most of the time.

Anonymous Curlytop January 28, 2015 3:57 PM  

Josh January 28, 2015 3:46 PM
Btw, my prediction for the next mega church pastor to fall is Perry noble in south Carolina.

Good candidate. I knew of him in college because while most guys graduate and move on, Noble stayed behind to work for the Residence Life Office. He always came off as a swarmy used "gospel" salesman. I used to snicker at him then. Seeing what he's become only confirms my opinion of him all those years ago. Driscoll and Noble are cut from the same Rick Warren cloth.

Anonymous ThirdMonkey January 28, 2015 3:58 PM  

Had I been there for that sermon, I wouldn't have left. I would've physically stood up in opposition to him until the distraction of a lone man eyeballing him and shaking his head disrupted him or caused him to STFU.

As an aside, thanks to all who offered up prayers for me during my deacon's meeting Monday night. As I stood up in opposition to the pastor and chairman of the deacons to address the issue of non-widows being added to the list of widows, I distinctly heard other men behind me loading their magazines and charging their weapons, so to speak. I wasn't the only one who was upset about it. Everyone else was just waiting for the first guy to stand up. It went on for three hours, and we determined that there will be no unwed shoggoths and/or unwed mothers added to the widow's list. What was funny was that it was the GenXers and Millennials who stood with me in opposition to the Boomers, who saw no problem with it.

I pray to our Heavenly Father, in Jesus name. I once heard a youth pastor open a prayer with "Hey, God..." Yeah, he didn't do that again. But then again, I am a the church asshole. Cover your tats, and take off your cap. This is the Sanctuary of the Lord.

Blogger Kyle January 28, 2015 3:58 PM  

By the way - when I say theology, I'm speaking more about issues outside of sex-related opinions.

Blogger Josh January 28, 2015 4:02 PM  

I've been waiting for the Manosphere to take down Rachel Held Evans (linked above.) Her snarky tone, cookie-cutter SJW opinions, and know-it-all mentality are tedious and predictable.

What's there to take down? She's pretty openly egalitarian and a proponent of the gospel of nice.

Blogger Josh January 28, 2015 4:04 PM  

It went on for three hours, and we determined that there will be no unwed shoggoths and/or unwed mothers added to the widow's list. What was funny was that it was the GenXers and Millennials who stood with me in opposition to the Boomers, who saw no problem with it.

Excellent news, praise God!

OpenID cailcorishev January 28, 2015 4:06 PM  

I followed your link to this video where Driscoll claims to be able to "see things", visions of sins in other peoples' pasts, which he calls "spiritual discernment".

They say Padre Pio could see people's sins. I don't think he went around bragging about it, though. Of course, for him it just meant more hours in the confessional, not a fancy church and a big salary.

Anonymous J. J. January 28, 2015 4:10 PM  

"Then I read a few of Driscoll's comments and stuff Dalrock linked to and I thought, "This Driscoll guy is an asshole. Who would choose to sit and listen to that garbage?"

I think the thing is that he started out fairly solid but as his empire grew so did his ego and certain character flaws asserted themselves in growingly terrible ways. As one person said, over time he dropped his Calvinism and grew more Charismatic (I know Calvinism doesn't appeal to some here but you probably have friends that are Calvinists and still regard them as decent people and solid believers, so don't make too much of his early passion for Calvinism). And it's not that his church became visibly charismatic, as in suddenly started having people speaking in tongues and rolling in the aisles in the services.... it was him personally, getting direct revelation from God. Even in his mea culpa address to his church after his fall, he blamed his behavior on being an angry young prophet.

I never paid much attention to him, but I had a friend (of great faith and wisdom, who I admire a lot) who thought Driscoll was pretty cool - but that was back maybe in the 2005-2007 time frame. Like a festering sore, the problems grew over time though. Apparently he had little accountability.

Anonymous Ed January 28, 2015 4:12 PM  

Great news!

OpenID cailcorishev January 28, 2015 4:12 PM  

That's great news, ThirdMonkey. Well done.

I'm not surprised at the generational divide you noticed. I think there's a lot more openness than people suspect toward traditional ideas among the under-50 set, but they've never encountered them. Big changes could happen when the Boomers are out of power, if that openness can be channeled in the right direction.

Blogger Josh January 28, 2015 4:23 PM  

Big changes could happen when the Boomers are out of power, if that openness can be channeled in the right direction.

The great irony of the boomers is that they recreated the very world they were fighting against.

As Francis Schaeffer wrote:

"...the hippies of the 1960s did understand something. They were right in fighting the plastic culture, and the church should have been fighting it too... More than this, they were right in the fact that the plastic culture - modern man, the mechanistic worldview in university textbooks and in practice, the total threat of the machine, the establishment technology, the bourgeois upper middle class - is poor in its sensitivity to nature... As a utopian group, the counterculture understands something very real, both as to the culture as a culture, but also as to the poverty of modern man's concept of nature and the way the machine is eating up nature on every side."

Anonymous Porphyry January 28, 2015 4:37 PM  

"The problem, of course, is that no man is a hero to his valet. Just as the guy dating the supermodel is the only one who can't put up with her shit anymore, the wife married to the big man can't be impressed with how attractively important he is." --- polygamy: its not just for Mormons anymore

Anonymous Noah B. January 28, 2015 4:37 PM  

"If you read the sermon, you will see that Driscoll repeatedly makes it clear that when he uses terms like dishonorable, Satanic, cowards, passive, impish, worthless, jokes, losers, imbeciles, fools, etc. he isn’t just referring to a few “peter pan” men who don’t have jobs and/or aren’t married. He is talking about the husbands and fathers who sought out the church lead by Driscoll, the men who brought their wives and children to the sermon."

In all fairness, they did voluntarily keep coming back for more, week after week, in spite of all the abuse Driscoll heaped on them.

Blogger JCclimber January 28, 2015 4:39 PM  

Late last year I asked for prayers as I pushed for getting my (large) company to eliminate same-sex domestic partner benefits, arguing that all states where we operate allow same-sex "marriage" and therefore this option wasn't needed and was costing the company money.

My entire project team objected to me leaving that idea in the presentation to upper management, but I stuck to my guns. Now, that proposal didn't go anywhere, but.......


the idea has been planted. At first the idea seems insane. Then unreasonable. Then reasonable, but impracticable. Then obvious. Then "why didn't we do this 10 years ago?!".

Occasionally over the next few years, I'll drop into discussions with management that I know a way we could save several million $$$ annually, but it would require our company to be actually serious about saving money.......it has to start somewhere, with someone.

Anonymous Stryker4570 January 28, 2015 4:46 PM  

Rachel Held Evans will soon have her own just desserts. She and Nadia Bolz Webber (Super Radical Lutheran Chick preacher) are headlining a women's conference hosted by a certain Tony Jones, an 'Emergent Church' leader. (Pro Homo, higher critical view of the scriptures, far left liberal) Unfortunately he turns out to be a sociopath, abandoning his wife and kids for his true 'Spiritual Wife' even writing a book on 'Spiritual marriage' to justify his actions. Apparently the evidence against the guy is beyond question, including literal physical abuse of the wife. When various people called Rachel Held Evans' attention to the matter she blocked them from her social media pages and deleted their comments. I guess she wants to be famous, even if it means cozying up to the very kinds of people she supposedly stands against. You can read some of it here; http://michaelnewnham.com/?p=20428

Blogger R.P. January 28, 2015 5:04 PM  

As far as I know he does NOT have a reputation for adultery and has not, at this stage, been accused of such.

Anonymous jay c January 28, 2015 5:11 PM  

Driscoll has said some things I agree with in the past as well as things I don't. I'm not too impressed over all. I've known a few men like him and prefer not to have them around.

This sort of Prayer/Lecture thing is very, very common in American churches and it strikes us Catholics, with our treasury of prayer, as very strange and false.

Then again, King David was pretty fond of it, what with the Psalms and all. Driscoll may be completely insincere, but flowery, preachy prayers have a very long history in just about every religion that has ever existed. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with prayers that are a three-way conversation between the petitioner, God, & others. The problem is when the point isn't to talk to God at all, but using prayer solely as a means to browbeat someone into aligning their behavior with your own ideals.

Full disclosure: I'm putting the final touches on a family prayer guide that is intended to be used as a tool to strengthen family ties, teach wisdom, and encourage prayer. I use lots of flowery, preachy language to give the prayers a more poetic and formal attitude.

Anonymous Steve January 28, 2015 5:26 PM  

Why would you keep going back to a church whose pastor calls you a pussy in front of your wife?

Must be a lot of masochists in Seattle.

I'm suprised that, in all the years of him preaching this shit, nobody seems to have ever invited him out to the car park to settle the question of who the only real man in the room was.

Driscoll looks like he would be handy with his fists, but he's still just a professional God-botherer/multi-level marketer. Surely at least one of his congregation had the inclination and the ability to give him a holy hiding.

I wonder how much money he salted away from the gullible over the years?

Anonymous AT January 28, 2015 6:18 PM  

@Josh:
That's why he was trying to AMOG. His whole purpose was to make his wife jealous enough by showing her how all the women wanted The Only Man in the Room that she'd actually want to have sex with him.

This makes sense.

Would it be taking that idea to far to think it was actually the purpose of his entire ministry?


I read up on Driscoll a year or two ago. He actually came out and "confessed" at one point that many of his early "sex" sermons were directed at his wife with the intent of getting her to do things in bed that she didn't want to do.

Anonymous Ain January 28, 2015 6:20 PM  

Not judging people is often used as a cop-out to excuse bad behavior, but in this case, he's actually doing it, assuming everybody there sucks except for him. What a pompous douche.

OpenID cailcorishev January 28, 2015 6:28 PM  

Why would you keep going back to a church whose pastor calls you a pussy in front of your wife?

I gave a longer version of this at Dalrock's, but in short, I think a lot of men go looking for a church that will challenge them at all, and that's rare. Most churches today (and I'm not exempting any denominations here) are of the "I'm okay, you're okay" variety, where if you haven't actually killed, robbed, or raped anyone lately, Jesus loves you and everything's fine.

A lot of men want something meatier than that, someone to look them in the eye and say, "Hey, sinner, do better." They don't have much experience with that, so they think that's what Driscoll is doing.

Blogger Brad Andrews January 28, 2015 6:35 PM  

Reverence for God doesn't require a specific style of prayer. "Hey God..." could be quite valid, even though it is often an excuse to lack any formal foundation. Flowery prayers are often the same too, including those with "religious language."

I do find it odd that people make fun of alternative worship styles on Vox's site. He is far from strict in that area as far as I can see, at least in the music he likes.

I don't much care for the driving beat that infects everything today, but I am not going to claim it is inherently ungodly. I just find it annoying.

Blogger Tom Kratman January 28, 2015 6:50 PM  

I'll have to take your word for it, Scoob, not having had the experience myself.

Blogger grendel January 28, 2015 7:22 PM  

Another preacher to watch is Mark's sometime friend Doug Wilson. Doug also talks about manning up but he's also preaching to the wives. He once preached that if a man disagreed with him, the man's wife should rat on her husband to the elders.

Doug's also, inexplicably, a friend to pedophiles. Google Steven Sitler.

Anonymous Carlotta January 28, 2015 8:25 PM  

Prayed for you. Good job.

Anonymous Quartermaster January 28, 2015 8:33 PM  

@Porphyry

"polygamy: its not just for Mormons anymore"

Polygamy? Really? You hate men that much? :-)

Blogger LP 999/Eliza January 28, 2015 9:08 PM  

V's correct, the super duper saint who is soo attractive exhausts the wife, where is her shine? its blocked by a man like this. Beautiful women want their own shine. Ego, the prayer was creepy.

OT: MK my outlook/hotmail wont load, However, a few day back, I retrieved every lost email in the event the gamma goes back to the police. Anyways, I sent a reply back to gmail. If you hadn't given me that response I'd feel worse about the situation. All I am referring seems to be a upset gamma orbitor that I tried to be nice to but ultimately was told off for rejecting him. So far its been a few days since he wrote and the police still said no matter what is left on voice mail, ps3 or email, I am not to respond.

Anonymous Viidad January 28, 2015 9:18 PM  

Nice to see another one bite the dust.

I was working as a contractor for Calvary Ft. Laud. when Pastor Bob Coy's affairs came out last year.

There was another megachurch without much accountability for the rock star pastor.

I've never seen so many sexually repressed/oppressed singles who were afraid to marry and afraid of sexual sin at the same time. It was a weird scene. I mean, Coy would talk about how tough it was to have a great marriage... and urge people not to marry... then at the same time, urge them to avoid lust.

Whatever.

Anonymous scoobius dubious January 28, 2015 10:49 PM  

"I'll have to take your word for it, Scoob, not having had the experience myself."

Well I'll have to give you partial credit for at least being sorta mildly amusing once in a way; it's not a bad riposte, as far as amateur ripostes go, even though it mis-states the case. (you might look up the word "speculation" for use in your next tedious diatribe). But I'll admit I chuckled, I'll say that much. Onya, hoss. (There's some real multiculturalism for the bored spectators.) By the way, why are you even replying to me? Don't you have a mirror that needs staring into for way too much time?

Eh, I'm just fuckin' with you, everybody needs an arch-enemy once in a while, it sharpens the view. But now you need to get on with your Johnny Ramone before you consider hitting back; once we're done with that we'll do some advanced stuff like Patti and Tom.

Anonymous kh123 January 28, 2015 10:55 PM  

"Even in his mea culpa address to his church after his fall, he blamed his behavior on being an angry young prophet."

During the Calvinism debate IIRC, Vox quoted Piper saying something similar.

Anonymous Stg58 / Animal Mother January 28, 2015 10:56 PM  

I'm so happy I've never had to deal with people like Driscoll at church.

Anonymous Stg58 / Animal Mother January 28, 2015 10:57 PM  

Uh...which Calvinism debate? There have been several.

Anonymous Curtis January 29, 2015 12:23 AM  

Your logic would also imply that no one who pays taxes is a true Christian.

Perhaps you should sit down and take a few plays off, champ.


Rome does not belong in the Church.

Anonymous rycamor January 29, 2015 1:54 AM  

AT January 28, 2015 6:18 PM

@Josh:
That's why he was trying to AMOG. His whole purpose was to make his wife jealous enough by showing her how all the women wanted The Only Man in the Room that she'd actually want to have sex with him.

This makes sense.

Would it be taking that idea to far to think it was actually the purpose of his entire ministry?

I read up on Driscoll a year or two ago. He actually came out and "confessed" at one point that many of his early "sex" sermons were directed at his wife with the intent of getting her to do things in bed that she didn't want to do.


That's just freaking bizarre. And pathetic. And I would guess about the most guaranteed not to work strategy ever. And I really can't imagine what he hoped to gain by confessing this. Unless he was trying to self-destruct somehow.

Anonymous A. Nonymous January 29, 2015 2:04 AM  

Rome does not belong in the Church.

Correct. Rome is the Church.

Anonymous kh123 January 29, 2015 2:15 AM  

"Uh...which Calvinism debate?"

More a lone post, but here.

Anonymous Ain January 29, 2015 5:08 AM  

Viidad: "I've never seen so many sexually repressed/oppressed singles who were afraid to marry and afraid of sexual sin at the same time. It was a weird scene. I mean, Coy would talk about how tough it was to have a great marriage... and urge people not to marry... then at the same time, urge them to avoid lust.

Whatever."


Besides being contradictory, it's also anti-Biblical. Paul encourages people to marry than to burn with lust and sin.

OpenID cailcorishev January 29, 2015 8:51 AM  

It was a weird scene.

I've seen it in conservative Catholic circles too. They honestly do want to be chaste before marriage; but they've also completely absorbed the secular attitude about how a girl should delay marriage until about 28-30 so they can get a degree and start a career, to contribute to the family and/or protect themselves from being abandoned by a bad husband. Some will rationalize it by saying she needs higher education so she can homeschool, which is such garbage.

So they end up with people in their sexual primes, out and independent in a highly sexualized society for ten years or more, trying to stay pure for someday-marriage. It just ain't gonna happen.

Blogger Corvinus January 29, 2015 10:09 AM  

@cailcorishev

Yup. Noticed that too. Equalism in action yet again. What would make sense would be for only the men to delay marriage until we're established, then marry a younger girl.

Anonymous Curlytop January 29, 2015 10:31 AM  

@Corvinus
Which is how it was done for much of history. But suggest that in many conservative Christian circles and the look you receive is indignation and sometimes open ridicule.

Blogger Mekadave January 29, 2015 10:39 AM  

I was working as a contractor for Calvary Ft. Laud. when Pastor Bob Coy's affairs came out last year.

There was another megachurch without much accountability for the rock star pastor.

I've never seen so many sexually repressed/oppressed singles who were afraid to marry and afraid of sexual sin at the same time. It was a weird scene. I mean, Coy would talk about how tough it was to have a great marriage... and urge people not to marry... then at the same time, urge them to avoid lust.

Whatever.


I had stopped going there around 2002 (semi-long story) and was pretty stunned when I heard that hit the local news last year. Coy was the last guy I would've expected to pull that. Of course, I hadn't been there in more than a decade, and it sounds like things got weird after I left. SMH

Anonymous jamsco January 29, 2015 10:55 AM  

"I can just about guarantee you that he would react very, very badly to me if I merely walked into his church with Spacebunny and stared at him."

Especially if you had your flaming sword with you.

Blogger CM January 29, 2015 11:10 AM  

For the few who think the criticsismof the prayer is flowery language, it isn't.

The main issue was couching a veritable "sermon" (more like a lecture or roasting) in the terms of a prayer. He wasn't praying to God. He was lecturing his congregation.

Now the "Father God" complaints, I'm not a huge fan of this style either, but it is a learned behavior in a certain style of church/worship. But I grew up with Liturgy...sso it makes sense I wouldn't be a huge fan.

Blogger Nick Stone January 29, 2015 11:44 AM  

"I can just about guarantee you that he would react very, very badly to me if I merely walked into his church with Spacebunny and stared at him."

Because that would just be weird.

Anonymous Curtis January 29, 2015 12:39 PM  

Correct. Rome is the Church.

I see what you did there.

Put it this way. The diktats of Caesar and the Roman senate do not belong in the Church anymore than USgov's legislation of man.

Blogger The Overgrown Hobbit January 30, 2015 8:49 PM  

@Ezra whose internet searches seemed to show that "Lord God" hadn't appeared until the 1930s as an evangelical tick. It's been around for a very, very long time, as a part of the "Great Doxology" and a mainstay of Catholic and Lutheran worship (and possibly Methodist and Anglican). O Lord God, Lamb of God, Son of the Father, Thou takest away the sin of the world, hear my prayer. I don't know about my Catholic friends, but I suspect I'm not the only Lutheran who uses that phrasing in her prayer life, particularly in extremis.

But @JC Climber and GreyS, are spot on in describing the way many evangelical preachers seem to pray is if they're preaching a sermon, rather than talking to God. For those from a liturgical tradition, it's very odd-sounding indeed. When I mentioned the phenomenon to Suzette Hadin Elgin, (online) she was struck by it as well (especially all the "justs,") but sadly passed on to her reward before she could investigate it. It is very curious, and I'd love to understand where it comes from.

My knee jerk reaction is to blame the parlous state of public education and the subsequent fall into disarray of the average person's vocabulary and ability to turn a phrase. I suspect there's rather more to it.

OpenID cailcorishev January 30, 2015 9:34 PM  

If someone can't find "Lord God" in Catholic documents, it might be because it was "Dominus Deus" prior to the vernacular being commonly used. For instance: "Sanctus, sanctus, sanctus Dominus Deus sabbaoth," part of the Mass back to at least the 4th century. ("Holy, holy, holy Lord God of hosts.")

Anonymous Didas Kalos January 31, 2015 10:36 AM  

@ genericviews
"The sermon has some very appealing elements. There are lots of Christian men who take to heart "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." But they aren't leading sinful lives. So they look for ways they can claim to be sinning. In a twisted sense, they can't be "good" unless they admit they are sinning. But they aren't sinning. A sermon like this shows them how they were sinning all along and didn't know it. So it feeds their need to have something to regret and repent so they can be "good Christians" again. other men in teh audience will see themselves as the "one exceptional man" and pile on with the pastor, "you tell 'em preacher (glad i'm not one of them)". So they get what they want out of it too. The pastor gets his own ego fed because he can take credit for telling the hard truth that no one wants to hear. And of course, the women in the church can smuggly sit back and nod their heads because a man is finally telling the other men. It's win-win-win-win. No risk at all."

Agreed. Made me wish i had written this first. One fault of the pastors in this day is preaching 'sin consciousness' instead of 'righteous consciousness' message. We are new creatures in Christ. If you aren't changed, you aren't saved. Christian Psychology! smeh. We should be preaching and teaching the Word. (which by the way, teaches us to not let corrupt communication come out of our mouth)

Blogger Tom Kratman January 31, 2015 10:37 AM  

Scoob, you're still a low grade moron. That hasn;t changed and, indeed, given the genetic component it cannot change. One element of evidence for this is that you seem unable to distinguish between run of the muck idjits like yourself - pure amateurs and talentless, to boot - and professionals in verbal play and riposte, lawyers and retired lawyers, say, like me. Go look up the words, professional and amateur. I am the former. You are a weak and contemptible version of the latter.

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