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Wednesday, January 07, 2015

The three laws of behavioral genetics

JayMan explicates them:
  • First Law. All human behavioral traits are heritable.
  • Second Law. The effect of being raised in the same family is smaller than the effect of genes.
  • Third Law. A substantial portion of the variation in complex human behavioral traits is not accounted for by the effects of genes or families.
These laws are more controversial than they should be. No one who comes from a large family will find it easy to take exception to them, and anyone who does must be put to the objective test.

What, specifically, is a behavioral trait that is not heritable? And how would one go about demonstrating that? My impression is that as with many other issues, the fact that most people are binary thinkers renders it very difficult for them to grasp the truth of probabilistic matters. If it can't be answered with an absolute "yes, always", then they assume that the answer must necessarily be "no, never".

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Blogger bob k. mando January 07, 2015 12:05 PM  

VD
the fact that most people are binary thinkers renders it very difficult for them to grasp the truth of probabilistic matters.


*snort*

i was going to 'explain Thordaddy' by pointing out that he seems to have discovered Boolean algebra ... and having discovered binary had decided that he didn't care for analog or even tri-state logic.

Anonymous John Calvin January 07, 2015 12:19 PM  

So much for free will, dude.

Anonymous Jack Amok January 07, 2015 12:22 PM  

Must be a behavior trait of John Calvin to stop reading after two laws and miss the third...

Anonymous Jeromus January 07, 2015 12:24 PM  

Doesn't environment also factor into the equation?

Anonymous Harsh January 07, 2015 12:28 PM  

Doesn't environment also factor into the equation?

According to some experts, very little or not at all.

Blogger Josh January 07, 2015 12:28 PM  

Doesn't environment also factor into the equation?

WHAT DIDN'T YOU UNDERSTAND ABOUT

Third Law. A substantial portion of the variation in complex human behavioral traits is not accounted for by the effects of genes or families.

Anonymous Jeromus January 07, 2015 12:30 PM  

@ Josh

I understand it, but that is not an explicit "aka the environment" statement.

Anonymous Will Best January 07, 2015 12:31 PM  

Contrary to the enshrined conventional wisdom, even in the HBD blogosphere, parenting is simply not that important in the big picture.

(This, of course, is apparently past a certain baseline. Human children appear to need a certain minimum level of support and emotional warmth for normal development, to which Romanian orphanages attest. However, beyond this baseline, extra parenting effort, past what children need to get by, is simply ineffective.)


Doesn't this fly in the face of any concerns about government indoctrination centers? Or is family being defined to only include basic emotional and physical (shelter/food) support rather than religious/political/economic guidance.

Blogger Josh January 07, 2015 12:32 PM  

You could also look at his Second Law as implying the environment as well.

OpenID prariepolyguy January 07, 2015 12:33 PM  

Second Law. The effect of being raised in the same family is smaller than the effect of genes.

Doesn't environment also factor into the equation?

Being in the same family is environment.

Anonymous Stilicho January 07, 2015 12:39 PM  

Doesn't this fly in the face of any concerns about government indoctrination centers? Or is family being defined to only include basic emotional and physical (shelter/food) support rather than religious/political/economic guidance.

No.

Traits that are dependent on content aren’t heritable at all. These include what language you speak, in which particular church you worship, what specific political party you identify. However, the degree and manner to which one interacts with these things are very heritable: how proficient you are with language, how church-going you are, how liberal or conservative. In short, genes can’t specify the content, but they can strongly affect how you interact with that content.

Blogger Student in Blue January 07, 2015 12:40 PM  

I was under the assumption that whenever environment is talked about in regards to child-raising, the people they are around (not just family but neighbors, friends, the pastor/priest, etc) count as the environment, and I thought that was the assumption most people ran with under that subject.

Blogger Nate January 07, 2015 12:42 PM  

"What, specifically, is a behavioral trait that is not heritable? "

Faggotry is hereditary?

Blogger Josh January 07, 2015 12:42 PM  

I think binary thinkers like certainty and are uncomfortable with the unknown.

Blogger Trust January 07, 2015 12:45 PM  

Quite a few children assumed to be black sheep offspring of beta providers prove to be the genetic offspring of thugs. Those would make an interesting study on upbringing, especially when they have siblings fathered by the provider.

Blogger Mindstorm January 07, 2015 12:46 PM  

Here it gets hairy. 'Shared environment' vs 'non-shared environment' does not map exactly into 'family' and 'everything else'.

Blogger Nate January 07, 2015 12:47 PM  

"What, specifically, is a behavioral trait that is not heritable?"

I think you're taking this to far. We have more evidence linking homosexual behavior with environment than genetics.

I'm not saying its impossible to inherit it... but the scales are certainly not tipping that way right now... no matter how much they scream "WE WERE BORN THIS WAY!!!"

Blogger Nate January 07, 2015 12:48 PM  

I bet this whole post is just Vox looking for an excuse to blame his fascination with italian leather shoes, umbrella drinks, and soccer on his poor dad.

Blogger Josh January 07, 2015 12:50 PM  

Hey we don't know if eurofag genes come are matrilinear or patrilinear...

Blogger Nate January 07, 2015 12:54 PM  

good point Josh.

Amended... he could indeed be blaming his poor mother as well.

Anonymous Dumb founded January 07, 2015 12:55 PM  

"Doesn't environment also factor into the equation?"

When you are talking about heritability, the usual equation is something like Phenotype = additive genetic effects (ie, H^2) plus E, and everyone thinks of E as the environment, but it it is not.

E is a combination of non-additive effects (gene X gene, or epistasis) plus an Error term. That error term can include environmental effects.

However, in first world countries, heratibilities are high, because most people get an optimum amount of food etc when growing up. It has been estimated that the heratibilities for height and IQ are around 0.8 in Western countries.

Blogger Bob Wallace January 07, 2015 12:59 PM  

"First Law. All human behavioral traits are heritable."

That's not a law. That's his opinion. He once told me women cutting themselves was inherited.

Blogger bob k. mando January 07, 2015 1:01 PM  

Josh January 07, 2015 12:42 PM
I think binary thinkers like certainty and are uncomfortable with the unknown.



are you ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN this is the correct answer?

Blogger Nate January 07, 2015 1:01 PM  

'That's not a law. That's his opinion. He once told me women cutting themselves was inherited."

I think the recent studies on inherited memories are extreme intriguing and could blow this whole thing wide open.

Never the less... I am extremely skeptical when people make the world so cut and dry.

Anonymous Will Best January 07, 2015 1:15 PM  

No.

Traits that are dependent on content aren't heritable at all.


But you get so much content from your family that he seems to be defining family in the one sense of providing nothing more than some base emotional/physical support when he claims that parenting isn't that big of a deal.

Even if you assume that you are 80% genetic and 20% environment like in height then the statement "parenting is simply not that important in the big picture." is idiotic.

Anonymous Musashi January 07, 2015 1:16 PM  

Maybe sometimes people choose to be the way they are?

Anonymous Stilicho January 07, 2015 1:17 PM  

I think the recent studies on inherited memories are extreme intriguing and could blow this whole thing wide open.


So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

And I see not in my blindness
What the objects were I wrought,
But as God rules o'er our bickerings
It was through His will I fought.

So forever in the future,
Shall I battle as of yore,
Dying to be born a fighter,
But to die again, once more.


I suspect you have something more Jungian in mind, but I could not resist.

Anonymous Drew_Deuce's January 07, 2015 1:20 PM  

Does it make a difference if behavioral traits are inherited through DNA, or "inherited" through spiritual influence?

Many that deal with anger, fear, depression, substance abuse, sexual immorality, greed, poverty, etc also note that these things seem to run in the family.

Wouldn't inaccurately identifying the root cause interfere with ones ability to ultimately change behaviors?

Anonymous Stilicho January 07, 2015 1:20 PM  


Even if you assume that you are 80% genetic and 20% environment like in height then the statement "parenting is simply not that important in the big picture." is idiotic.


Agreed. Especially in light of #3 which would encompass the interaction of #1 and #2 along with the exercise of free will (as noted by Jack Amok, above).

Blogger Nate January 07, 2015 1:22 PM  

"Many that deal with anger, fear, depression, substance abuse, sexual immorality, greed, poverty, etc also note that these things seem to run in the family."

sure but many of those things could merely be a symptom of a genetic pre-disposition to say... obsessive behavior.

Anonymous Huckleberry -- est. 1977 January 07, 2015 1:23 PM  

Faggotry is hereditary?

If I remember my reading correctly, the number of gay men with a gay uncle is well above the threshold of statistical significance.
Now whether that's due to genetics or behavioral malfeasance, I simply do not know for sure, but I can take a guess...

Blogger Josh January 07, 2015 1:24 PM  

The bible does talk about generational sins and generational curses. It also talks about the renewing of our minds. Perhaps this renewal includes changing our genetics?

Blogger Nate January 07, 2015 1:24 PM  

"Agreed. Especially in light of #3 which would encompass the interaction of #1 and #2 along with the exercise of free will (as noted by Jack Amok, above)."

Like I say I think its a great deal more complicated than the OP makes it appear.

Example: Boy is molested by teacher.

damaged boy grows up... molests his own son.

Damaged son grows up... molests his own son.

molestation is hereditary?

No.

Anonymous Drew_Deuce's January 07, 2015 1:25 PM  

"sure but many of those things could merely be a symptom of a genetic pre-disposition to say... obsessive behavior."

Or they might not. Without specifically identifying which genome sequence accounts for the behavioral attributes, this theory essentially tells us nothing we can't observe with our own eyes.

Anonymous Viidad January 07, 2015 1:26 PM  

Gene expression can also be switched on or off. I've read that the actions of parents before fathering children carries an effect. Live horribly, your children are more likely to have genetic issues.

Blogger Nate January 07, 2015 1:26 PM  

i suggest an experiment... we need to track all the pakistanis here in the US and see what percentage of their offspring are having sex with sheep.

if there are generations of american born pakistanis still screwing sheep... then we have some evidence that genetics are involved in sheep screwing.

Anonymous Viidad January 07, 2015 1:27 PM  

@Josh

"The bible does talk about generational sins and generational curses. It also talks about the renewing of our minds. Perhaps this renewal includes changing our genetics?"

I think that's most probably true.

Blogger Josh January 07, 2015 1:28 PM  

Also, w word s word thing that shall not be named folks take note:

As political and religious attitudes are heritable, genetics are likely involved in explaining the persistent differences between people within a race within a country, such as between American Whites in different parts of the country. Often, why Whites in different parts in America vote the way they do (instead as some sort of monolithic racial block) seems to dumbfound many commenters. Yet, American Whites seem to have distinct genetic heritage, even among Britons, hailing from different parts of the British Isles and then subject to different selective pressures here in the U.S.

Anonymous Viidad January 07, 2015 1:28 PM  

@Nate

It wouldn't work. The sheep here are more attractive, meaning it's really, really hard for them to resist the urge.

Anonymous Musashi January 07, 2015 1:28 PM  

Being bad is fun.

Anonymous Drew_Deuce's January 07, 2015 1:29 PM  

"The bible does talk about generational sins and generational curses. It also talks about the renewing of our minds. Perhaps this renewal includes changing our genetics?"

Unless being born again means that you also have your genetic code rearranged, I'm more apt to lean to the spiritual dimension.

Blogger Josh January 07, 2015 1:35 PM  

Unless being born again means that you also have your genetic code rearranged, I'm more apt to lean to the spiritual dimension.

Why couldn't it be both?

It could also work the other way, the more we run from God, the more we have sin hard coded into our dna.

Remember God hardening the heart of pharaoh?

Anonymous cheddarman January 07, 2015 1:36 PM  

Stilicho,

if you have inherited dreams from Patton,

may I never be your foe

Anonymous cheddarman January 07, 2015 1:38 PM  

Nate,

You gotta get the sheep and 2/d or 3rd generation Ameri-Paki's to be near each other, then look away

Blogger Josh January 07, 2015 1:40 PM  

Related, from another post on his blog:

Physically, most women are found to have a bisexual arousal pattern, but this does not translate emotionally. Hence, most—and perhaps almost all women have the physiological potential to be bisexual, but it may take a special set of conditions for that to translate into actual sexual desire.

Anonymous Drew_Deuce's January 07, 2015 1:44 PM  

@Josh: "Why couldn't it be both?"

It could be, I suppose - and that's fine. But if you believe there is DNA predisposing you to certain behaviors, you have to believe that coming the place where "all things are new" includes your genetic code.

But I don't. Since sin seems to be hard-coded in the DNA, that makes it essential to put off the old and put on the new man; the spirit.

Blogger Bogey January 07, 2015 1:52 PM  

but it may take a special set of conditions for that to translate into actual sexual desire.

LOL, alcohol.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera January 07, 2015 1:57 PM  

>First Law. All human behavioral traits are heritable.

Every example of sublime genius refutes the "all" quantification of this statement (which anyway rests upon the shaky foundation of materialism). While it may be true that our every interaction with the world requires our physical bodies as intermediaries (that is, magic is impossible; unproven, as far as I know), and these bodies have heritable behaviors, it does not follow that all behaviors are due to purely physical causes (for instance, the possibility of demon possession has not been disproved- again, as far as i know).

Blogger Thordaddy January 07, 2015 2:00 PM  

Until Jayman reveals the mystery force that has driven him to assert these laws, it MUST BE ASSUMED that he has provided these assertions unwillingly?

In other words, Jayman HAS BEEN FORCED to assert these laws BUT he will not reveal this force to the rest of us?

Can Jayman actually claim "reality" forced him to assert these laws? Where's the empirical proof?

Anonymous Aeoli Pera January 07, 2015 2:05 PM  

This is assuming that "behavior" is not redefined in a circular way to make the first law tautologically true. I'd be okay with that, so long as we have other words to behaviors due to final causes. E.g. nihilism gives rise to stereotyped behavioral traits.

Blogger Josh January 07, 2015 2:05 PM  

Shut up Thor daddy

Anonymous NorthernHamlet January 07, 2015 2:08 PM  

What, specifically, is a behavioral trait that is not heritable? And how would one go about demonstrating that?

Language acquisition and reading. Measure the effect of environmental factors involved over multiple generations of several different families. Chart and compare the deviations without environmental correlation.

Yes, I'm aware that traits that allow reading are heritable. Merely because seeing is necessary, does not mean reading isn't environmental.

Blogger Thordaddy January 07, 2015 2:10 PM  

Bobby...

One is either a Supremacist or anti-Supremacist...

Try it... OR tell us of your third way of being?

Reality is either strictly redundant phenomena (the Equality of redundant phenomena) or redundant phenomena WITH Singularities. If you believe in the former then you are an anti-Supremacist, i.e. a believer in a fundamental universal Equality. If you embrace the latter reality, you are a Supremacist... You believe in objective Supremacy... You believe some phenomena are not replicable.

Now any joker that feigns knowledge of analog and tri-state logic HAS TO KNOW EXACTLY what I'm saying.

What are you, booby?

Anonymous Stilicho January 07, 2015 2:12 PM  

Let's play Thordad-libs

Shut up Thor daddy

Until Josh reveals the mystery force that has driven him to issue this command, it MUST BE ASSUMED that he has provided this command unwillingly?

In other words, Josh HAS BEEN FORCED to issue this command BUT he will not reveal this force to the rest of us?

Can Josh actually claim "sanity" forced him to issue this command? Where's the empirical proof?

Anonymous sawtooth January 07, 2015 2:17 PM  

So if such traits as homosexuality are chosen rather then inherited, then doesn't that support the leftist theory that we are a psychological blank slate when we are born and every trait and characteristic is some combination of environment and choice?

Of course the left is quick to abandon it's blank slate theory when the subject of sexual orientation comes up.

Doesn't the right do the same thing in reverse? We are NOT a blank slate when we are born! Boys will act like boys and girls will be
girls.

The notable exception being homosexuality. Then it is the right that screams "choice!".

Personally I believe it is a combination of hereditary and environmental factors. Even as such a person can still choose to override these things if so motivated.

Anonymous Porphyry January 07, 2015 2:27 PM  

"What, specifically, is a behavioral trait that is not heritable?" will power, righteousness, love, given that these three are not originally biological.

Anonymous Porphyry January 07, 2015 2:28 PM  

oh yeah and also citizenship

Blogger Josh January 07, 2015 2:29 PM  

oh yeah and also citizenship

Anchor babies, yo

Blogger bob k. mando January 07, 2015 2:30 PM  

Thordaddy January 07, 2015 2:10 PM
One is either a Supremacist or anti-Supremacist...
Try it... OR tell us of your third way of being?



gosh, i dunno. if i was stupid enough to think that only one modifying prefix could be used i might be stuck on a binary answer.


Thordaddy January 07, 2015 2:10 PM
If you embrace the latter reality, you are a Supremacist... You believe in objective Supremacy


i believe two things:
1 - God is supreme
2 - Thordaddy is not God

following the Thordaddy logic then
God == Supremacy
God /= Thordaddy
Anti-Supremacy == Thordaddy

Blogger Josh January 07, 2015 2:33 PM  

Until Josh reveals the mystery force that has driven him to issue this command, it MUST BE ASSUMED that he has provided this command unwillingly?

In other words, Josh HAS BEEN FORCED to issue this command BUT he will not reveal this force to the rest of us?

Can Josh actually claim "sanity" forced him to issue this command? Where's the empirical proof?


To quote team Calvin, perhaps this is all just a dramatic play...

Anonymous Porphyry January 07, 2015 2:33 PM  

"Anchor babies, yo" Im going to have to go with no true citizenship here.

Anonymous Bitterclinger January 07, 2015 2:34 PM  

Actually, there is evidence quite suggestive of a genetic link to homosexuality. Left-handed people are significantly more likely to be homo.

Blogger Josh January 07, 2015 2:35 PM  

i believe two things:
1 - God is supreme
2 - Thordaddy is not God


If Thordaddy = Thor's Daddy = father of Thor

Father of Thor = Odin = Norse God

Odin = Norse God = a god

Thordaddy = a god

Anonymous Porphyry January 07, 2015 2:37 PM  

shit that's alot of algebra, I dont know if I can do it in my head

Anonymous Roundtine January 07, 2015 2:40 PM  

"The bible does talk about generational sins and generational curses. It also talks about the renewing of our minds. Perhaps this renewal includes changing our genetics?"

I recall some scientists found different genes are turned on based on environmental stimuli. It may not be so much changed genetics, although that could be a factor, as much as different triggers.

Anonymous Roundtine January 07, 2015 2:41 PM  

I believe in free will because even when I believe I can choose not to give in to instinct or inherited traits, if I truly want to. But maybe that is genetic.

Blogger bob k. mando January 07, 2015 2:43 PM  

Josh January 07, 2015 2:35 PM
Odin = Norse God = a god
Thordaddy = a god



can't be a Norse god unless you fuck horses. it's genetically heritable.

how bout it, Thordaddy? that mare been giving you the eye lately?

be careful, Loki has been known to flip sex as well when he's flipping species. be a terrible thing if you were to get your step-son pregnant.

Blogger Geoff January 07, 2015 2:44 PM  

If homosexuality is a mental illness, and mental illness can be inherited, then homosexuality can be inherited.

Anonymous Clarence Darrow January 07, 2015 2:45 PM  

The third law is invalid as it would imply personal responsibility. My clients are not responsible for their criminal acts!

Blogger bob k. mando January 07, 2015 2:48 PM  

for the atheists / agnostics out there:
God /= a god

it is a Biblical precept that there are many who are 'a god' but there can be only one Supreme God.

Blogger bob k. mando January 07, 2015 2:49 PM  

Clarence Darrow January 07, 2015 2:45 PM
My clients are not responsible for their criminal acts!



Better Call Saul.

Anonymous JayMan January 07, 2015 2:50 PM  

You should see the other key posts in the series, which will help to answer more of your questions:

Environmental Hereditarianism | JayMan's Blog

The Son Becomes The Father | JayMan's Blog

More Behavioral Genetic Facts | JayMan's Blog

I go into more detail and clear up some of the matters raised here.

Anonymous JayMan January 07, 2015 2:51 PM  

Oh, and for the record:

No, You Don’t Have Free Will, and This is Why | JayMan's Blog

This would be true even if behavior was 100% environmentally determined (the key word) – which it's not.

Anonymous clk January 07, 2015 2:53 PM  

"...the fact that most people are binary thinkers renders it very difficult for them to grasp the truth of probabilistic matters"

There are 10 types of people in this world; those that understand binary and those that dont.

Anonymous JayMan January 07, 2015 2:54 PM  

On the Third Law, not genetic and not family environment ≠ due to experiences. See my post Environmental Hereditarianism above.

Anonymous JayMan January 07, 2015 2:57 PM  

Male homosexuality is a case where it's neither (primarily) genes nor choice. Homosexuality is heritable, in the sense that there may be a weak genetic susceptibility, but the proximate cause appears to be a pathogen:

Greg Cochran’s “Gay Germ” Hypothesis – An Exercise in the Power of Germs | JayMan's Blog

Anonymous Porky January 07, 2015 2:58 PM  

I nominate Thordaddy for the positive control group of Nate's experiment.

Anonymous Stilicho January 07, 2015 3:01 PM  

Great, another calvinist atheist: man's actions are merely the predetermined sum of his parts.

Blogger SirHamster January 07, 2015 3:02 PM  

Greg Cochran’s “Gay Germ” Hypothesis – An Exercise in the Power of Germs | JayMan's Blog

Article touts the success of the HPV vaccine and the possibility of vaccines as a cure for cancer.

Would anyone trust a gay vaccine?

Blogger Josh January 07, 2015 3:05 PM  

Im going to have to go with no true citizenship here.

Only for Scottish citizenship...

Blogger bob k. mando January 07, 2015 3:08 PM  

aye, being Scots is a state of mind.

and sheep.

those sexy, sexy sheep.

Blogger Thordaddy January 07, 2015 3:10 PM  

Bobby...

So you believe in the Creator God of the Bible who has created The Perfect Man on earth to whom YOU WORSHIP? This makes sense so far as it goes.

BUT...

Here is where you stumble badly like a child playing his first game of four square...

The Perfect Man = objective Supremacy...

Can YOU not comprehend this ^^^?

And assuming you are white???

You are a white man who worships objective Supremacy...

In other words... A white Supremacist...

BUT YOU ARE NOT a white Supremacist... You're apparently not even a Supremacist... Meaning, you are a "Christian" charlatan...

And in the same way that a token HBD negro SELLS "white man has no free will" to the Dread Ilk with nary a peep of dispute from YOU, Nathan, Joshua and the like, you sell EITHER a bona fide sheepishness or you are simply an evil "white" anti-white Supremacist.

Blogger Nate January 07, 2015 3:12 PM  

I've never actually wished vp had a thumbs up button... But porky suggestion made me look for a split second

Blogger Josh January 07, 2015 3:12 PM  

And in the same way that a token HBD negro

Ahem...DISQUALIFY! much?

Anonymous Greg January 07, 2015 3:15 PM  

Tangentially related:

Intel Pledges $300 Million to Boost Diversity
http://time.com/3657077/ces-intel-diversity-300-million/

Blogger Josh January 07, 2015 3:16 PM  

PorkyJanuary 07, 2015 2:58 PM
I nominate Thordaddy for the positive control group of Nate's experiment.

NateJanuary 07, 2015 3:12 PM
I've never actually wished vp had a thumbs up button... But porky suggestion made me look for a split second


You're suggesting that Thordaddy's documented potential for sexual attraction to horses might also manifest as a sexual attraction to sheep?

Anonymous Dumb founded January 07, 2015 3:19 PM  

It makes sense that most people are genetically buffered against environmental insults to a certain extent, since we are all the descendants of those who survived good times and bad times. The bad times weeded out lots of those who had genes that made them susceptible to environmental insult.

Anonymous patrick kelly January 07, 2015 3:23 PM  

@Nate:"I am extremely skeptical when people make the world so cut and dry."

Even with Glock 9mm vs. 1911 .45?

And wtf with bringing da gay and sheep molesting into this? Obsessed or drunk?

Anonymous Stilicho January 07, 2015 3:32 PM  

And wtf with bringing da gay and sheep molesting into this? Obsessed or drunk?

Chronic gingervitis

Blogger Josh January 07, 2015 3:34 PM  

Also, since nate's Greek ancestors invented gay butthex, it might be those inherited memories he mentioned up thread.

Anonymous Homesteader January 07, 2015 3:35 PM  

Sigh.

First ISteve.
Then Mangan's.
Then Derb.
Now Vox has been JayManned.


Can I find no refuge from this Jayman and his autistic assertions?

By his logic, creches would be fine. All of the things you hold dear and good-family, tradition, Western civilization, free will-all of it- just genetic. Dad could have saved the college money.

It's not turtles all the way down-it's genetics!



Blogger Thordaddy January 07, 2015 3:35 PM  

Joshua...

Jayman disqualifies himself buttjew unwillingly give him a pass? And you are also not automatically suspect of an opposing entity that "progresses" unwillingly. Yet, this is entirely explainable by YOUR LACK OF genuine free will. You are FORCED in everything "you" do and that "force" is as coherent as a bowl of alphabet soup in explaining why Joshua yelps "shut up" like he suffers from acute Turet's syndrome, but actually doesn't.

Blogger bob k. mando January 07, 2015 3:40 PM  

Thordaddy January 07, 2015 3:10 PM
And in the same way that a token HBD negro SELLS "white man has no free will"



why would an Arminian bother arguing with an atheist Calvinist? he will say that i was pre-ordained to think i have free will, i will say that he chooses to think that randomness does not exist ... in spite of all evidence.

boring.


Thordaddy January 07, 2015 3:10 PM
So you believe in the Creator God of the Bible who has created The Perfect Man on earth


Biblically, nothing on earth is Perfect, all is flawed. ( race ) Supremacy is a material, earthly thing.

so, since for you
Perfection == Supremacy
Perfection /= material earthly thing
( race ) Supremacy == material, earthly thing
( race ) Supremacy == anti-Supremacist
Thordaddy == anti-Supremacist

proving twice over now that YOU are an Anti-Supremacist.

why do you worship Satan, Thordaddy?

Blogger Josh January 07, 2015 3:40 PM  

buttjew

Hehehe

Blogger Brad Andrews January 07, 2015 3:42 PM  

My adopted children would make a good, though not conclusive, case for these nature being more important than nurture. All of them have strong tendencies like their birth family that they were not raised with in ours. One did marry into a better off family and follows our ways in some areas, though considers the birth family her family anyway.

Some of this could be due to having been with or in contact with (while in foster care for 2 years) the birth family when young, but I am convinced some is also their nature.

Very little of our core training could overcome the bad habits of the birth family, even for the youngest who only spent a few months in the birth home. She is currently destroying her life in a manner consistent with the birth family, not ours.

Many factors influence them, reinforcing the non-binary element mentioned in the OP, but nature appears to play a huge role in their lives.

Blogger bob k. mando January 07, 2015 3:46 PM  

patrick kelly January 07, 2015 3:23 PM
And wtf with bringing da gay and sheep molesting into this? Obsessed or drunk?


Nate is Greek, i'm Scots.

they are genetically heritable behaviors inexorably expressing themselves. we can't help it.

also, we're on topic.

btw, Thordaddy count is now 4.

Anonymous rienzi January 07, 2015 3:49 PM  

I can't quote the source, but I did see a series that addressed this nature/nurture issue. It seems that about 50% of your behavior is genetic, about 45% you pick up from your peers, the kids you hang out with, and only about 5% parental upbringing.

Some Norwegian media type set out to see if all the money the country spends on social welfare, schooling, etc. makes any difference. The resulting series caused a great uproar in Scandinavia, as it pretty much determined that all that social spending was producing 0% results.

Series is on youtube, guys last name is Ai, Li, or some short thing like that. The hilarious part is seeing the SJW's faces as their pet theories are blown out of the water on camera.

Anonymous Nietzsche's Ghost January 07, 2015 3:51 PM  

Human beings may or may not possess some property referred to as "Free Will".

The answer, however, is completely irrelevant to whether or not humans should think and behave as though they do.

Blogger wrf3 January 07, 2015 3:51 PM  

The Psychopath Inside is a fascinating, if ultimately disappointing, read. It's disappointing because at the beginning of the book, the author claims that behavior is 80% genetics and 20% environment. Then he finds that he has the brain of a psychopath. But he doesn't have full-blown psychopathy. So it isn't clear if he ever revises his 80/20 split.

Blogger bob k. mando January 07, 2015 3:53 PM  

i thought that perhaps growing up in the States, many thousands of miles from any significant population of sheep might help me evade my tragic destiny.

unfortunately, i was tempted.
https://www.muttonbone.com/

i sure the company was probably founded by some damn Jew who was seeking to corrupt me ... but what can i do? nature will out.

Blogger Josh January 07, 2015 3:56 PM  

Now Vox has been JayManned.

What's wrong with JayMan?

Blogger wrf3 January 07, 2015 3:56 PM  

Stilicho wrote: Great, another calvinist atheist: man's actions are merely the predetermined sum of his parts.

Could you answer these questions for me?

1. When you make a choice what, exactly, happens in your brain?
2. Is the first question even relevant? That is, do your choices not depend on the physicality of your brain? If not, why not?
3. What part of your brain comprises "you"? Is it the same as, different from, or overlapping with the part of your brain that chooses?
4. How does the part of your brain that defines "you" interact with the part of your brain that makes choices? I ask this, because studies have shown that it's possible to predict a person's actions before the person is aware of what they are going to do.

Blogger wrf3 January 07, 2015 3:59 PM  

Nietzche's Ghost wrote: The answer, however, is completely irrelevant to whether or not humans should think and behave as though they do.

If it turns out that free will is an illusion, why should we live with such an illusion? Is it better to be disconnected from reality, or is it better to live like Captain Pike on Talos IV? Why?

Anonymous rienzi January 07, 2015 3:59 PM  

The series I referenced in a preceding comment is: "Brainwashed" by Harald Eia. Even if you disagree with some of the conclusions, it touchs on almost all of the topics brought up so far, and is an interesting, if long, watch. On youtube.

Anonymous Homesteader January 07, 2015 4:05 PM  

An inability to consider the views of others, coupled with an astounding conviction of his own correctness.

I avoid his screeds for the same reason I avoid conversations with teens and SJWs- It's tiresome to talk to the All Knowing.

Blogger James Dixon January 07, 2015 4:09 PM  

> I bet this whole post is just Vox looking for an excuse to blame his fascination with italian leather shoes, umbrella drinks, and soccer on his poor dad.

Many traits are known to skip a generation or so and then reappear. It may go farther back than that. Perhaps to the source of his Mexican heritage.

Anonymous HongKongCharlie January 07, 2015 4:13 PM  

Last studies I read indicated that 25% of children born into intact marriages are not the offspring of the presumed father. Skews the heritable values somewhat.

HKC

Blogger Feather Blade January 07, 2015 4:15 PM  

If homosexuality is a mental illness, and mental illness can be inherited, then homosexuality can be inherited.

Your syllogism is flawless, but good luck getting them to admit the truth of your premises.

After all, if it's just a mental illness then it can be cured or mitigated by the application of right set of pharmaceuticals.

Blogger Giraffe January 07, 2015 4:15 PM  

If it turns out that free will is an illusion, why should we live with such an illusion?

WTF? If it turns out free will is an illusion, what choice do we have?

OpenID pancakeloach January 07, 2015 4:15 PM  

What I want to know is why this topic, which ought to be fascinating, so often derails into boring, tendentious materialist pedantry. John C. Wright has quite the series of blog posts on the matter which are far more entertaining, and even THAT devolves into "not this again!" eventually.

Blogger bob k. mando January 07, 2015 4:16 PM  

Thordaddy January 07, 2015 3:10 PM
In other words... A white Supremacist...

Thordaddy January 07, 2015 3:35 PM
Jayman disqualifies himself buttjew unwillingly give him a pass?



uh, just in case you didn't know?

Jews are a subset of Semitics.

Semitics are a subset of Caucasians.

Caucasians are 'White'.

( Jewish ) Supremacy would be a subset of ( White ) Supremacy.

Blogger Josh January 07, 2015 4:19 PM  

( Jewish ) Supremacy would be a subset of ( White ) Supremacy.

/thread

Brace yourselves for the storm front brigade.

Blogger Geoff January 07, 2015 4:19 PM  

You sheep molesters are promoting rape culture. The sheep are victims.

Social justice for the sheep!

Blogger wrf3 January 07, 2015 4:23 PM  

Giraffe wrote: WTF? If it turns out free will is an illusion, what choice do we have?

Magic tricks are illusions. Do you live as if they are real?

Our brains are have a degree of plasticity.
External inputs can effect changes in brain configuration.
At some level, internal events can also effect changes in brain configuration.
Changes in brain configuration can effect changes in the choices we make.

Anonymous WCU January 07, 2015 4:25 PM  

Oh God... He's making sense to me...somebody talk me down...

Anonymous Alec January 07, 2015 4:27 PM  

What's wrong with JayMan?

You mean apart from being a wildly self-promoting leftist black HBD entryist?

Anonymous FrankNorman January 07, 2015 4:34 PM  

There are people on this thread who seem not to believe that humans have souls.

Blogger Geoff January 07, 2015 4:35 PM  

Feather Blade - "After all, if it's just a mental illness then it can be cured or mitigated by the application of right set of pharmaceuticals"

Or maybe a good therapist.

BTW, I haven't been around here much, so please forgive me if this is a dumb question. What is the line between DNA and God? If a gay person says he was born that way, does that mean he inherited the gayness, or does it mean that God made him that way?

Anonymous Giuseppe January 07, 2015 4:36 PM  

Josh, Nate,
Damn. I honestly don't know who I find more irritating Thordaddy or your average SJWanker. The thought experiments that come up are all very grim. But at least don't involve any sheep. Damn Greek perverts.

Also, umbrella drinks are not gay. And Italian leather is very comfortable. So that's just specious ad hominem on both your parts.
There is no accounting for the football though, I admit.

Blogger Nate January 07, 2015 4:37 PM  

"Our brains are have a degree of plasticity.
External inputs can effect changes in brain configuration.
At some level, internal events can also effect changes in brain configuration.
Changes in brain configuration can effect changes in the choices we make."

Or...

We're not machines. We have a soul that exists seperate from our body... that existed before our body and will exist after it... and that soul is what is in control. Body be damned.

As always... Calvinists are just another flavor of satanist.

Blogger Josh January 07, 2015 4:38 PM  

There are people on this thread who seem not to believe that humans have souls.

#notallgingers?

Anonymous Giuseppe January 07, 2015 4:39 PM  

WCU
sorry man. Just jump. It's for the best.

Blogger Nate January 07, 2015 4:40 PM  

' But at least don't involve any sheep. Damn Greek perverts."

Why is it the greek's fault? if you can think of another pakistani behavior as universal as sheep buggery by all means suggest it.

Blogger bob k. mando January 07, 2015 4:46 PM  

Geoff January 07, 2015 4:19 PM
You sheep molesters are promoting rape culture. The sheep are victims.


i only proposition sheep who are behaviorally predisposed by their genetics to like me.

they can't help it any more than i can.



wrf3 January 07, 2015 4:23 PM
Our brains are have a degree of plasticity.
External inputs can effect changes in brain configuration.
At some level, internal events can also effect changes in brain configuration.
Changes in brain configuration can effect changes in the choices we make.




durr hurr?

everything from blood sugar to caffeine to hormones to any number of other drugs can affect behavior ( choices ).

instead of viewing them as further randomized inputs ( especially the interactions between the thousands of different compounds ), you arbitrarily assign these to the Determinist side of the ledger.

ho-tay.

Anonymous hardscrabble farmer January 07, 2015 4:49 PM  

11 YO daughter broke her wrist yesterday while snowboarding. We are from a family that has a very high tolerance of pain. I picked her up at the mountain, took her to the ER and at no time did she cry or act as if she were in discomfort beyond the militations imposed by the break itself. I have driven myself to the hospital with broken bones, watched my grandmother complete a breakfast after setting her nightgown on fire, stitched up my father with a sewing needle while he worked on a crossword puzzle, etc.

This is one of the inheritable traits I am deeply grateful for having known people who describe every ache and pain as "intolerable" requiring narcotics.

Blogger wrf3 January 07, 2015 4:53 PM  

bob k. mando wrote: instead of viewing them as further randomized inputs ( especially the interactions between the thousands of different compounds ), you arbitrarily assign these to the Determinist side of the ledger.

You do know you're babbling, right? Yes, they are inputs. Inputs are not outputs. At some point, all of those inputs cause neurons in your brain to fire, resulting in choices. What part of the neuron firing do you control?

Anonymous Nietzsche's Ghost January 07, 2015 4:55 PM  

@wrf3:
If it turns out that free will is an illusion, why should we live with such an illusion?


If you knew for certain that you had no such thing as Free Will... How would your behavior change?

(I realize that it's bad form to answer a question with a question... but your answer's in there).

Anonymous Giuseppe January 07, 2015 4:56 PM  

"if you can think of another pakistani behavior as universal as sheep buggery by all means suggest it."

I rest my case Nate.
Your first thought when contemplating sheep sex in not just sheep sex, but perverse sheep sex.
It's ok, buddy, it's probably genetic. Hehehe

Blogger wrf3 January 07, 2015 4:58 PM  

Nate wrote: We have a soul that exists seperate from our body... that existed before our body and will exist after it... and that soul is what is in control.

So when the body consumes excess amounts of alcohol, and the body becomes drunk, and starts making bad choices -- you're saying that alcohol is able to affect the soul? Just how does that work, exactly?

Blogger wrf3 January 07, 2015 5:00 PM  

Nietzche's Ghost wrote: (I realize that it's bad form to answer a question with a question... but your answer's in there).

Yes, __my__ answer is in there. But I wasn't asking for my answer. I was asking for your answer since, after all, we might not have the same answers.

Blogger bob k. mando January 07, 2015 5:01 PM  

wrf3 January 07, 2015 4:53 PM
What part of the neuron firing do you control?



i dunno.

what part of Quantum Mechanics do you control?

Blogger LP 999/Eliza January 07, 2015 5:04 PM  

Man and woman are mind, body and soul or if you want spirit.

It is sad that honor, rational precision styled...iconography and excellence is forgotten b/c we or I am a creature of something that wasn't meant to be, to covet, to want. I dont drink but I understand what drives others to the excesses. It is not my place to decide what others ingest.

My personal theory is if I was able to live in a country that allowed LSD or hallucinogens might improve me or bring me down. I dont know but a few hours of ballet on LSD might be the best trip I'll never know. Would it usher in a new world of creativity?

Blogger wrf3 January 07, 2015 5:05 PM  

bob k. mando asked: what part of Quantum Mechanics do you control?

None. None whatsoever. How about you?

Blogger LP 999/Eliza January 07, 2015 5:10 PM  

Where was science when Ohio failed me, failed mom and failed dad?

Nowhere, sci is cold and ruthless.

Anonymous Will Best January 07, 2015 5:10 PM  

Male homosexuality is a case where it's neither (primarily) genes nor choice. Homosexuality is heritable, in the sense that there may be a weak genetic susceptibility, but the proximate cause appears to be a pathogen:

I was under the impression that non-heterosexuals show up in order of magnitudes greater among kids of non-heteros and in children that are sexually abused. In order for this germ theory to be consistent, you would have to be able to contract homosexuality through contact.

Blogger SirHamster January 07, 2015 5:14 PM  

[I] In order for this germ theory to be consistent, you would have to be able to contract homosexuality through contact.[/I]

Like an STD?

Blogger bob k. mando January 07, 2015 5:19 PM  

i don't have a sensorium that goes down to the molecular level.

i wouldn't know if i was controlling it or not.

and neither do you.



LP 999/Eliza January 07, 2015 5:04 PM
My personal theory is if I was able to live in a country that allowed LSD or hallucinogens might improve me or bring me down.



LP, for instance, claims to be deterministically controlled by the external input of the law. otherwise, she'd be balleting while high.

*shrugs*

Blogger Markku January 07, 2015 5:25 PM  

I certainly don't want to contract homosexuality. Who would notarize such a document?

Blogger wrf3 January 07, 2015 5:25 PM  

bob k. mando wrote: i wouldn't know if i was controlling it or not.

So you're agnostic on the question of free will? From what you just said, I would expect the answer to be 'yes', but I just want to make sure.

and neither do you.

a) I know that I don't control the laws of physics.
b) I know what Scripture says on the matter. ;-)

Anonymous The other skeptic January 07, 2015 5:25 PM  

In order for this germ theory to be consistent, you would have to be able to contract homosexuality through contact.

Someone else has already mentioned STDs. I take it you are unaware of things like Toxoplasma gondii which affects behaviorm or various strains of vaginal yeast that also seem to affect behavior.

One of the suggestions with homosexuality is that it is a virus that destroys some cells in the brain. Probably those cells that cause males to change their orientation from all male-group behavior to female attracted at puberty, or perhaps the brain cells in the visual cortex that males seem to have that homosexual males do not have. See for example the work on homosexual rams.

Blogger bob k. mando January 07, 2015 5:32 PM  

Will Best January 07, 2015 5:10 PM
In order for this germ theory to be consistent, you would have to be able to contract homosexuality through contact.



uh, duh? it's already well known that pregnant women with VDs often transmit those diseases to their fetus.

http://radiopaedia.org/articles/in-utero-syphilis-infection

Anonymous rho January 07, 2015 5:41 PM  

I always assumed the homosexual germ was transmitted through the saltpeter the Freemasons put in the wells at Ivy League schools.

It explains everything.

Blogger Josh January 07, 2015 5:47 PM  

It explains everything.

You forgot to mention who sold then the saltpeter...the Jooos...

Anonymous Jack Amok January 07, 2015 6:02 PM  

molestation is hereditary?

In that case, yes it is hereditary. It's just not genetic. Yes, yes, I know what Nate meant, I'm agreeing with him, but pointing out why people make the mistake. We've come to think of genetics ad the sum total of what you get from your parents. Which is sad.

Blogger Brad Andrews January 07, 2015 6:03 PM  

One part that argues against "nature is supreme" is the fact that civilization can happen. If we were all doomed (relatively) to follow our genes, then no advances would happen.

Though the ease at with regression can happen may point to the idea that genetics plays a huge role and must be constantly worked against to remain successful.

Anonymous JayMan January 07, 2015 6:19 PM  

@HongKongCharlie:

"Last studies I read indicated that 25% of children born into intact marriages are not the offspring of the presumed father."

You better read them again. Real number, present and past, in the West, is <2% (probably much less for "intact marriages")

http://twitter.com/JayMan471/status/552221266157907969


Anonymous Azimus January 07, 2015 6:21 PM  

Reading these three laws, it seems that the third law so undermines the first two that it makes the idea of these being "laws" risible. I'm not trained enough to know the logical fallacy, but it seems to me to be a case of "if 3 is true, how can you possibly know 1 and 2 are true?"

Anonymous JayMan January 07, 2015 6:23 PM  

@pancakeloach:

"What I want to know is why this topic, which ought to be fascinating, so often derails into boring, tendentious materialist pedantry."

This, perhaps?

Blogger Mr.MantraMan January 07, 2015 6:24 PM  

You should probably just ask the Leftards if they have any proof of the validity for the Blank Slate Theory.

OpenID cailcorishev January 07, 2015 6:25 PM  

I was under the impression that non-heterosexuals show up in order of magnitudes greater among kids of non-heteros and in children that are sexually abused. In order for this germ theory to be consistent, you would have to be able to contract homosexuality through contact.

Or like Vox was getting at, it's not binary. Look at it like obesity: clearly hereditary to some extent, but you can also control it with diet.

It's pretty obvious to me that some guys were born light in the loafers, whether from genes or an early pathogen, displaying effeminate traits even from a young age. But it's also possible that sexual abuse or a weak/absent father and domineering mother could exacerbate that condition, while being raised in a loving family with a strong father figure in a society that admires masculinity and ostracizes deviancy could ameliorate it.

That could also explain why there seems to be more "gayness" these days, and more in some cultures than others. To go back to the obesity analogy, say X% of people are born with the propensity for obesity. In a society filled with junk food and sedentary lifestyles, maybe all X% of them become obese, but in a society where physical labor is common and sweets and empty calories are hard to come by, maybe only .1*X% do.

It doesn't have to be either/or; it can be this-plus-that.

Anonymous JayMan January 07, 2015 6:28 PM  

@Azimus:

"Reading these three laws, it seems that the third law so undermines the first two that it makes the idea of these being 'laws' risible. I'm not trained enough to know the logical fallacy"

You better actually read the post, and the other posts linked above, because you clearly don't yet understand what "heritable" means.

Anonymous JayMan January 07, 2015 6:31 PM  

@cailcorishev:

"But it's also possible that sexual abuse or a weak/absent father and domineering mother could exacerbate that condition, while being raised in a loving family with a strong father figure in a society that admires masculinity and ostracizes deviancy could ameliorate it."

Nope. Reread the post.

Actually, as far as I know, there's little by way of evidence to the extent homosexuality runs in families. (I for one would love to see some!)

Blogger Nate January 07, 2015 6:38 PM  

"So when the body consumes excess amounts of alcohol, and the body becomes drunk, and starts making bad choices -- you're saying that alcohol is able to affect the soul? Just how does that work, exactly?"

Many physical things affect the soul. Sex effects the soul. Sin effects the soul. Love also effects the soul.

This is laughable man.

And regardless.... drunk people are not crazy. You're in control when you're drunk. You just have lower inhibitions. But if a guy would jump on a grenade to save his friends when he was drunk.... he would do it when he was sober too.

And if a dude would rape a chick when he was drunk... he would rape her when he was sober as well.

Anonymous The other skeptic January 07, 2015 6:45 PM  

"But it's also possible that sexual abuse or a weak/absent father and domineering mother could exacerbate that condition, while being raised in a loving family with a strong father figure in a society that admires masculinity and ostracizes deviancy could ameliorate it."

Nope. Reread the post.

Actually, as far as I know, there's little by way of evidence to the extent homosexuality runs in families. (I for one would love to see some!)


Indeed. However, humans are very flexible and some can be convinced that they should engage in deviant sexual behavior.

Blogger Doom January 07, 2015 6:54 PM  

...My impression is that as with many other issues, the fact that most people are binary thinkers renders it very difficult for them to grasp the truth of probabilistic matters. If it can't be answered with an absolute "yes, always", then they assume that the answer must necessarily be "no, never".

True. And that really sucks, or did until a couple of things came together. Those who think in variations and layers, with sometimes yes and no both being true, are considered of the left. But if these same people believe in a definite bottom line, by they left they are considered fundamentalist. Initially annoying, with a little practice, and given some reasonable self confidence, this can become a little devil's tool... for good or ill, but with grins all around... Well, okay, not ALL around. Inside jokes that no one else gets are still quite pleasant, if they are correct.

All I know is that genetic science takes itself too seriously, as to what it understands. Further, it separates God from science. Now, I understand that to a degree. Too easy to just say "because God". Conversly though, just saying "because not God" is just as weak, I would argue weaker, of a crutch, and easily seen to be more flawed.

A new approach, a splintered approach, would be required. Two schools, who work apart but compare notes often, might be the way. However, the two groups simply do not play well together. When one is in ascension, the other is not allowed. As is, for now, God is out. Of course... if you understand anything... shooing God out doesn't move God. It is men who must move to leave God. God being truth, those men who leave God are outside of truth.

Either in the light or in the dark, the only real choice one can make. If there are shades, levels, layers... many houses in heaven, purgatory, and hell. "Damned fundies!" :p

Blogger wrf3 January 07, 2015 6:57 PM  

Nate wrote: Many physical things affect the soul.

The question is, how? And how do you demonstrate it?

Anonymous The other skeptic January 07, 2015 7:01 PM  

Women in war

Blogger John Wright January 07, 2015 7:11 PM  

" First Law. All human behavioral traits are heritable."

A nonsense statement. The so called law is non-disprovable. What constitutes a 'behavioral trait' is undefined, and, because it cannot be measured, undefinable.

This is just the modern version of astrology, dressed in new garments, and come again.

OpenID pancakeloach January 07, 2015 7:39 PM  

JayMan, thanks for the video link, it was amusing.

Any cursory investigation of the real world indicates that human nature is a thing, and that human beings reproduce other human beings who are like unto themselves, just like every OTHER living thing on the planet. (The Russian fox breeding experiments are fascinating.)

As it turns out, our ancestors were completely right to talk about "good breeding" and "bad blood will out." The reason this common observation is controversial is probably due to the fact that Marxists of all stripes need human nature to be far more malleable than it actually is in order for their Utopia to come about.

Of course as a "satanic" Calvinist I'm sure my opinion is just as wrong as that of the boring godless materialists' and will be roundly excoriated and denounced. ;)

Blogger sconzey January 07, 2015 7:50 PM  

A geneticist once told me (and I paraphrase) "the more I learn about genetics, the less I believe nurture has any effect at all"

Alas, I am but a curious layman here.

Anonymous Darth Toolpodicus January 07, 2015 7:59 PM  

I agree with the "spirit" heh, of the three postulates of JayMan, but I think he over-extends it.

I disagree with his reductionist take on free will as well.

I think he engages in hand-waving with his appeal to emergent properties of complex systems as a necessary deterministic driver for hyper-complex system behaviors.

One can't even satisfactorily demonstrate that contingent information is an emergent property of matter let alone something as complex as consciousness and/or psychology.

Even if it was truly an emergent property, that still would not make it deterministic. Simple low information chaotic systems become rapidly non deterministic let alone moving from (using his example) carbon atoms up to human behavior and on to societal interactions.
The superposition of states is so dense as to remain forever beneath any observation, and effectively nondeterministic.

Blogger Nate January 07, 2015 8:06 PM  

"The question is, how? And how do you demonstrate it?"

You're trying to answer a theological question with science.

That's a dumb strategy.

Blogger wrf3 January 07, 2015 8:22 PM  

Darth Toolpodicus wrote: The superposition of states is so dense as to remain forever beneath any observation, and effectively nondeterministic.

Sure. But the point is that "you" don't determine it, any more than you determine the laws of physics.

Blogger wrf3 January 07, 2015 8:28 PM  

Nate wrote: You're trying to answer a theological question with science.

On the contrary, I'm trying to get you to think more clearly about your theological position based on science. Since God is the author of both Nature and Scripture, both will say the same thing. A contradiction in one area will lead to a contradiction in another.

I think your theological stance is based on a) ignorance and b) wish fulfillment and contradicts both Scripture and Nature. Sure, Scripture says that people have souls. But it doesn't say what souls are. People think they have free will, but this is the result of the fall and is in opposition to what Scripture says. So you've constructed a theology based on a doubly-false foundation.

But, you can lead a horse to water. You can't make him think.

Anonymous JayMan January 07, 2015 8:54 PM  

@John Wright:

"What constitutes a 'behavioral trait' is undefined, and, because it cannot be measured, undefinable."

No, it's pretty concrete. Any feature of an individual's behavior that's reliable (that is, multiple tests/measurements will give roughly the same result) qualifies. (Of course some things are pretty straightforward, like criminal records or ever divorcing). All such things show clear heritability, that is, correlates with genetic variation. The First Law would be easy to disprove if there were human qualities that did not do so. But there aren't any.

Anonymous JayMan January 07, 2015 8:57 PM  

@pancakeloach:

"Any cursory investigation of the real world indicates that human nature is a thing, and that human beings reproduce other human beings who are like unto themselves, just like every OTHER living thing on the planet. (The Russian fox breeding experiments are fascinating.)

As it turns out, our ancestors were completely right to talk about 'good breeding' and 'bad blood will out.'"


Pretty much. Well said!

Blogger Thordaddy January 07, 2015 9:10 PM  

So "racism" is heritable and white male possesses no free will to reject this "racism" and so white male IS BORN a "white supremacist" (where "racist" = "white supremacist").

It is beautiful... True in conclusion and absolutely false concerning the manner in which one gets there.

And still... Jayman does this all unwillingly... Why? How? What are we actually being told? How can a white man use this information to his benefit?

It's all smoke and mirrors... The stuff of an anti-white Supremacist... Maximizing his autonomy at the true believer's expense.

Anonymous The other skeptic January 07, 2015 9:13 PM  

Kids don't read enough and they really should be reading Monster Hunter International or Kratman.

(I lied about that last bit. The report does not say that. It's only what I think!)

Anonymous clk January 07, 2015 9:23 PM  

"People think they have free will, but this is the result of the fall and is in opposition to what Scripture says."

"I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Choose life, then, that you and your descendants may live, by loving the Lord, your God, heeding his voice, and holding fast to him." -- sounds like free will to me.

The fathers speak of two things of importance .. ... free will and imperfect knowledge .. these allow for both your failures and your forgiveness .. if you don't have free will, you cannot sin, and if you had perfect knowledge, you would not be forgiven. So all humans have free will and imperfect knowledge... so of us have more imperfect knowledge than others :)

Anonymous zen0 January 07, 2015 9:53 PM  

@ Nate We're not machines. We have a soul that exists seperate from our body... that existed before our body and will exist after it... and that soul is what is in control. Body be damned.

The Serpent's Deception
…3but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.'" 4The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! ."…


This is the source of the Doctrine of Eternal Torture. If we accept Nate's interpretation, the only thing a failed eternal soul can experience is eternal torture, and yet he finds Calvinism Satanistic, in that one is determined to be predestined for eternal torture from time immemorial.

No wonder people don't want to listen to the Good News.

Anonymous zen0 January 07, 2015 10:00 PM  

And another thing. If the soul is eternal, what is so repugnant about abortion?

Blogger wrf3 January 07, 2015 10:05 PM  

zen0 wrote: This is the source of the Doctrine of Eternal Torture.

Really? How do you get that from this verse?

No wonder people don't want to listen to the Good News.
I thought it was because they are dead in trespasses and sins and that the message of the cross seems foolish to them.

Why do you think people don't want to listen to the gospel?

Blogger wrf3 January 07, 2015 10:08 PM  

zen0: And another thing. If the soul is eternal, what is so repugnant about abortion?

It's taking into our own hands that which God has reserved for Himself. We are to care for one another in the context of life. Only in extremely rare circumstances has God given us the duty to put someone to death. And a child in the womb certainly doesn't fall in that category.

Anonymous zen0 January 07, 2015 10:12 PM  

@wfr3

.> Really? How do you get that from this verse?

To me it is self-evident if combined with the Doctrine of Hell, is it not?

Anonymous zen0 January 07, 2015 10:14 PM  

> I thought it was because they are dead in trespasses and sins and that the message of the cross seems foolish to them.

Maybe some, but for the ones who might be amenable to the concept, the Doctrine of Eternal Torture is a deal breaker. Redemption is a rational concept, the DET is not.

Anonymous zen0 January 07, 2015 10:18 PM  

@ Wfr3 re: abortion:

>It's taking into our own hands that which God has reserved for Himself. We are to care for one another in the context of life. Only in extremely rare circumstances has God given us the duty to put someone to death. And a child in the womb certainly doesn't fall in that category.

Its worse than a technical problem. When you abort someone, you prevent them from experiencing the effects of sin on one's life, so when the judgement comes, they will be naïve and harder to train, which could hamper their failure to adjust.

While some can use the phrase "been there, done that" they cannot.

Blogger bob k. mando January 07, 2015 10:24 PM  

Thordaddy == 5, so he's done for this thread.

which is too bad, because he still hasn't explained why he worships Satan or why he's anti-Jewish ( a subset of White ) Supremacy.



wrf3 January 07, 2015 5:25 PM
So you're agnostic on the question of free will?



that's not what i said.

and, even though you were trying to trap me, that's not what your question meant.


wrf3 January 07, 2015 5:25 PM
b) I know what Scripture says on the matter. ;-)



and yet have never offered an even moderately convincing rebuttal to Vox's points from the great Calvinism / Arminianism War.

why is that?



JayMan January 07, 2015 8:54 PM
Any feature of an individual's behavior that's reliable (that is, multiple tests/measurements will give roughly the same result) qualifies.



child molestation is a behavior.

from everything i've ever seen on this, children who are molested are far more likely to molest others. both while they are still children and also as adults.

that's how you get those tragic chains of familial molestation that Nate was talking about.

so as i see it, you have three options for the 'transmission' of the child molester behavior:
1 - a Lamarckian form of evolution triggered through epigenetics or a disease vector such as your supposed Queer germ
2 - molestation is almost entirely a function of Nurture / environment
3 - child molesters somehow identify children of the child molester typology, even though they come from families in which the trait has not previously expressed

#1 and #3 would both seem to be up there pretty close to Flying Spaghetti Monster territory. but you go on and document it, if you can.

failing to document the Child Molestation question pretty much holes your argument below the water line.

Anonymous JayMan January 07, 2015 10:36 PM  

@bob k. mando:

"child molestation is a behavior.

from everything i've ever seen on this, children who are molested are far more likely to molest others. both while they are still children and also as adults."


Actually, the evidence on this point is not as solid as it sounds (self-report, unrepresentative samples, etc. – sex research in general is one step up from useless.).

The lesson all of you should take away is that an association between X and Y doesn't mean X causes Y. In other words, correlation isn't causation.

And if such a relationship does end up panning out, think how heredity could be involved...

Blogger pyrrhus January 07, 2015 11:05 PM  

Indeed, JayMan cites many studies that show upbringing has remarkably little effect on outcomes, although socioeconomic status, which affords more or fewer opportunities,, has an important effect on "success."

Anonymous zen0 January 07, 2015 11:17 PM  

although socioeconomic status, which affords more or fewer opportunities,, has an important effect on "success."

Yah. The more impoverished someone is, the more their desire to succeed, unless they succumb to the EBT culture.

Blogger wrf3 January 07, 2015 11:29 PM  

zen0 wrote: so when the judgement comes, they will be naïve and harder to train, which could hamper their failure to adjust.

Ye do err, not understanding the power of God. We have no idea what our "spiritual bodies" will be like, regardless of when we die.

Anonymous JayMan January 07, 2015 11:34 PM  

@pyrrhus:

"although socioeconomic status, which affords more or fewer opportunities,, has an important effect on 'success.'"

Not really. The shared environment impact (which is the effect of family once you remove genes) on lifetime income is zero. Success ultimately has nothing to do with family background (beyond biological inheritance).

Additionally, there's Gregory Clark's work, which found a true heritability of social status in the 0.8 range (higher in caste societies like India, where it can approach 1.0).

Blogger wrf3 January 07, 2015 11:38 PM  

bob k. mando wrote: even though you were trying to trap me, that's not what your question meant.

It isn't? I wrote the question. I ought to know what it meant. When you wrote, "i wouldn't know if i was controlling it or not.", then why did you bring it up if you didn't think it was germane to how our minds work? Just what, exactly, are you controlling when you say your mind is free?

and yet have never offered an even moderately convincing rebuttal to Vox's points from the great Calvinism / Arminianism War.

why is that?


I have no idea why some people miss the obvious. I see it all the time elsewhere. You point, and point, and point; explain, explain so more, and explain it again -- and they still won't get it. Even though other people do. For example, the concept of recursion in software engineering is one of the milder forms of this.

When the same explanation convinces some people and not others, it sometimes isn't the fault of the explanation.

So you tell me what part you didn't find convincing. I'll be happy to go through any part of it again.

Blogger bob k. mando January 08, 2015 12:15 AM  

JayMan January 07, 2015 10:36 PM
In other words, correlation isn't causation.



durr hurr. you need to pick up your game around here.



JayMan January 07, 2015 10:36 PM
Actually, the evidence on this point is not as solid as it sounds



uh, i've personally observed a 5 year old girl who was molested acting out.

yes, yes, blah, blah, anecdote is not evidence.

what kind of 'reporting' are you hoping to get? parents of molestees and the molestees themselves report significant behavioral changes ( drug use, collapsing academic performance, etc ) AFTER the molestation.

are you calling them liars? or are you admitting that the behavioral change was driven by something other than genes?



JayMan January 07, 2015 10:36 PM
And if such a relationship does end up panning out, think how heredity could be involved...


now you're just hand waving.



wrf3 January 07, 2015 11:38 PM
So you tell me what part you didn't find convincing. I'll be happy to go through any part of it again.


i'm busy with Stickwick right now.

Blogger Brad Andrews January 08, 2015 1:39 AM  

Thous shall not murder would be a strong argument against abortion.

As to Calvanism, everyone is predetermined if it is true, so their opposition to the message doesn't matter one bit.

That is idiotic.

You may not like eternal suffering, but you will have to take it up with Jesus, for He spoke of it. The rich man in the parable of Lazarus was stuck someplace quite nasty. Nothing points to a way out.

Anonymous Jack Amok January 08, 2015 1:48 AM  

In terms of environmentally induced behavior, the human brain is a learning machine that is frequently rewiring itself to optimize responses to various inputs. How active this rewiring is and what weighting various inputs and outcomes get varies by individual and likely has a large genetic component.

But...

During growth, the human brain also has several critical periods of extra plasticity where it is expected to adapt to the environment. These probably constitute critical windows of vulnerability where the brain can be mis-wired if the child is unlucky enough to be in the wrong environment at that time. Think about the old saw of the baby duckling imprinting on the human that it sees when it first hatches instead of on
it's own duck-mother.

At some point, the brain pathways that control sexual though are forming in a young man. Hormones are suging , producting strong responses and helping cement those pathways. If, during that time, he's exposed to pictures of busty redheads jumping on trampolines, it's likely he will forever have a thing for redheads on trampolines. If he's exposed to whip-wielding, leather-clad dominatrixes, he'll have a thing for dominatrixes.

And if he's molested by the soccer coach... well, that's the $64k question, isn't it? it might not "make him gay" but it sure is going to mess up his thought patterns. It would seem to be reasonable to suggest it might create some conflicting circuits, one that associates men with sex and another that associates sex with something wrong.

Genetics are a blueprint for the construction of our brains, but they're not the construction itself. That is done in the real world under varying conditions. The proteins rolling along the DNA do their best to carry out the instructions, but they bend to accomodate the environment.

Blogger frigger611 January 08, 2015 3:40 AM  

My head's about to explode. JayMan, you have some good stuff to say, but sometimes you wade into the waters of kookiness.

We are not chrome spheres being batted about in some cosmic pinball game where we are flung into sensors that give us +100,000 points or otherwise force us to be drained into the hole of shame, uncounted.

We get dealt a hand of cards in life and we react. We have a measure of power here. Sometimes it is too small to handle what gets thrown our way, and at other times we overcome and become stronger. The catalyst is what we believe (or are led to believe) about ourselves.

To spread the lies that there exists NO control, NO power, is to fall in with the likes of Skinner and Chomsky. But you're a leftist, so what I am saying is not news, is it?

I get your insistence on better defining free will and agency...but... this is one of the lowliest assertions I have ever encountered in my entire half century of life:

JayMan: Oh, and for the record: "No, You Don’t Have Free Will, and This is Why" is the title of one of your posts/screeds. You wrote a line therein, "Life is completely explained by the facts about carbon atoms”, “gravity and electromagnetic charges” (and the other fundamental forces).

It should be noted that, in this screed, you ridiculed a man who asserted otherwise.

Seriously? We've climbed mountains for millennia to get answers, and you say it's all right there in the description of a carbon atom? Or in the 4 fundamentals?

"Life is completely explained" you say?

Set up an ashram, dude, and watch the dollars pour in.

Anonymous Porphyry January 08, 2015 4:25 AM  

"Calvinists are just another flavor of satanist." predestination is just a way to explain why you should behave without getting uppity to bitches. Everyone else actually knows that you are the sum of your actions.

Anonymous Porphyry January 08, 2015 4:31 AM  

"and yet have never offered an even moderately convincing rebuttal to Vox's points from the great Calvinism / Arminianism War." I missed this can I get a link to the post?

Anonymous Porphyry January 08, 2015 4:33 AM  

"Great, another calvinist atheist: man's actions are merely the predetermined sum of his parts." equality works both ways; biatch

Anonymous Porphyry January 08, 2015 4:43 AM  

"Any feature of an individual's behavior" what the hell is a feature of behavior, besides, virtue/ vice/ identity? None of which are heritable.

Blogger Bill Solomon January 08, 2015 4:47 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Cataline Sergius January 08, 2015 7:54 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Cataline Sergius January 08, 2015 7:58 AM  

Faggotry is hereditary?

Yes. At one percent you're not going to get an inheritable genetic trait out of the hapologroups of any base population.

Also, gays tend to reproduce more when society represses homosexuality .

Just a few decades ago, many of those men—at the risk of stereotyping, the most sensitive, artistic, attractive and highest-earning men; that is, perfect husband material—would have got married, had a few kids and led a double life to pursue their forbidden urges. They wouldn’t have bothered their wives for sex and they would have made great fathers.

But now they’re settling down with men, in many cases not having children at all. In other words, a healthy chunk of the most desirable men—men who no doubt would have cooed along approvingly to feminist exhortations—are now off the market, leaving even fewer eligible men in the dating pool.


The end result of this, is that that genetic trait may fall below sustainability within the base group.

Not that it really matters. We are a lot closer to designer babies than anyone thinks.

At the moment it costs about $25,000 to have a kid that is pretty much guaranteed to be free of certain kinds of identified cancer traits. Consider the implications for homosexuality as soon as other traits are positively identified.

All liberals want to be tolerant of course...provided it's someone elses kid.

Anonymous Darth Toolpodicus January 08, 2015 9:01 AM  

@wrf

"Sure. But the point is that "you" don't determine it, any more than you determine the laws of physics"

No, that wasn't the point at all.

Anonymous namjya January 08, 2015 9:35 AM  

An indefatigable commenter!

Blogger wrf3 January 08, 2015 9:44 AM  

Darth Toolpodicus wrote: "No, that wasn't the point at all."

So, if choices are the result of the firing of neurons in your brain, and you don't control the firing of the neurons, then what is the basis for the claim that your will is free?

Will you, like Nate, disconnect the "soul" from the brain? Or will you claim that you do, in fact, control the firing of neurons? If so, do you have a demonstrable mechanism for this?

Or do you have some other solution?

OpenID cailcorishev January 08, 2015 10:13 AM  

In terms of environmentally induced behavior, the human brain is a learning machine that is frequently rewiring itself to optimize responses to various inputs.

Exactly. Even if we're just machines made of meat and all our "decisions" are simply programmed responses to stimuli, we're still machines that learn and form habits. If someone tells me that being sodomized by your parents for years isn't going to change your programming....well, he's told me I don't need to pay him any more attention.

I'm not saying that's JayMan's argument, but that's the straw-man HBD argument that gets set up to be knocked down by people uncomfortable with HBD realities. I've read some of JayMan's stuff, and his basic point -- that we're far more the product of our genes than most people think -- is well-taken in this age of blank-slate beliefs. If he's overstating it, he's still closer to the truth than the liberal who says Head Start is going to start showing a dividend any day now.

Anonymous Darth Toolpodicus January 08, 2015 11:13 AM  

@cailcorishev

"I've read some of JayMan's stuff, and his basic point -- that we're far more the product of our genes than most people think -- is well-taken in this age of blank-slate beliefs. If he's overstating it, he's still closer to the truth than the liberal who says Head Start is going to start showing a dividend any day now."

Agreed, the basic point is well taken, though I do think JayMan overstates it a bit, yet is much closer to the truth than the Hippy-Dippy Liberal.

@wrf

"So, if choices are the result of the firing of neurons in your brain, and you don't control the firing of the neurons, then what is the basis for the claim that your will is free?"

Ignoring the lack of a good definition for “Free Will” here, saying that the choices made in the consciousness are the “result of neurons firing” is a gross oversimplification.

Even if we use a modern personal computer as an example: saying a change in the output of an operating system application is the “result of transistors switching” is a grossly inadequate over-simplication…and the relationship of the immaterial consciousness to the physical substrate of the central nervous system is many orders of magnitude more complex than that.

The neuron – transistor analogy is (loved by neuroscience undergrad/refugees from Biology class because it is simple ) outdated in light of more recent evidence suggesting that the brain functions as an organic quantum computer able to maintain large scale coherence at body temperature.

Blogger wrf3 January 08, 2015 11:28 AM  

Darth Toolpodicus wrote: Ignoring the lack of a good definition for “Free Will” here...

Feel free to provide one. I won't quibble, unless you claim that humans have something that computers don't (other than greater complexity).

that the choices made in the consciousness are the “result of neurons firing” is a gross oversimplification.

You can claim this. But tell me, exactly, what important information is lost by this simplification?

Even if we use a modern personal computer as an example: saying a change in the output of an operating system application is the “result of transistors switching” is a grossly inadequate over-simplication...

Sorry, but since I'm a computer engineer, you can't BS me. Of course there's some complex engineering associated with a computer but it's just transistors arranged certain ways. Everything else can be safely ignored in understanding the fundamental concepts of computing.

an organic quantum computer able to maintain large scale coherence at body temperature

More technobabble. You can't maintain quantum coherence at body temperature. But, even if you could, there isn't anything a quantum computer can do that a classical computer can't (ignoring the extreme parallelism that can be obtained via some quantum algorithms).

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