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Wednesday, January 14, 2015

The tipping point

It appears Netanyahu should have addressed the Jews of Britain, as well as the Jews of France:
More than half of British Jewish people fear Jews have no future in the UK, according to a new study which also reveals that antisemitic sentiments are more prevalent than widely believed. British society is at a “tipping point” with Jewish families increasingly questioning whether to stay in the country, campaigners claim today.

The warning is bolstered by a new YouGov poll showing that 45 per cent of Britons agreed with at least one of four antisemitic statements put to them. Some 25 per cent agreed with the idea that “Jews chase money more than other British people” while one in five accepted as true that “Jews’ loyalty to Israel makes them less loyal to Britain than other British people”. A further 13 per cent said of those surveyed in the poll commissioned by the Campaign Against Antisemitism (CAA) agreed that “Jews talk about the Holocaust too much in order to get sympathy”.
It seems rather obvious that they don't have any long-term future in the UK. Great Britain is no more the proper home of the Jewish people any more than France, the USA, or China. The diaspora is over and it is absolutely absurd to say that France and Britain and the USA are all part and parcel of a vast globe-spanning home for less than 15 million people.

I tend to think the 45 percent figure cited is far too low. I cannot imagine that four out of five British people genuinely believe that any Jew, particularly one with an Israeli passport, is as loyal to Great Britain as an actual Brit is, unless by "other British people" they were thinking of the mainstream political elite. I daresay most Jews in Britain not named "Milliband" are considerably more loyal to Great Britain than David Cameron or Nick Clegg. But it's a stupid characterization anyway, as it's not "anti-semitic" to believe a Jew is primarily loyal to Israel. I should think it's downright anti-semitic to insist otherwise. Every American living in London I know would be downright offended at the idea that he might be more loyal to the Queen of England than to the Stars and Stripes.

Hell, it's hard for most of them to go more than a week without reminding an unsuspecting Englishman that "we kicked your ass in 1776 and if it weren't for us, you'd be speaking German." On the other hand, some of my English friends do still insist on referring to the US as "the Colonies".

What I think most people fail to understand is that nationalism is not rooted in hate, but in love. It is love for one's own people, one's own kind. The artificial substitution of "country", as in the sense of "geographical place with a government" for "nation" in the sense of "genetically kindred people", has confused the issue for a long time.

Nationalism is why "Sweet Home Alabama" strikes a deep chord in everyone who hears it, even if they have never been in the United States and couldn't find Alabama on a map. It's a love song by a southern man to his own people, and even if we don't share that particular love, we understand it, we recognize it. And anyhow, Southern Man need not hate Neil Young to know he doesn't need Neil Young around.

Citizenship is ersatz nationalism. It is false, it is fake. Unless you understand the difference between citizenship and nationalism, you will not be able to make much sense of the events of the coming decades.

Labels:

151 Comments:

Anonymous Stingray January 14, 2015 10:49 AM  

What I think most people fail to understand is that nationalism is not rooted in hate, but in love.

This is beautiful.

It also shows the stark difference between nationalists and the Left. The Left know only Hate. They can't comprehend that we do not.

Anonymous Bah January 14, 2015 11:01 AM  

Any general statement about any group of people, no matter how true or observable on a daily basis, can only reflect hate for that group.

Believing that Jews are a group about which some general statements can be made = obvious anti-Semitism!

/sarc

Blogger Nate January 14, 2015 11:06 AM  

" And anyhow, Southern Man need not hate Neil Young to know he doesn't need Neil Young around"

I chuckled. I admit it.

Anonymous Mike M. January 14, 2015 11:07 AM  

Another point worth considering - Nationalism does not imply a hatred or lack of respect for other nations. A man can be utterly devoted to his nation and still like others. And quite often does, as I think strong patriotic sentiments engender a love for similar nations that may be less strong, but is love nevertheless.

But a man who hates his own country, and can find no other?...he is incapable of love. Neither of nation nor family.

Anonymous Obvious Question January 14, 2015 11:10 AM  

How many of those polled were "English" in name only? Not just Muslims, but Desi's, West Indians, Africans, etc.?

Anonymous Asking January 14, 2015 11:13 AM  

I'm curious about how far this thinking extends. I'm an American Reform Jew -- largely secular, but still, I'm Jewish. My parents were born here, and two of my grandparents. I feel as American as it is possible to feel. But is it your contention that because of my ancestry, I should take my family and move to Israel?

Blogger Joshua Dyal January 14, 2015 11:21 AM  

The questions that were asked to determine "anti-Semitism" were silly; or at least the examples used in the article were. So, saying that Jews talk about the Holocaust too much in an attempt to gin up sympathy is anti-Semite? What?

Anonymous Rabbi B January 14, 2015 11:23 AM  

"But is it your contention that because of my ancestry, I should take my family and move to Israel?"

It will be in your long-term best interests. Identifying as an "American Reform Jew" will not serve to spare you from what's coming. Time to go home Jew-boy.

Blogger jimmy-jimbo January 14, 2015 11:26 AM  

Its hard to say if anyone cares about the Jews. I cared about genocide, which does sympathize Jews, but it is clearly overdone. Since when did Jews care about other genocides? I am most distressed that Jews are not in agreement with Christians. It is as if they hate Christians especially the Jews in Hollywood. So they are intent on losing Christian support? It sure seems that way.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis January 14, 2015 11:28 AM  

I feel as American as it is possible to feel. But is it your contention that because of my ancestry, I should take my family and move to Israel?

I cant speak for Vox but I guess a good question to ask would be would you march against Israel if there were war? I want to make it clear that I'm not implying there will or should be, it's just a question of loyalty. A plurality of my heritage is Irish, yet if America and Ireland were ever to come to war I wouldn't hesitate to side with my country which is America. The same thing was witnessed during WWI and WWII when Americans of German descent sided with America over Germany.

I personally don't think that you being Jewish or whatever necessarily excludes you from being American. At the same time I don't consider Americans with dual citizenship as real Americans and I find myself nodding my head when I read a passage from Theodore Roosevelt concerning hyphenated Americans. Citizenship maybe ersatz nationalism but an unwillingness to pick just one is a good indication that you have no real affinity to your nation.

Anonymous Alexander January 14, 2015 11:29 AM  

And *this right here* is why the Jews have the worst PR in the world.

All they have done here is:

1. Accused people of being evil for accepting a stereotype or, in the case of the suspected loyalites, taking a very logical and reasonable position.
2. Played into "The Jews control the media!" Nobody's writing articles about how mean it is that Europeans think Americans are a bunch of fatasses or that American expats annoy them about World War II.

I never feel so anti-semitic as I do when I'm reading an article in the western press about how hard done by the Jews are in the western world.

Blogger Viisaus January 14, 2015 11:35 AM  

"Citizenship is ersatz nationalism. It is false, it is fake."

It was pagan Romans who really created the citizenship ideology. That is, they created the most compelling non-ethnic state system seen in history. And I believe that is why Biblical prophecies draw a clear connection between Babel and Rome (like the Book of Revelations). The Roman empire was inspired by the Tower of Babel-spirit.

It seems - and this is a little known but important fact - that modern egalitarian ideology largely derives from the imperial Roman jurisprudence; the Roman Civil Law was one major pagan legacy that the Christian Middle Ages did not fully abolish, and it renders all its citizens or subjects equal under the law, or equal in servitude to the allmighty state, the Hobbesian Leviathan, a god on earth.

Hear what Thomas Huxley, "Darwin's Bulldog", writes:

http://aleph0.clarku.edu/huxley/CE1/NatIneq.html

"3 Sir H. Maine observes that the "strictly juridical axiom" of the lawyers of the Antonine era ("omnes homines naturâ æquales sunt"), after passing through the hands of Rousseau and being adopted by the founders of the Constitution of United States, returned to France endowed with vastly greater energy and dignity, and that "of all 'the principles of 1789' it is the one which has been least strenuously assailed, which has most thoroughly leavened modern opinion, and which promises to modify most deeply the constitution of societies, and the politics of States" (Ancient Law, p. 96)."

Blogger Krul January 14, 2015 11:35 AM  

Re: Nationalism,

That reminds me. Libertarians of the Caplan variety have been criticized for failing to appreciate the importance of things like culture, religion and race, which is why this paragraph from an essay by Murray Rothbard stood out to me:

The “nation,” of course, is not the same thing as the state, a difference that earlier libertarians and classical liberals such as Ludwig von Mises and Albert Jay Nock understood full well. Contemporary libertarians often assume, mistakenly, that individuals are bound to each other only by the nexus of market exchange. They forget that everyone is necessarily born into a family, a language, and a culture. Every person is born into one or several overlapping communities, usually including an ethnic group, with specific values, cultures, religious beliefs, and traditions.
-"Nations by Constent: Decomposing the Nation-State" by Rothbard

It would be wrong, I think, to assume that libertarianism is neccessarily contrary to nationalism, as doing so would be to conflate the "nation" with the "state".

Anonymous Quartermaster January 14, 2015 11:35 AM  

"I never feel so anti-semitic as I do when I'm reading an article in the western press about how hard done by the Jews are in the western world."

Yep! When you have idiots like Foxman and little Chucky Shumer standing against everything that made the US great, it's equally hard. David Irving tells them they need to ask the question "why me" instead of whining about how they are treated.

OTOH, not every Jew is like the hateful leftist version. They get caught by the rest though.

Anonymous zapbrannigan1 January 14, 2015 11:40 AM  

Vox: "Hell, it's hard for most of them to go more than a week without reminding an unsuspecting Englishman that 'we kicked your ass in 1776 and if it weren't for us, you'd be speaking German.'"

Please tell me that you are kidding about this. Love of one's country is all well and good, but that's just boorish and embarrassing.

Blogger Viisaus January 14, 2015 11:43 AM  

Hardcore statism is quite inseparable from egalitarianism. Already in some inscriptions of the earliest (and very heavy-handed) rulers of the earth - like Sumerian kings - there are formulaic panegyric mentions about how the all-powerful king "prevents the strong from oppressing the weak."

The idea is that one mighty ruler will prevent all the small-time rulers from being overly harsh on their own subjects. Like in the Christian idea that "all men are equal before God" (puny human differences amount to nothing in the presence of Allmighty), so likewise before an all-powerful earthly king, all his subjects are "equal" - equally lowly.

Leon Trotsky bragged in his 1922 booklet, that was intended to defend the Soviet conquest of Georgia, of how the Bolsheviks alone had managed to calm down the Caucasian snakepit of ethnic and religious hatreds:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1922/red-white/ch09.htm

"This fact alone settles the question: for if democracy was as incapable as Tsarism of creating conditions for a peaceful cohabitation of the Trans-Caucasian peoples, it was evidently imperative to adopt other methods.

The Soviet power alone has established peace and national intercourse between them. At the elections to the Soviets, the Baku and Tbilisi workers elect a Tartar, an Armenian, or a Georgian, irrespective of their nationality. In Trans-Caucasia, the Moslem, Armenian, Georgian, and Russian Red regiments live side by side."

The lesson we can learn from this stuff is that only iron-handed governments can keep "vibrantly diverse" empires together. Multiculturalism means the end of freedom.


Blogger Brad Andrews January 14, 2015 11:46 AM  

The problem with being willing to march against anyone is that the modern political leadership is not focused solely on protecting the country. I can see no reason a US citizen would need to march on Israel. It might happen, but I can't think of a valid case.

I would not participate if it came up as I find that at too much odds with my Christian beliefs, but it should never be an issue as it should not happen if we were limited to our Constitutional responsibilities.

The same would be true of Ireland I suspect, and many other places.

This sounds like the question "would you beat up your own mother." Kind of stupid for most of us.

That does not mean we should be defending Israel either. Let Israel and their God do that. The only admonition I see is to pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

Anonymous PA January 14, 2015 11:47 AM  

"What I think most people fail to understand is that nationalism is not rooted in hate, but in love."

To love something is to value it highly. Hate is what we feel toward those who would harm that, which we love.

Without hate, love is impotent. Without love, hate is self-devouring.

Anonymous Scipio africanus January 14, 2015 11:47 AM  

Asking,

IMO a small minority of your people agitated very strongly for changes in the US immigration policies that have lead to the current multi-ethnic political organization known as the USA. Like all multi-ethnic empires, the USA will one day break apart. The fault lines are becomming increasingly evident, It may be peaceful, it may be violent. It may not go well for you and yours when people start asking "how die we get to this?" Especially if you consider the actions of nationally prominent jewish individuals/organizations in promoting immigration.

Blogger Viisaus January 14, 2015 11:48 AM  

In Stanley Kubrick's Vietnam movie Full Metal Jacket, Sgt. Hartman expressed the "equality in servitude"-ideology in a concise nutshell:

"I am hard but I am fair. There is no racial bigotry here. I do not look down on niggers, kikes, wops or greasers. Here you are all equally worthless."

This is also pretty much what that often-touted Islamic sense of equality really amounts to - since all humans are fundamentally worthless or expendable (they are all slaves of Allah), no true Muslim aristocracy can exist.

But many ressentiment-filled people feel attraction to this sort of worldview that materialistic Communists also share - they are ready to relinquish their own human dignity if they are only able to pull more successful or exalted characters down to their own low level, which attitude is the essence of suicidal envy-ideology.

Anonymous PA January 14, 2015 11:49 AM  

"if it weren't for us, you'd be speaking German"

And instead, thanks to us your daughters are whoring for Pakis.

Blogger Nate January 14, 2015 11:56 AM  

say Vox...

do you love Minnesota?

Anonymous VD January 14, 2015 11:58 AM  

I'm an American Reform Jew -- largely secular, but still, I'm Jewish. My parents were born here, and two of my grandparents. I feel as American as it is possible to feel. But is it your contention that because of my ancestry, I should take my family and move to Israel?

If I were in your shoes, I would ask myself this question: if the USA were to go to war with Israel, for whom would I fight? And if the answer were Israel, I would begin making plans to move there because you do not genuinely "feel as American as it is possible to feel". Would you nuke Israel as readily as your American forebears nuked Japan?

And if the answer were the USA, then I would abandon my self-identity as Jewish and become wholly American, sans the hyphen. I would also begin studying Christianity and choosing a church, in order to better understand the nuances of the culture I knew I was missing.

The thing is, you can't pretend it is your religious identity if you're "largely secular". If you're part of the Jewish nation, then you're not part of the American nation. Italian-Americans aren't Italians any more than Irish-Americans or German-Americans are Irish and German anymore. The same is true for Americans of Jewish descent.

After all, a famous Jew once said: "A man cannot serve two masters". You need to decide who you are, because you're not both fish and fowl.

Anonymous PopeSicle January 14, 2015 12:00 PM  

As a Roman Catholic, it's been an interesting mental exercise to substitute "Catholic" for "Jew" or "Jewish". Sometimes it does depend on who's ox is being gored. Still, there is a little wiggle room. At 109 acres, our homeland won't hold all of us, and it's geopolitical insignificance should prevent it from having much impact on the international stage.

Blogger Josh January 14, 2015 12:00 PM  

say Vox...

do you love Minnesota?


That's not very nice

Anonymous zen0 January 14, 2015 12:00 PM  

Identifying as an "American Reform Jew" will not serve to spare you from what's coming.

Indeed. American Reform Jews, secular or no, are the vanguard of the despicable SJWs, i.e., the secular jihadis.

Anonymous bw January 14, 2015 12:00 PM  

any Jew, particularly one with an Israeli passport

Like the former head of the US Dept of HS? Or Rahm fighting specifically for Israel in Gulf War I?

some of my English friends do still insist on referring to the US as "the Colonies"

There is a great deal of evidence that this is an apt description.

he doesn't need Neil Young around

Canadian Neil Young, at that.

OpenID cailcorishev January 14, 2015 12:01 PM  

I'm an American Reform Jew -- largely secular, but still, I'm Jewish. My parents were born here, and two of my grandparents. I feel as American as it is possible to feel. But is it your contention that because of my ancestry, I should take my family and move to Israel?

If the people who have allegiances to a foreign power leave, I don't think it would be necessary to drive out the kind of people you describe. However, if the former don't leave gracefully, it's easy to see things deteriorating to the point where you get lumped in with them.

I don't personally think it should be necessary to evict every Jew. Heck, I don't think it should be necessary to evict every Muslim. Get rid of the most obnoxious 90%, and then see how it looks. It just doesn't seem like that's an option -- partly because the 90% will try to hide behind the 10%, and end up taking them with them.

Blogger Owen January 14, 2015 12:01 PM  

Did they ask Brit Jews the same five questions? If so, were they more "anti-Semitic?"

Anonymous VD January 14, 2015 12:03 PM  

do you love Minnesota?

Good question. I can't honestly say that I do. There are things I love about it. And I like Minnesota, but even though I grew up there, I was never truly of there in the way that my best friend was. We moved there before I started school, so if we split the time for being away at college, I was there for about 21 years total. It's strange to think that I've been over here for nearly that long.

Blogger Owen January 14, 2015 12:04 PM  

Four questions/statement, not five.

Blogger Josh January 14, 2015 12:05 PM  

If I were in your shoes, I would ask myself this question: if the USA were to go to war with Israel, for whom would I fight? And if the answer were Israel, I would begin making plans to move there because you do not genuinely "feel as American as it is possible to feel".

There is a sizeable chunk of the American evangelical population (Hagee, Falwell, Graham, etc) who would also answer "Israel" when asked that question. However, they're not Jewish and have no right of return.

What's to be done with them?

Blogger Owen January 14, 2015 12:07 PM  

There is a sizeable chunk of the American evangelical population (Hagee, Falwell, Graham, etc) who would also answer "Israel" when asked that question. However, they're not Jewish and have no right of return.

It's like watching Wallenda attempting to cross the Grand Canyon by leaping, rather than tightrope.

Anonymous Feh January 14, 2015 12:07 PM  

"I never feel so anti-semitic as I do when I'm reading an article in the western press about how hard done by the Jews are in the western world."

The press knows that if they don't portray the Juice as weak, helpless, and vulnerable, then the Juice will mobilize their mighty political and economic power to punish or destroy the offender.

Anonymous Dan in Tx January 14, 2015 12:08 PM  

Just once, I'd like to see one of these studies on anti-semitism ask the question: "Why do people have these negative feelings against Jews?". Of course, we know there can't be any real reason, it's just a completely irrational disease that pops up in the population for no reason at all.

Blogger Owen January 14, 2015 12:10 PM  

Just once, I'd like to see one of these studies on anti-semitism ask the question: "Why do people have these negative feelings against Jews?". Of course, we know there can't be any real reason, it's just a completely irrational disease that pops up in the population for no reason at all.

That's why I think a self-survey of the Jewish population would undercut the idea that the beliefs are "anti-semitic."

It's like asking Americans of traditionally Irish descent if their families drink a lot. They'd say, "Hell, yes." Ask non-Irish and they're told they're just feeding a stereotype.

Anonymous Feh January 14, 2015 12:14 PM  

Vox: "Hell, it's hard for most of them to go more than a week without reminding an unsuspecting Englishman that 'we kicked your ass in 1776 and if it weren't for us, you'd be speaking German.'"

Please tell me that you are kidding about this. Love of one's country is all well and good, but that's just boorish and embarrassing.


As a frequent visitor to the UK, I'll tell you that this "boorish" talk most likely was in response to a lengthy limey sneer about America and its shortcomings, along these lines: "You're all fat, stupid, warmongering, materialistic, Bible-thumping yokels, your President is a moron (if a Republican is in office), your health care system is immoral, blah blah blah."

It's enough to make one go Kevin Kline from a Fish Called Wanda:

Oh, you English are so superior, aren't you?

Would you like to know where you'd be without us, the US of A, to protect you?

I'll tell you. The smallest fucking province in the Russian Empire, that's what! If it wasn't for us, you'd all be speaking German!

(sing)

Deutschland, Deutschland über alles!

Anonymous Feh January 14, 2015 12:16 PM  

I guess a good question to ask would be would you march against Israel if there were war?

Also:

Who do you cheer for in the Olympics / World Cup?

Anonymous karsten January 14, 2015 12:21 PM  

"There is a sizeable chunk of the American evangelical population (Hagee, Falwell, Graham, etc) who would also answer "Israel" when asked that question. However, they're not Jewish and have no right of return.

What's to be done with them?"


Those that have spread this propaganda are traitors, so they should be dealt with as fifth-columnist traitors of any sort.

OTOH, those who have been infected by this propaganda need to be deprogrammed. That simple.

Remove kosher influence from the media and instil traditionalism as the media's dominant world-view, and the evangelicals will soon lose their Zionist "mind-forg'd manacles." After all, the whole grotesque phenomenon of mass Zionist beliefs among whites is quite recent. There was always a stratum of it, but it was never as significant as it became once the Chosen consolidated media power.

OpenID cailcorishev January 14, 2015 12:23 PM  

When the Spartans conquered Plataea, they asked each man one question: During the war, what did you do to help Sparta? The Plataeans were trying to lean on old friendships with Sparta from the time of the Persian War, but they had sided with Athens during the current war. So the Spartans were saying, look, if we're such buddies from way back, what have you done for us lately? Why were you throwing rocks down from the walls just now instead of revolting from inside?

Jews and members of other groups who are happy in their host countries and fear persecution might want to ask themselves, "What have I done for America/France/wherever lately? How do I react to news stories about people of my ethnic/religious group bad-mouthing my country? Is there anything I can point to -- the flag hanging from my porch, the things I say or write, the holidays I celebrate, etc. -- that indicates that I love this country and my loyalties are not with another? If yes, great; but if not, why not?"

Again, I hope people aren't dragged before a bench and required to provide proof of their love of country. But it could be a useful thought experiment for individuals to do themselves, because people who love their country generally show it, and don't show love for other countries beyond a certain amount of nostalgia. People with greater loyalty elsewhere tend to stick out.

And if it would bother you to fly an American flag on the front of your house to signal your loyalty, you might have answered your own question.

Anonymous FP January 14, 2015 12:26 PM  

"Nationalism is why "Sweet Home Alabama" strikes a deep chord in everyone who hears it, even if they have never been in the United States and couldn't find Alabama on a map."

And the Chicago version doesn't? ;)


Country Roads. Take me home, West Virginia.

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 14, 2015 12:33 PM  

Who do you cheer for in the Olympics / World Cup?

As someone with both American and Israeli citizenship (I grew up in the US but moved to Israel), I can say, "it depends." It might not not seem logical, but I consider the point of whose fans deserve the victory.

Here's what I mean. In the World Baseball Classic, I support the US because Israelis don't care about baseball and the US would appreciate it more. In the World Cup, I support Israel because Americans don't care about football and Israel would appreciate it more.

Blogger Owen January 14, 2015 12:34 PM  

Get out.

Blogger Chris Mallory January 14, 2015 12:34 PM  

"My parents were born here, and two of my grandparents. I feel as American as it is possible to feel. But is it your contention that because of my ancestry, I should take my family and move to Israel?"

Yes, you are not an American.

Blogger JaimeInTexas January 14, 2015 12:37 PM  

In a conflict between these uSA and Israel, who do side with?

Anonymous dB January 14, 2015 12:40 PM  

"There is a sizeable chunk of the American evangelical population (Hagee, Falwell, Graham, etc) who would also answer "Israel" when asked that question. However, they're not Jewish and have no right of return.

What's to be done with them?"

Hold on a second here. This is going OT but you are referring to individuals who see Israel as part of the end times. If Israel is not there then that ruins their worldview. Never mind that Jesus said don't bother trying to predict when things will go down. But what do you do with the evangelical dudes? You ignore them but my guess is they side with America if you try to take their $hit.

Anonymous VD January 14, 2015 12:42 PM  

In the World Baseball Classic, I support the US because Israelis don't care about baseball and the US would appreciate it more. In the World Cup, I support Israel because Americans don't care about football and Israel would appreciate it more.

And then, Israel last qualified for the World Cup in 1970, so given they're in UEFA and the USA is in CONCACAF, so the question is almost entirely moot.

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 14, 2015 12:57 PM  

And then, Israel last qualified for the World Cup in 1970, so given they're in UEFA and the USA is in CONCACAF, so the question is almost entirely moot.

Right, the example is a bit hypothetical just to demonstrate the overall idea.

Once Israel is knocked out of World Cup contention (don't get me started on the last one), then I support the US. If the US is knocked out, then I usually go for England (since I lived there once). Then, if England is knocked out, I go for the Netherlands because they helped the Jews in WWII. I've got a whole hierarchy.

But just remember: In baseball, I go for the US in general and the Red Sox specifically.

Anonymous jay c January 14, 2015 12:58 PM  

I agree with all three of those statements, and I certainly don't consider myself antisemitic.

Anonymous M'bala M'bala January 14, 2015 12:58 PM  

Which do you choose in the same scenario, Vox, Italy or the U.S.A?

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 14, 2015 12:59 PM  

In a conflict between these uSA and Israel, who do side with?.

In hypothetical conversations with friends of mine who are both Israeli and American citizens, here's what people often say: "Whoever's morally in the right."

Blogger Laramie Hirsch January 14, 2015 1:00 PM  

"Unless you understand the difference between citizenship and nationalism, you will not be able to make much sense of the events of the coming decades."

There are oodles of people who can't make sense of TODAY'S events, let alone tomorrow's. This fact frustrates me greatly.

Anonymous Tawmmy from Quinzee January 14, 2015 1:00 PM  

But just remember: In baseball, I go for the US in general and the Red Sox specifically.

YOU JEWBAGS AH NAWT GRITTY ENOUGH TO DESURVE MEMBAHSHIP IN OWAH GLORIOUS RED SAWX NATION!

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 14, 2015 1:02 PM  

YOU JEWBAGS AH NAWT GRITTY ENOUGH TO DESURVE MEMBAHSHIP IN OWAH GLORIOUS RED SAWX NATION!

Okay, that was funny!

Anonymous VD January 14, 2015 1:02 PM  

Which do you choose in the same scenario, Vox, Italy or the U.S.A?

Gli Azzurri. Senz'altro. My kids worked it out once. I think Team USA was number four or five on their list.

Anonymous Don January 14, 2015 1:04 PM  

Feh - Most Americans don't know what the hell the world cup is.

Anonymous VD January 14, 2015 1:04 PM  

In hypothetical conversations with friends of mine who are both Israeli and American citizens, here's what people often say: "Whoever's morally in the right."

That means they're Israeli. That is not an even remotely American answer, which is "my country right or wrong".

Anonymous Anubis January 14, 2015 1:10 PM  

"Heck, I don't think it should be necessary to evict every Muslim."
Vlad "the impaler" Tepes didn't evict every muslim, in fact he elevated them above his own people. We are transitioning from a situation that a BlackJack Pershing could fix to one that needs a Vlad Tepes.

"Hell, it's hard for most of them to go more than a week without reminding an unsuspecting Englishman that 'we kicked your ass in 1776 and if it weren't for us, you'd be speaking German.'" and there wouldn't be black/brown crime in your cities with 3rd worlders gang raping 1400 little white girls in one town with cops looking the other way.

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 14, 2015 1:13 PM  

Vox, I must vehemently disagree:

That means they're Israeli. That is not an even remotely American answer, which is "my country right or wrong".

Didn't you (and many here) oppose the 2003 invasion of Iraq? (I did.) Countries can wage war for wrong reasons, and their people should not accused of doing something wrong when they don't support such wars.

(Note: Such opposition is not the same as supporting, say, the Iraqi army in this example.)

Anonymous Alexander January 14, 2015 1:16 PM  

What about when my country is hijacked?

I have no doubt that if Argentina and the UK went to war over the Falklands, there are many - Obama included - who would try to make us at the very least pro-Argentina. But let's imagine a hypothetical where it went to war.

"My country right or wrong" is fine if we're all one people, and maybe we are right to go, maybe we aren't, but we support our own. And we are *ruled* by our own.

"My country right or wrong" isn't supposed to mean when our elites, increasingly different from me and mine in ethnicity, culture, values, religion, heritage, etc. etc. are expecting us to fight other Anglo-Saxons to pacify an increasingly Atzlan electorate.

Not that I think this example pertains to the Jews - this is clearly not a Jewish land that was hijacked by foreigners. But I'm curious as to the response. And given how are progressives in the USA are likely to react to Europe until they too are toppled, it's quite pertinent:

Ought White, Christian Americans support the United States when our government is actively hostile towards Europeans expelling their muslims? Does "my country right or wrong" apply?

Blogger Joshua_D January 14, 2015 1:16 PM  

Speaking of dual citizenship, I decided to do a quick search for members of Congress who hold dual citizenship. Surprisingly, there isn't a really easy way to figure that out. I found several posts, most of which deal with dual US-Israeli citizenship (surprise).

This link is to an article that seems to be from 2012, but still, that's a lot of Congress to hold dual allegiance to Israel, assuming the list is accurate.

http://educate-yourself.org/cn/dualcitizensobamaadmin23aug12.shtml

Blogger Joshua_D January 14, 2015 1:19 PM  

Samuel Scott, don't you live in Israel? In a conflict between these USA and Israel, who do you side with?

Blogger Chris Mallory January 14, 2015 1:21 PM  

"What about when my country is hijacked?"

My country and the government are not the same things. We have been under a hostile occupation government since 1865.

Anonymous Feh January 14, 2015 1:25 PM  

Once Israel is knocked out of World Cup contention (don't get me started on the last one), then I support the US. If the US is knocked out, then I usually go for England (since I lived there once). Then, if England is knocked out, I go for the Netherlands because they helped the Jews in WWII.

If not the USA, then DEUTSCHLAND all the way, baby!

Even though the krauts shot at my relatives in WW2.

Anonymous Alexander January 14, 2015 1:27 PM  

Excellent. Then we are in agreement.

But it does point out why much of this, however well meaning, will be fruitless. "In such a war, I of course support America... but America is controlled by BAD MEN, and as such it is in America's interest to lose the war against [conveniently, my people]."

Ultimately, what's going to determine if any one of us belongs is going to be if our neighbors agree we do. Fairness won't factor into it, because all the 'fair' methods will have been exhausted or corrupted or denied by the time it comes down to making the calls.

Blogger Joshua Dyal January 14, 2015 1:27 PM  

Feh - Most Americans don't know what the hell the world cup is.

After all of the efforts the SJWs in the media made to make sure that we felt bad because we're not with the program and doing the same thing everybody else (allegedly) in the world does, I doubt that's been true for years.

Funny how life to an SJW never seems to move beyond elementary school level maturity, right?

In any case, while I generally would love to see the US win the World Cup, I don't consider it very likely, so I don't get very bent when they get knocked out, and then go back to rooting for Argentina, mostly because I at least lived there for a little while. Who you cheer for in the Olympics and World Cup isn't really that great of a litmus test of your nationalism.

And occasionally, I pine for the days when the Republic of Texas was an independent, sovereign state, and could tell the rest of the US to get bent if they felt like it. As the fault lines within the US start to become more visible, my concept of nationalism gradually becomes more localized, and I wonder if I really qualify as an "American" anymore. Using Woodward's 11 nations I'd say I have a mixed heritage, cultural upbringing and natural tendency towards the Far West and Greater Appalachia, and I could happily accept nationhood into either of those two. And conversely, I'm more hostile towards the Left Coast and Yankeedom than I am towards citizens of genuinely different state entities.

Blogger richard mcenroe January 14, 2015 1:32 PM  

To be fair, the Brits did America one signal service when they burned down Washington DC in the war of 1812.

Regrettably, when I met a couple of squaddies on leave while I was participating in a counter-protest of the local progs a couple of years ago, they declined my polite invitation to round up a few friends and stage a repeat performance.

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 14, 2015 1:32 PM  

Samuel Scott, don't you live in Israel? In a conflict between these USA and Israel, who do you side with?

If the USA invades Israel tomorrow with the intent of wiping the country out? I'd support Israel because it'd be the moral thing to do -- the US (and no other country) would have no moral right to do such a thing. And I'd say that I'd support the US if the situation were reversed and Israel tried to do something similar.

But the whole question is moot -- such a conflict would never arise, at least for the foreseeable future. Neither country would ever try to do such a thing.

Blogger richard mcenroe January 14, 2015 1:34 PM  

World Cup... that's that game where you run around as a ball rolls past you and then fall on the ground pretending to be hurt, right?

Blogger wrf3 January 14, 2015 1:34 PM  

I am a Reformed Christian living in America. My allegiance is to a certain Monarch, who has given the entire earth to His people. In Him there is neither Jew not Gentile and, unlike in the Kubrick movie, we are not all equally worthless, as our Monarch gave His life for each of us.

So, any particular advice on where to live? How can I possibly support a quaint antiquated view of the world, since my kinsmen are in every corner of it?

Blogger richard mcenroe January 14, 2015 1:36 PM  

"That means they're Israeli. That is not an even remotely American answer, which is "my country right or wrong"."

Just once I'd like to see someone use that full quote, which gives it context and its correct meaning:

"My country. May she always be right, but my country, right or wrong."

Anonymous Alexander January 14, 2015 1:39 PM  

Live wherever you like, wrf3. Just keep in mind that if you exhibit no particular loyalty to your neighbors, don't get bent when they exhibit no particular loyalty to you.

Anonymous jay c January 14, 2015 1:42 PM  

"Whose side would you be on in a war between the USA & Israel" is a tough one for many Americans, Jewish & Christian alike. I've settled the question for myself, but my answer is probably less than satisfying to anyone, including myself: I'm with Texas. But that just shifts the question to Texas vs Israel instead of really answering it.

I have no loyalty to the State of Israel, although I admit I kind of like Netanyahu. I have a stronger attachment to the People of Israel. I've never given the Texas vs Israel question much thought since I've always thought in terms of Texas vs USA or USA vs Israel. Here are my immediate thoughts:

1. In an all out war between Texas and the USA, there would be no room for neutrality. I would unhesitatingly side with Texas, barring some horribly immoral behavior engaged in and/or supported by a majority of Texans of the sort that is usually only engaged in by atheists and Muslims.
2. In a war between the USA and almost anyone else, I might protest the war, but I am an American and would fight as an American if necessary. If the war is just, so much the better.
3. In a war between Israel and almost anyone else, whether I approve or disapprove of the reasons for war, my sympathies will almost always lie with Israel. If it's a just war, I might support Israel in other ways, whether morally or materially, but I'm not going to put on an IDF uniform. I'm not in Israel. I'm not an Israeli. I'm not even Jewish.
4. In an all out war between the USA and Israel, I would favor the establishment of the new Republic of Texas. I love Israel, but I am an American. I would not fight with Israel against the USA--at least not before Jesus is personally on the throne in Jerusalem, and then I would be fighting for Him and not exactly for Israel--and will do whatever I can to keep the USA out of a war with Israel, even to the point of taking my Republic and going home.
5. The possibility of all out war between Texas and Israel may seem so remote as to be absurd, but it must be addressed if I'm to answer the original question honestly. I think the thought must be similar to what a child feels when asked to choose sides in his parent's divorce. Here is my answer: I would likely refuse to take up arms against Israel and would accept whatever punishment comes with that decision, but I remain a Texan and would not betray her. I would do whatever I can to support my local community and especially my own congregation without becoming actively engaged in hostilities.
6. I would take up arms against the USA, Texas, or Israel in defense of my congregation.

Blogger Retrenched January 14, 2015 1:44 PM  

"Your country ain't your blood - you remember that." Sonny Corleone

Blogger richard mcenroe January 14, 2015 1:45 PM  

"I'm an American Reform Jew -- " Ah, Episcopalian...

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis January 14, 2015 1:46 PM  

"My country right or wrong" isn't supposed to mean when our elites, increasingly different from me and mine in ethnicity, culture, values, religion, heritage, etc. etc. are expecting us to fight other Anglo-Saxons to pacify an increasingly Atzlan electorate.

To be frank, I don't really care about Anglo-Saxons, Celts, Germans, Franks or any of the other European countries where I can draw a lineage to. That isn't to say I don't sympathize with their struggles, or that we shouldn't stand with them when outside forces threaten our shared civilization but that is it. If we go to war, and it is for just reasons, then I will support my country. If it is for unjust reasons then I will voice my opposition, but I would never dream of aiding and abetting another nation against my own. I also don't think America has to be a "white" nation, I know I am in the minority opinion, but I do think it needs to maintain it's traditional culture. Those who choose not to assimilate, regardless of whether they are European, Atzlan or some other other, should not be allowed to stay.

It must also be pointed out that the elites are not our country now are they?

Anonymous patrick kelly January 14, 2015 1:46 PM  

"And if it would bother you to fly an American flag on the front of your house to signal your loyalty, you might have answered your own question."

I fly the Texas Lone Star....my nation, right or wrong !!

Anonymous jay c January 14, 2015 1:47 PM  

And that is the longest single comment I have made at VP in years.

Blogger richard mcenroe January 14, 2015 1:48 PM  

The Texas-Israeli War: http://tinyurl.com/kquocsq

Anonymous farmer Tom January 14, 2015 1:50 PM  

ASKING, asked a question about where he should live,

I didn't read everyone comments following that, don't have time,

But, I would say this,

What this country needs, regardless of race, creed, color or family ancestry are people with "The Habits of Liberty"

If you are Jewish or Christian, irreligious or pagan, unless you understand and believe in "The Habits of Liberty" you really ought to leave.

And what are "The Habits of Liberty"

see what De Tocqueville said about it here,

The Habits of Liberty

Anonymous jay c January 14, 2015 1:51 PM  

The Texas-Israeli War: http://tinyurl.com/kquocsq

That's funny!

Anonymous GreyS January 14, 2015 1:52 PM  

45 per cent of Britons agreed with at least one of four antisemitic statements put to them

That number is probably that large mostly because of leftist media, not because many English people have direct experience with the small number of Jews in England and are complaining about them. (Which is not to say the criticism of Jews is valid/not valid).

If the sentiment is largely a media creation for most folks and there is a backlash against muslims, the Jews could easily benefit and see a public opinion swing in their favor-- at least enough to hang in there. Seems to me there are a lot of young men in Britain who will go big on Nationalism against muslims over the next decade-- and many will go "Ultra" as they say in footy. And the muslims are idiot enough to do violence to innocents-- which takes the spotlight off of jews even more. If they go anywhere, Jews will go to the U.S. If it gets bad for them in Europe and GB, I'd guess we'd see some sort of fastrack refugee program for jews implemented.

Anonymous patrick kelly January 14, 2015 1:57 PM  

I'm not taking lessons in liberty from some Frenchie...their revolution was a barbaric, bloody mess based on their concepts of liberty, which smells more like communism to me........he seems to support unlimited suffrage and separation of church and state more akin the the modern ACLU version than what was commonly understood and implemented much earlier in US history....

"I would take up arms against the USA, Texas, or Israel in defense of my congregation."

Much to some of their protestations I might add.

Blogger Joshua Dyal January 14, 2015 1:57 PM  

The two largest Jewish populations are already Israel and the US. I think Jews in Britain are fine. And again; I reiterate that the so-called "anti-semitic" statements hardly are actually anti-semitic. If Jews are seriously thinking about leaving Britain because 13%, or whatever number it was, of Britons think that they bring up the Holocaust too often in an attempt to gin up sympathy, then nobody's going to miss them.

Anonymous Giuseppe January 14, 2015 1:59 PM  

Vox,
Excellent post.
A question, like me, you seem a somewhat displaced and odd one out. How do you see yourself in these terms? Who are "your" people?
I tend to take it to be those who hold similar values and frames of mind to me in some fundamentals (but not all), and it used to be blood family, but no more, and though I would not speculate to know, I assume that too may apply in your case to some extent.

Anonymous Feh January 14, 2015 2:03 PM  

"Your country ain't your blood - you remember that." Sonny Corleone

That's amoral familism in a nutshell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moral_Basis_of_a_Backward_Society

Edward C. Banfield, a political scientist who visited Montegrano, Italy (Montegrano is the fictitious name used by Banfield to protect the original town of Chiaromonte, in the Southern Italian region of Basilicata) in 1955. He observed a self-interested, family centric society which sacrificed the public good for the sake of nepotism and the immediate family. Banfield as an American was witnessing what was to become infamous as the "mafia" or families (in Sicily and other parts of Southern Italy) that cared only for its own "members" at the expense of their fellow citizens. Banfield postulated that the backwardness of such a society could be explained ‘largely but not entirely’ by ‘the inability of the villagers to act together for their common good or, indeed, for any end transcending the immediate, material interest of the nuclear family’.

Blogger Nate January 14, 2015 2:18 PM  

"Good question. I can't honestly say that I do. There are things I love about it. And I like Minnesota, but even though I grew up there, I was never truly of there in the way that my best friend was. We moved there before I started school, so if we split the time for being away at college, I was there for about 21 years total. It's strange to think that I've been over here for nearly that long."

interesting. I was raised in Kentucky... and while I do have affection for it... I do not love it the way I love tennessee and alabama.

Blogger Nate January 14, 2015 2:19 PM  

"That's amoral familism in a nutshell."

horseshit.

Nothing amoral about it.

Anonymous Feh January 14, 2015 2:29 PM  

It is amoral, you imbecile, because standards of right and wrong are not applied to family members. By definition, a member of the family is always in the right and must always be supported.

Anonymous The Jew Who Knew January 14, 2015 2:33 PM  

"as it's not "anti-semitic" to believe a Jew is primarily loyal to Israel."

No. But it's just a belief that can't be confirmed with any certainty without talking to the individual Jew.


"Every American living in London I know would be downright offended at the idea that he might be more loyal to the Queen of England than to the Stars and Stripes."

Then why is it not offensive to believe the American living in America, who is Jewish rather than Christian, is more loyal to another country?

It's all very nonsensical

Why, for example, is it proper to believe a person born in the United States to American born parents would have greater loyalty to Israel?

Why is it proper to believe that a person born in America to Jewish parents who's grand parents came to America from Germany ought to have more loyalty to Israel than to Germany?

Anonymous Atombum January 14, 2015 2:36 PM  

@Josh 12:05 pm: ``What`s to be done with them?`` One day while trying to explain the Hebrew prepositions `ad and `le in their relationship to `olam (Strongs #5769, translated ever,perpetual,etc) to a christian-Zionist, he leaped up and shouted,``I don`t give a goddamn what it says in the Hebrew! My pastor teaches it, I believe it, and that settles it!`` I say lets send them over there. After all, what`s `Tikkum Olam` without a few goy slaves around for the massas to lord it over.

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 14, 2015 2:39 PM  

@Josh 12:05 pm: ``What`s to be done with them?`` One day while trying to explain the Hebrew prepositions `ad and `le in their relationship to `olam (Strongs #5769, translated ever,perpetual,etc) to a christian-Zionist, he leaped up and shouted,``I don`t give a goddamn what it says in the Hebrew! My pastor teaches it, I believe it, and that settles it!`` I say lets send them over there. After all, what`s `Tikkum Olam` without a few goy slaves around for the massas to lord it over.

I speak Hebrew, and I have no idea what your point is as far as the prepositions before "olam" ("world").

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 14, 2015 2:41 PM  

"ad" is usually translated as "until" and "le" before a noun is either "to" or "for" -- still, I don't understand your point.

Blogger Joshua_D January 14, 2015 2:56 PM  

Samuel Scott January 14, 2015 1:32 PM

If the USA invades Israel tomorrow with the intent of wiping the country out? I'd support Israel because it'd be the moral thing to do -- the US (and no other country) would have no moral right to do such a thing. And I'd say that I'd support the US if the situation were reversed and Israel tried to do something similar.

But the whole question is moot -- such a conflict would never arise, at least for the foreseeable future. Neither country would ever try to do such a thing


Claiming "That'll never happen!" isn't an answer, and adding conditions to the question also isn't an answer.

Here are two questions that should be relatively easy to answer.

1. Do you live in Israel?

2. Should the US and Israel find themselves in some type of normal war, which can easily be imagined, which side would you support?

Anonymous Atombum January 14, 2015 2:57 PM  

I`m going by Strongs. `ab means `forever`, while `le means temporary. I`ve encountered people who also try to confuse the matter by mixing up the rules for both biblical and modern Hebrew. Even in 1611 english `ever` was contextual in meaning. Note that `olam` is translated `ever` not `forever`.

Blogger Danby January 14, 2015 2:59 PM  

"It's like asking Americans of traditionally Irish descent if their families drink a lot. They'd say, "Hell, yes." Ask non-Irish and they're told they're just feeding a stereotype.

You left out violent. Now go fetch my uisca you little bastard, or I'll thrash you.

Seriously, my several members of my family struggle with alcohol problems, including 2 self-described alcoholics. I can see the signs in my own behavior, so I always, always limit myself. I don't want to be that guy.

It's observably true. And the observably true is not anti-anything. It is what it is. Like that the French enjoy violence. Or that Germans follow orders.

The observably true facts about Jews are not anti-semitic. And every one of those statements is observably true.

Anonymous Alexander January 14, 2015 3:03 PM  

Hey, so it looks like the French are getting the ball rolling with a round of hate-speech round ups.

Funny that, all those Muslims demanding hate-speech laws to protect their precious selves from blaspheming infidels... getting themselves rounded up instead for supporting terrorism.

Guess every silver lining has its cloud.

So there we go. All that's needed is to define "Anti-French" sentiment as "Expressing support for another country or sympathizing with foreign nationals" and then there's no need to worry about Tommy calling it a crime or Jews saying its illegal.

Great work, fellas. That socialist paradise where nobody can offend anyone is going to really work out for you.

Blogger Laguna Beach Fogey January 14, 2015 3:04 PM  

That was perfect, Vox.

Blogger bob k. mando January 14, 2015 3:07 PM  

damnit, Vox. i was promised LULZ. i made a major put sell in Popcorn Futures on your advisement.

who is to make good on my investment losses now?

Blogger Danby January 14, 2015 3:09 PM  

"Why is it proper to believe that a person born in America to Jewish parents who's grand parents came to America from Germany ought to have more loyalty to Israel than to Germany?"

Proper's nothing to do with it. Nor has "ought". We see a great many Jews for whom that is true. If some substantial minority of Jews obviously feel divided loyalty, you should not be surprised when that division is suspected in other cases.

The grandchild of Christian Germans on the other hand, does not observably have divided loyalties. Among the even the first generation German immigrants I have known (and I studied the German language for 6 years among a community of East German refugees, so that's quite a few) there were none that had even a hint of divided loyalty. They might send their kids to visit Tante Bertha, but they were Americans, and no-one. especially Tante Bertha, expected them to stay.

Blogger bob k. mando January 14, 2015 3:10 PM  

Feh January 14, 2015 2:29 PM
By definition, a member of the family is always in the right and must always be supported.



uhhhhh, no?

Blogger wrf3 January 14, 2015 3:20 PM  

Nate wrote: I do not love it the way I love tennessee and alabama.

That's because that kind of love, while legal in Tennessee and Alabama, isn't legal in Kentucky.

Anonymous Feh January 14, 2015 3:23 PM  

By definition, a member of the family is always in the right and must always be supported.

uhhhhh, no?


uhhhhh, have you read Banfield?

Obviously not, but for some reason you felt compelled to flaunt your ignorance.

He says an amoral familist is one who seeks to maximize the material, short-run advantage of the nuclear family, assumes that all others do likewise, and only applies standards of right and wrong within the family, never outside it.

Anonymous patrick kelly January 14, 2015 3:28 PM  

@Feh

Substitute country or nation for family: is it still amoral?

Anonymous patrick kelly January 14, 2015 3:29 PM  

@wrf3

Ur funny today....LOL I did....heh...

Anonymous patrick kelly January 14, 2015 3:50 PM  

Guess I'm an amoral gafist........I favor people I give a f about...not so much for others....

Anonymous Athor Pel January 14, 2015 3:59 PM  

" Alexander January 14, 2015 1:27 PM
...
Ultimately, what's going to determine if any one of us belongs is going to be if our neighbors agree we do. Fairness won't factor into it, because all the 'fair' methods will have been exhausted or corrupted or denied by the time it comes down to making the calls."




^ This is what it will come down to. I'm not even putting this into the context of migration. I'm talking about the chaos coming our way.

It is highly likely in the near future that your local area will be the only civilized place left that you know of. Everything outside will be considered wilderness, a place where barbarians come from.




"Feh January 14, 2015 2:29 PM
It is amoral, you imbecile, because standards of right and wrong are not applied to family members. By definition, a member of the family is always in the right and must always be supported."



And your neighbors will hate all of you, and your dog.

Ever have one of your dogs go missing? Now you know why.

Does it feel amoral yet?

Anonymous Sheila January 14, 2015 4:10 PM  

The point that loving or even merely preferring "one's own" does NOT automatically imply a hatred for "the other" is vital, and needs to be repeated ad nauseam. While doing my jog/walk this morning, I passed a young mother with a little boy who I'd seen a few days ago (when it was even colder and windier). I stopped to talk briefly because her predicament (her son wanted to watch the Mexicans putting a new roof on the house across the easement) reminded me of my first summer in Texas when my older son, barely 2, insisted on "helping" build new houses in the neighborhood with his plastic tool set.

Anyhow, I asked where she was from. She said she was German. When I mentioned missing white asparagus in the Spring she wholeheartedly concurred; when I mentioned I thought PEGIDA was terrific, she asked incredulously "You do?!" I explained that point about preferring one's own not meaning hating the other, and used the specific example (emotion, as you noted Vox, can reach most people - particularly women - far easier than pure logic/facts) of how she'd naturally save her son first if a group of children were drowning, but that in no way implied she hated the other children and would want to see them die. She definitely got my point, just as she admitted she hadn't considered it that way before. I told her she should be proud of being German, to which she made a face. I repeated she was from a fine nation and culture, that every country/people had perhaps things in their past they weren't totally proud of, but that in no way negated a love for or pride in one's own nation and heritage. I said she should never apologize for being German, and should teach her son to love his heritage . . . and just to bring the point home, I mentioned that while I was ethnically Jewish, I'm a Christian and a White ethno-nationalist.

Which brings me to my final point - while I am ethnically Jewish (it would be foolish to deny with my DNA), I am also a baptized Christian, and I would most definitely be considered an "anti-semite" (or self hater to the leftists) because I despise the hypocrisy and leftism and dual loyalty and general character of the vast majority of American Jews. I would rather die an American at the hands of Whites who legitimately believe I don't belong here, than live in Israel with people I despise and to whom I feel no connection. That's my rebuttal to someone like Sam Scott. I think all of the "invade the world/invite the world" wars have been foolish, but I could not ever imagine NOT supporting the American people (as distinct from the government) and backing another. I HAVE NO OTHER!!! My husband (half Italian/half Irish) only grudgingly admits to admiration for Italian history and culture and regularly denigrates the Irish (his relatives in particular) as drunks. He has no loyalty other than to America (his great-grandparents immigrated in the early 1880s). So while I agree intellectually with someone like Chris Mallory (that immigration - including the Ellis Island variety - has destroyed America), as a self-declared special snowflake I'd ask mercy and an exception in a few cases.

Anonymous rienzi January 14, 2015 4:21 PM  


What's to be done with them?"If I were in your shoes, I would ask myself this question: if the USA were to go to war with Israel, for whom would I fight? And if the answer were Israel, I would begin making plans to move there because you do not genuinely "feel as American as it is possible to feel".

There is a sizeable chunk of the American evangelical population (Hagee, Falwell, Graham, etc) who would also answer "Israel" when asked that question. However, they're not Jewish and have no right of return.

What's to be done with them?


Almost too easy answer: Cigarette, Blindfold, Firing Squad. Pretty much the go to action when dealing with traitors.

Anonymous rienzi January 14, 2015 4:42 PM  

Why, for example, is it proper to believe a person born in the United States to American born parents would have greater loyalty to Israel?

Ah. Because I've put the question to them personally?

Blogger njartist January 14, 2015 4:54 PM  

Apparently my comment did not post.

Not all Jews are of the house of Judah: the Ashkenazim and Khazars are Japhethites; the Sephardi are Edomites; Edomites have mixed with the Ashkenazim and Khazars; the elite Ashkenazim avoid marriage with the lesser brethren.

Many of the house of Judah don't even know their identity: most of the Ulster Irish and Scots do not know their nations were founded by Judahites: The royal line of Judah's son Zarah left and settled in Northern Ireland; the two royal lines were joined when Jeremiah brought the daughters of Zedekiah to Ireland: Scotland was named after one of he daughters or children. The term Gaelic is derived from the name of a Judahite prince that came through the Caucus Mountains with the migrating "Lost Tribes" of the house of Israel. And where did the Scots-Irish settle in the U.S. The name America has undergone several transformations; but it means son of Manasseh: Welcome to Israel.

All of the house of Judah are Israelites; not all Israelites are of the house of Judah; and that Edomite nation in the middle east has stolen the name Israel which does not belong to it. At best, they could call the nation Judah.

Blogger njartist January 14, 2015 4:56 PM  

The red hand that appears on the Irish seal refers to the scarlet thread put around Zarah's hand by the mid-wife.

OpenID cailcorishev January 14, 2015 5:06 PM  

Who you cheer for in the Olympics and World Cup isn't really that great of a litmus test of your nationalism.

Probably not anymore, at least for the Olympics. It seems like half the athletes from other countries train in the US, play in pro leagues in the US, and/or have American coaches. Then you get the ones that were born and raised American but compete for another country because a parent was from there and their team is easier to make. Sometimes it's not clear which athlete is really the most American, regardless of the flags. I tend to root for the underdogs in hopes that they'll keep things interesting, or for the prettiest girls.

The World Cup is probably more straightforward, and with all the Californians rooting for Mexico, it would only seem natural to root for the USA, no matter where the athletes are from.

OpenID simplytimothy January 14, 2015 5:11 PM  

Nationalism is why "Sweet Home Alabama" strikes a deep chord in everyone who hears it, even if they have never been in the United States and couldn't find Alabama on a map. It's a love song by a southern man to his own people, and even if we don't share that particular love, we understand it, we recognize it. And anyhow, Southern Man need not hate Neil Young to know he doesn't need Neil Young around.

Fer cryin out loud. 110 comments and I am the first to yell...

FREEBIRD!


What the heck is wrong with people nowadays.

Anonymous Alpha January 14, 2015 5:14 PM  

Tolerance of Islam is an expression of a woman's sexual desire for masculinity. Islam is a masculine religion where as Christianity is beta.

OpenID simplytimothy January 14, 2015 5:14 PM  

It would be wrong, I think, to assume that libertarianism is neccessarily contrary to nationalism, as doing so would be to conflate the "nation" with the "state".

A frequently read, "What right do you have to tell me who I can do business with" when discussing free-trade with libertarians. So, at least for some libertarians, your statement is correct.

OpenID simplytimothy January 14, 2015 5:16 PM  

. Islam is a masculine religion where as Christianity is beta.

Careful, Anne Barnhardt will kick your ass .

Blogger Danby January 14, 2015 5:16 PM  

@njartist
You do realize that when Moses was leading his people out of Egypt, the original Irish were building stone temple complexes at places like Newgrange, right? An isolated Jew or two making it to Ireland (if you accept the story, which I don't) does not make "the Irish" descended fro the Jews. Indeed, even the continental Celtic blood is only a substantial minority, from a genetic perspective. The Irish are Celtic because the culture of the Celtic invaders was adopted by the original inhabitants, whether though force or choice.

Blogger njartist January 14, 2015 5:22 PM  

Danby January 14, 2015 5:16 PM
Zarahites left Egypt before Moses did; so did many Danites (Went to Greece). The Researcher I was listening to last week said that the reason Joseph told his brothers they would be safe after Jacob died was precisely to prevent his brother's tribes from leaving.

Blogger Danby January 14, 2015 5:28 PM  

When on people invade and conquer another there are a few choices to be made in how you handle cultural interaction. Some cultures impose their own ways on the conquered peoples (Romans, Celts, Islam). Some adopt the ways of the people they have invaded and disappear into the population (Alans, Mongols in China, Viking in France and Ireland). Some maintain their own culture and live separately from the populace as an elite (Israel, Spanish, Russians) This last is often combined with removing the native population through ethnic removal or genocide (Americans, Soviets, Turks). Some even find ways to combine the two cultures to create a new one.

I do believe we are the first to try inviting the conquered people back to the homeland to rule over us.

OpenID luagha January 14, 2015 6:13 PM  

"If the USA were to go to war with Israel, for whom would I fight?"

It's a great question, and I totally get it. It's even realistic, considering who is currently in the White House.

What I would fight to have happen is the US's first laser-targeted strike destroying the Dome of the Rock while their initial nuclear attack fizzles due to inadequate nuclear upgrades. Israel's retaliatory strike on Washington DC decapitates the US government, increasing productivity and freedom in the US by a hundredfold.

I then fight for the newly-reconstituted United States by hunting down surviving political actors until Israel surrenders to the pressure and sues for peace. Israel concludes the war by the method of paying reparations by bombing Iran.

Blogger SirHamster January 14, 2015 6:28 PM  

"My parents were born here, and two of my grandparents. I feel as American as it is possible to feel. But is it your contention that because of my ancestry, I should take my family and move to Israel?"

-------

Yes, you are not an American.


Wondered if the reaction was overboard, then noticed:

American Jew, not Jewish American. "Feels" American.

Yeah, if you have to ask. If you're counting on some other country as a Plan B if the US kicks you out ... That's conditional loyalty and that ain't American.

Blogger JDC January 14, 2015 6:29 PM  

Fer cryin out loud. 110 comments and I am the first to yell...FREEBIRD! What the heck is wrong with people nowadays.

I believe Freebird was banned along with, "It's in the hole," and "Wow, just wow."

Sweet Home Alabama strikes a cord with anyone who longs to be reunited with kin and have a "homeland." Half my family was born, and still lives in KY, and I have not seen them since I was three - but I still have a yearning to reconnect. I think its funny that the authors of the song were not from AL, and even Kid Rock (MI native) has an obvious affection for the song. I like the idea of Alabama more than I like the actual Alabama.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus January 14, 2015 6:36 PM  

Cogitans Iuvenis: "To be frank, I don't really care about Anglo-Saxons, Celts, Germans, Franks or any of the other European countries where I can draw a lineage to."

I do.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis January 14, 2015 6:48 PM  

Yeah, if you have to ask. If you're counting on some other country as a Plan B if the US kicks you out ... That's conditional loyalty and that ain't American.

Well said sir Hamster.

Blogger Chris Mallory January 14, 2015 6:51 PM  

"Yes, you are not an American.

Wondered if the reaction was overboard, then noticed: "

Honestly, I would expel everyone who did not have their paternal line here in 1800.

OpenID cailcorishev January 14, 2015 6:57 PM  

FREEBIRD!

What the heck is wrong with people nowadays.


We were all trying to figure out how to transcribe, "nuh uh nuh nuh, nu-uh-nu nuh-uh-nuh nuh, nuh-uh-nuh nuh-nuh, nuh-nuh, nuh-nuh, nuh-nuh nuh..."

Blogger SirHamster January 14, 2015 6:58 PM  

Honestly, I would expel everyone who did not have their paternal line here in 1800.

Don't have any other home. You're going to have to bury me here. Ha!

Blogger racketmensch January 14, 2015 7:14 PM  

Look for utube, red army chorus, sweet home Alabama. Kick ass, comrades!

Blogger ChicagoRefugee January 14, 2015 7:30 PM  

Why, for example, is it proper to believe a person born in the United States to American born parents would have greater loyalty to Israel?

I'd say it's a "when" rather than "why" question to be answered thusly: When they or their children serve in the IDF rather than the US military. (E.g., David Brooks and Rahm Emmanuel, et al.)

Anonymous centa January 14, 2015 11:26 PM  

the west was much stronger when God, Mother, and Country was held high, and in that order. nothing exemplifies this more than the story of four chaplains during ww2 aboard the USAT dorchester.. Today, we still fly our flag, but with no real conviction.


instead of sweet home alabama, it has been john denver's country road that i first learned to play on guitar. even though i immigrated to US when i was child, that song has stuck with me .

thanks Vox fir the blog

Anonymous Feh January 15, 2015 12:12 AM  

And your neighbors will hate all of you, and your dog.

Ever have one of your dogs go missing? Now you know why.

Does it feel amoral yet?


Yes, in fact the long-running vendetta, often started over trivial issues, is highly characteristic of amoral familists. Like Sicilians!

Thank you for supporting my point with a salient example.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus January 15, 2015 12:25 AM  

centa: "Today, we still fly our flag, but with no real conviction."

The state owns the flag; the nation doesn't. And the state has become cool toward or in some cases unfriendly to the nation.

For example, young non-Aussies with Australian citizenship often don't like "skippies" and they make their feelings of opposition and territoriality plain, so young Aussies want their own symbols to show back. The naturally hit on "the flag of their nation" but it's not really the flag of their nation it's the flag of their state (or, precisely, of their federation), and as such it points up to authorities, and these authorities are not on the side of ethnically Aussie white kids talking back to "multicultural Australia".

From what I've read, American kids have a similar problem over Cinco de Mayo: the Mexican flag is for the Mexicans, but the American flag is for everyone, however with a bias toward non-whites and against whites.

What is the symbol for us? There isn't one. And given the ways that human beings instinctively play tribal politics, that's a problem.

Anonymous Rhys January 15, 2015 1:04 AM  

@ Titus:

Actually, real Aussies have a symbol - the Southern Cross. That's why you see it tattooed on bogans, stuck to the window of Commodores and painted on white people's cheeks on Australia day*. The Southern Cross may adorn the Australian flag but its use goes back to the Eureka Stockade.

*Bogans may be an underclass but they are the true, genuine, 100% Aussie underclass. I feel more kinship with them then I do a higher class immigrant

Blogger Danby January 15, 2015 1:07 AM  

What is the symbol for us?
Here you go Sport.
Christ, and him crucified

Blogger Danby January 15, 2015 1:10 AM  

or if you prefer more of a racial tinge to your symbolism:
Stars and Bars or
the Stainless Banner

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus January 15, 2015 1:29 AM  

Well, the stars and bars offend some folks
And I guess I see why
But nowadays there's still a way
To show your Southern pride


Camouflage!

Anonymous Discard January 15, 2015 4:17 AM  

Titus: I am personally fond of the Betsy Ross flag, 13 stars and 13 stripes.

Anonymous jayb January 15, 2015 4:49 AM  

@ Titus Didius Tacitus: I guess the Eureka flag would have some cachet?

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus January 15, 2015 5:34 AM  

Thanks for the suggestions. :)

Anonymous Rhys January 15, 2015 5:59 AM  

Apparently blogger ate my previous comment. Titus, real Aussies have the Southern Cross. Have you noticed young bogans getting Southern Cross tattoos? Have you seen Aussies painting the Southern Cross on their faces or sticking it on their cars.

The use of the Southern Cross goes back to the Eureka Stockade and the Eureka flag which jayb noted would be something for real Aussies to rally around.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus January 15, 2015 6:57 AM  

Rhys, I hadn't noticed, but I'll be looking for it from now on -- and passing the word on to interested parties immediately.

Blogger sysadmn January 15, 2015 7:59 AM  

To be fair, the Brits did America one signal service when they burned down Washington DC in the war of 1812.

Sounds like Jay Leno's quip about the movie Independence Day - "A giant alien spacecraft burns down Washington D.C. Later in the movie, we find out they're hostile.

Blogger Joshua Dyal January 15, 2015 9:08 AM  

@Sheila: I suspect that the "does their patrilineal line extend back as genuinely American to 1880 or before" is merely a surrogate for "have they sufficiently integrated into American culture to the point where they are as truly American and not of divided loyalty". The problem isn't immigration per se... it's immigration of those who don't come because they long to BE Americans. Once upon a time, immigrants largely came to be Americans. Now they mostly come to see what they can get out of America. Big difference.

Blogger njartist January 15, 2015 10:53 AM  

Honestly, I would expel everyone who did not have their paternal line here in 1800.

Nitwit, I can do you several better:
1. Expel anyone whose direct, on the correct side of the sheets, patrilinear line does not directly come from the founders of either Jamestown or the initial pilgrims;
2. Expel anyone whose direct, on the correct side of the sheets, patrilinear line does not descend from those who directly fought in or materially supported the Revolutionary War;
3. Do any of the above; but expel any and all Masons and the patrilinear descendents of Masons: you bastards have done enough damage....
4. Do the first but include only allow to remain those descendants who have remained true and faithful Christians.
...

Anonymous Chad January 15, 2015 11:34 AM  

IMO the leftist's campaign against nationalist sentiment has been to falsely equivocate nationalism with jingoism (particularly instances where to emphasize the love for your own countries you express hatred of other countries). So in their twisted mind they would automatically equate expressing a love of own country with expressing a hatred of others.

It seems to me that leftists deem themselves virtuous by inverting the vice of extreme jingoism. Since they claim to love the entire world and have the only manifestation of this 'love' to be a deep hatred of their own country.

Anonymous zapbrannigan1 January 15, 2015 10:06 PM  

@Feh (from waaay back 60 comments up)

What an great movie that is. Klein's rant is epic.

Blogger seth datta January 16, 2015 10:13 PM  

jews are murderers. They are a cancer and much more numerous than 18 million. These people seek to displace God and take his place.

Blogger Tom Kratman January 17, 2015 12:24 AM  

On the other hand, some of my English friends do still insist on referring to the US as "the Colonies".

I think they say that mostly to get our goat. Frequently among themselves, when we can't hear it or they don't know we can, we're "the cousins." We're not the only cousins, but we are _the_ cousins.

Blogger Tom Kratman January 17, 2015 12:26 AM  

"jews are murderers. They are a cancer and much more numerous than 18 million. These people seek to displace God and take his place."

What a fascinating set of statements. Would you care to elaborate on them, perchance?

Blogger Manveer Claire January 18, 2015 10:28 PM  

Why is it those who are English in name only, when talked about, are of the brown and black variety, Desi's, Muslims, Africans, etc?

English does not equal all white people. The Irish, the Italians, Scottish, Germans, Swedish, etc, are also not English, if the Desi's and Africans can't be.

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