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Tuesday, January 13, 2015

Those anti-semitic Israelis

Is it not remarkable how, when the Israeli Prime Minister said Jews living in Europe should move to Israel, he was not attacked as being anti-semitic in the way everyone else who wishes the Jews well and advises precisely the same thing is?
Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu has invited Jews from France and the rest of Europe to immigrate to the state of Israel, referring to what he sees as a “rising tide of anti-Semitism” there. The statement comes in the wake of the Charlie Hebdo attacks.

“To all the Jews of France, all the Jews of Europe, I would like to say that Israel is not just the place in whose direction you pray, the state of Israel is your home,” Prime Minister Netanyahu said in a televised statement on Saturday, referencing the Jewish tradition of facing Jerusalem when praying.

Netanyahu called on lawmakers to alter the existing immigration laws to make it easier for Jews to permanently move to Israel.
So, what do we conclude from this, that Benjamin Netanyahu hates the Jews? I note that absolutely none of my previous critics have remarked upon the fact that I was absolutely correct to have warned the Jews of the changing mood in Europe, and to have urged them leave Europe and emigrate to their homeland. Had the Jews in Paris done so sooner, they would not have been murdered by Muslims as they were in Granada and eventually in every Muslim-controlled city in Spain and the Maghreb.

Reports from the period describe that, after an initial 7-month grace period, the Almohads killed or forcefully converted Jewish communities in each new city they conquered until "there was no Jew left from Silves to Mahdia"

A man cannot have two masters, and the French Prime Minister Valls (who is a Spaniard) was absolutely incorrect to claim that France requires Jews any more than it requires Spaniards, Germans, Russians, or Turks. France without Jews is France. It is the Israeli Prime Minister who is correct. Israel is their home. The various nations of Europe are not, and it is time for everyone to stop pretending that they are. The diversity concept is dead. It has failed, and failed spectacularly.

It is not necessary to love or hate anyone to recognize that a group of people whose foremost concern is "is it good for the Jews" is never going to be entirely acceptable to those whose primary concern is "is it good for the French". That is straightforward logic, it is simple set theory, and in a time of rising nationalism around the world, from the Islamic State to Germany, non-nationals everywhere would do well to either a) fully convert or b) return to their home nations.

Especially when one of the historical lessons of al-Andalus is that when Muslim and Western cultures clash, the Jews tend to end up as collateral damage. For the European Jews, emigrating to America instead of Israel looks rather like the Medieval Jews fleeing from the Almohads to what eventually became the Spanish Inquisition. And given the economic trend of the last 60 years, I very much doubt it will take another 345 years for Americans to begin doubting the loyalties of the USA's Jewish residents, as the Spanish Christians eventually came to do.

NB: When considering these large-scale movement of people, try to recall that the significant changes tend to take decades, even centuries, to play out, even though the obvious turning points can often be identified at specific moments in time. As Guy Gavriel Kay's novel shows, we often tend to look at certain sections of history while ignoring the relevant sections that immediately preceded or followed it, and thereby reach erroneous conclusions.

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118 Comments:

Blogger Mr.MantraMan January 13, 2015 6:22 AM  

Liberalism being ground to dust upon the rock of Islam. Once the taboos of Political Correctness are banished to bad memories I'll bet blood lusts of progressives are unleashed with a vengeance.

Blogger Shimshon January 13, 2015 6:37 AM  

Reading Caroline Glick's breathless rendering of L'affaire Bibi, I came up with Likud's new campaign slogan:

Bibi. He leaves the French pissed, the Jews proud, and our women swooning.

Anonymous An Israeli January 13, 2015 6:37 AM  

The French PM wasn't referring to France as a country, but to the French Republic. The Republic has certain ideals that he feels will be exposed as untenable/false if a large number of Jews emigrate/flee France the country.

As far as Netanyahu calling the Jews to make Aliyah, that is a traditional Zionist aspiration, and cannot be termed anti-semitic. He is not the first one to do so, Ariel Sharon made a similar call in 2004.

However, some wish to force the Jews to leave countries in which they currently reside and in which they are citizens. That is anti-semitic.

Blogger stats January 13, 2015 6:48 AM  

However, some wish to force the Jews to leave countries in which they currently reside and in which they are citizens. That is anti-semitic.

So be it. Can't come soon enough, seeing as Nentanyahu probably facilited the attack in France through his Israeli cutout, ISIS.

Anonymous zen0 January 13, 2015 6:57 AM  

An Israeli:

However, some wish to force the Jews to leave countries in which they currently reside and in which they are citizens. That is anti-semitic.

God is an anti-Semite, then. How delicious is that?

God will Restore Israel
…15but, 'As the LORD lives, who brought up the sons of Israel from the land of the north and from all the countries where He had banished them.' For I will restore them to their own land which I gave to their fathers. 16"Behold, I am going to send for many fishermen," declares the LORD, "and they will fish for them; and afterwards I will send for many hunters, and they will hunt them from every mountain and every hill and from the clefts of the rocks. 17"For My eyes are on all their ways; they are not hidden from My face, nor is their iniquity concealed from My eyes.…

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 13, 2015 6:57 AM  

Shimson, have a link to Glick's article? I don't think she writes for the JPost anymore...

Blogger Mindstorm January 13, 2015 6:58 AM  

http://westhunt.wordpress.com/2013/10/08/jewish-moms/

Of course the Israeli Prime Minister wants what is good for Israel. Interests of Diaspora are secondary concerns.

Anonymous Toby Temple January 13, 2015 7:03 AM  

I think its the same as the word nigger. Only blacks can say it, supposedly.

Anonymous zen0 January 13, 2015 7:06 AM  

Of course the Israeli Prime Minister wants what is good for Israel.

The Israeli Prime Minister is in the midst of an election campaign.

Question:



What did the sages mean with their prediction that in the era before Moshiach, “The face of the generation will be like the face of a dog”?



Answer:



The eminent Rabbi Yisrael Salanter of blessed memory once explained this teaching as follows:

A dog by nature runs ahead of its master, always turning around to see where he is heading; whatever that direction may be, the dog arrives there first.

Now in common Hebrew and Yiddish parlance, the phrase pnei hador (here translated as “the face of the generation”) often signifies those who are [supposed to be] the leaders of the generation. In our days, however, on the eve of the Redemption, these ostensible leaders merely look around to see where their congregants would like to head, and they run there first…

Blogger Shimshon January 13, 2015 7:07 AM  

Sam Scott:

https://www.facebook.com/carolineglick/posts/793944657342957

Anonymous VD January 13, 2015 7:09 AM  

However, some wish to force the Jews to leave countries in which they currently reside and in which they are citizens. That is anti-semitic.

Forcing them to leave may be anti-semitic. Advising them to leave is not.

I also not that it is not "anti-semitic" to expel individuals who have demonstrated that they hold a higher allegiance to a foreign power. Indeed, it would not be "anti-semitic" to try them for treason, should they act on the basis of that higher allegiance.

I very much doubt Israel would hesitate to try an Arab-Israeli citizen who was passing information to Egypt, for example.

Anonymous An Israeli January 13, 2015 7:31 AM  

God is an anti-Semite, then. How delicious is that?

I am not religious, so it doesn't mean a lot to me.

Forcing them to leave may be anti-semitic. Advising them to leave is not.

Quite. I did not say nor imply that you did anything but advise.

I very much doubt Israel would hesitate to try an Arab-Israeli citizen who was passing information to Egypt, for example.

I wish. Arabs do that all the time. In the Knesset sits a former adviser to Arafat, and other Arab MKs went to Qater who sponsors Hamas and talked with a variety of Israel's enemies.

If a case could be brought against them for passing vital information, then it would be different, but regular information gets a pass.

I also not that it is not "anti-semitic" to expel individuals who have demonstrated that they hold a higher allegiance to a foreign power

Talking about Jews as a group is not the same as talking about individuals. A traitor or spy is something different, of course, and should be treated harshly in accordance to law.

Anonymous VD January 13, 2015 7:38 AM  

I did not say nor imply that you did anything but advise.

I didn't take it as criticism. I simply wanted to point out the difference.

Talking about Jews as a group is not the same as talking about individuals. A traitor or spy is something different, of course, and should be treated harshly in accordance to law.

I concur.

Anonymous zen0 January 13, 2015 7:44 AM  

@ An Israeli
I am not religious, so it doesn't mean a lot to me.

Ah. Interesting. How do you justify stealing Arab land, then?

Blogger Jack Truman January 13, 2015 7:49 AM  

So what if it's "anti-Semitic" to expel the Jews? The Europeans don't actually owe the Jews anything, these are their countries and they can choose who gets to reside in there and who doesn't. I would like nothing more than for Israel to expel its """Palestinian""" population, which is hostile and unassimilable. And if ever the Europeans throw the Moslems back to the third world, I'd support that. So why should Jews even care about the "anti-Semitism" of those who call upon them to leave? Don't Jews understand that other people have different interests than their own? Of course back in the 30s Jews knew that, and some Zionists offered to collaborate with *gasp* Nazi Germany if that means the Jews are sent to Israel. It is one thing that Jews only care about "what is good for the Jews", but the expectation that everyone else will do the same is bizarre, even 'entitled'. Different peoples have their own interests and agendas. Get over it.

Anonymous An Israeli January 13, 2015 7:51 AM  

Ah. Interesting. How do you justify stealing Arab land, then?

I don't need to justify it since I have done no such thing, nor did my people.

Anonymous roo_ster January 13, 2015 7:58 AM  

zeno:

The same way it has been for millenia. Because he or they can.

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 13, 2015 7:58 AM  

Ah. Interesting. How do you justify stealing Arab land, then?

Never happened. Interesting obituary in the NYT today:

Joan Peters, Journalist Who Wrote on Israeli-Palestinian Conflict, Dies at 78

Ms. Peters cited historical documents showing that Arab settlers had flocked to Palestine beginning in the late 1800s, often drawn there by economic opportunities in areas that were being developed by Jewish settlers; they had not, she wrote, inhabited the land “from time immemorial.”

The widely accepted narrative of displaced Palestinian refugees had been created to justify the destruction of Israel, she asserted, concluding that Palestinian refugees should be absorbed by Arab nations like Jordan.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/13/world/middleeast/joan-peters-journalist-who-wrote-on-israeli-palestinian-conflict-dies-at-78.html

Blogger stats January 13, 2015 8:01 AM  

Is it not remarkable how, when the Israeli Prime Minister said Jews living in Europe should move to Israel,

Have you ever visited Israel? Ugly as sin. Only way European or American Jews move there is if they are forced. Seeing what a pernicious force they've been in the States, I say we do all in our power to convince them to make the move.

Blogger W.LindsayWheeler January 13, 2015 8:04 AM  

Diversity is possible when people live in their own ghettos. Medieval Jerusalem had a Latin quarter, an Armenian quarter, a Muslim quarter and a Jewish quarter.

There was diversity in Catholic Europe when Jews were segregated and lived in their own ghettos and communities. The problem was Jewish propagandizing and undermining of the Christian culture. When Napoleon emancipated the Jews, that is what the problem was.

Blogger stats January 13, 2015 8:05 AM  

Ms. Peters cited historical documents showing that Arab settlers had flocked to Palestine beginning in the late 1800s,

Huh, very similar to wandering Jews in that way. So I'm sure you won't mind when Europeans request that Israel assimilate all of their unwanted Jews?

Blogger John Rampton January 13, 2015 8:17 AM  

Wasn't this the reason Israel was created as a modern state? So the Jews could avoid being a convenient scapegoat for dictators?

Anonymous Josh January 13, 2015 8:21 AM  

It may be wise for them to emigrate, but I think there is a world of difference between "Please leave!" and "Please come!", which probably explains why people find the former in poor taste or even antisemitic without having a problem with the latter. I think it's as simple as that. Telling someone to leave and inviting them to stay are two sides of the same coin, but they are not synonymous.

Anonymous zen0 January 13, 2015 8:21 AM  

@ Samuel Scott Never happened. Interesting obituary in the NYT today:

Joan Peters, Journalist Who Wrote on Israeli-Palestinian Conflict, Dies at 78


Yes. I am familiar with Ms. Peters work. I was checking to see if An Israeli was infected with what Manighut Yehudit terms the "Oslo Mentality" or not.

Anonymous An Israeli January 13, 2015 8:33 AM  

Yes. I am familiar with Ms. Peters work. I was checking to see if An Israeli was infected with what Manighut Yehudit terms the "Oslo Mentality" or not.

I do not know exactly what Feiglin has meant by that, but from what I do know, the answer is that I am not.

Blogger Tank January 13, 2015 8:44 AM  

Is it not remarkable how, when the Israeli Prime Minister said Jews living in Europe should move to Israel, he was not attacked as being anti-semitic in the way everyone else who wishes the Jews well and advises precisely the same thing is?

I'd say that most of the "everyone else" who wishes the Jews would leave do not wish them well. Other than that, I do not disagree with your post. For us Jews, if we wish to live in Christian lands, we should STFU and live as they do.

Blogger stats January 13, 2015 8:48 AM  

For us Jews, if we wish to live in Christian lands, we should STFU and live as they do.

If only. Unfortunately for all involved a large portion of Jews have extraordinary verbals skills. Thus one of the reasons they are so disliked.

Blogger Joshua Dyal January 13, 2015 9:14 AM  

I'd say that most of the "everyone else" who wishes the Jews would leave do not wish them well. Other than that, I do not disagree with your post. For us Jews, if we wish to live in Christian lands, we should STFU and live as they do.

I'd say that's a bit of paranoid persecution complex. Not really wanting to have Jews (or anyone else for that matter) live in your nation alongside your fellow nationals is not equivalent to wishing them harm, or even not wishing them well.

For example, I'm somewhat sympathetic to the concerns of those of Latin American countries overall. I speak Spanish, my son is currently living in South America, as I did for a short time when I was younger, and I can relate to some aspects of their culture and psyche. I wish Latin America well.

However, I wish them well in their own home countries. I don't wish them to all set up shop here in the US, and it irks me considerably that we've allowed a de facto invasion of Latin Americans across our southern border. I would, in fact, favor a rather massive deportation scheme and border securitization, as one of the few acts of the federal government that I could support.

But it's not because I wish ill to Latin Americans. You've fallen victim to a somewhat binary mode of thinking, at least to appearances.

Anonymous MInTheGap January 13, 2015 9:22 AM  

How does this jive with missionary work in foreign countries? If part of the Great Commission is to reach all nations, and the nation is a Muslim nation that you're trying to reach, does your advice mean that we should not send Christians there? Should those that convert leave, or should they stay to convert others?

Anonymous Rabbi B January 13, 2015 9:33 AM  

"It is not necessary to love or hate anyone to recognize that a group of people whose foremost concern is "is it good for the Jews" is never going to be entirely acceptable to those whose primary concern is "is it good for the French"."

Are we so obtuse as to believe that the race of Haman died out with his ten sons? What has happened to Israel also serves as an example which all nations should soberly consider if they turn their backs to G-d's laws and universal morality.

Returning to the land is an important first step, but only a first step. I can't help but view the world through the lens of His Word, and this view tells me that our continued survival in the land depends entirely on repentance and obedience to Hashem. The moment we cease to fulfill our purpose in dwelling there, Hashem will be sure to remove His special protections and once again we will revert back to our naturally weak and impotent status. Since the cause of our departure and current exile was due to turning our collective backs to Him, it will take more than a mere return to the land and nothing less than a rectification of the underlying causes of our expulsion for us to enjoy the peace that redemption offers. This will soon become apparent to religious and irreligious alike.

"Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion. For thus saith the L-RD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money" (Isaiah 52)

Anonymous Mickey Marcus January 13, 2015 9:34 AM  

>> Ah. Interesting. How do you justify stealing Arab land, then?

> I don't need to justify it since I have done no such thing, nor did my people.

It is called "Right of Conquest", as Prof. Dershowitz explained a few years ago. When you conquer and subjugate a people you make the rules, just like the conquerers in WWI and WWII rewrote state boundaries, enslaved soldiers for years as reparations, and ethnically cleansed entire regions of troublesome minorities. And, God bless 'em, the Jews, like any other nation, are conquering and cleansing Eretz Yisroel.

Or, as an Israeli drinking buddy said to me several decades ago, "You killed your Indians, why can't we kill ours?"

Blogger Mindstorm January 13, 2015 9:39 AM  

To reword someone else, what is more suspicious than a good offer? It bears investigating why it is enticing for the other side of the deal.

Blogger Robert What? January 13, 2015 10:20 AM  

It is a real Catch 22 for European Jews. Half the world think they should go to Israel and the other half think that Israel does not belong to the Jews.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 January 13, 2015 10:50 AM  

Wasn't this the reason Israel was created as a modern state? So the Jews could avoid being a convenient scapegoat for dictators?

Yeah, that was the official reason.

But I doubt that narrative because world leaders are worse than con artists.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus January 13, 2015 10:55 AM  

Speed the parting guest.

Blogger J Thomas January 13, 2015 11:01 AM  

"Thus do I speak to you in parables, you who make the soul giddy, you preachers of equality! You are tarantulas and dealers in hidden revengefulness!"

Guess who said it!

Anonymous Cryan Ryan January 13, 2015 11:04 AM  

You might have heard of an experiment done with kids.

Groups of children in a supervised setting were given M&M's in equal amounts. The kids were told there would be a tally taken at the end of the day, and then a week later the kids with the highest tallies would receive free candy for the whole school year.

The Jewish kids immediately began accumulating M&M's.
WASPs also gained a few, but at a slower rate.

The black kids ate all of theirs immediately, then prowled around, looking for crumbs or weak kids.

The Asian kids used theirs to fashion an abacus.

The American Indians traded all theirs to the whites for promises of future candy.

The redneck kids challenged anyone to try to take one. No one did.

The Arab kids lost all their M&M's. They didn't know where theirs went, but they got real angry and started cutting themselves.

Experiment was halted.

Jewish kids required bodyguards thereafter.

Anonymous Jack Amok January 13, 2015 11:26 AM  

I'd say that most of the "everyone else" who wishes the Jews would leave do not wish them well. Other than that, I do not disagree with your post. For us Jews, if we wish to live in Christian lands, we should STFU and live as they do.

A good philosophy. I'd just add that "live as they do" includes dropping the clannishness, especially in the US.

Anonymous VD January 13, 2015 11:44 AM  

Or, as an Israeli drinking buddy said to me several decades ago, "You killed your Indians, why can't we kill ours?"

Ahem....

Blogger IM2L844 January 13, 2015 11:54 AM  

I'd just add that "live as they do" includes dropping the clannishness

Clanishness is perfectly acceptable in the U.S. for every single culture and sub culture except for members of white culture who are expected to shuffle around with heads hung low while mumbling apologies without making eye contact. Any hint of pride in white culture is axiomatically deemed supremacist bigotry or some such nonsense.

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 13, 2015 11:59 AM  

Clanishness is perfectly acceptable in the U.S. for every single culture and sub culture except for members of white culture

"White" is not a culture; it's a skin color.

When I lived in the United States, I always saw Italians, Irish, and countless other ethnicities hanging out among themselves.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus January 13, 2015 11:59 AM  

A single tear descends the wronged Red Man's cheek.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus January 13, 2015 12:01 PM  

"White" is not a skin color, it's a genetic heritage.

Anonymous Jack Amok January 13, 2015 12:03 PM  

Clanishness is perfectly acceptable in the U.S. for every single culture and sub culture except for members of white culture...

You're perhaps missing the point. The people who founded the US disliked clannishness and we, their descendants, dislike it as well. We don't like it in ourselves, it's not our way. We've tolerated in others in the expectation that they would get over it and adopt our ways. Foolish us. We're not going to become clannish. We're going to expell people who are, because they are becoming unacceptable parasites upon our culture and their presence and their ways are making our ways untenable.

Anonymous Jack Amok January 13, 2015 12:21 PM  

When I lived in the United States, I always saw Italians, Irish, and countless other ethnicities hanging out among themselves.

Sameul, I think you saw what you expected to see, not what was there. Now, granted, Italians and Irish are more clannish than Anglo-Saxons, but even among them what you saw was not the clannishness that I see among Jews, Arabs and Chinese. Italians and Irishmen can generally do business with one-another (and with Anglos) and nobody has to worry excessively about being cheated because they've got the wrong surname. Even during the Troubles, Irish-Americans didn't try to warp US foreign policy towards supporting Ireland. Some sent money to the IRA, but the US never got involved in a war on behalf of Ireland.

Your ways include clannishnes as a given - you expect it and assume it as a natural part of society. You probalby think I'm complaining about gravity, because you assume it's always there.

Anonymous Rabbi B January 13, 2015 12:33 PM  

"Your ways include clannishnes as a given - you expect it and assume it as a natural part of society."

So long as the clan behaves itself and strives to contribute in a meaningful and positive way, while seeking the best interests of its host country, 'clannishness' shouldn't be too much of an issue - ideally.

"Marry and have sons and daughters; find wives for your sons and give your daughters in marriage, so that they too may have sons and daughters. Increase in number there; do not decrease. Also, seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the L-rd for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper.” (Jeremiah 29)

A principle worthy of consideration.

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 13, 2015 12:34 PM  

Or, as an Israeli drinking buddy said to me several decades ago, "You killed your Indians, why can't we kill ours?"

I don't know your friend, obviously, but I think -- hope? -- he was joking. Only the 0.01% most-extreme Israelis think that way. Israelis have a tendency to exaggerate for effect (and to get amusement from the reactions), I'll admit.

Anonymous karsten January 13, 2015 12:41 PM  

Never in my life did I think that I would agree with Netanyahu about anything.

In a strange way, this means that the Muslims are doing us a favour.

Once the self-styled Chosen are gone and their media influence wanes, it will be ten times easier to get rid of the kebab.

That, then, is the correct sequence:

1. Let the kebab make the European climate kosher-unfriendly, in a way that whites no longer seem to have the stomach to do.

2. Encourage them to "Don't let the door hit you on the way out" as they depart our white homelands.

3. Encourage the remaining kebab to flee Europe's "rising anti-Islamism."

Who knew? The kebab and Netanyahu could end up being our allies.

Very neat.

Blogger IM2L844 January 13, 2015 12:42 PM  

You're perhaps missing the point. We're not going to become clannish.

No I'm not. We already are clannish and have fully accepted it. Just look around at the various clubs, organizations, rallies, parades, magazines, television channels and the like completely dedicated to particular cultural clans. They're everywhere all the time and nobody has any problem with it at whatsoever except for when it comes to one very particular clan (culture). As a matter of fact, anyone who objects to multiculti clanishness in the slightest is immediately excoriated with what amounts to a digital public flogging.

Blogger Tom Kratman January 13, 2015 12:51 PM  

I wonder what they can do to make it easier. I'm Catholic and have right of return. Pay airfare? They've done that sometimes.

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 13, 2015 12:54 PM  

I wonder what they can do to make it easier. I'm Catholic and have right of return. Pay airfare? They've done that sometimes.

They pay for a one-way ticket (if you go through official channels via the Jewish Agency). It's what I got years ago. Other Jews just come as tourists or students and then decide to claim the Law of Return once they're here.

BUT -- anyone who qualifies under the Law of Return (at least one Jewish grandparent) but has adopted another religion is no longer eligible. I think the Israeli Supreme Court said that was OK because there were appeals.

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 13, 2015 12:58 PM  

Oh, Rabbi B -- obviously I'm opposed to your theological views as a "Jew for Jesus" (or whatever), but just a friendly, objective word of caution: I don't know how Israel would view your status legally should you decide to try to make aliyah.

If I recall correctly, there have been court cases where Jews for Jesus were not allowed to make aliyah. And I think the government investigates a person's background whenever they think this may be the case. I have no citations, only vague memories of what I've read in the news. I'd look into this issue, just for your own sake.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera January 13, 2015 1:00 PM  

Observation from another side of the internet: high-IQ European Jews do not have the same phrenology markers as other high-IQ Europeans (who tend to express remnant traits of neanderthals, et al.). In fact, they are often indistinguishable from Ashkenazim of average intelligence (~112 IQ). This suggests their eugenic striation was much more recent, and involved selection of preferred traits from various European races (this latter is suggested because a German Jew looks more like a French Jew than a white German).

Personally, I've theorized that Ashkenazi eugenics is due to their habit of getting the dumber and poorer Jews Holocausted due to the actions of their richer, smarter elites (who escape and reproduce the cycle in another country).

Blogger Tom Kratman January 13, 2015 1:03 PM  

_Adopted_ another religion, yes. What gets me in, if I cared to go, is that I didn't adopt another religion, but was raised in it with no choice. Well...that and Israel's tacit adoption of thje Nuremburg laws as defining who could be considered under threat.

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 13, 2015 1:04 PM  

I've theorized that Ashkenazi eugenics is due to their habit of getting the dumber and poorer Jews Holocausted due to the actions of their richer, smarter elites (who escape and reproduce the cycle in another country).

*Eyeroll.*

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 13, 2015 1:07 PM  

Tom, that might have been a poor word choice on my part. If you have another religion, the I'm pretty sure you can't get in -- regardless of whether you adopted it yourself or were born into it.

Now, if you were to forswear being Catholic and were just secular and atheist or whatever, you'd be fine because of being (at least) 1/4 ethnically Jewish.

Anonymous clk January 13, 2015 1:11 PM  

VD says "Forcing them to leave may be anti-semitic. Advising them to leave is not".

Well advising all the jews to move a desert country, with few resources, surrounded by an enemy that would cut of the heads of every jewish man, woman and child and not shed a tear hardly seems like the advice of an super genius friend.

If I were a Jew in Europe right now looking for a place to move .. I would be moving to Brooklyn... you might get mugged but its nothing personal.

Blogger Tom Kratman January 13, 2015 1:13 PM  

Don't think so,. Steven, since the law expressly covers non-Jewish spouses and children of those who have one Jewish grandparent. So long as I didn't renounce being a a Jew, which, of course, I didn't because I'm not, I am in if they are.

Blogger Rabbi B January 13, 2015 1:13 PM  

@Samuel Scott

Yeah, I get it, believe me. But, sometimes, it's not what you know it's who you know.

Interestingly, I have some advocates from Chabad and other Orthodox circles, here locally and in Israel, who are advocating for me in spite of my opinion about the identity of the Messiah. My opinion about the Mashiach has not interfered with or diminished my frum and shomer Shabbos lifestyle which remains compatible with traditional Judaism in practice. The Jewish Agency may be another kettle of herring, but I am willing to try.

Since I don't align myself with 'Jews for Jesus' types nor do I go out of my way and make myself obnoxious by actively proselytizing, I have been able to find some favor in influential circles who are sympathetic to my case. Ultimately, if it is Hashem's will, even the bureaucracy that is the Jewish Agency will not be able to interfere. So, I remain optimistic. When the glass is half full, sometimes you just need a smaller glass. Here's to hoping.

Blogger Tom Kratman January 13, 2015 1:14 PM  

Samuel, rather, not Steven. Was arguing with a Steven, earlier. And premature senitity und scheisse. Yeah, that's the ticket...

Anonymous Stilicho January 13, 2015 1:15 PM  

Sam, why is it that atheism is acceptable while Rabbi B's beliefs are not? It's not as if atheism isn't a faith based belief system opposed to Judaism. I'd even venture that atheism is far more inimical to Judaism than than the beliefs of a messianic Jew like Rabbi B who believes that the Messiah has already come.

Anonymous Stilicho January 13, 2015 1:19 PM  

Sure, Tom, spend your time splitting legal hairs with a people who have been known to argue technicalities with God. When you're done, there are some nice windmills over here...

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 13, 2015 1:22 PM  

Well advising all the jews to move a desert country, with few resources, surrounded by an enemy that would cut of the heads of every jewish man, woman and child and not shed a tear hardly seems like the advice of an super genius friend.

That's flat-out wrong. Yes, there are serious security issues here. But I meet many young, twentysomething American and European Jews who come here as tourists or students and want to stay because of the economy.

Some points:

1. Israeli banks were barely exposed to the financial crisis because of strict government regulations on lending
2. Not including the Arab-Israeli and ultra-Orthodox sectors, Israel has close to full employment
3. The high-tech sector is booming in "Startup Nation," and those companies need native speakers of English and European languages
4. High-tech salaries are close to those of the US and Europe -- I personally work in digital marketing and communications here
5. Israeli law mandates a corporate-matching pension, severance pay that is set aside each month and is then paid whenever an employee leaves, paid maternity leave, a full-month of extra salary whenever an employee is terminated without notice, and a single-payer universal health-care system -- what I pay per month in health-insurance taxes is cheaper than what I would pay each month for health care in the US

Good luck finding a lot of that in the US.

Blogger Anthony January 13, 2015 1:28 PM  

Samuel Scott - looking on Wikipedia, the exception for people of other religions is "except for a person who has been a Jew and has voluntarily changed his/her religion". Since Tom Kratman was raised a Catholic, rather than having "voluntarily changed his religion", he would still be eligible.

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 13, 2015 1:29 PM  

Sam, why is it that atheism is acceptable while Rabbi B's beliefs are not?

I don't know. My point here is not to justify or denigrate Israeli policy. It's just to state objectively what that policy is.

Anyone who is at least 1/4 ethnically Jewish but is not a member of another religion can become an automatic citizen. If that person is a member of another religion, he or she cannot.

As best as I understand, that is the policy. For better or worse, right or wrong.

Blogger Tom Kratman January 13, 2015 1:30 PM  

Ummm...you did notice, Stil, that I do have right of return and came by it honestly? So I'll see your Talmudic hairsplitters and raise you one gypsy and several micks.

OpenID cailcorishev January 13, 2015 1:31 PM  

It's not as if atheism isn't a faith based belief system opposed to Judaism.

Considering the number of "Jewish atheists," it appears that many Jews disagree and don't see a conflict there, and their national policy reflects that.

Blogger Tom Kratman January 13, 2015 1:31 PM  

I believe your legally wrong about that, Sam, because the law clearly requires renunciation to be cut off and clearly covers people who never were Jews. (Yes, I used to be a lawyer.)

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 13, 2015 1:31 PM  

Anthony, that could very well be correct -- I'm not 100% certain. It's a complex issue that gets a lot of legal attention in the courts here. And, sadly, sometimes these things come down to, as Rabbi B said, who you know rather than what the policy says.

Anonymous VD January 13, 2015 1:32 PM  

I'm Catholic and have right of return.

Sam has already pointed this out, but no, you don't. If you're baptized, you lose the right of return.

Three famous cases tested the Law of Return and a Jew’s right to immediate citizenship. The first example involved Brother Daniel (born Oswald Rufeisen), a Jew who converted to Christianity during the Holocaust and had become a Carmelite Monk. During his youth, Rufeisen was active in a Zionist youth movement and fled to Vilna, Lithuania at the start of World War II. There he worked as a slave laborer and escaped to Mir where he worked for the police as a translator. Rufeisen took advantage of his position and smuggled arms to his Jewish friends and helped drive the police out from Mir before it was liquidated, saving nearly 300 Jews. Rufeisen hid in the forest and later a convent, where he decided to convert to Christianity. In 1962, Rufeisen, now Brother Daniel, applied to immigrate to Israel and, after being denied, he appealed to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court ruled that despite the fact he was born to a Jewish mother, he had since converted and should not be recognized as a Jew by the State of Israel.

Subsequent to which: in 1970, an amendment to the Law of Return passed stating that only persons born to a Jewish mother or who had converted to Judaism were allowed to immigrate to Israel under the Law of Return.

Anonymous VD January 13, 2015 1:35 PM  

If you converted to Judaism, particularly Orthdox Judaism, you'd probably be allowed. But as it stands, no. It doesn't really matter what the law is, the whole point of the law is to keep out Christians.

Blogger Tom Kratman January 13, 2015 1:36 PM  

No, he's wrong.

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 13, 2015 1:37 PM  

Full text of the Law of Return with amendments: http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/mfa-archive/1950-1959/pages/law%20of%20return%205710-1950.aspx

See section 4B under amendment 4-2:

For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member of another religion."

Blogger Tom Kratman January 13, 2015 1:38 PM  

Here's the 1970 amendment:

The Law of Return, 5730-1970: 2nd Amendment

1. In the Law of Return, 5710-1950, the following sections shall be inserted after section 4:
"Rights of members of family:
4A.
a. The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights of an Oleh under the Nationality Law, 5710 - 1950, as well as the rights of an Oleh under any other enactment, are also vested in a child and grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew, except for a person who has been a Jew and has voluntarily changed his religion.
b. It shall be immaterial whether or not a Jew by whose right a right under subsection (a) is claimed is still alive and whether or not he has immigrated to Israel.
c. The restrictions and conditions prescribed in respect of a Jew or an Oleh by or under this Law or by the enactments referred to in subsection (a) shall also apply to a person who claims a right under subsection (a).
Definition:
4B. For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member of another religion."
In section 5 of the Law of Return, 5710 - 1950, the following shall be added at the end: "Regulations for the purposes of sections 4A and 4B require the approval of the Constitution, Legislation and Judicial Committee of the Knesset."
In the Population Registry Law, 5725-1965, the following section shall be inserted after section 3:
3A.
A person shall not be registered as a Jew by ethnic affiliation or religion if a notification under this Law or another entry in the Registry or a public document indicates that he is not a Jew, so long as the said notification, entry or document has not been converted to the satisfaction of the Chief Registration Officer or so long as declaratory judgment of a competent court or tribunal has not otherwise determined.
For the purposes of this Law and of any registration or document thereunder, "Jew" has the same meaning as in section 4B of the Law of Return, 5710-1950.
This section shall not derogate from a registration effected before its coming into force.

It does not appear to cut me out.

Blogger Tom Kratman January 13, 2015 1:40 PM  

The mistake you're making is in assuming that the law of return covers only Jews. It clearly does not; see "spouse or children" clause.

Blogger Tom Kratman January 13, 2015 1:44 PM  

Now it is important to have a definition of a jew, because spouse, child, grandchild, etc. all spring from a connection to that definition, but the definition does not mean, see mentioned clause, that the law only applies to those who are jews.

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 13, 2015 1:45 PM  

Vox,

If you converted to Judaism, particularly Orthodox Judaism, you'd probably be allowed. But as it stands, no. It doesn't really matter what the law is, the whole point of the law is to keep out Christians.

Now, it gets complicated because of intra-religious politics. Orthodox converts are allowed to immigrate if they converted under an approved branch of (Orthodox) Judaism that is approved by the (Orthodox) Chief Rabbinate of Israel.

Non-Orthodox converts are allowed to immigrate, but sometimes they are given a runaround for years depending on the religious affiliation of whoever happens to be the Minister of the Interior at a given time.

The details are something that are probably off-topic because it would take a long post to explain all of the political BS.

And Vox, I think it's unfair to say that Israel singles out Christians from making aliyah. It's just non-Jews in general -- Buddhists, Christians, whoever. Though, sadly, I've seen neighbors getting mail from some Israeli branch of Scientology. :(

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 13, 2015 1:48 PM  

Tom, I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not good at legal nitpicking -- but if you ever want to take on the Israeli Ministry of the Interior, you have my blessing. :)

OpenID cailcorishev January 13, 2015 1:53 PM  

Sam, why is it that atheism is acceptable while Rabbi B's beliefs are not?

You know how light is both a wave and a particle? That's what it reminds me of. Judaism is both a religion and an ethnicity -- sometimes one and sometimes the other (or both), depending on the circumstances. An atheist Jew is okay because it's not a religion; a Catholic Jew is not because it is.

Anonymous Stilicho January 13, 2015 1:54 PM  

Ummm...you did notice, Stil, that I do have right of return and came by it honestly?

Yep. That and a quarter will buy you...not even a cup of coffee. When has being right mattered to a legal interpretation?

The law will be interpreted to effect whatever policy drives it (or whatever goal is en vogue with the interpreters). Whether that policy is unknown (Sam Scott) or is meant to exclude Christians (Vox), it is fairly clear that it would be implemented in a fashion to keep you out.

But you're having fun with it, so there is that.

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 13, 2015 2:00 PM  

Judaism is both a religion and an ethnicity

I prefer to think of Judaism as a civilization that has both ethnic and religious dimensions. (I can't take credit for that quote, I heard it somewhere.)

One can be an ethnic Jew but not religious; one can be a religious Jew but not originally an ethnic one (via conversion). Converts are viewed as adopted members of the family.

Blogger Tom Kratman January 13, 2015 2:00 PM  

Actually, it will get me in if I wanted to go in. A related issue came up in 88 and 89, IIRC, where some Messianic Jews claimed they had never been Jews as recognized, but were in the children and grandchildren of jews category, and the Israeli Supreme Court seemed to buy that.

Blogger Tom Kratman January 13, 2015 2:02 PM  

I don't, by the way, want to go there. A friend of mine was stationed in Germany during the Cold War and used to visit East Germany from time to time. He was later stationed in Jordan, during this war, and visited Israel rather regularly. His observation of going to Israel was that it "felt like crossing the IGB into East Germany, and felt like East Germany while I was there."

OpenID cailcorishev January 13, 2015 2:20 PM  

One can be an ethnic Jew but not religious; one can be a religious Jew but not originally an ethnic one (via conversion).

Right. I didn't say it wasn't true. Light really is both wave and particle. But some people do seem to use that dual nature of Judaism to have things both ways quite often.

Blogger Rabbi B January 13, 2015 2:20 PM  

"Sam, why is it that atheism is acceptable while Rabbi B's beliefs are not?"

The short answer: Professing belief that a Galilean Jewish carpenter is the promised Messiah by default puts one into another religion i.e. Christianity in the minds of the religious and irreligious alike. The religious wield tremendous influence (as far as I understand) with monitoring conversions and determining who is acceptable for aliyah and who is not. They also have the ability to overturn conversions later if they want.

The Chabad for many years held that R' Menachem Schneerson was the promised Messiah, only to abandon that belief in recent years. This mistaken belief has not disqualified them for aliyah, since this belief did not place them in another religion, I suppose.

In most Orthodox circles, Y'shua is considered apikoros (a heretic) and consequently so is anyone who holds to the belief that He is the Messiah.

I am not sure what kind of a threat I pose to the State of Israel as a Torah-observant Jew, but it is what it is. It just means I have to get a little more creative in my approach, that's all.

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 13, 2015 2:23 PM  

But some people do seem to use that dual nature of Judaism to have things both ways quite often.

I wouldn't say it's out of a conscious desire to "have things both ways." It's just truly that fact that we Jews cannot even agree among ourselves on "what is a Jew." And that internal debate gets represented in conflicting ways in external discussions.

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 13, 2015 2:30 PM  

Everything Rabbi B just said is objectively accurate. I just want to add some other thoughts.

They also have the ability to overturn conversions later if they want.

That's a highly-charged issue. The Israeli Rabbinate has said in recent years that it has the authority to overturn conversions. However, there are credible arguments that such actions violate Jewish law spanning centuries -- the original idea is that from the moment of conversion, a person is a Jew. If that person becomes lax in his observance, then he just becomes a "bad" Jew akin to a born-Jew who doesn't follow the commandments.

The issue is that in recent decades, Judaism -- just like Christianity and Islam -- has lurched to the "right" (for various sociological, political, and other reasons) -- and the newfound ability to revoke conversions is one example of that.

Anonymous AlainS January 13, 2015 2:32 PM  

Maybe they are saying the same thing for different reasons. One group hates the Jews and are violently anti-Semitic, while the Israeli is respectful of Kews and only is offering Jews a safe haven.

Mon Dieu! Maybe this is why there is no confusion.

Anonymous AlainS January 13, 2015 2:38 PM  

"I also not that it is not "anti-semitic" to expel individuals who have demonstrated that they hold a higher allegiance to a foreign power."

And when you drag a Jew in front of your kangaroo court, how will you demonstrate they hold a higher allegiance to Israel? Because if you can't, and send them away from their home, you are simply evil.

Anonymous VD January 13, 2015 3:37 PM  

And when you drag a Jew in front of your kangaroo court, how will you demonstrate they hold a higher allegiance to Israel?

Tell them they get to keep one passport and one citizenship. Then let them choose. Outlawing dual citizenship will clarify matters considerably.

OpenID cailcorishev January 13, 2015 4:00 PM  

And when you drag a Jew in front of your kangaroo court, how will you demonstrate they hold a higher allegiance to Israel?

Apparently, checking his will to see where he plans to be buried would be a good start.

Anonymous Samuel Scott January 13, 2015 4:07 PM  

Apparently, checking his will to see where he plans to be buried would be a good start.

That's not a logical line of questioning. You want to go down that road? OK, do this:

1. List every French Jew who has died in the past year
2. Determine where he or she is buried

Do that and get the percentage, then we can talk. A few high-profile burials in Israel perhaps out of symbolic reasons due to the cause of death is meaningless.

Anonymous clk January 13, 2015 4:31 PM  

"...That's flat-out wrong. Yes, there are serious security issues here. But I meet many young, twentysomething American and European Jews who come here as tourists or students and want to stay because of the economy"

Ah so you live in Israel Sam (y/n ?) ....serious secuirty concerns ? I guess being surrounded by enemies on all sides and some of them potentially having nuclear weapons and a stated policy to wipe you off the earth might be a security issue. I have a few 20y's myself .. they dont always make good decisions either...but its no accident that the second largest population of jews is in Bronx NY... obviously better baseball teams. :)

I am not doubting the resolve of the Israeli people ... all are very brave by all accounts ... but its in tough neighborhood...and when people recommend that all the jews go to israel I cant help thinking that there might be alternative motives at play.

Peace.

OpenID cailcorishev January 13, 2015 4:46 PM  

That's not a logical line of questioning.

It wasn't intended to be; I thought it was obvious hyperbole. Point is, the "it's impossible to figure out where people's allegiances lie" argument is false. It may not be possible in every case with 100% accuracy, but it certainly is possible much of the time, and in many cases it would be downright easy.

I'm not saying tribunals questioning people about their allegiances is something I look forward to. But it can be done, and probably will be done, if people exhibiting foreign allegiances insist on sticking around in nations that are fed up with that sort of thing -- whether or not they were the cause of the fed-up-ness.

Anonymous Alexander January 13, 2015 4:56 PM  

There are many avenues that can and probably will be explored.

Start with the easy: do you have two passports? Do you belong to any organizations that explicitly support a foreign country? Do you have troublesome family members and we'd rather be done with the lot of you?

And if that doesn't cull to the levels of precision generally appreciated by a northern European (I suspect the south will be a lot more lackadaisical about bothering to distinguish, fwiw) then we get into wills, into cash flows, into things your neighbor heard you say...

Not good, but certainly possibly, precedented, and predictable.

Anonymous AlainS January 13, 2015 5:02 PM  

"and probably will be done, if people exhibiting foreign allegiances insist on sticking around in nations that are fed up with that sort of thing -- whether or not they were the cause of the fed-up-ness."

If someone has plans to be buried in Israel, yet chooses to live their life as a Frenchman, that's is proof of one thing: he chooses to live his life in France.

And on this passport, will it only be Jews and Muslims who may not hold duel passports? What about a person who is 40% jewish?

Fucking idiots. And you all wonder why your hopes and plans to hurt people you hate never come to fruition.

Anonymous VD January 13, 2015 5:19 PM  

If someone has plans to be buried in Israel, yet chooses to live their life as a Frenchman, that's is proof of one thing: he chooses to live his life in France.

That's the point. He's not living his life as a Frenchman any more than a soldier of the Wehrmacht was back in 1942.

And on this passport, will it only be Jews and Muslims who may not hold duel passports? What about a person who is 40% jewish?

What part of "outlawing dual passports" was hard for you to understand? That's not an extreme position, that has been the default for most of the history of passports. Merely vowing allegiance to a new country was sufficient to void your previous citizenship.

Fucking idiots. And you all wonder why your hopes and plans to hurt people you hate never come to fruition.

You're the only idiot here, Alain. If Americans had any desire to wipe Jews off the planet, they could do it in an afternoon. Do the math, for crying out loud.

Anonymous The Lion January 13, 2015 5:28 PM  

What part of "outlawing dual passports" was hard for you to understand?

The part where you didn't conform to his preconceived notion that you just want to hurt the brown people because you're a white supremacist.

Anonymous rienzi January 13, 2015 6:08 PM  

And when you drag a Jew in front of your kangaroo court, how will you demonstrate they hold a higher allegiance to Israel?

VD: Tell them they get to keep one passport and one citizenship. Then let them choose. Outlawing dual citizenship will clarify matters considerably.


Vox is correct. I am truly disliked by my Jewish in-laws for positing this thought experiment: You have been abducted by Darth Vader, and he presents you with two buttons, and tells you you must press one. Button one evaporates every living thing in Israel, button two the USA. Press neither, and both countries are toast. Which one do you press? Its most effective when one of my wife's cousins gives out with a pompous: "How dare you question my patriotism!"

On another note, if Tom Kratman is correct, I, a Lutheran since birth, can get into Israel, as can both of my children, Lutherans since birth, their spouses, Lutheran and Methodist, as well as my two grandsons, baptized into the Church of Norway, as well as whoever they should choose to marry. We all look like SS recruiting posters. Who would have ever believed that the Israelis could be that generous? :-) I'm not holding my breath. Emanations and Penumbras you know.

Anonymous zen0 January 13, 2015 6:40 PM  

@ Rabbi B I am not sure what kind of a threat I pose to the State of Israel as a Torah-observant Jew, but it is what it is. It just means I have to get a little more creative in my approach, that's all.

It seems like things are not so bad in Israel for Messianics.
From a year ago: Messianic Jews have won another battle for recognition in Israel. This time a special judicial tribunal has determined that a Messianic congregation in Jerusalem should receive the same full tax exemption as a synagogue.

AND , reported at the Jewish Israel site here


"Now there are an estimated 150 Jewish [messianic] congregations around Israel meeting in different languages. The number of believers is estimated to be around 20,000, growing exponentially from 1948 when 12 Jews who believed in Jesus could be counted, to 1987 when there were 3,000 and 1997 where there were 5,000."

Baptist Press, May 26, 2011

Anonymous zen0 January 13, 2015 6:42 PM  

And when you drag a Jew in front of your kangaroo court, how will you demonstrate they hold a higher allegiance to Israel?

Oy gevalt, stop the drama already. Just do it when they have to renew the passport.

Anonymous Aliyah to Khazaria January 13, 2015 7:19 PM  

Come now folks, this argument about dual citizenship will never result in any sort of real change until the United States of American-Zion is on the brink of total societal collapse.

That's why our Zionist Occupied Government has spent decades preparing the FEMA camps in all 50 States and enacting all those Presidential Executive Orders regarding the suspension of the Constitution and the implementation of martial law. If the mass of Americans truly become aware of the full scope of Zionist Occupation of our Government (not likely to happen due to the Zionist occupation of the mass media and educational institutions effected to takeover the Government in the first place,) the N(J)ew World Order will come out in full view and proceed to openly stomp its jackboot on the face of the goyim forever.

USA is Zion's bitch, and nothing is done by the US without the approval of Israel.

Besides, if we really want to get into the whole "right of return" issue, let's just call a spade a spade: all the Ashkenazi - Khazars (the majority of worldwide Jewry today) should be clamoring to return to their long-lost kingdom in the Ukraine, not that G-d forsaken, occupied hellhole in the Middle East.

Anonymous nil January 13, 2015 8:09 PM  

i don't see the wisdom in moving to israel to avoid muslim violence. if this shit starts in the u.s., i'll buy a gun and get a concealed carry permit

Blogger Latigo3 January 13, 2015 10:12 PM  

I have had plenty of conversations with several of my Israeli and Jewish friends this past week, and they all say the same thing, "we love this country, why would we want to go back"?

Anonymous zen0 January 13, 2015 11:12 PM  

> I have had plenty of conversations with several of my Israeli and Jewish friends this past week, and they all say the same thing, "we love this country, why would we want to go back"?

There are a few times I have asked a rhetorical question like that in my life, and almost on cue, the universe imposed a dialectical answer upon me.

I avoid that kind of thing now like the plague.

Anonymous Discard January 13, 2015 11:17 PM  

You don't need to drag anybody in front of a kangaroo court to determine their true loyalty today. Among Whites, only patriots need to conceal their true identities. Anti-Whites, man-haters, Reds, name your deviance, have all been openly declaring their true faith online for decades now. They've done the sorting for us.

Anonymous Jack Amok January 13, 2015 11:57 PM  

No I'm not. We already are clannish and have fully accepted it. Just look around at the various clubs, organizations, rallies, parades, magazines, television channels and the like completely dedicated to particular cultural clans.

They're everywhere among the non-anglo cultures. I suppose I wasn't clear about who I mean by "we" when I said we don't like clannish behavior, but I mean the folks who consider themselves cultural descendants of the founders.

Blogger Tom Kratman January 14, 2015 12:18 AM  

rienzi, until Israel changes the law, presuming you've got that Jewish parent, yes, you can and yes, your, kids and their spouses can. If, on the other hand, it was your grandparent, then I do not read it as covering his or her great-grandchildren.

Anonymous AlainS January 14, 2015 12:25 AM  

"That's the point. He's not living his life as a Frenchman any more than a soldier of the Wehrmacht was back in 1942."

Of course he is living his life as a francais. We know this because he was born in France and has been a francais all his life, he has also been Jewish. Whether he wants to be buried in France, Israel or Spain says nothing about his life as a Frenchman.

"You're the only idiot here, Alain. If Americans had any desire to wipe Jews off the planet, they could do it in an afternoon. Do the math, for crying out loud."

The Americain and European jew haters that do want to wipe the jews off the planet are part of a diminishing but vicious and deviant minority. They rarely touch jews because they know the consequences and because they are cowards.

Jews have long been an integral part of France and the French culture. They were among the most effective and dedicated members of the resistance and they have added immeasurably to French culture...and they have celebrated that because they are French, but jewish. Just like other are French, but Christian.

Sell your desires to see harm done to someone else.

Blogger Jew613 January 14, 2015 1:20 AM  

Jews are not an integral part of France. Jews will always be strangers everywhere but our one homeland, Eretz Yisrael. The French government wants the Jews to stay as part of their desire to keep the multi-cult going. But as Muslim violence keeps escalating the Jewish exodus will hasten.

And warning about disaster is not the same as wanting it to happen.

The Messianics are indeed growing, and becoming a serious problem. Though how many of them are actually Jewish is highly questionable. The Israeli government has been tolerant of them so far. Mostly because they like evangelical support. As the Jewish population becomes more observant and Christian/American support weakens, I expect that to change.

Blogger Shimshon January 14, 2015 4:44 AM  

First, I would emphasize that I address "Rabbi B" as such because that is the moniker he has chosen for himself. I think it is rather manipulative, as virtually every Jew, no matter how secular, would, at the very least, bristle at referring to him with such a title. I don't recognize him as a rabbi in any way. But referring to him in a mocking manner, such as "Rabbit B" (or even "Rabbi" B) seems childish and inappropriate, regardless of my personal feelings. So "Rabbi B" it is.

In Vox's parlance, you could say that Jews who believe in the divinity (or any other exalted form) of Jesus have dual loyalties (to G-d and Jesus) and thus are denied citizenship in our state. As a born Jew, even if you claim not to ascribe divinity to Jesus, the vast majority of the world's Christians do, and thus is assumed to be a mere tactic.

"The Chabad for many years held that R' Menachem Schneerson was the promised Messiah, only to abandon that belief in recent years. This mistaken belief has not disqualified them for aliyah, since this belief did not place them in another religion, I suppose."

While Rabbi B is unfortunately correct that a great many Chabadniks ascribe messianic status to their dead rebbe, to this day (it has not been abandoned at all), and it is a major source of strife between Chabad in general and the rest of the Orthodox world, I don't believe it was ever official Chabad policy to that effect. Even if or when the leaders of the movement are themselves Moshichists. The reason for them not being illegible for the Law of Return, according to my definition, is that they have not ascribed actual divinity to him (yet).

Anonymous VD January 14, 2015 5:10 AM  

Of course he is living his life as a francais. We know this because he was born in France and has been a francais all his life, he has also been Jewish.

Then he is not francais. In claiming he is francais, you are denying his Jewish identity, which makes you an anti-Semite. Why do you hate Jews?

In Vox's parlance, you could say that Jews who believe in the divinity (or any other exalted form) of Jesus have dual loyalties (to G-d and Jesus) and thus are denied citizenship in our state.

Oh, the irony....

I would emphasize that I address "Rabbi B" as such because that is the moniker he has chosen for himself.

And that is the correct way to do things here. Well done.

Blogger Shimshon January 14, 2015 7:30 AM  

Vox, thanks.

I would also like to add that most people I know who comment on blogs like this, would not state their name as such. An occasional commenter here, and neighbor and good friend of mine is an ordained rabbi and refrains from such. More significantly, a great many of my neighbors are ordained rabbis. It is surprisingly common in the charedi world (which numbers somewhat close to 10% of the Israeli population). One of my neighbors is the cheif rabbi of one of the Baltics. Him, and a few others, I might refer to as "Reb," which is a more friendly and casual form of address than "Rabbi." But everyone else is on a first name basis, except for the community Rav. I myself am not ordained in any way. Their students call them "Rabbi So-and-So". We are not Rabbi B's students. We are his peers. I fail to understand why I or anyone should be compelled to address him as such.

OpenID cailcorishev January 14, 2015 8:54 AM  

I have had plenty of conversations with several of my Israeli and Jewish friends this past week, and they all say the same thing, "we love this country, why would we want to go back"?

If I had a Jewish friend who said that, and I thought he meant it, I would suggest to him that he take a good look at whether his behavior reflects it. Does he have two passports, and if so, how would people know his loyalty lies with one over the other? Does he spend more time reading Israeli news than that of his home country/state/town? Does he refer to his Jewishness often, even in what he intends as humorous, self-deprecating ways?

Back when people tried to assimilate, they changed their names and clothes and learned the local lingo and did their best to make sure they didn't stand out as different. I'm not saying he should have to walk around in fear of doing something "Jew-like" and being pointed out like that guy in Invasion of the Body Snatchers. But he can avoid pushing his "otherness" in people's faces, and make sure his behavior reflects a desire to be American -- not Something-American, but just American.

Anonymous The Lion January 14, 2015 9:18 AM  

I fail to understand why I or anyone should be compelled to address him as such.

You're not compelled by anything other than your own sense of courtesy, in calling him according to the screen name he has picked. Since you don't know him, the name doesn't mean anything more than "a particular person on a website who is otherwise unknown".

If my screen name was General Lion, for example, no one would expect you to salute as you hit Publish.

Anonymous VD January 14, 2015 9:19 AM  

We are not Rabbi B's students. We are his peers. I fail to understand why I or anyone should be compelled to address him as such.

Because a) it is polite, and b) a simple blog identity is not an actual title. I tend to doubt you would have a problem calling someone General Macho because you are not a soldier in an army he commands and you don't think he is a paragon of masculinity. Chill out. No one is going to think you are acknowledging his Hebrew spiritual authority because you call him Rabbi B. I call him that and I certainly don't either.

Blogger Shimshon January 14, 2015 9:32 AM  

Duly chilled out.

Blogger Rabbi B January 14, 2015 9:51 AM  

"We are not Rabbi B's students. We are his peers. I fail to understand why I or anyone should be compelled to address him as such."

As has been said, it's just a moniker and I don't claim to be anybody's rabbi or teacher here at VP. You addressing me by the moniker I have chosen doesn't make me your rabbi or teacher any more than calling me 'Mayor' makes me your mayor or calling me 'doctor' makes me your doctor.

Admittedly, in the somewhat anonymous context of the internet, it's a moniker that I think creates some opportunities here at VP and I would like to view myself as a resource of sorts in hopes of offering a perspective that is substantive and meaningful. There are Jews and Christians and non-believers lurking here. Most Jews, like yourself, will not recognize my credentials and most Christians complain that I am 'too Jewish' and wonder why I continue to live 'under the law' and hold to Jewish tradition, etc. The moniker reveals to folks a little bit more about me similar to @Jew613, a moniker which tells me he is probably a Torah-observant Jew.

I think, as VD indicated, that it says a great deal about yourself that you would not mock the moniker even though you don't recognize the title as legitimate. I think it's quite commendable. Even if you did, I would understand and not make an issue out of it. Titles are not unimportant, but I hope my identity is not wrapped up in a title either. I think my moniker perhaps presents a paradigm for both sides of the aisle that neither has considered before, a paradigm that challenges preconceived notions and misunderstandings.

I have become very good friends with the local Chabad rabbi here and he does not recognize my credentials and will never address me as rabbi and I completely understand and I really don't care. I address him and many other rabbis as 'Rabbi' even if they are my colleagues and not my rabbi or teacher, simply because that is a title which reflects their vocation. We have a wonderful friendship and share a tremendous amount of mutual respect for one another.

I don't think anyone addressing a 'Pastor B' would claim that he is their personal pastor, but would simply be recognizing a man's vocation in life. Anyway, I appreciate the candor and the comment very much and my respect for you has only increased as a result.

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