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Tuesday, February 10, 2015

Of course they folded

The EU has never been anything except one giant bluff coupled with constant appeals to Ragnarok:
Did Europe just fold?

Moments ago Bloomberg blasted a headline which has to be validated by other members of the European Commission as well as Merkel and the other Germans (and may well be refuted, considering this is Europe), which said that:

    COMMISSION TO PROPOSE 6 MONTH EXTENSION FOR GREECE - SOURCES.

So did Greece just win the first round of its stand off with Brussels? It remains to be confirmed, but congratulations to Greece if indeed it caused Merkel and the ECB to fold.
Once Greece leaves, the EU is a walking corpse. So they will do absolutely anything that will be less immediately destructive than a nation leaving the Euro, or more significantly, the EU.

Labels:

84 Comments:

Anonymous John Regan February 10, 2015 8:33 AM  

Terribly gratifying. Greece leading the west out of barbarism again. Financial barbarism this time.

Blogger Josh February 10, 2015 8:35 AM  

Spain and Italy just thought, "wait, saying no was am option?"

Anonymous Roundtine February 10, 2015 8:47 AM  

Congratulations Podemos!

Anonymous Musashi February 10, 2015 8:52 AM  

The dissolution of the EU is inevitable.

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus February 10, 2015 8:55 AM  

Once Greek leaves, the EU is a walking corpse

And if there's anything all those zombie movies and TV shows has taught us, it's what you do with walking corpses...

Blogger Shibes Meadow February 10, 2015 8:58 AM  

"The Belgians? We all knew they'd waffle." -- Dennis Miller

Anonymous Stilicho February 10, 2015 9:00 AM  

Spain and Italy just thought, "wait, saying no was am option?"

The Eurocrats just thought "We can't risk any more elections...we can't even trust other socialists anymore"

Anonymous Bah February 10, 2015 9:12 AM  

Terribly gratifying. Greece leading the west out of barbarism again. Financial barbarism this time.

Running up debts you know you can never repay, and then refusing to pay, is also barbaric.

Anonymous Ha February 10, 2015 9:13 AM  

I was highly amused that Greece said Germany owed them $236 billion in WW2 reparations. What's Greek for "chutzpah"?

Anonymous Alexander February 10, 2015 9:15 AM  

Indeed. Let us not confuse this with civilization marching forward. This is a small barbarian causing fraction in a larger barbarian's camp. Still something to applaud, but hardly the light at the end of the tunnel.

Blogger The Deuce February 10, 2015 9:23 AM  

Would be nice if Greece were like, "Nah, we don't need 6 months to decide to leave. Αντίο!"

Blogger Salt February 10, 2015 9:32 AM  

A 6 months extension. Added time for Greece to get it right. How magnanimous.

Blogger Josh February 10, 2015 9:36 AM  

The Eurocrats just thought "We can't risk any more elections...we can't even trust other socialists anymore"

Crap, you mean they actually believe this socialism stuff and aren't just using it as cover for kleptocracy?

Anonymous DJF February 10, 2015 9:42 AM  

I wonder how much the Greeks ability to threaten to vote down on various EU and NATO projects effected this?

Anonymous Anubis February 10, 2015 9:42 AM  

"Running up debts you know you can never repay, and then refusing to pay, is also barbaric."

Blame the tribe that enriches themselves and throws out crumbs to the low IQ willing to vote for more free stuff. When Iceland repudiated the bankers debt, & held bankers accountable they did well for themselves. Greece leaves the EU, the EU falls apart, everyone discovers borders, & the third world scum in europe gets deported/impaled. If Myanmar is willing to send moslems to camps I am pretty sure we can sell the idea to Europe.

Blogger Salt February 10, 2015 9:42 AM  

At ZH -

"Having achieved only modest gains in risk assets from the 'rumored' six-month-extension trial balloon for Greece, it appears European leaders are standing in line to refute the fact that they "folded" and talk back the non-bailout bailout."

[where's my popcorn]

Anonymous Stilicho February 10, 2015 9:55 AM  

Crap, you mean they actually believe this socialism stuff and aren't just using it as cover for kleptocracy?

No one with an IQ above room temperature actually "believes" in socialism, but socialists all believe very strongly in the spoils they can acquire from such a system.

Anonymous Alexander February 10, 2015 9:59 AM  

"Running up debts you know you can never repay, and then refusing to pay, is also barbaric."

While true - let's not pretend that the end game wasn't for Germany and France to make the rest of the continent economically dependent on them. It's gratifying that one of the little guys ended up being better at their own game of thievery.

This is like the bankers bitching that Switzerland didn't give them a heads up so that they too could turn a profit on the rubes.

Anonymous zen0 February 10, 2015 10:03 AM  

Varoufakis's Proposal (4.0) published in 2013

5. CONCLUSION: Four realistic policies to replace of five false
choices
Three years of crisis have culminated in a Europe that has lost legitimacy with its
own citizens and credibility with the rest of the world. Europe is unnecessarily
back in recession. While the bond markets were placated by the ECB’s actions in
the summer of 2012, the Eurozone remains on the road toward disintegration.
While this process eats away at Europe’s potential for shared prosperity,
European governments are imprisoned by false choices:
• between stability and growth
• between austerity and stimulus
• between the deadly embrace of insolvent banks by insolvent governments, and
an admirable but undefined and indefinitely delayed Banking Union
• between the principle of perfectly separable country debts and the supposed
need to persuade the surplus countries to bankroll the rest
• between national sovereignty and federalism.
These falsely dyadic choices imprison thinking and immobilise governments.
They are responsible for a legitimation crisis for the European project. And they
risk a catastrophic human, social and democratic crisis in Europe.
By contrast the Modest Proposal counters that:
• The real choice is between beggar-my-neighbour deflation and an investmentled
recovery combined with social stabilisation. The investment recovery will be
funded by global capital, supplied principally by sovereign wealth funds and by
pension funds which are seeking long-term investment outlets. Social
stabilisation can be funded, initially, through the Target2 payments scheme.
• Taxpayers in Germany and the other surplus nations do not need to bankroll
the 2020 European Economic Recovery Programme, the restructuring of
sovereign debt, resolution of the banking crisis, or the emergency humanitarian
programme so urgently needed in the European periphery.
• Neither an expansionary monetary policy nor a fiscal stimulus in Germany and
other surplus countries, though welcome, would be sufficient to bring recovery
to Europe.
• Treaty changes for a federal union may be aspired by some, but will take too
long , are opposed by many, and are not needed to resolve the crisis now.
On this basis the Modest Proposal’s four policies are feasible steps by which to
deal decisively with Europe’s banking crisis, the debt crisis, underinvestment,
unemployment as well as the human, social and political emergency.
Version 4.0 of the Modest Proposal offers immediate answers to questions about
the credibility of the ECB’s OMT policy, the impasse on a Banking Union,
financing of SMEs through EIF bonds enabling a European Venture Capital
Fund, green energy and high tech start-ups in Europe’s periphery, and basic
human needs that the crisis has left untended.
It is not known how many strokes Alexander the Great needed to cut the Gordian
knot. But in four strokes, Europe could cut through the knot of debt and deficits in
which it has bound itself.

Blogger Josh February 10, 2015 10:07 AM  

No one with an IQ above room temperature actually "believes" in socialism, but socialists all believe very strongly in the spoils they can acquire from such a system.

The only edit I would make is "no one above thirty"

Blogger bob k. mando February 10, 2015 10:09 AM  

Bill Whittle just allowed himself to get co-opted.

https://www.billwhittle.com/singularity/are-video-gamers-sexist-bigots

notice how this was done.

Bill failed to do any prep work on his own and instead relied upon a woman ( who wears a low cut dress while complaining about men commenting on her cleavage ) and a queer to inform him what Gamergate was about INSTEAD OF doing his own research.

this is Pournelle's Law in action.

Blogger Josh February 10, 2015 10:14 AM  

Running up debts you know you can never repay, and then refusing to pay, is also barbaric.

Please explain what Greece should do, then.

Anonymous dh February 10, 2015 10:18 AM  

The only edit I would make is "no one above thirty"

This is laughable. There are billions of true believers in socialism. Billions. There is a thin and cynical layer of those who are crassy exploitative, but the only reason why socialism is still a living ideology are the true believers.

Anonymous Stilicho February 10, 2015 10:24 AM  

The only edit I would make is "no one above thirty"

Change it to "no one with any meaningful experience and an IQ above room temperature" and I would agree to the edit. I still suspect that the edit is unnecessary and that, if you drilled down to the essential core of ANY belief in socialism, it would be revealed as one nothing more than "it will work to MY advantage." Whether that advantage is power, wealth, prestige, acceptance, etc. it is always a matter of seeking advantage. What else could it be when its primary stated purpose is to facilitate one group (proles) gaining advantage over everyone else?

Anonymous Bah February 10, 2015 10:28 AM  

While true - let's not pretend that the end game wasn't for Germany and France to make the rest of the continent economically dependent on them.

The continent was already economically dependent on them.

Please explain what Greece should do, then.

Quit borrowing money. Quit spending money. Live within their means.

Anonymous Stilicho February 10, 2015 10:31 AM  

This is laughable. There are billions of true believers in socialism. Billions.

MPAI. So what. As for those who aren't... they truly believe that socialism will provide them with spoils.

here is a thin and cynical layer of those who are crassy exploitative

and you'd have gotten away with it if it weren't for those darned kids! Or if the right people had been in charge...

Blogger Josh February 10, 2015 10:34 AM  

Quit borrowing money. Quit spending money. Live within their means.

Wouldn't it be easier to do so by defaulting on their debts?

Sometimes bankruptcy truly is the best option, whether it's a person, business, or government.

Anonymous Porky February 10, 2015 10:34 AM  

Nothing says success like MOAR DEBT!!!

Anonymous Porky February 10, 2015 10:37 AM  

There are billions of true believers in socialism. Billions.

Beginning with about 3.5 billion women.

OpenID taqiyyologist February 10, 2015 10:39 AM  

bob, I just had to stop watching halfway through, when I watched that yesterday. It was too painful.

I like Whittle and Klavan, too. Just wish they'd done a little homework, first.

Anonymous dh February 10, 2015 10:45 AM  

Stilicho--

There is a difference between acknowledging that something is popular and something is beneficial and/or good. Saying that no one believes in socialism, when it's the #1 or #2 worldwide ideology is some sort of exercise in delusion.

My point about the thin layer is that there clearly people who say they believe in socialism, but in fact are not believers, they simply are using it as a tool to extract benefits and wealth. These are people who are just crassly exploiting others faith in socialism. They are directly related to the wolves in sheep clothing who are televangelists and charismatic preachers.

The rest of the billions of believers in socialism - obviously we can argue about their motives, their beliefs, and whether or not they idiots, but it seems to sort of pedantic and silly to pretend they don't exist.

There is a good point built into the comment about age 30, which is if the world looked the same to people at 40 as it did at 20, there really would be even more socialists out there.

Anonymous Stilicho February 10, 2015 10:52 AM  

Saying that no one believes in socialism, when it's the #1 or #2 worldwide ideology is some sort of exercise in delusion.

I don't dispute its popularity.

it seems to sort of pedantic and silly to pretend they don't exist.

I don't dispute their existence.

obviously we can argue about their motives, their beliefs, and whether or not they idiots

Obviously.

They are directly related to the wolves in sheep clothing who are televangelists and charismatic preachers.

Socialism /= Christianity. No matter how much you want to rob your neighbors and feel self-righteous about it.

Blogger Joshua Dyal February 10, 2015 10:53 AM  

his is laughable. There are billions of true believers in socialism. Billions. There is a thin and cynical layer of those who are crassy exploitative, but the only reason why socialism is still a living ideology are the true believers.

You haven't explained how that's incompatible with the notion that nobody with an IQ of over room temperature believes socialism actually works for anything other than facilitating kleptocracy. I think you think you're refuting Stilicho's statement, but you're not because those are hardly mutually incompatible statements.

Blogger CarpeOro February 10, 2015 11:04 AM  

Drop the word socialism from the discussion. Besides MPAI, most people think that the world owes them something. Health care, a liveable wage, housing, food, entertainment, the list goes on. The Greeks are just moving on to the next point in the decivilization process. They have been milking the system since they joined the EU. The EU con-artists thought they could game the Greeks, but forget the Greeks have been better at it since Troy. If the Greeks call their bluff, worse than the money it will destroy the last vestiges of any positive connotations associated with the EU. The sooner the better.

Anonymous cheddarman February 10, 2015 11:09 AM  

I am wondering what the end game is for the Greeks. IMO, i think they just want the old debts written off so that they can borrow more money and keep their welfare state solvent for a few more years.

Blogger RandalThorn February 10, 2015 11:11 AM  

I don't think Greece will leave the euro, not kicked out as long as it is beneficial for EU and euro to have us around that is.

However I do would love to see the EUzi state getting dissolved into the nothingness it came out from.

Either case, it will be difficult times for us Greeks.
Anyhow, it is what it is.

Anonymous Stilicho February 10, 2015 11:12 AM  

IMO, i think they just want the old debts written off so that they can borrow more money and keep their welfare state solvent for a few more years.

It's not just your opinion, it's the actual Syriza party platform you posted here last week.

Anonymous Alexander February 10, 2015 11:13 AM  

The end game for the Greeks is the expulsion of foreigners and a return to a low-technology, agrarian society once they've totally busted themselves.

To get to that point, they have to 1) keep the money flowing as long as possible, because gimme, and 2) keep the game going long enough that Northern Europe has it's own immigrant shitstorm blowing out of control so they can't just go and straight up invade Greece, gunboat diplomacy style.

Blogger YIH February 10, 2015 11:13 AM  

Josh:
Wouldn't it be easier to do so by defaulting on their debts?
That's likely what a 'grexit' would mean and if they do exit it's 'katie bar the door' who'd be next? (Portugal? Italy?) Iceland has already told the EUSSR to stuff it.

Blogger bob k. mando February 10, 2015 11:19 AM  

dh February 10, 2015 10:45 AM
Saying that no one believes in socialism, when it's the #1 or #2 worldwide ideology is some sort of exercise in delusion.



SAYING you believe in something and, you know, actually believing in that thing WITHOUT ulterior motives are two different things.

as i've pointed out before, many confidence games pivot on the concept of convincing the Sucker that he is actually one of the 'informed' who is getting over on someone else.

consider the Nigerian Prince email scam or every Pyramid scheme.

no one thinks they are getting millions of dollars paid out for a few tens of thousands put in LEGITIMATELY. they think they're getting over on those podunk, sub-Saharan Negroes.

the thought has just occurred to me:
Marxism is a Confidence Game as political ideology.

surely, someone has thought of this before?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confidence_trick#Stages_of_the_con
"Confidence tricks exploit typical human characteristics such as greed, dishonesty, vanity, opportunism, lust, compassion, credulity, irresponsibility, desperation, and naïvety. As such, there is no consistent profile of a confidence trick victim; the common factor is simply that the victim relies on the good faith of the con artist."

note how closely Sarkeesian, and most other SJWs, follow this script.

SJWs rely on the GOOD FAITH of Sarkeesian, Quinn, Obama, et al.

but the promised results never materialize ... strange, that.



taqiyyologist February 10, 2015 10:39 AM
bob, I just had to stop watching halfway through



i got about 3/4.

the only refutation needed for the bimbo gamer and the fag is the fact of the coordinated 'Gamers Are Dead' articles, released over a three day period.

once you start looking deeper than that, almost every statement those two made shreds like wet toilet paper.

Klavan and Whittle really embarrassed themselves there.

Anonymous Stilicho February 10, 2015 11:39 AM  

Among other things, this whole EU fiasco is another variation on the tragedy of the commons. Call it the "tragedy of the common currency".

Blogger Josh February 10, 2015 11:44 AM  

Call it the "tragedy of the common currency".

Oh that is beautiful

Anonymous Viidad February 10, 2015 11:56 AM  

Whittle always struck me as a typical conservative shill unable to see the big picture thanks to his 4 legs good/2 legs bad ideology.

Conservatives will believe almost any shit a woman tells them.

Blogger James Dixon February 10, 2015 11:59 AM  

> Running up debts you know you can never repay, and then refusing to pay, is also barbaric.

Then why has almost every current government done so?

> Quit borrowing money. Quit spending money. Live within their means.

They can't quit spending money and live within their means and still pay the debts.

Anonymous Stilicho February 10, 2015 12:04 PM  

constant appeals to Ragnarok

Are we seeing Währungendämmerung?

Anonymous Bah February 10, 2015 12:13 PM  

Then why has almost every current government done so?

Because they are anti-civilizational, destructive Leftists.

They can't quit spending money and live within their means and still pay the debts.

Yes, they can. They just don't want to.

Anonymous clk February 10, 2015 12:19 PM  

""Confidence tricks exploit typical human characteristics such as greed, dishonesty, vanity, opportunism, lust, compassion, credulity, irresponsibility, desperation, and naïvety. As such, there is no consistent profile of a confidence trick victim; the common factor is simply that the victim relies on the good faith of the con artist."


To be the devils advocate here ... this actually describes capitalism equally if not better, than socilaism.


"Socialism /= Christianity"

But Christian (especailly Catholic) social justice has many of the same ideas as Socialism .. this may mean nothing more that no matter what type of con man your are there a certain cons that work universally and these are employed by grifter , theologan and politicain alike.

Blogger bob k. mando February 10, 2015 12:24 PM  

Viidad February 10, 2015 11:56 AM
Conservatives will believe almost any shit a woman tells them.



oh, he's definitely Blue Pill and agnostic. and is therefore prone to both White Knighting and making excuses for queers.

but he has previously done some exemplary work.

Anonymous cheddarman February 10, 2015 12:40 PM  

It's not just your opinion, it's the actual Syriza party platform you posted here last week. - Stilicho

Agreed. However, we all know how often political parties follow their platforms that call for things like balancing the government budget and eliminating wasteful spending programs; as politicians are for the most part dirty lying whores, they want to keep the party going with someone else' money as long as possible.

If the Greeks do exit the Euro, they will eventually have to downsize their welfare state. Color me skeptical, but I don't see the Greeks giving up on socialism any time soon. So, what options do they have?

1) Throw a tantrum, negotiate some debt "relief" and borrow more money to keep the party going for a bit longer.
2) Leave the Euro while buddying up to Russia. Perhaps Russia will show up with generous check in hand, and keep the party going for a little while, especially if it allows them to break up the European union. Russia should have more leverage in dealing with individual European countries. Russia also gets a natural pipeline through Turkey and Greece.
3) Sell sell their meager possessions at a garage sale, and move into Stilicho's basement. The party would end and the tough love boot camp would begin, so i am not betting on this one.

They could really reap a windfall if they threaten option 2. I am assuming that the U.S. would rather deal with an EU instead of 20+ independent European governments that are at least nominally accountable to their people, so the U.S. may buy in to a Greek bailout as well.

sincerely

cheddarman

Blogger Josh February 10, 2015 12:42 PM  

Bill Whittle is a moron

Blogger IM2L844 February 10, 2015 12:52 PM  

But Christian (especailly Catholic) social justice has many of the same ideas as Socialism .. this may mean nothing more that no matter what type of con man your are there a certain cons that work universally and these are employed by grifter , theologan and politicain alike.

I think the difference is in the compelling force that effects compulsory compliance. Ego, conscience or fear.

Anonymous vevets February 10, 2015 12:59 PM  

"living within their means"=austerity=untenable =throw the govt. out and put a new one in place so they will continue the welfare state.
It simply won't happen until it is the only option, and even then the people are just chum easily manipulated by the ruler of this world. The people willstill seek a king who will make their suffering go away.

Blogger Marissa February 10, 2015 1:05 PM  

I was highly amused that Greece said Germany owed them $236 billion in WW2 reparations. What's Greek for "chutzpah"?

Germany only finished paying off its WW1 debt a few years ago.

Anonymous John Regan February 10, 2015 1:15 PM  

@Bah:

>>Running up debts you know you can never repay, and then refusing to pay, is also barbaric.<<

That would make the US government the most barbaric government in history. Closely followed by just about every other modern government.

If they ran up debts they could never repay, how is it even intelligible to maintain that they are "refusing" to pay?

If not paying debts that cannot be paid anyway is "barbaric", why have civilized nations had some form of debt relief or bankruptcy established by law?

You're confused.

Anonymous Stilicho February 10, 2015 1:19 PM  

so the U.S. may buy in to a Greek bailout as well.

What do you think the Federal Reserve is for?

Anonymous dh February 10, 2015 1:29 PM  

bob--

I agree that people smart enough to understand how the world works know socialism can't really be a model that fully represents the working of the world. It can only work over time with force, theft, or some combination of both.

But you have to realize that half of everyone is below average, and a good chunk of those substantially so.

Anonymous Porky February 10, 2015 1:35 PM  

the U.S. may buy in to a Greek bailout as well.

It's like a bidding war for an ugly dog with rabies, parvo and fleas.

Blogger CarpeOro February 10, 2015 1:39 PM  

"To be the devils advocate here ... this actually describes capitalism equally if not better, than socilaism."

Failed. That doesn't describe capitalism, it describes what has become known as "crony capitalism" to some extent, but then that isn't really capitalism anyway. It is really more syndicalism - which is a variation on socialism.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus February 10, 2015 1:41 PM  

I see frequent expressions of an attitude that "they" the proles and the voters are the guilty ones, demanding more loans for free stuff for themselves and throwing out governments that don't comply.

But on key issues, the rulers do what they want, or rather what their covert superiors want, including taking on massive debts and abolishing the white populations through mass immigration.

American voters know by personal experience, or they should know by now, that they can vote for a lifetime for secure borders and honest money, and the politicians will still kow-tow to Sheldon Adelson and his friends, they will still push the usury game all out, they will still push for open borders, and they will blame this on the voters and not on the "big donors" that the politicians are really obeying.

The implications of the hoi-polloi really being in charge and guilty is that less democracy is the solution and that "the best people" should be more powerful.

In reality, a false aristocracy is already in charge, and that's the problem. The more it's enabled to seize power and slight the masses, the worse.

Anonymous cheddarman February 10, 2015 1:47 PM  

"What do you think the Federal Reserve is for?"

So I can have my trip to Disney Land with out having to rob a grocery store?

Anonymous Noah B. February 10, 2015 1:50 PM  

Greece be like, Pay me bitchez.

Blogger bob k. mando February 10, 2015 1:54 PM  

dh February 10, 2015 1:29 PM
But you have to realize that half of everyone is below average, and a good chunk of those substantially so.



and lack of intelligence varies inversely with grasping, greedy malfeasence?

look, the first thing Marx tells them is that "To each according to his need".

even a one week old infant knows that IF they cry THEN they get fed. where is the "intelligence" in this? where is the altruism?

Marxism is an ideology for the selfish and grasping PAIRED WITH lack of ability / lack of drive. IQ is irrelevant to the question.

the fact that many of them are factually ( <90 IQ ) stupid is beside the point that their interest is theft.

it just means that they can't even get their heads around the concept of "Don't kill the Golden Goose".

which is how you get Venezuela.

also, don't conflate the mere population of Russia / China etc with true believers in Marxism. many did not believe, but had no other choice.

Anonymous Stilicho February 10, 2015 1:56 PM  

So I can have my trip to Disney Land with out having to rob a grocery store?

Have you had your shots?

Anonymous Stilicho February 10, 2015 2:04 PM  

Cheds,

http://www.robives.com/mechanisms/bellcrank#.VNpVwC6Ta70

Anonymous FP February 10, 2015 2:08 PM  

Heh, Bill Whittle goes white knight. I'm shocked. I enjoyed his whinging a year or two ago when people gave him crap for buying a chevy camaro.

Blogger Geoff February 10, 2015 3:06 PM  

VD, as our resident man on the ground in Italy, what's the current sentiment there regarding the Euro? Greece is small fry, but the good old Italians just might be the key to breaking up the Euro for good.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper February 10, 2015 3:32 PM  

bah. I think you are slightly wrong on issue of living within their means. Look at Europe, despite (and not because of, despite) a massive welfare state, as much as 2/3 of people of peak fertile age do not have enough income to afford a family.
Upwards of 40% have only part time work (40% in the South 33% elsewhere) and while the numbers aren't listed I suspect 20% are low income. This leaves only about half the population able to afford family formation and birth numbers adjusted by race and income suggests to me that Euro folk would like slightly above replacement families, 2.2 or 2.3 maybe but simply have no means of steady income so they can't have them.

And in case anyone trucks out the "public sector" mantra. No. It doesn't matter what concessions are offered, almost any business will seek constantly cheaper labor and a smaller workforce which is exactly what we don't need. In essence excess efficiency is slow motion genocide,.

What all the welfare spending does is buy safety for the elite, a semi-functional society and slows the end and as such they can't stop.

Blogger Joshua Dyal February 10, 2015 3:43 PM  

VD, as our resident man on the ground in Italy, what's the current sentiment there regarding the Euro? Greece is small fry, but the good old Italians just might be the key to breaking up the Euro for good.

That's the real interesting question, isn't it? The UK is lurching towards severing ties with the EU. If Spain, Portugal, Italy, and some of the other marginal countries follow Greece's lead, then the whole collapses, and fairly quickly.

Anonymous Zion's Paladin February 10, 2015 3:54 PM  

That's the real interesting question, isn't it? The UK is lurching towards severing ties with the EU. If Spain, Portugal, Italy, and some of the other marginal countries follow Greece's lead, then the whole collapses, and fairly quickly.

That's not the question that interests me the most. The question I'm wondering about is will the EU follow Lincoln's example in trying to keep the Union together?

Blogger James Dixon February 10, 2015 4:00 PM  

> Yes, they can. They just don't want to.

Really? How can you "quit spending money" and still pay your debts?

Now I could look up the actual debt amounts, make the calculations as to what percentage of their GDP it would take to make the debt payments, and demonstrate that the debt can effectively never be paid off; but that argument doesn't begin to deserve such rigor.

Blogger bob k. mando February 10, 2015 4:08 PM  

Zion's Paladin February 10, 2015 3:54 PM
The question I'm wondering about is will the EU follow Lincoln's example in trying to keep the Union together?



how on earth would they manage that? they weren't holding up their end of the self defense deal when the Sovs were still around. military spending has collapsed since then.

that's a big part of the problem with Ukraine. the US is pretty much the only NATO member with still carrying a big stick and Obama has refused to commit any troops ( which would be stupid anyways ). even Germany is down to something like 4 armored battalions, several of the EU members don't bother fielding armor divs.

if Brussels presumes to resort to violence to force members to remain within the EU, you could easily see both Russia and Turkey / Islamic State saying, 'fuck it' and taking east Europe and a lot of the Med for themselves.

the EU doesn't field any significant forces.

if individual nations within the EU go to war FOR the EU, strength will be so splintered that the only 'protection' Europe will have from external threats will be whatever nuclear umbrella France and the UK feel like extending.

Anonymous John Smallberries February 10, 2015 4:31 PM  

"Conservatives will believe almost any shit a woman tells them."

Hence the success of Sarah Palin.

Anonymous cheddarman February 10, 2015 5:33 PM  

"if Brussels presumes to resort to violence to force members to remain within the EU, you could easily see both Russia and Turkey / Islamic State saying, 'fuck it' and taking east Europe and a lot of the Med for themselves." -bob k. mando

logistics bob, logistics!

Anonymous Anubis February 10, 2015 5:54 PM  

"Please explain what Greece should do, then. Quit borrowing money. Quit spending money. Live within their means."
Quit borrowing money, repudiate the debt, hang bankers/leftist politicians from lampposts, secure their borders, kick the 3rd world out & free trade with Russia. How to acompish this? See the video "One Golden Dawn vs. 30 anarchists" for an explanation.

"Conservatives will believe almost any shit a woman tells them."
You mean Sandy Fluke doesn't actually need thousands of my tax dollars a year to pay for birth control? You mean a fugly feminist didn't get gang raped in a pitch black room on broken glass as reported in Rolling Stone? Well I still believe what Dunham wrote about her tapping her 3 year old sisters vagina because there is no benefit for her to say it.

Blogger Shibes Meadow February 10, 2015 6:17 PM  

Christianity is not a religion of rights. The so-called Rights of Man are entirely a fiction of the Enlightenment and the Revolution. We are clay, and clay has no claim upon the Potter, as last Sunday's readings made clear.

Christianity is instead a religion of responsibilities, of duties. These duties are twofold: duty to God, and duty to Neighbor. Our duty to God is to love Him with all our being; our duty to Neighbor is to love him as we love ourselves. Therefore, the first thing we must do is to love God; second, we must love ourselves.

And from these flow our entire moral code, both negative and positive. The Ten Commandments are the negative side of our moral code; the Corporal and Spiritual Works of Mercy are the positive. The Commandments tell us what me must not do; the Works of Mercy represent what we must do.

I'll assume you are all familiar with the Ten Commandments. The Corporal Works of Mercy are:

1. To feed the hungry;
2. To give drink to the thirsty;
3. To clothe the naked;
4. To harbour the harbourless (i.e. to shelter the homeless);
5. To visit the sick;
6. To ransom the captive;
7. To bury the dead.

The spiritual works of mercy are:

1. To instruct the ignorant;
2. To counsel the doubtful;
3. To admonish sinners;
4. To bear wrongs patiently;
5. To forgive offences willingly;
6. To comfort the afflicted;
7. To pray for the living and the dead.

And so we see the basis of Catholic Social Teaching.

You'll note that nowhere in these works of mercy do we see the word "government". This is because the practice of government welfare, panem et circenses, was associated with pagan Rome. Public welfare was (and is) nothing more than a bribe used by the Power Clique to pacify the masses -- obviously not a Christian idea. Instead, the Christian way of welfare is for the Church to serve as the dispenser of the works of mercy. The question is not "do the hungry have the right to food?", but "do Christians have the obligation to feed the hungry?" The obvious answer is "yes". The question is not "do people have the right to medical care regardless of ability to pay?"; rather, it is "do Christians have the duty to provide for the care of the sick and injured in their community?" Again, the answer is "yes".

So who does the work? Who carries the load? Out of whose pocket does the money come to care for the needy? Christ makes it crystal clear in Mathew 14:16 who is to bear the burden of paying for the needs of the poor. Hint: it is not the State.

Providing for the welfare of the poor is the duty of the Church, and any church that spends its money on amenities rather than on the welfare of the poor is a false church. Altars, vestments, stained glass, and so forth are not amenities; they are necessities. Priests and those who celebrate the mass with them are courtiers in service to a King, and it is only fitting that those facilities and objects which are used in His worship be the richest and finest of things. By "amenities" I mean things like basketball courts, coffee bars, amplified electric musical instruments, and the big new Family Life Center. The fact that people are living on the street or doing without the necessities of life in our towns ought to cause us Christians to weep with shame.

Do people have a right to food, clothing, housing, medical care and the like? No, they do not. Christians have a duty to provide the people in their communities with these things. And make no mistake: we will be judged on how well we did our duty.

Anonymous Zion's Paladin February 10, 2015 7:33 PM  

@bob

Odds are good you know more about this than I do, so I accept that assessment of their military capability, and that it would be a stupid idea. But history is full of stupid ideas that were tried anyway, such as Marxism.

To expand upon my question, it is not so much a question of whether they can force them back in as it is whether they think they can.

Blogger Anthony February 10, 2015 8:03 PM  

So - does Greece actually have to leave the Euro or the EU if it defaults on its government debt? Or could they just say "we're not paying", and sit tight? Sure, they get a bunch of transfer funds from Brussels, but there's a chance they'll keep some of that if they stay in the EU. Also, it keeps some of the goodies they buy cheaper, and the few things they do produce will fetch more profit if they stay in the EU. Also tourists - lots of European tourists; if they're still part of the EU and using Euros, there will be more tourists than if they leave.

It's really not clear to me (though I'm too lazy to look it up) that a Greek default would automatically result in Greece leaving either the Euro or the EU.

OpenID simplytimothy February 10, 2015 8:43 PM  

@Shibes Meadow

Thank you for the timely reminder.


Anonymous Rolf February 10, 2015 9:35 PM  

I think it's funny that the EU is suffering the exact same problems, for the exact same reasons, that the US Articles of Confederation had, which were failing and had to be totally replaced with the US constitution.

Those that do not learn from history, yadda yadda yadda...

Anonymous map February 10, 2015 11:13 PM  

I think there is a big misunderstanding about what how Greece has been funded by the EU. The money that was earmarked was never formally given to Greece to spend as it chose. The money sits in a German Bank and is doled out to Greece based on whatever projects they deem necessary.

A good example is the building of a subway. Greece tells the German bank that they want a subway built. The German bank releases the money to German engineering firm and the subway gets built using German workers. That gets finished then a new project gets built.

The Greeks were pissed that no Greek workers were used.

Also, the typical income of a Greek pensioner is 1,000 euros a month. Legitimate firms actually pay cash under the table for jobs like accounting.

Anonymous Discard February 11, 2015 12:35 AM  

map: The Greeks borrowed money from the Germans to pay other Germans to build them a subway. Bad bargain.
If the Greeks are pissed about it, they need to look in the mirror. They should have said, "No Greek workers, no deal". If the Germans balked, then they should have done without subways.
OTOH, it may well be that Greeks were not capable of getting the work correctly and on time, and the Germans weren't about to pay them to fuck things up. Are they sort of like Mexicans in that way?

Anonymous map February 11, 2015 1:46 AM  

Discard,

The point is that these transactions are not what they seem.

This is not a normal creditor/debtor relationship, where an entity evaluates the "credit-worthiness" of buyer in the hopes of getting their money back plus a rate of return. What we are seeing here is the need to maintain a flow of funds to keep money circulating and the ledgers balanced with phantom debits/credits.

Greece really is not going anywhere.

Anonymous Steve February 11, 2015 9:44 AM  

"Discard,

The point is that these transactions are not what they seem.

This is not a normal creditor/debtor relationship, where an entity evaluates the "credit-worthiness" of buyer in the hopes of getting their money back plus a rate of return. What we are seeing here is the need to maintain a flow of funds to keep money circulating and the ledgers balanced with phantom debits/credits.

Greece really is not going anywhere."


I agree that this will be the result. I believe that this whole affair is a stage-managed production meant to circumvent the rise of Greek Nationalism in accordance with the Greek will.With the people's party outlawed and in political prison,Syriza,the filthy spawn of Eurocratic banksters themselves,will cut a deal with them and try to keep Greece in financial shackles in such a way as to not incur an uprising. Their jewish friends in the IMF and EU will be more than happy to lend them a hand,by putting on a little marionette show for the silly goyim.

Without a Nationalist Greek Patriot government,Greece will be bled dry by traitorous Greek marxist and alien hebrew saboteurs and they will be replaced by non-Greeks in the historic land they fought so many legendary battles for.It doesn't matter what spin the globalists and international socialists are putting on affairs regarding Greece for the goys outside Greece,it's not the truth. It's a fabrication,distortion, or outright lie. These financial matters are not primarily financial. They are political. More specifically, they are politics as usual.

Anonymous Discard February 11, 2015 7:14 PM  

Is this like the sub-prime loan crisis, wherein banks made loans that they knew were bad, but then put them on the books as money they expected to receive, and then sold this bad debt to other banks as debt that would actually be paid? (I know that there are proper terms for all this, but I don't know them.)

Or is it that the Banksters loaned money to themselves with the Greeks as co-signers, in order to gain power over Greece?
I can easily believe that Syriza will take the 30 pieces of silver and play the collaborator. BTW, was there anything in their 40+ point program about immigration? If not, they are unambiguously traitors.

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