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Tuesday, March 03, 2015

Asking for trouble

This epically lunatic deployment looks likely to put more than a few American soldiers in danger this summer:
US 173rd Airborne Brigade Commander Michael Foster said at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, DC said the US would deploy personnel by the end of this week to train the Ukrainian national guard.

“Before this week is up, we’ll be deploying a battalion minus… to the Ukraine to train Ukrainian forces for the fight that’s taking place,” Foster stated. “What we’ve got laid out is six United States companies that will be training six Ukrainian companies throughout the summer.”

The training will take place at the level of US and Ukrainian national guard companies, Foster explained, adding that “we have nothing above battalion staff level” engaged in the military training. The current plan is for US forces to stay six months, he said, and noted there have been discussions about how to increase the duration and the scope of the training mission.

The current channels for military training set up between Ukraine and the United States would not be used for transferring defensive lethal aid if the United States decided to provide arms to Ukraine, Foster told Sputnik on Monday.
I imagine Putin is already conferring with his generals about the best way to encircle and capture this battalion, which would be a bigger military humiliation for the United States than the Vietnam War combined with the failure of Operation Eagle Claw.

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113 Comments:

Anonymous rho March 03, 2015 4:41 AM  

Americans in Ukraine. This can only end in notches for the servicemen. And maybe apocalyptic strategic failure. But largely? Weekend warriors landing tail.

Anonymous zen0 March 03, 2015 5:02 AM  

Are these the same guys that retrained the world renowned Iraqi army?

I expect most of the coming casualties will be due to alcohol poisoning.

Anonymous PhillipGeorge(c)2015 March 03, 2015 5:06 AM  

Here are a few Russians demonstrating the end of tank warfare .The reason I suggest people look at this is to consider that the next war shall not look like the last. Maybe something to do with hypersonic supercavitation plasma weapons. But why speculate when you have rock solid hubris on your side

Blogger JACIII March 03, 2015 5:14 AM  

Idiocy. What geopolitical genius (moron) came up with this? And this idea had to get through multiple layers of idiots to actually come to fruition. The US is doomed.

Blogger W.LindsayWheeler March 03, 2015 5:38 AM  

Seconded: The US is doomed. It has been for awhile. America is an Idiocracy. An Idiocracy makes idiotic decisions. Duh!

Anonymous zen0 March 03, 2015 5:39 AM  

> What geopolitical genius (moron) came up with this?


My guess would be arch-globalist Zbigniew Brzezinski

OpenID simplytimothy March 03, 2015 6:19 AM  

Efforts to arouse the American people to a warlike state have failed recently; I expect this is another attempt.

One other point.

Congress is dismantling itself of its role in American politics with seeming glee so they can focus on making money and weilding influence. Small men doing small things thinking they are big men doing big things is an apt description of them. There has been no discussion or vote on this warmongering. The FedGov is anti-thetical to and openly hostile to America.

Anonymous Old Man in a Villa March 03, 2015 6:27 AM  

Interesting. Last week there was a piece that specifically mentioned elements of the 173rd Airborne almost three weeks ago-


A stunning new report prepared by the Ministry of Defense (MoD) circulating in the Kremlin today states that the Obama regime has “effectively abandoned” at least 150 US troops embedded with over Ukrainian 5,000 forces in the rebel surrounded town of Debaltseve in eastern Ukraine and left by Kiev’s government to die.

According to this report, the US troops currently under rebel siege are an ad hoc group of American Special Forces belonging to the Vicenza, Italy-based 173rd Airborne Brigade, CIA Special Activities Division (SAD) troops, and elite mercenaries from the notorious US private security firm Academi (formerly known as Blackwater).

http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index1839.htm

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus March 03, 2015 6:31 AM  

The British soldier in Ukraine will need to be dealt with too.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan March 03, 2015 6:47 AM  

One thing surprises me is that if there are Americans there on the ground is why there is no rewards being posted to bring one in for display. It is what I would do, even the Ukeys would be tempted to make a buck.

Blogger Rantor March 03, 2015 6:48 AM  

While I too oppose this training, according to RT, it will take place in far west Ukraine, near the border with Poland. Would take quite an effort for Russia to attack the U.S. troops. It does continue the US escalation of the conflict and that is worrisome.

Anonymous daddynichol March 03, 2015 7:33 AM  

I imagine Putin is already conferring with his generals about the best way to encircle and capture this battalion, which would be a bigger military humiliation for the United States than the Vietnam War combined with the failure of Operation Eagle Claw. - Vox Day

Fear not. Secretary of State Kerry will write Putin a very, very stern letter of protest.

Blogger Nate March 03, 2015 7:51 AM  

Which is more critical to success, plan or execution? in football a bad plan well executed will win more games than it loses. It will in fact win many games. I dare say it only loses to a superior plan executed just as well. In football a great plan poorly executed will get you humiliated. Now... what about foreign policy? Which is more important; plan or execution?

I am not convicted on this... but I do lean towards execution being more critical than strategy. And so I wonder if while we focus on Obama being Dubya Part II on foreign policy we aren't ignoring something very important.

Dubya had bad policy and a bad strategy... but it was executed far better than Obama is managing with a similarly bad strategy.

No doubt the philosophers and the strategists are appalled at my question here... nevertheless it bears asking.

Blogger Student in Blue March 03, 2015 7:58 AM  

You don't need six companies to train six companies... and it's a better idea (in my opinion) to have one amazing company than six okay companies.

“[W]e have nothing above battalion staff level” also basically means nothing above Major rank if I'm recalling this correctly. No one that really spends all their time doing politics in other words, which is a good thing in regards to actually getting training done (because then the people going over there has the highest chance of knowing wtf they're doing) but it also just screams out 'sacrificial lambs' if things go belly-up.

Anonymous Salt March 03, 2015 8:09 AM  

No one that really spends all their time doing politics in other words

The expendable ones.

Blogger Markku March 03, 2015 8:14 AM  

Of course they are not there to train the Ukrainian army. I'm well aware of the fact that if I got a letter in the mail today, calling me to a war against Russia, it wouldn't say "come to [street address], and then let's go kill some Russky". Rather, it would call me to some bullshit operation, conveniently near the Eastern border. Everybody would then pretend to not understand what it's really about, until the command is given to kill some Russky.

You always try to keep plausible deniability right up and until the shooting starts.

Blogger Markku March 03, 2015 8:20 AM  

And Russia is going to be well aware of this, as it's standard operating procedure. Not some great military genius. After all, we pulled it on them in Continuation War.

Come to Eastern Finland, let's do some military practice. No biggie, no sweat, just us guys having some fun.

SIKE!

Go kill Russky.

Anonymous ZhukovG March 03, 2015 8:21 AM  

Poroschenko is in a very dangerous position right now. The defeat of the Ukrainian Army at Debeltsavo was a disaster and the Banderists are probably wanting to oust him. We are deploying six companies right into the Banderists home turf, so we may find ourselves fighting Neo-Nazis in order to keep our puppet in power.

While still stupid, this would be somewhat more rational than attempting to perform a replay of Ft Sumter with Russia cast as the Confederacy.

Blogger njartist March 03, 2015 8:23 AM  

@ Student in Blue March 03, 2015 7:58 AM
it also just screams out 'sacrificial lambs'...

You mean like this:Kremlin In Shock After Obama Abandons Hundreds Of US Troops In Ukraine

Blogger Salt March 03, 2015 8:25 AM  

I'm quite sure the Military Industrial Complex was eyeing the Vietnam opportunity when the first US personnel were sent. Just takes a little time. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Blogger Vox March 03, 2015 8:32 AM  

Now... what about foreign policy? Which is more important; plan or execution?

Execution is always more important. If planning was, I'd be a billionaire today.

Blogger Markku March 03, 2015 8:34 AM  

At this point, the move of a professional troll would be to move his forces in such a way that they are an obvious threat to the American forces, but only if they engage in the war. Not if they stay in the West, which is what they said they would. USA would then have no basis in protesting.

I don't know what this move would be, but I have a hunch it would involve Crimea. Which Russia could credibly claim to just be any old place in Russia for it to keep its forces.

Blogger Markku March 03, 2015 8:37 AM  

Or, to troll even more, Russia could claim that the Crimean Russians are all scared of the American forces in the neighborhood, and have asked Russia for help.

OpenID cailcorishev March 03, 2015 8:49 AM  

It's amazing how US leaders seem determined to get pulled into this. I realize MPAI and that people don't learn from history, but don't we learn at all, even for short periods? Shouldn't the Vietnam generation have to die before we forget and repeat its mistakes verbatim? When these people talk about sending "non-combatant" troops for training purposes, why doesn't anyone drag out Alan Alda and Mike Farrell to say, "Yeah, that sounds familiar"?

Seems like they should have to come up with a new plot, or some new jargon, at least.

Anonymous PA March 03, 2015 8:52 AM  

Despite the government's efforts to whip up an anti-Russian furor, Americans aren't buying it. The few would-be warmongers among the general public include SJWs who are worked up over "Putin hates gays" and Boomer-generation conservatives with their atavistic cold war mentality.

But the same young and eager American boys who rushed to enlist for every imperial war up to and including the Iraq Attaq aren't buying it. Possible reasons for the apathy:

- They ain't taking a bullet for the current commander in chief, or for Pussy Riot for that matter.

- The evolution of Russian women in their perception from "sveem vierr, eeveneeng vierr" to the kind of women they wish they had.

- Snowden's revelations killed the American's alliegance to his government.

- Two decades of escalating and overt anti-White propaganda did too

- Iraq fatigue/Bush disappointment

- what the fuck is America anyway? quoth Whiskey in a rare moment of lucidity: nobody wants to die for the United Colors of Benneton.

- the Internet's defanging of the Narrative

Blogger Josh March 03, 2015 9:00 AM  

The few would-be warmongers among the general public include SJWs who are worked up over "Putin hates gays" and Boomer-generation conservatives with their atavistic cold war mentality.

So we have the core of the democratic and the core of the republican parties.

Blogger Laguna Beach Fogey March 03, 2015 9:01 AM  

I imagine Putin is already conferring with his generals about the best way to encircle and capture this battalion, which would be a bigger military humiliation for the United States than the Vietnam War combined with the failure of Operation Eagle Claw.

This needs to happen. Hopefully it would help stir up some discontent among US troops.

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus March 03, 2015 9:02 AM  

I imagine Putin is already conferring with his generals about the best way to encircle and capture this battalion, which would be a bigger military humiliation for the United States than the Vietnam War combined with the failure of Operation Eagle Claw.

I don't really see that happening.

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus March 03, 2015 9:05 AM  

You mean like this:Kremlin In Shock After Obama Abandons Hundreds Of US Troops In Ukraine

Something like this might well be what it takes for the military to finally decide to overthrow the junta.

And for all you NSA types out there reading this, don't blame me for saying this - you all are thinking it yourselves...I KNOW you are. That's why Obama is trying to destroy our military while coming up with brownshirted alternatives.

Anonymous PA March 03, 2015 9:08 AM  

"So we have the core of the democratic and the core of the republican parties."

Yes. And thankfully members of neither 'core' are lance corporal material, the latter on account of age and the former on account of general faggotry.

Blogger bob k. mando March 03, 2015 9:11 AM  

Markku March 03, 2015 8:14 AM
You always try to keep plausible deniability right up and until the shooting starts.



yeah, but you would ALSO be deploying a force significant enough to be an actual threat.

what we're sending is not only too small to be an effectual threat, we're also sending part time party-time 'soldiers' from the Natty Guard into one of the hottest war zones on the planet.

compare and contrast to sending of regular army units into the Ebola hot zone ...

fucking brilliant.

we are sending cannon fodder to


Rantor March 03, 2015 6:48 AM
according to RT, it will take place in far west Ukraine, near the border with Poland.


maybe so, maybe no. either way, it's getting way too close to

http://www.ibtimes.com/russia-conducts-military-exercises-moldovas-breakaway-region-transnistria-near-ukraines-western

for anyone to feel comfortable.



Markku March 03, 2015 8:20 AM
SIKE!


guh ...

the Finn is using phonetic approximations of Americansky slang?

you poor bastard.

Anonymous PA March 03, 2015 9:16 AM  

"what we're sending is not only too small to be an effectual threat"

This may either be the administration's token gesture to placate the hawks, or more likely a provocation wherein a (real or false flag) Russian attack on the battalion will (they're hoping) give the US a causus belli and whip up the apathetic American public.

OpenID genericviews March 03, 2015 9:17 AM  

Fear not. Secretary of State Kerry will write Putin a very, very stern letter of protest. --Daddynichol

More likely an ambiguously worded letter that is not too disapproving and can be clarified 4 times on Twitter later.

Blogger Student in Blue March 03, 2015 9:21 AM  

"[...] and whip up the apathetic American public."

It seems like TPTB is convinced that the only a good ol' war with an actual army will jumpstart the economy, because we didn't get a good enough boost from withstanding suicide bombers after 10 years.

The writing's on the wall, they know they can't juggle the numbers for that much longer before it comes crashing down, so they hope a war will fix it.

Anonymous JI March 03, 2015 9:31 AM  

Does it seem to anyone else that American military "training" in foreign countries always ends with epic failures on the part of the "students"? Maybe those nations should stop and consider that this training is free (more or less) and you get what you pay for.

Anonymous Mike43 March 03, 2015 9:47 AM  

6 companies. That's a reinforced battalion. Lieutenant Colonel in charge, totaling about 6-700 soldiers.

Will they have arms and ammunition? That's my question. Plus these are Airborne troops, so they are light infantry. Not capable of much more than foot movement.

If I was the OIC, I'd want a lot of contingency plans. If not, there's another March of the 10,000 on the horizon.

Blogger Nate March 03, 2015 9:48 AM  

"Execution is always more important. If planning was, I'd be a billionaire today."

Precisely.

And that is why I reject the assertion that Obama's foreign policy is just Dubya part II. ideologically it may be dubya part II but the execution is objectively worse than Dubya's and the results are worse as well.


Blogger Nate March 03, 2015 9:50 AM  

"Does it seem to anyone else that American military "training" in foreign countries always ends with epic failures on the part of the "students"? "

Not always. But often. Lots of folks benefited from this same foreign policy strategy in the 80s. Again... its more about execution than planning.

Blogger bob k. mando March 03, 2015 9:57 AM  

Nate March 03, 2015 9:48 AM
but the execution is objectively worse than Dubya's and the results are worse as well.



you're still calculating from the assumption that Obama desires the US to succeed.

i don't see anything in his life or upbringing or acquaintances that would indicate that he wants anything good for America or the Constitution.

Blogger bob k. mando March 03, 2015 9:58 AM  

http://dailycaller.com/2015/03/02/caption-this-john-kerry-and-russian-foreign-minister-sergey-lavrov-share-the-warmth/

Anonymous Quartermaster March 03, 2015 10:00 AM  

Several commenters have a rather provincial view of the events in Vietnam. The ARVN, with only a small amount of help from us, mainly aviation, destroyed half the invading NVA in the Easter Offensive of 1972. The treaty ending our involvement called for us to send aviation units back if the NVA decided on another stint of R&R in Saigon. That decision came in 1975, after we were completely out. It was another massive invasion, and the Dimocrats, who owned Congress at the time, decided that they would abrogate the treaty themselves, and ARVN found themselves cut off from all aid. It's hard to do anything with 20 rounds and one grenade per man.

The loss of Vietnam was not a humiliation for the Military, who weren't there when it fell, but for the dimocrats who felt no shame for the blood they still have on their hands. ARVN performed well after 1970 and their casualties were actually quite a bit higher in the entire war than our own. They went down fighting in 1975.

So, one can not say that military training of foreign troops "always ends with epic failures." We'll have to see what happens in Ukraine.

If the Ukrainians truly have a national existence they are willing to defend, then training efforts on our part could have a good effect as the Ukrainian regime certainly has not put much effort into their military. It will depend on the Ukes themselves. Training a few infantry companies, however, won't have too much effect. There will have to be training of their armored and artillery forces as well, and then training in working together. To my knowledge, Ukraine has nothing approaching our National Training Center at Irwin, or Germany's Graf or Wildflicken. I doubt there is enough time to stand up a Ukrainian military strong enough to take down the Russian supported separatists in SE Ukraine.

Blogger jmyron March 03, 2015 10:02 AM  

@PhillipGeorge(c)2015

Nah, that's not the end of tank warefare. ATGM's are less effective against modern MBTs than they were in 73 - didn't end tank warefare then, won't end it now.

Blogger Nate March 03, 2015 10:03 AM  

"you're still calculating from the assumption that Obama desires the US to succeed."

WAKE UP SHEEPLE!!!!

Anonymous Stilicho March 03, 2015 10:18 AM  

Not always. But often. Lots of folks benefited from this same foreign policy strategy in the 80s. Again... its more about execution than planning.

It depends on the type of training and the quality of the trainees. You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear and you can't effectively train a relatively poor military to practice 2GW the way the American military does. However, on a tactical (and sometimes operational) level, the training can be very effective if you have good troops to work with (and this usually means they are already a cohesive, well led unit of one sort or another). Trying to create a western style military ex nihilo out of disparate and distrustful troops with divided loyalties is a recipe for disaster, but it is apparently a very tasty recipe to the Pentagon and politicians.

Anonymous Stilicho March 03, 2015 10:21 AM  

Nah, that's not the end of tank warefare. ATGM's are less effective against modern MBTs than they were in 73 - didn't end tank warefare then, won't end it now.

Meh. To neutralize tanks, you remove their maneuverability (take out their tracks or their fuel supplies). After that, they're second rate artillery at best.

Anonymous Stilicho March 03, 2015 10:23 AM  

another method is to draw them into terrain that is unfavorable to them, but that isn't always available as an option.

Blogger Nate March 03, 2015 10:24 AM  

"Trying to create a western style military ex nihilo out of disparate and distrustful troops with divided loyalties is a recipe for disaster, but it is apparently a very tasty recipe to the Pentagon and politicians."

Same great taste as war... without all the calories!

Blogger jmyron March 03, 2015 10:32 AM  

@Stilicho

And if you saw an infantryman's legs off...

Blogger Markku March 03, 2015 10:34 AM  

the Finn is using phonetic approximations of Americansky slang?

you poor bastard.


It's a Dynamic Equivalence -translation.

Blogger jmyron March 03, 2015 10:35 AM  

The mere fact that a platform is not a silver bullet does not make it obsolete.

Blogger bob k. mando March 03, 2015 10:48 AM  

Nate March 03, 2015 10:03 AM
WAKE UP SHEEPLE!!!!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnlRrxXv-v8

Anonymous Stilicho March 03, 2015 10:49 AM  

@Stilicho

And if you saw an infantryman's legs off...


Nope. Shooting him in the leg because his vitals are heavily armored is the correct analogy. It doesn't have to be permanent, just enough to keep him from getting where he needs to be for a while. Nor is it easy, but it is far easier than building main battle tanks of your own when you simply don't have the resources. Savvy?

Anonymous ZhukovG March 03, 2015 10:55 AM  

@Nate

I agree with you.

But we did such a bang up job creating ISIS, maybe we can weld Western Ukraine into a proper Nazi War Machine. It would be hilarious if they then promptly invade Poland.

Blogger jmyron March 03, 2015 10:57 AM  

Fine, an infantryman with his shoelaces tied together then. Tanks are significantly harder to immobilize than virtually anything else on the battlefield.

Most nation states with the resources to field an army of any significance have the resources to field relatively modern MBTs.

Again, the mere fact that a platform is not a silver bullet does not make it obsolete.

Blogger YIH March 03, 2015 10:57 AM  

Nate, Vox:
Now... what about foreign policy? Which is more important; plan or execution?

Execution is always more important. If planning was, I'd be a billionaire today.

First thing that comes to mind was the late John McKay (first Bucs coach):
''What do you think of your team's execution?''
''I'm all for it''

Blogger Nate March 03, 2015 10:59 AM  

Tanks are important to america because Blitzkrieg is America's primary military go to plan. We confuse you and pound on you with air strikes...then we roll for the capital at 65mph with a legion of tanks and its over before you really have a chance to fight.

In that situation tanks are vital. And very effective. In most other situations... the utility of battle tanks is... marginal at best.

Blogger Nate March 03, 2015 11:02 AM  

"But we did such a bang up job creating ISIS, maybe we can weld Western Ukraine into a proper Nazi War Machine."

See I regard the creation of ISIS as evidence of incompetence... but hey... if you want to be an optimist about it...

Blogger Nate March 03, 2015 11:03 AM  

I really never liked Poland anyway.

Blogger jmyron March 03, 2015 11:04 AM  

Tanks are also the best means of stopping other tanks, so if you want to stop US from rolling into your capitol, you had better have a lot of them. Otherwise you get blitzkrieged off the face of mein vorldt.

Blogger Markku March 03, 2015 11:06 AM  

Yeah, the Finnish strategy, for obvious necessities, is the opposite. It is the Fighting Withdrawal. You let the enemy gain ground, and you actually plan for them to do so. But as it advances, you make it incur much more losses than you do. Eventually they'll figure it's just not worth the cost, and go bother someone else. Then you just go back to your temporarily lost territory.

You need a certain type of cynical humility to pull this off, because there will be a time when it looks to everyone that you're losing. The men need to be fully on board with the strategy, for the morale to not collapse.

Anonymous Average American March 03, 2015 11:07 AM  

What's a "Ukraine"?

Anonymous Stilicho March 03, 2015 11:08 AM  

Again, the mere fact that a platform is not a silver bullet does not make it obsolete.

Pay attention, I didn't claim they were obsolete.

Blogger jmyron March 03, 2015 11:11 AM  

No, that was the other guy. You were just being dismissive because they are not completely indestructible, which is silly.

Anonymous Sami Houston March 03, 2015 11:16 AM  

Then you just go back to your temporarily lost territory.

Remember the Petsamo!

Blogger JACIII March 03, 2015 11:20 AM  

What's a "Ukraine"?

It's like Utube but you pick up heavy things with it.

Anonymous FP March 03, 2015 11:28 AM  

Barracks go Boom: Ukrainian Boogaloo coming soon to a political theater show near you.

Anonymous Porky March 03, 2015 11:28 AM  

Yeah, the Finnish strategy, for obvious necessities, is the opposite. It is the Fighting Withdrawal.

And always make sure the enemy is wearing dark uniforms in the fresh snow.

Anonymous Stilicho March 03, 2015 11:34 AM  

No, that was the other guy. You were just being dismissive because they are not completely indestructible, which is silly.

Nope. I was merely expanding upon your casual dismissal of threats to armor. You reacted like a whiny little bitch to what wasn't even a criticism of your actual statement. Lighten up, Francine.

Blogger jmyron March 03, 2015 11:37 AM  

Stop projecting nancy.

Blogger Steve Moss March 03, 2015 11:38 AM  

Last year I had the pleasure of touring our judicial facilities and afterwards dining with about a dozen Ukrainian attorneys. They were touring the USA and visiting the various Rotary Clubs and sharing ideas with legal professionals.

Though I recognize it is a small sampling size, all but one of these men (and 2 women) were:

1. Very pro-USA.
2. Recognized the shortcomings of their justice system (trials behind closed doors are common).
3. Wanted to separate themselves from the Russian sphere of influence; they wanted a truly independent Ukraine that was more West than East.

I was also struck with what I interpreted at their personal strength. Growing up in the Ukraine is not the same as growing up in the USA. Even their educated professionals were relatively poor. But I felt they were stronger people for it; they very much reminded me of my grandparents.

It is my opinion, the people of the Ukraine are sincere and willing to fight. Leadership may be corrupt (and even worse, incompetent). I'm not opposed to giving them the skills and tools needed for them to fight for their independence, if we can.

That means taking risks. The USA remains the strongest power in the world, though we are declining. While we can, we should try to do the right thing, even if sometimes we bleed and even if we sometimes lose, and even if sometimes are efforts are corrupted. Do the best we can when we can, and after that let the chips fall when they may.

As to the one exception I mentioned above, he was very pro-Russian. He was also the least impressive and least capable, in my estimation.

Blogger jmyron March 03, 2015 11:39 AM  

In case you are historically illiterate, 73 refers to the Yom Kippur war - where lots of tanks were killed by Soviet made ATGMs. I would hardly characterize my dismissal as casual.

Blogger bob k. mando March 03, 2015 11:54 AM  

Nate March 03, 2015 10:59 AM
And very effective. In most other situations... the utility of battle tanks is... marginal at best.



i would say that MBTs, properly supported by infantry, are invaluable for block to block fighting in a city.

i don't foresee any more MBT vs MBT engagements though. any nation with the wherewithal to field a significant number of tanks is also going to be able to put up close air support.

and 10 MBTs vs a single helo with a full load out of Hellfires are just fish in a barrel.



Nate March 03, 2015 11:03 AM
I really never liked Poland anyway.


did some work with some Polacks who had come to Fla and started their own construction company. always had a hell of a time figuring out what they were trying to tell us to do ( seriously, how hard is it to say, "dump your load of sand here" ) but always just figured it was due to ESL.

then i saw the brothers get into an argument with EACH OTHER on a job site.

and it became clear: language wasn't the problem. the problem was that they were stereotypically Polack.

how they ever got money, i have no idea.



jmyron March 03, 2015 11:04 AM
Tanks are also the best means of stopping other tanks


false. addressed above.

hell, you can find youtube of a tank getting taken out by a single guy lobbing a grenade into the muzzle of it's main gun because the tank had no support and no visibility.

Blogger jmyron March 03, 2015 12:00 PM  

false. addressed above.

Not so - the Vast majority of Iraqi tanks taken out in the Gulf War and Iraqi freedom were destroyed by our tanks.

Anonymous cheddarman March 03, 2015 12:07 PM  

I feel bad for the tankers and mechanized infantry in our army. After 70 plus years,we still have not caught on to the idea of using spaced armor to defeat rocket propelled grenades and antitank weapons with shaped charge warheads. The Russians have had the PG-7VR tandem warhead rocket propelled grenade around for 25+ years. Insurgents used copies of them to defeat american armor in Iraq. Generals who should know better should be drawn and quartered for this fiasco. In an army with honor, they would have fallen on their swords or resigned.

If we fight well armed and well led Russians, they could very well hand us our asses. We will learn the meaning of Za Rhodinu! (For the Motherland!) just like the Germans in WW2. I doubt Putin is going to roll over and play dead for the banksters.

Besides, what is the end game? Russia goes back to selling their oil in U.S. dollars and make their country fag friendly?

Anonymous patrick kelly March 03, 2015 12:07 PM  

@Markku: "he men need to be fully on board with the strategy, for the morale to not collapse."

Just remind them if the Russians get close enough they get to use their knives....

Anonymous ZhukovG March 03, 2015 12:09 PM  

Steve Moss

Ukraine is the responsibility of Ukrainians. The US has no business interfering in that country. We should not spend one tarnished penny nor sacrifice a single drop of American blood for them.

They have been an independent nation since 1991. Had the US not sponsored an overthrow of their elected corrupt government and replaced it with an even more corrupt puppet government they would still have all their territory and over 5000 people might still be alive.

Blogger jmyron March 03, 2015 12:12 PM  

Ukraine is the responsibility of Ukrainians. The US has no business interfering in that country.

Hear hear!

Anonymous cheddarman March 03, 2015 12:14 PM  

Steve Moss, why is Ukraine our problem? This conflict has nothing to do with right and wrong, it is all about defending the U.S. dollar as the world reserve currency, and letting the bankers continue to financially rape the 99.99%. If you want to die for that, by all means, go to volunteer for the Ukrainian army.

Anonymous Stilicho March 03, 2015 12:17 PM  

Not so - the Vast majority of Iraqi tanks taken out in the Gulf War and Iraqi freedom were destroyed by our tanks.

I don't know what the Army's ratios were (tanks vs tanks as opposed to Bradley (or TOW Hmmwv) vs tanks). The tank platoon attached to my battalion did very little but burn vast quantities of fuel. In fact, the tankers complained that the screening LAV's (TOW variant and 25 mm Bushmaster variants) and the attack helicopters were killing all of the Iraqi armor before they got there.

Anonymous Jack Amok March 03, 2015 12:22 PM  

Which is more critical to success, plan or execution?

Personnel. Which is to say execution. Dubya had far better personnel in place. Obama's penchant for putting SJWs in charge dooms his strategy. Not just in his administration, but also with his recent military purges.

Blogger Bluntobj Winz March 03, 2015 12:33 PM  

Here's my tinfoil hat prediction:

At some point, one US company and one Ukie company will be out training close to the truce line. The neonazi ukie artillery will open up with some Grad or Smerch fire, from the direction of novorussia. They will promptly blame the US casualties on the Novorussians, in an attempt to kick of WW3 between russia and Nato.

Blogger Student in Blue March 03, 2015 2:15 PM  

@Mike43
Is it indeed a 'light colonel' in charge of that formation at minimum, or is it one of those flexible things where it can be Major or Lt Colonel?

Blogger ajw308 March 03, 2015 2:23 PM  

in football a bad plan well executed will win more games than it loses. It will in fact win many games.
Nate, look at the Super Bowl. A bad plan is more likely to fail. A bad plan is only better than no plan. A bad plan that's revised to a good plan us a good thing.

But if one takes a step back and looks at the goal, it all changes. I'd rather see a bad plan to let Ukraine fracture into two countries along cultural lines that a great plan guaranteed to succeed that involves a US military victory against Russia.

Anonymous Statists are so dull March 03, 2015 2:24 PM  

My guess would be arch-globalist Zbigniew Brzezinski

Wouldn't surprise me. Look at how his daughter reacts to memories of the dirty old men from her childhood on live TV. What wouldn't that demon do to advance his beloved NWO?

Boehner Blowing Kisses Brings Back Bad Memories for Brzezinski

I saw a theory that the Eastern European costume rental guy in "Eyes Wide Shut" who pimps out his daughter was based on him.

Anonymous paradox March 03, 2015 2:58 PM  

The Grand Army of the Republic, putting down the right to independence since 1861.

Anonymous paradox March 03, 2015 3:03 PM  

Even Gen. McClellan wasn't this dumb.

Blogger Student in Blue March 03, 2015 3:17 PM  

@ajw308
You're forgetting the execution part of the whole discussion.

Blogger RobertT March 03, 2015 3:44 PM  

One of the definitions of insanity is to keep doing the same old thing and expecting different results. We haven't had a successful military campaign since Reagan invaded Grenada. And before that we have to go all the way back to WWII.

Anonymous aaaturkey March 03, 2015 4:13 PM  

No Steve.

US should leave them alone.
They should not aid a bunch of fascist Galacians enslave the peoples of the Donbass. Imagine if the Spanish speaking population did the same to California, forced all to speak spanish, oppressed the culture, glorified criminals who killed innocent people....

Also Donbass was always the most productive part of the country (and intelligent). Look at the collapse in their ability to earn foreign currency, gone with the Donbass.

Anonymous Discard March 03, 2015 6:41 PM  

Old Man in a Villa: I would be very pleased if the east Ukrainians were to capture those Americans in Debaltseve and mercifully return them, while extracting the maximum humiliation for both Obama and the neocon warmongers. Don't be stupid, guys. Don't die for Hunter Biden. By surrendering, you could strike a greater blow for this country than you ever could with your rifle.

Blogger Akulkis March 03, 2015 7:32 PM  

173rd Airborne Brigade is an Regular Army unit based in Italy, not National Guard.

Blogger Akulkis March 03, 2015 7:34 PM  

Idiocy. What geopolitical genius (moron) came up with this? And this idea had to get through multiple layers of idiots to actually come to fruition.

All it takes is ONE idiot POTUS

Which we have.

Blogger Akulkis March 03, 2015 7:45 PM  

"At this point, the move of a professional troll would be to move his forces in such a way that they are an obvious threat to the American forces, but only if they engage in the war. Not if they stay in the West, which is what they said they would. USA would then have no basis in protesting.

I don't know what this move would be, but I have a hunch it would involve Crimea. Which Russia could credibly claim to just be any old place in Russia for it to keep its forces."


Kaliningrad Ob'last, I believe it's called -- it's the ob'last seperated from, and to the west of Russia proper, on the southern shore of the Baltic Sea)

Blogger Akulkis March 03, 2015 7:48 PM  

"So we have the core of the democratic and the core of the republican parties."

But neither of those groups would enlist for anything.

Blogger Nate March 03, 2015 9:30 PM  

"Nate, look at the Super Bowl. A bad plan is more likely to fail. A bad plan is only better than no plan. A bad plan that's revised to a good plan us a good thing.'

Again.. you're thinking in a very binary way. This isn't binary. There are 2 axis. Execution... and strategy.

If the strategy is bad but the execution is good... you will still win more than you lose. For example.. look at the ravens and titans of the early 2000s. Crappy outdated offensive schemes... still won 13 games based simply on execution.

Anonymous Jack Amok March 03, 2015 10:41 PM  

look at the Super Bowl. A bad plan is more likely to fail. A bad plan is only better than no plan.

Ha, but you don't understand. The guy who came up with that plan, The Idiot Bevell, thought it was a good plan. Even though it relied on a 4th string WR on a team not known for a great receiving corps to execute a play that he was known to be poor at executing, The Idiot Bevell thought The Plan would catch the defense by surprise!

That's the thing with plans and execution. Good plans are the ones that the people you have can execute well. Poor plans are the ones that require journeyman special team gunners to execute like Pro Bowl slot receivers.

Blogger bob k. mando March 03, 2015 10:52 PM  

jmyron March 03, 2015 12:00 PM
Not so - the Vast majority of Iraqi tanks taken out in the Gulf War and Iraqi freedom were destroyed by our tanks.


Stilicho March 03, 2015 12:17 PM
The tank platoon attached to my battalion did very little but burn vast quantities of fuel.



sorry myron, i'm going to need to see some documentation. the Highway of Death ( yes, overall a small part of the war ) was all air power.

i would expect most of whatever armor engagements we did have to have been in the vicinity of Baghdad or in the initial assault when we jumped the border.

any direct engagements otherwise would have been Iraqi armor in hull down concealment positions getting encircled because it was completely impossible for Iraqi forces to move in any coordinated fashion.

couple the zero concealment offered by desert terrain with our absolute air superiority and we were blowing stuff up 24 / 7 *from the air*.

it was so bad that, if you remember, Iraqis were trying to surrender to helicopters.

Anonymous CorkyAgain March 03, 2015 11:37 PM  

The argument about plans vs execution reminds me that the biggest problem the Ukrainians seem to have in their fight with Novorussia is the leadership at the colonel level and above. Is the US also going to take a leading role in planning and organizing the next campaign (probably late spring/early summer), or will these advisors limit themselves to tactical training?

Anonymous Big Bill March 04, 2015 12:07 AM  

"It is my opinion, the people of the Ukraine are sincere and willing to fight."

Which "Ukrainians" are you talking about? The Galician Ukrainians, the Ruthenian Ukrainians, the Polish Ukrainians, the Bessarabian Ukrainians, the Russian Ukrainians, The Romanian Ukrainians, or the Transnistrian Ukrainians?

Are they the Catholic Ukrainians, the Greek Orthodox Ukrainians, the Russian Orthodox Ukrainians or the Old Order Ukrainians?

Blogger jmyron March 04, 2015 11:14 AM  

@bob k. mando

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/ground-equipment-intro.htm

Air power accounted for between 1000 and 1800 Iraqi tanks in the Weeks leading up to the ground campaign in the Gulf War. Ground forces accounted for more tanks in a matter of days during the ground campaign (2100+ by the lowest estimate).

But this doesn't tell the whole story, Iraq's armored formations were largely still intact and combat-worthy at the beginning of the ground campaign (again, after weeks of air bombardment). Once the ground campaign began, the armored forces attacked by our armored brigades were wiped out in minutes.

http://www.comw.org/rma/fulltext/victory.html
http://www.3ad.com/history/gulf.war/feature.pages/correcting.myths.htm

The highway of death would never have happened had the Iraqi forces not been forced into retreat by our armor.

So yes, we were blowing stuff up from the air 24/7, but not as fast as our tanks were blowing stuff up on the ground once the ground war started. Air power works great, and can shift the balance on the battlefield, but it cannot replace heavy armor.

Also, keep in mind that the situation is very different with an army (like Russia's) which is equipped with relatively modern tanks equipped with laminate armor, ERA, active protection systems, and other countermeasures that can generally shrug off hits from Hellfire and TOW missiles.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza March 04, 2015 12:34 PM  

wonderful!

Putin will triumph while poor deceived Ukraine works with the IMF.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza March 04, 2015 12:40 PM  

My comment was too broad, Big Bill has a point.

V Putin and their fatherland have a return to church,a revival almost, he wants his people back to church. Russia wants zero to do with banks. however, a separation of power or something like that is needed for nationalist cohesion(?).

May Russia triumph and Ukraine see the errors of their way. The false flag framing or accusing V Putin of a current matter is a farce.

Anonymous Stilicho March 04, 2015 1:20 PM  


The highway of death would never have happened had the Iraqi forces not been forced into retreat by our armor.


What armor, specifically, are you referring to?

Blogger jmyron March 04, 2015 2:33 PM  

What armor, specifically, are you referring to?

1st and 3rd Armored divisions, 1st Cavalry Divisions, 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment, UK 1st Armored Division, plus some Arab armored divisions.

Anonymous Stilicho March 04, 2015 3:58 PM  

1st and 3rd Armored divisions, 1st Cavalry Divisions, 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment, UK 1st Armored Division, plus some Arab armored divisions.

The highway of death runs through Kuwait to the Iraqi border. The 1st and 2nd Marine Divisions liberated Kuwait, driving those Iraqi forces into retreat along the highway of death. Each division does have an armored battalion and, IIRC some tanks from the Army's 2nd armored brigade were on loan to 1 MEF. I'm not aware of any of those other units operating in Kuwait. The Arabs followed along behind after U.S. troops cleared the areas. At one point, we had to pull out of Kuwait City after clearing it so that various Arab units could "liberate" it via parading down the main drag.

When our armored units went up against Iraqi armor, they destroyed them. So did the LAV and Cobra hunter teams. One of my fondest memories is watching an LAV 25 blow the ever-loving shit out of a T64 that tried to take it on. Better Soviet armor would have been more difficult and costly to overcome, but not impossibly so. Having tanks yourself makes this easier, but munitions and armor are in a constant race where munitions have an advantage in cost and the fact that they don't have to destroy tanks, just immobilize them. Even if only temporarily.

Our attack on Kuwait was one of the most successful feints in history. Almost too successful because the unanticipated speed of advance required the Army's timetable to be moved up on their advance into Iraq. But that's the hallmark of maneuver warfare.

Anonymous American Kulak March 04, 2015 8:35 PM  

Hi Steve Moss,

I lurked on this thread for a few days but finally got to the computer to leave a comment -- I hate trying to comment from the iToy.

You mentioned this point about the Ukrainian attorneys who visited the US that you were truly impressed with:

"3. Wanted to separate themselves from the Russian sphere of influence; they wanted a truly independent Ukraine that was more West than East."

And several others brought up the valid point that despite all the cheery pronouncements from Amb. Geoffy Pyatt and President Poroshenko about Ukraine being more united than ever that there are many 'Ukraines' (the word itself means Borderland so one is saying 'many borderlands'). There's Galicia centered on Lviv and Kiev which are staunchly pro-'ATO'. There's the countryside that has born the brunt of the draft and is therefore much more ambivalent if not hostile to Kiev's war on the Donbass as a poor man's fight. Then there's Crimea which was always predominantly Russian dating back as many years as the US has existed as a country and the Donbass which is closely tied to Russia but not as pro-Russian uniformly as Crimea, hence Putin's refusal to annex it or to openly send peacekeepers despite all the horrific shelling Kiev has perpetrated against those people. You said that the most pro-Russian of the Ukrainian delegation also seemed the least capable, but the economic collapse we now see underway in Ukraine stripped off the Crimea tourist trade without Donbass coal for its factories suggests strongly that the East was in fact the most economically productive part of the country, even if naturally the 'skim' by oligarchs and criminals was also among the strongest in the country in the East Dnepropetrovsk included. When Ukrainian (the more accurate term would be Galician) ultranationalists among the Ukro-Diaspora like Taras Kuzio boldly pronounced in April that perhaps the rest of Ukraine would be better off without the drag of the 'sovok' mentality rust belt in Donbass, I knew he was lying then because the Ukrainian state was desperately trying to marshal enough forces to fight to hang on to that same 'rust belt'. I also suspect that Lviv's per capita GDP numbers are highly inflated by wash trades with the Poles and some back office IT work, but as of 2010 the wages in the western Ukrainian/Galician capital were still 1/3rd of the Moscow level and roughly half of St. Petersburg and two thirds of Kiev levels.

It seems to me while the Ukrainians have many commendable qualities -- beautiful women, toughness, and willingness to endure great hardships for what they believe in as on the Maidan -- their belief in their own uniqueness or special shrewd ability to outsmart everyone else leads to their downfall. What I mean by that is that not only Yanukovich but also his opponents expected someone else -- Russia, the EU, or the Americans -- to ride to the rescue and bail them out. It's hard for me to feel sorry for all those Ukrainian students who waved EU flags on the Maidan only to find out they can't even get Schengen visas to visit Poland, as the Poles rightly suspect the Ukrainians will try to stay legally (in the case of the girls by marrying Polish or German men) or the guys illegally to work. The Russians even have a cruel but somewhat true joke about the Ukrainians tendency to screw each other over, which in my mind makes them sort of the Mexicans of the Slavic world -- "one Ukrainian=partisan. Two Ukrainians=partisan squad. Three Ukrainians=partisan squad with traitor". There has to be some reason why all those hetamans were constantly backstabbing or betraying each other besides the accursed Moskals down through the centuries!

Anonymous American Kulak March 04, 2015 8:43 PM  

Forgive the few typos in the above. But once again, I'll say this: the Ukrainians are the people the Polack jokes were actually about. Because there's a very good reason the Poles and Lithuanians ruled them for centuries and the Ukrainian identity which was in reality simply a Kievan Rus legacy or Cossack identity remained weak as compared to that of the Poles or Russians. Because there's a Cossack idea of constantly seeking to align oneself with one great power against another rather than relying on one's own resources. In the 1600-1700s that probably made sense because a truly independent hetamanate without Russian 'protection' was impossible. But it seems the Maidanists tragically never got the memo about all the lovely things the EU has done for Spain, Italy and Greece, or simply assumed that ANYTHING must be better than remaining a 'Russian satellite' under Yanukovich despite the fact that Yanuk provided cheap gas and in no way prevented greater economic integration with Europe. There was no way Yanuk was going to be able to sign a deal with the Eurasian Economic Union to keep out European goods, but at the same time the Maidan was based on the maximalist demand that Ukraine integrate with the EU as rapidly as possible despite not having the functioning legal or banking system with which to do so and the consequences of de-industrializing the Russian-speaking East.

Even today the pro-western Ukrainians bitterly complain that the US has not provided enough support, everything up to Americans risking their lives near the front lines (we do know that there have been Polish, Lithuanian 'volunteers' or mercs fighting alongside the Ukrainians and at least one Brit and one American caught on video outside Mariupol two weeks ago). They don't like discussing whether the spectacular incompetence of the Poroshenko regime and its generals should lead them to question whether the US should continue throwing good money and weapons after bad in the failed campaign to reclaim Donbass (the Novorossiya Armed Forces or NAF recently paraded around Debaltsevo in a captured Humvee and showed off to LifeNews.ru cameras the US-provided counterbattery radar which had apparently received little use in action or was still in the plastic wrapping!).

These same Ukrainians ranting about how Putin supposedly sent his entire army to fight them only to be foiled by a few plucky 'cyborgs' and Azov Battalion Nazis defending the airport and Mariupol also seem to be in fanatical denial about the shocking scope of Ukrainian casualties. They're only willing to admit to at the most 3,000 dead Ukrainian soldiers in this war, about double the official Poroshenko and Kyiv Post figure, when the real numbers probably exceed 12,000 or more after the Donetsk Airport and Debaltseve slaughters. The ugly truth is Kiev has been taking murderous casualties since late July of last year with only two ceasefires as temporary respites from the daily toll of 15-20 combat deaths or irreplacably wounded per day. You can do the math on that. Unfortunately US mainstream media either have no interest in the story, preferring to chase the few hundred Russian active duty servicemen combat deaths in Ukraine, or they're actively colluding with Kiev in the cover up.

Anonymous American Kulak March 04, 2015 8:58 PM  

Finally while Vox Day perhaps was being a bit silly to speculate about any risks to the US 172nd Airborne troops deploying to Lviv hundreds of miles from the front lines or Crimea, he's not wrong to think the Russians will find a way to express their displeasure about the US presence. We could see everything from protests by pro-Russian ethnic Rusyns in the Carpathian mountains to the southeast of Lviv to the deployment of Russian bombers violating Moldovan air space to reach the TransDniestr enclave where there are about 2,000 Russian peacekeepers and maximally publicizing the SU-30s and SU-24s on the tarmac capable of launching supersonic missiles at the US personnel in Western Ukraine (and consequently generating another Lt. Gen. Hodges rant about how the Germans and other NATO countries aren't pulling their weight in terms of spending: http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150304/1019064127.html).

US/UK mercs caught on camera in Mariupol -- note that many NATO trolls have tried to conflate American northeast accented 'outta my face' guy with Brit Chris 'Swampy' Garrett, who is 1) blonde 2) has a beard, which outta my face guy does not.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-11/400-blackwater-mercs-deployed-ukraine-against-separatists-german-press-reports
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-01-25/out-my-face-please-why-are-us-soldiers-mariupol
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3bf_1422135521
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R23NEPvGgw8
Pro-Russian rebels beating the crap out of an apparently captured American merc in Kharkov, April 2014 (this guy was probably covertly exchanged for a Russian spetsnaz operative)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYga2bowRT4

I also expect more leaks like this one from the 'CyberBerkut' (pro-Russian hackers who may just be the SVR/GRU's pet hackers) dumping details about a Tulsa, Oklahoma based private military contracting firm sending trainers close to the Donbass front lines to friendly sites like Colonel Cassad:

http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com/128427.html
HACKED: Tulsa-based Green Group's negotiations with the Kiev government to train Ukrainian soldiers in Donbass

US/UK MSM will of course continue to deny any and all evidence of NATO/US PMCs and not so covert boots on the ground anywhere besides the nice comfy training ranges of exurban Lviv where the GIs can head down to the bar every night to check out the local, ahem Ukrainian gal talent.

http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com/131304.html

More details about Polish mercs fighting for Kiev (in violation of Polish law, incidentally) here: http://russia-insider.com/en/politics_ukraine/2014/11/07/01-04-44pm/polish_mercenaries_and_arms_flood_ukraine_media_looks_other

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DIOfm5r8v8
'Ukrainian' National Guardsmen at Slavyansk can only speak broken Russian to the locals, speak English w/Polish accents, May 2014

'Ukrainian' National Guardsman speaking what Vox will probably find to be native level Italian at a checkpoint, May 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=en4h-VQh7TQ

Polish merc fighting for Kiev speaks Ukrainian, films self near frontlines of Donetsk Airport battle Kiev lost, and with the flag:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2HPVcInIQ8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzUFkSNOocM

Anonymous American Kulak March 04, 2015 9:08 PM  

The evidence MSM is either lying about or simply not interested in Ukrainian casualties that are order of magnitude higher than admitted, and correspond with the 50,000 total excess deaths caused by the conflict dating back to February of last year the German FAZ newspaper reported:

http://russia-insider.com/en/2015/02/02/3054
Ukraine's Army is Bleeding to Death

http://rt.com/news/227071-ukraine-troops-hide-losses/
Donetsk Airport meatgrinder

http://russia-insider.com/en/military_politics_ukraine_opinion_media_watch/2014/11/04/02-06-53pm/kiev_wildly_understating_combat
Ukrainians accusing their own government of lying about huge casualties including videos from the 79th and 30th UKR brigades

http://orientalreview.org/2014/10/09/the-juntas-military-debacle-in-the-eastern-ukraine/
Ukraine has witnessed the greatest rate of killing on the battlefield Europe has seen in 70 years (exceeding daily casualty rates for the Balkan wars of the 1990s)

http://russia-insider.com/en/2015/02/08/3243

The ObamaNation and its bipartisan Beltway bandits: truly prepared to fight Russia and pro-Russian Ukrainians to the last Ukrainian.

Blogger Knighterrant March 05, 2015 2:17 PM  

@American Kulak. Generally I'd agree that the U.S. training companies should be safe if they are in fact kept hundreds of miles from the lines but I have to wonder if that is in fact where they'll stay. Its not hard to envision a scenario where they're gradually moved into harms's way through a series of more aggressive training assignments and requests to aid in security efforts (competent and non-corrupt soldiers are in extremely short supply in Ukraine right now) either as a result of the lax incompetence that typifies everything Washington does these days or as part of an intentional ploy to get U.S. troops killed in hopes of inciting support among the useful idiots back home.

Anonymous CorkyAgain March 05, 2015 3:21 PM  

@Knighterrant,
Generally I'd agree that the U.S. training companies should be safe if they are in fact kept hundreds of miles from the lines but I have to wonder if that is in fact where they'll stay.

If memory serves, the advisors we sent to Vietnam were also supposed to stay out of combat. But they eventually got involved, if for no other reason than pride and a sense of comradeship with the men they trained. When your motto is "I'm not asking you to do anything I wouldn't do myself" it's kinda hard to stay in the rear areas.

Blogger Dewave March 06, 2015 9:39 AM  

"Tanks are also the best means of stopping other tanks"

Not generally true.

Artillery, tank destroyers, airpower, and concealed anti tank weaponry are all superior, often able to destroy the tank with impunity.

Anonymous Discard March 06, 2015 9:10 PM  

Dewave: Agreed. There's reason that tanks avoid entering built up areas without infantry support, and it's not the fear of running into other tanks.

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