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Sunday, March 29, 2015

Her precious....

You may recall that the Toad of Tor said this yesterday:
1. I have less power than I feel I should have.
2. I feel those people over there have power I don't have.
3. They must have stolen mine!
A clear case of psychological projection, one would have to conclude. Especially after reading her subsequent statement today:
"The Hugos don't belong to the set of all people who read the genre; they belong to the worldcon, and the people who attend and/or support it. The set of all people who read SF can start their own award."
- Teresa Nielsen Hayden, March 29, 2015, 03:43 PM
That's coming right from the Toad's mouth. And yet, here is what Sasquan itself has to say about the Hugo Awards.
Worldcons are the site of the Hugo Awards, the premier awards in the science fiction field, recognizing the greatest books and stories, related works, film, television, podcasts, and fan works.
So, we're supposed to believe that the premier awards that recognize the greatest books and stories in science fiction don't belong to the set of all science fiction readers?  Then what makes them "the premier awards"? Why are they even supposed to be relevant, if they mean nothing to anyone who isn't one of the small number of people who attend "the worldcon"?

Labels: ,

50 Comments:

Anonymous WinstonWebb March 29, 2015 7:03 PM  

I make my children do wall squats for such tantrums.

Anonymous Zippy March 29, 2015 7:24 PM  

The set of all people who support Worldcon is hardly very exclusive. It includes the set of all people willing to pay the small fee for a supporting membership. This may include those who haven't joined before.

Anonymous Who Dat March 29, 2015 7:26 PM  

Her quote makes me regret not paying the $40 to sign up and vote. You should save it and break it out next year when drumming up support for SP4 / RP2

Anonymous Will Best March 29, 2015 7:33 PM  

It is quite possible to be a premier award while not professing to speak for an entire group if you have a collection of well regarded experts or have otherwise earned a reputation. This is essentially the Academy's stance as it relates to the Oscars.

The only real problem with those two statements is that anybody can join the club for a few bucks.

Blogger Scintimandrion March 29, 2015 7:43 PM  

Will Best:

That's true, however the next question I would ask is whether the award is being given on the basis of criteria that are objective while also most easily assessed by the panel of experts. Otherwise, the award will likely lose prestige over time as the people at large gradually realise that it's merely a popularity contest in which some opinions are arbitrarily given more weight than others. Which is what I could see here - the claim being that Worldcon members are somehow uniquely qualified to determine what is "good science fiction" for no other reason than being "in the right crowd".

Anonymous Daniel March 29, 2015 7:51 PM  

Mike Glyer should be spinning in his grave: the one he dug for himself when he refused to go full-SJW. If he can swallow the Toad's rantings, that might just be enough to get them into their good graces.

But he would choke to death first. No mortal can consume such a bone of contention.

Anonymous Daniel March 29, 2015 7:53 PM  

"him" instead of "them" as in "get HIM into their good graces."

Blogger SolemnSentinel March 29, 2015 7:54 PM  

Something to add to the repertoire for when I have kids.

Blogger Expendable Faceless Minion March 29, 2015 7:59 PM  

Scintimandrion:

When I was young, and voraciously reading all the SF I could get my hands on, "Hugo Nominated/Winner" was a guaranteed sale for me. Later on, the word "Hugo" on the cover came to mean 'Avoid.' I have encountered many, many people who feel the same.

The losing of prestige over time is already well advanced.

Blogger grendel March 29, 2015 8:10 PM  

It's like clubbing baby seals, except without having to go outside and get cold. Toad: The awards belong to the worldcon supporters!
Ilk: I have paid my $40 to become an official worldcon supporter. Here is my badge and decoder ring.
Toad: Check your privilege you ballot-stuffing cisfascist racist!

Blogger Thucydides March 29, 2015 8:15 PM  

Whom the Gods destroy they first make mad....

Since the SJW's have handed us the weapons of their own destruction, we should use them wisely and well. $40 to become a member seems to be an acceptable price to swing the hammer....

Blogger Migly March 29, 2015 8:20 PM  

"So, we're supposed to believe that the premier awards that recognize the greatest books and stories in science fiction don't belong to the set of all science fiction readers?"

Yes, and you already proved the case when you published instructions on how to join the Worldcon. Without a membership in the Worldcon, Rabid Puppies cannot vote.

If the award belonged to everyone already, that step would not be required.

Once you have a membership in the Worldcon you are a member of the award-owning body.

The Hugo is a service mark of the Worldcon. The categories were invented by the Worldcon. The rules are proposed and passed at Worldcon business meetings by votes of members. The rockets and award bases are paid for by the Worldcon, and presented at a ceremony in facilities hired by the Worldcon.

Blogger Cataline Sergius March 29, 2015 8:20 PM  

Baroness Harkonnen either has given herself a suspensor belt wedgie or she is laying the ground work for some very disappointing news.

It doesn't really take a lot to tip the Hugos. While I rather doubt that we swept the field. I have the feeling that she thinks the sad puppies, are well represented on the ballot and have a decent chance to land one.

Even one Sad Puppy Hugo would be as devastating to the Anwar Al SJW, as the loss of Spain was to the Caliphate.

Next Saturday will be...interesting.

Anonymous VD March 29, 2015 8:25 PM  

What she wants is a juried award, staffed by a jury of her own choosing, which nevertheless has all the broad democratic legitimacy of a popular vote. Or to put it more generally, she wants to have her fly and eat it too.

Blogger Markku March 29, 2015 8:30 PM  

they belong to the worldcon

Know what the WorldCon doesn't belong to? Tor.

Anonymous Giuseppe March 29, 2015 8:40 PM  

Easy fix. We should all refer to the Hugos from now on as "The Worldcon award"
Given for attendance, toadying, sucking up and doing "correct-think" as defined by the modulating Chuthulian award issuers of Worldcon.

Blogger Markku March 29, 2015 8:44 PM  

She speaks as if she has ANY say over the issue. She represents one of the friggin' contenders. And now, as one of the contenders, she would like to control who gets the award? This is, shall we say, not an unforeseen strategy.

Blogger MidKnight March 29, 2015 8:51 PM  

The commentary popping up related to SP3 is surprising even my jaded self. Blatant projection - as has been noted the Toad's own 3-step is a picture perfect definition of "Patriarchy" as used by feminists - and outright lies... including accusing SP 3 participants of being HAPPY that we knocked women off the potential nominee list. "Icon on the cake" as it were.

Leave aside that some of the participants ARE women and that we've nominated women, I can't think of anyone around here who cares if the author is a woman or not. THAT IS THE ENTIRE POINT.

Oh, I forgot, we're evil, so we don't mean what we say.

But no - we don't agree with politics first, so we must be "against 'x'" and happy to see innocents suffer simply because of their gender/whatever.

Blogger MidKnight March 29, 2015 8:55 PM  

@Migly

Correct on a technicality - but the problem here is that the WRONG KIND of people are now joining Worldcon.

At least as far as she is concerned.

Me? I'm having fun.

Blogger mmaier2112 March 29, 2015 8:58 PM  

This toad is making me wish I'd just bought the membership. I didn't because I'm already massively behind on my reading and I didn't feel like fair to vote without reading the relevant entries.

Now I wish I'd just bought it, downloaded everything and voted straight Rabid Puppies ticket.

Anonymous Scintan March 29, 2015 9:03 PM  


Yes, and you already proved the case when you published instructions on how to join the Worldcon. Without a membership in the Worldcon, Rabid Puppies cannot vote.


Care to guess on how we know that you, whether deliberately or not, don't get the point?

OpenID malcolmthecynic March 29, 2015 9:05 PM  

The truth finally comes out.

Blogger Migly March 29, 2015 9:11 PM  

Malcolmthecynic: I didn't want to disappoint Daniel. Or at least disappoint him in a way I don't intend to. ;-)

Blogger Markku March 29, 2015 9:12 PM  

I mean, all this talk is SO nothing at all. What contender wouldn't like to control who gets the awards? There is no reason to get all worked up at WorldCon just because one of the publishers would like to change the system in such a way that it would make easier for that publisher to get awards.

Blogger George March 29, 2015 9:14 PM  

There have been a couple of comments by folks about missing the deadline to vote for the Hugo Awards. There is plenty of time to get a registration for the Awards, all you have missed is the nominations.

To vote for the awards you need to be a supporting member of Sasquan (cost $40). Here is a link to the registration page:

https://sasquan.swoc.us/sasquan/reg.php

And remember registering for Sasquan makes eligible to nominate next year for Sad Puppy 4/Rabid Puppy 2.

Blogger bob k. mando March 29, 2015 9:24 PM  

Migly March 29, 2015 8:20 PM
If the award belonged to everyone already, that step would not be required.



'belongs to the set of' /= 'ownership'

your lack of language comprehension has already doomed your response to irrelevance.

but, let's go with that argument just to follow it out to the logical conclusion:
by the argument of Migly and the Toad of Whor, that ONLY Worldcon members should have any interest in what works receive the Hugo
THEREFORE
the wider skiffy fandom should never have taken any interest in or bothered purchasing the works so fêted.

because they don't "own" it.

bravo, well done.

and the "qualifications" of Worldcon members? that they were willing to shell out 40 bucks? and that's it? oh, they also bothered to fill out a ballot.

hotay, you make a good argument that the Hugo is a shit award, awarded by shitvoters to shitlib fiction.

Anonymous p-dawg March 29, 2015 9:41 PM  

@Migly: Therefore, any member of worldcon is a valid voter for the Hugo awards. Thanks!

Blogger Nate March 29, 2015 9:48 PM  

the bitter little SJW nerds were happy ruling their little kingdom... and now... they panicking... because the walls are getting kicked down.

Blogger Migly March 29, 2015 9:55 PM  

@bob: Makes me sad that doesn't even require an answer.

@p-dawg: But you and I can both give thanks for tautologies. Unlike bob, we have not refused to belong to a club that will have us as members.

Anonymous p-dawg March 29, 2015 10:33 PM  

@Migly: Ah, it's not a tautology, you see, if you believe that there is a difference between "good" worldcon members and "bad" ones. I don't, but others do. As an aside, I am a bit confused as to how you know to which clubs I do or do not belong. Do you work for the NSA? Mossad? KGB? Jesuits? Some other shadowy secret society? If you're watching me right now, then you know how many finger I'm holding up.

Blogger Zeke OF Confettii March 29, 2015 11:09 PM  

Science Fiction is what S F fans like, and I damn well knew there were more than 5800 enthusiastic readers of SF in 1986. There wasn't a ... mechanism for getting more to participate. Now ... well, I am scratching rude remarks on an electronic wall operated my a man halfway across the world.
There is only One Being who owns Creativity, and I don't think it's the being these people see in the mirror, it sure isn't the one I see.
Let the puppies out!

Anonymous Daniel March 29, 2015 11:24 PM  

Dear Toad,

We don't want the whole Worldcon.

Only your half.

Sincerely,

A Dinosaur, Your Love

Blogger bob k. mando March 29, 2015 11:31 PM  

Migly March 29, 2015 9:55 PM
Makes me sad that doesn't even require an answer.


*shrugs*

you're going to refuse to deal with the actual argument Vox made and then complain about *my* response?

gosh, i suppose you're not going to sleep with me now?

you asserted that you were NOT SJW but that we catapulted you over the wall at them.

first step to not being and SJW is ... not arguing like an SJW.


Migly March 29, 2015 9:55 PM
Unlike bob, we have not refused to belong to a club that will have us as members.



not sure what you're talking about. i haven't "refused" membership in Worldcon.

Blogger Migly March 30, 2015 12:01 AM  

"by the argument of Migly and the Toad of Whor, that ONLY Worldcon members should have any interest in what works receive the Hugo"

Bob: Putting my name on your strawman argument doesn't magically turn it into a position I've advocated.

Blogger bob k. mando March 30, 2015 12:07 AM  

Migly March 30, 2015 12:01 AM
Bob: Putting my name on your strawman argument doesn't magically turn it into a position I've advocated.



i copy/pasted the quote straight from your post.

Vox made NO arguments considering 'ownership' of the award.

you rebutted an argument that never existed by claiming that he had.

yeah.

you just went *poof*.

it's always cute when you try to accuse others of doing exactly what you have just done.

Anonymous pseudotsuga March 30, 2015 12:44 AM  

Y'know, in some ways this is like voting in local/state/national elections: maybe your candidate doesn't win, but by Grabthar's Hammer, it does help tilt things less one way.
And the more single drops on that balance, the more balanced it gets. That's all we "true" SF&F fans want to see: the actual balance. We want actual quality of story, grandeur in thought, power in prose. If the award has not been going to that, then it's a pale shadow of what it was meant to be.

Blogger Eric March 30, 2015 1:58 AM  

A clear case of psychological projection, one would have to conclude.

Ever listen to an SJW talk about economics? That's exactly the logic.

Anonymous Daniel March 30, 2015 2:02 AM  

It is worse than that, pseudotsuga: the award very well may have been going to the the best of what made it through the traditional publishing houses.

From Dune to Redshirts...that's a damn hard fall for an industry. Not unprecedented, though. Moonwalks in 69 became space shuttle boomerang flights that weren't much more than glorified John Glenn runs by the 1980s.

It is equally damning (and amusing) that the most literate works on last year's slate finished 6th out of 5. Not only are the old school SJW voters general SF dullards, but they are hopelessly innumerate.

Blogger ray March 30, 2015 2:18 AM  

Meet the new world con. Same as the old world con.

Anonymous pseudotsuga March 30, 2015 3:04 AM  

Daniel, "Moonwalks in 69 became space shuttle boomerang flights that weren't much more than glorified John Glenn runs by the 1980s."
Ouch...I never thought of it that way. Of course, we do have miniaturized computers here in the future, which are quite an accomplishment. But the comparison is apt.

Blogger James Dixon March 30, 2015 9:02 AM  

> Now I wish I'd just bought it, downloaded everything and voted straight Rabid Puppies ticket.

Everyone here is going to be accused of doing that anyway.

Blogger bob k. mando March 30, 2015 10:49 AM  

James Dixon March 30, 2015 9:02 AM
Everyone here is going to be accused of doing that anyway.


if you remember, that was Migly's starting position.

only, he was talking about the Sad Puppies slate and ignoring the existence of the Rabid Puppies slate.

oh noes, oh noes, my Masters have given me conflicting instructions. whatever shall i do?

perhaps ... read the works in question and then vote on the merits?

oh, come now. that's just crazy talk.

Blogger James Dixon March 30, 2015 11:17 AM  

> ...oh, come now. that's just crazy talk.

Might as well be, yes. It's not like any of them do it. But that is the classical solution.

Blogger Danby March 30, 2015 11:27 AM  

Why, oh why does PNH hate puppies so? They are so sad. Such sad little puppies. All they want is for Hugo awards to go to the very best books and stories in SFF. Instead, Ms Hayden kick the poor sad little puppies and tries to give the Hugos to abominable dreck, as has been done for the last 30 years at least.

30 years of kicking puppies. Will it never end?

Making omelettes may require the breaking of eggs, but surely the awarding of Hugos does not require the kicking of puppies.

Think of the puppies!

Blogger Anthony March 30, 2015 1:35 PM  

So I visited ML for the first time in *ages* (I'd stopped reading when I realized that PNH and TNH were not actually interested in hearing from people who disagreed, sort of like Brad DeLong, but less accomplished), and saw, before Brad showed up in comments, something interesting: PNH said that 2 Best Novel nominees were *not* Sad Puppies. My guess is that he was informed that two Tor books not on the SP slate are nominees.

Blogger John Wright March 30, 2015 1:37 PM  

"Y'know, in some ways this is like voting in local/state/national elections: maybe your candidate doesn't win, but by Grabthar's Hammer, it does help tilt things less one way. "

Kull Wahad and Noy Jitat! I feel that anyone who employs utterly imaginary oaths when discussing science fiction deserves a gold star, by Vectron's Kindly Claw!

Blogger Vox March 30, 2015 1:57 PM  

My guess is that he was informed that two Tor books not on the SP slate are nominees.

There are several possibilities. It's probably one of these four: Ancillary Sword, The Goblin Emperor, Annihiliation, or The Three-Body Problem. I hope it's the latter; I would have put it on RP if I had read it sooner.

Anonymous Murgy Troyd March 30, 2015 2:35 PM  

Sorry, VD. You *can't* actually like a book the Right People™ have declared you hate.
You haven't obtained explicit permission from the author to like their work. (Or you would have said so, even before the question was raised.)
And further....person of color....non Anglo Imperialistic POV...
"Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer true... Good Morning Dr. Chandra.I'm ready for my first lesson now."
You Broke HAL! :-P

Blogger Quadko March 30, 2015 4:13 PM  

Boy, she woke up on the wrong side of the bed.
"Tried democracy. Didn't get my way. Now imposing dictatorship."

What's next, the Tor award list of bestsellers? Positive side - don't have to buy way onto NYT list. Win "best publisher" every year. Call ourselves "most prestigious award eveh". Negative side - do we have to let the grubby people into our -con? Can't it just be an in-house author & publisher vote? Whatdayamean, "legitimacy"?

by Grabthar's Hammer
You shall be avenged! Ha! Going to have to watch that again now. Nice.

Blogger epobirs April 02, 2015 6:47 AM  

Once upon a time I thought the Hugos mattered. This was when I was quite young and hadn't the wherewithal to participate in fandom. Of course, back then, a fast reader could be extremely well read in SF in a few years.

A few years later I had the mobility of a driver's license and heard about the major club in my region. I got to know a lot of SMOFs and pros pretty well, along with a significant portion of those who'd attend a Worldcon, especially one within inexpensive reach of the Southwest.

A lot of these people were utter basket cases. And this is coming from a guy whose life was in complete disarray.

The first time I went to a Worldcon my worst fears were confirmed. It was the same crowd, drawn from all over the country. I began to realize why a lot of people who I knew read SF didn't draw attention to it and couldn't be enticed to come with me to the club. I felt this way while being conscious of the club being one of the few place I'd ever fit in. I used to explain it to outsiders by saying, "You know that old Groucho line about not joining any club that would have me for a member? Well, this is that club." That is as close as I could come to putting it in any sensible terms.

So I went to some Worldcons, voted some Hugos, and even helped build them one year. (The Chesney Bonestell landscape on a film reel. 1996 IIRC.)

One reason I gave up on attending is I kept finding myself in the same conversation. A friend would bemoan their dire finances but a few minutes later begin talking about their plans for the next big fannish thing, which was going to incur a pile of debt they simply couldn't afford. But it meant they were voting for the Hugos.

I'd also come to notice some of the pros who were VERY BIG NAMES among fandom were barely scraping by. A very few were genuinely selling lots of books but even most of them had other jobs and sources of income. I saw that you could be a titan to the insular fandom community and still be just one medical emergency or other misfortune away from the welfare rolls. (If you were good at talking to Hollywood producers or your agent was, that one deal could bring in more that every print sale you'd ever make combined.)

So, by the late 90s, I found I didn't only have no idea what was on the shortlist for Hugo contenders, I didn't care. I'd seen how the sausage was made. I didn't stop eating the sausage but I lost my illusions about whether those words on the wrapper were any guarantee of superiority. The sausage would likely be good but vast amounts of other very good sausage would never get to bear the same prestigious words on the wrapper. (Lovely metaphor, I know.)

To me the ultimate sausage is 'Red Shirts.' Has there ever been a Best Novel winner more calculated to appeal to the tiny group that votes on the Hugos? It was the SF equivalent of Al Yankovic doing a double album parody of Tommy. Or if an entry in the Scary Movie franchise took Best Picture at the Oscars.

Something went badly wrong in the process. Twenty years ago it would have made for interesting gossip at a club meeting but now it's just a reminder of why I left.

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