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Monday, March 09, 2015

I can't even... what... this...

This is perhaps the most amusingly awesome introduction to Nietzsche I have ever seen.




And to think they say games aren't educational.

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79 Comments:

Blogger bob k. mando March 09, 2015 1:16 PM  

to blame the exaltation of weakness on Christianity is to presume that, prior to Christianity, lambs didn't exist.

so much for Nietzsche as a 'great philosopher'.

Blogger Laguna Beach Fogey March 09, 2015 1:18 PM  

It's the exaltation of it that rankles.

Blogger Bradly Hogland March 09, 2015 1:18 PM  

When I was a teen, I remember getting a trophy in baseball when my team came in last place. I felt it wasn't deserved and went home and tossed out all my older trophies feeling they were all meaningless. Never much cared to earn another trophy after that, it was pointless.

Anonymous Salt March 09, 2015 1:28 PM  

Emotional biscuits.

Anonymous sawtooth March 09, 2015 1:45 PM  

With advancing age, the bird of prey becomes...the prey.

Animals in the wild never die of old age.

We all grow weak in due time.

Blogger wrf3 March 09, 2015 1:56 PM  

Nietzsche used cross-species behavior as a way to theorize about intra-species morality. That's not how it works. That's why he came up with the "will to power" instead of the "will to love."

Blogger Corvinus March 09, 2015 2:01 PM  

It's funny how current SJWism is far closer to Nietzsche's misconception of Christianity than the real historical Christianity was.

Blogger Brad Andrews March 09, 2015 2:07 PM  

We protect the weak sheep so we can take their wool or possibly eat them ourselves later.

Nice video, bad philosophy.

Anonymous Roundtine March 09, 2015 2:11 PM  

That video should be titled, "Why Megaman is better than Nietzsche"

Blogger Yohami March 09, 2015 2:14 PM  

Interesting ideas from somebody who doesnt understand what he's talking about

Anonymous HiYOOOOO March 09, 2015 2:20 PM  

At the end of his life... once he had full integrated his ideas into his life... Nietzsche became a drooling criple, reliant on kind relatives to change his diapers.

In short, Nietzsche became Andrew Marston.

Anonymous Kyle March 09, 2015 2:28 PM  

Cool video, but the problems with the philosophy aren't hard to see. For one thing, the analogy breaks down because animals aren't moral agents and aren't capable of "right" or "wrong." A person who dies from being mauled by a bear is no more a victim of "evil" than if he gets killed by a landslide. They're both naturally-occurring events - not to say that either case isn't a tragedy.

As Corvinus pointed out, his idea of Christianity looks a lot more like Progressivism than anything resembling actual Christianity.

Blogger slarrow March 09, 2015 2:46 PM  

Ah, 8-Bit Philosophy! That's a good way to eat up several hours. Their first one was Plato's allegory of the cave with The Legend of Zelda. They've got some fun ones: de Beauvior and Metroid, Sartre and Final Fantasy, Marx and Super Mario Bros.

They got started, if memory serves, with Thug Notes. A gangsta type (Sparky Sweets, Ph.D.) does book summaries of classical texts. Surprisingly cogent, given the presentation style.

Anonymous kfg March 09, 2015 2:47 PM  

In what dominant culture did Progressivism arise?

Anonymous Sensei March 09, 2015 2:51 PM  

Ha, I found these a couple months back. Awesome series.

Almost as amusing as the video are the kneejerk explanations of why Nietzsche was wrong... Of course he was very wrong about many things, as were many philosophers covered by the 8 Bit Philosophy series, the point is that it's a highly entertaining way of explaining their philosophies, yes?

Anonymous Sensei March 09, 2015 2:54 PM  

Ha, I found these a couple months back. Awesome series.

Almost as amusing as the video are the kneejerk explanations of why Nietzsche was wrong... Of course he was very wrong about many things, as were many philosophers covered by the 8 Bit Philosophy series, the point is that it's a highly entertaining way of explaining their philosophies, yes?

Blogger DJ | AMDG March 09, 2015 2:57 PM  

Not sure where I read/heard this recently. Maybe here. In regards to Jesus saying, "Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last. So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen," and further references prescribing a kind of "servant leadership." No where does Jesus or the Apostles say/write "being first is bad." Scripture just describes how one becomes first in The Kingdom.

$0.02

Blogger bob k. mando March 09, 2015 3:05 PM  

kfg March 09, 2015 2:47 PM
In what dominant culture did Progressivism arise?



pretty much as irrelevant as you can get, and the same error Nietzsche was making ( assuming that this video isn't misrepresenting significant aspects of his thought ).

Aristotle identified the dialectical ( intellectually competent ) / rhetorical ( intellectually incompetent ) divide hundreds of years before Christ was born.

societies have been dealing with the rise of the competent and subsequent destruction of all that they built by the later incompetent ( but socially adept ) courtiers since the beginning of history. ( ie - thousands of years before 0 A.D. )

to blame Christianity or Progressivism as the *original* cause of the problem is laughably stupid. they are merely the latest iterations of the emotive, rabbit strategery of Life.

do you want to critique Christianity or Progressivism as dangerously serving the r-type life philosophy? then make that argument.

don't try to ascribe to them things which existed long before they were created.

Anonymous kfg March 09, 2015 3:13 PM  

"Aristotle identified the dialectical . . . divide hundreds of years before Christ was born."

As I have pointed out many times to those who make the claim that the pagans contributed nothing to Western culture.

" . . . do you want to critique Christianity . . ."

Yes. It is only through understanding ones weaknesses that one may guard against them. I am unconvinced that The Renaissance, Enlightenment and Progressivism did not arise among the head hunters of New Guinea is a mere coincidence.

Blogger The Deuce March 09, 2015 3:15 PM  

Speaking of which, make sure to visit The Escapist daily, it being the one big games media outlet which has basically gone pro-GamerGate, much to the impotent shrieking outrage of SJWs everywhere.

Blogger SmokeyJoe March 09, 2015 3:21 PM  

"As Corvinus pointed out, his idea of Christianity looks a lot more like Progressivism than anything resembling actual Christianity."

Feminization of Christianity, the megachurch mainstream version, and the use of the word 'sheep' would skew the understanding of Christianity to outsiders.

Turn the other cheek givess many the view of weakness. The many not realizing the one you struck only has two cheeks. Proceed at your own peril.

What would Jesus do? Flipping tables and taking a whip to the offensive is not out of the question.

Anonymous BB March 09, 2015 3:25 PM  

I'm not a big connoisseur, but I will admit a huge fascination that gripped me when reading his lines. His style is such that he will often take these tiny word particles we use, but usually don't think about, and then triple-charge them with their original meaning or infuse them with one that's usually not implied:

"Unsere Pflichten, das sind die Rechte anderer auf uns."
"Alles Fertige wird angestaunt, alles Werdende unterschätzt."

That's for his aphorisms, which work well in English too (just remembering this from reading Human, All Too Human).

But the real meat is in his prose, which is of a force I have seen nowhere else in German literature. It's said that he revered Goethe as the greatest German writer, which I would agree with, but where Goethe is all cultivation and playfullness (I am almost tempted to say 'amused mastery'), Nietzsche is raw creativity and forcefulness, a driven mind that not so much as arranges words, but feverishly conquers sentences and bids semantics oblige his will. Not so sure how Zarathustra holds up in translation.

That said, yeah even though I like him for his refined faculty of observation and Wortgewalt, his philosophy includes degenerate egotism and atheism (don't be fooled by people who claim he merely had some third character in Zarathustra proclaim the death of god; he's a proper infidel, and used strawman arguments against Christianity, as others here have pointed out).

I guess I'm trying to say he was a better poet than philosopher. And though it may not be the most sophisticated remark, I think the guy simply needed a son or two. Merely seeing something growing and lusting for life unaxiomatically could have done wonders for a mind like his, and prevented his overanalysing of vitality (which is what that whole "Wille zur Macht" thing is about, though the original idea came from his mentor Schopenhauer). Most of his aphoristic stuff on women was on point too from a game perspective, so I'm not too sure what his problem was in regards to romance.

Anonymous Heaviside March 09, 2015 3:32 PM  

Believing that God is dead is not the same thing as "atheism".

Blogger Nate March 09, 2015 3:41 PM  

and so.. society is better because Mao killed 100,000,000 people... because... will to power.

Anonymous BB March 09, 2015 3:43 PM  

@ Heaviside

Yeah, I'm with you on that. But his position was not limited to that specific thought from Zarathustra, as people sometimes falsely claim. Consider this:

-"Gott ist eine faustgrobe Antwort, eine Undelicatesse gegen uns Denker – im Grunde sogar bloß ein faustgrobes Verbot an uns: Ihr sollt nicht denken!"

-"God is an overly coarse answer, a tastelessness against us thinkers - essentially simply an overly coarse prohibition on us: you shall not think!"

Anonymous A March 09, 2015 3:50 PM  

"the megachurch mainstream version" - Joel Ostein or Pope Francis version?

Anonymous Heaviside March 09, 2015 3:59 PM  

In The Antichrist Nietzsche sounds like he is referring to the natural sciences when he refers to "science," but arguably what he is saying makes much more sense if you interpret it as "Science" in the Hegelian sense.

Now claiming to have that kind of knowledge would put one in the same category as Plato in "How the True World Became a Fable," but I don't think that actually contradicts what I said above.

"The true shape in which truth exists can only be the scientific system of such truth, to help bring philosophy closer to the form of Science, to the goal where it can lay aside the title "love of knowing" and be actual knowing -- this is what I have set myself to do" -- Hegel in the Phenomenology

"the inner character of infinity is negation, or indifference.

But the pure concept or infinity as the abyss of nothingness in which all being is engulfed, must signify the infinite grief [of the finite] purely as a moment of the supreme Idea, and no more than a moment. Formerly, the infinite grief only existed historically in the formative process of culture. It existed as the feeling that "God Himself is dead,"" -- Hegel in Faith and Knowledge

Blogger bob k. mando March 09, 2015 3:59 PM  

kfg March 09, 2015 3:13 PM
Yes.



then do so.

just be aware that Baptists, Protestants, Orthodox Coptic and Oriental Christians have been critiquing Rome ( and each other ) for going on two thousand years now.

you're a bit late to the party.

i haven't bothered disputing the Nietzschean description of Christianity because his philosophy is so absurdly self refuting.



kfg March 09, 2015 3:13 PM
I am unconvinced that The Renaissance, Enlightenment and Progressivism did not arise among the head hunters of New Guinea is a mere coincidence.


one of the first prerequisites of all those things is wealth.

wealth is surplus productivity.

the grass hut dwellers of New Guinea could never have developed any of these things because they never progressed much beyond living hand to mouth.

New Guineans are more advanced than the Yaghan ( who usually didn't bother to build houses ... in Tierra del Fuego ), but not by much.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaghan_people#Adaptations_to_climate

Anonymous kfg March 09, 2015 4:06 PM  

" . . . wealth is surplus productivity."

It is your position that Christendom had nothing to do with the productivity of the West?

Are the cathedrals and universities mere happenstance?

Blogger bob k. mando March 09, 2015 4:15 PM  

not at all.

are you critiquing Christianity or complimenting it?

Blogger slarrow March 09, 2015 4:20 PM  

The second one in the series (also about Nietzsche with Mega Man) explores the limitations of science as a source of meaning. It should be required viewing for all those who fetishize science as the new source of Truth.

Blogger Booch Paradise March 09, 2015 4:29 PM  

and so.. society is better because Mao killed 100,000,000 people... because... will to power.

As if there were such a thing as better and worse societies aside from good and evil.

Anonymous kfg March 09, 2015 4:29 PM  

"are you critiquing Christianity or complimenting it?"

Yes.

Anonymous Heaviside March 09, 2015 4:34 PM  

>and so.. society is better because Mao killed 100,000,000 people... because... will to power.

Nietzsche was no fan of socialism.

Blogger Josh March 09, 2015 4:39 PM  

Nietzsche was no fan of socialism

Atheism + will to power = mass murder

Anonymous kfg March 09, 2015 4:44 PM  

Christianity+will to power = God will know his own

Blogger bob k. mando March 09, 2015 4:44 PM  

as is proven by dozens of real world experiments now.



kfg March 09, 2015 4:29 PM
Yes.


so you have an explanation for the non-Christian wealth of, say, Imperial China, Moghul India, Pharaonic Egypt and Rome? to name just a few?

Blogger bob k. mando March 09, 2015 4:45 PM  

should have quoted Josh.

Anonymous kfg March 09, 2015 4:50 PM  

" . . . so you have an explanation for the non-Christian wealth . . ."

Certainly; a sufficient quantity of sheeple.

Anonymous INFOWARS DOT COM March 09, 2015 4:55 PM  

Certainly; a sufficient quantity of sheeple.

WAKE UP SHEEPKE!!!

Blogger bob k. mando March 09, 2015 5:32 PM  

kfg March 09, 2015 4:50 PM
Certainly; a sufficient quantity of sheeple.



holy shit, no.

by that metric India, Maoist China, North Korea, Indonesia, sub-Saharan Africa and Soviet Russia are/were the richest places on the planet.

you need to acquaint yourself with the military concept of 'force mulipliers'.

also with the concept that a force multiplier can be less than unity ....

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/unity?s=t

Anonymous kfg March 09, 2015 5:39 PM  

You need to acquaint yourself with the difference between "necessary" and "sufficient."

Is it your position that religion cannot operate as a force multiplier by organizing and unifiying a labour force?

Anonymous Corvinus March 09, 2015 5:43 PM  

Feminization of Christianity, the megachurch mainstream version, and the use of the word 'sheep' would skew the understanding of Christianity to outsiders.

Turn the other cheek givess many the view of weakness. The many not realizing the one you struck only has two cheeks. Proceed at your own peril.

What would Jesus do? Flipping tables and taking a whip to the offensive is not out of the question.


This.

I hate the use of the word "sheep" to describe the faithful, as in modern English it has come to be a pejorative (i.e., stupid, weak, and blindly obedient, hence "sheeple"), but it obviously didn't have the same connotation in Palestine two thousand years ago.

Anonymous Maximo Macaroni March 09, 2015 5:57 PM  

To believe God is dead, do you not also have to believe that he was at some time alive? And that, the nightmare of the atheist, He is capable - of resurrection?

Anonymous kfg March 09, 2015 5:59 PM  

That's what I've been talking about.

Anonymous Daniel March 09, 2015 6:01 PM  

Read Nietzsche, and you will realize he was heartbroken by his insight. Of course, for him to claim that the one cult that exhorts its followers to not conform to the "will to power" of this world is somehow the cause of conformity should have done his heart some good.

But it didn't.

Because will to power.

it obviously didn't have the same connotation in Palestine two thousand years ago.

I don't know. I think it did. Sheep are retarded. They smell bad. They huddle up in conflict. I had one ram who broke his own neck in a headbutting contest with another. They think good dogs are themselves. They think coyotes are too.

They follow when led, are completely reliant on their shepherd, get lost like morons, are stomach-driven and are - all in all - fairly pitiful.

And Jesus - the Lion of Judah - loves them.

Will to Power.

Blogger Josh March 09, 2015 6:15 PM  

but it obviously didn't have the same connotation in Palestine two thousand years ago.

Actually, I believe it did.

Blogger bob k. mando March 09, 2015 6:29 PM  

kfg March 09, 2015 5:39 PM
Is it your position that religion cannot operate as a force multiplier by organizing and unifiying a labour force?


nice moving of the goalposts.

or, as i like to call it, bait and switch.

you said you were going to critique Christianity, now you're saying that Christianity is no different than Imperial Taoist China or Pharaonic Egypt.

so, we've established that you admit that 'creation of wealth' is not an attribute exclusive to Christianity.

which has nothing to do with my assertion that wealth is a prerequisite for Progressivism ( one of the most recent labels for the Parasites ).



kfg March 09, 2015 5:39 PM
You need to acquaint yourself with the difference between "necessary" and "sufficient."


one industrious and moderately intelligent person can provide a 'comfortable' living for himself with reasonable amounts of leisure time every day.

one billion people who are lazy, stupid or being actively kneecapped by their administrators will suffer privation, starvation and disease.

show me your supposed tipping point between "sufficient" and "necessary".

Blogger Corvinus March 09, 2015 6:38 PM  

Actually, I believe it did.

You mean, being stupid, weak, and blindly obedient?

Blogger ScuzzaMan March 09, 2015 6:41 PM  

It does make you wonder, though, if:

A) Nietzsche ever met any Christians? Because the list of Christians who didn't give up their will to power is pretty much as long as the list of Christians ...

B) He wasn't simply taking the piss out of Age of Reason evangelists? Because if he wasn't, then he seems completely oblivious to reality, which is no great recommendation for a philosopher.

Blogger Josh March 09, 2015 6:42 PM  

You mean, being stupid, weak, and blindly obedient?

Generally, yes. Why do you think Jesus emphasized the sheep knowing the voice of their shepherd?

Anonymous kfg March 09, 2015 6:58 PM  

" . . .nice moving of the goalposts."

I did not raise them. They appeared out of nowhere.

" . . .now you're saying that Christianity is no different than Imperial Taoist China or Pharaonic Egypt."

I have said no such thing. It is a tautology that all civilizations share the characteristics of civilization.

" . . .we've established that you admit that 'creation of wealth' is not an attribute exclusive to Christianity."

Certainly. What is necessary is a coordinated labour force. It is not sufficient. The labour force must be directed appropriately as well. Once you have formed a flock you may drive it over a cliff as easily as over a meadow.

"one industrious and moderately intelligent person can provide a 'comfortable' living for himself with reasonable amounts of leisure time every day."

Have you tried it? I have. I could make myself comfortable. As for leisure time, that would depend on what you consider leisure. I had little time when I didn't need to be doing something or other.

I could not build a cathedral. I would have needed a number of other people who would follow the course I set for them.


Anonymous Heaviside March 09, 2015 7:05 PM  

Nietzsche never said that Christians have no will to power.

"The feeling of power has so far mounted highest in abstinent priests and hermits."

Anonymous Cash March 09, 2015 7:15 PM  

I'm not sure if blindly obedient is a good way to describe sheep. They tend to do dumb things but that is way different from being blindly obedient.

But one thing is for sure though: people that go around saying sheeple are douches.

Anonymous kfg March 09, 2015 7:19 PM  

"They tend to do dumb things but that is way different from being blindly obedient."

I have herded sheep. They most certainly aren't blindly obedient. They most certainly can be herded. Easier than goats, or cattle, with less personal risk.

Blogger SmokeyJoe March 09, 2015 7:59 PM  

@ A Both.

"but it obviously didn't have the same connotation in Palestine two thousand years ago."

"Actually, I believe it did."

Sheep, as in we are the flock, Jesus the Christ is our shepherd, a euphemism. Stupid, yes if your not following the Shepherd. Weak, yes if your not following the Shepherd and think you can play with the wolves. Blindly obedient? II Timothy 2:15- Admonishes and tells one to study and learn. Let the ignorant remain ignorant.

Blogger SirHamster March 09, 2015 10:35 PM  

Blindly obedient? II Timothy 2:15- Admonishes and tells one to study and learn. Let the ignorant remain ignorant.

Easily led astray may be more apt. And that much is true

Anonymous dc red dogs March 09, 2015 11:01 PM  

Nietzsche was, as the German speaking commenter above intimated, not a philosopher at all; rather, he was a polemicist, a professor, and a comedian. In the Germany of his day the connections went to the polemicist, the big bucks went to the professor (a huge deal in Germany to this day), and being a comedian was how he was able to live with himself, for awhile. Exhibit A (in the comic style) - "Nietzsche Family Circus" . Anyway, given a time machine and a chance to give the old classical scholar some advice before he wandered into his sad little Teutonic whorehouse , I would have said READ THE BOOK OF PROVERBS IN YOUR NATIVE LANGUAGE IF YOU HAVE TO AND SHOW A LITTLE RESPECT. That is all. Well, not quite all, any wannabe Nietzsche of our day should prayerfully read the Book of Proverbs before wandering into any metaphorical house of prostitution.

Blogger Markku March 09, 2015 11:55 PM  

What the sheep doesn't do, is second-guess the shepherd's command when she doesn't understand it.

The opposite psychology is that of a cat.

Anonymous meh March 10, 2015 12:45 AM  

The video is most amusing if you have seen the 1980's TV version of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, and interpret the narration in that light (it helps that the narrator's voices sound similar).

Anonymous Ain March 10, 2015 1:41 AM  

Smokey Joe: "Turn the other cheek gives many the view of weakness. The many not realizing the one you struck only has two cheeks. Proceed at your own peril."

It's misconceived as weakness by many because they lack the understanding that in order for turning the other cheek to be a choice, one must be capable and likely predisposed to make their wrath felt. It's about grace.

Anonymous Jack Amok March 10, 2015 1:46 AM  

8-bit philosophy for a 64-bit world.

Anonymous Heaviside March 10, 2015 4:05 AM  

For an analog world.

Blogger bob k. mando March 10, 2015 1:39 PM  

dc red dogs March 09, 2015 11:01 PM
"Nietzsche Family Circus"



Nietzsche knew atheists, there's no denying that.

"If there were gods, how could I endure not to be a god! Hence, there are no gods."

http://www.nietzschefamilycircus.com/perm.php?c=30&q=251



kfg March 09, 2015 6:58 PM
I did not raise them. They appeared out of nowhere.



yes, that's why you opened this clusterfuck by raising them yourself.


kfg March 09, 2015 2:47 PM
In what dominant culture did Progressivism arise?



kfg March 09, 2015 3:13 PM
It is only through understanding ones weaknesses that one may guard against them. I am unconvinced that The Renaissance, Enlightenment and Progressivism did not arise among the head hunters of New Guinea is a mere coincidence.



i point out that the 'weakness' you are complaining about is neither unique nor specific to Christianity.

then you assert that Western wealth is a result of Christianity.

kfg March 09, 2015 4:06 PM
It is your position that Christendom had nothing to do with the productivity of the West?


then you start ranting about wealth creation being a function of population size.

kfg March 09, 2015 4:50 PM
Certainly; a sufficient quantity of sheeple.



because, of course, the MOST productive people are those who follow and don't think for themselves.

then you're back to asserting that wealth is a result of religion ( although you've learned enough this time not to ascribe it specifically to Christianity ).

kfg March 09, 2015 5:39 PM
Is it your position that religion cannot operate as a force multiplier by organizing and unifiying a labour force?



then you claim that the goalposts are a figment of my imagination.

kfg March 09, 2015 6:58 PM
I did not raise them. They appeared out of nowhere
....
I have said no such thing. It is a tautology that all civilizations share the characteristics of civilization.


and trump yourself by claiming that civilization is a result of civilization.

which is a rough paraphrase of my first post in this thread.

*facepalm*

so, it seems you didn't intend to critique Christianity at all, you just have difficulty differentiating between Christianity, other religions and civilization in general.

you'd do Princess Porkarina proud.

Blogger J Thomas March 10, 2015 8:14 PM  

What's most important with Nietzsche is to recognize he was talking about the "Christianity" of his day. And no doubt Nietzsche would also despise the feminized, castrated, soulless "Christianity" of our day as well.

If you write Nietzsche off as just an "idiot", in actuality, you are the idiot.

Consider this very insightful quote from him which recognized the castration of modern "Christianity":

“Modern people, deadened to all the terms of Christian language, no longer have a feeling for the terrifying superlative, which for the ancient sensibility lay in the paradox of the formulae: ‘God on the cross‘.

At no time or place has there ever been such a daring reversal, a formula so frightful, questioning, questionable as this one: it ushered in a re-evaluation of all ancient values.”

Anonymous dc red dogs March 10, 2015 10:27 PM  

J Thomas - Nietzsche was well-educated and eloquent. He was the contemporary of many foolish Christians, of course, so your quote is appropriate. But the blustering bookish lad was also the contemporary of, by my rough count, 5 to 10 thousand Christians who are now remembered by name as piously heroic, and the contemporary of, again by my rough count, 2 to 3 hundred thousand Christians - and maybe ten times that amount - in Europe alone- whose children or grand children would become heroic Christian martyrs or saints. Why didn't he talk more about them? Would he call people who criticize, with admitted hindsight, his arrogance and superficiality, idiots? I think I know the answers.

Blogger J Thomas March 10, 2015 11:33 PM  

You are no doubt correct, dc, that he was also contemporary to many heroic Christians. He himself admitted so (I can find the quote for you if you like).

And I would indeed be willing to admit that it is quite possible that his take on Christianity (as a religion of weakness) was in fact not properly nuanced by the greater whole of Christendom. Although, in another respect, I think it actually was. This is one of those "on the one hand yes, on the other no" situations.

In truth, although countless heroic Christians have bravely fought and died to preserve freedom (one heroic name, Bonhoeffer, comes to mind, against the Nazis), I think Nietzsche was digging to a deeper issue. But at the same time, I think at least, he wasn't able to fully disclose the bigger paradoxical picture (which he struggled to, and at last lost his sanity in the attempt).

His declaration of "God is dead, and we have killed him" wasn't a happy declaration, but almost rather a lament. His point was that decadent Christianity had killed God, and the quote above points to the main reason why, which is that "Christians" no longer feel the "outrage" of how "ridiculous" God on the cross is. Jesus on the cross has become so commonplace, that the "scandal" no longer rocks people. It's true that he was against the "revaluation" Christ represented, but he at least respected the "audacity" of attempting that very thing. But I also think he was also saying something different... that because it is so commonplace, it canNOT rock people, not matter how we may try to let it be so.

This quote seems relevant: "Christianity came into existence to lighten the heart, but now it needs to burden the heart to start with so it can lighten it afterwards. Consequently, it will perish."

I think his point is that hearts need to be burdened with real trouble in order for Christianity to work (a quote like "The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" comes to mind, and of course a myriad of Christ's quotes as well). And I think his point is that, because authentic Christianity relies so much on persecution, it as a religion ultimately must yield to something bigger yet to come. And although I agree with you that he did indeed err in not seeing the bigger picture of what Christianity has done for humans, he was correct in seeing what "Christianity" (as an established order) had done to humans (particularly in it's reliance on persecution as a purifier, and how it becomes so decadent and "sickly" after a long time of being "established").

I agree that he didn't get the exact balance right, but I think he was a "prophet" in the sense that he realized the sort of decadent lutheranism (that he was immersed in) who yield, especially for the Germans, who, according to him still had much "barbarian" in them. Indeed, I think Nietzsche prophesied the rise of the Nazis:

"The whole problem of the Jews exists only in nation states, for here their energy and higher intelligence, their accumulated capital of spirit and will, gathered from generation to generation through a long schooling in suffering, must become so preponderant as to arouse mass envy and hatred. In almost all contemporary nations, therefore - in direct proportion to the degree to which they act up nationalistically - the literary obscenity of leading the Jews to slaughter as scapegoats of every conceivable public and internal misfortune is spreading."

Blogger J Thomas March 10, 2015 11:34 PM  

I think this quote also, paradoxically, forecasted the rise of the nazis:

“The German soul is above all multifarious, having diverse sources, being more layered and pieced together than truly constructed–this is because of its origins. Any German bold enough to claim that ‘two souls reside, alas, within my breast’ would be grossly abusing the truth or more correctly falling short of the truth by many souls. As a people in whom there is a most tremendous mixture and mingling of the races, with a possible preponderence of the pre-Aryan element, as a ‘people of the middle’ in every sense, the Germans are more incomprehensible, vast, contradictory, alien, incalculable, surprising, even frightening than are other peoples to themselves–they escape definition and for that reason alone are the despair of the French. It is characteristic of the Germans that they can never exhaust the question ‘What is German?”

Blogger J Thomas March 10, 2015 11:41 PM  

This article, in light of the last quote, really makes sense. The Germans became so anti-semitic, in the final analysis, because really, they were so terrified of themselves: http://forward.com/articles/198652/germanys-inferiority-complex-and-the-holocaust/?p=all

And I think that is precisely what Nietzsche wanted them to conquer: themselves, especially in light of Christianity no longer "working" (being too commonplace).

Blogger J Thomas March 10, 2015 11:45 PM  

Fundamentally though, in the bigger picture, you are very right that Nietzsche got Christianity wrong in a sense, especially in light of the robust foreign policy that would eventually follow the rise of the evangelical movement of the USA. This article really delves into that paradox.

Blogger J Thomas March 10, 2015 11:51 PM  

This quote from the last link sums up the paradoxical situation very well: "Thus, according to Benz, Nietzsche employs the term "Christianity" in two diametrically opposed senses, designating on one hand the teachings of its founder, and on the other hand, the complete reversal of those teachings by the traditions of the Church. This duality within the term "Christianity" extends to Nietzsche's use of the term "Antichrist," as well"

Blogger J Thomas March 10, 2015 11:55 PM  

It just goes to show how limited words are, and how we all carry so many different prejudices and associations with different words, that it makes articulate discussions and debates so difficult. Nietzsche tried SO HARD to encapsulate that paradox, and for that, I love him very much. He is definitely a hero to me.

Anonymous Heaviside March 11, 2015 3:20 AM  

>The Germans became so anti-semitic, in the final analysis, because really, they were so terrified of themselves: http://forward.com/articles/198652/germanys-inferiority-complex-and-the-holocaust/?p=all

What does that article even have to do with your hypothesis? It is just another work by a despicable fork-tongued propagandist who repeats the risible notion that "Oy vey de goyim hate us because we're so much better than them!"

The other article you posted was also garbage. It asserts that Nietzsche was wrong because contemporary American Christians are fundamentalists, and that support for the free market is support for the strong over the weak. Neither statement is true.

Blogger J Thomas March 11, 2015 11:46 AM  

>>"It is just another work by a despicable fork-tongued propagandist who repeats the risible notion that "Oy vey de goyim hate us because we're so much better than them!"

Well if you say so, then it must be true. It must be relieving for you to not force yourself to engage in substantive rebuttal.

Anonymous Heaviside March 11, 2015 5:59 PM  

>It must be relieving for you to not force yourself to engage in substantive rebuttal.

Rebuttal of what? Are you saying that Germans feared their own envy? Are you saying that Germans hated jews for being alien because that exposed the alien element inside themselves? But then, why did you link to that specific article?

Anonymous dc red dogs March 11, 2015 10:40 PM  

J Thomas - Carlyle was another well-educated 19th century person who could be considered a prophet, and it is very sobering to read his predictions (the sinful desire , which achieved its apogee with the generations beginning about 1915, for comprehensive hatred, the totalitarian temptation that so many eloquent people who survived it have written about). I don't blame Nietzsche for what I think of as his mistakes - and I don't think I feel ingratitude for his hard work - I don't blame him for anything much, really, never having faced his temptations. I believe you when you say you can quote Nietzsche's descriptions of heroic Christians. The point I was trying to make was different, I guess, from the point you were trying to make - you concentrated - as I see it - on how Nietzsche explained how the peasantry or the reserve batallions and the easily deluded let down the yeomen and the aristocracy and the front-line troops, and of course they did, tragically so. Maybe nobody described that in our time better than Nietzsche. But it worked the other way too, the front-line troops let down the reserves more than Nietzsche could have imagined, and when the battle was over, there were so many heroic deaths and defeats on every area of the battlefield that complaints from one group about another group seem more or less irreverent and disrespectful. And I think a thousand years from now, if, as I hope, the last 150 years are seen as exceptionally brutal, the perspective on thinkers like Nietzsche will be better calibrated than I can imagine.

Blogger J Thomas March 11, 2015 11:59 PM  

Thanks for your thoughts dc. I very much agree with the heart of what you're saying.

Anonymous Yes, Man March 13, 2015 9:10 PM  

Nietzsche may have been wrong, but his philosophy still takes more brains than Secular Humanism.

Blogger J Thomas March 13, 2015 10:02 PM  

His philosophy requires your entire brain, and your heart, and requires your testicles to enlarge as well.

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