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Wednesday, March 25, 2015

Spy vs spy

The latest revelations of Israeli spying on the USA may, in part, account for the increasing indifference the White House and the Democratic Party are showing to Israeli interests:
It is – rightfully – front-page news that Israel was caught spying on the closed-door negotiations between the U.S. and Iran. And the Obama administration is particularly outraged that Israel allegedly shared that information with Republican congressmen who want to stop any peaceful deal with Iran.

This is certainly outrageous … but small, in the grand scheme of things.

Why? Because Israeli spying on America is so rampant that U.S. officials have labeled it “alarming, even terrifying”.

And because the U.S. has only half-heartedly asked Israel to stop … Israel has told the U.S. to pound sand. As if that isn’t bad enough, the NSA voluntarily shares the raw data it collects on American citizens with Israel. This includes raw data on U.S. government officials.   This not only raises major privacy concerns for American citizens, but it might mean that Israel is spying on the American Congress and other high-level politicians.

Indeed, leaked NSA documents show that U.S. intelligence officials are concerned that the NSA may be putting Israel’s security needs ahead of America’s.
If true, the NSA is only doing what Tom Friedman does. I had to laugh after reading the conclusion of his article in the New York Times today:
So before you make up your mind on the Iran deal, ask how it affects Israel, the country most threatened by Iran. But also ask how it fits into a wider U.S. strategy aimed at quelling tensions in the Middle East with the least U.S. involvement necessary and the lowest oil prices possible.
This is rather remarkably blunt. Apparently US interests are now supposed to be an afterthought for Americans. Of course, it's a little difficult for the US government to convincingly affect much outrage about Israeli spying, when the US is so actively spying on the rest of the world.

Labels: ,

179 Comments:

Blogger Mr.MantraMan March 25, 2015 7:08 AM  

The Democrats and the Israelis need to fight, so let them settle their hierarchy battles.

Anonymous Smokey March 25, 2015 7:10 AM  

Spying on your supposed friends used to be a big deal once.

Since when did executing spies become a big no-no?

Blogger jay c March 25, 2015 7:11 AM  

Nobody should be surprised or offended that Israel spies on us. Every country spies on every other country.

On the other hand, everything the NSA does anymore is alarming. Maybe that's how they justify spying on us to themselves. They don't need a warrant because they aren't acting as a domestic spying program. Theyre just foreign contractors.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus March 25, 2015 7:19 AM  

Given that billionaires such as Haim Saban and Sheldon Adelson essentially own both the Democratic and the Republican parties, Israel is at the top of the information food chain. One would love to know what assurances were made, for what price, at the Sheldon Adelson Primary. For Americans, information on what their representatives will really do if elected is unavailable; for Israeli intelligence, it's simple: Sheldon Adelson, a highly ethnocentric Jew, will tell them what the need to know.

Even more fundamentally, when information is obtained and processed, if has to be reported to appropriate authorities. Israel has leaders that represent Jewry and to whom one can give information in the confident expectation that it will be used to benefit Jews and the Jewish state. But who represents the American nation and will reliably act in that nation's interest? There's nobody to report to.

Anonymous paradox March 25, 2015 7:31 AM  

It's great to know the two national parties mouth pieces for foreign countries. Israel for the Republicans and Mexico for team Democrat. The leadership of both should be tried for treason.

Anonymous The Deuce March 25, 2015 7:37 AM  

I really enjoy Obama's self-righteous indignation at his little attempt to go over Congress' heads going tits ip. Typical SJW, shocked and offended that actions have consequences.

Anonymous Clay March 25, 2015 7:41 AM  

Hah! Totally OT, but aimed at Chris, the "Cat Killer":

"From their “playful rollings” to their “bewitching grace,” famous science and fantasy fiction author H.P. Lovecraft (1890-1937) once articulated perfectly why cats are greater than any other creature on the planet."

Uh huh.

Why are the feline species bigger and smarter than what is left of the predators on this planet? (except bears)

Anonymous takin' a look March 25, 2015 7:44 AM  

-Vox Day

Of course, it's a little difficult for the US government to convincingly affect much outrage about Israeli spying, when then US is so actively spying on the rest of the world .

The key phrases are duel citizens and right within the article itself NSA share raw data.

How densely packed with $aturdays are the other alphabet soup agencies?

Anonymous PhillipGeorge(c)2015 March 25, 2015 7:46 AM  

It's a sock puppet side show. 911 trials and where are the missing nukes?
We aren't seeing the reality to any of this.

Someone did 911, and it still has to be dealt with all the way to the hilt. [These people don't just make Putin look good, they make him look like he's on a mission from God]

Blogger Mr.MantraMan March 25, 2015 7:48 AM  

Think 4GW, and shifting loyalties. Myself I would put the chief rabbi in charge of the NSA and then let the 1GW conservatives moan about it

Blogger YIH March 25, 2015 7:49 AM  

Shimshon:
Let me explain something to you:
Do you remember what used to be called ''the cold war''?
If you do, then you remember that the Soviet Union and the US openly considered each other enemies.
Spying on both sides was constant and intense - and 'an open secret'.
When it comes to spies, the rules of the game are actually pretty simple...
Don't get caught.
If AN ENEMY SPY gets caught, anything and everything is fair game:
Here is what should happen to Jonathan Pollard:
Marched out of his prison cell at dawn and executed.
The corpse is skinned, the skin is tanned, and a lampshade is crafted of the tanned skin.
The body fat of the corpse is rendered, and at least one bar of soap is made from that rendered body fat.
Then the lampshade and bar of soap are FedEx'd to the office of Benjamin Netanyahu with a letter written in Hebrew saying (English translation):
''This is what happens to ENEMY spies that are caught in your ENEMY's country''
I would expect no less if an American spy doing his job was caught in Israel.
''Our bestest ally?'' I think not.
Shimshon, THERE, RIGHT FUCKING THERE, is where on the doll the jews touched me.

Anonymous p-dawg March 25, 2015 7:51 AM  

As if the oil companies want the lowest oil price possible. That's a freaking joke. That would be incompatible with the quarter after quarter of record profits they've been pulling in.

Anonymous Krul March 25, 2015 7:51 AM  

Clay - Why are the feline species bigger and smarter than what is left of the predators on this planet? (except bears)

Sperm whales and giant squid are predators too. So are sharks, alligators, crocodiles and pythons which can also be bigger than felines, but are definitely not as smart.

Anonymous Clay March 25, 2015 7:52 AM  

Uh. I think you meant "DUAL", Mr. Peeker.

Anonymous VD March 25, 2015 7:52 AM  

Shimshon: Let me explain something to you:

Did I miss something here? Why are you responding to someone who hasn't commented?

Blogger Hermit March 25, 2015 7:55 AM  

I would say that Iran is the country most threatened by Israel.
It's funny to see an atomic power playing the victim.

Anonymous Clay March 25, 2015 7:56 AM  

OK, Krul. Accepted. I won't argue.

I was referring to land-based mammals. I apologize for not being more anally specific.

Blogger Cataline Sergius March 25, 2015 7:59 AM  

Obama doesn't seem all that upset about the Israelis, spying on the terrible negotiations Kerry is conducting.

But he does really mad that they told congress about it.

Blogger YIH March 25, 2015 8:10 AM  

VD:
Did I miss something here? Why are you responding to someone who hasn't commented?
Commented yet.
Yes, Vox, it was angry, as it should be. I was raised around jews, liked them and trusted them.
Then recently I learned about their past. That blast was my way of kicking them to the curb.
I can't really say I was outraged that they were spying, can't even say I'm surprised.
It's the whole 'rub your nose in it' aspect that pisses me off.

Blogger natschuster March 25, 2015 8:14 AM  

A number of eyars ago, Ilved in Israel for two years. I recall twice reading in the newspaper that Israeli counter-intelligence caught Americans spying on Israel. They were sent home. No big deal. Its all part of the game. I also recal that, during the Clinton administration, officlals admitted to tapping the Israeli embassy phione lines. That's spying. It's how the game is played.

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 8:19 AM  

Look at the giant wad of panties here... holy hell.

People... Allies spy on each other all the time. It is assumed. As Vox said... we spy on everyone. Enemies... friends... everyone.

So tell me... you oh so deeply hurt americans... how many american spies should be executed by our own allies?

Spare me your butthurt.

America complaining about someone spying on it is akin to a suicide bomber complaining about powder burns.

Anonymous Krul March 25, 2015 8:20 AM  

Nobody should be surprised or offended that Israel spies on us. Every country spies on every other country.

jay c is right. The trouble here isn't the fact that they spy on us. It's the fact that they're trying to interfere in other US-foreign relations, and the fact that "the NSA may be putting Israel’s security needs ahead of America’s." The latter is a close thing to treason.

Anonymous zen0 March 25, 2015 8:21 AM  

From reading a lot of the links in the original article, I get the impression that the complaint is that the Israelis are too good at the thing everyone else is also doing.


You get that a lot in sports, also.

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 8:22 AM  

And besides... we all know Obama is a gay muslim traiter who's secretly working to destroy the United States.

So spying on Obama is actually working in the interest of the US.

Come on people... keep up with the narrative here...

Blogger Bodichi March 25, 2015 8:22 AM  

@Nate

"So tell me... you oh so deeply hurt americans... how many american spies should be executed by our own allies?"

All of them. I believe that spying is wrong. It includes lying and deceit. All spies should be hanged, not tortured and other horrible punishment, just normal judicial hanging.

I also feel that all Alphabet soup agencies in our country that uses spies should be disbanded.

Why my tax dollars go to pay for spies is beyond me. All spies should be hanged 100% of them.

Blogger sysadmn March 25, 2015 8:23 AM  

I'm reminded of the quip, "There are friendly countries; there are no 'friendly' intelligence agencies".

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 8:23 AM  

"and the fact that "the NSA may be putting Israel’s security needs ahead of America’s." The latter is a close thing to treason."

Does it ever occur to you guys that the NSA could just be fucking with Obama because he's done something to piss them off?

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 8:24 AM  

"All of them. I believe that spying is wrong. It includes lying and deceit. All spies should be hanged, not tortured and other horrible punishment, just normal judicial hanging."

Then you're a naive little moron... and you should go back up on Big Rock Candy Mountain with the other window licking idiots.

Blogger YIH March 25, 2015 8:24 AM  

From The Times of Israel:
Op-ed calls on Israel to nuke Germany, Iran
’20-30 nuclear bombs will assure the job gets done,’ opinion piece on right-wing Israel National News site says
http://www.timesofisrael.com/op-ed-calls-on-israel-to-nuke-germany-iran/
Please do. Show the world your real face.

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 8:26 AM  

"Please do. Show the world your real face."

That's rich... coming from the only country that has ever actually nuked anyone.

Blogger Bodichi March 25, 2015 8:28 AM  

@Nate

"Then you're a naive little moron... and you should go back up on Big Rock Candy Mountain with the other window licking idiots."

Maybe if the USA had followed the advice of our founding fathers and not got into entangling alliances we wouldn't need spies.

Maybe if we fought the wars we fought to actually win them the wouldn't need spies.

Tell me Nate, if you kill your enemies and leave them nothing, how do they spy on you and why would you spy on them?

Blogger Shimshon March 25, 2015 8:28 AM  

This is not the first time I have seen my name mentioned in posts I have otherwise not commented on. Seriously?

Anonymous buzzcut March 25, 2015 8:31 AM  

@Shimshon It's because he was spying on you and knew you would eventually comment. Preemptive.

Anonymous Krul March 25, 2015 8:32 AM  

Does it ever occur to you guys that the NSA could just be fucking with Obama because he's done something to piss them off?

Not to me, no, but that's irrelevant to my statement that you quoted for some reason.

Anonymous zen0 March 25, 2015 8:32 AM  

@ Krul

and the fact that "the NSA may be putting Israel’s security needs ahead of America’s." The latter is a close thing to treason.

The word "may" also evokes the companion concept "may not".

Between that and the fact that Israel's security is constantly championed by US officials as being concomitant to US security, the grey area expands into bubble territory.

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 8:33 AM  

"Maybe if the USA had followed the advice of our founding fathers and not got into entangling alliances we wouldn't need spies. "

This is why I said you should go back up to Big Rock Candy Mountain... though it is becoming clear you never actually came down.

"Tell me Nate, if you kill your enemies and leave them nothing, how do they spy on you and why would you spy on them?"

Because you cannot fight a war without intelligence.. and as Jefferson learned... you will always have enemies. Period. Simply by your existence... you will have enemies. There will be nations spying on you for their own interests... and using that information to hurt you in the market place. There will be enemy nations spying on you so they can use that information to gain an advantage and take what you have.

Your position is utopian stupidity that would make the most committed communist blush.

Blogger Bodichi March 25, 2015 8:35 AM  

@Nate

How many spies did Rome need in Carthage once they destroyed it?

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 8:37 AM  

"Not to me, no, but that's irrelevant to my statement that you quoted for some reason."

No. It isn't. its the motivation... which is what you were speaking of. You claimed they were putting Israeli interests over the US'.

I was pointing out that it is possible that they are not doing that at all. They could be just screwing with Obama. Obama's interests /= America's Interests. No matter what desk he's sitting behind.

They could be acting in america's interest because they could know something you don't. What with them being the NSA and all. And they could also be acting in their own best interest... what with them being the NSA and all.

We have no idea.

There are plenty of things to call them treasonous about. There is no need to pick this nit.

OpenID simplytimothy March 25, 2015 8:37 AM  

When Boehner says that he was not aware of the Israelis notifying congress, he is either lying or 'something else'.

That 'something else' intrigues me. We know that Boehner was part of the eight(?) people who where briefed on the Benghazi operation and given Boehner's character, it is plausible that the Israeli's consider him part of the problem.

Another possibility is that the back-channels where motivated by other factors-this seems more credible-but I don't trust the lying drunk in the speakers chair.

Now, I am happy that obama got punked, but I must not let that determine how I look at this.

Per Nate's point about the NSA turning on obama, that would be good.

Man, I hate feeling like a pawn in some grand game; I like peace.






Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 8:38 AM  

"How many spies did Rome need in Carthage once they destroyed it?"

You really are slow.

How many spies did Rome have in Carthage BEFORE they destroyed it?

Anonymous Krul March 25, 2015 8:38 AM  

zen0 - The word "may" also evokes the companion concept "may not".

So? IF they put Israel's security needs ahead of the US's, then it's a problem. If they don't, then it's not.

Anonymous Smokey March 25, 2015 8:39 AM  

Maybe if the USA had followed the advice of our founding fathers and not got into entangling alliances we wouldn't need spies.

Look, while I respect the founding fathers and what they did and said for this country, it's a bit naive to think they could have foreseen everything.

Thomas Jefferson would have his mind blown just by watching an episode of the fucking Power Rangers. What would he be able to know of how the future had evolved, and how the Internet would change everything?

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 8:41 AM  

"Look, while I respect the founding fathers and what they did and said for this country, it's a bit naive to think they could have foreseen everything."

Thomas Jefferson learned a lot as president. Look at the utopian bullshit he wrote... then contrast it to how he acted when he got in office.

Blogger Bodichi March 25, 2015 8:42 AM  

@Nate

They probably had quite a few. Was there a net positive gain from them though? Unfortunately we cannot know this.

Blogger Tank March 25, 2015 8:43 AM  

Spying? LOL. Round up the usual suspects.

Of course Israel, like every nation spies. Then they act surprised. This theatre has existed ... forever.

The important point is that US interests should guide US policy. Sure we should take into account who our actual allies are (lets see, Canada - Yes, Iran - No), but bottom line the US gov't is responsible for the US.

Anonymous zen0 March 25, 2015 8:43 AM  

Often the best question to ask is not about any leaked revelations, but why the leak now?

Highlighting Israeli actions around the Iran file helps distract people from the fact that the European governments have similar concerns about it that the Israeli government does.

Anonymous Krul March 25, 2015 8:45 AM  

Nate - You claimed they were putting Israeli interests over the US'.

Actually, I quoted the articles claim that "U.S. intelligence officials are concerned" that they were putting Israel's interests over the US'. I was pointing out that this, IF TRUE, would be a serious problem. As opposed to the fact that Israel spies on the US, which is normal and expected.

Anonymous zen0 March 25, 2015 8:48 AM  

@ Tank

but bottom line the US gov't is responsible for the US.

Yes it is, but which branch? Inter-government relations in the US seem like just one big John Wayne era saloon brawl.

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 8:50 AM  

"They probably had quite a few. Was there a net positive gain from them though? Unfortunately we cannot know this."

Wrong. We can know this.

War requires intelligence. Victory almost always depends on it. It is required. You have an intelligence agency because you need intelligence. You need intelligence because you don't live on big rock candy mountain.

For fucks sake you're even contradicting yourself. Without an intelligence agency how would you even know who your enemies are?

Just hoping they'll walk up in pretty uniforms with pretty flags and announce their intentions?

It doesn't work that way.

For crying out loud even Switzerland has an intelligence agency.

Anonymous Racialist Heretic March 25, 2015 8:52 AM  

Israelis recruit campus conservatives, Neocons, and Young Republicans at top universities in the US to infiltrate Middle Eastern Studies departments (and others) and report on anti-Israeli sentiment, support for terrorism, and the activities of Arab and Arab-American student radicals. The rewards for these students are trips to Israel and guaranteed acceptance at top Ivy League graduate school programs. This has been going on since at least the 1980s. I can't write more about it here. The GOP and American conservative movement are riddled with people who've done 'undercover' work for Israel.

Blogger Bodichi March 25, 2015 8:55 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Bodichi March 25, 2015 8:56 AM  

@Nate

"For fucks sake you're even contradicting yourself. Without an intelligence agency how would you even know who your enemies are?"

No I am not. I did not say you should not have an intelligence agency. And it is quite easy to tell who your enemies are why they steal, capture, spy on, or attack you etc. And yes you would need an intelligence agency to counter act threats in your own land. I very specifically said that you should not have spies.

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 8:56 AM  

Krul... you wrote: ' and the fact that "the NSA may be putting Israel’s security needs ahead of America’s." The latter is a close thing to treason."

Now note when I responded I used a plural. I wasn't just talking to just you but to everyone who was wringing their hands over the naughty NSA maybe being Naughty.

And stop with the word weasel game. Its embarrassing.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan March 25, 2015 8:57 AM  

The American Empire inspires a paycheck, Israel is a religious institution that delivers a good margin to its devotees. Might as well get mad at the weather for all the huffing and puffing

Blogger Josh March 25, 2015 8:59 AM  

I can't write more about it here.

If you're not willing to elaborate, why should anyone here be willing to believe you?

Anonymous Krul March 25, 2015 9:00 AM  

Bodichi - Tell me Nate, if you kill your enemies and leave them nothing, how do they spy on you and why would you spy on them?

How exactly do you expect to destroy your enemies without knowing who they are, where they are, where they're going, what kind of resources they have, what their tactics are, who's in charge, an so forth? Naturally they will try to keep you in the dark about all this, so you need to use subterfuge to get the information you need to destroy them. You also have to prevent them from getting the drop on you, which means keeping secrets.

It's just practical reality. Joshua destroyed Jericho, but not before sending in spies.

Anonymous Cryan Ryan March 25, 2015 9:00 AM  

Oh my, what an unholy mess!
Our leaders are under duress,
They planned to play checkers,
While fondling their peckers, but..
The Jews are all playing chess.

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 9:00 AM  

"No I am not. I did not say you should not have an intelligence agency. And it is quite easy to tell who your enemies are why they steal, capture, spy on, or attack you etc. And yes you would need an intelligence agency to counter act threats in your own land. I very specifically said that you should not have spies"

/facepalm

Now you're splitting hairs between spies and intelligence agencies.

We're done.

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 9:01 AM  

"How exactly do you expect to destroy your enemies without knowing who they are, where they are, where they're going, what kind of resources they have, what their tactics are, who's in charge, an so forth? "

With an intelligence agency! But no spies.

Anonymous Racialist Heretic March 25, 2015 9:02 AM  

Josh: I'm just providing information. I don't care if you don't believe it.

Blogger Bodichi March 25, 2015 9:03 AM  

@Nate

/facepalm

That is fine. But you have no leg to stand on if you are saying that the majority of personal in an intelligence agency are spies, or that analyzing data and scouting are the same as spying.

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 9:03 AM  

"The GOP and American conservative movement are riddled with people who've done 'undercover' work for Israel. "

So what?

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 9:07 AM  

"That is fine. But you have no leg to stand on if you are saying that the majority of personal in an intelligence agency are spies, or that analyzing data and scouting are the same as spying. "


Oh look...

"But you have no leg to stand on if you are saying"

Where have we seen phrases like this?

Blogger Josh March 25, 2015 9:08 AM  

Josh: I'm just providing information. I don't care if you don't believe it.

You haven't provided any information. You've just made broad and vague statements.

If you want to provide useful information, give us some examples.

Anonymous Krul March 25, 2015 9:08 AM  

Nate, "weasel word games"? What are you talking about?

Anonymous Clay March 25, 2015 9:09 AM  

Sorta, maybe, like this:

“Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.”

Lord Palmerston quote



Blogger Bodichi March 25, 2015 9:09 AM  

@Nate

Okay Nate, please tell me what you said.

Anonymous Roundtine March 25, 2015 9:09 AM  

Israel was the top U.S. spy threat around 2000. The issue was dropped after 9/11, now it is back. U.S. policy can now shift away from Israel, but Democrats will get all the blame and targeting from Israeli spies.

It isn't illegal for Jewish Americans to Swift Boat Democrats based on information they learned while visiting Israel.

Blogger Josh March 25, 2015 9:09 AM  

I very specifically said that you should not have spies

Define spy

Anonymous Will Best March 25, 2015 9:13 AM  

Mexico for team Democrat

The question then is why are the Mexicans (who own the NYT) have an interest in preserving Israel.

Anonymous Racialist Heretic March 25, 2015 9:15 AM  

Josh: Of course I did. Read it again. That you found it insufficiently "useful" is your problem, not mine.

Blogger Bodichi March 25, 2015 9:16 AM  

@ Josh

"spy - a person employed by a government to obtain secret information or intelligence about another, usually hostile, country, especially with reference to military or naval affairs. "

Okay , I was wrong. I was talking about an individual on a clandestine operation, inside a foreign country, lying about who they are to capture secrets.

According to dictionary.com a scout with a pair of bino's just over the border is a spy.

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 9:17 AM  

"Okay Nate, please tell me what you said."

You cannot have an intelligence agency without spies. Without spies there is no data for the data analyzers to analyze. There is no context for them to analyze the data they do get with.

Suggesting that you can have a useful intelligence agency without spies is precisely the same thing as saying you can build a computer without memory.

like it or not... all intel comes from spies of one type or another.

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 9:18 AM  

"According to dictionary.com a scout with a pair of bino's just over the border is a spy. "

That's because he is.

Blogger Josh March 25, 2015 9:18 AM  

That you found it insufficiently "useful" is your problem, not mine.

Why can't you write more about it? Are you afraid of the big bad Jew?

Blogger Student in Blue March 25, 2015 9:19 AM  

@Bodichi

In essence there really isn't THAT much of a difference between spy and scout in common language. You know reconnaissance aircraft? They do pretty much the same work as a scout with binoculars, just on a greater range.

They're called "spy planes".

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 9:20 AM  

The guy on the border looking into another country with binoculars? That's pretty much the NSA.

We call it spying. We call them spies.

Blogger Bodichi March 25, 2015 9:21 AM  

This is a connotation / denotation issue. I incorrectly assumed when someone used the word spy they were referring to a james bond style agent, such as the one recently caught.

Anonymous Racialist Heretic March 25, 2015 9:21 AM  

Josh: You're starting to squirm.

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 9:22 AM  

"That you found it insufficiently "useful" is your problem, not mine."

I still don't understand why as an american I should have a problem with that? our own government should be doing the same thing... and likely is.

Anonymous Athor Pel March 25, 2015 9:23 AM  

" Smokey March 25, 2015 7:10 AM
Spying on your supposed friends used to be a big deal once.

Since when did executing spies become a big no-no?"



It depends on the circumstances.

Many spies have diplomatic cover, meaning they have diplomatic immunity and work out of an embassy or consulate. It's why they only get sent home rather than jailed or executed. Doesn't mean they don't end up dead in other ways if they piss off the wrong people but it won't be "official" or an act of state. In CIA terms they are called case officers. Mostly they recruit people in the countries they get sent to, in other words they find and cultivate traitors.

Other spies have non-official cover identities, businessmen, film makers, journalists, that kind of thing. If they get caught they get dead, usually. You don't hear about them because the folks that run things don't want them talked about, on either side.

Anonymous Racialist Heretic March 25, 2015 9:23 AM  

Josh: You seem unduly interested. The real question here, for you and those reading this thread, is why?

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 9:24 AM  

' I incorrectly assumed when someone used the word spy they were referring to a james bond style agent, such as the one recently caught."

Fine.

But you're wrong about that too.

You cannot have a functional effective intel agency without them. That's reality. Everyone has them. Everyone always will have them.

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 9:24 AM  

" The real question here, for you and those reading this thread, is why?"

maybe he wants to go to grad school?

Blogger Josh March 25, 2015 9:30 AM  

Josh: You seem unduly interested. The real question here, for you and those reading this thread, is why?

Hey look, a gamma tell!

Put up or shut up, little gamma bitch. Either tell us why you can't write any more about it or give us some more information: people who've been recruited, schools involved, dates, etc.

Because if you can't back up what you're saying, you're either a fraud or a coward.

Which one is it?

Blogger stats March 25, 2015 9:30 AM  

Nate said:"The GOP and American conservative movement are riddled with people who've done 'undercover' work for Israel. "

So what?


Does your disinterest apply to Russia and China. Does "traitor" mean anything to you?

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 9:33 AM  

"Does your disinterest apply to Russia and China. Does "traitor" mean anything to you?"

Does your interest apply to Great Britain or Australia?

Do explain how collecting intel on america's enemies and giving it to one of america's allies is treason.

Blogger Krul March 25, 2015 9:42 AM  

I'd make a distinction here. On the one hand, countries spy on each other, including allies and neutrals. It's just the way the world works, nothing wrong with that. To assume that we're exempt from this would be stupid.

On the other hand, there's the fact that each country has to protect its own interests, which means keeping secrets from foreign spies.

So, if you tell me that Israel spies on the US, I say "Yeah, what else is new?" But if you tell me that the US gov is incompetent at protecting its secrets, or worse that part of it is working on behalf of foreign interests, then we have a serious problem.

Now, the article doesn't say that the NSA definitely puts foreign interests above US, only hints that it might just maybe be possible, but if it's true then it shows a serious vulnerability in US defenses.

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 9:44 AM  

"Now, the article doesn't say that the NSA definitely puts foreign interests above US, only hints that it might just maybe be possible, but if it's true then it shows a serious vulnerability in US defenses."

Yeah but its thin. Like I said.. there are many possibilities for why the NSA would do what they do.

Blogger Josh March 25, 2015 9:45 AM  

But if you tell me that the US gov is incompetent at protecting its secrets, or worse that part of it is working on behalf of foreign interests, then we have a serious problem.

Bingo. And then add in that the response of elected officials is essentially "move along folks, nothing to see here."

Blogger IM2L844 March 25, 2015 9:48 AM  

Interesting and ironic that U.S. officials are equating spying with terrorism.

Blogger John S March 25, 2015 9:49 AM  

It's great to know the two national parties mouth pieces for foreign countries. Israel for the Republicans and Mexico for team Democrat. The leadership of both should be tried for treason.

That's not exactly fair... BOTH parties have been reliable mouthpieces for Israel, after all.

Jane Harmon is a Democrat( and seemingly a missed asset) , and Saiban I recall told her he'd help her get the top intelligence position in exchange for quashing the AIPAC spy case a few years ago... (don't recall the exact details, but that's pretty close)

Blogger John S March 25, 2015 9:50 AM  

Missed = Mossad

Stupid autocorrect.

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 9:52 AM  

"Interesting and ironic that U.S. officials are equating spying with terrorism."

Does that mean we have to bring ourselves some democracy via blitzkrieg?

Anonymous Racialist Heretic March 25, 2015 9:52 AM  

Josh: When you wrote "Put up or shut up, little gamma bitch."...you sounded really irritated, which indicates to me and everyone reading this thread that my words have hit home. Gamma tell, indeed.

"Either tell us why you can't write any more about it or give us some more information: people who've been recruited, schools involved, dates, etc.:"

Just as soon as you post here your real name, address, DOB, SSN, etc.

Since you appear to be such a staunch proponent of full disclosure, this should not be a problem for you.

Blogger Chris Mallory March 25, 2015 9:52 AM  

"Do explain how collecting intel on america's enemies and giving it to one of america's allies is treason."

Israel is not an ally. If you think they are, please cite the treaty forming the alliance and when the Senate debated and voted on it.
When have Israeli troops ever fought along side Americans in open battle? The torturers at Abu Graib do not count. The attack by the Tel Aviv terrorists upon the USS Liberty doesn't count as fighting with Americans either.

Turkey is an ally, Turkish troops fought along side Americans in Korea. South Korea is an ally. South Korean troops fought along side Americans in Vietnam. Even Syria had troops fight along side Americans during Desert Storm.

Israel is a parasite upon the American people.

Blogger stats March 25, 2015 9:53 AM  

Nate said: Do explain how collecting intel on america's enemies and giving it to one of america's allies is treason.

Got a lot of assumptions there to unpack. America's enemies? Says who? Israel steals industrial and corporate secrets from the US. They steal military secrets from the US. And sometimes they sell these secrets to our enemies. There are a long list of American companies that have been destroyed by the collusion of Israel and the American government. Israel is not an ally. Not with standing your heretical religious beliefs, Israel is as much a threat as Russia ever was.

Blogger Chris Mallory March 25, 2015 9:53 AM  

Any American caught spying for any other nation be it China, Iran, Israel or Canada should be hanged by the neck until dead.

Blogger Josh March 25, 2015 9:54 AM  

Does that mean we have to bring ourselves some democracy via blitzkrieg?

We need to fight them over there (D.C.) so we won't have to fight them over here (our state)!

Anonymous Racialist Heretic March 25, 2015 9:54 AM  

Josh: What are you afraid of?

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 9:55 AM  

"Any American caught spying for any other nation be it China, Iran, Israel or Canada should be hanged by the neck until dead. "

Holy shit... every so often I forget just how retarded libertarians are.

Then I am reminded.

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 9:57 AM  

So... the pilots that flew the SR-71 over Russia... They should totally be hung.

Because Spy.

Jesus fuck you morons... I'm gonna go drink.

Anonymous Athor Pel March 25, 2015 9:57 AM  

"Bodichi March 25, 2015 8:22 AM
...
I believe that spying is wrong. It includes lying and deceit. All spies should be hanged, not tortured and other horrible punishment, just normal judicial hanging.

I also feel that all Alphabet soup agencies in our country that uses spies should be disbanded.

Why my tax dollars go to pay for spies is beyond me. All spies should be hanged 100% of them."




You talk just like a traitor. It's uncanny really.

Blogger stats March 25, 2015 9:58 AM  

Then I am reminded.

Shut the fuck up, moron. That's just liberal posturing on your part. Not an argument. Reply to the arguments posted above.

Blogger Josh March 25, 2015 9:58 AM  

"...you sounded really irritated, which indicates to me and everyone reading this thread that my words have hit home. Gamma tell, indeed.

Now you're playing armchair psychologist again. Which is...gamma.

Just as soon as you post here your real name, address, DOB, SSN, etc.

I haven't asked you to post any of that information for yourself. I asked you to substantiate your claims.

Which you still haven't done.

Now put up or shut up, bitch.

Since you appear to be such a staunch proponent of full disclosure, this should not be a problem for you.

"You appear to be"

Blogger stats March 25, 2015 10:00 AM  

Jesus fuck you morons... I'm gonna go drink.

Huh, how very gamma of you. Isn't it ironic.

Blogger Bodichi March 25, 2015 10:05 AM  

@Athor Pel

"You talk just like a traitor. It's uncanny really."

That isn't funny. How many years of your life have you been deployed in service to this country?

Anonymous Racialist Heretic March 25, 2015 10:14 AM  

Josh: Your reaction here is textbook Gamma. What are you afraid of?

Anonymous Porky March 25, 2015 10:16 AM  

NSA = the bad guys.

Blogger Josh March 25, 2015 10:16 AM  

Josh: Your reaction here is textbook Gamma. What are you afraid of?

How so?

Blogger Josh March 25, 2015 10:19 AM  

2. You are expected to back up your assertions, so don't be surprised if you happen to get called on them. If you fail to back up an assertion when called on it, but refuse to retract the statement, understand that I reserve the right to delete the relevant comment and all subsequent comments you attempt to make. If you are asked a direct question relevant to the topic, then you will be expected to answer it in a straightforward and non-evasive manner; providing links in lieu of answers is not acceptable. (Links providing additional information in support of your answer are great, of course.)

Racialist Heretic:

Please back up your original assertion:

Israelis recruit campus conservatives, Neocons, and Young Republicans at top universities in the US to infiltrate Middle Eastern Studies departments (and others) and report on anti-Israeli sentiment, support for terrorism, and the activities of Arab and Arab-American student radicals. The rewards for these students are trips to Israel and guaranteed acceptance at top Ivy League graduate school programs. This has been going on since at least the 1980s. I can't write more about it here. The GOP and American conservative movement are riddled with people who've done 'undercover' work for Israel.

If you are unable to back it up, retract your statement.

Anonymous Harsh March 25, 2015 10:30 AM  

Maybe if we fought the wars we fought to actually win them the wouldn't need spies.

And if the crime rate is down, we can let all the convicts out of prison cuz, you know, there's no crime anymore.

Anonymous Harsh March 25, 2015 10:31 AM  

South Korea is an ally. South Korean troops fought along side Americans in Vietnam.

Calling South Korea a US ally because they once fought a war on our side is a bit like calling my ex-wife my fuck buddy.

Anonymous Harsh March 25, 2015 10:36 AM  

you sounded really irritated, which indicates to me and everyone reading this thread that my words have hit home. Gamma tell, indeed.

Being irritated isn't a gamma tell. Avoiding the argument, being passive-aggressive, rejecting reason, and then accusing your opponent of being gamma because he's tired of your bullshit however is.

Anonymous Athor Pel March 25, 2015 10:36 AM  

"Josh March 25, 2015 9:30 AM
...
Either tell us why you can't write any more about it or give us some more information: people who've been recruited, schools involved, dates, etc.
...
"



Josh, a lot of recruiting gets done on college campuses, by everybody.
What the Heretic is talking about is just one kind.

He may just be yanking your chain and you may just be irritated by it but if you're interested there are some information sources that could help answer your questions. Seriously.

One book is titled, "By Way of Deception: The Making and Unmaking of a Mossad Officer" by Victor Ostrovsky

It doesn't directly talk about recruiting on US college campuses, that I remember, but it does talk about sabras. The concept of the sabra is clever and a force multiplier that most other intelligence agencies do not have.

According to Ostrovsky, in Mossad terms a sabra is an Israeli living outside Israel that has the resources and willingness to take part in Mossad operations whenever called on, no questions asked. These are not official assets and a sabra is only a provider of logistics, they are enablers, they are not put into dangerous positions.

As for recruiting, again according to Ostrovsky, it was mostly false flag recruiting. It was rarely if ever done in the name of Mossad. They almost always presented themselves cloaked in the identity most likely to elicit compliance. Example, if your target for recruitment was a Syrian Air Force officer then the Mossad case officer chosen would be able to speak Arabic with a Syrian accent and present himself as a Syrian government agent.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 March 25, 2015 10:41 AM  

@Nate

Does it ever occur to you guys that the NSA could just be fucking with Obama because he's done something to piss them off?

I don't know about you, but I'd rather not have the lives of millions of people held in the hands of petty bureaucrats.

Anonymous Stilicho March 25, 2015 10:46 AM  

As if that isn’t bad enough, the NSA voluntarily shares the raw data it collects on American citizens with Israel. This includes raw data on U.S. government officials. This not only raises major privacy concerns for American citizens, but it might mean that Israel is spying on the American Congress and other high-level politicians.

Ahem. Get your collective knickers unknotted, un-ass your heads and pay attention to the truly dangerous part (quoted above). Recall that the NSA has already been caught using the Brits' GCHQ to conduct surveillance that is illegal for the NSA to conduct (following the letter of the law and gang raping the spirit). Does anyone think that the Israelis aren't using any intel they get from the NSA to "lobby" politicians? Does anyone think that the Israelis aren't sharing select intel with Jewish business interests around the world? It is only logical self-interest for them to do so. It is, however, utterly fucking insane that a U.S. intelligence agency is using foreign intel agencies to spy on U.S. citizens and is also sharing the results of its efforts to spy on its own citizens with other foreign intel agencies for their own use against those U.S. citizens. Actually, it's more than insane, it is insanely treasonous.

Anonymous Anubis March 25, 2015 10:50 AM  

Johnny Pollard should be hung for the simple reason he stole nuclear secrets and spread them to Israel and USSR. The one thing the West & US have on the world is creative power, Asians can copy & reverse engineer but they are not so hot at creation, at least not since China & Japan had imperial periods where they killed off people that thought wrong. Jews are good at math but they pretty much do the same scams Martin Luther wrote about 500+ years ago. Einstein stole relativity from an Italian/Irish scientist.

Anonymous Donn March 25, 2015 10:54 AM  

Is it just me or do more threads seem to be devolving into Mongolian cluster-f*cks lately?

Anonymous Athor Pel March 25, 2015 10:56 AM  

" BodichiMarch 25, 2015 10:05 AM
@Athor Pel

"You talk just like a traitor. It's uncanny really."

That isn't funny. How many years of your life have you been deployed in service to this country? "



No, it isn't funny. It's meant to get you to think longer and deeper on the subject than you are currently doing.

To answer your question,
I spent 4 years active duty US Air Force. I was a Korean language cryptologic linguist. I spent a year in the Republic of Korea doing a very high stress but otherwise very tedious job that I can't talk that much about because it's classified. It's classified because operationally I worked for the NSA. I had a TS-SCI clearance and my highest rank attained was E-4 (enlisted peon), we referred to ourselves as clerk spooks. If we could meet I could show you my DD Form 214.

If you're interested in reading about my unit in Korea during the time I was in it you can read, "SKIVVY NINE!" by CMSgt T. Wyman Beal, USAF, Ret.
All the classified stuff has been left out of the narrative but the human story is all there.

After I left the AF and started going to college I joined the state Air National Guard for three years because the now ex-wife wanted more money and likely free weekends for some adulterous fun. The job I did in the Air Guard had nothing to do with what I did active duty. In fact it was about the closest you could get to no job at all.

Blogger CM March 25, 2015 11:02 AM  

Never expect a country to act in a manner not in their best interests. They are not individuals who can willingly sacrifice themselves for some concept of friendship or whatever... their goal is their sovereignty.

The only country that is a complete moron on this is America. And because we are moronic about it, we think treaties prevent nuclear warheads, UN agreements lead to less spying, and inviting the world in our borders makes them <3 us.

Normally, it's liberals that are this obtuse... but where Israel is concerned, Republicans are just as confuzzled.

I don't really mind alliances... i think they are dumb and cause more drama than they are worth for this very reason - just cuz there is an alliance, don't expect the "friend" to stop acting in their best interest.

But also ask how it fits into a wider U.S. strategy aimed at quelling tensions in the Middle East with the least U.S. involvement necessary and the lowest oil prices possible.

If this were actually a goal, we'd be working towards self-sufficiancy.

Blogger Student in Blue March 25, 2015 11:04 AM  

@Donn

Ever since Gammas have cottoned on to the word "Gamma" being a pejorative, they try outgrouping using it with lazy psychology. A bit ironic, but emblematic.

But besides that change, no this doesn't seem that much different than normal.

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 11:04 AM  

"America's enemies? Says who? Israel steals industrial and corporate secrets from the US. They steal military secrets from the US. And sometimes they sell these secrets to our enemies. There are a long list of American companies that have been destroyed by the collusion of Israel and the American government. Israel is not an ally. Not with standing your heretical religious beliefs, Israel is as much a threat as Russia ever was. "

Apparently I missed this.

Muslims are definitionally americas enemies.

israel is america's allie. These are not assertion. These are facts. Easily verifiable.

If you're to god damn ignorant to recognize that... fuck off.

Blogger IM2L844 March 25, 2015 11:04 AM  

Does that mean we have to bring ourselves some democracy via blitzkrieg?

Nope. It means people should pay closer attention to the actual words U.S. officials use when painting their connotative narratives.

Anonymous Athor Pel March 25, 2015 11:08 AM  

"swiftfoxmark2 March 25, 2015 10:41 AM
@Nate

Does it ever occur to you guys that the NSA could just be fucking with Obama because he's done something to piss them off?

I don't know about you, but I'd rather not have the lives of millions of people held in the hands of petty bureaucrats.
"




I know what you mean. If you want to know just how powerful those petty bureaucrats really are then you should read, "The Puzzle Palace" by James Bamford. It's the history of the NSA.

Assuming you know some things about the history of the banking industry, after you read Puzzle Palace you will get a similar vibe from it. Meaning that an organ that has a public face of service to power is in actuality wielding the power that directs events. And both serve something outside of any particular national interest.

If you want a primer on what I'm getting at with that last statement you should read most any book by Anthony C. Sutton.

Anonymous Stilicho March 25, 2015 11:19 AM  

If you want to know just how powerful those petty bureaucrats really are then you should read, "The Puzzle Palace" by James Bamford. It's the history of the NSA.

Yep. Required reading... just as The Creature From Jekyll Island is and for similar reasons.

Anonymous VD March 25, 2015 11:19 AM  

Put up or shut up, little gamma bitch. Either tell us why you can't write any more about it or give us some more information: people who've been recruited, schools involved, dates, etc. Because if you can't back up what you're saying, you're either a fraud or a coward.

Don't be ridiculous, Josh. That's just stupid. The program exists whether he provides you proof of it or not. The only Gamma tell I'm seeing here is you attempting to make a factual assertion, which may or may not be true, a discussion about his character.

Why are you so angry about this? It's hardly a secret that intelligence services from various countries are active on US campuses. I'd be shocked if the Israelis didn't have a number of programs themselves.

Anonymous VD March 25, 2015 11:22 AM  

israel is america's allie.

I don't believe this is technically true. They're not our ally in the same sense that our various allies to whom we have treaty obligations are. Germany is obliged to defend the USA if the USA is attacked. Israel is not.

But I'm not up on all the latest treaties either, so I could be wrong.

Anonymous Jack Amok March 25, 2015 11:23 AM  

Vox's posts on Gamma have been illuminating, but unfortunately they seem to have opened a demon-spawning portal into some aspie-addled hell.

OpenID luagha March 25, 2015 11:23 AM  

Racialist Heretic's commentary is not a surprise.

The Chinese do the same thing; there's loads of published articles about it.

The Russians do the same thing; their 'agents of influence' spy ring was recently publically busted.

If the US isn't doing it too, we're missing a trick.

Of course, Israel sponsors famous US signals intelligence listening posts on Israeli soil and their feed in from Israeli raw intelligence - just like the intelligence sharing with the British mentioned above.

Blogger Josh March 25, 2015 11:32 AM  

Why are you so angry about this?

Because he was being evasive.

The only thing I found odd about his initial comment was I can't write more about it here, which is a flashing sign that says bullshit.

I'll drop it.

Blogger Xmas March 25, 2015 11:34 AM  

That's not how I read what happened at all. Israel was spying on Iran and that revealed details of the negotiations between Iran and the US. Israel then fed those details to friendly US Congressmen to see if anyone knew what was going on.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 March 25, 2015 11:40 AM  

Apparently I missed this.

Muslims are definitionally americas enemies.

israel is america's allie. These are not assertion. These are facts. Easily verifiable.

If you're to god damn ignorant to recognize that... fuck off.


So if Muslims are enemies of the US Gov, then why did the US Gov arm ISIS? That is a fact that is easily verifiable.

And if Israel is our ally, shouldn't we have a formal treaty with them and not with Turkey?

Instead we have dual citizens in high levels of our government who seem more loyal to a country that has nothing but rocks and dirt than its own people.

At least Putin cares about Russians. The least our government could do is put US interests first.

Blogger Rabbi B March 25, 2015 11:43 AM  

"But I'm not up on all the latest treaties either, so I could be wrong.:

A quick Google search revealed this:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/MOUs.html

Blogger Josh March 25, 2015 11:58 AM  

Israel is designated as a Major Non NATO Ally, but we don't have a mutual defense treaty with them.

Here's the full list of MNNAs from Wikipedia:

Named by George H. W. Bush
Australia (1989)[3]
Egypt (1989)[3]
Israel (1989)[3]
Japan (1989)[3]
South Korea (1989)[3]
Named by Bill Clinton
Jordan (1996)[4]
New Zealand (1997)[2]
Argentina (1998)[5]
Named by George W. Bush
Bahrain (2002)[6]
Philippines (2003)[7]
Thailand (2003)[8]
Kuwait (2004)[9]
Morocco (2004)[10]
Pakistan (2004)[11]
Named by Barack Obama
Afghanistan (2012)[12][13]

Anonymous Difster March 25, 2015 11:59 AM  

Heretic claiming special knowledge he's being cagy about is much different than an assumption that something exists. We all assume it exists but Heretic is puffing himself up. That's what Josh was seeing when he called him a gamma bitch. And hey, if the shoe fits it.

Blogger Student in Blue March 25, 2015 12:02 PM  

@VD

Not Josh, but...

Why are you so angry about this? It's hardly a secret that intelligence services from various countries are active on US campuses.

Maybe it's hardly a secret to you, but it always seemed more like a myth to me (and I suspect a large number of my contemporaries). I wouldn't be surprised per se if evidence came out of such things happening, but proof was not blatantly obvious to me in my time going to college. Therefore, I desire more than just "well it's obvious" when I haven't seen the evidence myself.

Simply reading the discourse, I was annoyed at the lack of evidence, anecdote or data, behind the assertion, and how there was a refusal to produce it.

The only Gamma tell I'm seeing here is you attempting to make a factual assertion, which may or may not be true, a discussion about his character.

It became about character when Racialist Heretic said Josh was "starting to squirm" and implied (rather than explain why he wasn't forthcoming in evidence) that Josh was, I guess, a Jewish spy or at least a heavy philosemite.

Regardless, Racialist Heretic danced around giving a straight answer.

Blogger Josh March 25, 2015 12:05 PM  

Heretic claiming special knowledge he's being cagy about is much different than an assumption that something exists. We all assume it exists but Heretic is puffing himself up. That's what Josh was seeing when he called him a gamma bitch.

This.

Hell, I had probably two dozen friends in college who went on Birthright Israel trips.

Anonymous John Smallberries March 25, 2015 12:06 PM  

If Israel is an ally, that implies some sort of mutual benefit (even if not directly spelled out).

So, without referring to Scripture, can someone outline what benefit to the United States our ally Israel is/has been?

Note that "United States" and "United States Government" are not necessarily synonymous here.

Anonymous patrick kelly March 25, 2015 12:12 PM  

Yelling "gamma gamma gamma" is about as gamma as it gets, ya' buncha' gammas...

...oh crap...

Anonymous Porky March 25, 2015 12:15 PM  

Josh = gamma?

But he seemed so tuff.

Blogger Brad Andrews March 25, 2015 12:20 PM  

Thomas Jefferson learned a lot as president. Look at the utopian bullshit he wrote... then contrast it to how he acted when he got in office.

That is like a lot of the writing on libertarian sites and even some here. I would also consider Vox's proclamation of the merit of import controls to fall under that. What sounds great in theory often has a hard time in reality. (Though the arguments for full free trade in goods also has its own implementation challenges as well. We don't live in ideal world, for anyone.)

I don't know about you, but I'd rather not have the lives of millions of people held in the hands of petty bureaucrats.

Your wishes are irrelevant. We are in the second term of a petty bureaucrat. Most people want them, so we have to live with them, whether we like them or not.

===

The US was spying on Merkel's phone calls. Where is the outrage on that?

The US plays the exact same game.

Blogger Josh March 25, 2015 12:22 PM  

So, without referring to Scripture, can someone outline what benefit to the United States our ally Israel is/has been?

To quote Steve Sailer:

Just as, say, the Seattle Seahawks act out the territorialist passions of Puget Sound cubicle drones, Israel has become the beneficiary of white American gentiles’ natural ethnocentrism. Since American whites aren’t allowed to display ethnic pride in themselves, Republicans displace their feelings onto Israel’s uncowed Likud Party as a respectable proxy.

Anonymous Feh March 25, 2015 1:02 PM  

So... the pilots that flew the SR-71 over Russia... They should totally be hung.

The SR-71 never flew over the USSR.

That aside, the penalty for a lot of pilots flying peripheral reconnaissance missions was indeed death, as the Soviets not infrequently shot them down (even in international airspace).

Blogger luagha March 25, 2015 1:13 PM  

"So, without referring to Scripture, can someone outline what benefit to the United States our ally Israel is/has been?"

The two that roll to the top of the tongue are Israeli avionics and access to the raw feed from Israeli signals intelligence. I'm led to believe that geography creates a particular listening post in Israel near Dimona that's exceptionally valuable for overhearing things in the Middle East and Russia.

Google can get you much more than that.

Blogger Dewave March 25, 2015 1:30 PM  

America has had spies and intelligence agencies since the Revolutionary War. I assume you have heard of Nathan Hale?

Blogger Joshua_D March 25, 2015 1:54 PM  

Jack Amok March 25, 2015 11:23 AM

Vox's posts on Gamma have been illuminating, but unfortunately they seem to have opened a demon-spawning portal into some aspie-addled hell.


Right? Heh ... it's pretty funny though.

Anonymous BigGaySteve March 25, 2015 2:14 PM  

"israel is america's allie."

Israel is like the ex-boyfriend that always had money for smokes & booze but never rent, who later brags about how good his job is that he got by sleeping with someone. Ohh I am doing so good now that I make $XX an hour, did I mention I make $XX an hour. "that's nice so is it ok for me to give your new number to the debt collectors looking for you?"

Blogger Derrick Bonsell March 25, 2015 4:15 PM  

If Obama wanted he could easily shut off the tap to Israel. That he won't tells us all we need to know about how serious he is about all of this.

Anonymous Frank Brady March 25, 2015 4:19 PM  

@Nate and @Josh.

I mean these as serious questions and am not trying to be offensive. In the runup to the invasion of Iraq, many of George W. Bush's "defense" advisors (Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz among others) enjoyed dual U.S. and Israeli citizenship. Do you think it is ever a good idea to employ people with dual citizenship in such roles? And, do either of you possess dual citizenship? I ask only because some of our responses in this thread seem a bit overheated.

Anonymous Frank Brady March 25, 2015 4:23 PM  

@Nate and @Josh.

Sorry for the duplication, but I need to correct some typos.

I mean these as serious questions and am not trying to be offensive. In the runup to the invasion of Iraq, many of George W. Bush's "defense" advisors (Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz among others) enjoyed dual U.S. and Israeli citizenship. Do you think it is ever a good idea to employ people with dual citizenship in such roles? And, do either of you possess dual citizenship? I ask only because some of your responses in this thread seem a bit overheated.

Blogger S1AL March 25, 2015 5:12 PM  

"So, without referring to Scripture, can someone outline what benefit to the United States our ally Israel is/has been?"

According to friends or teachers (mostly former military or current research) with whom I've discussed it, a large number of military tech innovations have been developed by the Israelis with us or independently, and we get first crack at them. Additionally, the intelligence work mentioned by luagha.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus March 25, 2015 5:44 PM  

State intelligence agencies are not a logical necessity. Rome didn't have one. The big families didn't trust each other, so they all had their own. A state agency would just have given one family, whichever one controlled it, a huge, state-funded advantage over the others.

The Roman way was wasteful. It involved a lot of duplication. But it was based on a valid point.

That point applies to America also, where contending ethnic groups don't have the underlying common interest of the great families of Rome.

Anonymous Frank Brady March 25, 2015 5:47 PM  

Inasmuch as there is no defense treaty between Israel and the U.S. and inasmuch as Israel (so far as I know) has not expended blood or treasure in any of the U.S. "opportunities" (aka, "wars") that have presented themselves over the last several decades, in what sense can Israel be called an "ally"?

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus March 25, 2015 6:07 PM  

It's true all countries spy on each other. But they don't all do so in the same way.

In spying on your allies, you don't want to get them too mad at you. You don't want to have bad incidents that affect your diplomacy. There are different ways to achieve this.

You can make "never get caught" a serious goal, not cost-free talk. But the budget for an agency so formidable that it would never mess up at all would be high. Zero errors, ever, is not a cost-efficient goal.

You can damp down your aggressiveness in dealing with allies that you consider vital and therefore unacceptable to offend too much. This is the approach that Australia has generally taken with America. We spy on you when we think it's reasonable and when, even if you caught us, you would think it's reasonable too -- at least reasonable enough that, being of a similar culture, you would see the point and not go ballistic and break the alliance over it. At some point, the game is not worth the candle. And, in the biggest case I'm aware of, you were well aware of what information we were trying to steal from you, and we were well aware you knew it, but we felt entitled to it (since we bought the jets, and we wanted everything we needed to know if we ever had to use them and you didn't deign to grant your support), and you wanted to know if we could steal that information, because that would tell you something about the information vulnerabilities in your system, which you would then plug. We stole the information, and now we can fly our jets where we like if we need to, but we can't pull that trick again. This is how solid and true allies spy on each other. Yes it's a contest, but nobody's really cutting anybody's throat.

The other way to prevent bad reactions is, instead of being less aggressive, be more aggressive. Take over, so that even if you are caught doing something viciously aggressive, your people in place can generally say, "that's not a problem, and anybody who says it is may have their career negatively affected."

Israel has not taken the less aggressive or "Australian" option, it has gone for the gusto with the more aggressive option.

That Israel has a powerful lobby and tries to control what reactions the American elite has to Israel, rather than "controlling" reactions by not being aggressive and hopefully not provoking the Americans, is an open secret. And with this strategy, there is no clear line between ultra secret moves within agencies and well-funded lobbying. You are trying to put reins on the beast; it doesn't matter how.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus March 25, 2015 6:34 PM  

simplytimothy: "Man, I hate feeling like a pawn in some grand game; I like peace."

Me too.

But all human traits are heritable, including aggression. The more aggressive are inclined to attack, even if the less aggressive don't like it. And this is as true for groups as it is for individuals.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus March 25, 2015 6:45 PM  

"They probably had quite a few. Was there a net positive gain from them though? Unfortunately we cannot know this."

Nate: "Wrong. We can know this.

War requires intelligence. Victory almost always depends on it. It is required."

That's an empirical claim.

John Keegan thinks otherwise: he thinks "intelligence" is over-rated and brute force often wins. I think the same, or more so: I go to the "Brute Force" school on what won WWII and many other wars.

This is even the basis of the Australian strategy for spying on allies: if you can have more information at the cost of alienating an ally that can apply a lot of brute force in your favor, it maybe wise to do without that information.

Do you have evidence that victory almost always depends on "intelligence" rather than force?

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus March 25, 2015 7:35 PM  

CM: "Never expect a country to act in a manner not in their best interests. They are not individuals who can willingly sacrifice themselves for some concept of friendship or whatever... their goal is their sovereignty."

If you had stopped there, that would have been a clear vote against the idea that nations can have natural allies.

CM: "The only country that is a complete moron on this is America."

So, America is the exception. But the explanation isn't something that belongs in a theory of international relations, like subversion and foreign influence; rather it's "stupidity". Unfortunately there has been no basis during the period of the Jewish take-over for saying Americans are particularly stupid. (Except compared to Jews.) If there was going to be one country that was an exception to the rules of self interest because of stupidity it should not have been America.

CM: "Normally, it's liberals that are this obtuse... but where Israel is concerned, Republicans are just as confuzzled."

In not sure how that would fit into a "stupidity" theory of America's long term failure to act in its own interest rather than Israel's interest.

CM: "I don't really mind alliances... i think they are dumb and cause more drama than they are worth for this very reason - just cuz there is an alliance, don't expect the "friend" to stop acting in their best interest."

Actual national friends see your interest as being in their interest. (For example, two of the schools of thought early in building Australia were that we should claim the continent for the white race, and that we should build a United States of the South Pacific. From either of these points of view, America was part of the same global-historical project, and anything good for America would be assumed by default to be good for Australia, and therefore should be supported as being in the Australian interest.)

Enemies who want you to do what is in their interest, not what is in your interest, and who have no compunction in lying to you, or even in subverting your state so it serves them not you, are very different.

The kinds of allies who want to do you all the good that they can because (from the way they think) that's in their interest are not the same as the kinds of "allies" that want to lie to you, dominate your state, exact heavy tribute from you, and get you to fight their wars at your bloody expense.

Even if you use the same word, alliance, for both relationships, they are radically different.

Blogger Josh March 25, 2015 7:38 PM  

Do you think it is ever a good idea to employ people with dual citizenship in such roles? And, do either of you possess dual citizenship?

No and no.

I don't think dual citizenship should exist.

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 7:41 PM  

"John Keegan thinks otherwise: he thinks "intelligence" is over-rated and brute force often wins. "

Then he is a fool.

How does brute force know where to strike without intelligence? The side with the best intelligence does not always win. But the side that wins almost always has good intelligence.

Brute force without intelligence is just a mindless barbarian charge.

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 7:43 PM  

" Do you think it is ever a good idea to employ people with dual citizenship in such roles? And, do either of you possess dual citizenship? I ask only because some of our responses in this thread seem a bit overheated."

1) No. I think dual citizenship is among the most idiotic inventions ever thought up.

2) No.

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 7:46 PM  

"Israel is like the ex-boyfriend that always had money for smokes & booze but never rent, who later brags about how good his job is that he got by sleeping with someone. Ohh I am doing so good now that I make $XX an hour, did I mention I make $XX an hour. "that's nice so is it ok for me to give your new number to the debt collectors looking for you?" "

We have dozens of treaties with Israel.... including defense treaties. To suggest that Israel is not our Allie is to redefine the word.

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 7:53 PM  

I do agree with the statement that they are not our best Allie. They aren't even our best Allie in the region. That would be Jordan.

Anonymous Michael Kingswood March 25, 2015 8:53 PM  

Seriously, Israel's been spying on us, and us on them, for decades. Hell, when I joined the Navy almost 20 years ago, in one of the first security briefings I received they stated that the biggest threats from foreign intelligence were from Russia, China, France, and Israel (not necessarily in that order). So really this is nothing new, and not surprising at all. It's a little hard to attribute our current rocky relations to their spying, when they've been doing it all along.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus March 25, 2015 8:53 PM  

Nate: "How does brute force know where to strike without intelligence?"

You are in the position of Zhukhov, ordered to take Berlin. Your intelligence is not particularly good. Never mind: you line up artillery wheel to wheel for miles, and blast away; you send for the bombers to drop more tens of thousands of tons of bombs, and so on. Stalin has not asked for delicacy; you win, and it's enough. You do not go to a gulag and you do not get a bullet in the back of the neck: success!

Nate: "The side with the best intelligence does not always win. But the side that wins almost always has good intelligence."

You provided no evidence for that; all you have is the word "almost" to cover cases where that is not so.

I do agree there will be plenty of cases where the side that won had good intelligence, because intelligence is an advantages even if it isn't the biggest advantage, and because there are one-sided wars where a wealthy state that can afford everything beats a poor state that can afford nothing.

Nate: "Brute force without intelligence is just a mindless barbarian charge."

Georgy Zhukov: "If we come to a minefield, our infantry attacks exactly as it were not there."

To General Eisenhower, 1945. Quoted in "Russia: The People and the Power" - Page 207 - by Robert G. Kaiser - History - 1984

Brute force, sans "intelligence," in action. That was how the war was won.

You can characterize it insultingly or not, but historically victory is victory.

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 9:48 PM  

"I do agree there will be plenty of cases where the side that won had good intelligence, because intelligence is an advantages even if it isn't the biggest advantage, and because there are one-sided wars where a wealthy state that can afford everything beats a poor state that can afford nothing."

Of course there are.

The US can take out Costa Rica with no intel what-so-ever. So what? its an idiotic point to bring up. Its like saying fight training doesn't matter because an untrained adult can beat up a 5 year old.

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 10:00 PM  

"You provided no evidence for that; all you have is the word "almost" to cover cases where that is not so."

Because "almost" is the accurate word here.

Who had the best intel in World War 2? The US dead. We had the best code and the best code breakers. its awfully easy to say brute force one world war 2 when the side that won also had the best intel.

There are literally countless examples of intel being a key... but I'll give you a perfect one.

The Six Days War.

if you get past the zionist version of things... the end of the fight in egypt looks very different. Egypt was doing a classic pincer move.... using old soviet tactics... and the IDF was falling for it. The IDF was faster than the Egyptians expected and that ended up costing the egyptians a lot... but never the less the trap was set. IDF had pushed the lines back but Egypt had just folded up around them and were about to hit them from two flanks when the IDF abruptly pulled out.

Why did the IDF pull out?

Because the US saw what was happening on from recon photos and satellite images and called them and warned them.

they repaid us by sinking the Liberty.

Never the less... the only reason the IDF survived at all... was because of US Intel.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus March 25, 2015 11:02 PM  

Nate: "The US can take out Costa Rica with no intel what-so-ever. So what?"

So this is wrong: "War requires intelligence. Victory almost always depends on it. It is required."

Blogger Nate March 25, 2015 11:34 PM  

"So this is wrong: "War requires intelligence. Victory almost always depends on it. It is required.""

Its wrong? Because you can't tell the difference between almost always and always?

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus March 26, 2015 12:45 AM  

Nate: "Its wrong? Because you can't tell the difference between almost always and always?"

For almost all the history of warfare we can see the many and the well armed beating down the ill-equipped and the few, and generally we have very little basis to assume that one side was better informed than the other. The lesson that force wins is strong; the basis for assuming that better information is almost always the basis of victory is feeble.

The superiority of force would probably be shown more clearly, except that outmatched nations -- outmatched by massive armed forces, not spies -- frequently prefer to take what terms they are offered rather than to have the old and brutal truth demonstrated to them.

I am not interested in adding examples till the cows come home. You can believe that more accurate maps outweigh more and better legions if you like, but stunning amounts of the history of armies says otherwise.

Anonymous rho March 26, 2015 1:55 AM  

Vox's posts on Gamma have been illuminating, but unfortunately they seem to have opened a demon-spawning portal into some aspie-addled hell.

If you build it, they will come. With fedoras on their head and sand in their drawers.

I am not interested in adding examples till the cows come home. You can believe that more accurate maps outweigh more and better legions if you like, but stunning amounts of the history of armies says otherwise.

In any fight, the bigger army is better. It's not exactly a deep thought, but it has the benefit of being true.

That said, your example of Zhukov marching men across minefields isn't evidence of anything except butchery on the part of Zhukov. Sure, it works--and you can perform surgery without anesthesia, too.

In any event, war is different now. You don't muster 20 million soldiers and march them across Belgium. If you tried to force them to cross a minefield, they'd call you names on Twitter and unfriend you on Facebook.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus March 26, 2015 5:25 AM  

rho: "That said, your example of Zhukov marching men across minefields isn't evidence of anything except butchery on the part of Zhukov. Sure, it works--and you can perform surgery without anesthesia, too."

I'm pleased that you agree with my basic point, and unconcerned that you have different favorite examples.

rho: "In any event, war is different now. You don't muster 20 million soldiers and march them across Belgium. If you tried to force them to cross a minefield, they'd call you names on Twitter and unfriend you on Facebook."

Well, yes.

But things might be different if "Western" soldiers could advance their ethnic genetic interests by success in war.

Historically, success in war often had effects that led to you having more and more successful progeny. I mean things like undisputed possession of land to populate, brides willing and unwilling, status, material goods, and fine bedsteads looted from fashionable France. (No kidding: this was popular with English soldiers in the Hundred Years War. I assume English women at home expressed their thanks appropriately. Hence: more progeny.) All of this tends to shuffle the genetic deck in favor of men being eager for success in war.

Besides Communist terror, coercion and propaganda, Zhukov's men were motivated because their ethnic genetic interests really were are stake. I don't mean they thought of it in those terms, but good men are strongly motivated to seek the best for their collective posterity -- when they can see how to do so, that is when it is not forbidden and a dead end for them to try to do that.

This is emphatically not the situation for modern "Western" soldiers, whose countries are being over-run and whose ethnic genetic interests are being destroyed, regardless of how well they do making the world safe for who-cares-what in distant countries. They fight and are fought, wound and are wounded, slay and are slain for nothing but wages and the pleasure of hypocritical enemies who rule over them and who harm their posterity.

Now if "Western" soldiers were allowed to articulate their deep hopes for their children (collectively), for their nations (and I don't mean their multicultural states), for all the things that the best men have historically been willing to fight and sacrifice for (like "the blessings of liberty for ourselves and our posterity" in reality and not in cant), and if they were allowed to motivate themselves accordingly and actually seek those goods through success in war, then that would be different.

Of course, these better-motivated soldiers might still get smashed by numbers, wealth and technology. And thinly disguised mercenaries, or slaves whipped forward by other slaves, will still fight, if only because they don't want to lose and die. And it doesn't take that much suicidal idealism to drive a drone.

But all in all I think that the current limits on morale are not the absolute limits even with modern technology.

And when and if these better motivated "Western" soldiers appear (speedily! in our own day!) the NSA may have files on every one of them, complete with embarrassing personal information, but they'll still be there and still willing to fight.

It may be that spies and traitors will not have the final word on which direction history takes.

Anonymous rho March 26, 2015 6:22 AM  

But things might be different if "Western" soldiers could advance their ethnic genetic interests by success in war.

You first.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus March 26, 2015 6:58 AM  

rho: "You first."

Me first what?

I'm not trying to fight a war here; I'm just chatting about how things work, how things seem to be going, and how they might shake out.

Blogger CM March 26, 2015 8:54 AM  

TDT -

Thanks for your reply! I wasn't really expecting one.

So, America is the exception. But the explanation isn't something that belongs in a theory of international relations, like subversion and foreign influence; rather it's "stupidity". Unfortunately there has been no basis during the period of the Jewish take-over for saying Americans are particularly stupid. (Except compared to Jews.) If there was going to be one country that was an exception to the rules of self interest because of stupidity it should not have been America.

My comment about America being moronic on this issue had more to do with our widespread promotion of open borders, our beliefs in the benefits of the UN (which largely wouldn't have existed without us), and the idea that if we are nice, they won't want to hurt us.

These ideas are not very popular on this blog and have been mocked on more than one occasion, but they are still oddly common outside of this space. Hence the "moronic".

Especially the "world without borders" schillers.

We are the only country that has had very little border dispute that results in war (maybe 80 years worth in our whole history compared to 500+ in a typical european country?) So we are comfy in our security.

I think the same attitude that contributes to this naive thinking is the same naivete that puts stock in alliances and treaties. We (as a country) are unique in that regard compared to other countries. We don't have enough experience with our sovereignty being directly challenged to understand the value in promoting our self interest (We also don't recognize indirect subversion).

And yes, i do not think America promotes it's self interest. Our leaders promote their individual interests while our populace thinks we're bad guys deserving of burning in hell (thank you, public schooling).

I get your point that Israel is the stupid one. They shouldn't be forming alliances, but i get why. They are a tiny state surrounded by enemies on all sides. From a worldly view, they are shrewd to form alliances while also being distrustful of them. They have behaved exactly as I would expect a secular state in their position to behave.

It would look very different if they actually followed God's laws for governing their state... but then they'd have to adopt a full theocracy because worshipping false gods would have Iran bombing them to smithereeens with God's blessing (said with tongue in cheek).

Anonymous Eric Ashley March 26, 2015 10:26 AM  

I suspect if you put it to a national referendum...

1. Double the UN's financing.
2. Wrecking ball the UN, and turn its rubble into a pier for garbage scows for NYC.

Option #2 would win in America even as the PTB and the MSM, and Titus' Insular Dominant Minority screamed to high heavens (well, actually they might not since the UN spends a lot of its time messing with them.) But Angelo Codevilla's Ruling Party would certainly blast us simpletons with everyone rhetorical weapon they had, volume set at eleven.

Anonymous BigGaySteve March 26, 2015 10:46 AM  

"We have dozens of treaties with Israel.... including defense treaties. To suggest that Israel is not our Allie is to redefine the word."

Nate-You are right my ex-boyfriend example would only count if I was paying gay alimony. The US gives over $8 billion per year to Israel total and billionaires with Israeli passports profit from open borders, that would be like a current boyfriend with a cocaine habit that you support that lets black/brown into your house to trash the place & replaces your coin collection with debt. Israel only gives data it wants the Lavon affair & the USS. Liberty are equivalent to people telling you your boyfriend is doing the stuff from the previous sentence. There are only 4 Jewish charity hospitals in the entire world(insert joke here) and one of them is in Tehran.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/07/world/middleeast/iran-delivers-surprise-money-to-jewish-hospital.html?_r=0

Anonymous Frank Brady March 26, 2015 12:55 PM  

@Nate: Would you please point me toward one of the defense treaties between the U.S. and Israel? Seriously.

Thanks.

Anonymous Discard March 26, 2015 5:13 PM  

Despite any treaties we may have with the state of Israel, Jews are our allies just like freshly documented Mexicans are now Americans. There is legalism and there is reality.

You can be real allies if there are real common interests. We have no common interest with Israel worth fighting and dying for. We don't need them for listening stations, since we could do just as well with listening stations in Jordan or Turkey. We don't need their technology any more than we need France's or Britain's. If they want to sell it, we can buy it or not.

Most particularly we don't need Jews pushing their interests through their control of our institutions. The role that Jews play in America is enough to make Israel an enemy, not an ally.

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