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Thursday, March 26, 2015

The ultimate argument against certification

This should pretty much end any discussion about the idea that government certification is necessary or even likely to prevent significatly negative outcomes. From the Aviation Business Gazette:
FAA recognizes Andreas Guenter Lubitz. Rheinland Pfalz-based pilot sets positive example.

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is recognizing Andreas Guenter Lubitz with inclusion in the prestigious FAA Airmen Certification Database.

The database, which appears on the agency's website at www.faa.gov, names Lubitz and other certified pilots who have met or exceeded the high educational, licensing and medical standards established by the FAA.

Pilot certification standards have evolved over time in an attempt to reduce pilot errors that lead to fatal crashes. FAA standards, which are set in consultation with the aviation industry and the public, are among the highest in the world.

Transportation safety experts strongly recommend against flying with an uncertified pilot. FAA pilot certification can be the difference between a safe flight and one that ends in tragedy.
Imagine what might have happened if those poor Germanwing passengers had flown with an uncertified pilot?

Labels:

80 Comments:

Anonymous Oy March 26, 2015 11:06 AM  

Stupidest Vox Post ever.

So certification is not "likely" to prevent negative outcomes. How many plane flights have there been since 1945? And how many suicides by pilot (even accepting that that's what happened here)?

Anonymous Porky March 26, 2015 11:09 AM  

Huh?

Anonymous zen0 March 26, 2015 11:11 AM  

There are a number of medical conditions that the FAA considers disqualifying, such as Bipolar disease, cardiac valve replacement, coronary heart disease, diabetes mellitus requiring hypoglycemic medications, disturbance of consciousness without satisfactory explanation of cause, epilepsy, heart replacement, Myocardial infarction, permanent cardiac pacemaker, personality disorder that is severe enough to have repeatedly manifested itself by overt acts, psychosis, substance abuse, substance dependence, transient loss of control of nervous system function(s) without satisfactory explanation of cause.

No Omega test!

I am still leaning towards convert, but there was no Allah Akbar declaration, but of course we know, if there was, it would remain unmentioned.

Maybe that is how they knew he was breathing to the end. Shouting requires breathing.

Blogger bob k. mando March 26, 2015 11:13 AM  

Oy March 26, 2015 11:06 AM
So certification is not "likely" to prevent negative outcomes.



all pilots are required to be certed. have been for decades. all commercial pilots have been certed since ~1930.

therefore ...

100% of all airline crashes that you have ever heard of are the result of .gov certed pilots, maintenance crews and manufacturers ...

Anonymous Alexander March 26, 2015 11:15 AM  

Now hold on a second!

It says it removes the likelihood of a crash due to pilot error.

This was not an error. In fact, the outcome was exactly what the pilot intended it to be.

The system works!

Blogger Chiva March 26, 2015 11:20 AM  

"Imagine what might have happened if those poor Germanwing passengers had flown with an uncertified pilot?"

They would fly into a building?

Blogger ScuzzaMan March 26, 2015 11:27 AM  

Yes, and a nearby building would mysteriously collapse in identically implausible fashion, the USA would invade 7 or 8 countries more or less at random (50% pre-invaded, 50% virgin territory (otherwise it's discriminatory and that would be bad and wrong)), the TSA would be issued with latex gloves ...

What we haven't heard yet is what "anti-depression" medication he was taking.

Anonymous p-dawg March 26, 2015 11:28 AM  

Government certification is typically poor, as in this example. Industry certification can also be poor, but it's typically much better than the government kind. For example, someone with a Cisco certification is more likely to be able to fix a Cisco switch than a government-certified IT professional is to fix, well, in my experience, anything. IEEE certification is another example of an industry standard that works pretty well. But I really don't think that a government-licensed hair stylist is likely to be any better than a non-government-licensed hair stylist. Just noting that there *are* good certifications out there. They don't tend to come from government, though.

Blogger bob k. mando March 26, 2015 11:35 AM  

Oy March 26, 2015 11:29 AM
That government certification does not absolutely prevent crashes does not indicate that it is useless and unnecessary, you fucking dumbass.



That government certification still results in 100% of all crashes does not indicate that it is useful and necessary, you fucking dumbass.

you see, we here tend to comprehend that we don't live in a marshmallow world where everything is peaches and cream and nice and NOONE ever gets hurt.


.gov certification does, however, function wonderfully as a barrier-to-entry to any new and low capital entities seeking to create a startup.

Blogger Nate March 26, 2015 11:36 AM  

"That government certification does not absolutely prevent crashes does not indicate that it is useless and unnecessary, you fucking dumbass."

you shouldn't insult the intelligence of people who are making points that you don't understand.

Anonymous Will Best March 26, 2015 11:36 AM  

I am still leaning towards convert, but there was no Allah Akbar declaration, but of course we know, if there was, it would remain unmentioned.

Of course not. The population of Europe would drop by several million by weeks end if it were released.

Blogger bob k. mando March 26, 2015 11:38 AM  

hrrrm, Oy's 2nd post got spammed. but not his first.


looks like it's time to sign up for a trash gmail account, Oy.

once Blogger gets it's hooks into your IP it gets really annoying trying to post here. lot's of posts will 'go through' only to get deleted ~5 minutes later.

i know from personal experience.

Blogger bob k. mando March 26, 2015 11:43 AM  

Nate March 26, 2015 11:36 AM
you shouldn't insult the intelligence of people who are making points that you don't understand.



that would require that he comprehend that i'm making a point that ... he doesn't comprehend.

comprende?

Anonymous DavidKathome March 26, 2015 11:44 AM  

Maybe they can add another question to the certification process...

Have you gotten laid?

Anonymous anon123 March 26, 2015 11:44 AM  

Proper protocol on that aircraft calls for another crew member to be in the cockpit while the pilot in command went pottie. That way the co-pilot is not alone in case of calamity/sudden rush of jihaditis.

Blogger Joshua Dyal March 26, 2015 11:53 AM  

.gov certification does, however, function wonderfully as a barrier-to-entry to any new and low capital entities seeking to create a startup.

Which has been it's sole purpose ever since the days of Sinclair Lewis and the meat-packing industry.

Blogger bob k. mando March 26, 2015 11:55 AM  

anon123 March 26, 2015 11:44 AM
Proper protocol on that aircraft calls for another crew member to be in the cockpit while the pilot in command went pottie.



that's an FAA reg and has no force in EU airspace. i'm seeing it said that Germany has no such requirement.

http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1274829&start=80

that's also assuming that 50 googolion regs get followed perfectly every flight ...

when you have too many regs, things tend to get skipped in the workaday world.

Blogger Josh March 26, 2015 12:02 PM  

Now hold on a second!

It says it removes the likelihood of a crash due to pilot error.

This was not an error. In fact, the outcome was exactly what the pilot intended it to be.

The system works!


See guys, science is self correcting!

Anonymous Viidad March 26, 2015 12:16 PM  

An uncertified pilot may have had more difficulty hitting the ground.

Blogger Giraffe March 26, 2015 12:18 PM  

Imagine the damage he could have done if pilots were allowed to have a sidearm.

Anonymous Eric the Red March 26, 2015 12:19 PM  

If there had never been FAA certification, would we have seen the probability of airline crashes increase? Hypothetically, is there any way to test this by finding appropriate data now?

If that is not the point, then what am I missing?

Anonymous Viidad March 26, 2015 12:24 PM  

I suppose this means all planes should now be equipped with welding torches in order to cut through the mandatory locked cockpits in an emergency.

Anonymous anon123 March 26, 2015 12:27 PM  

@bob k. mando
You are right. I'll wager the aviation powers that be in Germany are just finishing up the details on introducing that particular regulation.

Blogger Corvinus March 26, 2015 12:39 PM  

I suppose this means all planes should now be equipped with welding torches in order to cut through the mandatory locked cockpits in an emergency.

Not sure that would have worked here. Apparently, the pilot punched in the code to re-open the door but the co-pilot slammed it shut in his face.

Anonymous joe doakes March 26, 2015 12:44 PM  

The FAA is obsessed with making air travel safe, regardless of sense or cost. That's why you still can't take a penknife on the airplane - might trim someone's fingernail with it. Now FAA wants sleep apnea studies for anybody with BMI of 40 and neck size 17 and not just for airline pilots, even the guy in a Piper Cub. Hey, why not just ground all pilots, then nobody will ever be injured in an air accident and your safety record will be perfect.

I soloed and never went back. I have no government certification. But I am capable of flying the airplane.

Blogger bob k. mando March 26, 2015 12:46 PM  

Eric the Red March 26, 2015 12:19 PM
If that is not the point, then what am I missing?



both you and Oy seem to be of the assumption that airline passengers ( that is, customers ) would be incapable of identifying airlines that seemed to be displaying substandard safety and security measures unless you've got Big Bother there to hold your hand and put a pacifier in your mouth.

would i make that case that a free market safety regime would NOT likely result in a few more crashes or incidents? no.

because ticket purchases are a lagging indicator based on *past* performance.

otoh, how much more widely available and cheaper would air travel be if you didn't have to be a billionaire in order to start an airline?

it is the .gov fetishists who assert 'safety uber alles'.

and it is the .gov which fails to provide 100% safety.

the nice thing being, every .gov failure is used as an excuse to expand .gov power and authority ...
"If only we had had regulatory control over that, no such thing would have ever happened!"

as an example, you might think that muslims would love to hijack an Israeli airliner. and they would, they've attempted it many times. but they only succeeded once. and that was the first time.

El Al has made bitches out of them ever since 1968.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Al_Flight_426_hijacking

Anonymous HalibetLector March 26, 2015 12:48 PM  

What we haven't heard yet is what "anti-depression" medication he was taking.

That was my first thought. Some antidepressants list "suicidal thoughts and tendencies" as a side effect.

Anonymous Dan in Tx March 26, 2015 12:57 PM  

Damn and my money was on Moslem. I'm curious to see more details come out.

Blogger CarpeOro March 26, 2015 1:06 PM  

"or example, someone with a Cisco certification is more likely to be able to fix a Cisco switch than a government-certified IT professional is to fix, well, in my experience, anything. "

Then there were the old (haven't dealt with a current one) Microsoft certifications. I agree with the Cisco example however as it is more rigorous from what I have heard then government type certs, giving it some cache.

Anonymous BigGaySteve March 26, 2015 1:10 PM  

Mooslems are claiming him as one of their own.
http://pamelageller.com/2015/03/germanwings-co-pilot-andreas-lubitz-praised-on-facebook-our-holy-martyr-lubitz-died-for-our-prophet.html/

OpenID cailcorishev March 26, 2015 1:20 PM  

I suppose this means all planes should now be equipped with welding torches in order to cut through the mandatory locked cockpits in an emergency.

Yes. And of course a welding torch could be used as a weapon, so it will need to be kept in a locked closet, so there will also need to be an ax for chopping into that closet. The ax will be kept....

Blogger bob k. mando March 26, 2015 1:24 PM  

*shrugs*

muslims claim all sorts of things. see, Tommy Hass.

i'll wait to see if he was actually attending a mosque.

Blogger Owen March 26, 2015 1:24 PM  

I suppose this means all planes should now be equipped with welding torches in order to cut through the mandatory locked cockpits in an emergency.

Those could start a fire.

Better use box cutters. Discreet. Effective.

Wait a minute...

Blogger LP 999/Eliza March 26, 2015 1:26 PM  

I want whomever to release the names of everyone on board. It could be nothing, prove nothing but something else is wrong here.

We have too many people lost and why did this flight seem to be listed, covered and exposed/facts given when there are a few missing flights of recent. Sovereign countries have given official stories as lost planes or lost at sea.

Anonymous Grinder March 26, 2015 1:29 PM  

There is no way to safeguard against a bitter omega once he has been pushed around too much. Women will wet their panties when they realize this.

Blogger Chiva March 26, 2015 1:29 PM  

The ax will be kept....

Under the pilot's seat for safety.

Anonymous dh March 26, 2015 1:40 PM  

The point is that here we have a great case of unintended side effects, to wit:

1. The US government, after 9/11, instead of profiling for terrorists and keeping them off planes instead decides to reinforce the cockpit doors. Since the A320 is widely sold in the US, it was implemented for all models/variations sold everywhere since then.

2. The thing that the government said would protect planes was actually used to keep the pilot out, for at least 8 minutes, allowing the co-pilot to either purposefully or accidentally crash the plane into a mountain. We don't know why but it's really irrelevant. Since the co-pilot was alone in the cockpit behind an impenetrable wall of steel, we'll never know what happened probably. He could have stroked out. He could gone crazy. He could have been dead already. Or he could have been shouting Allah Akbar. We'll probably never know.

3. Lots of smart people in security said that creating an impenetrable door to the cockpit would likely end up in a pilot being locked out of the cockpit, and lead to deaths, but we were told that we should let the experts (at the government) tell us how to solve security problems, and that we the sheeple should just shut up and ride in the back quietly.

So, in the post 9/11 era, we've had no problems averted by heavy duty doors, and at least one plane crash that could have been trivially prevented by not having one at all.

Instead, we'll now have a big movement for pilots to have to go to the potty in a bag kept by their chair, or for the pilots to have keys that can open the door from the outside, or bio-metrics. Or my favorite floated so far, remote takeover of the plane so that ground control (only) can fly the plane by remote control. That definitely will not be hacked.

Anonymous Alexander March 26, 2015 1:40 PM  

The thing that does make it seem less like terrorism to me is that he faceplanted into a mountain. Now granted, he couldn't know exactly when the other pilot was going to step out, and time is limited before calls get out and everyone on the ground knows there's a maniac running the plane... but was there no town he could have redirected it towards? Even if he failed and got shot down before reaching a target of higher value than a pile of rocks, then the 'worst' he has is a plane shot down and everyone killed.

Also, if the ax is under the pilot's seat, he could attack the pilot trying to get back in. So we better keep a second ax in the main cabin.

Blogger Dwight House March 26, 2015 1:56 PM  

"Imagine what might have happened if those poor Germanwing passengers had flown with an uncertified pilot?"
I'm imagining it, and I'm seeing lots more crashes in my mind's eye.

I am against excessive regulation and a certification culture as much as the next libertarian, but let's be realistic here.

Pilot certification is a relatively rigorous process. Compare it to another vehicle-based certification system: driver's licenses. Both piloting and driving require government certification that involve knowledge and experience testing, and must be occasionally be renewed. They both restrict who can obtain them based on physical and mental limitations of the individual applicant.

There are many ways to compare these two, very different modes of transportation on their safety. However, I found that airline flights are at least an order of magnitude safer than driving.

Blogger ajw308 March 26, 2015 2:21 PM  

@Chiva, the A340 has the flight deck fire axe on the wall behind the pilots seat.

Blogger Josh March 26, 2015 2:23 PM  

Pilot certification is a relatively rigorous process. Compare it to another vehicle-based certification system: driver's licenses. Both piloting and driving require government certification that involve knowledge and experience testing, and must be occasionally be renewed. They both restrict who can obtain them based on physical and mental limitations of the individual applicant.

Any YouTube "female driver fails compilation" video shows that the dmv certainly does a wonderful job of protecting us from dangerous drivers.

Anonymous Ryan ATL March 26, 2015 2:23 PM  

imagine telling germans they didn't need certification. they'd flip out.

must.
have.
rules.

OpenID bc64a9f8-765e-11e3-8683-000bcdcb2996 March 26, 2015 2:37 PM  

On sftar
Someone hits the "oh shit" switch with timed lockout of the door?
1. Immediate auto pilot for "level" ish flight, at 10,000 feet, with a minimum alt of "dont fly into a mountain".
2. Auto panic call to the nearest folks that happen to have fighter planes not doing much else at the time.
3. Remote-only control of the aircraft until touchdown "somewhere" besides the middle of an ocean/metropolis.
Wouldn't want to put a nasty payload in a barking "self driving" vehicle, and tell it to "Go find Timmy".
CaptDMO

Blogger ScuzzaMan March 26, 2015 2:41 PM  

"It has since emerged that the 28-year-old was forced to postpone his pilot training in 2008 because of mental health problems, with a friend saying he was 'in depression.' ... "

--from the New Zealand Herald report.

Anonymous Dan in Tx March 26, 2015 2:48 PM  

Finally saw a pic of the guy. I'm thinking maybe Lambda rage.

Blogger CM March 26, 2015 2:49 PM  

"It has since emerged that the 28-year-old was forced to postpone his pilot training in 2008 because of mental health problems, with a friend saying he was 'in depression.' ... "

I'm surprised this isn't screened out. But is it possible he didn't seek treatment because they would've revoked his license?

Blogger bob k. mando March 26, 2015 3:19 PM  

one thing i don't think many are aware of, entry level pilots don't earn shit.

sure, if you get on with a major carrier, in a union, then you make an assload of money. secondary carrier pilots ( such as GermanAir ) barely make enough for living expenses and to pay for their schooling.

http://thetruthabouttheprofession.weebly.com/professional-pilot-salaries.html

another consideration is the pitiful number of hours Andreas had logged. <650 in the better part of two full years of employment is nothing.

Blogger James Dixon March 26, 2015 3:47 PM  

> Both piloting and driving require government certification that involve knowledge and experience testing...

Sigh. How many times does that argument have to be corrected? Driving requires government certification to drive on the public roads. You can drive a car all you want on your own property (or with permission of the property owner) without any license.

Blogger SirHamster March 26, 2015 3:54 PM  

An uncertified pilot may have had more difficulty hitting the ground.

The art of throwing yourself at the ground and missing.

Blogger SirHamster March 26, 2015 4:02 PM  

imagine telling germans they didn't need certification. they'd flip out.

must.
have.
rules.


Rule #1: There are no rules
Rule #2: See Rule #1.

Blogger Rabbi B March 26, 2015 4:08 PM  

"I'm imagining it, and I'm seeing lots more crashes in my mind's eye."

I don't remember who posted this a little while back, but it illustrates a good case for less government regulation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj6Oc4TlblE

Anonymous Harbortown March 26, 2015 4:19 PM  

A couple of problems with Vox's case here.

First, although certification didn't prevent this, neither would have non-regulation.

Second, it is not the case that if certifications are not 100% effective at preventing negative outcomes, that they are therefore "unlikely" to prevent negative outcomes.

Also, amazingly, somehow Bob Mando actually manages to make a decent point, probably unintentionally and with the help of Chiva. Given the only data I am aware of uncertified pilots flying commercial aircraft, 100% of the time destroy buildings and/or kill all their passengers.

Anonymous Alexander March 26, 2015 4:40 PM  

Not true. Frank Abagnale Jr. was an uncertified pilot, and when in he flew a plane, he put it on autopilot because he realized he could kill 140 people by being a dumbass.

So with the evidence we have, uncertified pilots prioritize keeping their passengers alive 100% of the time.

Blogger Rabbi B March 26, 2015 4:45 PM  

" . . . he put it on autopilot because he realized he could kill 140 people by being a dumbass."

Ahhh . . . Lubitz is a certified dumb ass.

Blogger Rabbi B March 26, 2015 4:45 PM  

*was . . .

Anonymous Harbortown March 26, 2015 4:47 PM  

That would be 25% of the time. With the evidence we have.

Blogger Nate March 26, 2015 4:54 PM  

"sure, if you get on with a major carrier, in a union, then you make an assload of money. secondary carrier pilots ( such as GermanAir ) barely make enough for living expenses and to pay for their schooling."

whoa whoa whoa

This sounds like poor pitiful me stuff... but when you look at the numbers the career is pretty much like every other career choice. You start out making little... and move up over time.

50k after 10 to 15 years is about right. In fact.. most careers you're never going to break 50.

Anonymous Simon March 26, 2015 5:18 PM  

Wow...now here's a perfect example of contemplating the need for a blogging certification. Perhaps it would have prevented this train wreck of a blo post.

Blogger bob k. mando March 26, 2015 5:31 PM  

Harbortown March 26, 2015 4:19 PM
Given the only data I am aware of uncertified pilots flying commercial aircraft, 100% of the time destroy buildings and/or kill all their passengers.


good catch. or, it would be if you knew what you were talking about.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks#Planning_of_the_attacks
"that Hani Hanjour already had a commercial pilot's license."

all of the other 911 pilots had taken FAA approved flight training ...

and, of course, that also re-raises the issue of the .gov failing to take any action whatsoever when American flight school instructors tried to forward information about suspicious foreigners to the 'proper' authorities.

frankly, i have no idea why AQ even bothered to send them to the US for flight school. there are flight schools all over the westernized world. and the instruction is pretty much the same everywhere.

why would you attend flight school in the target nation? send them to a flight school in Indonesia and you accomplish the same thing.



Nate March 26, 2015 4:54 PM
This sounds like poor pitiful me stuff... but when you look at the numbers the career is pretty much like every other career choice. You start out making little... and move up over time.



few careers that are as training intensive as commercial flight start that low. ME engineers, for instance, typically start in the 50k range. entry level *flight instructor* at your local FBO might be low 20s.

http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Mechanical-Engineer-I-Salary-Details.aspx?&degree=EDLEV3&ddldegree=Associate%27s%20Degree

another 'problem' for noob pilots is that they come out of flight school with <500hrs ... competing against retired .mil with thousands of hours of flight time in their logs.

i'm not saying it's good or bad, just pointing out the reality. most people think comm. pilots are well off. and they can be extremely well off.

but an entry level pilot out of a flight school / college program is not going to be making anything like as much as an ME.

which is another instance of 'mah collage edumacation' stupidity, just this time for a kind of STEM field rather something idiotic like a degree in Therapeutic Art ( yes, that's a thing ).

although, i do have to admit, my old man would be dead center of the 'whiner' camp. he got straight A's all through school, up through college, right to his final exam.

noticed that he would be competing against pilots coming back from Nam with +2000 on their logs.

went into a funk, flunked his final, never went back. spent the rest of his life working cash-under-the-table construction and commercial fishing jobs.

so, he has a multi-engine VFR license. which is kind of strange, because most people get IFR certed right after they get VFR single engine.

Blogger bob k. mando March 26, 2015 5:36 PM  

Alexander March 26, 2015 4:40 PM
Not true. Frank Abagnale Jr. was an uncertified pilot



that's back to the ridiculousness of .gov providing safety through certing.

Abagnale never had a pilot's license.

it didn't stop him from impersonating a pilot and flying a jetliner.

Blogger ajw308 March 26, 2015 5:41 PM  

This sounds like poor pitiful me stuff... but when you look at the numbers the career is pretty much like every other career choice. You start out making little... and move up over time.
I've heard stories about commercial pilots looking to get their 500 hours in working at places like Delta Junction, the middle of nowhere, for less then min wage, room & board, and the guarantee of 20 hours/week, min. It's sold as "paying your dues" and the lure of the big bucks flying the big planes keeps these guys grinding away, stressed out through layoffs, transfers, etc. It's amazing what people will go through for a dangling carrot that they know, statistically, they'll never get.

Anonymous Harbortown March 26, 2015 5:44 PM  

all of the other 911 pilots had taken FAA approved flight training ...

You dolt. And at what level were they certified?


it didn't stop him from impersonating a pilot and flying a jetliner.


And that would be on the private business that let him in the cockpit, wouldn't it?

Anonymous liljoe March 26, 2015 5:47 PM  

Not sure why any man would kill himself for lack of sex or "attention" from bimbos, there's an endless supply in either hand. I'm more inclined to think this pilot was off his meds...probably raised on all sorts of anti-boy behavior meds, based on his age.

Blogger bob k. mando March 26, 2015 6:35 PM  

Harbortown March 26, 2015 5:44 PM
You dolt. And at what level were they certified?


well, you dolt, at least one of them was a certified commercial pilot. as you would already know if you had any reading comprehension.

but the POINT of certification is that the .gov is guaranteeing safety to the populace if only they allow the .gov to control 'x'.

the .gov certified the flight schools the hijackers attended.

the .gov certified the instructors who taught the hijackers.

the .gov certified the courses and training that the hijackers took.

the .gov certified the airport terminals that the hijackers used to board the aircraft.

the .gov certified the security and screening procedures that were in place before passengers were allowed to board.

the .gov certified the hijacking protocols for the flight crew that were in place in 2001.

hey, how's all that .gov certing working out for you?

Anonymous Salt March 26, 2015 6:37 PM  

He may have gotten halfway through a rabbit infested SFF novel and couldn't take it anymore.

Anonymous Harbortown March 26, 2015 6:49 PM  

the .gov certified the hijacking protocols for the flight crew that were in place in 2001.

They've also certified the ones in place since 2001. That has been working out well.

Blogger bob k. mando March 26, 2015 7:03 PM  

Harbortown March 26, 2015 6:49 PM
They've also certified the ones in place since 2001. That has been working out well.


really? you don't remember the shoe bomber? or the underwear bomber? those attempts failed, NOT because new .gov procedures were accomplishing anything, but due to their own gobsmacking stupidity and incompetence.

which is really frightening.

the FAA is too dumb to figure out how to keep retards like Richard Reid from getting on the plane.

it's a fact, the old .gov certified procedures didn't prevent the hijackings, the new .gov procedures haven't prevented loons from getting the airplanes.

the only thing they HAVE accomplished is strip searching caucasian American grannies in the name of 'NOT racial profiling' and preventing you from taking shampoo or breast milk on a flight.

America, land of the free, home of the brave.


El Al has been screening passengers since 1968, through HumInt.

the problem with HumInt being, you can't spend a gazillion dollars funneling money to cronies for lots of hardware installations at every airport in the country.

Blogger bob k. mando March 26, 2015 7:19 PM  

OT, women in management:
http://trenchescomic.com/tales/post/pre-emptive-strike
"We never would have figured out the story behind the complaint if it weren’t for the fact that the department head who was above our QA manager later explained it all. I guess guilt got to him or something, but he confessed to us that the QA manager had told him she’d completely falsified the whole thing. It was a pre-emptive strike of sorts. She had so little respect for our game testers that she just assumed that they WOULD be loud and obnoxious when on their own away from direct supervision.

Needless to say, life got worse from that point on ..."

Anonymous Harbortown March 26, 2015 7:39 PM  

the new .gov procedures haven't prevented loons from getting the airplanes

Please just try to think for a moment before you vomit from your fingers into a computer.

Anonymous DissidentRight March 26, 2015 7:43 PM  

It is amazing how people think that pointing out the obvious empirical/logical uselessness of _government_ "certification" is anything but an endorsement of _genuine_ certification…

Government "certification" is not certification, because the government has zero incentive to ensure that its "certification" process works, let alone take corrective action. In fact, in some circumstances the incentive is to take a functioning certification process and break it, for the sake of promoting Diversity.

Anonymous Eric the Red March 26, 2015 7:44 PM  

bob k. mando March 26, 2015 12:46 PM....
Thank you for your response. It's an issue of free markets, intelligent consumers, and far less intrusive government control which can never deliever on its promises anyway.

Anonymous BigGaySteve March 26, 2015 7:47 PM  

"Also, if the ax is under the pilot's seat, he could attack the pilot trying to get back in. So we better keep a second ax in the main cabin."
Maybe the pilot should carry an axe with him at all times, or a chain saw.

"Finally saw a pic of the guy. I'm thinking maybe Lambda rage."
I was going to say pilots make enough money they could get with the gay flight attendants but people here say pilots are poor.

"the problem with HumInt being, you can't spend a gazillion dollars funneling money to cronies for lots of hardware installations at every airport in the country."

The other problem with HumInt is you have to hire moslems jihadists because of affirmative action.

Blogger bob k. mando March 26, 2015 10:55 PM  

BigGaySteve March 26, 2015 7:47 PM
I was going to say pilots make enough money they could get with the gay flight attendants but people here say pilots are poor.


some. pretty much all the entry level guys, which is what Andreas was.

i've also seen it posted that GermanAir was going to cut pilot pay this fall.

how's that going to go over with a guy who isn't making much more than minimum wage and already working part time?

might we say ... he'd be kind of depressed?

the simple fact is, if you want a career as a commercial pilot? enter the military and fly a large body, multi engine. retire at 30-35 ( for your full .mil pension ) and THEN switch directly into a captain seat at a major airline making six figures.

going to college to break into comm. flight is a suckers game and the more people aware of it, the better.

with the tiny German .mil, Andreas probably didn't even have that option.


BigGaySteve March 26, 2015 7:47 PM
The other problem with HumInt is you have to hire moslems jihadists because of affirmative action.



that's not a HumInt problem.

that's a problem with laws that violate freedom of association.

but then, we wouldn't be baking cakes for your wedding, either.

choose.



Eric the Red March 26, 2015 7:44 PM
and far less intrusive government control which can never deliever on its promises anyway.



i'm not actually completely against .gov regs. i don't really think Vox is either.

i'm kind of more over on the Bill Black ( Democrat bank regulator )side:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9JfmzUtlWM


it's just that i understand that certification / enforcement bodies ( whether public or private ) are subject to regulatory capture and Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy.

the problem with .gov doing the regulation being that once the org is captured, how do you rehabilitate it?

i suppose you could have competing .gov reg agencies or maybe retire the entire workforce every ~10 years and blackball them from all future jobs in the .gov or in that industry ...




Harbortown March 26, 2015 7:39 PM
Please just try to think for a moment before you vomit from your fingers into a computer.



hey.

you.

fucking moron.

even Obama's minions acknowledge that their procedures aren't accomplishing anything:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umar_Farouk_Abdulmutallab
One day after she said that the system had "worked", Secretary of Homeland Security Janet Napolitano acknowledged that the aviation security system had indeed failed."

most of lack of hijacking attempts since 911 have been because if a half dozen guys show up on a plane with box cutters again, they're going to get jumped by the entire passenger cabin.

just as the attempted bombers are getting jumped.


there's something almost all of these terrorists have in common ... but i can't quite seem to put my finger on what it is. maybe a genius like you could help me out?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsuccessful_terrorist_plots_in_the_United_States_post-9/11

Blogger Randy McDonald March 26, 2015 11:41 PM  

This actually is not the case at all. Do we know how many people who might have gone on to commit havoc as pilots were stopped by the certification process?

Blogger William Hughes March 27, 2015 12:02 AM  

Many young men want to fly more than they want sex. They will line up every morning for a kick in the balls if you'll let them fly a plane. There are more young men who want to fly than there are pilot jobs.

There are very few pilots with a transport Captain's rating. They get paid more.

Either way the aviation regs are usually pretty simple. Do something stupid in the cockpit and you die. The certification programs stress practical competency and current experience, as attested by their peers. It works because it's practical.

As pointed out above, none of it guarantees anything. I own a 1960 vintage aircraft that can deliver a 1000lb payload (after pilot and fuel) anywhere within 7 hours at 160 knots. Anyone with the gate code and the keys could walk up to it and fly away any time. General aviation is a last refuge where no one is looking over your shoulder.

Regulations can not possibly save the public. Only the good judgement and character of the pilot.

Anonymous FP March 27, 2015 12:14 AM  

Omega confirmed?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3013743/Germanwings-pilot-slipped-safety-net-devastating-consequences.html

"Had killer Alps pilot just been dumped? Claims depressed Lubitz was in 'love split' before he deliberately crashed plane killing 150 - as German police make 'significant discovery' at his apartment "

Depression in general, depression over a dame (how lame) or just converted to Islam?

Anonymous The other skeptic March 27, 2015 12:18 AM  

Well, at least one conspiracy theory is no longer regarded as a conspiracy theory.

Anonymous The other (robot) skeptic March 27, 2015 12:30 AM  

Claims that the pilot was a convert to Islam.

Anonymous Luke March 27, 2015 1:06 PM  

ajw308 March 26, 2015 5:41 PM
"This sounds like poor pitiful me stuff... but when you look at the numbers the career is pretty much like every other career choice. You start out making little... and move up over time.

I've heard stories about commercial pilots looking to get their 500 hours in working at places like Delta Junction, the middle of nowhere, for less then min wage, room & board, and the guarantee of 20 hours/week, min. It's sold as "paying your dues" and the lure of the big bucks flying the big planes keeps these guys grinding away, stressed out through layoffs, transfers, etc."
It's amazing what people will go through for a dangling carrot that they know, statistically, they'll never get.

Sounds more than slightly similar to people who get liberal arts Ph.D.s thinking they'll get tenured faculty jobs or who in high school have being professional athletes as their Plan A.

Blogger epobirs March 29, 2015 2:49 AM  

Well, the guy was certainly certifiable...

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