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Sunday, March 08, 2015

War propaganda doesn't fly in Berlin

The Germans are getting increasingly dubious about the way the US is reporting Russian activities in Ukraine:
Breedlove's Bellicosity: Berlin Alarmed by Aggressive NATO Stance on Ukraine

US President Obama supports Chancellor Merkel's efforts at finding a diplomatic solution to the Ukraine crisis. But hawks in Washington seem determined to torpedo Berlin's approach. And NATO's top commander in Europe hasn't been helping either.

It was quiet in eastern Ukraine last Wednesday. Indeed, it was another quiet day in an extended stretch of relative calm. The battles between the Ukrainian army and the pro-Russian separatists had largely stopped and heavy weaponry was being withdrawn. The Minsk cease-fire wasn't holding perfectly, but it was holding.

On that same day, General Philip Breedlove, the top NATO commander in Europe, stepped before the press in Washington. Putin, the 59-year-old said, had once again "upped the ante" in eastern Ukraine -- with "well over a thousand combat vehicles, Russian combat forces, some of their most sophisticated air defense, battalions of artillery" having been sent to the Donbass. "What is clear," Breedlove said, "is that right now, it is not getting better. It is getting worse every day."

German leaders in Berlin were stunned. They didn't understand what Breedlove was talking about. And it wasn't the first time. Once again, the German government, supported by intelligence gathered by the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), Germany's foreign intelligence agency, did not share the view of NATO's Supreme Allied Commander Europe (SACEUR).

The pattern has become a familiar one. For months, Breedlove has been commenting on Russian activities in eastern Ukraine, speaking of troop advances on the border, the amassing of munitions and alleged columns of Russian tanks. Over and over again, Breedlove's numbers have been significantly higher than those in the possession of America's NATO allies in Europe. As such, he is playing directly into the hands of the hardliners in the US Congress and in NATO.

The German government is alarmed. Are the Americans trying to thwart European efforts at mediation led by Chancellor Angela Merkel? Sources in the Chancellery have referred to Breedlove's comments as "dangerous propaganda." Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier even found it necessary recently to bring up Breedlove's comments with NATO General Secretary Jens Stoltenberg.
Read the whole thing. There is considerably more there about the way that Gen. Breedlove and Victoria Nuland are incessantly banging the drum for direct military conflict with Russia. Apparently Putin isn't Hitler yet, but give it another six months and he'll be sporting hair and a mustache.

Labels:

86 Comments:

Anonymous PhillipGeorge(c)2015 March 08, 2015 8:35 AM  

Dead silence on MH17.

Fraud has no statute of limitations. Keep a long memory lively.

Anonymous JB March 08, 2015 8:46 AM  

Isn't the German reluctance an effect of them a) brokering the cease fire b) being highly energy dependent on Russia (after stupidly gutting their nuclear energy capabilities). I.e. regardless what's going to happen, Washington will press on, but Berlin will try to de-escalate?

Blogger Jassi March 08, 2015 8:53 AM  

"Apparently Putin isn't Hitler yet" A lot of media would disagree. A quick search of "Putin Hitler" shows that they've been pulling the "Hitler!" card out incessantly over the past year. Forbes, WSJ, FOX etc have all likened him to Hitler in headlines.

To be fair, Putin has also compared the West to Hitler. Using the name Hitler in any way should be an automatic disqualification at this point as it amounts to little more than saying "poopy face."

Blogger Salt March 08, 2015 9:05 AM  

From a debt/GDP standpoint, who needs war more? Putin or Obama? No one is stumbling here, as "nothing in politics happens by chance." The war-hawks want Merkel in with them, but it's not surprising Merkel seemingly wants to sit this one out.

I've never been one to think nukes would ever be used, but as things are looking now I'd say there are people who are thinking "enough is enough" when it comes to US geopolitical activism.

Blogger sykes.1 March 08, 2015 9:14 AM  

The elimination of the US or, at the very least, its government has become necessary if there is to be any chance of world peace.

OpenID simplytimothy March 08, 2015 9:15 AM  

The EU proposes to rectify the problem of failed propaganda European Commission chief Juncker calls for EU army

Anonymous PhillipGeorge(c)2015 March 08, 2015 9:18 AM  

Ukraine is retaliation for Russian Kornet's in Hezbollah hands/ supporting Syria.

Yet if Israel had any guts gumption and conviction wouldn't they simply bulldoze the dome of the rock and glassify Damascus and Tehran if there were any objections? This is all about God. Vladimir might well pour out the very wrath of God on the USA for not caring about WTC7 and Israel for not bulldozing that dome. These are all just rods in God's hand. Look, a hundred no bull shit, no PR, no spin, plain speak words. Stuff everyone thinks but won't say.. And Germany hasn't got a Hitler in sight.

MH17 comes on top of MH370 comes on top of WTC7 comes on top of Port Arthur comes on top of Oklahoma, comes on top of Gulf of Tonkin, comes on top of USS Liberty, comes on top of......? Fukushima

A spade is a spade is a spade. Thank God the Germans, Italians, French are a voice of moderation sense and reason.

Blogger Stan Hai March 08, 2015 9:39 AM  

"Yet if Israel had any guts gumption and conviction wouldn't they simply bulldoze the dome of the rock and glassify Damascus and Tehran if there were any objections?"

Yes, if they were following the Torah. The fact that they don't suggests they don't totally believe it. But would God bless them if they did? I thought Jesus Christ represented a new agreement between God and man, one that is waiting for the return of Christ to set up the Messianic Kingdom & give said land to the Jews. Is He going to honor Israel's use of military force in the Old Covenant style?

Anonymous kfg March 08, 2015 9:41 AM  

" . . .if there is to be any chance of world peace."

If every human were eliminated, then humanity would rest in peace.
The rest of the world, however, would go right on fighting, because that is the way of the world.

Blogger Doom March 08, 2015 9:42 AM  

Two despots in a head-on collision course? I do support Ukrainian independence. But at this time, they have a choice between a Hitler wannabe and a Stalinist. Poland, a few years back, comes to mind. Then again, if Putin isn't stopped, he won't stop. That is the truth. Not sure the US has the stomach or Europe has the balls though.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan March 08, 2015 9:45 AM  

The Spec Ops and contractor types that are no doubt close to the action should remember how the Russians handled the Chechens, once they got serious and I'm not talking about the useless and needlessly destructive bombing of Grozny but the slow patient hunt for Chechens gone wild.

Anonymous Steve March 08, 2015 9:51 AM  

Doom - 'Then again, if Putin isn't stopped, he won't stop. That is the truth'

Stopped from what?
Won't stop where?

Blogger ScuzzaMan March 08, 2015 9:56 AM  

breedlove, strangelove ... life imitates art?

Anonymous kfg March 08, 2015 10:03 AM  

And now for my next act I'm going to set myself on fire. -Breedlove (Craig)

Anonymous ZhukovG March 08, 2015 10:08 AM  

Mein Fuhrer I can walk!!

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus March 08, 2015 10:12 AM  

Steve: "Stopped from what?
Won't stop where?"

Moscow.

Putin wants Russian domination of the Kremlin, and he won't stop!

One thing I agree with in the "Western" interpretation of Putin's actions: he wants to prevent a Russian 'Maidan.' In other words, he sees Kiev as a dress rehearsal for Moscow (which is correct) and he is fighting to defend Russia.

As a Russian patriot, he will not stop.

The neocons naturally see his determination to prevent the destruction of the Russian nation (including its Christian religion) as an intolerable act of aggression. This is consistent. They think Russia has no legitimate interest in the Ukraine, which must belong to neocons and the oligarchs, so why should they concede Russia any role in Russia? (And indeed they don't; someone already raised the possibility of Putin finding himself the loser in a similar fight inside Russian borders. The "colored revolution" concept is endlessly exportable, it seems.)

Moreover, America has submitted to neocon control; the nation is being destroyed by the multicult horror and Judeo-Christianity has supplanted Christianity, which is being driven out of the public square by law, while the menorahs rise high. So what gives the Russians the right to resist similar progress? Nothing, in neocon eyes, and the attempt to resist progress is a vicious act of aggression, so Russian supremacism must end. That's fair and reasonable -- if you are aligned with the neocons, and share their aggressive character.

Blogger S1AL March 08, 2015 10:13 AM  

Germans uncomfortable with a land war in Asia. Color me shocked.

Anonymous zen0 March 08, 2015 10:15 AM  

NATO, a redundant organization seeking a raison d'etre.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus March 08, 2015 10:15 AM  

ScuzzaMan: "breedlove, strangelove ... life imitates art?"

I was thinking of General Turgidson. Yes, life does seem to be imitating art when it comes to the general.

But when it comes to Victoria Nuland, people like her, and their activities, Hollywood is silent.

Blogger Vox March 08, 2015 10:19 AM  

Then again, if Putin isn't stopped, he won't stop. That is the truth. Not sure the US has the stomach or Europe has the balls though.

Don't be an idiot, Doom. Putin is not the bad guy here. He's not a good guy, but he isn't the bad guy either. The bad guy is the USA, which put a fascist government in control in Kiev, then looted the gold from the Ukraine.

If Russia had done the same to Canada, then Putin would be the bad guy.

Anonymous ZhukovG March 08, 2015 10:28 AM  

I should be used to it by now, but I just can't fathom people who, no matter what well reasoned argument is presented, cannot fathom that maybe, just this once, the US might not be the guy in white.

Blogger Vox March 08, 2015 10:34 AM  

I just can't fathom people who, no matter what well reasoned argument is presented, cannot fathom that maybe, just this once, the US might not be the guy in white.

Aristotle warned you about them. They are limited to the rhetorical. The fact that they may be on your side or not is irrelevant. They are incapable of being moved by information or reason. They can only be moved by emotion.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza March 08, 2015 10:36 AM  

My, how can others be so profoundly stupid to assert n' accuse Putin of being another Hilter - the mustache aint gonna fit you neoconning war whores.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus March 08, 2015 10:37 AM  

JB: "Isn't the German reluctance an effect of them a) brokering the cease fire b) being highly energy dependent on Russia (after stupidly gutting their nuclear energy capabilities). I.e. regardless what's going to happen, Washington will press on, but Berlin will try to de-escalate?"

Take a step back: why did Germany seek economic entanglement with Russia in the first place? In order not to have war, again (and again). Germany simply does not have a "third time lucky" attitude to war with Russia.

It's working. The Russians are happy just to trade with Germany, and the Germans don't want war with Russia.

It's the neocons, and now a general out of Dr. Strangeglove, that are overcoming that reluctance to foster war, or failing to.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza March 08, 2015 10:37 AM  

Ukraine wants to do business with the IMF, did everyone forget that? Russia wants nothing to do with the IMF, for the IMF's history has been a repetitive disaster

Anonymous zen0 March 08, 2015 10:57 AM  

@ Titus Didius Tacitus

I was thinking of General Turgidson.

Yes. Zbignew Bryzinzki is the good Dr.

But when it comes to Victoria Nuland, people like her, and their activities, Hollywood is silent.

Back in the Cold War, V. Nuland would not be allowed in the War Room. It was rightly assumed in those days that such a woman might get wet when she saw the Big Board and start getting decorative ideas.

Better she should get supper for Ward, Wally, and the Beaver. Much less destructive.

Blogger Doom March 08, 2015 11:03 AM  

Steve,

You are an idiot. He took Crimea, and will take Eastern Ukraine through his supported "nationals" in that area. He has also suggested there are other areas and countries he has interest in obtaining. If you want to bury your head up your ass, do so. But, don't act like it doesn't smell like shit. Just how many nations are checking their resources to see how they can resist Russia over there? Many, most actually. Idiot. Liar. Probably stooge.

I do wonder who is against Ukraine (or the perception of the EU (which I am also against as a general rule)) because they have bet for a Russian advance. And who is just stupid.

Blogger bob k. mando March 08, 2015 11:04 AM  

PhillipGeorge(c)2015 March 08, 2015 8:35 AM
Dead silence on MH17.



to be honest, i think there is a good chance that MH17 was a solely Uke op, whether the missile was fired by separatists or not.



JB March 08, 2015 8:46 AM
Isn't the German reluctance


German reluctance? okay, fine.

how does that explain that not a single other Euro intel service agrees with what Breedlove ( and isn't that the perfectly Orwellian name, given his speeches? ) is claiming?


Titus Didius Tacitus March 08, 2015 10:12 AM
The "colored revolution" concept is endlessly exportable, it seems.



not true.

Obama does not support any 'colored' revolution in Iran, remember? strange, that the only islamic country in which he does NOT consider overthrowing the .gov a good thing is the very one that he's going to allow to have a nuke program, don't you think?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Iranian_presidential_election_protests

Anonymous Mike M. March 08, 2015 11:10 AM  

Remember, we're dealing with the Obama regime. Crooks, cowards, thugs, and morons.

And it sounds like the Germans figured this out.

Having said that, Western Europe needs to rearm. Russia has a very long history of expansionism (ask the Poles). They're like France from Louis XIV through Napoleon - a powerful, expansionist nation that can only be contained by a coalition.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus March 08, 2015 11:14 AM  

zen0: "Yes. Zbignew Bryzinzki is the good Dr."

:D (nods)

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus March 08, 2015 11:17 AM  

LP 999/Eliza: "Ukraine wants to do business with the IMF, did everyone forget that? Russia wants nothing to do with the IMF, for the IMF's history has been a repetitive disaster"

Goodbye gold; hello IMF involvement.

I can understand the neocons: they hate white people and Christians, and they got the gold.

But the fascists who also considered themselves patriots who signed up for this and took Victoria Nuland's wages -- how can they be forgiven? They had magnificent and uncontested borders, peace, gold in the bank, and a semi-functioning democracy, which might have improved with time. Now they have reduced borders, civil war, empty bank vaults, debts, and domination by hostile financial manipulators.

They had a gorgeous population with a potential for a great future, and land: lots of land, including a lot of Russian land. Now unless there is a second revolution they will have the multicult horror. Ukraine will be an example for those who want to say there is nothing wonderful about white people: "what do you mean, talent for civilization? Look what a mess Ukraine is!"

What patriot, fascist or not, considers the future of his country and says: "yeah, that's what we need!"?

The coup was worse than a crime: it was a mistake.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus March 08, 2015 11:20 AM  

bob k. mando: "Obama does not support any 'colored' revolution in Iran, remember?"

I didn't remember till you reminded me. Thanks. You made a good point.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus March 08, 2015 11:30 AM  

Mike M.: "Having said that, Western Europe needs to rearm. Russia has a very long history of expansionism (ask the Poles). They're like France from Louis XIV through Napoleon - a powerful, expansionist nation that can only be contained by a coalition."

Russia is a nation with a history of not always grabbing everything it can, with an economy the size of Italy's, and with a recent history of reacting when it is prodded, hard. Before the coup, Putin was doing nothing about Ukraine except matching the EU bribe for bribe, which was just polite business in that part of the world. The neocons have an aggressive temperament, and lust for global domination; Putin is sober and knows he doesn't have the budget.

The Russian nation is not the enemy. The multicult horror is the enemy. Western European nations need to consider how they will avoid a Muslim and non-white future, not a Russian future.

The Russians are not guilty for Rotherham or any of the other horrors going on in Western Europe. And the big danger to English girls is not that they will be able to read Solzhenitsyn in the original.

Blogger Vox March 08, 2015 11:30 AM  

You are an idiot. He took Crimea, and will take Eastern Ukraine through his supported "nationals" in that area.

No, Doom, you are the idiot here. Putin RESPONDED to US aggression in overthrowing the elected government of Ukraine and robbing its treasury. There isn't anyone in Europe who is concerned about Putin, but there are a lot of people who are deeply concerned about the insane US neocons starting a war over here. You have no clue what you're talking about, all you're doing is parroting the US media propaganda.

Do you not even understand that the people living in Crimea are Russian? If Putin wanted to take all of Ukraine, he could do so by the end of the month. What he has been doing is a) protecting the Russian people in Ukraine, and b) destabilizing the US puppet government. Russia can accept an independent Ukrainian government, but not a US puppet one.

For crying out loud, if Russia had pulled this sort of shit in Canada, idiots like you would be calling for World War III.

Blogger maniacprovost March 08, 2015 11:36 AM  

So, when do we launch the land invasion of Russia? Next fall?

Anonymous Noodles March 08, 2015 11:38 AM  

Biden and his son are involved in Ukraine investment. Enough said.

Anonymous Susan March 08, 2015 11:39 AM  

Maybe it isn't flying in Berlin because Berlin set the standard for propaganda shovelers back in WWII and they can recognize the poor efforts of Obama behind what is going on in Ukraine.

The only people who don't recognize what a clown Obama is are the gimmiedats who voted for him twice and would yet again.

Anonymous Anonymous March 08, 2015 11:41 AM  

Biden family involved. Enough said.

Blogger bob k. mando March 08, 2015 11:42 AM  

Titus Didius Tacitus March 08, 2015 11:20 AM
I didn't remember till you reminded me.



credit goes to Whittle, i had forgotten as well.



Doom March 08, 2015 11:03 AM
You are an idiot.



look, i consider it likely that the Frontline report on Putin is mostly correct:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/putins-way/

but the fact remains, that doesn't make him any worse than Joe Biden. and frankly, this is the Asian way of doing business. they've been notorious for this for centuries now.

if anyone is the 'bad guy' here, it's *us* for already having failed in our guarantees to protect Uke sovereignty.

but, you know, when we are intimately involved in the overthrow of the .gov ...

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus March 08, 2015 12:23 PM  

maniacprovost: "So, when do we launch the land invasion of Russia? Next fall?"

I don't know. It would have been so much easier if Putin had agreed that Crimea should be an American military base and the Black Sea should be a NATO lake.

Anonymous Trimegistus March 08, 2015 12:34 PM  

Trouble is, this administration is completely unprepared for military action. Obama may be huffing and puffing, but if it comes to an actual confrontation, he's going to back down with his tail between his legs. I think this is simply more Obama arrogance plus stupidity and ignorance on display.

Anonymous Steve March 08, 2015 1:07 PM  

Doom - what Vox and Titus Didius Tacitus said. Putin is no threat to me and mine. Putin's enemies among the "leaders" of the Western nations definitely are.

But I'm intrigued by your response:

"Idiot. Liar. Probably stooge."

Rushing to insult someone you don't know just because they asked a couple of questions you don't like is very rabbit-like. Do you eat a lot of carrots?

Anonymous Just Mark March 08, 2015 1:08 PM  

I thought it obvious that Germany was realigning when they asked for their gold back a couple of years ago.

The US dollar is going too collapse the question is how many people are going to die because of that.

I think the world at this point is wise enough not to fuel a war and give the US an excuse. Will the US drop all pretense and start a flagrant war of aggression?

Anonymous A. Nonymous March 08, 2015 1:11 PM  

German reluctance? okay, fine. how does that explain that not a single other Euro intel service agrees with what Breedlove ( and isn't that the perfectly Orwellian name, given his speeches? ) is claiming?

Sounds like a Puritan bloodline.

Anonymous zen0 March 08, 2015 1:20 PM  

Sounds like a Puritan bloodline.



call the cops on the Breedloves
bring a bible and a rope
and a whole box of rebel
and a bar of soap


Tom Waits - Cold Cold Ground


Now I understand the Bible and a rope, and a whole box of Rebel bourbon, but what's the soap for?

Blogger Magister Wood March 08, 2015 1:23 PM  

The US is the world's SJW.

Anonymous ZhukovG March 08, 2015 1:23 PM  

While I don't think we are going to attack Russia, If I were planning to do it my target would be Petropavlovsk. It's far from the Russian center of power making it logistically difficult for Moscow. It's on the Pacific coast allowing me to use America's naval strength, plus a relatively short supply line from Alaska.

Japan and S Korea would not be used to reduce the chance of provoking China, which is also why I would not target Vladivostok. The amphibious assault would have to be made in Summer, but if successful holding Petropavlovsk would give us a powerful bargaining chip to force Russia to abandon Ukraine.

Of course China might decide that it would be in their interests to aid Russia and the combined Chinese and Russian submarine fleets could make things very uncomfortable. Russia alone would still be tough, so if Putin doesn't cave, we'll be fighting against Russian Partisans backed up by Spetsnaz teams and General Winter once the port ices up.

Blogger Chris Mallory March 08, 2015 1:45 PM  

Putin could conquer everything between the Urals and the Channel and it would still be no business or responsibility of the US government or the American tax payer.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus March 08, 2015 2:04 PM  

Magister Wood: "The US is the world's SJW."

I think so.

Social justice warriors are effectively human drones who serve the Professor Traitorsteins by whom they were half-educated. The SJWs lust for social status, which they do not deserve and are determined not to earn honestly, but which they get by status within the hive, from playing language games and reciting scripts that the "drone programmers" provide for them.

America serves a dominant ethnic complex, including the mass media, academia (again), and a wealthy, over-privileged elite including the neocons. It pushes values like multiculturalism, anti-racism and "diversity".

If General Casey, pushing the idea that a potential loss of "diversity" would be a greater tragedy from the Fort Hood jihad than the deaths and wounding of his soldiers, is not a "social justice warrior," who would be?

Again, following the scripts of people who are radically hostile to one's own ethnicity provides status. There are people who want that status, and will say and do anything, even or especially to those most related to them, to get it. Under the ruling anti-white elite, those status-seekers rule America.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus March 08, 2015 2:12 PM  

ZhukovG: "While I don't think we are going to attack Russia, If I were planning to do it my target would be Petropavlovsk."

The likely result would be the further subordination of Russia to China, as Russia accepted one-sided deals out of need for Chinese support.

This might be acceptable to the Elders of Wye, bearing in mind their vision of China as the next big host.

Blogger Doom March 08, 2015 2:31 PM  

You didn't ask questions. They were statements suggesting Russia is no threat to anyone. Again, you lie. While, of course, not answering to the fact that you lied in the first round. Look, your little game might be fine for fratboys, liberals, women, and those trying to get rich while denying their hands are bloody. But it isn't serious. You know that. There is no reason to converse with you again. You are an outright fraud.

Anonymous Steve March 08, 2015 3:22 PM  

Trimegistus - Obama may be huffing and puffing, but if it comes to an actual confrontation, he's going to back down with his tail between his legs.

One would hope so. There's nothing to be gained from a war between the US and Russia, and while the US has a far bigger and more modern military there's no guarantee its feminised, homosexualised armed forces have the stomach to win a war against a major adversary. Or that their political masters would let them. Or even that it's possible to "win" a war against the largest country on earth and its still-considerable atomic arsenal.

Obama seems to favour proxies and Chicago-style dirty tricks. But at least that implies he's sane enough or risk-averse to avoid direct armed conflict with Russia. I'm not sure the same could be said of John McCain or Mrs Clinton.

20 years ago the US stood alone as the world's only superpower. It had won the cold war, had an economy that was the envy of the world, had manageable debt, and was looking forward to a bright future.

In only two decades, the US government has squandered every advantage the American people ever enjoyed, and - not content with spending their way to ruin, inviting the Third World in to replace Americans, and turning the freedoms promised in the US constitution into a dead letter - bizarrely, they want to restart a new cold war with Russia.

How did it come to this?

Blogger Derrick Bonsell March 08, 2015 3:27 PM  

Doom, you forget that Russians have been the dominant ethnicity in Crimea, Donetsk, and Luhansk since the 1600-1700s Russian conquest of the Crimean Khanate. Not Ukrainians, who didn't have any significant identity at that point anyways.

Blogger bob k. mando March 08, 2015 3:34 PM  

Derrick Bonsell March 08, 2015 3:27 PM
Doom, you forget



no, no, let him go. Doom is to the "i'm not going to sleep with you" phase of his rhetorical pass.

Anonymous FP March 08, 2015 3:36 PM  

None of that matters Derrick. They voted to go along with the Ukranians (Kiev) back in the 90s when the Soviet Union fell. We can't take them seriously for wanting to go their own way now. I mean its only been like 20 years!

That was an actual argument presented to me on HotAir a few months ago.

Blogger Doom March 08, 2015 3:39 PM  

Derrick,

Yeah, and Mexican have been, or were, if maybe so again, the majority population in the U.S. SW. Your point?

Steve,

If you had just been honest, and suggested what you did in that last comment, instead of being pissy and lying, I wouldn't have jumped your smart ass. I don't agree, necessarily, with a war. But I do if that's what it takes to keep Russia from gobbling whatever it wants. I don't care about their tired old claims to empire, they murdered the leaders who created it, probably raping then murdering one of the daughters, thus requiring murdering the rest to keep the secret. Russia isn't an empire, just a sagging crap tyrannical nation, as usual.

As to why we are back to a potential cold war? Probably so the government can spend more money in it's stupid attempt to borrow their/our way to solvency. Haven't you been paying attention? So long as those who don't pay anything into the pot get a vote on how it is spent, this thing isn't ever going to work out. This is democracy... put in full control. So many people are depending on their little piece of the pie that nobody is willing to say, or do, anything. If you buy crap sandwiches, guess what you get to eat?

Bleh.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus March 08, 2015 3:46 PM  

FP: "That was an actual argument presented to me on HotAir a few months ago."

I found Hot Air shocking on the Ukraine conflict. Everyone blogging there uniformly picked up the party line. I was looking to see who would go with it and who would dissent, but there was no dissent.

And the commenters went along with that with no reservations. In days, not weeks, the old party line that the Russians are our buddies now was replaced by "Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia; Oceania has always been at peace with Eastasia."

Anonymous A.B. Prosper March 08, 2015 3:52 PM  

Doom, Cold War is over dude.

Anyway the only thing that is the responsibility of the United States is, drum roll. the United States.

So unless Russia gets stroppy and somehow decides to invade Alaska, nothing he does is our problem.

And sure you can scream about NATO responsibilities and all,

1st we ought to avoid such entanglements

2nd, NATO members aren't holding up their end at all. They have about 25% more population than we do among them and 1st rate economies, they need to have 125% of the troops and costs , divided among them than we do. Otherwise they are making Americans pay for their defense and indirectly pay for their cultural Marxist filth. Its bad enough being made to pay for it here but paying for theirs is even worse.

3rd Putin isn't terribly aggressive but even if he was, how would it make things much worse in Europe is the whole place was taken over by Putin friendly puppets? Gee, religions , traditionalism and procreation would encouraged. Scary. I suppose a few of the states might get a bit more corrupt but eh on the whole while I support European sovereignty its the Europeans job to keep it

4th . The real problems are Muslims and Africans and non Europeans not Russian expansion. They don't have the resources if they want too anyway

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus March 08, 2015 3:54 PM  

Doom: "I don't care about their tired old claims to empire, they murdered the leaders who created it, probably raping then murdering one of the daughters, thus requiring murdering the rest to keep the secret."

It wasn't Russians that murdered the Tzar's family; the killers hated Russians. And the same kind of people have a predominating influence in America now, which is why Benjamin Netanyahu can get as many standing ovations as he likes, addressing Congress with or without the permission of the American President.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper March 08, 2015 3:54 PM  

ah, I made a glitch on the last post. I meant to write 125% of what we contribute in costs > what i wrote was unclear. Sorry.

Anonymous Steve March 08, 2015 4:01 PM  

Doom - If you had just been honest, and suggested what you did in that last comment, instead of being pissy and lying, I wouldn't have jumped your smart ass.

What I wrote is above in black and pale yellow. I'll let others make their own minds up about whether I was "lying".

I don't agree, necessarily, with a war. But I do if that's what it takes to keep Russia from gobbling whatever it wants.

Whatever it wants? What if they just want their naval base in Crimea? Should US armour pour through the Fulda Gap to stop them?

What if they want Donetsk? Would you be prepared for a limited exchange of nuclear missiles to keep Donetsk Ukranian?

What if they menace Estonia? How many American lives is Tallinn worth?

I don't know what Putin wants, and you don't either. I know what I'd be prepared to pay to defend the sovereignty of some far-flung countries in Eastern Europe though: very little.

And if Putin causes serious problems for the ruling elites in the EU and US? What a terrible shame that would be! I suppose I'd just have to learn to live with it.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus March 08, 2015 4:09 PM  

Suppose Putin genuinely was aggressive, like Louis XIV of France: is rule by a Christian, European king the worst thing that can be imagined?

I can think of worse things, and they are already happening, wherever the Muslims and sundry non-white hordes are flooding in and displacing the native European populations.

We are not each others' enemies. Russian, German, American, Scot, French, etc. -- we have a common destiny and common interests best served by peace and serious efforts to take back our own countries.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus March 08, 2015 4:11 PM  

A.B. Prosper, the gist was clear enough.

Blogger Doom March 08, 2015 4:25 PM  

Steve, if they take those, they won't stop. If we run from their aggression we will simply die tired. The only point you might have is with the current prez. Even if that jackwagon got behind the thing, legitimately, he'd fuck it up. Does he even dress himself? Is he allowed to do so? Useless affirmative action punk. I suspect he is high on something half the time, or more. Literally, not a jab. Hmm, then again, so was Kennedy.

Titus, if we go nations simply taking what they want there will be much more of the behavior. In these times, I suppose sovereignty means nothing to most. Few are alive who remember what happened less than a hundred years ago, twice. Only, this time, who knows who has nukes, or who will use them. A tyrant, regardless of how he presents, is just that. Personally, I'd rather the next dictator type not pretend to be a Christian. Besides, who honestly thinks a former head of the KGB is Christian? I'm calling bullshit. Or... perhaps... if Al Capone claimed Christianity. There are those types. But they aren't Christians.

Anonymous ZhukovG March 08, 2015 4:29 PM  

Doom,

If you actually believe that Putin was head of the KGB, than you are too ignorant for this conversation. Nothing you say further, on this topic, can be believed to have any merit whatsoever.

Blogger ajw308 March 08, 2015 4:40 PM  

but if it comes to an actual confrontation, he's going to back down with his tail between his legs.
You are assuming he doesn't want to see the US destroyed.

Anonymous ENthePeasant March 08, 2015 5:16 PM  

There's a couple of things here. First off Russia is stretched to the limit militarily. Six months ago they were stripping units from their Chinese border to make ends meet in this tiny conflict in Ukraine. Secondly is Overlord Obama. His main goal is to destroy the US and advance third world shitholes, but his hate of all things western would lead him to take advantage of this situation to destroy Europe. I know, I know, CRAZY TALK!!!

Anonymous aaaturkey March 08, 2015 5:26 PM  

if you are worried about infringing a country's sovereignty then you'd know organizing and supporting regime coups to be breaching it and economic sanctions to be acts of war... American government is the problem, there and almost everywhere

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus March 08, 2015 5:33 PM  

Doom: "If we run from their aggression we will simply die tired."

That's highly relevant to white flight from "diversity". Diversity means chasing down the last white person. You can't run forever, because the government makes it its business to "integrate" wherever you flee.

It's not at all relevant to Ukraine, where the aggression began with Victoria Nuland's five billion dollar coup, continued with anti-Russian policies that forced Putin to react or see the Black Sea made a NATO lake and Crimea turned into an American military base, and escalated to the theft of Ukraine's gold.

It takes an incredibly aggressive mentality to think in terms of America "running" from Russian aggression in Crimea, which is Russian and about as far as possible from America. Seriously, look at a globe.

Doom: "Titus, if we go nations simply taking what they want there will be much more of the behavior."

The behavior of rulers like Putin, who don't want to cut a deal and disarm like Gaddafi did, and end up like he did when America attacked him in his then-defenseless state? Or will you admit that it's the rulers of America and its allies that are "taking what they want" now?

Doom: "In these times, I suppose sovereignty means nothing to most."

It sure meant nothing to America and her allies when it came to Libya. Or Ukraine, knocked over at American tax-payer expense. AIPAC doesn't seem to care about Syrian sovereignty either. Or Iran's.

Doom: "Few are alive who remember what happened less than a hundred years ago, twice."

There is much more anti-Hitler propaganda now than when he was alive and fighting, and to the making of WWII specials and Holocaust memorials there is no end, so I'm guessing you're not the only one in on the secret that there were European wars, and that there is a received narrative on them.

What really went on still is kept a secret, by means such as the usual suspects suppressing the English translation and mass marketing of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's 200 Years Together. But of course you weren't referring to that.

Doom: "Only, this time, who knows who has nukes, or who will use them."

And this is a good reason to pick a fight with Russia, over whether America or Russia has more right to dominate Ukraine, Crimea and the Black Sea?

Doom: "A tyrant, regardless of how he presents, is just that."

And subversive, destructive parasites like Victoria Nuland: what are they?

Doom: "Personally, I'd rather the next dictator type not pretend to be a Christian."

Judging by the massive support they give their leader Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, Russians aren't so bothered by the sight of a cross, or a national leader in church.

Doom: "Besides, who honestly thinks a former head of the KGB is Christian?"

Oh, so this is an alternate world fantasy of yours? Never mind.

Blogger Derrick Bonsell March 08, 2015 6:40 PM  

@FP: "They voted to go along with the Ukranians (Kiev) back in the 90s when the Soviet Union fell."

It's funny you mention that because when they had the referendum Ukrainians actually voted to stay in a federal union with Russia. The New Union treaty was only rejected by Georgia, Armenia, Moldova and the Baltics. The other republics voted for it. In Georgia the Abkhazian ASSR and the South Ossetian Autonomous Oblast unofficially participated in the referendum and it was just as overwhelming as it was anywhere else it was accepted.

It happened to fall apart in part because the Ukrainian government rejected part of the treaty's text and pulled out of the proposed "Union of Sovereign States."

Blogger Derrick Bonsell March 08, 2015 6:46 PM  

@Titus: "It's not at all relevant to Ukraine, where the aggression began with Victoria Nuland's five billion dollar coup, continued with anti-Russian policies that forced Putin to react or see the Black Sea made a NATO lake and Crimea turned into an American military base, and escalated to the theft of Ukraine's gold."

As to your second point here, I could easily see Ukraine booting out the Russian Black Sea Fleet unilaterally without the actions that took place in Crimea. Securing the peninsula then announcing a referendum was one of the greatest diplomatic coups in history. Even if an agreement is made over the Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts remaining under nominal Ukrainian sovereignty Crimea is not being handed over absent a war.

Anonymous redsash March 08, 2015 7:05 PM  

In 1783 the Khan of Crimea surrendered the Crimea to Catherine the Great. It had been a Russian protectorate up to that point.

Ukraine is a geographical land area at times run by Poland, Lithuania, Russia, Tartars, and even the Turks.

I don't believe Putin was around in 1783.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus March 08, 2015 7:47 PM  

Derrick Bonsell: "As to your second point here, I could easily see Ukraine booting out the Russian Black Sea Fleet unilaterally without the actions that took place in Crimea."

After the coup, the only thing I can think of that the Americans could have done to de-escalate the situation would have been to give the Russians a solid gold guarantee that that could never happen and that Ukraine could never be permitted to join NATO. But the American establishment never tried that. They wanted exactly what the Russians feared. And anyway, how to offer the guarantee? America has no word of honor any more.

So from a Russian national security point of view, the choice was clear: preempt or submit. But if the choice was to submit, further neocon aggression would follow and the choice could be repeated all the way to the Kremlin walls.

Derrick Bonsell: "Securing the peninsula then announcing a referendum was one of the greatest diplomatic coups in history."

One of the most popular anyway. Can you imagine anyone making a case to the Russian people, including Crimeans now, that this bit of the Motherland must be given away to foreigners after all?

Derrick Bonsell: "Even if an agreement is made over the Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts remaining under nominal Ukrainian sovereignty Crimea is not being handed over absent a war."

Absolutely right.

This is why I emphasize that Ukraine's situation is not merely one of civil war or even proxy war. Losses in war can be put right, sometimes. But Crimea is lost, permanently. There is no path back to Ukraine's former borders. A new government could consist only of blood relatives of Putin, and it still wouldn't be given the Crimea back. Even if Ukraine would go back into federation with Russia, no new Nikita Khrushchev will ever assign that bit of land to Ukraine again.

This is my go-to case for "wasting a windfall".

Blogger bob k. mando March 08, 2015 7:48 PM  

Doom March 08, 2015 4:25 PM
Besides, who honestly thinks a former head of the KGB is Christian?



dude.

when you start confusing Putin with G.H.W. Bush? probably time to get some coffee.

Anonymous Heaviside March 08, 2015 8:03 PM  

> In these times, I suppose sovereignty means nothing to most.

Yes, I supposed it means nothing to those who support the continued U.S. military occupation of Europe. Why does the office of SACEUR even still exist?

Anonymous Heaviside March 08, 2015 8:11 PM  

>Otherwise they are making Americans pay for their defense and indirectly pay for their cultural Marxist filth. Its bad enough being made to pay for it here but paying for theirs is even worse.

Ha! This is like an abusive husband blaming his behavior on his wife! What do you think all of those CIA operatives have been doing to the European press? What do you think the USIA was set up for?

Go complain to Petraeus and Kerry.

Anonymous Anubis March 08, 2015 8:13 PM  

"just this once, the US might not be the guy in white."
Joe Biden's son who was busted for cocaine was put in charge of the Ukraine's natural gas reserves, does white powder count? The coup d'état was funded by Soros and the Ukraine's 33 tons of gold went missing. It would cost pre coup Ukraine 10 years of its GDP to comply with the EU, which is a good enough reason for the democratically elected president to go against it before the coup d'état, and an even better reason for Soros to nation destroy.

Titus Didius Tacitus "The coup was worse than a crime: it was a mistake."
Everything you wrote is what Soros funds in all white nations, so it was not a mistake.

"Besides, who honestly thinks a former head of the KGB is Christian?"
He has supported Christians & Russian traditions, I would say he is more of a Christian than any democrat congressman that claims to be saved. Even if his support is just political to use Christianity as a stabilizing force how many US lawmakers would you consider better?

Anonymous Heaviside March 08, 2015 8:14 PM  

>NATO members aren't holding up their end at all. They have about 25% more population than we do among them and 1st rate economies, they need to have 125% of the troops and costs , divided among them than we do.

And why is this the case? Because NATO is not an alliance of sovereign states, but a figleaf to make the continued American occupation of Europe less offensive to the eyes.

Blogger Corvinus March 08, 2015 8:15 PM  

There's also a psychological factor going on: neocons, and Americans in general to a lesser extent, aren't afraid of getting in a war, because they've never lost one against a conventional army. Germany was beaten the crap out of, twice, in the last century, and so is far more reluctant.

Anonymous CarpeOro March 08, 2015 9:25 PM  

"Mike M.: "Having said that, Western Europe needs to rearm. Russia has a very long history of expansionism (ask the Poles). They're like France from Louis XIV through Napoleon - a powerful, expansionist nation that can only be contained by a coalition.""

If your going to bring up history, you really need to review it all for a region. In the case of Russia, they have a longer history of being invaded than being the invaders. Your missing out on the basic points that some of the better researched computer games cover. You think Napoleon was the first to invade Russia? Poland, Sweden, the Ottoman Turks, Golden Horde, Mongols... and that was just the big ones. The history of Russia is rather long and often very ugly regarding their relations with others. Ivan the Terrible didn't just pop up out of the blue, he grew up in a society where Moscow was the tribute collector for the Golden Horde. Before that, Kiev and Novgorod were the centers of power and culture. Destroyed by the nomad invaders and kept weak.
With the current Islamic threat, peace with the Russians is really as easy as leaving them and the bordering countries alone. With a society still suffering the results of communism they have enough on their plate. Of course with our current elite they look like a perfect target to distract us while they steal the middle class's wealth. We don't live in a majority Latin country, but we certainly have all of the signs of a banana republic.

Blogger Derrick Bonsell March 08, 2015 9:39 PM  

In these times, I suppose sovereignty means nothing to most."

See here's the problem with sovereignty. Sometimes the people actually on the ground have a different idea of what it means than the people in the capital. Just ask the pro-independence Catalans and the pro-independence Scots.

I would ask that Doom reads the Zerohedge piece. It pretty successfully makes the case that there isn't any evidence of a Russian invasion.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus March 09, 2015 1:08 AM  

Corvinus: "There's also a psychological factor going on: neocons, and Americans in general to a lesser extent, aren't afraid of getting in a war, because they've never lost one against a conventional army. Germany was beaten the crap out of, twice, in the last century, and so is far more reluctant."

That's true. Germany is also smaller and weaker than it was, much less ethnically cohesive, and suffering the effects of over half a century of continuous demoralization propaganda. (Which is intensifying, not slowing down.)

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus March 09, 2015 1:26 AM  

Doom: "Besides, who honestly thinks a former head of the KGB is Christian?"

bob k. mando: "dude.

when you start confusing Putin with G.H.W. Bush? probably time to get some coffee."

:D

Anonymous Giuseppe March 09, 2015 4:32 AM  

Aristotle warned you about them. They are limited to the rhetorical. The fact that they may be on your side or not is irrelevant. They are incapable of being moved by information or reason. They can only be moved by emotion.

And yet, those people, when faced with the option of sticking to their rhethoric, or deal with imminent physically painful consequences, invariably evolve into being able to do flawless dialectic. Over 3 decades of martial arts has demonstrated this to me with very few exceptions.
Truly they are the one thing that sometimes makes me wonder if, you know, they were suddenly to all disappear, what would this planet look like?

Blogger ErisGuy March 09, 2015 9:16 AM  

I’d be lot more sanguine if “former” communist Merkel weren’t negotiating with ‘former’ communist Putin.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper March 09, 2015 2:17 PM  

Heaviside, I think your point is basically accurate. However the US is at a point in which our occupation however benevolent is no longer affordable. Much as Rome got rid of Britannia we should do the same only carefully and over time so they can adjust to an independent defense posture.

In the short run, getting them to forces required by an actual defense pact will help them deal with the inevitable implosion of the US empire. when we become broke-ass Mexamerica and/or go to Civil War 2.0 footing.

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