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Thursday, April 23, 2015

A Thing to Remember

John Scalzi tried to call back one of his posts yesterday:
A Thing to Remember When Dealing With Sad Puppies
April 22, 2015 Uncategorized John Scalzi
[On second thought, this was not well-argued and I’m withdrawing it until I can more fairly and accurately make the point I want to make. Will update when I do. In the meantime, note to self: Don’t write screeds when operating under lack of sleep — JS]
Unfortunately for him, the Internet always remembers....
A Thing to Remember When Dealing With Sad Puppies
April 22, 2015 Uncategorized John Scalzi

I notice that some of those identifying with the Sad Puppies, and particularly Messrs. Torgersen and Correia, are out there puffing about, as if they are leading the charge against the horrible SJWs who control the Hugos, thinking of themselves out loud in a haigographically overblown manner as if they are already blocking out in their heads the inevitable Ken Burns 10-hour documentary of their heroic exploits. But in fact:

1. Nearly everything that was on the Sad Puppy slate that made it onto the Hugo ballot was also on the Rabid Puppy slate, promulgated by Vox Day.

2. Conversely, very little that was on the Sad Puppy slate that was not also on the Rabid Puppy slate made it onto the Hugo ballot.

3. Several things that were on the Rabid Puppy slate but not on the Sad Puppy slate made it onto the Hugo ballot.

Therefore, it’s Vox Day and not either Mr. Torgersen or Mr. Correia who was the true slatemaker here. Their roles are, at best, as supporting footmen in Mr. Day’s self-interested crusade (and at worst, as noted before, his useful idiots).

So when any of the Sad Puppies start barking about how they’re leading some sort of romantic charge against whomever, for whatever reason, or start blathering as if they are somehow responsible for anything with the Hugos this year, it’s entirely fair to point out that in fact, their slate largely failed, when the elements of their slate were not also supported by a self-interested bigot, an association with whom they are now desperately trying to flee.

They aren’t in control of any of this; they never were. They aren’t in a position to issue manifestos or self-congratulatory paeans to their moral rectitude because (among many other things) they didn’t get the job done; that was done by the aforementioned self-interested bigot. This isn’t their parade. The Sad Puppies can run in front of the parade with pom-poms and sparkly batons and made a lot of showy hand movements, but doesn’t mean that they’re leading it. The parade has already turned in a different direction, and they’re out there by themselves.

Which may be the saddest thing about the Sad Puppies: Apparently they don’t know that they are also-rans, the supporting act, and reduced to taking credit for someone else’s achievement, if “achievement” is the word to use here. The only way they can legitimately claim credit for (or have credibility discussing) any of this is to admit they’ve been working hand in glove with Mr. Day all along, which is something they are now loath to do. Otherwise, it’s all empty, pointless grandstanding, and ignorable as such.

Just a thing to remember when a Sad Puppy puffs himself up in a blog post or comment thread near you. You’re looking at a failure, trying very hard to convince himself — and you — otherwise.
I don't know why Scalzi felt the need to backtrack, it's no sillier than his usual blathering. I suppose his portrayal of me as an evil, self-interested mastermind manipulating the poor little innocent Baen authors tends to fly in the face of me being a ignorant jackass dipshit assbag shitbug or a chaos-loving madman who seeks only to destroy the One True Fandom. But regardless, if anyone wishes to flee an association with me, let him do so without criticism.

(It is interesting to observe the repeated accusations of self-interest in light of how he has been successfully engaging in this sort of "personal award pimpage" for nearly a decade now.)

In any event, I stand with the Dread Ilk. I stand with the Rabid Puppies. I stand with the Evil Legion of Evil. And I stand with #GamerGate. We don't reject anyone out of hand for simply existing or disagreeing with us. We don't demand that people think exactly the way we do, we don't expect them to march in lockstep with us, nor do we police their thoughts, speech, beliefs, or works. And we don't need anyone. If you don't like where things are going or how they are being done, you're free to leave at anytime.

I supported the Sad Puppies goals, even though I believed that their failure to grasp the true nature of science fiction's SJWs meant their well-intentioned attempts to reach out to the science fiction left and find common ground were likely to meet with eventual failure. But I have been wrong before, and so I saw no harm in the attempt. I did not use them. I did not need them.

I won't abandon the Sad Puppies. I will support Sad Puppies 4 and Kate the Impaler. I won't disavow them when I disagree with them in the future, just as I did not when I disagreed with them in the past. I will not criticize Brad Torgersen or Larry Correia even if they repent of their sins against the One True Fandom and are baptized in the urine of Teresa Nielsen Hayden before duly reciting the Litany of Hate against Vox Day. I do not, however, consider it likely that either of them will ever cower in the face of the SJWs rage, let alone submit and kneel before them.

Brad and Larry are not "desperately trying to flee" anything. They are not cowards. They have done nothing more than point out the entirely obvious. They are not me. I am not them. They are no more responsible for my words and beliefs and actions than I am responsible for theirs. They are good and decent men. I am not. But Sad or Rabid, none of us are fools who are so stupid as to fall for the transparent blandishments of a petty SJW like Johnny Con. There is no guilt by association.

Divide et impera is neither a new concept nor an unfamiliar one to any of us. And as for the constant barrage of emotional manipulations and posteriorpains and feelbads and feelsads to which we have been subjected, I am certain that our vile faceless minions speak for all of us in this regard.


Labels: ,

206 Comments:

1 – 200 of 206 Newer› Newest»
Blogger Mr.MantraMan April 23, 2015 6:39 AM  

I can't wait to get the reading packet so I can judge how good a scifi writer Scalzi really is.

Blogger Durandel Almiras April 23, 2015 6:45 AM  

I really like this logo that was sent to Nate. It still needs an extra something though, to really hammer home how terrible and evil we are, for we are oh so terrible and oh so evil because SJW's said so.

Anonymous Ain April 23, 2015 6:45 AM  

He produces a lot of fiction, for sure.

Anonymous zen0 April 23, 2015 6:55 AM  

"You didn't build that."

Just a thing to remember when Johnny Con puffs himself up in a blog post or comment thread near you. You’re looking at a failure, trying very hard to convince himself — and you — otherwise.

fixed it.

Anonymous Baltazar April 23, 2015 6:58 AM  

That Teresa Nielsen Hayden baptism comment...shudder. Your right Vox, when you say your not a good and decent man. The image of that for the tenth of a second it lasted...the horror, the horror...

Blogger Cataline Sergius April 23, 2015 6:58 AM  

He backtracked because he wrote the words "Vox Day."

Somewhere inside that weird little Gamma mind, using the Bad Name really gnawed at him until he had to delete the whole post.

Blogger Shimshon April 23, 2015 7:01 AM  

He backtracked because he used the word bigot instead of racist.

Anonymous Redjack April 23, 2015 7:03 AM  

It is like they think if they speak Voxs name, he will jump out of the mirror

Blogger rumpole5 April 23, 2015 7:20 AM  

You aren't good and decent? Your stated objectives and tactics appear to me to be straightforward and pure, as compared with the putrid, twisted, sinister, schemes of the spineless, spiteful, slobbering SJWs who oppose you.

Blogger Krul April 23, 2015 7:20 AM  

NON CURAMUS

Blogger Shimshon April 23, 2015 7:27 AM  

I think that he realized that, in his attempt to minimize Brad's and Larry's influence, he unintentionally gave you way more credit than he intended to. If he updates his post, he'll try to do the same thing, but without mentioning Vox or RP.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan April 23, 2015 7:27 AM  

The Left will rue the day they went "racial" they could have peddled anti-racism even it is a lie people can be traded on to be generally nice. Now they are peddling disqualification by race. Sure its roses right now for damaged whites and dipshit short term thinking jewish people but basically everyday from here on out is an ideological litmus test day after stinking rotten day, all the while the test becomes harder and more constrictive.

We offer Freedom from that bullshit, we will win.

Blogger Josh April 23, 2015 7:29 AM  

Well at least we've been upgraded from sycophants to useful idiots...

Blogger Salt April 23, 2015 7:34 AM  

Works nice as a Twitter avatar, Nate.

Blogger Jay Lucas April 23, 2015 7:34 AM  

By the law of SJW projection, I'd say this "the sad puppies are beaten, irrelevant and the tools of Vox Day" talk would apply to them...

Maybe Mr. Scalzi realized he's been working against his own interests all along by opening his mouth. Maybe he's gonna gather his strength to /really/ denounce folk tomorrow. After Sandifer put out 16k words maybe they think sheer length will get the job done?

Anonymous PhillipGeorge(c)2015 April 23, 2015 7:35 AM  

Time to wax lyrical again.
I've watched too many movies; a small lake of wasted words to navigate the memory through. Still, Tommy Lee Jones "I don't care" from the tired cynical FBI special agent in Fugitive remains stand out gold. The tired exasperated refrain being a thin veneer for indomitable hope, a slight fog obscuring the entrance to a well of belief.
If bitter twisted cranky cynical old bastards aren't the last line of defense to a better tomorrow - there is none. Strip bare the wall paper of cliches and platitude to see the pitted scarred sober and beautiful. Reality wins.

It's blog

Anonymous Peter Garstig April 23, 2015 7:37 AM  

If anything, this would have pushed the Sad Puppies more towards Rabid Puppies.

John is no mastermind.

Blogger Student in Blue April 23, 2015 7:39 AM  

Unfortunately, I must turn down my membership in the Evil League of Evil because I, in fact, do care just a tiny, teensy, little bit.

The entirety of my tiny teensy caring is wrapped up in hoping that the glorious trainwreck will continue delivering enjoyment, however. So in functionality, it's like I don't care.

Blogger Vox April 23, 2015 7:46 AM  

If anything, this would have pushed the Sad Puppies more towards Rabid Puppies.

Being a Gamma and a non-leader, John only thinks about the "the important people who matter importantly". He was trying to "isolate" me from Brad and Larry, and forgetting that there are several hundred people in both SP and RP camps. I don't think it ever occurred to him that even if he could somehow drive Brad and Larry from the field, that would mean either a) every SP who opposes the SJWs would join RP, or b) a new and more resolutely anti-SJW leader would arise in the SP camp.

Why, they might even call her "the Impaler". Anyhow, it's simply too soon to say if SP3 has failed yet. It has taken a few minor dings, but we won't know one way or the other until August. RP, of course, has succeeded beautifully, but its goals were much less lofty and considerably more attainable.

Anonymous Steve April 23, 2015 7:49 AM  

They are good and decent men. I am not.

Don't know if you've seen the rather excellent TV production of Fargo, but Billy Bob Thornton's sinister sigma character has a revealing exchange where he schools the put-upon gamma male Lester Nygaard:

Your problem is you've spent your whole life thinking there are rules. There aren't. We used to be gorillas. All we had was what we could take and defend.

The existence of men like Vox terrifies the rabbits.

Anonymous MendoScot April 23, 2015 7:54 AM  

OT: Volcano pron. Great lightning.

At one point, I'm sure a rabid puppy appeared in the flames.

Anonymous Daniel April 23, 2015 8:03 AM  

McRapey owed someone a blogjob.

Blogger Sherwood family April 23, 2015 8:06 AM  

Bless you, Vox. This practically brought a tear to my eye...of course, by liking this I realized I'm a soulless monster incapable of crying...but still...

It boggles my mind why people feel the need to join the Thought Police. Are they not busy enough with their own thoughts or projects without having to worry about others?

Others have said it before and I will repeat it: one of the reasons I come to this blog is because the exchange of ideas is free. You can argue. You can disagree. You can debate. So long as you make your points, offer evidence, respond to questions with substance instead of ad hominem attacks, it does not matter what your views or background are. Some views are less popular than others here and you might get shouted down. But it doesn't matter, if you can answer the critics, even if they don't agree, you can stay here and comment to your heart's content.

Try that elsewhere, especially on the SJW side of things and, as we have seen, your responses get deleted, you get ad hominem, you get attempts to disqualify, etc. What you do not get, far too often, is a vigorous exchange of ideas and views. It is all conformity there.

So thank you, Vox for making this a "safe space" for sane thinking and rational, logical argument.

Blogger JDC April 23, 2015 8:08 AM  

I think that he realized that, in his attempt to minimize Brad's and Larry's influence, he unintentionally gave you way more credit than he intended to

I was thinking the same thing. Can Vox simultaneously be the master manipulator, waxing and twisting his handle-bar mustachio's and malevolently guffawing while simultaneously being a RSHD? I think Mr. Scalzi concluded that he indeed could not. But we must cut him some slack...he's hurting AND tired.

Anonymous Cryan Ryan April 23, 2015 8:12 AM  

Mr. Scalzi's comment about barking dogs brought back a pleasant memory I want to share.

Had a beagle named Boss. Nicest litte family pet you could ever have. But when just a scent of rabbit entered his domain, he changed into a single minded, barking, chasing, and killing machine.

Round and round the briar patch would go the rabbit, with Boss following along, baying like crazy. When Boss would catch a rabbit, this nice little cuddly fella would shake it and maul it until it looked like it had been pulled through a knothole.

If I get another beagle, I'm gonna name him Vox.

Blogger Poor Guy April 23, 2015 8:16 AM  

"They are good and decent men. I am not."

ROFL.

Be that as it may, you are entirely and 100% correct on this matter. I have yet to see Scalzi or GRRM or anyone else make a case, or really attempt to, that the nominee's are unworthy of being nominated or unworthy of winning a Hugo. Until they can make that case, and they can't, then they really have no argument,

All the huffing, puffing and hullabaloo from their castles does not change this fact. If "Redshirts" or "If you were a dinosaur, my love" and some other rot were given awards, then their standards weren't too high anyways. Which is another great and wonderful thing the puppies - of whatever kind - have done. A real service to the genre!

Blogger Cataline Sergius April 23, 2015 8:16 AM  

Possibly he felt that he spoken too much Truth in public.

That would make him very uncomfortable indeed.

Truth is dangerous for a con-man. Use too much of it and you lose control of the Spiel. Lose control of the Spiel and you lose the Long-Con. He's all about the Long-Con.

Possibly, he felt he was shifting the Spiel too much. That's bad for a Con-man too. Shift the Spiel too much and the Mark doesn't know what to believe anymore.

Ever since the SFWA debacle, Scalzi's Spiel has been that Vox Day, is simply an insane voice crying in the wilderness and can be safely ignored. With one post he was changing that whole tale. He knows his Marks, they wouldn't be comfortable with a vanquished powerless opponent, suddenly acknowledged as being powerful again overnight. They might, just might stop trusting him.

Bottom line, Scalzi felt he had told too much truth to maintain control of the narrative he has constructed...And maintained.

Anonymous Earl April 23, 2015 8:19 AM  

What ever happened to the appellation of "McRapey"?

If that post was retracted for a lack of sleep... who writes for an hour, in their sleep?

OpenID cailcorishev April 23, 2015 8:29 AM  

This bit from Tom Selleck's first Jesse Stone movie pretty well sums it up:

Woman: You know, you're gonna need to be careful. Joe's mean, he's gonna wanna get even.
Jesse: Joe's a fake. Sometimes for a minute, he knows it, and he knows that I know it too. He isn't really tough.
Woman: And you are?
Jesse: Yes ma'am. I am.

The context is that he refuses to gloss over things, to pretend to buy anyone else's lies to get along. It's not so much his toughness that makes him dangerous, but the fact that he knows it and knows his enemies aren't, and doesn't pretend anything else for the sake of looking good or playing fair.

Anonymous Statweasel April 23, 2015 8:31 AM  

Scalzi repented of his post for two reasons:

1) It's an admission that you (who he hates far more than Correia or Torgersen) were wildly successful in setting out to do what you did. It burns to admit that so clearly and repeatedly.

2) It's an admission that if he defines the Sad Puppies as a "failure" (which he does), he necessarily concedes that the SJW forces were even more of a failure since they had no impact on the ballot at all.

Anonymous Jon Bromfield April 23, 2015 8:35 AM  

Lovely artwork! When will the t-shirts be available?

Blogger Jew613 April 23, 2015 8:39 AM  

Does scalzi not realize the divide the rp against the sp didn't work? I know its the standard leftist tactic but it hasn't happened in this fight. But scalzi is writing as if it did.

Anonymous Steve April 23, 2015 8:40 AM  

In turbulent times such as these, I take comfort in knowing there are skiffy authors such as Big Seanan McGuire, AKA Large Mira Grant, who know how to write a compelling story:

Seanan McGuire – ‏@seananmcguire

@sass_swift @shutsumon I have a book with an ace protagonist coming out next year.


When I was a wee lad in the 1980's, "ace" meant "cool". So will Big Seanan be writing about a rakish, devil-may-care space pilot who women love and men want to emulate? A dashing cavalier of the cosmos, a man who aims to misbehave and definitely would shoot Greedo first, but who - underneath his galaxy-weary cynicism - has a heart for romantic adventure and derring-do? The sort of man who rescues space princesses, smuggles Romulan ale, fights cylons, and has smoked kippers for breakfast?

No.

"Ace" apparently means "asexual", as in people who are so sad and wretched that not only can't they get Pon Farr at the sight of a pretty young Vulcan's logically heaving bosom (or space-codpiece), they don't even want to.

Fun times, right?

Seanan McGuire – ‏@seananmcguire

@sass_swift I hate that she has to literally give Asexuality 101 to her roommate, but since that happens IRL, I was cool with it.


Big Seanan has more Hugo nominations than she's had salads. She is Galactus, the devourer of fun.

Blogger Shimshon April 23, 2015 8:45 AM  

Sherwood, did you just use "safe space" in a non-ironic manner? A singular achievement.

Anonymous joe doakes April 23, 2015 8:50 AM  

Oh my God, I want one! Size 2XLT. Black, of course.

Anonymous Athor Pel April 23, 2015 8:53 AM  

It's funny that the ELE minion logo is black and red.
I was going to suggest a semi-official ELE minion uniform, all black except for a dark red shirt.

Anonymous Alexander April 23, 2015 8:57 AM  

Well at least we've been upgraded from sycophants to useful idiots...

Give it time, give it time. Remember, a year ago we were all sock puppets for some guy who didn't get 600 hits a month with an imaginary wife. We've come a long way. A guaranteed way to success is to get a slightly increasing slice of a rapidly increasing pie.

Anonymous MendoScot April 23, 2015 9:03 AM  

Breitbart is reporting that Milo just got purged from the Shorty awards after an SJW whispering campaign. Obviously more rightwing paranoia, nyet?

Anonymous p-dawg April 23, 2015 9:06 AM  

If someone does t-shirt-ize the logo, try to keep the price under $27. I think I'll include it in my .signature. Might as well let people know who they're dealing with.

Blogger Nate April 23, 2015 9:09 AM  

Nos non curat

Blogger wrf3 April 23, 2015 9:11 AM  

It has to be about Brand and Larry. It can't be about Vox. That would mean that the man Scalzi had thrown out of the SFWA now has him by the ... whatever substitutes as balls on Scalzi.

Mindbleach! Mindbleach, stat!

Anonymous p-dawg April 23, 2015 9:13 AM  

@MendoScot: I guess there's a reason no one has ever heard of "the Shorty Awards". I thought it was some kind of beauty contest at first, because in my neighborhood, a "shorty" is either a kid or a female, depending on context.

Anonymous Jon Bromfield April 23, 2015 9:13 AM  

"Big Seanan has more Hugo nominations than she's had salads. She is Galactus, the devourer of fun."

Damn you, Steve! I now have espresso all over my laptop!

Big Seanan will be at Sasquan, bringing her own event horizon. I will post photos to compare and contrast with her ridiculous avatar.

Scalzi is also on the participants list. Lordy, Sasquan is gonna be fun!

Anonymous Paul April 23, 2015 9:14 AM  

It appears that on the back of the minion in the foreground is a rocket-pack like those from Rocket Robin Hood, with the circle around the head also similar to the helmets from the same show. Are these standard-issue minion kit, or is a requisition form needed?

Blogger CSAFarmer April 23, 2015 9:15 AM  

Middle-aged white guy here (so, you know, 'born wrong' according to some), let me tell you what the happy mayhem initiated by Mr. Beale reminds me of.

You may remember (from when SF was good) the GR Dickson books in the Dorsai series; the one that springs to mind is 'Tactics of Mistake', in which the protagonist gradually draws his opponent into ever-increasing conflicts, setting up the ultimate battle conducted entirely on his own terms.

Of speclal note is that the protagonist DID NOT LEAD the final battle; the campaign was carried out by his lieutenants and a rag-tag army of 'rrregulars'. They carried a world to victory.

It appears obvious to me that the SJW's/cliques/holier-than-thou's etc have no idea of the real battle they are in; or perhaps more accurately they have no idea of the real nature of the campaign being conducted by Mr. Beale and the Ilk. They still think its about the Hugo.

This is not surprising, they are pretty much predictable in their actions and reactions (almost Pavlovian), say a 'trigger' word and get a yelp, precluding any actual comprehension or analysis of the topic under discussion.

They also don't understand how their hand-wringing, concern-trolling, psuedo-outrage-flinging behaviour appears to anyone not in the clique; it is laughable. Ironically, they keep proving Mr. Beale's statement ''SJWs always lie''.

This is turn means they have ceded the right to benefit of the doubt; I for one, as a formerly mostly-disinterested observer, now actively wish their whole cabal to blow up spectacularly (and I would imagine I'm not the only one).

So they don't know it (and may be incapable of accepting it) but Mr. Beale has already won this little 4GW campaign. The SJW's have lost the moral high ground. The backlash will be enormous.

Anonymous bub April 23, 2015 9:19 AM  

vistaprint.com, for one, will make a custom t-shirt pretty cheaply. I priced one with the minion logo, $12-16, added a rabid puppies on the back, $17-21, all full color. Need higher-res images for both, but very much for the RP logo.

Blogger Jourdan April 23, 2015 9:19 AM  

There are a number of positives arising from Vox's victory in this battle, but to my mind here are the top two:

1) demonstrated to potential allies that there is no discussion or debate possible with the Left; and

2) demonstrated that single-issue organizations that organize on that principle can be much more effective than 40 plus years of mainstream Republican conservatism, i.e. Vox accomplished more against the left in a matter of months than Rush Limbaugh and National Review have accomplished in decades of hot air.

Anonymous Daniel April 23, 2015 9:20 AM  

The retraction can come for another reason: McRapey's contract with Tor is up, and he's hoping to get Baen back to neutral towards him at worst.

Blogger JartStar April 23, 2015 9:32 AM  

The retraction can come for another reason: McRapey's contract with Tor is up, and he's hoping to get Baen back to neutral towards him at worst.

Bingo.

Blogger Marissa April 23, 2015 9:36 AM  

Maybe he realized that RP was not a slate until after registration for nominations had been closed. I used to think this was because a lot of SPers voted Vox's slate. But what it might really mean is that a whole lot of run-of-the-mill science fiction fans, not Ilk, fed up with the nonsense that has taken over, voted for the RP slate.

Anonymous Peter Garstig April 23, 2015 9:39 AM  

What ever happened to the appellation of "McRapey"?

Maybe it stopped the moment Mr. Scalzi called Mr.Day Mr.Day again, instead of homophobic dipshit. Maybe Vox is just getting nice and soft: like a fluffy bear.

Anonymous Alexander April 23, 2015 9:39 AM  

Daniel nails it. John "All lawn, no job" Scalzi is not wanting to lead a charge when his own interests are on the line.

Anonymous MendoScot April 23, 2015 9:41 AM  

Love the Dorsai ref, CSAFarmer - wasn't it three battles to victory?

I agree that the strategic win in this first round is not the Hugos, but to strip them publically of the moral high ground. They have publically lied, slandered and discriminated against protected minorities. We have the links and the screenshots, so when the battlefront widens they are not only going to be taken by surprise, they will find themselves woefully short of ordinance.

Anonymous SideBurns April 23, 2015 9:45 AM  

I wonder how often the eunuch king catches himself parsing, or even swallowing his words for fear that he would run afoul of his current masters. He could sit down with Vox, or Mr. Correia, or Mr. Wright, and they could have it out on every issue under the sun and when it was over, go fishing and have some beers like it was nothing. But to deviate even slightly, or to disagree ever so minutely with his current crowd, and it is persona non grata in the blink of an eye. I mean, with everything he has seen and participated in, he has to know this. He has to at least feel it. How could he not? He does still see a straight white male whenever he looks in the mirror doesn't he? He has to know that chapping his lips on the right asses is only going to work for so long. Eventually, he will outlive his usefulness and be just another white male that needs to step aside so the more "worthy" people can have a shot. I mean, could he really be that blind?

Anonymous Jeromus April 23, 2015 9:49 AM  

You can bet your ass that I am paying $40 next year. I was hesitant this time around but after seeing how much the SJWs are flailing about, I cannot afford to miss the fun next time.

Blogger Nate April 23, 2015 9:52 AM  

I have it on good authority that gear will be available soon.

Blogger Nate April 23, 2015 9:53 AM  

"You can bet your ass that I am paying $40 next year."

why wait? buy in now and you this years whole packet... the right to vote this year... and the right to nominate next year.

Blogger Shimshon April 23, 2015 9:56 AM  

I paid my $40. I expect I will be entertained.

Anonymous Steveo April 23, 2015 10:01 AM  

Erosion. The tide turning changes everything, but they don't know if it's coming or going. It's time for them to chip their rear echelon & start the loyalty oath!

Anonymous brotha knight April 23, 2015 10:01 AM  

"The retraction can come for another reason: McRapey's contract with Tor is up, and he's hoping to get Baen back to neutral towards him at worst."

So why are we not Black Knighting the shit out of this?

Anonymous Jon Bromfield April 23, 2015 10:02 AM  

"...there is no discussion or debate possible with the Left;..."

And no compromise. This is total war.

"...McRapey's contract with Tor is up, and he's hoping to get Baen back to neutral towards him at worst."

After his latest dry fart of a novel fails to even match the sales of LOCK IN and Tor passes on his book proposals, look to see the Chinless Wonder becoming increasingly conciliatory in a desperate attempt to curry favor with Baen and others.

It won't work. In this fight the middle ground is No Man's Land.

Anonymous dh April 23, 2015 10:08 AM  

It will be interesting to see what if anything JS does with Tor or another publisher. They can crow all they want about what a big author he is, but despite what appears to be a considerable promotional budget Lock In was not a huge smashing success. He's gone back to a more stable productline for his next book, in his OMW series.

I have long thought that JS sort of hated his OMW series since it's a transparent fanfic of other work, and in his mind he's a serious author, who writes original things. But his original works are not his most popular work.

Anonymous Roundtine April 23, 2015 10:09 AM  

Scalzi will have a "come to puppies" moment as soon as he sees the winds have shifted.

Anonymous dh April 23, 2015 10:10 AM  

Jon, I doubt Tor lets Scalzi go without something of a fight. It's just economic reality is what it is. His last book tour he was posting pictures from the higher floors of upscale-ish hotels in bigger cities and taking selfies with his room service.

It could be advances, royalities, travel/promotional budget, etc, and I would imagine he would not (rightfully in my opinion) be too happy to share those details.

OpenID cirsova April 23, 2015 10:12 AM  

"That Vox Day! He's such an evil genius. We can't stand how brilliant and masterfully he's outmaneuvered us! The wicked chessmaster has made pawns of us all!" - everything I've been reading for the last three days.

Bravo. ::slow-claps for the dashing pirate lord::

Anonymous Elijah Rhodes April 23, 2015 10:12 AM  

Vox, you should consider writing a book about SJW-ism and how to fight them. Think of it as the definitive Anti-Alynski field guide, a user manual for the defenders of civilization.

Anonymous Steveo April 23, 2015 10:14 AM  

Marissa - "...But what it might really mean is that a whole lot of run-of-the-mill science fiction fans, not Ilk, fed up with the nonsense that has taken over, voted for the RP slate."

Bingo. Or to tweak a bit, But what it might really mean is that a whole lot of run-of-the-mill science fiction fans, not (just) Ilk, fed up with the nonsense that has taken over, voted for (what they liked on) the RP slate.

It's the way it should be, just not the way McRapey can win.

Blogger jay c April 23, 2015 10:15 AM  

RP, of course, has succeeded beautifully, but its goals were much less lofty and considerably more attainable.

What with the "proper application of high explosives" and all.

Anonymous scoobius dubious April 23, 2015 10:18 AM  

"won't abandon the Sad Puppies. I will support Sad Puppies 4 and Kate the Impaler."

Frankly, although I do tend to support the whole Sad/Rabid/Gamer Puppies thing out of sheer cussedness without really understanding the important issues, just cuz you guys have pulled an attitude and that's fine with me, I'm even more inclined to cheer for a squad that includes somebody named Kate the Impaler.

For those of you playing along at home who don't understand humor theory...

"Sad Pupppies" is an actual, witty, bona fide joke.
"Rabid Puppies" is a gloss on a joke, not a joke in its own right. It's commentary, not the ding an sich. Still effective, and rather catchy, so I'm not making a swipe, just trying to clear up a theoretical point. Like telling you the difference between a Malbec and a Sauvignon Blanc.

Anonymous Jon Bromfield April 23, 2015 10:21 AM  

"Scalzi will have a 'come to puppies moment...'"

No way. His wife would take away his dog collar and his daughter would beat the shit out of him.

Vox is right. He hopes to transition to films and TV where his mediocrity works to his advantage . His future in games is stillborn because his name in that world is now anathema.

Blogger bob k. mando April 23, 2015 10:23 AM  

what happened to the semiotic meaning of a flaccid rocket?

Anonymous Bz April 23, 2015 10:25 AM  

"Big Seanan has more Hugo nominations than she's had salads. She is Galactus, the devourer of fun."

She's SO BIG she has her own Silver Surfer.

Anonymous Stilicho April 23, 2015 10:27 AM  

If anything, this would have pushed the Sad Puppies more towards Rabid Puppies.

Exactly, Peter. My first thought on reading that was: TLDR--Sad Puppies should join the Rabid Puppies 'cause that's where the fun is.

Anonymous Jon Bromfield April 23, 2015 10:29 AM  

"...I would imagine he would not (rightfully in my opinion) be too happy to share those details."

He did admit that his book tour probably only broke even. I read that as a serious loss for Tor. But you may be right. Lefties are okay with losing (other peoples' ) money if it promotes the agenda.

Blogger bob k. mando April 23, 2015 10:33 AM  

also, this would seem to be a good time to revive my political party; the Militant Apathists.

motto: Defending to the death, your right not to care!

Blogger slarrow April 23, 2015 10:38 AM  

Marissa, part of it the confusion over "slates" is that people never actually looked at them, I'm thinking. Compare the SP and RP lists, and it's clear that Rabid Puppies is Sad Puppies plus Castalia House. I just followed the link in the sidebar to the original RP post and followed its link to the canonical SP post, and here are the divergences (* denotes an original nominee, ^ shows an added nominee, and please pardon any typos or cryptic abbreviations):

On RP but not SP: Plural of Helen of Troy*; Pale Realms of Shade*; Yes, Virginia*; Coherence, Vox Day* (short and long editor); Kirk DouPounce^; Black Gate*; Rolf Nelson*

On SP but not RP: Abyss & Apex*; Andromeda Spaceways*

SP/RP conflicts: Trial by Fire/Chaplain's War; Tuesdays/Turncoat*, Single Samurai^/Parliament*; Adventure Time/Supernatural, Regular Show/Game of Thrones*; Dave Freer*/Daniel Enness

So to return to your point, Marissa, here are all these voters who are committed to buying, evaluating, and nominating works for Sad Puppies. Nominations close, the SP recommendations come out, and a day later RP noms come out. If you're by nature a Sad Puppy voter who also really likes John Wright, you're going to look a lot like a Rabid Puppy even if you've never visited this site beyond a link to their recommendations and don't share the "I don't care" mindset.

People like Johnny Con don't understand what Rabid Puppies did with the Sad Puppies list. RP didn't hijack it or wrest it away or subvert it or any of the other nonsense I've seen. RP amplified the signal. What detractors fail to realize is that if there had been NO Rabid Puppies list, the signal would have been amplified anyway. I have little doubt that the readers here would have read and nominated the SP works even without the Castalia House additions (although even then John Wright and Vox Day would have made some nomination lists.)

Basically, the differences between the two lists are more John Wright...and Vox Day. It always comes down to Vox Day and how they hate him. I'm a little more than halfway expecting Vox to recommend Toni Weisskopf and Mike Resnick when voting opens just to watch his opponents' heads explode.

Blogger IM2L844 April 23, 2015 10:39 AM  

They are good and decent men. I am not.

I know what this means, but you just know this is going to be taken and twisted into: "See? That right there proves he is a self confessed hatey McHate woman hater and a degenerate racisss loon!"

Anonymous Jon Bromfield April 23, 2015 10:47 AM  

Watch Scalzi as he cuts his own throat!

He tweets:

"The delight of the last 24 hours: seeing so many howling GamerGaters howl with irritation that I donated to @femfreq. It pays for itself!"

Now Johnny, tell all those nasty GamerGaters they're shitbirds and you don't want their money!

As Alex Seropian slaps his forehead and screams "Who the hell hired this idiot!"

As his wife plans her exit strategy....

Anonymous Mr. A is Mr. A April 23, 2015 10:47 AM  

"I am Spartacus!"

"I am John Galt!"

"I am Vox Day!"

Anonymous Steve April 23, 2015 10:48 AM  

Jon Bromfield - You are a lucky man!

I'd love to go to Sasquan, or as it's shaping up to be, Saltapalooza.

Just be careful where you tread - I wouldn't want to accidentally find myself caught between Big Seanan and a buffet table.

Bz - She's SO BIG she has her own Silver Surfer.

For many years, astronomers wondered what the mysterious, galaxy-pulling gravitational anomaly known as the Great Attractor was.

Then they realised it was Seanan's lunch.

Blogger Cataline Sergius April 23, 2015 10:51 AM  

.. I doubt Tor lets Scalzi go without something of a fight. It's just economic reality is what it is. His last book tour he was posting pictures from the higher floors of upscale-ish hotels in bigger cities and taking selfies with his room service.

The Nielsen-Haydens have over invested themselves in the New Heinlein. So long as they are at TOR, Scalzi will find a safe, soft landing whenever he wants to come home.

But I suspect he wants to be done with books, while he works on TV. He can portray himself to Hollywood as a "Best Selling Science Fiction Author," only so long as no one looks too closely at the numbers. This last promotional one was really just a victory tour for Red Shirts so far as Scalzi was concerned. Last thing he wants is another book landing in the mid-list right now.

If Red Shirts the TV Show takes off, TOR will get first dibs on a book tie series that other people will write for Scalzi on a pittance of a one time advance. Scalzi will get royalties galore: books, action figures (etc). He can build himself up enough to get a BIG money book contract, next time.

Or at least that's the dream. I have little doubt he adapt well to life amongst Hollywood's huckster, hustlers, scam artists and back stabbing thieves.

There is however the problem of getting anyone at all to watch the show.

Blogger Vox April 23, 2015 10:51 AM  

People like Johnny Con don't understand what Rabid Puppies did with the Sad Puppies list. RP didn't hijack it or wrest it away or subvert it or any of the other nonsense I've seen. RP amplified the signal.

Precisely.

I'm a little more than halfway expecting Vox to recommend Toni Weisskopf and Mike Resnick when voting opens just to watch his opponents' heads explode.

I won't even be recommending myself second in the long form category. As for short form, regardless of how it turns out, I've already received the award I care about.

Anonymous daddynichol April 23, 2015 11:01 AM  

Does scalzi not realize the divide the rp against the sp didn't work? I know its the standard leftist tactic but it hasn't happened in this fight. But scalzi is writing as if it did.

SJWs alway lie. Remember that when you read Scalzi's comments.

Blogger Shimshon April 23, 2015 11:02 AM  

"As for short form, regardless of how it turns out, I've already received the award I care about."

This is how Vox says "You like me, you REALLY like me!"

Anonymous BigGaySteve April 23, 2015 11:03 AM  

Scalzi cries that Brad & Larry are but puppets dancing on Vox's strings then retracts when he notices the strings on himself.

"So thank you, Vox for making this a "safe space" for sane thinking and rational, logical argument."

Vox Popoli a safe space for dangerous visions/thoughts

They are not me. I am not them. ~ I have posted links to the Honey BB story and some people thought I was Vox.

Breitbart is reporting that Milo just got purged from the Shorty awards after an SJW whispering campaign.

They whispered that he is a size queen and wouldn't be satisfied with a SJW.

Blogger Feather Blade April 23, 2015 11:03 AM  

Seanan McGuire – ‏@seananmcguire

@sass_swift I hate that she has to literally give Asexuality 101 to her roommate, but since that happens IRL, I was cool with it.


She hates it, but she's cool with it. Uh-huh.

She's the author. One would think that she had some control over what her characters do and say.

Blogger John Wright April 23, 2015 11:06 AM  

@ Steve

"When I was a wee lad in the 1980's, "ace" meant "cool". So will Big Seanan be writing about a rakish, devil-may-care space pilot who women love and men want to emulate? A dashing cavalier of the cosmos, a man who aims to misbehave and definitely would shoot Greedo first, but who - underneath his galaxy-weary cynicism - has a heart for romantic adventure and derring-do? The sort of man who rescues space princesses, smuggles Romulan ale, fights cylons, and has smoked kippers for breakfast?"

Sir, you are a poet.

And watch all the same Sciffy teevee shows I do.

I salute you.

This is going up next to the 'I wanted the Roc's egg' speech from GLORY ROAD in gold letters on my wall of awesome if I had a wall of awesome.

Anonymous Jon Bromfield April 23, 2015 11:06 AM  

"...I wouldn't want to accidentally find myself caught between Big Seanan and a buffet table"

I'm more worried that tidal forces will suck me into her fat folds, where I will spend eternity with Mrs. Fields, The Keebler Elves, Ben and Jerry, and the Frito Bandito!

Anonymous Giuseppe April 23, 2015 11:06 AM  

Statweasel,
1) +100

Anonymous Porky April 23, 2015 11:08 AM  

Can't wait to hear what Kjell Lindgren has to say about the puppies. I have a feeling the SJW's won't be too pleased.

Anonymous Mr. A is Mr. A April 23, 2015 11:09 AM  

Feather Blade April 23, 2015 11:03 AM
She's the author. One would think that she had some control over what her characters do and say.


She hates that she lives in such an unenlightened, unwashed, oppressive society that she has to *explain* this concept to her readers (at those least outside the clique). She has to "waste" the 101 lecture to ensure we have our necessary indoctrination delivered.

Anonymous Steve April 23, 2015 11:12 AM  

Cataline Sergius - There is however the problem of getting anyone at all to watch the show.

That is indeed a problem. How big is the potential audience for a longform version of Galaxy Quest, but without any likeable characters?

And based on a conceit that's thinner than a wet tissue - fictional Star Trek type TV show comes to life. How meta. Galaxy Quest did it better.

Where can writers go with that concept? It's inherently limited. It might work as a low budget miniseries, like "The Lost Room".

Maybe I'm wrong, and there really is a large audience out there in TV land, hungry for a cheaper version of Star Trek but with a reverse-liposuction to evacuate all the grandeur and sincerity and replace it with snark.

Blogger Marissa April 23, 2015 11:13 AM  

Steveo, a much better expression of what I was trying to say, thank you. I actually didn't nominate because I didn't have time to read the works. I did buy a supporting membership in order to 1) vote this year on the nominated works I'm able to read (so I probably won't vote on Best Novel), 2) keep an eye out for 2015 works that are worthy of nominations next year.

I remember reading the Toad complaining about a bunch of first-time voters. Well this is the first time a lot of us voters have a reason to read current works instead of reading stuff published back before I was born (speaking for myself).

She's SO BIG she has her own Silver Surfer.

She literally has 3 silver cats, each with a minimum of six names and a minimum of a 5-paragraph biography.

If you're by nature a Sad Puppy voter who also really likes John Wright, you're going to look a lot like a Rabid Puppy even if you've never visited this site beyond a link to their recommendations and don't share the "I don't care" mindset.

People like Johnny Con don't understand what Rabid Puppies did with the Sad Puppies list. RP didn't hijack it or wrest it away or subvert it or any of the other nonsense I've seen. RP amplified the signal. What detractors fail to realize is that if there had been NO Rabid Puppies list, the signal would have been amplified anyway. I have little doubt that the readers here would have read and nominated the SP works even without the Castalia House additions (although even then John Wright and Vox Day would have made some nomination lists.)

Basically, the differences between the two lists are more John Wright...and Vox Day. It always comes down to Vox Day and how they hate him. I'm a little more than halfway expecting Vox to recommend Toni Weisskopf and Mike Resnick when voting opens just to watch his opponents' heads explode.


All good points, slarrow. I'm trying to understand just what happened and what has scared the in-crowd so much. It's kinda mysterious.

Blogger Poor Guy April 23, 2015 11:15 AM  

Yahoo Screen has an 8-episode thing called "Other Space", obviously a parody of the whole genre, which wasn't as bad as I expected. Not that it was great or anything. I doubt I would watch if they made 8 more.

Blogger Marissa April 23, 2015 11:19 AM  

and has smoked kippers for breakfast

Now that's something I can respect. Personally I like to flake them up with some avocado and make it the filling between cucumber slices. Yeah, I just gayed up kippers.

Blogger Shimshon April 23, 2015 11:21 AM  

"She literally has 3 silver cats, each with a minimum of six names and a minimum of a 5-paragraph biography."

Roughly 1600 words expended on three cat bios. That's 10% of Dr. Phil's whiny verbiage. On cats. I'm looking forward to what they have to say about SP, RP, and Vox.

Anonymous t.c. April 23, 2015 11:26 AM  

Hey guys,

So, I guess I decided to stick around. :)
Those who met me last week know that I am new around and even though I somewhat on the "other side", I definitely haven't come here to shout or insult or repeat empty phrases at you. I'm here for the discussion.

So, I've got a question, and anyone feel free to answer. I've asked this over on LC and BT's blogs as well, but haven't seen a response. If they did respond, I missed it.

I've come out and said that the Hugos need to be more inclusive of all types of scifi/fantasy, that too few are voting, and its not reflective of fandom as a while, and no one should be trying to define what "fandom" should be.

What I'm wondering - in the hypothetical situation that this process, the SP/RP goal works, and we start seeing mass increase in nominating numbers and submissions and whatnot and you start seeing the list of nominees becoming broader and not just "message fiction" (I know many think this goal is not a reality, but bear with me for the sake of the hypothetical), then my question is this: If all that works, will you also allow room (not all the nominees, just a few) for what you consider message fiction as well? If the Hugos also, every year, included good old-fashioned scifi/fantasy, would you guys also accept room for the message fiction as well? As long as the nominees were consistently including both? Or, do you think all "message fiction" should be done away with?

Just genuinely curious, thanks everyone!

Anonymous Porky April 23, 2015 11:27 AM  

Lindgren is everything the SJW's despise. A POC church going family man who loves Orson Scott Card, Heinlein, CS Lewis and Tolkein. He could probably out-academic any one of them but instead chooses to ride rockets into space for a living, while not one of the SJW's could ever pass the physical or meet the payload restrictions.

Blogger Poor Guy April 23, 2015 11:39 AM  

tc asks: " If all that works, will you also allow room (not all the nominees, just a few) for what you consider message fiction as well? If the Hugos also, every year, included good old-fashioned scifi/fantasy, would you guys also accept room for the message fiction as well?"

If the SP/RP get their way (our way, now that I aspire to be a puppy) it will all be based on merit. "Is this story/novella/novel good enough?".

Blogger Vox April 23, 2015 11:40 AM  

If all that works, will you also allow room (not all the nominees, just a few) for what you consider message fiction as well? If the Hugos also, every year, included good old-fashioned scifi/fantasy, would you guys also accept room for the message fiction as well? As long as the nominees were consistently including both? Or, do you think all "message fiction" should be done away with?

If message fiction is on the order of 1984 or The Chronicles of Narnia, it merits not only consideration, but awards. If it is well-written message fiction with no story and cardboard characters, it should be ignored.

It's not merely about message fiction. It's also about the idea that prose style is the most important aspect of a work of fiction. It isn't. It's probably #3, after Story and Characters, but ahead of Concepts.

Blogger Sam Hall April 23, 2015 11:40 AM  

would you guys also accept room for the message fiction as well?

Yes, if it is a good story. It is the story that counts, not the "message". I just reread Cedar Sanderson's Vulcan's Kittens with a sword wielding teen girl. Great story.

Blogger Russell April 23, 2015 11:41 AM  

I am the Leader of Rabid Puppies, and so can you.

The SJWs like Scalzi have underestimated their opposition and don't even understand themselves.

And they don't understand this is just the warm up.

Anonymous Alexander April 23, 2015 11:42 AM  

@tc

What's to 'accept'? It's a vote. I'm not going to go to a con and push a guy out of the room because he likes Dinosaur, but I'm not going to look at my own ballot and say 'well, I've got three works I like, so let me head over to Scalzi's page and make sure I nominate one of his favorites as well, because acceptance quota.'

If people want to write and read and vote for message fiction, that's there business. It's no more my business as to whether people listen to Miley Cyrus, read 50 Shades, or take up professional hop-scotch.

What I object to is being told what I can read. And having a small tired clique insist that their insular trophy REPRESENTS EVERYONE. #notyourshield, yeah? Don't claim that you represent my tastes, when you observably do not.


Anonymous Nathan April 23, 2015 11:42 AM  

@dh

Why does Tor need Scalzi when they have Sanderson and Card? Ender's Game makes a ton of money each year, and Sanderson managed to stay on the NYT Bestseller's List for more than a week with Words of Radiance, plus the fantasy market is three times larger than science fiction. Not to also mention that Sanderson writes more than one book a year. My guess is that Scalzi's relationship with Tor gets cut before either OSC or Sanderson.

Anonymous Steve April 23, 2015 11:45 AM  

John Wright - coming from a master of speculative fiction that is a priceless compliment.

Thank you.

Blogger Nikis-Knight April 23, 2015 11:49 AM  

"If all that works, will you also allow room (not all the nominees, just a few) for what you consider message fiction as well? If the Hugos also, every year, included good old-fashioned scifi/fantasy, would you guys also accept room for the message fiction as well? "

What's this "make room for" stuff? The goal isn't to exclude the other side (though that is a potential retaliatory tactic). The goal is to see the best works win, which means to nominate, advocate for, and vote for only the best work of the year. In each persons own opinion, of course. There wouldn't be a place for including "message fiction" that didn't tell a good sci-fi/fantasy story just for inclusions sake, but the SP/RP have demonstrated that they will not hold authorial views against works.

Anonymous Ashterah April 23, 2015 11:51 AM  

RE: Marissa's comment about the cats

OMG that is so cray. It's cray to the eleventy-billionth power. And here I thought I was a crazy cat lady. A cat needs one, maybe two names at the most. Even registered cats names are not that crazy. I should know, I used to own a registered Abyssinian and my sister owns registered Bengals. Take her out and put her out of her misery please, and then let me rescue those little darlings from the cray.

As a side note, she goes on and on about the points on the Siamese but then does not tell readers what the "classic" part of classic tabby means. I think somebody is talking out of her nether regions there. If there isn't a swirl, it isn't a classic. Most cats with a tabby pattern are spotted or mackerel. Classic is recessive, as is ghost. Like I said, I'm a crazy cat lady. lol


Back to the post at hand, however, I think Scalzi stepped on his dangling nether regions with giving Vox so much credit and he realized that his poor abused peter couldn't deal with the SJW wrath that would come down on him for it. So he withdrew. "lack of sleep" had nothing to do with it. He's a craven coward who would throw his own mother to the shrieking mob if it could save his skin.

Blogger bob k. mando April 23, 2015 11:55 AM  

Sherwood family April 23, 2015 8:06 AM
It boggles my mind why people feel the need to join the Thought Police. Are they not busy enough with their own thoughts or projects without having to worry about others?



in point of fact, no.

psychology characterizes this as a 'lack of personal boundaries'. many in the narcissistic and sociopathic pathologies manifest this behavior.

is what it amounts to is a complete lack of respect and empathy for everyone you know.

everyone ELSE is supposed to do everything they can to make the tantrum thrower happy.

everyone ELSE is supposed to think the happy, feelgood thoughts that make the Toad of Tor feel warm and fuzzy because ... how could anyone else think differently?

YOU are required to make David Gerrold feel better about his miserable life by praising a fictionalized semi-autobiography as 'best SF of the year' ... even though the story was of such poor literary merit that it received NO recognition outside the insular SF/F world.

how DARE you not lave Gerrold with praise?

Anonymous Nathan April 23, 2015 11:56 AM  

@tc,

If the work entertains first and educates second, as Harlan Ellison has said many years ago, then, yes, there is room, regardless of message. However, most message fic tends to be message first, purple (usually synthetic) silk prose second, and entertainment last. In that case, no, there is no room, regardless of if I might agree with the message or not.

Anonymous t.c. April 23, 2015 11:56 AM  

Thanks for the replies and the clarification.

FWIW, I enjoy all types of fantasy/sci fi, from "message fiction" or just good old adventure stories. I agree with many of you - taste is subjective. What may come across as blatant message might be unnoticeable to others. I remember getting into an argument with a friend because he did not think there was any underlying message to Tolkien's works or Lewis's. Even though I skew liberal, I have a deep and abiding love for Narnia that has stayed with me for decades, and for Tolkien. I've also come into liberal "message fiction" that annoyed me because the story obviously was only there to service the message, but I think both sides have been guilty of that. Goodkind, for example? God, I loved those first few books - by halfway through the series, it was clear that he was only coming up with paper-thin plots to push an agenda, and I got turned off.

Thanks for the replies everyone!

Anonymous dh April 23, 2015 11:57 AM  

Nathan--

If all authorsl ike that are producing revenue it's not a matter of dropping them, it's just a matter of getting costs under control. I don't thik we need to try to say that JS doesn't sell. He does sell.

It's just, in his mind and his followers, he's a JK Rowling style blockbuster author. If you call him "mid-list" his followers and occasionally the man himself, get testy. The fact that he's gotten a few participating best sellers for a week or two at a time makes him a "best-selling author", whether or not it was gamed, and whether or not it means anything. Hint, it doesn't.

The gap between the midlist and mass market fiction that you buy at the supermarket is huge. That's what Worldcon and the trufans are really afraid of.

The idea that they'll have to compete with Divergent, selling 20 million copies, or Steven King, selling ten times that, and be shown to be as small as they really are.

In reality, they have a lot more in common with Castalia House or Amazon's self published authors than the big boys.

Anonymous Steve April 23, 2015 11:58 AM  

Marissa - Yeah, I just gayed up kippers.

Shame on you!

My Dad's Scottish and very particular about his Caledonian repasts. If he's having kippers, he insists on Arbroath smokies, plain, with no fancy froo-froos. Just salt.

If he's having porridge, it can only be rolled Scots oats, from a box with a picture of a kilted man on it, seasoned with... salt.

As a boy he once caught me trying to sneak sugar into my porridge, and I have yet to live down that breakfast of infamy.

The Scots are a salty people.

Anonymous Cheddarman April 23, 2015 12:00 PM  

My post yesterday, where i stated

"If the dread Ilk ever do a high heel walk, Lavender is my exclusive color, you bitches!"

rattled Scalzi. He realized a member of the Dread Ilk was operating within his cross dressing OODA Loop (observe, orient, decide, act).

Psychological warfare mission accomplished.

Sincerely

cheddarman


Anonymous Viidad April 23, 2015 12:01 PM  

"she goes on and on about the points on the Siamese but then does not tell readers what the "classic" part of classic tabby means. I think somebody is talking out of her nether regions there. If there isn't a swirl, it isn't a classic. Most cats with a tabby pattern are spotted or mackerel. Classic is recessive, as is ghost."

I never, ever, ever thought I'd read a clarification on the fine points of cat breeds at VP.

Ever.

Blogger Cataline Sergius April 23, 2015 12:02 PM  

Maybe I'm wrong, and there really is a large audience out there in TV land, hungry for a cheaper version of Star Trek but with a reverse-liposuction to evacuate all the grandeur and sincerity and replace it with snark.

@ Steve

Youtube beat him to it.

Although I have to say, impressed with the work they put into it.

Blogger Marissa April 23, 2015 12:04 PM  

Steve, I had never heard of savory oatmeal until my Scottish co-worker told me about it. I guess we Americans are a people with a sweet tooth.

Anonymous Blume April 23, 2015 12:04 PM  

t.c.

If the puppies winand more people are brought in that it wont be us allowing anything. It will be the huge masses of fans voting on stuff they like.

Blogger Joshua Dyal April 23, 2015 12:05 PM  

If all that works, will you also allow room (not all the nominees, just a few) for what you consider message fiction as well? If the Hugos also, every year, included good old-fashioned scifi/fantasy, would you guys also accept room for the message fiction as well? As long as the nominees were consistently including both? Or, do you think all "message fiction" should be done away with?

There's no agenda along those lines that would be common to all. Speaking merely for myself, although I flatter myself in thinking that this may be more or less representational: message fic of any kind, even with messages that I agree with, are worse than non-message fic. Fiction that reflects more subtly a worldview to which I am sympathetic, but focuses on quality writing is what I prefer. Quality writing that subtly reflects a worldview that I can't recognize can still be good, but is unlikely to sway me to vote for it. Which is why, for example, Tolkien will always be so much better than Martin.

There are a few exceptions. Narnia is overt message fic, and I enjoy it and think it is worthy of awards. But I don't enjoy it as much as I do Tolkien.

Anonymous Trimegistus April 23, 2015 12:08 PM  

From time to time when I'm feeling masochistic I go read some SJW blogs.

One thing I've noticed is that NOT A SINGLE ONE of those super-geniuses has figured out the origin of the pen name "Vox Day." They all think it means Vox thinks he's God or something. Apparently none of them can look at his first name and get the joke.

Always remember that: these people are not smart. They are not clever. They are not well-educated. They really are stupid, silly, scared little rabbits. Mock them and laugh at them because they can do nothing to you.

Anonymous Stilicho April 23, 2015 12:09 PM  


I never, ever, ever thought I'd read a clarification on the fine points of cat breeds at VP.

Ever.


All cats are not gray after midnight. Endless variety

R.A.H.

Anonymous Alexander April 23, 2015 12:11 PM  

I guess we Americans are a people with a sweet tooth.

Don't you all go buying into the notion that the Scottish aren't: this is the land that gave us the deep-fried mars bar.

Blogger slarrow April 23, 2015 12:18 PM  

To my mind, tc, a work's degree of "message fiction" is neither necessary nor sufficient to qualify it for an award. It is also neither necessary nor sufficient to disqualify it from an award. Likewise for the author's race/gender/orientation/ethnicity/fill in the blank.

The complaint about "message fiction" is that it serves as little more than a tribal signal. "Award the GoodMessage (or Messenger) and expel the BadMessage/Messenger" is repulsive; that's what happened in the Lady Astronaut/Opera Vita Aeterna last year. So bugger that for a lark. Compose your "message" in such a way as to be stating something about humanity instead of signaling your inclusion in the proper club, and I'll evaluate your message and text on the merits. Fair enough?

Anonymous Scintan April 23, 2015 12:22 PM  

Steve, I had never heard of savory oatmeal until my Scottish co-worker told me about it. I guess we Americans are a people with a sweet tooth.

In the U.S., we tend to go sweet with the oatmeal, but we don't do that with grits. Whether it's mostly regional, or based upon the oatmeal/grits difference, I leave for you to ponder.

Blogger Marissa April 23, 2015 12:23 PM  

"Award the GoodMessage (or Messenger) and expel the BadMessage/Messenger" is repulsive

Indeed, I remember reading some of the Newbery winners when I was in elementary and high school because all the schools I attended had the lists posted in the library. I was too young at the time to understand my annoyed boredom at certain aspects of some of these books, but the words I'd use today are "condescendingly preachy". That's not to say all of the winners are like that, but the more modern ones (this is in the 90s) were definitely not worthy.

Blogger bob k. mando April 23, 2015 12:26 PM  

t.c. April 23, 2015 11:26 AM
I've come out and said that the Hugos need to be more inclusive of all types of scifi/fantasy, that too few are voting, and its not reflective of fandom as a while, and no one should be trying to define what "fandom" should be.


uhhh, thanks for jumping on the bandwagon? SP has been saying this for three years.



t.c. April 23, 2015 11:26 AM
If all that works, will you also allow room (not all the nominees, just a few) for what you consider message fiction as well?



IF a large plurality of book buying fans votes a particular skiffy work as being worthy of an award
THEN that work is 'worthy of an award' BY DEFINITION

'message fic' is completely irrelevant to that.

do you think "Moon is a Harsh Mistress" had no message? it had many messages. it's also one of the greatest SF novels ever written.

or perhaps you think MiaHM is to Libertarian to be considered proper 'message fic'?

well then, "Stranger in a Strange Land" is exactly what you're looking for.



Porky April 23, 2015 11:27 AM
while not one of the SJW's ... or meet the payload restrictions.



that's just mean.

and hilarious.

"your Seanan McGuire SO FAT, a Saturn 5 couldn't get her off the couch."

Anonymous Jeromus April 23, 2015 12:26 PM  

why wait? buy in now and you this years whole packet... the right to vote this year... and the right to nominate next year.

I thought the deadline had already passed? Point me in the right direction and I will sign up today.

Blogger Josh April 23, 2015 12:28 PM  

but I think both sides have been guilty of that. Goodkind, for example?

Also Kratman.

Blogger bob k. mando April 23, 2015 12:33 PM  

Steve April 23, 2015 11:58 AM
The Scots are a salty people.



http://www.groovycandies.com/candy/licorice-double-soft-6.asp


Viidad April 23, 2015 12:01 PM
I never, ever, ever thought I'd read a clarification on the fine points of cat breeds at VP.



*shrugs*

the Ilk are inclusive. why shouldn't they have their own crazy cat ladies?

Blogger Alexander April 23, 2015 12:35 PM  

Vox, judging by the steady drip drip of confused souls, a notice somewhere on the front page pointing out that one can still vote for the hugo winners of this year, just not the finalists, would probably do some good.

Blogger bob k. mando April 23, 2015 12:35 PM  

Jeromus April 23, 2015 12:26 PM
I thought the deadline had already passed?


the deadline for nominating the BALLOTS has passed.

now the ballots are established and need to be voted on in order to establish the winner.

google 'worldcon' or 'sasquan'.

Blogger CSAFarmer April 23, 2015 12:37 PM  

MendoScot - Love the Dorsai ref

Thanks, I came into this through Larry Correia's books (got 'em all), enjoyed Mr. van Creveld's A History of Strategy and have just finished Victoria: A Novel of 4th Generation War . I have missed good writing.

Pretty sure I could enjoy a beer and bullsh*t session with any and all of the authors, and the company here. Pretty sure I couldn't keep my gorge down with the other lot i.e. the Tor-ible Two.

Besides, I wanna be on the side with ALL the guns ;-)

Blogger pdwalker April 23, 2015 12:40 PM  

[sjw intellectual mode on]

They say there not Vox, and Vox is saying he not them

Therefore because they are both saying the same thing, they must be the same.

Q.E.D.
[/sjw intellectual mode off]

Blogger LP 999/Eliza April 23, 2015 12:55 PM  

Major OODA probs.

According the law of LP; Lack of sleep is no excuse.

According the law of LP; Withdrawal is no excuse, there is no withdrawal permitted.

I am too sick to freaking standing up. This strain of flu/cold is horrendous. I am still laughing (soul asylum reference) at bloodhound gang of, "why would i wanna be friends I'd be raped by clowns again." Rape is hilarious as long as its not financial rape.

Everytime I laugh its like a new headache of sinus pain. I recall and point to todays recent utterings of now Mr. S. Of course, all of gamergate, Hugo's and some other related matters LIKE BALLOTS are important to continue coverage upon.

Insulting those here who shop, have a dollar to spend on books and ebooks - is pain only to authors who insult, run from open debate and continue to use the racist, sexist, dipsht, etc., mode. Hopefully we have moved past that to refer to the host as Mr. Day.

Continuation of insults is really pissing me off as it is racist and hateful of our native american host. I cannot fathom why they are using a person own ethnic background against an innocent person just trying to write.

No, these people do not understand 'vox day or the vox populi', they dont do Old School Latin which is not Spanish. Think History channels Vikings; Latin by priests. Anyways, the persona non grata, easily offended obsessive compulsive communicators, (OOCC a issue usually seen in women or feminine men, think facebook or iphone addictions) do not understand not only do we not care we are loners who truly do not care. The level of the checked out of henhouses status here is writ large, we do not care.

SJWmcjizzlers cannot get anything right, they have lost the small fight of rational discourse.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza April 23, 2015 12:58 PM  

Aww, between adorable impossible to deny love to puppies to little tiny kitties to love. How wonderful.

Anonymous FP April 23, 2015 1:01 PM  

"Scalzi cries that Brad & Larry are but puppets dancing on Vox's strings then retracts when he notices the strings on himself."

And now I have an image of a Pinocchio Scalzi in a green dress on a big green lawn singing "and there ain't no strings on me!".

Anonymous patrick kelly April 23, 2015 1:05 PM  

"Well at least we've been upgraded from sycophants to useful idiots..."

I'm not all that useful lately.....unless you need someone to smoke all your cigars or drink your whiskey......I'll take my best shot......

Blogger LP 999/Eliza April 23, 2015 1:07 PM  

He wears a, a huge dress and he even speaking?

He wore a size 10 to 16 dress, repeat, Mr. S wore a dress for attention. His poor wife and family are like this; "well, its business dad, we love it, its super funny, its super cool, hey can I paint your nails?"

Blogger Cuca Culpa April 23, 2015 1:08 PM  

Looks like barefoot boy started with the conclusion and then tried -- and failed -- to make the argument.

In acedemia this is called policy-based evidence making.

Anonymous Androsynth April 23, 2015 1:15 PM  

I thought the deadline had already passed? Point me in the right direction and I will sign up today.

https://sasquan.swoc.us/sasquan/reg.php

Blogger LP 999/Eliza April 23, 2015 1:16 PM  

Too bad Mr. S and gang won't upgrade ilk to savants or acolyte or loner.

Blogger Vox April 23, 2015 1:22 PM  

Goodkind, for example? God, I loved those first few books - by halfway through the series, it was clear that he was only coming up with paper-thin plots to push an agenda, and I got turned off.

To put it in perspective, I HATED the first book and did not finish it. I am not a fan of Terry Goodkind, even though I'd definitely vote for him for president over pretty much anyone in SFWA. Except Jerry Pournelle.

Anonymous clk April 23, 2015 1:30 PM  

VD say "They are good and decent men. I am not..."

I do not believe you to be a bad man .. I suspect if people didnt bother you, you wouldnt bother them. Sometimes you say things what appear on the surface to be bad (non pc) things, but theres always is a truth behind it and often is what many are thinking but are perhaps too "civilized" to say....(I used "civilized" because I lack a better term, but I didnt want to say cowardly/afraid etc -- because I dont beleive that those that tend to be less controversial in approach do so because out of fear...)


Anonymous Stilicho April 23, 2015 1:31 PM  

To put it in perspective, I HATED the first book and did not finish it. I am not a fan of Terry Goodkind, even though I'd definitely vote for him for president over pretty much anyone in SFWA. Except Jerry Pournelle.

I'm with you on Goodkind. Even though I agree with the message, it overwhelmed the story, beat it into submission, and dragged it's bleeding body through a polemic desert.

Contrast this with Dune (the first book...I found the sequels to be unreadable) where there is a leftist message, but the story is substantially larger and better than the message fic embedded within.

Blogger Edd Jobs April 23, 2015 1:39 PM  

CSAFarmer: An old YAF song goes, "This land is my land, this land ain't your land, I got a shotgun, and you ain't got one."

Anonymous BigGaySteve April 23, 2015 1:56 PM  

tc asks: " If all that works, will you also allow room (not all the nominees, just a few) for what you consider message fiction as well?

You will be glad to know I am working on a message story entitled "Yes Restored Virginity Slut There is a Fraumarket Clause" It starts with the evil lord of intergalactic hate Voximort throwing a McGuffin through a gay wedding cake bakery's space-diamond window. Its message is the broken window fallacy & that people can chose not to be victims.

why shouldn't they have their own crazy cat ladies?~ Its more likely we have veterinarian's or someone cracking cat DNA

[sjw intellectual mode on]
Dr Mengele liked doughnuts, chocolate & Whores
GRRM ....
Q.E.D.
[/sjw intellectual mode off]
picture captha was select all cake samples.

Blogger John Wright April 23, 2015 1:59 PM  

@ t.c.
I hope I can speak with authority as one of the wrangler trying to herd the cats that are the sad puppies. We each have our own independents goals, but we share a common enemy, which is we do not want politically correct dreck to overwhelm science fiction because the two are incompatible. You cannot tell a good story about the future, or have a sense of wonder, if you believe there is no future, as the Morlocks believe, or if you believe in a sense of self absorption, whining, whinging,bitching, moaning, bellyaching. Hate and wonder are incompatible. Narcissism and wonder are incompatible.

Now, to your questions:

"If all that works, will you also allow room (not all the nominees, just a few) for what you consider message fiction as well?"

The question is based on a false premise. We are trying to be included when we were excluded. We are not trying to exclude anyone or anything -- we want the voters to decide, not the Inner Ring.

So, I, for one, would welcome any story provided it was good. Here is my standard for good (1) GOOD STORY means well crafted, good plot, realistic characters, and (2) GOOD SF means the tale contains the essential science fiction element of speculation, which means world-building, showing me a world other than the world I read in the newspaper, something from beyond the fields we know, futuristic or extraterrestrial and (3) told for the sake of the telling, not as propaganda.

No Sad Puppy has ever said a word against message fiction when the message was subordinate to the joy of telling the tale. But when the tale is subordinate to the message, the joy evaporates. Some of the most heavy handed messages imaginable loom above some of the finest SF in history: NINETEEN EIGHTY FOUR by Orwell, STARSHIP TROOPERS by Heinlein and also STRANGER IN A STRANGE BED, or BRAVE NEW WORLD by Huxley.

But in each case here, the message is subordinate to the story.

"If the Hugos also, every year, included good old-fashioned scifi/fantasy, would you guys also accept room for the message fiction as well?"

The same premise again hides behind the question. This is not an either/or contest. Stories can be good, what you for some reason call 'old fashioned' without necessarily containing messages, and without necessarily lacking messages.

The main objection of the Sad Puppies was that garbage was getting awards for no other reason other than that the recipients were friends with the Inner Circle. If they want to have a friendship award, let them do it with some other award, not the one that went to Frank Herbert for DUNE.

We have no objection whatsoever, none whatsoever, for any fan voting for the best story as he sees fit. If he like heavy handed message fiction, more power to him. If he likes S&M bondage fantasies dressed up as Edgar Rice Burrough ripoffs, let him vote as he will. If he thinks the award should go to slipstream chick-fic about selkies beating dinosaurs with pool cues for using the wrong pronoun, so be it.

But if he votes merely because the story is politically correct, or the author is today's victim of the week on the menu, then to the devil with him.

"As long as the nominees were consistently including both?"

I would welcome a head to head contest. I trust the fans, and I trust the voters.

"Or, do you think all "message fiction" should be done away with?"

Let each man write what he will. It is a free country.

Or will be, once the Politically Correct Morlocks are driven back into the subterranean pits and sewer vaults from which they emerged.

We have always had crazy people. They were not always in charge.

Blogger pdwalker April 23, 2015 2:14 PM  

tc

The question is based on a false premise. We are trying to be included when we were excluded. We are not trying to exclude anyone or anything -- we want the voters to decide, not the Inner Ring.

As John says, the goal is to get more voters voting for what they think best. The more, the merrier. When a lot of people vote, the better works will tend to come to the fore.

Frankly, the more people involved, the less chance that special interests will game the system and vote for such stellar works like, "if only you had a hard on, my love".

The current gatekeepers have turned the Hugo award into a massive joke (and massive circle jerk). Is that not reason enough to take a stand against the in(bred)-crowd?

Anonymous t.c. April 23, 2015 2:42 PM  

Thanks John Wright for the post,

I have been lurking on your site for the last couple of weeks as well, as I have also been checking out your books at the local Barnes and Noble where I work part time. Full time, I am a teacher, shhhhh, don't tell anyone here... :)

I appreciate everyone's comments in reply to me. As I've said before, one of my goals in posting here was to show that not everyone who skews liberal needs to be or even is an angry, insult yelling "SJW", for lack of a better term. There are many of us who skew left, but also don't believe everything we're told about something. I was very ignorant of the Hugos before this whole thing started and rather than just believing everything I read elsewhere, I needed to read the posts of lots of people involved. So, I've tried to be a voice of that other side saying - "Hey look, we're not all screaming for your heads!!!!"

And there have been a lot lies and slander against you guys, those who look at the facts can't deny it. But, I've also seen a lot of comments lumping the other side together as well, and I'm trying to be proof that we're not all on the same page. Based on what I've read, I've seen that a lot of the puppy complaints are valid. I don't agree with a lot of what VD says, but I've also realized that I can't label him as a racist or misogynist. Those are just words because people don't want to look further into what and why he's saying. I don't agree with a lot of what is posted here - particularly the "gamma" as an insult that I see a lot. I am not alpha, never have been, never will be, and I don't consider it a weakness or character flaw. However, despite my disagreements, I've realized that no one has the right to tell anyone here how to think, or that they're thinking wrong, or should be excluded. I've wanted to be an example of the other side that wants you at the table, even if there are fundamental differences. Thanks again!

Blogger CSAFarmer April 23, 2015 2:49 PM  

Edd Jobs: An old YAF song goes, "This land is my land, this land ain't your land, I got a shotgun, and you ain't got one.

hah! that resonates, I once told an individual that was mildly vexing me (joking, we're frends) " I got a shotgun, a shovel and 52 acres; no one will ever find you".

Of course he retaliated by telling me he was a pig farmer, which if you recall a certain disturbing news story from Port Coquitlam, British Columbia, is a REAL threat.

Anonymous Varenius April 23, 2015 3:02 PM  

a chaos-loving madman who seeks only to destroy the One True Fandom.

Vox, do they not realize what an insult this characterization is to your Native Amercan heritage? You are simply embodying the noble archetype of the Trickster!

Blogger Cuca Culpa April 23, 2015 3:11 PM  

dogs brought back a pleasant memory

Heh, yesterday a Great Pyrenees tackled me out of playfulness when visiting my friend's farm. He's supposed to be a working dog, but I think everyone (including myself) played with him as a puppy so he's too friendly now.

Blogger Shimshon April 23, 2015 3:13 PM  

t.c., not too long ago, Vox placed SJWs in their proper context, along with Pink Shirts and rabbits, and how they relate. It was an interesting post. It is possible to lean left, even considerably left, and not be any of those.

Blogger Marissa April 23, 2015 3:25 PM  

STRANGER IN A STRANGE BED

LOL, this is the porno rip-off of the sci-fi classic.

Blogger Vox April 23, 2015 3:34 PM  

As I've said before, one of my goals in posting here was to show that not everyone who skews liberal needs to be or even is an angry, insult yelling "SJW", for lack of a better term.

We know. SJW is a subset of leftist.

Blogger John Wright April 23, 2015 3:54 PM  

"But, I've also seen a lot of comments lumping the other side together as well, and I'm trying to be proof that we're not all on the same page. "

Then, while your intentions were noble, your time was wasted. No one here, none of the Dread Ilk, are groupthinking groupthinkinkers like that. WE think the world is composed of individuals, often fractious and rambunctious individuals-- THEY think the world is composed of homogenous groups, one of black lesbian arab mexican crossdressing angels, and white male hetero devils.

The error you seek to slay is not one I, at least, indulge, or need to be warned against.

AE van Vogt warned me against it when I was nine years old, thank you.

Blogger Corvinus April 23, 2015 4:09 PM  

Rules For Teh Dread Ilk

Anonymous Alexander April 23, 2015 4:13 PM  

tc,

It's more rough and rowdy than here, but you won't understand our vocabulary regarding 'alpha' and 'gamma' if you don't go to Alpha Game, Vox's other site.

By definition, not everyone can be alpha, and I dare say very few who are can do alpha all the time. It is not a case that alpha = good; everyone else = bad. Civilization is a product of alpha + beta + delta. If you are familiar with Richard Sharpe: The Riflemen are delta, Sergeant Harper is beta and Sharpe's Alpha, but nobody is going to mock Harper or the Chosen men.

Gamma is most certainly a negative, but it is false to assume that all that is not alpha, is gamma.

Anonymous MK April 23, 2015 4:16 PM  

Is VD still whining about the guy who is a better writer, sells more and wins more awards the he does?

Whiners are gonna whine. It's what they do.

Blogger pdwalker April 23, 2015 4:18 PM  

Marissa

STRANGER IN A STRANGE BED

LOL, this is the porno rip-off of the sci-fi classic.

It's almost as good as that other one, "Time Enough for Lust".

Anonymous MK April 23, 2015 4:21 PM  

"we do not want politically correct dreck to overwhelm science fiction"

There is a simple solution to this: try writing something yourself that isn't derivative dreck. Until then you'll have to keep gaming the system to find readers for your dreck.

Blogger John Wright April 23, 2015 4:28 PM  

"There is a simple solution to this: try writing something yourself that isn't derivative dreck."

Was that directed at me? No, I am not original enough to write about wereseals and dinosaurs eating gin-soaked bigots: I follow humbly in the footsteps of AE van Vogt, Jack Vance, and William Hope Hodgson, and do not even pretend my work is original.

It is, however, not politically correct. It is stories told for the sake of story telling, not as a sign of loyalty to an insane totalitarian hatred-eaten death cult.

Which of my work have you read, good sir? Any of it?

I assume you only proffer opinions on matters where you know nothing, because, if you were an honest man, you would not be a Morlock.

Please prove my assumption wrong by offering an actual on-topic critique of something you've actually read?

Anonymous Stilicho April 23, 2015 4:31 PM  


Whiners are gonna whine. It's what they do.


Exhibit A, supra.

There is a simple solution to this: try writing something yourself that isn't derivative dreck.

Exhibit B: Old Man's War
Exhibit C: Redshirts
Exhibit D: Fuzzy Nation
Exhibit E: I Gave My Love A Dinosaur Cookie

Until then you'll have to keep gaming the system to find readers for your dreck.

Exhibit F: Annual Award Pimpage, courtesy of Scalzi

Anonymous Alexander April 23, 2015 4:31 PM  

All the Autumn People, where do they all come from?
All the Autumn People, where do they all belong?

Anonymous Jeromus April 23, 2015 4:47 PM  

Thanks. Signed up and looking forward to it.

Anonymous tiredofitall April 23, 2015 4:56 PM  

"He's a craven coward who would throw his own mother to the shrieking mob if it could save his skin." - Ashterah

You forgot if he thinks it'll earn him cash or SJW cred.

Anonymous MK April 23, 2015 4:58 PM  

"It is, however, not politically correct. It is stories told for the sake of story telling, not as a sign of loyalty to an insane totalitarian hatred-eaten death cult."

Whine, Whine, Whine....What are you, the Writing Police? So you don't like some of the Sci Fi out there. it's not as though non-white male characters are taking over the genre. And what the hell does "insane totalitarian hatred-eaten death cult" mean. If you can explain that, then you be able to claim to be more than a dreck writing simpleton.

"if you were an honest man, you would not be a Morlock."

Pro tip....Morlocks are fictional.

Blogger Shimshon April 23, 2015 5:04 PM  

MK, even though it appears that John is conversing with you, he is actually conversing with those who are capable of genuine debate, and may not even be commenting. After all, this blog has tens of thousands of readers and probably only a tiny fraction comment. You are just a poo-flinging monkey capable of speech. Yes, that does sound incredible, but you are not exactly an endangered species. You may as well shut up now.

Anonymous MK April 23, 2015 5:10 PM  

"MK, even though it appears that John is conversing with you, he is actually conversing with those who are capable of genuine debate..."

You mean "genuine debate" like this: "an insane totalitarian hatred-eaten death cult."

Johnny Wright is such a genuine debater....such an upleveler.

"You are just a poo-flinging monkey..."

You mean like this: an insane totalitarian hatred-eaten death cult."?

Be honest...Wright is no better debater or analyst of what's good or bad than that mythical poo flinging monkey you dream of.

Do you think Wright is proud of of all those Hugo Awards he ....wait for it....EARNED. Or do you think he recognizes them for what they really are. Poo-flinging monkey indeed!!

Blogger Russell April 23, 2015 5:14 PM  

MK, may I call you Mary Kay? No?

So, Mary, Mr. Wright has been known to write scifi novels of some renown and acclaim coming from people-- now follow along here, Mary, this is where most Morlocks get lost-- that have actually read his works and-- still with me Mary?-- other of the same kind and have esteemed Mr. Wright to be a superior specimen of the Authoruis Scifictionalis, which is a term I made up.

No doubt you'll skim until offended, or bored, and given your output to date, that probably happened shortly after my first sentence.

But these are the times we find ourselves in, no use complaining about the roster of opponents being too short for the ride as a general rule.

In closing, Mary, I have to echo Shimshon, and point out that you may as shut up now. Before you further beclown yourself. You won't, of course, good advice is hardly read, much less heeded.

Anonymous scoobius dubious April 23, 2015 5:52 PM  

"If it is well-written message fiction with no story and cardboard characters, it should be ignored"

Is so-called "message fiction" even worthy of the name "fiction"? Remember the famous snipe about calling Western Union. Personally I don't give a rat's about "awards"; I care about the judgments of history and honest men.

People still read Melville, becuz he's still fucking mysterious, and almost nobody still reads Dreiser, becuz he isn't. The guy who wrote "Waiting for Godot" was a real writer, and he didn't need anybody to tell him so. The guy who wrote "Waiting for Lefty" was a shill.

btw, this is just a minor quibble and not that big a deal, but in genre terms (and I speak on eggshells, b/c there's a great deal of your favored genre that I honestly don't understand), I'd say that "1984" is not really sci-fi, it is political and linguistic satire dressed in a certain type of costume. "Message fiction" doesn't do it credit, just as it's a little nuts to call Gulliver's Travels or Candide "message fiction," despite the fact that they contain many messages. In a sense I wouldn't even say 1984 is satire, it's a a very astute actual political and linguistic commentary, which is simply for the sake of convenience dressed as a pantomime horse.

But then again ya know, yadda yadda yadda.

Blogger John Wright April 23, 2015 5:56 PM  

"And what the hell does "insane totalitarian hatred-eaten death cult" mean"?

Sorry if English is not your native language:

1. Insane means suffering a psychotic break with reality:

"From a feminist standpoint, however, this is nothing but male supremacist ideology. Far from being 'natural,' phallic sexuality is a moral and political activity. Men's sexual behaviour is not caused by hormonal dictates. It is because the penis serves the ideological function of symbolizing 'human' status that it is so heavily charged with erotic energy, and not because it is driven by testosterone. Men must keep using it because they need to keep proving that they exist, that their 'humanity' is inextricably entwined with penis-possession; women must be constantly used by it to prove that men exist, that the sum total of a man is his penis, what the penis can do it ought to do. Anything and everything must be subordinated to penile activity if men are to be what phallic ideology requires them to be." - Denise Thompson, Radical Feminism Today (2001)"

2. Totalitarian means intruding government coercion into every aspect of life, no matter how trivial:

http://tigerbeatdown.com/2011/08/26/enter-ye-myne-mystic-world-of-gayng-raype-what-the-r-stands-for-in-george-r-r-martin/

"Envision a blazing bonfire in a temple, and breathe in its warmth and serenity. Then, imagine me dumping all your comic books and action figures and first-edition hardback Song of Ice and Fire novels INTO the bonfire, and cackling wildly. Because the fact of the matter is, in my ever-masochistic quest to be hip with what is happening in pop culture these days, I read the first four novels in the series."

Book burning is the sine qua non of totalitarianism

3. Hatred-eaten

"Tweet by Tor.com blogger and ardent gender feminist Liz Bourke:

"Liz Bourke ‏@hawkwing_lb 9h9 hours ago A hilarious comment on my column @tordotcom: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2014/12/sleeps-with-monsters-looking-back-on-2014#497472 …"

Here is the innocuous comment Bourke finds so hilarious:

"It says much about the current state of fandom that a lookback on the best writing of 2014 starts with the number of books by women, authors who identify themselves as women, authors who identify themselves as men and men. I suspect next year we'll see a breakdown of the number of minority authors Liz has read. Whatever happened to the good old days when people were content to read books and didn't care if the author was from Mars or from Venus."

The rest of the charming Twitter conversation of phantom persecution goes like this:

Nebula nominee Kate Elliott: "So tempted to respond: You mean the good old days before racism and sexism were invented?"
Bourke: "And good old boys didn't need to worry about criticism. Well, bless their hearts."
Elliott: "Course they didn't have to worry. They EARNED it."
Blogger Cora Buhlert: "And of course all the books worth reading just happened to be written by straight white cis men."

Buhlert refers to the comment as "comedy gold."

4: Death Cult

A death cult is a religious or semi religious collaboration or collection of zealots who elevate death and dying to a sacred status, as when abortion and euthanasia are elevated to sacrosanct rights.

Whether you agree or disagree, I do not mean you to misunderstand what I meant, or of whom I speak.

Blogger Marissa April 23, 2015 6:00 PM  

People still read Melville, becuz he's still fucking mysterious, and almost nobody still reads Dreiser, becuz he isn't.

I read The Titan back in high school. Maybe I was too young or maybe it was just kinda boring.

Anonymous Steve April 23, 2015 6:00 PM  

The first science fiction story I ever read was "The Wonderful Flight to the Mushroom Planet" by Eleanor Campbell.

It's a great story for young boys. Full of the optimism and adventure and can-do spirit that was the norm in 50's sci fi.

But until recently I hadn't realised that Campbell was trying to warn us that the mushroom people are among us. And they're not fun guys! They hate puppies and want to smother all that is good and fun with their toxic socjus spores.

Anonymous BigGaySteve April 23, 2015 6:22 PM  

MK Pro tip....Morlocks are fictional.

Can you not deduce that Morlocks are the embodiment of something? What do you need something obvious like a character riding a red horse named War? What kind of character do you think someone named Ebenezer Scrooge would be like? You do know that when we talk about crazy cat ladies or catreer women they are not actually women with tails?

Is this picture captcha I keep getting with wedding cakes on it some kind of joke? Is it Vox serves wedding cakes to gays? I cant see the last row so I have to reload until I get letters.

OpenID cailcorishev April 23, 2015 6:34 PM  

then my question is this: If all that works, will you also allow room (not all the nominees, just a few) for what you consider message fiction as well? If the Hugos also, every year, included good old-fashioned scifi/fantasy, would you guys also accept room for the message fiction as well? As long as the nominees were consistently including both? Or, do you think all "message fiction" should be done away with?

You're conflating two different things here, but I think it's an honest question. Here's the thing: there's not a limited amount of "room" in the process as long as the process is followed honestly and openly. Anyone can nominate whatever works he likes, "message" or otherwise, as long as they qualify under the rules of the contest. The Puppies can't exclude any work from that process; they can only promote other works more highly. If a work of message fiction comes along that inspires enough people to vote for it, it will end up with one of the nominations, and the voters will have a chance to vote on it.

To your wider point of whether we would exclude message fiction if we could: you haven't seen a single Puppies supporter say that a particular work should be banned from the process for being message fiction, and you won't. (You may see complaints that certain works aren't sufficiently SF/F to qualify, but that's a separate issue and a valid query about the rules.) A Puppy may say that a particular work sucks, and that judgment may be partly based on its being message fiction, but that's his opinion, which is a normal part of the process. You won't see him saying that other people shouldn't be allowed to like the work and nominate and vote for it.

Don't fall for the idea that this is a tit-for-tat situation, with two more-or-less identical sides using similar tactics to try to take each other down, with the truth somewhere in the middle. It's not. Only one side in this thing is led by people who have bragged about how they plan to do whatever they can to prevent awards going to works they haven't read and refuse to read, based solely on the personal beliefs of the author or publisher or what kind of people he associates with. Only one side has done that. It wasn't us.

So what you're asking here boils down to, "If you guys win, will you promise not to treat them the way they treated you? Will you agree not to live up to the names they've been calling you for years? Pretty please?" Well, let them keep wondering.

Anonymous MK April 23, 2015 6:49 PM  

"So, Mary, Mr. Wright has been known to write scifi novels of some renown and acclaim"

Gamed Hugo Award Nominations count??

Anonymous MK April 23, 2015 6:52 PM  

"Whether you agree or disagree..."

Who in their right mind could possibly agree with that gibberish?

You're a hack who can't quite put up with the idea that there's all sorts of fiction for all sorts of people. You can't quite bring yourself to put up with others writing better than you and being recognized for it. You can't quite get over the fact that everything isn't exactly like you want it.

But hey....You got your nominations....Aren't you such a proud little hack.

Blogger ChicagoRefugee April 23, 2015 6:56 PM  

If that post was retracted for a lack of sleep... who writes for an hour, in their sleep?

*raises hand*

Every time I have insomnia, I get "suspended" from twitter.

*shrug*

Anonymous Truman Chipotle April 23, 2015 7:05 PM  

"But hey....You got your nominations....Aren't you such a proud little hack."

Written without the least sense of irony or self-awareness. Sometimes I just have to pity dudes like Mozart and Shakespeare, cuz in spite of all their artistry and skill, real life just keeps on bringing the better hits. Whaddaya gonna do.

This whole kerfuffle just cracks me up from a distance. People (or alleged people, anyway) arguing about whether or not "The Zargoth Rockets of Planet Zizmei-Nine" is better writing than "Please Pay Attention to My Sensitive Minority Genitals." Can any of youse quote a single line of Lord Byron?

Anonymous Truman Chipotle April 23, 2015 7:09 PM  

Riddle me this, Batman: who's a better writer -- Ernie Bushmiller, or Ernie Bushmiller?

OpenID cailcorishev April 23, 2015 7:34 PM  

So, I've tried to be a voice of that other side saying - "Hey look, we're not all screaming for your heads!!!!"

At the risk of stealing Nate's thunder: We don't care.

I mean, good for you for not wanting to "abolish" people you disagree with. Very decent of you. And maybe it's nice to hear that a liberal exists who doesn't daydream about that fabulous someday when he can put his enemies up against the wall.

But we know that many of the people on your side (especially the ones who call the shots) DO want our heads, figuratively and often literally. So unless you're going to get in our trench and shoot at them when they come for us, your protestations of tolerance really don't mean a whole lot, do they?

Blogger Russell April 23, 2015 7:43 PM  

Yup, skim until offended.

Blogger bob k. mando April 23, 2015 7:52 PM  

MK April 23, 2015 4:58 PM
Whine, Whine, Whine....What are you, the Writing Police? So you don't like some of the Sci Fi out there.



so, WHAT particular work of quality failed to get nominated that has you so worked up?

i mean, shucks, i'd hate to think you were just whining at us for something that never happened.

so, go on, let us know what fiction we need to read this year which should have gotten an award but which we locked out of the nominating process.

OR

shut the fuck up, you whiney little cunt. we don't need none of your womansplaining going on around here.

Blogger bob k. mando April 23, 2015 8:01 PM  

MK April 23, 2015 6:52 PM
Who in their right mind could possibly agree with that gibberish?

You're a hack who can't quite put up with the idea that there's all sorts of fiction for all sorts of people. ...
But hey....You got your nominations....Aren't you such a proud little hack.



so ... you're promising you'll never sleep with the estimable Mr. John C. Wright?


that's too bad. that's so sad.

i'm guessing he'll have to console himself with his wife ... and with the reviewers who spend completely inordinate amounts of time on his hack strap:

http://www.locusmag.com/Reviews/2014/05/paul-di-filippo-reviews-john-c-wright/
"Having said that, I go must go on to affirm that the novel provides much pleasure.
...
But every time, at the last minute, Wright pulls back from mysticism and private symbology to show us startling philosophical vistas of futurity only he could deliver."



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Oecumene#Reception
"Publishers Weekly in their review said "Wright's ornate and conceptually dense prose will not be to everyone's taste but, for those willing to be challenged, this is a rare and mind-blowing treat."[1] Kirkus Reviews had this recommendation in their review saying "this extraordinary feat of invention and plotting would be all the more impressive had the book not ended with the central mystery unresolved, leaving readers dazzled and annoyed in equal measure."[2] Jackie Cassada in her review for Library Journal praised the novel saying it was "bursting with kaleidoscopic imagery, Wright's first novel chronicles the quest of a far-future everyman in his journey of self-discovery. Reminiscent of the panoramic novels of Arthur C. Clarke, Iain Banks, and Jack Vance"[3]"


now, if you don't mind, i'm going to honor John's debut trilogy by listening to the album named for it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwhKQPGA5Mg

Blogger eharmonica April 23, 2015 8:24 PM  

Bob K.:

I think you are over the line with the "c" word. So unnecessary.


v

Blogger bob k. mando April 23, 2015 8:49 PM  

don't care. ;-]

Anonymous Harsh April 23, 2015 9:45 PM  

@MK

We don't care.

Anonymous hoosiertoo April 23, 2015 9:57 PM  

Still the best $40 I ever spent.

Daily lulz.

Blogger John Wright April 23, 2015 10:14 PM  

" Can any of youse quote a single line of Lord Byron? "

Was that directed at me? My short story 'Judgement Eve' was my homage to Lord Byron's play HEAVEN AND EARTH, not one of his more famous works.

I am familiar with the romantic poets, yes. But I am embarrassed to admit I cannot bring a line of his to mind ...., well, except for the opening of his Sennacherib, which is famous, of course.

Tennyson, yes, I can quote more readily, and Shelley, and certainly Keats, and from an earlier era, Milton I can quote at length. Not Byron. I am more of a Kipling man, myself.

Did that answer your question? I can also recite the opening lines of the Iliad in Attic Greek, and I know the croaking chorus of the FROGS of Aristophanes.

Were you trying to pretend you were better educated in the classics than I? Oh. Well, I am sure there are a lot of classics I have not read. Give me a moment ....ah .... hold on ... I'll think of one ... I never finished Augustine's CITY OF GOD, and I also did not get through Justin Martyr's DIALOG WITH TRYPHO.

Blogger John Wright April 23, 2015 10:17 PM  

"Who in their right mind could possibly agree with that gibberish? "

You mean "who in his right mind" if it were a plural, it would be "who in their right minds."

I apologize if what I said, defining my terms, using clear examples, and speaking logically, caused your dinosaur sized brain to rattle hither and yon in the empty and sad vacuity of your skull. I did not mean to dazzle and confuse you.

Perhaps if you asked a question that was on topic, I could answer in more clear fashion. I will use small words.

Blogger Russell April 23, 2015 10:57 PM  

"I will use small words."

Mr. Wright, try typing slowly as well. Too fast the fatuous reader skips over the words, regardless of the size.

Blogger James Dixon April 24, 2015 12:21 AM  

> If the Hugos also, every year, included good old-fashioned scifi/fantasy, would you guys also accept room for the message fiction as well? As long as the nominees were consistently including both? Or, do you think all "message fiction" should be done away with?

What I think isn't important. What matters is that the field is expanding and the voting is representative. If my viewpoint is outvoted, so be it.

Anonymous Alexander April 24, 2015 12:28 AM  

If you had a dinosaur-sized brain, my love...

Anonymous tiredofitall April 24, 2015 1:41 AM  

"I am more of a Kipling man, myself." - John Wright

Wouldn't know myself, I've never been Kippled.

Anonymous Alexander April 24, 2015 1:56 AM  

Kipling is my favorite too. These days, The Wrath of the Awakened Saxon, Norman and Saxon, and Dane-Geld seem particularly relevant.

Anonymous scoobius dubious April 24, 2015 2:08 AM  

@JCW: "Was that directed at me?"

Nah, not really, you're obviously sort of a sui generis dude. But take my advice, my friend: get out of the habit of believing all your own press and all your good reviews, even if they're well deserved. It leads to a lot of weirdness. You're clearly a writer of genius, but so was Richard Farina. Keep yourself healthy, signor. Even if you think I'm being a jackass when I advise that.

One of the problems I have around here is that so many people instinctively turn everything into an internet dick-measuring contest, instead of just hanging around on the corner, having a couple of smokes and a couple of beers with the other kids.

Guys. Srsly. Relaaaax. It's okaaaaaaay. "Boys had better beware, you can see it's a wasted affair....."

If I make a crack about Byron, I'm really not inspecting your adolescent syllabus for egoistic comparisons, I'm doing something else, something kookier. Remember when Robert Plant, the Ultimate Rock God Himself, chuckled and said, "Does anybody here remember Laughter?" Now he's got a completely different career, and it's actually pretty cool.

Since you're a serious writer, maybe you should stop being so thin-skinned, and get out a little more. I hear there are some cool rock fests and zany dance clubs, but they don't let guys like me into them. Like Lester Bangs, I'm not actually cool myself, so I don't get around town too much. But I hear Billy Altman did.

But don't do the crystal meth, I hear it gives you zits and even worse.

Anonymous Shut up rabbit April 24, 2015 6:30 AM  

@MK
Apart from being an exemplum of Nobel prize level projection, you add nothing useful to the debate. Please leave.

tl:dr We don't care

Anonymous MK April 24, 2015 6:36 AM  

The whole lot of you are fascists and wankers. Fuck your racism and homophobia. I salivate for the day your kind is safely locked up along with klansmen and teatards. Change is coming in 2016 -- enjoy your hate speech while it is stll legal.

Anonymous Shut up rabbit April 24, 2015 7:14 AM  

@MK
You were asked politely to leave by several people, now you just look foolish. Don't make me call the Internet police - consequences for you will never be the same!

tl:dr We don't care

Blogger pdwalker April 24, 2015 7:16 AM  

Wow. Straight from the rabbits mouth. I can't think of a clearer example of the evil you represent.

Are you trolling for laughs as an over exaggerated caricature, or do you really believe what you say?

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