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Tuesday, April 07, 2015

Brad Torgersen confronts the beast

It's a little ironic that Brad Torgersen is being accused of racism, which you'll understand if you click on the link:
What disturbs me more is that the field of SF/F is stooping this low. That some of my colleagues — and no, contrary to my impression of the field 20 years ago, not everyone likes or gets along with each other — have decided to make the nerd argument over the Hugos into a decidedly personal grudge match. Where the objective is to not just win the argument, but to destroy the arguer. Professionally. In the marketplace. On the big stage of public opinion. This is the kind of stuff you ordinarily find in cut-throat national political elections, but then it’s been clear for years that cut-throat politics have drifted down into nerd circles of all kinds: comic book circles, movie and television circles, video game circles, etc. There’s simply no escaping it. And there are people for whom winning is more important than ethics, more important than integrity, and more important than the truth.

And the truth is, I’m not the dastardly guy Biedenharn’s piece makes me out to be. And neither is Larry Correia.

Am I concerned with the infestation of political correctness which has invaded SF/F over the last 15 years? You bet. Today’s ride on the media dunking machine was just another iteration in the near-endless attempts by the politically correct to enforce their views, with slander and falsehoods when it comes down to it. Our field is diseased. It has been struck by the same mental virus that has been permeating other sectors of our culture. As one astute and recovered victim put it, the new zealots are a cult who dwell in depression and anger, seeking the slightest excuses to lash out and make other people suffer:
There is something dark and vaguely cultish about this particular brand of politics. I’ve thought a lot about what exactly that is. I’ve pinned down four core features that make it so disturbing: dogmatism, groupthink, a crusader mentality, and anti-intellectualism.
Today, the crusader mentality decided to defame and slander Brad R. Torgersen the evil demonic racist and hateful sick bigoted misognynist. As my friend Larry often quips, if I was half the bastard some of these crusaders say I am, I’d probably hate me too....

But really, when SF/F sinks to this depth, you know we’ve jumped a certain kind of unfortunate shark. Political correctness has gone to a place of destructive take-no-prisoners soul tyranny that could very well and permanently wreck this field; unless good men and women of conscience decide to stand up. I made the decision a long time ago that I wasn’t going to be one of those professionals who diplomatically skulks around the field, obsequiously trying to avoid controversy and not upset the bigger fish. Again, I’ve seen too much of the elephant. My career isn’t so important to me that I am willing to become an ideological chameleon, or cipher. Perhaps this has angered some people to the point they believe it’s time to “end” Torgersen once and for all? If so, I think that’s a very sad statement — about the vindictiveness that has overtaken the genre, among men and women who should probably be working hard to be friends.

Folks, until or unless political correctness is given the boot, this kind of stuff isn’t going to stop.

It won’t be just me getting the torch. It will be you too. You other authors, and you other fans. Political correctness has a bottomless stomach, and is red in tooth and claw. Even if you try to appease the beast, it will eat you eventually anyway.
Needless to say, I'm a little less surprised. I was openly warned about my sinful nature in the eyes of science fiction's thought police more than 10 years ago, and attacked by a few of those self-appointed thought police for my thought crimes. They know perfectly well that I don't care what they call me, so they're going in search of what they think is easier prey, of people more inclined to give in.

Aren't they in for a surprise!

Labels: ,

92 Comments:

Anonymous Daniel April 07, 2015 4:10 PM  

Pretty soon, the only soft targets they are going to find is...themselves.

Blogger Joshua Dyal April 07, 2015 4:10 PM  

Although Brad seems to be unfailingly polite and rather mild-mannered, he also does not at all seem inclined to allow himself to be bullied into giving in.

Anonymous RL April 07, 2015 4:13 PM  

The Care Bear got his flame thrower out.

Anonymous Daniel April 07, 2015 4:14 PM  

If Torgerson were half the bastard the SJWs say he is, their heads would be on pikes and we'd be discussing the highest quality Hugo Slate since '88 if not earlier instead.

Blogger Salt April 07, 2015 4:17 PM  

I've read a number of comments, people calling them out over their slander of Torgersen. Some replies to being called out have been of the "It doesn't matter", "he's still racist" variety.

It's laughable, Entertainment Weekly's halfhearted correction of their now scrubbed hit piece.

Anonymous Fran April 07, 2015 4:19 PM  

Forgive my ignorance but wasn't he one of the rabbits? or was he half rabbit?

Anonymous Susan April 07, 2015 4:21 PM  

If you want an example of how deeply we have been infested with the PC virus, just watch an episode of All in the Family. That series could never be made today. Even the first several seasons of MASH weren't as PC as the last season was.
It is going to take strong arms and backs to excavate us out of the filthy morass that the SJW's have dragged us into.

I have been very happy to see all the support in the comments at places like Breitbart and elsewhere. The usual trolls have decided to skip this battle for the most part. They know they don't stand a chance.

Blogger Joshua Dyal April 07, 2015 4:24 PM  

Forgive my ignorance but wasn't he one of the rabbits? or was he half rabbit?

No.

Anonymous MrGreenMan April 07, 2015 4:24 PM  

Isabella's Twitter has gone down the memory hole.

https://twitter.com/isabella324

Yesterday, she sent the insipid remark, caught by Twitchy, that Larry could always call her and give her extra details.

Today, like that DoL woman who spread her anti-Christian slur last week, Isabella324 is disappeared from Twitter.

Anonymous Scintan April 07, 2015 4:26 PM  

I've read a number of comments, people calling them out over their slander of Torgersen. Some replies to being called out have been of the "It doesn't matter", "he's still racist" variety.

It's laughable, Entertainment Weekly's halfhearted correction of their now scrubbed hit piece.


It's probable that Brad will eventually be given the opportunity to disavow Larry and Vox, and he'll be told that such a disavowal will show that he's "not like them". It'll be part of the isolation portion of the SJWs responsive strategy.

Blogger ScuzzaMan April 07, 2015 4:28 PM  

This Hugos biz is the gift that keeps on giving.

Loving the sheer panicked idiocy of the rabbit warren.

Comedy gold in every post.

Blogger Zaklog the Great April 07, 2015 4:28 PM  

One thing all of this has taught me is that although I still disagree with Mormon theology, I respect the practitioners a heck of a lot. If even half of them have the . . . polite term . . . chutzpah that Correia and Torgerson have displayed, I'm not surprised they're doing so well.

Anonymous dh April 07, 2015 4:36 PM  

One thing all of this has taught me is that although I still disagree with Mormon theology, I respect the practitioners a heck of a lot. If even half of them have the . . . polite term . . . chutzpah that Correia and Torgerson have displayed, I'm not surprised they're doing so well.

This is a real deep truth. I am not so on board with their ideology, but they are almost uniformly the nicest people on Earth. Even in business, where they are very saavy, they are polite, well mannered, well heeled, unfailingly fair, and just oddly clean.

I shudder to think of what a Romney presidency would have been like, but you can be pretty sure we'd not be hearing about secret BJ's and down-low companions every few weeks.

Anonymous nigletopia April 07, 2015 4:43 PM  

"I shudder to think of what a Romney presidency would have been like" << honestly you still prefer Obama?

Anonymous dh April 07, 2015 4:44 PM  

If you look at Ms. Biedenharn's LinkedIn account (https://www.linkedin.com/pub/isabella-biedenharn/10/166/a79), you'll find out she is literally six months out of journalism school. I'd ask for a refund.

Anonymous Porky April 07, 2015 4:44 PM  

Isabella's Twitter has gone down the memory hole.

Whack-A-Rabbit is a game that will go on until Christ returns.

Anonymous Alexander April 07, 2015 4:44 PM  

Well one thing the Mormons always struck me is not really being willing to take hits for their families, and easily caving to ideological pressure from the - real or imaginary - majority. So attacking Brad from that angle was super-smart and I'm sure as soon as they present the escape hatch he'll jump through it and loudly denounce all of us as very naughty boys and girls now that he's seen the light.

Whatever will they come out with next? I don't want to give them too many hints, but any SJW who does come through here - have y'all thought about trying to get Sarkeesian on board? Or better yet, why not get Dina as to coordinate HR, that'll go down well.

Anonymous dh April 07, 2015 4:47 PM  

nigletopia--

"I shudder to think of what a Romney presidency would have been like" << honestly you still prefer Obama?

Way way back we talked about the predictions. On Iran and "distance from Israel" alone, I am still happy with the choice. From a game theory perspective we are in the most optimal position available. Obama is largely handcuffed by Congress, foreign policy wise he is doing things I am happy with for the most part. If we had the 2nd term of John McCain right now or the 1st term of Romney, we'd be boots on the ground fighting in Iran, Ukraine, Russia and Syria, and have re-invaded Iraq and re-re-doubled Afghanistan. No thanks to any of that. Stagnation and gridlock is the best we can hope for at the present.

Blogger S1AL April 07, 2015 4:57 PM  

Mormons do Christian missions better then any actual orthodox Christian denomination. My dad has been ranting about that for years.

Blogger bob k. mando April 07, 2015 4:57 PM  

dh April 07, 2015 4:47 PM
foreign policy wise he is doing things I am happy with for the most part.


not that i was the least bit in favor of Romney-Care ( i voted against him ), but this here is right up there with you joining the RCC because you're "against torture".


personally, i can't wait until NEXT year.

when they call Kate 'the Impaler' ( Kaziglu? ) Paulk a misogynist and gender traitor.

Anonymous Nathan April 07, 2015 5:00 PM  

So the io9 article writer won a Hugo award in 2012 for Best Novelette and another Tor editor besides TNH, PNH, and Feder took a swipe at Brad only for the blog entry to vanish down the memory hole. I haven't looked at all the braying going on, but it does seem like Tor has let slip its attack dogs.

Anonymous dh April 07, 2015 5:06 PM  

Nathan for sure. It just goes to show how weak they are. This is the best they have? They conned some practically teenage journalism flunky into probably getting herself fired and turned part of Gawker (oh noes, Gawker!) into an attack dog.

Reading the Hayden's blog, it's pretty funny actually. Patrick Nielsen Hayden literally has like some type of RSI injury where he can't write much. Teresa Nielsen Hayden has a respitorary sickness and nacrolepsy. Between the two of them they are pushing half a short ton. These people are going to be up for posthumous awards here pretty quickly.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan April 07, 2015 5:11 PM  

He tailgates on the conversation, he allows their definition and rhetorical use of the word "racist" to stand. If you neutralize or nuke that rhetoric then you are in a better position.

Honestly I have seen these nice guy apologies for decades, they don't do much good, sometimes some character witness will remember the accused marched with MLK or something but more often than not they get Zimmermanned.


Just think of the world if the word "racist" gets disqualified. But I give him credit he does understand that they are a cult, therefore impervious to logic.

Anonymous Steve April 07, 2015 5:20 PM  

Nathan - the best part about the io9 article was who wrote it.

Feast your eyes!

Blogger JaimeInTexas April 07, 2015 5:24 PM  

"Stagnation and gridlock is the best we can hope for at the present."

That has been my conclusion for a while, too.

"Feast your eyes"

Puke, puke, cough, cough. Bad boy, bad boy.

Anonymous Northern Observer April 07, 2015 5:25 PM  

" count no less than a dozen different links which all picked up the error-laden Biedenharn piece, and ran with it sight-unseen; because of the blaring headline. Again, the spoon-fed in turn spoon-feed others."

That wasn't re-spooning, it was collusion. Similar to when that mailing list was leaked showing reporters discussing the spin that they were all going to put on their reporting of Gamer Gate. ("no, we weren't colluding, it's purely a coincidence that we all released the same 'story' within minutes of each other")

As much as these people love to cry about McCarthyism, they've been keeping lists of people who violate their badthink rules, and then using those lists to punish the offenders, for decades. Is there a similar list of 'reporters' who blindly follow, or actively support, the SJW causes?

Blogger Mr.MantraMan April 07, 2015 5:25 PM  

Off the topic of rabbit cults, a reader of Kratman's work congratulates him for his nomination. Weaponsman is an interesting blog written by a former SF type

http://weaponsman.com/

Anonymous Anonymous April 07, 2015 5:30 PM  

I read this portion of his piece:

"As one astute and recovered victim put it, the new zealots are a cult who dwell in depression and anger, seeking the slightest excuses to lash out and make other people suffer"

and all I could think about was the cult of the crippled god from Malazan book of the fallen.

-AmicusC

Blogger mmaier2112 April 07, 2015 5:42 PM  

@ Steve:
Why are you posting pictures of Andy Dick?

Blogger Lovekraft April 07, 2015 5:49 PM  

Northern Observer:"Is there a similar list of 'reporters' who blindly follow, or actively support, the SJW causes?"

Long overdue. But don't put it past the marxists to bring out their true knives (imprisonment, censorship etc) once the anti-anti-intellectuals take the field.

Unrelated, sort of, but here's a video by yt RazorBladeKandy in which he delves deep into the root causes of much of the fight we are in. He rises above feminism/MRA bickering to analyze the notion of traditionalism being the true slave driver of men. He has also criticized Islam, so he is aware that this is a very real direction our society could head in if we don't get our shit together soon.

Blogger Lovekraft April 07, 2015 5:49 PM  

oops here's the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kPbfhTas0U

Blogger slarrow April 07, 2015 5:58 PM  

It's stuff like this that made me plunk down my $40 to begin with.

I read much of John O'Neill's commentary at Black Gate, and he kept referring to the idea that SP/RP had awakened a sleeping dragon in those innocent, good-faith Hugo voters who would fight back against the invaders entirely out of a spirit of fair play gone foul. He kept warning Vox about the "backlash" and the need to educate and win over those WorldCon loyalists. What he continued to fail to appreciate is that WE are the backlash!

O'Neill doesn't understand this because he never really saw the problems in the first place. In his mind, he sees a bunch of principled folks just waking up to "tampering" and nobly choosing to preserve the integrity of their votes. But I know better. I saw crap like what Torgerson's talking about last year against Larry and Kratman and VD. I saw a horrific story about a woman who abandons her dying husband win an award and a story that was powerful and moving voted lower than last by people with no taste, no judgment, and no self-awareness. I saw vitriol and spite and self-righteousness accompanied by self-delusion.

I saw, I waited, and I acted. And the response is to double down on the kind of behavior that moved me and others like me in the first place? Genius move, that.

I'm not hateful. I'm not spiteful. I'm just allergic: to stupidity, to viciousness, to smugness, to denial, to the mob. It reminds me of Colonel Sherburn from Huck Finn:

"The idea of you lynching anybody! It's amusing. The idea of you thinking you had pluck enough to lynch a man! Because you're brave enough to tar and feather poor friendless cast-out women that come along here, did that make you think you had grit enough to lay your hands on a man? Why, a man's safe in the hands of ten thousand of your kind—as long as it's daytime and you're not behind him.

"Do I know you? I know you clear through. I was born and raised in the South, and I've lived in the North; so I know the average all around. The average man's a coward. In the North he lets anybody walk over him that wants to, and goes home and prays for a humble spirit to bear it. In the South one man all by himself, has stopped a stage full of men in the daytime, and robbed the lot. Your newspapers call you a brave people so much that you think you are braver than any other people—whereas you're just as brave, and no braver."

Anonymous Steve April 07, 2015 5:58 PM  

Mr.MantraMan - I haven't read "Big Boys Don't Cry" yet, it's on my Kindle waiting for me when I finish "Terms of Enlistment", but Tom Kratman deserves to be nominated among with the best writers currently in science fiction.

His Carrera series is top notch, and the Aldenata books he co-wrote with John Ringo are my favourites in that excellent series.

I think the SJW's haven't attacked him yet because they're afraid of being crucified.

JaimeInTexas - Transylphobe! Charlie Jane Anders is bravely subverting your gender binary! And a dab hand at putting the lotion on its skin, too.

And Anderseses' sometime collaborator and io9 editor, Analee Newitz, is an interesting character too.

Ever look at somebody and just instantly know a) what their politics are; and b) that they would never dream of treating people like you fairly?

Anonymous Steve April 07, 2015 6:01 PM  

mmaier2112 - Why are you posting pictures of Andy Dick?

Xe prefers to be known as Andrea Nodick now.

You hater!

Anonymous Zartan April 07, 2015 6:05 PM  

Daniel Keys Moran used to be a lot more libertarian, now... Well he's weighed in on the Sad Puppies campaign:


In the event you're not clear what Sad Puppies, with its cute name, is really about, let's all spend a moment and be clear together. This is Vox Day:
----SNIP----
I'm not going to spend a ton of time on Sad Puppies; time is passing them by. But it was suggested elsewhere that my calling them "enemies" is intemperate.

My oldest daughter is gay; John C Wright speaks of "exterminating" her. Now, neither Vox Day or Wright are important in the grand scheme of things; time will pass and so will they. I may not live to see them die, but my kids will. And the ideas that they embody will, for the most part, die with them. The racists of the 1950s did not, by and large, learn better: they died. So will the Sad Puppies. They are on the wrong side of history, and no one will remember them when they're gone.


I really enjoyed Emerald Eyes and The Long Run, sad to see him say this.

Anonymous Shibes Meadow April 07, 2015 6:07 PM  

Several years ago, when I made known my opposition to so-called gay marriage,I was subjected to an Eich-style industry witch hunt. In the end, it failed. I am doing better than ever, both in my career and in personal life.

I took their best shot, and I'm still standing here, taller than ever. I'm in good shape for 50; I've lost quite a bit of weight; and I'm still married to the same woman, with whom I live in a house on a private lake surrounded with our children, relations, and friends. My critics, by contrast, have mostly faded into obscurity, and I feel for them. It must suck to be old, fat, queer, and alone.

Moral: Don’t back down from the SJWs. Never back down! Fling their hate back in their faces. Defy them to do their worst. You’ll suffer, but, as a great man once said, “Americans love to fight. All real Americans love the sting of battle.”

Fighting is fun. It hurts, but it's fun. Keep fighting. You’ll win.

As a Catholic Traditionalist and a White man, I represent a certain philosophical and political position. It differs in many important ways from that of Brad Torgersen, and from the positions many of you hold as well. (For example, I oppose interracial marriage, with some few exceptions, for the same reason the Orthodox Jews do.) I am so far to the Right I am off the scale. On certain matters I make Francisco Franco look like an ACORN activist. To my mind, even the most righty-right of Right bloggers are usually too soft. But I recognize no enemies on the Right. We do not all have to agree on everything in order to unite against the common enemy, the global Luciferian revolution (or just “the Revolution” for short).

Lockstep ideological conformity is the hallmark of the Enemy. Diversity, to coin a phrase, is our strength.

Anonymous Scintan April 07, 2015 6:09 PM  

I read much of John O'Neill's commentary at Black Gate, and he kept referring to the idea that SP/RP had awakened a sleeping dragon in those innocent, good-faith Hugo voters who would fight back against the invaders entirely out of a spirit of fair play gone foul.

O'Neill's argument seems to boil down to:

Block voting doesn't happen.

When block voting has happened, it's been ruthlessly put down

When block voting hasn't been ruthlessly put down, it's only been successful behind the scenes

When block voting hasn't just been successful behind the scenes, and has been found out, that's just too bad, because we can't go back to the '50's.

In short, he's stumbling around like a blind guy in a furniture warehouse. He'll be worse than useless, because he's decrying the ruination of a pure Hugo that already doesn't exist.

Anonymous Steve April 07, 2015 6:14 PM  

Zartan - They are on the wrong side of history, and no one will remember them when they're gone.

Oh shit! HISTORY HAS A DIRECTION ARROW, PEOPLE!

Blogger Danby April 07, 2015 6:25 PM  

We have always won the war with Eastasia

Blogger GK Chesterton April 07, 2015 6:28 PM  

Has anyone forced BlackGate to comment on the Torgensen debacle? I haven't followed it closely. Or is he fair game of the fair?

Blogger bob k. mando April 07, 2015 6:32 PM  

Steve April 07, 2015 5:20 PM
Feast your eyes!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgOIEGz7o_s


Lovekraft April 07, 2015 5:49 PM
here's the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kPbfhTas0U


slipshod.

a 'traditional' divorce would default to father custody.

the fact that women are far more involved with care of infants ( due to nursing if nothing else ) does NOT mean that men have no role in child rearing.

post infancy, the presence of the bio-father has been shown to be far more critical to childrearing success than the bio-mother.

Anonymous Bz April 07, 2015 7:03 PM  

"Daniel Keys Moran"

A pity, he's a good writer but he really should know better.

Blogger Noah B April 07, 2015 7:07 PM  

How long before the SJW's start claiming the pic is fake?

Anonymous Bz April 07, 2015 7:08 PM  

As GamerGate seems to have realized, if you find yourself thrown into cut throat politics, it's time you start cutting some throats.

PS. If you need us to select images with certain properties as a captcha, please make sure the images aren't cut off or otherwise hidden. Just wanted to mention that.

Anonymous Anubis April 07, 2015 7:13 PM  

"I shudder to think of what a Romney presidency would have been like"

Yea there might be polygamists suing bakery's for not baking a cake with 51 wives on it.

Anonymous kfg April 07, 2015 7:13 PM  

"a 'traditional' divorce would default to father custody. "

That is a point he challenges the so called "traditionalists" over in his Why the Men's Rights Movement will Fail videos.

In this video I believe he is using the colloquial meaning the "neo"-traditionalists use, a sort of 1950's, Father Knows Best image of the way things never actually were, because that is the audience he is addressing and he has already made his more sophisticated view clear in those previous videos.

Default father custody is the rock I personally stand on with regards to marriage. No default custody, no marriage, no kids. Custody is what marriage is for a man. An heir is the only thing he gets out of the otherwise bad deal and the only real power he has to exert in a marriage.

Traditional marriage died with the Tender Years Doctrine, so you have to back to about 1800 to find it.

My criticism of the RazorBladeKandy is his insistence that the Tender Years Doctrine no longer applies. Technically, in the letter of the law, it has been replaced with Best Interest of the Child.

But the fact of the matter is that the best interest of the child is held by the courts to be the Tender Years Doctrine. The change in in the wording of the law was for the purposes of propaganda, not an actual change in the operation of the law.

Anonymous Steve April 07, 2015 7:16 PM  

Anubis - Polygamy has a far more ancient heritage, and far more global acceptance, than gay "marriage".

So it'll probably be legalised next.

What sane man wants more than one wife at a time, though?

Anonymous nigletopia April 07, 2015 7:19 PM  


My oldest daughter is gay; John C Wright speaks of "exterminating" her.


Do they really believe this horseshit?

Or just yet another attempt to shame us into silence?

Anonymous kfg April 07, 2015 7:22 PM  

"Do they really believe this horseshit?"

With every fiber of their rabbity fight or flight response.

Blogger Joshua Dyal April 07, 2015 7:26 PM  

With every fiber of their rabbity fight or flight response.

Fight or flight? I think you've being generous.

Blogger Desiderius April 07, 2015 7:27 PM  

"A pity, he's a good writer but he really should know better."

As soon as it's established that Sad Puppies is the strong horse and that the coast is clear, he will.

Along with many other writers who just want to be left alone to write.

Support quality writing, ignore the noise, expose the fraud. The invention of the printing press led to similar times.

Blogger Joshua Dyal April 07, 2015 7:30 PM  

I shudder to think of what a Romney presidency would have been like

In at least one way, the Obama presidency may have been just what we needed. It's done an amazing job of waking people up to what the liberals are really up to. Time will tell if it's been in time or not.

That said, can you imagine the Harry Reid presidency? All that tells you is that although there are many facets of cultural Mormonism that drive towards social and political conservatism, it's hardly a doctrine of the church itself.

That said, I wish more members would put two and two together and read between the lines. The church leaders can't openly advocate for political candidates without risking their legal status as a church, but this bit from the recent General Conference Torgerson and Correia both referenced is pretty clear, in my opinion.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/print/2015/04/preserving-agency-protecting-religious-freedom?lang=eng

Blogger Migly April 07, 2015 7:30 PM  

Is there an approved metric for head explosion? I'm new at having to umpire (on my own blog) arguments that look like "I made your head explode!" "No, I made YOUR head explode."

Anonymous brian williams April 07, 2015 7:34 PM  

tonight on the NBC nightly news racism in Utah. women and children hardest hit.

Anonymous kfg April 07, 2015 7:43 PM  

@ Joshua Dyal:

I've already noted that their preference is for flight, but they tend to do a bit of hysterical posturing and puffing themselves up first. If people would recognize the preflight display for what it is, they would never have achieved any power in the first place.

Blogger James Dixon April 07, 2015 7:51 PM  

> It's probable that Brad will eventually be given the opportunity to disavow Larry and Vox, and he'll be told that such a disavowal will show that he's "not like them".

Brad had two years of seeing what they did to Larry and Vox before he ever took on SP3. He knew what he was getting into. He won't fold.

> So attacking Brad from that angle was super-smart and I'm sure as soon as they present the escape hatch he'll jump through it and loudly denounce all of us as very naughty boys and girls now that he's seen the light.

Give us a break, Alexander. You have no idea what you're talking about.

> How long before the SJW's start claiming the pic is fake?

Five minutes after they see it.

Blogger Bobo April 07, 2015 8:34 PM  

"Mormons do Christian missions better then any actual orthodox Christian denomination. My dad has been ranting about that for years."

I have some "Morm" friends who politely put up with my common & constant insult of "You Morms are gonna be the nicest people in hell".

Anonymous Alexander April 07, 2015 8:37 PM  

... not only am I not exactly new to VD, I was bloody quoted in one of the posts earlier today. Just maybe, maaaaaaybe, you need to check your sarcasm filter.

Personally, I would have thought the line about how Mormons easily fold to outside peer pressure would have given the game away, but maybe that's just me.

Anonymous Ain April 07, 2015 8:40 PM  

Nathan: "I haven't looked at all the braying going on, but it does seem like Tor has let slip its attack dogs.

It's probably a direct result of the panicky super secret meeting they had. The timing fits.

Blogger mmaier2112 April 07, 2015 8:40 PM  

Steve April 07, 2015 6:01 PM
mmaier2112 - Why are you posting pictures of Andy Dick?

Xe prefers to be known as Andrea Nodick now.

You hater!


Oh God help me... I have NO clue if you're joking or not and I refuse to Google it.

Blogger James Dixon April 07, 2015 9:17 PM  

> Just maybe, maaaaaaybe, you need to check your sarcasm filter.

Checked. It's functioning as well as it ever has. Since it's been known to be intermittent in the past, I'll take your word for it.

> ....but maybe that's just me.

It could just be, you know. :) Seriously, never assume that sarcasm will be understood. I'm not the only one who has been known to miss it.

Blogger Alexander April 07, 2015 9:22 PM  

Fair enough. No harm done.

Anonymous zen0 April 07, 2015 9:31 PM  

nigletopia April 07, 2015 7:19 PM


My oldest daughter is gay; John C Wright speaks of "exterminating" her.

Do they really believe this horseshit?

Or just yet another attempt to shame us into silence?


SJ/W's always lie.

Blogger rcocean April 07, 2015 9:55 PM  

"Daniel Keys Moran used to be a lot more libertarian"

When was that? He sounds like a freaking Communist. Reactionaries like Vox Day and J. Wright will be assigned to the "Dustbin of History".
Judas Priest!

Blogger rcocean April 07, 2015 9:58 PM  

I see our old pal John Scalzi has weighed in and will burn the Hugo's down rather then let the "sexist/racist/bigot/homophobes" win. The man really is kind of an asshole underneath all the rabbit fur and wedding dresses.

Blogger SirHamster April 07, 2015 10:00 PM  

SJ/W's always lie.

But do they believe it?

If they didn't believe their lies, they'd have the intellectual backend to perceive truth, and their lies are due to a willful desire to cover it up. But if mindfully lying to deceive, one would think they could come up with better lies.

Anonymous zen0 April 07, 2015 10:01 PM  

They came for Brad Torgersen, and I said nothing......

(Actually, Brad seems to be doing fine on his own. )

Anonymous zen0 April 07, 2015 10:08 PM  

@ Sir Hamster

But do they believe it?

My first impression? Whistling through the graveyard.

I have a graveyard near the house. I walk through it often. I call it "visiting my neighbours". And, I don't whistle. Well, I can't, actually.

One can seek reality or denial. SJW's have Gregorian level chants of denial.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus April 07, 2015 10:08 PM  

SirHamster: "But do they believe it?"

Assume they are meat drones programmed by others. Then things add up without contradiction.

Blogger Shibes Meadow April 07, 2015 10:08 PM  

"Shibes Meadow wants to 'exterminate' my gay daughter!"

Naah... concentration camp, maybe. Exterminate? That's kind of dark for me.

Blogger Desiderius April 07, 2015 10:19 PM  

SirHamster,

"If they didn't believe their lies, they'd have the intellectual backend to perceive truth, and their lies are due to a willful desire to cover it up. But if mindfully lying to deceive, one would think they could come up with better lies."

Like Pilate, they don't have a lot of experience with truth. When they run into folks who do, they're somewhat unhanded, see:

http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7929.html

Ultimately, though, it does come down to raw strength - in this case quality of writing and readers who can appreciate it and vote for it. If that strength can be summoned and displayed consistently and in sufficient numbers, then the truth will out. If not, it won't.

Blogger bob k. mando April 07, 2015 10:26 PM  

Migly April 07, 2015 7:30 PM
Is there an approved metric for head explosion? I'm new at having to umpire (on my own blog) arguments that look like "I made your head explode!" "No, I made YOUR head explode."



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW6W9iOjTKM

if you can't find the slimey green globule, it must be presumed that no explosions have taken place.

send both participants back in for another pass. and tell them both that they're pussy bitches for claiming "head a splodey" when no such thing happened.




kfg April 07, 2015 7:13 PM
he has already made his more sophisticated view clear in those previous videos.



don't care.

you do NOT get to, a priori, present Feminist Divorce, declare it the only possible option, spend a half hour critiquing it and then blame "tradcon" Patriarchy ... for Feminist Divorce.

you want to critique tradcon Patriarchy, have at it. don't fucking bait and switch Feminist constructs into the discussion and then accuse Patriarchy of being at fault.

also his justifications of assumed mother custody are just stupid. single fathers ( mother dies in car accident or dindu home invasion or some such ) raise children all the time, even today. grandparents, even on the maternal side, would die to maintain contact with their grandchildren even if their daughter has divorced the father. paternal grandparent and aunt/uncle assistance goes without saying.

he whines about the father having to pay for a sitter; what the hell does he think school is?

it's also hilarious that he plays that clip of Big Red claiming that Feminists 'want' men to get equal custody.

that's what she's saying today.

when she has no children.

and she's not trying to rip out the ex-husband's guts, emotionally. which she IS GOING TO DO in the divorce.

Feminists lie. about everything. it's what they do.

Blogger Brad Andrews April 07, 2015 10:47 PM  

Daniel's site is horrid to follow. Did someone think that was a good layout?

I noted in probably my only post there that it is the attacks of the so-called tolerant ones that have firmed up my own intolerance. I have always held strong views, but I generally left it to others to work out their own lives.

I get tired of so many libertarians telling us that we need to accept things like misnamed "gay marriage" without noting all the requirements it will force upon all of us due to the power of the state they claim to oppose.

Remember when the cry was "keep your nose out of my bedroom"? How about "keep your bedroom out of my nose"?

Blogger Brad Andrews April 07, 2015 10:49 PM  

I finally did a comparison of the nominees against the RP slate. I do see why they are panicking.

I do wish some had not declined. The SJWs will make it personal no matter what. It would have been better to see the true results.

I would like to see a list with (SP) and (RP) after each nominee (along with any other significant similar lists - from anyone) to know which nominees were on which lists.

Blogger SirHamster April 07, 2015 11:02 PM  

@zen0
One can seek reality or denial. SJW's have Gregorian level chants of denial.

So less a belief, and more of noise to drown out the truth.


@ Desiderius,
When they run into folks who do, they're somewhat unhanded, see:
http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7929.html


Link's thesis has interesting way to put it. So SJWs, as the low-level OUTRAGE troops, are more BSers than liars, even though those both generate lies.

Difference between trying to hide the truth from others, versus personally turning away from the truth?

Anonymous zen0 April 07, 2015 11:05 PM  

Migly April 07, 2015 7:30 PM
Is there an approved metric for head explosion? I'm new at having to umpire (on my own blog) arguments that look like "I made your head explode!" "No, I made YOUR head explode."



Make them watch a real head explode.

head shot

Blogger Brad Andrews April 07, 2015 11:16 PM  

I finally did a comparison of the nominees against the RP slate. I do see why they are panicking.

I do wish some had not declined. The SJWs will make it personal no matter what. It would have been better to see the true results.

I would like to see a list with (SP) and (RP) after each nominee (along with any other significant similar lists - from anyone) to know which nominees were on which lists.

Blogger Brad Andrews April 07, 2015 11:16 PM  

Daniel's site is horrid to follow. Did someone think that was a good layout?

I noted in probably my only post there that it is the attacks of the so-called tolerant ones that have firmed up my own intolerance. I have always held strong views, but I generally left it to others to work out their own lives.

I get tired of so many libertarians telling us that we need to accept things like misnamed "gay marriage" without noting all the requirements it will force upon all of us due to the power of the state they claim to oppose.

Remember when the cry was "keep your nose out of my bedroom"? How about "keep your bedroom out of my nose"?

Anonymous kfg April 07, 2015 11:33 PM  

"you do NOT get to, a priori, present Feminist Divorce, declare it the only possible option, spend a half hour critiquing it and then blame "tradcon" Patriarchy ... for Feminist Divorce."

The a priori assumptions are not his. He is taking them from his intended audience and playing by their rules.

His argument is that the sort of divorce that the particular tradcons he is addressing is not patriarchal divorce at all, that it is feminist divorce, and that by investing in that it is men who are being baited and switched.

And he advises that where such divorce is the only option men should not marry.

He knows that feminists always lie. He has spent many, many hours dissecting those lies. His argument is that the model of marriage of the 1950's is one of those lies. In the 1950's default custody to the mother and alimony was the general rule throughout the Anglosphere.

His own view, however, is egalitarian. He wishes women to be stripped of their privileges and to pull their own weight and that they will not do so in marriage. That in marriage they will either become dependants or create a tyranny of the petticoat.

And he believes that either of these is not in the best interests of men.

Anonymous kfg April 07, 2015 11:37 PM  

" . . . more of noise to drown out the truth. "

More of a noise to drown out fear. It just happens that what they fear is the truth.

Anonymous jack April 07, 2015 11:53 PM  

@ Brad Andrews April 07, 2015 11:16 PM

There is such a listing in the Vox post Mailvox: Construction Xanatos. Look near the end and see the two links SP and RP.

OpenID marsascendant April 07, 2015 11:55 PM  

I would very much appreciate your opinion of this idea Mr Day. As both a programmer and publisher perhaps you could make this practical?

https://marsascendant.wordpress.com/2015/04/08/chorfs-to-the-left-of-me-puppies-to-the-right-here-i-am-in-the-middle-with-a-modest-proposal-that-does-not-involve-cannabalism/

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus April 08, 2015 12:11 AM  

Brad Andrews: "Remember when the cry was "keep your nose out of my bedroom"?"

I always knew that was a lie.

Brad Andrews: "How about "keep your bedroom out of my nose"?"

And my flower shop, my cake shop, my pizza parlor and my everything else.

Anonymous TheVillageIdiot(Ret.) April 08, 2015 1:39 AM  

As my pappy pappy's mammy always said;

If you drag your sex life out of the bedroom and into the gutter,
People gonna spit on you


DannyR

Anonymous The artist, also known as Brad April 08, 2015 2:27 AM  

I've had no less than two dozen very earnest pleas: that I "give up" Vox, so that Sad Puppies 3 could be "clean" in the eyes of the social justice cognoscenti. My response remains the same as it was last year: shaming and shunning are the activities of a frightened 13th century village, not 21st century cosmopolitans. Just because I think K. Tempest Bradford is a weeping bag of mental illness, does not mean I want her shamed and shunned or thrown out of the sphere. Hell, I don't even want Scalzi shamed or shunned or thrown out of the sphere. And my disagreement with Scalzi or Bradford is a watermelon, whereas my (occasional) disagreements with Vox, are but a pea. Political correctness is devouring Western civilization. If I am at odds with Vox, it's a tiny thing compared to how I am at odds with men like Arthur Chu, who would declare me a soul-criminal merely for falling under his Twitter crosshairs. When a man can be ruined and his reputation trashed because, "I am Arthur Chu, and I say so," what hope could I possibly have of currying favor with Arthur, after throwing Vox under the bus? Arthur (and all like him) would merely invent a new reason to incriminate and excommunicate me from the human equation. So, as I have said before, I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints. I can have a conversation with Vox. I cannot have a conversation with social justice zealots.

Anonymous Giuseppe April 08, 2015 3:11 AM  

Titius,
Assume they are meat drones programmed by others. Then things add up without contradiction.
That is actually a very useful description. Thanks.

Blogger bob k. mando April 08, 2015 8:48 AM  

kfg April 07, 2015 11:33 PM
He is taking them from his intended audience and playing by their rules.



oh, so he's going to tell me and every other person on the right what *we* think about divorce? and then tell us why we're wrong? even though almost every single justification he gave for the historical inevitability of Feminist Divorce was ineffably stupid? no, that's just arguing the straw man.

anyways, i watched the first 1/2 hour of the video and he never once said this.

i'm not wasting any more time on it. if he's going to, repeatedly, make that claim that he is critiquing tradcon Patriarchy, THEN LET HIM DO SO.

i gave him more than enough time, he failed to deliver. this makes his attack on 'tradcon' a lie.


kfg April 07, 2015 11:33 PM
His own view, however, is egalitarian.


yes, he has received the full panoply of Cultural Marxist primary and secondary ( possibly college ) school indoctrination. how very original. and your point is?



kfg April 07, 2015 11:33 PM
He wishes women to be stripped of their privileges and to pull their own weight and that they will not do so in marriage. That in marriage they will either become dependants or create a tyranny of the petticoat.
And he believes that either of these is not in the best interests of men.


and how many times have you seen me point out that there is nothing in the NT mentioning a Justice of the Peace or certificate in regards to marriage, mmmmm?

IF he wants to argue against state sanctioned marriage
THEN to pretend that there are not also perfectly valid 'tradcon Patriarchy' arguments against it is a bald faced lie.

Anonymous Stilicho April 08, 2015 10:47 AM  

With every fiber of their rabbity fight or flight response.

Fight or flight? I think you've being generous.

Indeed. The correct description is "Squee or flee" or, sometimes "Squee and flee". The latter situation is distinguished by the puddle of urine where the rabbit was previously standing and the former by the rabbit standing in a puddle of urine which has led to both occasionally being (incorrectly and confusingly) referred to as the "Squee and pee" response since the squee is almost always inseparable from the incontinence.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus April 08, 2015 11:30 PM  

Assume they are meat drones programmed by others. Then things add up without contradiction.

Giuseppe: "That is actually a very useful description. Thanks."

Glad to help. :)

People basically say that from time to time. Even one of the authors in the Hugos fight said it. (I haven't been able to find it again, or I'd link to it.) But they do so merely as an insult; they don't stop to discuss: "is this a useful model?" And it actually is.

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Anonymous The Burn Notice July 06, 2016 6:04 PM  

Resist the construct of the gender binary.

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