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Saturday, April 11, 2015

George Martin baits the hook

Anyone who read A Dance with Dragons is aware that George R.R. Martin has lost it. Hell, I wrote A Throne of Bones partly because, after finishing that tedious, pointless slog of a poorly edited doorstopper, my first thought was, "I'm no great writer, but dammit, even I can do better than that shit."

It seems a few people agreed, as ATOB has a higher rating on Amazon than ADWD, 4.2 to 3.9.

Anyhow, it's probably a mercy that instead of further mutilating his literary legacy, he's decided to spend the last few days waxing ignorant with regards to #GamerGate, Sad Puppies, Rabid Puppies, and the Hugo Awards. I was particularly amused by his belated Appeal to Divide and Conquer.
I do believe that there are decent, honest, well-intentioned conservatives in our field, many of whom are deeply involved in the Sad Puppies movement. Brad Torgensen and Larry Correia among them; my disagreements with them so far have been on the issues, but I don't believe that they are racists, sexists, misogynists, bigots, or haters. But I do have a question for you:

When are you going to do something about Vox Day?

Make no mistake. Vox Day and Requires Hate are twins. Mirror images of one another. The Toad of the West, the Toad of East, each of them spewing forth the venom of hatred and violence, poisoning any attempt at honest dialogue. Requires Hate had her acolytes and enablers, and so does Vox Day, and it is from those toads that they derive their power.

Liberals and moderates and "SJWs" can denounce Day all they want, and it only serves to generate more hate, more division, more death threats. His followers will just shrug that off. But if some respected figure from the right were to speak up, well, maybe someone would listen. But do we have a conservative in the house with the courage and integrity of Laura Mixon, someone honest enough and brave enough to denounce the excesses of their "own side?"
First of all, the only Toad in science fiction is The Toad of (formerly) Tor, Teresa Nielsen Hayden. Second, neither the Ilk nor the Dread Ilk are toads. They are intelligent individuals who are entirely capable of thinking for themselves, and unlike the foolish Mr. Martin, they're not stupid and gullible enough to swallow every false narrative put forth by SJWs in the media. Nor do they deserve to be insulted by a fat old fool who can't be bothered to learn any of the salient facts before deciding to pontificate on the subject.

And third, it is amusing that Mr. Martin seems to seriously believe this is the first time any of us have seen this sort of Two-Minute-Hate Bait before. "Why, Mr. Decent, Honest, Well-Intentioned Conservative, if only you will join us in our ritual denouncing of today's Emanuel Goldstein, we will be nice to you and pretend to respect you... for as long as we need you."

Just how dumb does he think everyone on the right side of the political spectrum is anyhow?

Every member of the Evil Legion of Evil has been offered this deal if only they will abjure their Supreme Dark Lord, most of them multiple times. Every single one of them has spurned it, whether they agree with me about anything or not, because they all know exactly how forked the tongue is that speaks such deceitful promises.

Hell, I was offered the same deal myself if only I would disavow Roosh of Return of Kings and Reaxxion. To which my answer was simple and straightforward: "No, absolutely not." This isn't even the first time an SJW has broached the idea publicly:
  •  "There’s only one way to deal with people like Day, who see themselves as above basic human decency, and that is to cut them out of the community like a tumour. Shun them, ignore them, no-platform the hell out of them. Our conventions, our fanzines, our anthologies, our community is not open to people whose racist arguments could have come straight from the mouths of slave-owners." (April 19, 2014)
  •  "How do you bring the weight of community disapproval on someone who isn't part of the community?" (March 30, 2015)
Give a man a platform and he will speak his mind. Deny him a platform and he will build his own... and you will never silence him again. Rabbits always think that the only possible response to being shunned is to a) submit or b) vanish. The problem, of course, is that some of us aren't rabbits.

And that's why the SJWs are desperately appealing to Entertainment Weekly and George RR Martin and The Guardian and anyone and anything else that will swallow their false narrative. They are terrified because they know we are in the process of building a platform and that will mean they no longer have any influence or control over us. Over any of us.

As for Mr. Martin, it's observably two books past time for him to hang it up and hand over A Song of Ice and Fire to Brandon Sanderson or Joe Abercrombie. Although my personal vote would be for R. Scott Bakker, just because it would be hilarious to see a horde of shape-shifting, black-seed spewing rape demons unleashed on Westeros without warning. What's the point of featuring pointless nihilism if you don't embrace it to the full?

Labels: ,

149 Comments:

Anonymous Sevron April 11, 2015 8:39 PM  

To be fair to him, this will work on a lot of conservatives. They're general desire to appear to be reasonable and decent even to the unreasonable and indecent is how we got here in the first place.

Anonymous Donn April 11, 2015 8:43 PM  

But Vox, we are reliably informed that you are extra special evil. And if we only, just this one time publicly renounce you, everything will be alright, sunshine and rainbows.

And this is why Martin cannot write heroes. He utterly does not understand honor, pride, or even simply standing by your own side. He's hollow inside. Villains and victims are all men like him can accurately portray. I believe Martin actively hates heroes and heroism.

Blogger Vox April 11, 2015 8:47 PM  

Good observation, Donn. I quoted that bit about heroes on Twitter.

Blogger rcocean April 11, 2015 8:48 PM  

Martin is just your standard party line leftest who can NEVER attack the left - no matter what they do - without coupling it with an attack on the right. Even if the attack on the right doesn't make any sense - it still has to be made. Otherwise, Martin would open himself up to criticism that he was "helping the enemy". I also found this sentence instructive:

"Only a so-called "Social Justice Warrior" could expose Requires Hate. If a conservative white male had done it, liberals and feminists might have rallied to her defense (sad to say)."

If their any bigger condemnation of the Left then this unintentional admission? To the Left and the SJW's it all winning baby, everything else, including common decency comes in second.

Anonymous Leonidas April 11, 2015 8:49 PM  

They are terrified because they know we are in the process of building a platform and that will mean they no longer have any influence or control over us. Over any of us.

That noise you hear in the background is the tap tap tap of thousands of hammers, plugging away.

Blogger rcocean April 11, 2015 8:51 PM  

And of course, his "deal" is absurd. An extreme leftist attacks other leftists for being "wreckers" and secret "counter-revolutionaries" and someone to balance it out, and show their good guys, the conservatives must attack Vox Day, because... well because.

Anonymous Wyrd April 11, 2015 8:52 PM  

Hell, I wrote A Throne of Bones partly because after finishing that tedious slog of a pointless book, my first thought was, "I'm not great writer, but dammit, even I can do better than that shit."

Shut your mouth. ATOB is awesome. Eagerly awaiting the sequel.

Anonymous Leonidas April 11, 2015 8:52 PM  

Also note that his entire multi-post diatribe in which he resolves to piss off people on both sides of the issue and he "proves" that nobody is being excluded from the Hugos was all just a buildup to... declaring the intention to exclude Vox Day from the Hugos. The whole damn thing is an exercise in turning his skill as a wordsmith to use as a smokescreen so that he can come back and seem reasonable when he demands the very same kind of McCarthyism that he earlier decried.

Frankly, it's pathetic to see someone of his caliber resorting to that.

Anonymous kh123 April 11, 2015 8:53 PM  

"...more death threats."

It'd be collective SJ wood at this point if it ever actually happened, for as much as they talk about it. Given this, am also beginning to think they have a very different interpretation of what swatting is.

Anonymous Jeanne April 11, 2015 8:54 PM  

Sod off, Mr. Martin.

Anonymous Rolf April 11, 2015 8:55 PM  

Just how dumb does he think everyone on the right side of the political spectrum is anyhow?

They are used to dealing with their own mindless minions, so they likely think the right is just as dumb, for to think otherwise is the imperil the foundations of their world-view. Sadly, he's not as wrong as we'd like to think. All sides of the political spectrum have their own left-end-of-the-bell-curve populations.

Blogger bob k. mando April 11, 2015 8:57 PM  

and so my prediction about Martin, that i made on the very first post on his first weighing in, comes true.

i'm shocked, shocked i say, that an openly avowed Socialist would take the side of the social justice whores.

has Mr. Martin yet suggested a neutral metric by we which might judge whether whiners or puppies are suggesting quality works, perchance?

yeah, i didn't think so.

Blogger Cataline Sergius April 11, 2015 9:01 PM  

When Martin first inserted himself, my first reaction was," oh come on they can find a better elder statesman than Martin. Let's see there is...huh...no he's dead. What about...no he's dead too. Ummm...."

So Martin wins elder statesman by default.

I was expecting an editorial rebuttal to Larry's very polite Fisking of him. I think Martin tried to do that a couple of times and then decided it was easier to attack Vox Day instead.

Or possibly he's waiting to see if Larry takes the bait before responding.

I can't blame Martin for basically begging Brad and Larry to disavow Vox.

The right wing moderates have been very well trained by the left and it's always worked before.

Anonymous Lulabelle April 11, 2015 9:01 PM  

"When are you going to do something about Vox Day?"

Like what? Take away his keyboard? Make him stand in the corner? What is to be done exactly? And by whom? President Obama? Vox's mom? If every conservative in the whole universe were to denounce him, do they not understand that Vox just doesn't give a shit?

Good grief........that's stupid.

Blogger Vox April 11, 2015 9:06 PM  

If every conservative in the whole universe were to denounce him, do they not understand that Vox just doesn't give a shit?

No, they can't. Because they care so greatly about what everyone thinks about them, the concept strikes them about as credible as the idea that I don't require oxygen or water.

Anonymous Donn April 11, 2015 9:15 PM  

Lullabelle - Martin has two misconceptions working against him. First is that Larry or Brad ever would 'do something about Vox'. Second, is that anyone denouncing Vox would have any effect on SP or RP or most especially VD.

GRRM probably cannot conceive of a world where a man would not be devastated by being denounced by his friends and companions. Social pressure is too important to a rabbit.

Anonymous Donn April 11, 2015 9:17 PM  

VD damn it I took to long typing this while watching, an old Star Trek episode. And you said it in fewer words. You do deserve the best editor short form!

Anonymous Phil Mann April 11, 2015 9:20 PM  

"When are you going to do something about Vox Day?"

Like what? Take away his keyboard? Make him stand in the corner? What is to be done exactly?



Well, they can always ask the Justice Department to declare him a criminal organization and hit him with felony charges.

Blogger D. Lane April 11, 2015 9:23 PM  

If every conservative in the whole universe were to denounce him, do they not understand that Vox just doesn't give a shit?

People of that kind are insecure by nature. Some of them can put up a convincing front, but deep down inside they need approval. The whole Denounce Day strategy, comical as it is to us, is quite serious for them because they know how they and theirs would react to being burned on the social altar. To them, being seen as a bad person is terrifying. They can't comprehend that people who DGAF are effectively fireproof.

It's also why they are so eager to cede control via platform denial. It is impossible to them for someone to act without the consent of a virtuous authority. They think they are actually achieving something by "officially" silencing undesirables. Ergo, Sad Puppies and Rabid Puppies must be some type of fraud or conspiracy.

Blogger Emmanuel Mateo-Morales April 11, 2015 9:23 PM  

Vox, I've said some terrible things about you in the past and still do whenever you deny that Nuking Japan was the best available option out of a selection of options that were all terrible yet don't get your balls in a salad shooter whenever you mention Allende in Chile.

However, for calling out a fat, overrated moon like 'wiener, wiener,' wiener,' Martin, I'm giving you money.

Keep kicking ass and taking names.

Blogger wrf3 April 11, 2015 9:25 PM  

What should we do about Vox? I think I'll buy him a drink, but withhold the little blue umbrella. That'll show him. I'm sure of it.

We have something the rabbits will never understand. Do I think Vox is wrong on quite a number of things? Absolutely. It isn't like we haven't gone after each other tooth and nail. But there's a bond of blood between us that neither he nor I can break. I'm sure there a Christian rabbits, but where are their voices?

Argue with him? Yep.
Pray for him? Certainly.
5 minute hate? Not on your life.

Anonymous Roundtine April 11, 2015 9:25 PM  

Well, they can always ask the Justice Department to declare him a criminal organization
RICO? Suave.

Anonymous DT April 11, 2015 9:26 PM  

Like what? Take away his keyboard? Make him stand in the corner? What is to be done exactly?

This right here (0:33).

Beware Vox...BE-WARE!

Blogger Vox April 11, 2015 9:28 PM  

It's true. I don't care when they call me names. But I do not forget those who have insulted you. The list isn't long, because most people have more sense, but Mr. Martin just joined Mr. Scalzi on it.

Blogger Beefy Levinson April 11, 2015 9:28 PM  

Denounce Vox or else... or else... uh... I'll make snarky passive-aggressive comments about him on Twitter!

Anonymous Donn April 11, 2015 9:29 PM  

What should we do about Vox?

Hide one of all of his pairs of shoes (make sure that it is all left so he can't mix and match).

Vox's kids, if you read this, this is a great father's day present. Really, dad will love it.

Blogger James Dixon April 11, 2015 9:29 PM  

> When are you going to do something about Vox Day?

Never. Not that it would matter if they did. Didn't you read Brad's recent article on the matter?

> To the Left and the SJW's it all winning baby, everything else, including common decency comes in second.

Harry Reid: “Well, they can call it whatever they want. Romney didn’t win, did he?”

> When Martin first inserted himself, my first reaction was," oh come on they can find a better elder statesman than Martin....

Sure. Niven. Oh wait a minute, he'd be on our side. Pournelle. Oh wait, he just published by Castalia House. OK, I've got nothing.

Blogger James Dixon April 11, 2015 9:35 PM  

> ...the concept strikes them about as credible as the idea that I don't require oxygen or water.

Wait a minute. Do you require oxygen or water? :)

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus April 11, 2015 9:41 PM  

I've seen Martin's picture, and he really IS a neckbeard.

Anonymous Simon Fortescue April 11, 2015 9:41 PM  

Of course, by "decent, honest, well-intentioned conservatives" he means "castrated, formerly right wing beta bitch liberals we keep on a leash and fully control, because if they step out of line we set our attack dogs on him". AKA 95% of modern conservatives.

Anonymous Leonidas April 11, 2015 9:42 PM  

Wait a minute. Do you require oxygen or water? :)

I always thought he lived off of the souls of his enemies.

Blogger James Dixon April 11, 2015 9:44 PM  

> But I do not forget those who have insulted you.

It is appreciated. Which brings up this quote though:

> Requires Hate had her acolytes and enablers, and so does Vox Day, and it is from those toads that they derive their power.

Idiot. Vox doesn't need us. He may appreciate us, but that's not even close to the same thing. With or without the Ilk, he'd be a never ending thorn in your side.

Anonymous Salt April 11, 2015 9:46 PM  

Of late, I have begun to fear that the Time of the Toad has returned. This Toad is Tsathoggua. And this toad is so huge and monstrous and venomous

Wow. That's devestating. But, ah, okay. [Places Cthulhu on the table] This is what you're up agsainst. Call. Now, lets see your hand.

Blogger grendel April 11, 2015 9:47 PM  

If he'd actually read Vox, instead of ingesting talking points, he'd know the answer to 1) Why Brad and Larry won't take the devil's bargain and 2) Why it wouldn't work anyway.

Slightly off topic, GRRM is as ugly on the outside as his writing shows him to be on the inside. He has no right to call anyone else toads. With a side order of: WTF is this George, I know you are but what am I? Toad of Tor is butthurt about being called a toad, so you call us toads? Why would that work?

And I'm just not believing that the Wart of Westeros is going with the worn out death threats canard. I would've thought he had more intelligence than that.

Blogger Rigel Kent April 11, 2015 9:49 PM  

I love this paragraph here:

I am not a gamer, and I have not closely followed GamerGate. Nor do I care to get embroiled in it now. I don't care who slept with whom, or whether some reviews were biased... but I do care that some of the participants, especially women, received death threats and rape threats from anonymous toads on the internet. I have never met Zoe Quinn or Anita Sarkeesian or Brianna Wu, and I don't know that I would agree with them on the issues at the heart of GamerGate, but it does not matter. Threats have no place in civilized discourse, and neither do slurs like "cunt" and "slut" and "whore." Oh, yes, I am aware that some say these women fabricated the threats against them. Bullshit. I believe they did indeed receive such threats... for the simple reason that friends of mine, women I DO know, and love, and respect, have received similar threatening and demeaning emails whenever they have dared to express an opinion online.

In other words GRRM is saying I don't really know anything about the issue, but I'm gonna say the gamergaters are evil. If you don't want to get involved in something, that's fine, but then don't start making public declarations about it.

Anonymous Culture War Draftee April 11, 2015 9:49 PM  

Ostracism via the internet lynch mob is the tactic of choice for 21st century political correctness. The distancing effect of the internet plus the liberating effect of a mob plus the appeal to conformity make for a powerful weapon. I would hazard a guess that the SF community is where it originated, and that William Sanders was patient (lynch mob victim?) zero. Nick Mamatas might have been the first to try it in the wider social media scene in the Cook's Source incident.

So, when I see an appeal to isolate an individual it is an ah-ha moment for me. Honestly, I don't care all that much about the Hugo. I do care about civility and online society. I've said before our lives are increasingly lived alone. I guess you could call it the "Bowling Alone" syndrome. If online life is more real, then online mobbing is more of a threat.

I think that what is awesome to see come out of Sad Puppies/Rabid Puppies is a society that supports the victims of mobbing instead of throwing them to the wolves. It's part of being anti-fragile.

On an individual level I think if Rabid Puppies brings more people to Vox and Steve Sailer it's awesome.I want there to be more noticers. I am enjoying the backlash. And I harbor the dream that more and more people who are accused of sexism or racism or whatever for the crime of living their own life, will respond with, "Yeah, so what."

Anonymous Red Comet April 11, 2015 9:50 PM  

George R.R. Martin has an Uncle Scrooge money bin full of TV cash and a massive boost to his personal fame to go along with it.

What does he care about the niche sci-fi/fantasy book industry?

Anonymous B Lewis April 11, 2015 9:51 PM  

As an author and artist working in the entertainment biz over the past three decades, I have very frequently been invited to various anime and SF conventions as a "celebrity" guest. (Note: I am not famous, nor would I want to be. I prefer to think of myself as a skilled craftsman.) As a result, I have spent a couple of hundred hours of my life with my wife, my children, our partners and business associates,colleagues and industry friends sitting in Green Rooms across the country, peering with buzzed amusement at the doings of the Great and Mighty when they are not in public. Oh, yes, my friends, I've seen it all: fat, smelly writers pontificating about The Meaning Of Life; coked-up middle-aged "artists" in All Black with bad plastic surgery trying to act like they're 23 years old again; pierced and peroxided Japanese rock and rollers looking on in astonishment at the amorous antics of doughy white women who ought to know better; overweight Wiccans with B.O. who insist on giving every celebrity a "therapeutic massage". And also a lot of normal, family-type people, of course, guys and gals who are just trying to turn a buck with their craft.

Watching all this has been good fun, but it's sometimes been sad as well. It's no fun seeing creators that you've looked up to for most of your life as the mediocre, antisocial creeps they really are.

The saddest of all are the SF writers. Most successful, big-name, well-known science fiction authors are actually nothing like the media celebrities you imagine them to be. Most of them just scrape by; writing SF doesn't pay well. The ones that have money usually have rather ordinary day jobs. The rest eke out a living or are on the dole, public or private. Physically, they are usually a mess: many are grossly obese (too many 2-for 99-cents Jack in the Box tacos), smell bad (menthol Kools + infrequent hygiene) and badly dressed (the standard American Giant 8-Year-Old Ensemble of logo tee-shirt, baggy cargo shorts, and Giant White Sneakers). Unkempt hair (facial and otherwise), bad skin (see HYGIENE, above), and yellow, crooked teeth complete the look. The ladies are almost always blowsy, art-school reject chicks with little piggy eyes and dyed hair (Radio Flyer Red) or meth-skinny "sensitive" types with unblinking, bulgy eyes and stringy hair (Pus Yellow). Let's face it: when you spend 20 out of each 24 sitting in front of a keyboard, you don't spend a lot of time tweezing or scrubbing.

Blogger James Dixon April 11, 2015 9:52 PM  

> I always thought he lived off of the souls of his enemies.

Possibly, Leonidas, but that's really more my thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elric_of_Melnibon%C3%A9

My persona of Elric amongst the ELoE is purely a personal thing and not approved by anyone in authority, of course. :)

Blogger rcocean April 11, 2015 9:53 PM  

...each of them [VD and Requires Hate] spewing forth the venom of hatred and violence, poisoning any attempt at honest dialogue."

I'm unaware of Vox "spewing forth any violence" toward anyone. I am aware of of numerous death threats against HIM.

Blogger rcocean April 11, 2015 9:54 PM  

Added: I'm not really sure how you "spew forth violence" but I'm not a wordsmith.

Anonymous DT April 11, 2015 9:54 PM  

But if some respected figure from the right were to speak up, well, maybe someone would listen. But do we have a conservative in the house with the courage and integrity of Laura Mixon, someone honest enough and brave enough to denounce the excesses of their "own side?"

OH NOES! They might find a "conservative" to denounce Vox. And write him a very stern letter telling him he has been denounced!

Whatever shall I do? How will I be able to read an author who has been denounced by an honest and brave conservative? How will I ever visit this blog again???

Hold me Dread Ilk! Tell me it will all be OK!

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 April 11, 2015 9:55 PM  

The list isn't long, because most people have more sense, but Mr. Martin just joined Mr. Scalzi on it.

Honestly, the only real difference between the two is that one has had more success in television.

And the other one criticized Tolkien for bringing Gandalf back.

Sorry, I'm not letting that one go. What a freakin' moron.

OpenID malcolmthecynic April 11, 2015 9:55 PM  

Another point: He just does not get that the entire point is that even IF Vox's views are as horrible and evilly evil as he thinks they are, it doesn't matter. The whole point of sad puppies is to make the views of the author subordinate to the quality of the story. Just what about this do fools* like Martin not understand?

"Fool" in the Biblical sense. He is undoubtedly a better writer than I.

Blogger rcocean April 11, 2015 9:57 PM  

I too am saddened by the unhealthy look of so many SF writers and fans. You can convention going atheists to that list. PZ Meyers once posted pictures of his fan club, and a more unhealthy group of individuals I've never seen.

Anonymous Randy M April 11, 2015 9:57 PM  

Sometimes I am tempted to say "Someone really needs to lock Vox Day away...
so he can work full time on Throne of Bones 2."

Anonymous Leonidas April 11, 2015 9:57 PM  

Slightly more seriously than my last comment, I really do actually think that Martin is just butthurt because Throne of Bones is definitively better than the last two ASOIAF books and possibly better than the first three as well.

Truth hurts.

Anonymous B Lewis April 11, 2015 9:58 PM  

The worst ones are the homos and the drunks. The homos are mostly harmless but intensely annoying: I once did business with a famous SF writer (a name you all would know) who was not only as queer as a three-credit chip but also abrasive ("Do your homework!" he sneered at me after I corrected an error of history he'd made in his latest book), but insufferably arrogant, spending much of our meetings bragging about how famous and important he was. Yet even this famous guy, this fellow whose name any fan of American TV SF would instantly recognize, this celebrity rock star writer who had lorded it over conventions around the world, was a chump: when I went out to his home to drop off some papers, I found he lived not in a kingly mansion but in a rather shabby, one-story stucco duplex in one of the Valley's dingier neighborhoods. (At the time my wife and I lived in modest luxury in a two-story townhouse in Sherman Oaks.) I was shocked and saddened: even Mr. Big Name SF God didn't make enough from all his famous and lauded works to afford to live in a decent place. I idolized the guy when I was a kid, but he ruined it all by being a Space Douche. (He also stole some of my work and used it without my permission, but that's neither here nor there.)

The drunks, however, are the most sorry to see. I once saw a famous SF author -- a guy whose works of military SF are very well known -- sitting all alone at a hotel bar in Dallas, Texas knocking back glass after glass of cheap whiskey. His "handlers" eventually had to come and drag him up to his room -- he was a mean, loud drunk, and the other bar patrons were beginning to become uncomfortable. "Oh, that's just J___," the Con Chair told me with a laugh. Yipes.

Moral: The next time a Big Name Science Fiction Author tries to enlighten you with his or her cosmic perspective on the issues of the day, ignore everything you hear. In my experience, most SF authors are thick, antosocial Ass Pies who you wouldn't like in real life. The guy who drives the local Handi-Tran bus or the lady who supervises the chow line at the rescue mission will give you advice that is as good, or better, and without the hairy armpits, Wicca, and B.O.

Sorry about the length, folks.

Anonymous Jack Hanson April 11, 2015 9:58 PM  

Color me shocked that a man who can't understand the concept of deadlines or self control (is he pushing four bills now?) can't understand a philosophy that revolves around self responsibility.

Anonymous Harsh April 11, 2015 10:01 PM  

Almost makes me want to start getting into fantasy novels so I can stop reading Martin's.

Anonymous DT April 11, 2015 10:02 PM  

Rigel Kent April 11, 2015 9:49 PM In other words GRRM is saying I don't really know anything about the issue, but I'm gonna say the gamergaters are evil.

Because of some anonymous threats no less. He doesn't know who the threats came from, or if they are even real, but he's ready to write everyone off because of it.

Anonymous Harsh April 11, 2015 10:02 PM  

I too am saddened by the unhealthy look of so many SF writers and fans.

That's cuz exercise is racist.

Anonymous El Duderino April 11, 2015 10:02 PM  

"Although my personal vote would be for R. Scott Bakker, just because it would be hilarious to see a horde of shape-shifting, black-seed spewing rape demons unleashed on Westeros without warning. What's the point of featuring pointless nihilism if you don't embrace it to the full?"

I come here for the intellectual stimulation.

I stay here for the AWC.

Well stated, Vox.

Anonymous Ryan April 11, 2015 10:23 PM  

It seems a few people agreed, as ATOB has a higher rating on Amazon than ADWD, 4.2 to 3.9.

Vox, you are a fucking moron. A few people did rate your book higher than a few other people rated ADWD. 4033.21 people "objectively" rated his tedious, pointless slog of a poorly edited doorstopper higher than you tedious, pointless slog of a poorly edited doorstopper.

Blogger JaimeInTexas April 11, 2015 10:27 PM  

"When are you going to do something about Vox Day?"

So, GRRM had to say something to stay in the good side of the pinks.

Blogger JaimeInTexas April 11, 2015 10:29 PM  

Ryan, you read ATOB?

Blogger D. Lane April 11, 2015 10:29 PM  

I'm not really sure how you "spew forth violence" but I'm not a wordsmith.

Vox Day's spittle contains miniature tomahawks. Wreaks havoc on the rabbits during allergy season.

Blogger grendel April 11, 2015 10:30 PM  

Soon they will begin mass downreviewing sadpuppies authors on Amazon...

Anonymous Ryan April 11, 2015 10:30 PM  

Jamie, yes. A slog is being generous.

Anonymous GRRM April 11, 2015 10:32 PM  

So, how are the floppy wieners?

Anonymous AmyJ April 11, 2015 10:34 PM  

"Requires Hate had her acolytes and enablers, and so does Vox Day, and it is from those toads that they derive their power."

This toad has supported Mr. Martin for the last ten years, purchasing his books and passing on recommendations. No longer.

I'd have been willing to wait out the series, even though they are in steady decline both in value and interest (as I did for WoT), but I am not willing to continue to support a fat, old, washed up, lazy blob of a man who thinks of me with such disdain. Blow, George.

Blogger Kull April 11, 2015 10:36 PM  

@rocean I too am saddened by the unhealthy look of so many SF writers and fans. You can convention going atheists to that list. PZ Meyers once posted pictures of his fan club, and a more unhealthy group of individuals I've never seen.

Reminded me of this quote from Yukio Mishima:
“The cynicism that regards hero worship as comical is always shadowed by a sense of physical inferiority”



Anonymous andy April 11, 2015 10:37 PM  

I'm a huge Vox fan, both of his writing and blog. I am also a fan of some of martins work. Martin wrote a really cool vampire book recently that's set on the Mississippi river where he did write a good hero; the riverboat captain. Unlike SJW's I can separate writer from man outside of that role. Martin has proved himself to be an SJW and all that it entails. On the whole, I think Vox's body of work IS better than Martin, but I would disagree about the hero thing and would say that Martin has more inherent talent. Its too bad his loser SJW mind won out and he ruined his Song of Ice and Fire because the first book in that series was absolutely awesome, but then it went downhill from there.



Anonymous Mr. A is Mr. A April 11, 2015 10:38 PM  

So, the dog-whistling continues. First the Neilsen-Haydens scream for Gamergate and get the media to wave a red cape in GG's direction. Now a preeminent SF/F author, with a nationally-recognized television series sagely asks for a "cleansing" from participation of another author whose politics are unwelcome. Who will answer this dog-whistle? The networks? Talk radio? Other national media? Why the next thing you know, Vox and Castalia House will be a discussion topic on the floor of Congress, in Senate chambers, political talk round tables.

The Hugos will be revealed to more people than the cliques ever hoped (or feared). More people will hear this story than most of us ever dreamed possible. All thanks to the hubris of the enemies of free thought and expression.

So worth the price of admission!

Anonymous Daniel April 11, 2015 10:44 PM  

Ah yes, GRRM, who cannot strategize his slow retarded warrior woman to the top of a tournament victory but instead has her win in defiance of physics...please tell me again how you are going to divide and conquer me.

Does he not know that I am both a Daemon Summoner and Voxorcist? If he would like to request my services, I'm pretty certain I could have him cleansed and able to complete his next book by Christmas, and that it would be the best of the bunch.

Until then, I'll just keep building and running the background utilities. And taking his "people" apart at the molecular level.

Anonymous B Lewis April 11, 2015 10:48 PM  

The worst ones are the homos and the drunks. The homos are mostly harmless but intensely annoying: I once did business with a famous SF writer (a name you all would know) who was not only as queer as a three-credit chip but also abrasive ("Do your homework!" he sneered at me after I corrected an error of history he'd made in his latest book), but insufferably arrogant, spending much of our meetings bragging about how famous and important he was. Yet even this famous guy, this fellow whose name any fan of American TV SF would instantly recognize, this celebrity rock star writer who had lorded it over conventions around the world, was a chump: when I went out to his home to drop off some papers, I found he lived not in a kingly mansion but in a rather shabby, one-story stucco duplex in one of the Valley's dingier neighborhoods. (At the time my wife and I lived in modest luxury in a two-story townhouse in Sherman Oaks.) I was shocked and saddened: even Mr. Big Name SF God didn't make enough from all his famous and lauded works to afford to live in a decent place. I idolized the guy when I was a kid, but he ruined it all by being a Space Douche. (He also stole some of my work and used it without my permission, but that's neither here nor there.)

The drunks, however, are the most sorry to see. I once saw a famous SF author -- a guy whose works of military SF are very well known -- sitting all alone at a hotel bar in Dallas, Texas knocking back glass after glass of cheap whiskey. His "handlers" eventually had to come and drag him up to his room -- he was a mean, loud drunk, and the other bar patrons were beginning to become uncomfortable. "Oh, that's just J___," the Con Chair told me with a laugh. Yipes.

Moral: The next time a Big Name Science Fiction Author tries to enlighten you with his or her cosmic perspective on the issues of the day, ignore everything you hear. In my experience, most SF authors are thick, antosocial Ass Pies who you wouldn't like in real life. The guy who drives the local Handi-Tran bus or the lady who supervises the chow line at the rescue mission will give you advice that is as good, or better, and without the hairy armpits, Wicca, and B.O.

Sorry about the length, folks.

Anonymous Rivers of Blood April 11, 2015 10:49 PM  

Give a man a platform and he will speak his mind. Deny him a platform and he will build his own... and you will never silence him again.

Western White folk. This is us. How about it?

the enemies of free thought and expression.

No! They're Liberal! That's the psychological warfare label, after all.

Anonymous Harsh April 11, 2015 10:53 PM  

Vox, you are a fucking moron.

And once again our opposition shows that they have the intellectual capacity of field mice.

Anonymous bw April 11, 2015 10:53 PM  

they can always ask the Justice Department to declare him a criminal organization and hit him with felony charges

Seems he may have been a few decades ahead of them. That extradition for "speech" can be a real bitch.

Blogger Kull April 11, 2015 10:56 PM  

I was done with Martin even before he somehow demanded I do something about someone I never met. The Song of Ice and fire, where to even begin? It started as a standard fantasy retelling of the War of the Roses and then somehow became the Grand Guignol. I couldn't pinpoint where exactly. The setting is incredibly bland. The world isn't well fleshed out. But credit where credit is due, Martin made me want to know what was going to happen next. He is a skilled storyteller. Or was, anyway. Now the hipsters are lapping it up as its outrages are issued almost on tempo, like drips from an intravenous bag. Its like a roller coaster that just goes down. Other generations got Tolkien and Lewis. We get torture porn. Medieval Times, the XXX show, complete with tavern wenches and sexual mutilation, all over a steaming trencher.
Its wild the hipsters got on board. Somewhere once I read about a certain kind of Confucian morality tale. Was it in reference to The Carnal Prayer Mat? Something about a tale that is overtly pornographic but the characters come to a bad end, thus covering itself as a cautionary tale. Anyway that is what it reminds me of at this point.

OpenID drmauser April 11, 2015 10:56 PM  

New Clamps nickname spotted: Sasha Prochenko
https://gnardopolo.wordpress.com/2015/04/10/sad-puppies-vox-day-and-the-sjws-of-worldcon/

Anonymous Stickwick April 11, 2015 11:10 PM  

JaimeInTexas: So, GRRM had to say something to stay in the good side of the pinks.

So it seems. I was somewhat impressed with his previous stand on the self-initiated implosion of the SJWs. Kinda sad.

Anonymous Giuseppe April 11, 2015 11:16 PM  

Vox,
I find it amusing that I published my own take on the whole Hugo thing AND pretty much what is a dissection of your psychology that I am sure is the most in depth ever done AND at the same time essentially say quite explicitly that I consider you a friend at the same time that one of the most famous authors in the world apparently just tried to make you the boogeyman of Earth. It truly makes me happy.

Have a Tomahawk Vox, I wanna see how you throw the thing. I launched mine already, small and tiny though it is compared to yours, I assure you, the intent is as determined.

Anonymous realmatt April 11, 2015 11:16 PM  

GRRM is so gross.

Anonymous please April 11, 2015 11:21 PM  

vox could you give mr. martin a lecture on self discipline, why he lacks it, how to develop it and how it has affected his writing and health . he stuck his nose were it didn't belong on subjects he wasn't fully informed on. kindly return the return the favor.

Blogger Zimri April 11, 2015 11:25 PM  

What does he care about the niche sci-fi/fantasy book industry?

Martin cares about the SF/F industry because he was in it for many years until "Game of Thrones" (the book) took off. I bought the book in the first place because I'd read "Nightflyers" a few years prior and liked it. [In my case with GoT, I did "buy it before it was cool". But I expect that's true of a lot of us here ...]

Martin had paid his dues; he kept his head down, and he wrote books and shortstories and novellae (like "Nightflyers"). That's why he cares.

Now, as to why he's going SJW nowadays; I'll just say what Pamela Gellar once said about another aging longhaired fatty - psychology isn't my field.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 April 11, 2015 11:28 PM  

What is the stage number for bargaining on the path to acceptance?

Because it would appear that this is the stage that Mr. Martin is on. He's progressed rapidly though. He was in denial just a few days ago.

Blogger Danby April 11, 2015 11:41 PM  

We all now soccer is gay, except when Vox plays it. I've found video of Vox playing soccer. He's the shirtless guy on the left, in red and white shorts. This is how it's played in Italy.

Anonymous Mr. A is Mr. A April 11, 2015 11:42 PM  

@swiftfoxmark2
What is the stage number for bargaining on the path to acceptance?


Acceptance is 3. Since Depression is 4, I suspect GRRM will soon begin to blog about eating. Perhaps a feast. The scene opens upon a long feasting hall ... .

Blogger ChicagoRefugee April 11, 2015 11:43 PM  

I'm probably what Mr. Martin would call a ""decent, honest, well-intentioned conservative" and my answer to him is: "Fuck you and the horse you rode in on."

I've been listening to supposedly "decent, honest, well-intentioned" liberals slander and malign me and mine for too damned long now ... I've read too many (partially censored) news reports of the "random" atrocities they've deliberately incited. No more Zemir Begics.

I have a blond-haired, blue-eyed son who asked me a decade ago: "Why do the movie villains always look like me, mama?"

Screw them all with the barbed cock of Satan.

Anonymous Holmwood April 11, 2015 11:58 PM  

Hmmm, looks as though a powerful conservative has indeed denounced Vox. Looks like a natural enemy of Sad Puppies too.

http://memegenerator.net/instance/61188713

Anonymous George of the Jungle April 12, 2015 12:05 AM  

George Clooney, monologue in "The Monuments Men" (with slight modifications):

"..We're fighting for our culture and our way of life. You can wipe out a generation of people, you can burn their homes to the ground and somehow they'll still come back.

But if you destroy their achievements, and their history, then it's like they never existed. (It's) just ash, floating. That's what the SJW's want for the traditional white race, and it's the one thing we simply can't allow."

Anonymous George of the Jungle April 12, 2015 12:07 AM  

George Clooney, monologue in "The Monuments Men" (with slight modifications):

"..We're fighting for our culture and our way of life. You can wipe out a generation of people, you can burn their homes to the ground and somehow they'll still come back.

But if you destroy their achievements, and their history, then it's like they never existed. (It's) just ash, floating. That's what the SJW's want for the traditional white race, and it's the one thing we simply can't allow."

Anonymous Giuseppe April 12, 2015 12:12 AM  

Aaannndd now that I read the whole thing... fuck GRRM. Fuck him.
He's not just an old fool that doesn't know what he is doing.

What he wrote is an intentional attempt at character assassination. His vileness is plain. His cowardly, underhanded, wormtongue sibilations of concern trolling and greasy palm rubbing in the oily muck of his fetid beard are obvious and intentional. The greasiness of his SJWankery exposed like a fetishistic exhibitionist with his foul trench coat open, revelling in the obscene spectacle he offers his audience of death-corruption cultists as an offering to the sewage that passes for their gods: self-humiliation and fetishistic voyeurism of coprophagic orgies.

Anonymous Scintan April 12, 2015 12:14 AM  

Just how dumb does he think everyone on the right side of the political spectrum is anyhow?

To be fair to Mr. Martin, any look at the higher ups of the political right during the last 100 years is far more likely to result in seeing a bunch of cowards and fools than it is to result in seeing a bunch of intelligent and strong-willed men and women. As we've seen repeatedly throughout that time, such has also generally been true of the lower members, albeit not quite as often as with the elites.

Anonymous Scintan April 12, 2015 12:18 AM  

Threats have no place in civilized discourse, and neither do slurs like "cunt" and "slut" and "whore."

Of course, the words he singles out are often perfectly fine words to use in discourse, and his claim that threats have no place in civil discourse runs all the more hollow when you think on how often such threats are made by the left.

The guy who writes that he wants something done about Vox Day is certainly not offering an olive branch.

Blogger Moor April 12, 2015 12:21 AM  

ChicagoRefugee, your last line gave me my best chuckle in a long time. Thank you.

Anonymous Alexander April 12, 2015 12:27 AM  

When Mr. Martin publicizes the fact that gays can have their own boy scouts, their own pizza parlors, and wear a white dress with a big ol' cake; and don't have to bring anyone else into it, I'll concede that perhaps he's arguing in good faith.

Until then, he can fuck himself in whatever fleshfold is most convenient.

Anonymous Stilicho April 12, 2015 12:27 AM  

N.B. Martin's day job for about a decade was as a screenwriter for Beauty and the Beast (the one staring Ron Perlman and Sarah Connor).

As for ASOIAF, the good writing was a buildup to the Red Wedding where he cried havoc and let slip the dogs of self hatred.

Re GG and "death threats"... how many of those threats are attributable to Briana Wu and others like him sockpuppeting for sympathy? How long before Haven Monahan rapes Wu? When will the Toad of (formerly) Tor bravely announce her withdrawal due to such "threats"? So brave.

The grand dame of leftist scifi authors is Harlan Ellison, not Martin, but he's been silent so far. So has Gaiman... unsurprising given the treatment of his friend at Loncon by the Humourless Harpies of Hysteria.

Anonymous Harsh April 12, 2015 12:29 AM  

I hereby de-noun Vox. Let him try to write his next book with naught but verbs, adjectives, and adverbs. (cue diabolical laughter)

Blogger Matt@Occidentalism.org April 12, 2015 1:19 AM  

It's too early to say if Dance of Dragons is a bad book or not. Since it is explicitly part of a series it needs to be viewed as a hole.

That said it is possible the Martin has written himself into a corner. Time will tell.

Blogger Danby April 12, 2015 1:26 AM  

"Although he had plenty of troops, he did not have many men."

—Herodotus

Blogger Under Par April 12, 2015 1:31 AM  

I wonder if the SJWs are unintentionally revealing their true fears here. To campaign a 'senior statesman' to write up an hit piece on someone and to choose Vox seems a bit odd. Brad led the charge for this one. Larry has the largest reading audience. Yet VD is the one they target. I suppose it could be to try and support their make believe narrative of #GamerGate being an evil party crasher but I wonder if there's more to it.

When it comes down to it, is VD the one they truly fear, far more than Larry, Brad or anybody else? Could it be that his consistent, never changing responses to their attacks over the years has caused them to feel truly afraid because nothing in their superficial, dishonest bag of tricks works to bring him into line or marginalize him? In other words, instead of just getting angry, spewing outrage, falling onto their fainting couch and moving on feeling better about themselves, do they instead feel deep seated fear when they look at VD? Is this a lesson for all of us?

Blogger Krul April 12, 2015 1:35 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Krul April 12, 2015 1:36 AM  

Just how dumb does he think everyone on the right side of the political spectrum is anyhow?

Well to be fair, this sort of Trojan horse strategy has worked well for the Left in the past. Not a "Trojan horse", quite. More like a "Trojan olive branch". Or a "baited hook" meant to ensnare weak conservatives and draw them to the Left.

Ayn Rand was aware of this tactic. She once said "The Left has always given the Right advice for good reason. Those who take it, deserve it" (quoted from memory) She also denounced "The political “me-too-ism,” abjectly displayed by the “conservatives” of today toward their brazenly socialistic adversaries" (For the New Intellectual).

They try to frame it as though it's "reasonable" and "respectable" for a conservative to move to the left or pay respect to the left. Yet, *somehow*, liberals who move to the right get no such offerings. Meahwhile the most extreme liberals only get praised for their "courage" and their "revolutionary" ideas while the most extreme right wingers get nothing but scorn.

It's such a brazen strategy, it's hard to believe how well it has worked for them.

Blogger Under Par April 12, 2015 1:41 AM  

Another thought is that given Castalia House's strong showing, maybe they 'woke up' to the fact that the Dread Ilk is a very big deal that they never saw coming because of their general dismissal of anybody who agrees with VD. Does the thought of the VD combined with a potentially huge following of people with similar resolve strike terror into them?

Maybe I'm overthinking this and giving SJWs too much credit for assuming they're stepping back and actually thinking. Still, I can't help but think they're starting to reveal who and what they truly fear.

Blogger Russell April 12, 2015 1:47 AM  

That's right folks, Lucy won't yank the football this time from Charlie Brown if we all join hands and denounce that hatey McHater Vox "Hate" Day.

Anonymous Scintan April 12, 2015 1:52 AM  

I wonder if the SJWs are unintentionally revealing their true fears here. To campaign a 'senior statesman' to write up an hit piece on someone and to choose Vox seems a bit odd.

Vox is the most sensible target. He's the extremist. If they successfully peel him off, they can just tag him as the problem, declare victory and change the rules.
.

Blogger Noah B April 12, 2015 1:54 AM  

"I love free speech as much as the next guy -- but someone has to shut Vox up!"

Anonymous Gx1080 April 12, 2015 2:32 AM  

As usual, this is an attempt to control the frame of the discussion for advantage.

Is an attempt to judge people for things that they didn't do on the first place, with the attempt to put them on the defensive. Vox is his own man and can defend himself, nobody should allow himself to be judged by the things that he does.

Glad to see that Brad doesn't take the bait.

Also, this bit from GRRM's answer amuses me:

"Yet the Rabid Puppy slate actually got more works on the ballot than the Sad Puppy slate. Including two nominations for Vox himself as editor, and a bunch for his publishing company.

Where did all those votes come from, if your Sad Puppies are not also lining up with Vox?"

He knows the answer but refuses to see it. Is either that or, he's waiting for someone to point the obvious, so then he can say "then they are all unpersons like Vox and MUST be expelled from the Hugos". Which brings us to square 1.

Blogger Russell April 12, 2015 2:45 AM  

Just when I thought the entertainment value couldn't increase, it gets cranked up another notch.

I'm investing in fainting couches. All those good little SJWs will follow Martin's lead and start wringing hands and tut-tutting about what to do with a man like Vox Day. Surely some will have the vapors and need a fainting couch. Maybe most.

The only way to 'beat' Vox was to never try to shun him to begin with as a punitive action against his badthink.

Well, that genie is out of the bottle and now they are scurrying in abject terror over Vox's shadow. And this isn't even his final form.

Blogger grendel April 12, 2015 2:56 AM  

Susy SJW says "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never-OW! Fuckdammit knock that off! Rape! Rape! Microagression! Hate speech! Vox Daaaaaaay!"

Hell help them if they were ever in a war more serious than a war of words.

Anonymous Scintan April 12, 2015 2:57 AM  

Brad, you and Larry Correia can make a pretty convincing case for your Sad Puppy slate and agenda. I disagree with you, but I can see why you may have persuaded people to vote your way. But given Vox Day's toxic lunacy, it boggles me to think that he could command that many votes for his Rabid Puppies.

Given the significant overlap of the two slates, this quote of Mr. Martin is telling, both of his actual understanding of the situation, and of his thought process. A more reasoning man in his position would have tracked down such important information before weighing in with as many posts as he has made.

Blogger Shimshon April 12, 2015 3:10 AM  

I vaguely recall that Requires Hate was an SJW posing as a right wing caricature to elicit groupthink condemnation? Am I wrong? Then why oh why is GRRM equating Vox and that? What does such equivalency even mean?

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus April 12, 2015 3:28 AM  

George R. R. Martin: Will no-one rid me of this troublesome publisher?

Here's why that won't work. You need men on the sidelines (or women like Victoria Nuland), with a boatload of money, telling "respectable conservatives" that "this can be yours if you do the right thing, but if you are stiff-necked the money will go to your rivals, and with them having that edge you are likely to lose." Then the "respectable conservatives" will bow to Haim Saban or Sheldon Adelson or whomever it is, and the race to the "left" will begin. And the money will flow endlessly, because it will come from effective monopolies on things that are not supposed to be monopolies, or from the public (like Victoria Nuland's money), or from outright vice, like casinos. With the tremendous edge of endless money wisely spent, and programming from smart, well-networked teachers, and against a "right" that has leaders who are bribed, corrupted and ready to sell out their followers, social justice warriors can win.

But what if there are not enough, or any, masterminds providing the social justice warrior drones with programs, and bribing the opposition leadership with endless money? How do social justice warriors win then?

They don't. Or not reliably.

By themselves, they are not good enough, and they never were.

Even with the tremendous advantage of orchestrated mass media support, the social justice warrior drones are likely to fall short. Only when they put on a show the way their bosses tell them to, and the mass media and academia make this puny show look mighty, and then the "conservative" leaders take their fat book contracts and sell out their troops and throw "conservatives" into confusion, dismay and retreat, do the social justice warriors reliably win.

What George R. R. Martin is doing is essentially war by cargo cult ritual. He's designated the enemy leader with his $2 laser, and now planes are supposed to come and blow the target away. But alas, the ritual that he has seen and thought he understood is not enough to bring the planes filled with munitions.

Now what?

Vox isn't going to forget who shone the laser on him and issued the kill order, even if it was only to empty clouds.

Blogger Noah B April 12, 2015 3:40 AM  

Brad T needs a pep talk. He doesn't understand and accept that we are in an existential battle for our identities, and it looks like the divide and conquer tactic of peeling off the moderate is working on him.

OpenID mycroft23 April 12, 2015 4:15 AM  

I simply MUST be a part of this fight! These people have been my enemies for 51 years now.

How do I join up with the Dread Ilk or with the Evil Legion of Evil?

I just bought Throne of Bones for my Kindle. Plan to read it on the flight to Bolivia.

Blogger ajw308 April 12, 2015 4:25 AM  

Vox is the most sensible target.
If Scalzi can beat him, surely GRRM has nothing to fear. Gotta view this from their perspective.

Vox is like the Legionnaire at the left end of the line. They think he's out there, at the far extreme, and if the can beat him, the whole line will collapse.

What the left has not yet figured out, and being rabbits, may never admit it, is that their opponents have stopped playing nice and conceding because we've realized we're fighting an incompatable destructive ideology.

They might not be able to figure it out, but they might have identified him. He's the enemy. They've also identified GamerGate as the enemy. It's illustrative of rabbit logic how they've condensed their enemies into one entity.

Blogger Krul April 12, 2015 4:31 AM  

How do I join up with the Dread Ilk or with the Evil Legion of Evil?

While you're in Bolivia, kill a jaguar with your teeth.

Then skin it. With your teeth.

Then cure the skin and sew a nice jacket. With your teeth.

Then post a picture of yourself wearing the jacket and nothing else in front of the US capitol building. With your teeth.

Failing that, you could buy a $40 Worldcon membership.

With your teeth.

Anonymous Gx1080 April 12, 2015 4:34 AM  

I would note that Brad's position regarding Vox has been consistent on this whole affair. He's not responsible for the things that Vox says or does, so trying to make him apologize for them won't work.

GRRM is trying to stretch that as Brad denouncing Vox of course, but that simply doesn't hold water.

Anonymous BB April 12, 2015 5:00 AM  

Martin's a Gamma. Seen hour-long interviews with him, was bullied in school, little sense of belonging till he found SF/F. Hence the warren mentality.

Saw pictures of him (70s?) in which he wasn't as morbidly obese. Wouldn't be surprised if his lapse from Catholicism was inversely correlated the shrinking ability to see his penis due to an expanding waistline. Mens grassa in corpore grasso.

What perhaps saved him from full descent into the sulfury tar pits of nihilism was professional success as a writer for television. I noticed during those parts of the interviews his eyes lit up, there was real joy (perhaps even gratitude) of being able to make a living this way. Oh well.

I stopped reading the books before I knew these things about Martin. Even so, had the books continued to grip me beyond the 2nd, I wouldn't have cared. The show I stopped watching when the producers lashed out against "bible thumping Christians" during a press conference.

Blogger Mark Citadel April 12, 2015 5:01 AM  

This is the beauty of calling yourself a Reactionary Vox.

Reactionaries don't care what Conservatives think. And they certainly don't care what Liberals think.

Anonymous Harry P. April 12, 2015 5:20 AM  

Was I only one to know all along how will GRRM turn out? I was unlucky enough to read his 1986' book Tuf Voyaging (kind of SJW/enviromentalist message fiction, still way better than SJW crap of today though) so this didn't surprise me at all.

When ASOIAF became popular, I decided to give it chance, but couldn't make it further than half of second book, bored hell out of me (I heard people being thrilled/shocked/fascinated when he kills some important character, but for me to be thrilled, I need to have some kind of relationship with the character first, which GRRM wasn't able to forge...)

Blogger Kallmunz April 12, 2015 5:40 AM  

Dear Mr. Martin,

Received your offer but must graciously decline, this is not a matter of discussion. However if you publicly call for the termination of the Nielsen-Hayden's and their expulsion from SFWA, and this is followed through, we will bring this discussion back to the table.
Sir, take this bold step, do it for the children.


v/r

The Dreadist of the Ilk.

Blogger bub April 12, 2015 6:58 AM  

They don't understand Men with chests.

Anonymous Bz April 12, 2015 7:11 AM  

" Martin wrote a really cool vampire book recently that's set on the Mississippi river"

Fevre Dream (1982)

Anonymous Bz April 12, 2015 7:17 AM  

Sure George, I'll denounce Vox but only if you ride a pig and upload it to youtube first. Chuckle.

Anonymous Bz April 12, 2015 7:20 AM  

PS. To whom it may concern, those image based captchas are broken, busted, useless. Because the bottom row(s) of images is hidden from view. More testing, please.

Anonymous Steve April 12, 2015 7:20 AM  

Geez. I'm not a George R.R. Martin fan, but I feel embarrassed for him after reading his latest thoughts. It's a bit like reading Jackie Harvey's "The Outside Scoop" in The Onion.

Except Jackie Harvey is fictional. Whereas George R.R. Martin's is real, and may want to check himself for the following symptoms:

Face – the face may have dropped on one side, the person may not be able to smile or their mouth or eye may have dropped.

Arms – the person with suspected stroke may not be able to lift both arms and keep them there because of arm weakness or numbness in one arm.

Speech – their speech may be slurred or garbled, or the person may not be able to talk at all despite appearing to be awake.

Anonymous please April 12, 2015 7:21 AM  

biz how would you tell man from swine and swine from man?

Anonymous Shut up rabbit April 12, 2015 7:29 AM  

So when does the group that has little in common except reading Vox's stuff and commentating on his blog get together to exclude him from the gang?

Meanwhile IRL, SJWs are openly stuffing the Hugo ballot in public in a way that would make even Robert Mugabe blush.


Blogger JDC April 12, 2015 7:41 AM  

What should we do about Vox?

1. Hide his umbrellas
2. Sneak up while he's benching and put on clips
3. Make him president of the SFWA
4. Change scripture to provide women a vote in Yahweh's divine council
5. Force him to watch endless golf clips where guys are shouting, "In the hole!"
6. Give him a free copy of the newest calendar - "SJW grrls of the SFWA."

If they just knew their enemy they would know the soft spots.

Anonymous Steve April 12, 2015 8:21 AM  

JDC - Those are all good suggestions.

Number 6 is just cruel though. I'm not even sure they make calendars in extra-wide format.

Blogger Brian Cates April 12, 2015 8:24 AM  

Quite telling that once side of this debate thinks being singled out for denunciation by the collective would be so EMOTIONALLY DEVASTATING as to serve as an example and a warning to the rest.

Show trials where the designated Emanuel Goldstein of the Week is ritualistically denounced are a feature of the Left but are unknown on the Right.

Individuals who know who are they are, what they believe, and what they stand for aren't keen to join in on ritualistic Lefty mob justice, be it a show trial or the days 2 Minutes Hate.

LONG LIVE VOX DAY.

Blogger JaimeInTexas April 12, 2015 8:33 AM  

"respectable conservatives"

IIRC, Joe Sobran explained that it really is." "conservative respectables."

Blogger JaimeInTexas April 12, 2015 8:40 AM  

Ryan: We have different tastes. I thought that ASOFI was a slog, as you term it, especially after! #3.

Blogger Salt April 12, 2015 9:14 AM  

Mary Robinette Kowal ‏@MaryRobinette

@omgMyCat @Supperdude9 @tadashisaxon Y'all do know that some of the donors are Sad Puppies, right?

Blogger Brian Cates April 12, 2015 9:17 AM  

I'm pretty sure after his initial posts at this blog, GRRM was quickly called before the collective for having made the faux pas of admitting there has always been campaigning going on at the Hugos.

It appears to me his attempt to single out Vox is sop thrown to the rabid mob screaming to him to check his privilege and prove his loyalties.

Having totally cut the legs off their attempts to claim no campaigning went on in the past, GRRM had to do SOMETHING to remain in their good graces.

Blogger Salt April 12, 2015 9:19 AM  


Mary Robinette Kowal @MaryRobinette · 8h 8 hours ago

@JohnCobalt OR... Are you on Reddit? Because there's a thread where people are doing the same thing. http://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/328ltg/im_going_to_buy_a_supporting_membership_to/ …


http://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/328ltg/im_going_to_buy_a_supporting_membership_to/

Anonymous Aeoli Pera April 12, 2015 10:13 AM  

Opinion: Vox gives GRRM too much credit because he (Vox) scores high in personality trait Machiavellianism, and he recognizes and overweights that particular form of brilliance because it is rarely well done.

Personally, I thought A Game of Thrones was a boring low-midlister (but I have zero Machiavellianism myself #psychotic4life), and I didn't need any warnings to avoid the sequels. Haven't seen the show, but I've heard it's better.

@Danby,

That video was fantastic. I don't know what that sport was, but I want to play it.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus April 12, 2015 10:16 AM  

Bz: "PS. To whom it may concern, those image based captchas are broken, busted, useless. Because the bottom row(s) of images is hidden from view. More testing, please."

Thanks. I was wondering if that was just me.

Blogger James Dixon April 12, 2015 10:19 AM  

> When it comes down to it, is VD the one they truly fear, far more than Larry, Brad or anybody else?

Well, they hate him more than anyone else. Whether that translates to fear, I can't say.

> Is this a lesson for all of us?

Sure. Fight as best you can, contribute what you can to the fight, and never give up any territory you can hold.

But no one else is Vox Day. I don't see too many Mexican/Indian triple nine intelligence, division one sprinter, rock star, game designer, authors out there. Do you? Look, on a good day I can probably come close to Vox in intelligence, I'm a half way good computer tech, and I had enough sense to marry a woman who is probably his equal in intelligence. But I'll never match him in any of his other areas, and he can probably spend my life's savings in a single day and never miss it. Expecting me or anyone else here to duplicate what he does would be silly.

> You need men on the sidelines (or women like Victoria Nuland), with a boatload of money, telling "respectable conservatives" that "this can be yours if you do the right thing, but if you are stiff-necked the money will go to your rivals, and with them having that edge you are likely to lose."

Hey, for a measly $5M or so, I'll be happy to denounce Vox. Though I don't think it would work out quite the way they hope.

> 3. Make him president of the SFWA

I like that one. :)

> 6. Give him a free copy of the newest calendar - "SJW grrls of the SFWA."

OMG!. Please, no one should be tortured that much.

> Because there's a thread where people are doing the same thing.

You know, now that finances have cleared up a bit (replacing a furnace and refrigerator unexpectedly can do that to you), I may decide to blow $40 after all. We'll see.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus April 12, 2015 10:19 AM  

Make no mistake. Vox Day and Requires Hate are twins.

"Make no mistake" seems like a bluff tell. It's one of those intensifiers people use when they're about to say something they can't back up.

Blogger James Dixon April 12, 2015 10:38 AM  

Oh, and for those for whom it's never too early to plan ahead: http://midamericon2.org/

And here's our theme song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8tZO97uhyE
For those who prefer Fats Domino: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mypHZmXdU3o
And Muddy Waters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD2PTU3Oi84
And Vox's least favorite cover of the song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOYq9JiBW3s

Anonymous Mr. A is Mr. A April 12, 2015 10:56 AM  

Salt
Mary Robinette Kowal @MaryRobinette · 8h 8 hours ago

@JohnCobalt OR... Are you on Reddit? Because there's a thread where people are doing the same thing. http://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/328ltg/im_going_to_buy_a_supporting_membership_to/ …

http://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/328ltg/im_going_to_buy_a_supporting_membership_to/ "


Donated Worldcon memberships? Hmm. Certainly no way to misinterpret this as voter collusion, vote buying, or bribery by anyone involved in this fracas, and certainly no chance for it to spiral wildly out of control in ways the initiator had not planned.

I salute Ms Kowal on her Wiley Coyote-level of Super-Genius.

Blogger Danby April 12, 2015 11:34 AM  

Aeoli Pera
It's called Calcio Fiorentino, or Florentine Football. It's basically the way soccer was played during the Rennaissance. It differs from modern football in that
1) fighting is allowed, but no weapons, no head kicks, and no ganging up
2)The bounds are physical, so no out-of-bounds calls. If the ball leaves the field (yes there is a ball in that riot, somewhere) the linesman throws it back in.
3) 27 men per side, no time outs, even for injuries, and no substitutions
4) the goal is a net that runs the width of the entire end, from about 4.5' to about 6.5' from the ground
5) the ref is called the "Master of the Field". gotta love that.
6)Touching the ball with the hands is allowed, but carrying it is not.

Blogger Danby April 12, 2015 11:41 AM  

If you want some Muddy Waters, that's the wrong song for this fight. You must have meant this one, obviously.

Lyrics:
I'm ready, ready as anybody can be
I'm ready, ready as anybody can be
Now I'm ready for you, I hope you're ready for me

I got an axe handle pistol on a graveyard frame
That shoot tombstone bullets, wearin' balls and chain
I'm drinkin' TNT, I'm smokin' dynamite
I hope some schoolboy tries to pick a fight
'Cause I'm ready, ready as anybody can be
I'm ready for you, I hope you're ready for me

All you pretty little chicks with your pretty little hair
I know you feels like I ain't nowhere
But stop what your doin' baby come overhere
I'll prove to you baby, that I ain't no square
Because I'm ready, ready as anybody can be
Now I'm ready for you, I hope you're ready for me

I been drinkin' gin like never befo'
I feel so good, I want you to know
One more drink, I wish you would
I takes a whole lotta lovin' to make me feel good
'Cause I'm ready, ready as anybody can be
Now I'm ready for you, I hope you're ready for me

Anonymous Isabel Paterson April 12, 2015 11:44 AM  

Are there any limits to free speech?

When we say free speech, we mean free speech, even if you don't know what we mean.

Blogger James Dixon April 12, 2015 11:53 AM  

> You must have meant this one, obviously.

For the overall fight, sure, but that has nothing to do with Kansas City,

Blogger valiance. April 12, 2015 12:14 PM  

re: GRRM just because he portrays nihilism does not mean he espouses it. Just because he portrays villains winning--sometimes-- and performs some deconstruction of traditional fantasy, doesn't mean the villains will win in the end and the heroes will lose. Or that he does not know which side is right, and which is wrong. For all the much vaunted "moral complexity" of the series, in actuality the sides are pretty clear. Stark is good, Lannister evil (with Tyrion the exception that proves the rule). Oberyn is good, Gregor Clegane is evil. Jon Snow is good, The Others are evil.

Right now the books are in The Empire Strikes Back phase of the story, where it looks like evil might triumph. Don't bet on it. Now because we've been stuck here since 2000, this phase has taken on such importance in people's minds they've mistaken it for the shape of the whole tale. Evil's temporary victory is seen as a permanent one, and an endorsement by the author of amorality besides. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Martin knows which side Good is, and though there will be a cost in blood and sweat and tears, Good will win. Count on it.

Anonymous Sevron April 12, 2015 12:42 PM  

But seriously, how is that lady NOT buying votes? I don't understand how this isn't directly analogous to political donation bundling.

Anonymous Mr. A is Mr. A April 12, 2015 1:00 PM  

@Sevron
But seriously, how is that lady NOT buying votes? I don't understand how this isn't directly analogous to political donation bundling.


Ms Kowal may be completely honest in her actions and intent, but she's opened an extremely dangerous door with her purchase of memberships for "random fans". Others may not be or act as a "Social Justice Paladin" as she just claimed over at Brad Torgersen's blog.

This has the potential to escalate out of her control and well past her stated intent. The dog-whistling will continue, and others who are not Hugo "fen" may see this as a way to run the vote (either for SP/RP or for the SJWs of Worldcon) to put a beat-down on enemies.

This skirmish could become a full-blown war this year with well more than the possible 10K participants.

Well worth the price of admission.

Blogger cavalier973 April 12, 2015 1:18 PM  

He's claiming that Vox is a Xenomorph, I guess.

Anonymous Mr. A is Mr. A April 12, 2015 1:22 PM  

The other delicious thing about the perception of vote buying is that these actions could be perceived to be parallel to those methods used by the Scientologists to promote L. Ron Hubbard's bid for a Hugo. Worldcon took a strong stand against the Scientologists's actions, and even culled questionable memberships.

What *will* Worldcon do here?

Anonymous BigGaySteve April 12, 2015 1:46 PM  

Dear Mr. Martin I realize that due to your waistline you have not seen your balls without the aid of a mirror, but since you are so bothered by words on the internet directed towards women, let me invite you to denounce 3rd world savage moslems for gang raping 1700+ indigenous white British underage girls in Rotherham UK along with UK social workers, & UK police that ignored it because they where afraid to be called racist. For you see if they won't do anything for little white girls they will do even less for gays.

do we have a conservative in the house with the courage and integrity of Laura Mixon, someone honest enough and brave enough to denounce the excesses of their "own side?"

~ don't forget the stupidity to criticize firemen trying to put out a fire while people are trapped inside. I thought he wasn't taking sides a few days ago?

"And this is why Martin cannot write heroes. He utterly does not understand honor, pride, or even simply standing by your own side."

I read a truly horrible boys coming of age novel I knew was written by a woman despite the pen name, because I knew I could write a better one.

"What should we do about Vox? I think I'll buy him a drink, but withhold the little blue umbrella. "

Make it with the cheap Russian vodka, oh nossss we poured it all out because of a law that doesn't affect consenting adults that don't have public sex.

the concept strikes them about as credible as the idea that I don't require oxygen or water.~ Don't they know that Loc-Nar's sums of evil can survive in a vacuum?

"I've seen Martin's picture, and he really IS a neckbeard."~ cough small cough 'wiener, wiener,' wiener,' Martin,

"Although he had plenty of troops, he did not have many men."~ I use the rule of thumb, something must be bigger than my thumb to count amongst man.

"Deny him a platform and he will build his own... and you will never silence him again."~ incoming You didn't build that, but it is against the zoning ordinance so sayeth Soros

blond-haired, blue-eyed son who asked me a decade ago: "Why do the movie villains always look like me, mama?"~ because portraying reality is racist watch Bait Car and Cops to safely see reality

" If they successfully peel him off, they can just tag him as the problem, declare victory and change the rules."

Vox keep your eyes out for fugly lesbians and trannies carrying goalposts past you.

"Donated Worldcon memberships?...I salute Ms Kowal on her Wiley Coyote-level of Super-Genius."
.Perhaps they will make an in kind donation to hungry children in Appalachia, alas leftists are only generous with other peoples money

"Are there any limits to free speech?" People don't even know what the words mean.

Blogger rcocean April 12, 2015 2:54 PM  

Nice to see some others on the thread who don't like "Game of thrones" the TV series or the books. I find endless Machiavellian maneuvering and backstabbing by unlikable people boring. And I'm too old to be titillated or shocked by violence, kinky sex, or absurd plot twists.

Anonymous Mr. A is Mr. A April 12, 2015 2:58 PM  

@rcocean
Nice to see some others on the thread who don't like "Game of thrones" the TV series or the books. I find endless Machiavellian maneuvering and backstabbing by unlikable people boring. And I'm too old to be titillated or shocked by violence, kinky sex, or absurd plot twists.


You may have hit the reason GRRM is taking so long to write the next book(s): he's bored of it for the same reason.

Blogger bob k. mando April 12, 2015 4:13 PM  

B Lewis April 11, 2015 10:48 PM
I once did business with a famous SF writer (a name you all would know) who was not only as queer as a three-credit chip but also abrasive ("Do your homework!" he sneered at me after I corrected an error of history he'd made in his latest book), but insufferably arrogant, spending much of our meetings bragging about how famous and important he was. Yet even this famous guy, this fellow whose name any fan of American TV SF would instantly recognize


David G?

Anonymous Donn April 13, 2015 2:48 AM  

Val - GRRM has always hated heroes and heroism. He also doesn't understand what makes a hero. Villains and victims just like Stephen King. Both are excellent writers and I do buy their work. However, GRRM's problem is that he lives in the subversive world he needs to find the superversive in himself.

GRRM will not , _cannot_ dig himsel out of that hole. Even his protagonists his 'heroes' never manage to be competent, moral, strong or wise they are 'victims' in one way or another.

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