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Saturday, April 11, 2015

George Martin knows we're right

He appears to be underwhelmed by the panicked SJW proposals to change the rules and destroy the Hugos because the wrong people are on the 2015 shortlists:
Over at Making Light, and on several other sites, various rules changes are being proposed to prevent this from happening ever again. There are so many different proposals they make my head spin. More nominating slots, less nominating slots, weighted voting, eliminating the supporting memberships, outlawing slates, limiting nominees to a single nomination, juried nominations... on and on and on. The worldcon business meeting is never exactly a funfest, but if the proponents of half these proposals show up at Sasquan, this year's will be a nightmare. And will probably still be going on when MidAmericon II convenes.

I am against all these proposals. If indeed I am at Spokane, and if I can get myself up in time for the business meeting, I will vote against every one of them.

Most of them, frankly, suck. And the mere fact that so many people are discussing them makes me think that the Puppies won. They started this whole thing by saying the Hugo Awards were rigged to exclude them. That is completely untrue, as I believe I demonstrated conclusively in my last post. So what is happening now? The people on MY SIDE, the trufans and SMOFs and good guys, are having an endless circle jerk trying to come up with a foolproof way to RIG THE HUGOS AND EXCLUDE THEM. God DAMN, people. You are proving them right....

Which brings me to another proposed countermeasure: the No Award strategy.

This comes in two flavors. The hardliners propose we vote NO AWARD for everything. Every category, even the ones where the Puppies have no nominees. No Hugo Awards at Sasquan, whatsoever. We'll show them. Rather than letting them move into our house, we will burn it to the ground. "We had to destroy the village in order to save it." It worked so well in Vietnam.

All I've got to say about this idea is, are you fucking crazy?

The other approach is less radical. Vote NO AWARD in all the categories that are All Puppy. In the others, chose between the nominees (there are a few) that did not appear on either the Sad Puppy or Rabid Puppy slate, and place all the rest, the SP/RP candidates, under No Award.

That's less insane than the "No Award For Everything" idea, but only a little bit. Sorry, I will not sign on for this one either. For a whole bunch of reasons. For starts, the Puppies are already proclaiming that "No Award" equals victory for them (though sometimes it seems as though they believe anything that happens constitutes victory for them).
It's called Xanatos Gambit, George. Look it up. Anything that happens IS a victory for us. That's why "the trufans and SMOFs and good guys" are so upset. Deny us Hugos? Whoop-de-damn-do. We were never going to even be nominated anyhow. Change the rules? Make our point AND, as a bonus, make future Awards less legitimate. No Award everything? See: 2016 Hugos. No Award us? See: 2016 Hugos and you. Leave well enough alone and simply vote on the merits? Some of ours win a few richly deserved Hugos.

Of course, what George and HIS SIDE don't seem to grasp, that Brad Torgersen tried to explain to them yesterday, is that not only are priorities of the Rabid Puppies not those of the "trufans and SMOFs and good guys", they are not those of the Sad Puppies either. Brad and Larry and Sad Puppies aren't the bad guys.

We are. We are the reavers and the renegades and the revolutionaries, and we don't give a quantum of a damn about pieces of plastic or the insider approval they represent.


You would think it would stop being funny at some point. And you would be wrong.


Mad Mike Williamson, whose work is a 2015 Hugo nominee in the Best Related category, explains why the Old Way is no longer respected:
I attended SFWA functions at Torcon, where I tended bar, Loscon, and then Philcon.  The staff of SFWA knew who I was.  They greeted me on sight by first name. When I pulled out cover sheets of my next book ("The Hero"), one of the officers said, "Oh, a collaboration. Who's John Ringo?"

At that point, John had about ten more books than I did, including three NYT bestsellers with David Weber.

But the in-crowd hadn't heard of him.

And thus it often still is.  The in-crowd goes to the meetings, to the literary conventions, the writer that goes with them gets known, and then gets mentioned by friends, blogged about, and eventually, gifted with suggestions of awards.

Think about winners the last few years.  Are they good?  Generally. Popular? Within a small subsect always.  Not always among SF fans overall.  Can you think of any winners, where you'd think, "This other book that came out that year was better. Why didn't it win?"

George RR Martin laments the "marketing" that has come to the Hugos, that the Old Way is no longer respected.

That's because an NYT bestseller with 13 books out was unknown to the people who promote the award.
And the International Lord of Hate himself explains why it's important to hate the player, not the team.
For those just joining us, if you are wondering where this is coming from, there are a couple of reasons many Sad Puppies supporters are leery of Tor.

There are a few Tor editors who have accused my people of some vile and outlandish things recently, but the Nielsen Haydens are only a couple of the editors there.  Sure, they’ve been insulting, but I’m not going to tar the other editors by association, especially since most of them haven’t said anything, and some have been very nice to us.

Tor.com has posted some asinine stuff on this subject, talked a lot of trash about us, and run some absurd, preachy, social engineering, wannabe literati wankery articles. However, Tor.com isn’t Tor the publisher. From what I’ve been told by some Tor employees, they are kind of their own thing.
Translation: all Torlings are SJWs who work for Tor or are otherwise associated with Tor. But not all people who work for Tor or are otherwise associated with them are Torlings. And some of the worst SJWs in science fiction have no association with Tor at all, but are merely trying to curry favor with the Nielsen Hayden clique in order to obtain an association with Tor.

So leave Tor qua Tor out of it. Tor.com is fair game; Patrick Nielsen Hayden runs it. The Toad of (formerly) Tor is fair game. Moshe whatever-his-name-is is fair game, he's publicly taken shots at us. But as for the rest, give them the chance to be neutral or even to quietly take our side. We hardly lack for enemies as it stands.

Labels:

100 Comments:

Blogger Krul April 11, 2015 5:45 AM  

Well well well.

Mr "Above-it-all".

Mr "Let's-not-take-sides-here".

Went from this:

I suspect I may get those sorts of emails from both sides of the Puppygate wars. I have my own views on all of this, and they don't line up precisely what what either camp is saying.

So be it. My views are my views. I do not speak for any clique or slate or movement.
GRRM

To this:

The people on MY SIDE, the trufans and SMOFs and good guys... GRRM

In a little over one day. "MY SIDE"! In ALL CAPS, no less.

Forgive me for preening, but I totally called it:

Somehow I expect this to be one of those "I don't agree with either side, but one side is clearly right and good and the other side is clearly wrong and bad" situations. Krul

Turns out GRRM is just another fat rabbit. What a shocking twist!

Blogger Jim April 11, 2015 5:47 AM  

"That is completely untrue, as I believe I demonstrated conclusively in my last post... God DAMN, people. You are proving them right...."

Translation: I have this wonderful theory that works on paper, but reality won't cooperate.

Anonymous Gx1080 April 11, 2015 5:51 AM  

First link is broken, this is the real one.

While he's wrong, I do wish that GRRM can convince the twits to not burn down the Hugos. Though all the "scorch the earth for hurtimg my feelings" comments on his blog sure aren't hopeful.

Anonymous realmatt April 11, 2015 5:57 AM  

Can someone nutshell this whole fiasco in 1 paragraph? I cant seem to power through anything unrelated to sluts. I think I should start wearing the glasses I was prescribed 13 years ago.

OpenID cailcorishev April 11, 2015 6:05 AM  

God DAMN, people. You are proving them right....

They're proving us right because we ARE right. How complicated is that?

He starts from a false assumption -- that the process was fair, and the Puppies have been making it up -- so naturally he comes to false conclusions. He has to believe we're somehow tricking them into fulfilling our predictions, or that it's all a big mistake.

But the predictions weren't about what they would do; they're about who they are. They can't stop being who they are, and if they weren't the kind of people who would react this way, they wouldn't have been doing what they were doing in the first place and created his situation.

That's why the Xanatos Gambit works (and why it doesn't hurt to explain it). It's not a grand strategy that outsmarts everyone. It's simply the recognition of who they are and what limits they put on themselves. It's guaranteed to work because the victory conditions they put on themselves cannot be achieved if they're understood and openly opposed.

Blogger Mark Citadel April 11, 2015 6:06 AM  

I wonder what McRapey is doing right now. Wearing another dress or perhaps crying because his clique don't have a way of winning this one. Either let good writers take the house, or burn their own house to the ground.

Anonymous realmatt April 11, 2015 6:20 AM  

Okay I did a line of coke and powered through a terrible whiney article. I dont see the problem. All you guys did was publically campaign for people who can vote, to vote for certain works? SJWs are the epitomy of worthlessness.

Vox, do you watch "Supernatural" regularly? I only started watching because Bane talked about it. I brushed it off initially, expecting it to be more prettyboy nonsense, but but it has surprisingly good writing for a tv show on a crappy network. Has more potential than I think the writers realize, to explore the nature of God and evil. I wonder if they realize the implications of what they've written so far.

Anonymous Smokey April 11, 2015 6:24 AM  

I wonder what McRapey is doing right now.

Desperately trying to distance himself from SJW retards, and curry favor with the centrists in the hopes that he can sidestep the consequences?

Blogger Krul April 11, 2015 6:26 AM  

Related OT. All this "Xanatos" talk is making me nostalgic for Gargoyles. I used to love it when I was a kid.

For those who don't know, Gargoyles was one of the more serious, darker themed action cartoons of the mid-90s. My childhood! It was Disney's answer to Batman: The Animated Series.

In order to avoid the cartoon cliche of a comical villain who is routinely thwarted by the heroes, they created a unique antagonist: David Xanatos, for whom the Xanatos Gambit is named. Instead of just having the Gargoyles beat Xanatos every week, the writers would have the Gargoyles caught up in elaborate plans such that Xanatos would benefit whether they lived or died. Xanatos didn't even seem to view the Gargoyles as enemies, but as tools that he could manipulate into advancing his goals whenever it was convenient.

I remember one scene in which Xanatos' incarcerated girlfriend, Fox, is enthusiastically explaining Xanatos' latest plan to Detective Elisa Maza. (Sorry about the link; it's the only video I could find with this clip)

Maza: "So, why are you telling me all of this? Because he left you to rot in jail."
Fox: "You haven't got a clue. You're so far behind him it's pathetic. He told me to tell you. He doesn't have to hide his plans from you! There's not a thing you can do to stop him."

A great character from a great show, and a worthy reference for SP/RP.

Blogger ray April 11, 2015 6:29 AM  

George Rabbit Rabbit Martin. Not quite the same ring.

Too bad. Showed some promise, once.

Anonymous realmatt April 11, 2015 6:39 AM  

The first season of Gargoyles was incredible. It was my favorite show. The second season was ok, but when they revamped it for kids, the 3rd season was terrible. Even the animation suffered. It was like the last episodes of the X-Men cartoon, which were abolutely horrible, and even aired sporadically. Why bother at all? American animation is mostly dreadful, I'm sad to say.

Anonymous Omar's Running Shoes April 11, 2015 6:53 AM  

Who counts the votes?

Is it done openly?

My guess is that there is one strategy left to them and they'll probably use it, if you catch my drift.

"It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything."

Joseph "Rabbit Master" Stalin

Anonymous Sensei April 11, 2015 6:55 AM  

Brad and Larry and Sad Puppies aren't the bad guys. We are. We are the reavers and the renegades and revolutionaries

This seems to be more or less the point where Alpha and Sigma converge.. "Follow me, outside their system"

Anonymous Gary April 11, 2015 7:10 AM  

The Social Justice Whore meltdown the last several days has done my heart good.

Between Gamergate and the Hugo awards a well deserved stick in the eyeball.

More please.

Blogger IM2L844 April 11, 2015 7:18 AM  

Can someone nutshell this whole fiasco in 1 paragraph?

How about one sentence?

The rabbit's primary means of communication is through posturing.

Anonymous hygate April 11, 2015 7:28 AM  

The Toad wants to bring in a security expert? I haven't heard about this. I assume she wants to find a way to limit voting to the "right" people.

Blogger Vox April 11, 2015 7:35 AM  

First link is broken, this is the real one.

Fixed, thanks.

Blogger Jim April 11, 2015 7:37 AM  

American animation is mostly dreadful, I'm sad to say.

Most animation is dreadful. It's just that the foreign good stuff is more likely to be imported than the foreign bad stuff.

Gargoyles was also notable for picking up the Next Gen cast at what must have been a fire auction. Jonathan Frakes, Marina Sirtis, Brent Spiner, Michael Dorn, heck, they pre-empted Voyager and picked up Kate Mulgrew.

Blogger Krul April 11, 2015 7:42 AM  

Jim - Gargoyles was also notable for picking up the Next Gen cast at what must have been a fire auction. Jonathan Frakes...

Oh yeah, how could I forget?

David Xanatos was voiced by none other than Jonathan Frakes, who is most famous for playing Nate's favorite character: William Riker! (He turned down command, did ya know?)

Blogger Rantor April 11, 2015 7:42 AM  

Sad Puppies have an Anthem

Anonymous clk April 11, 2015 7:50 AM  

"We are the reavers ...."

Sure ...part of the game is making the enemy beleive you are capable of anything .... but... its very important you dont believe you own propaganda... know yourself...

Blogger Salt April 11, 2015 7:56 AM  

I do wish that GRRM can convince the twits to not burn down the Hugos.

The rabbits have two choices, immolate the Hugos and themselves or immolate themselves only. Mr. Martin has mentioned that more of his kind should get involved; counter the puppies by numbers. We all know they won't be able to not No Award the puppies. The fervor for that should get intense. The Hugos are theirs, after all. The Toad said so. Mr. Martin says the Hugos belong to worldcon (baseline yes) and tru-fans like himself.

Puppydom can ensure burning it down does not happen, by out-voting them across the board. But I ask you, which would be more fun? Which holds greater entertainment?

Pain, suffering, loss of life aside, I once watched a rocket take off at Canaveral. Yeah, it's loud and kinda cool. But the one launching a salettite I saw blew about a minute after launch. Now, that was cool - in a science fiction kinda way.

Blogger Jim April 11, 2015 8:05 AM  

Puppydom can ensure burning it down does not happen, by out-voting them across the board. But I ask you, which would be more fun? Which holds greater entertainment?

Depends. Blowing it up is fun for the moment. Seizing it, destroying the rabbits, seeing them driven before you, and hearing the lamentations of their post-binary gender spouses every year? Rename the award ceremony the Harvest of Tears. Truly, that is best.

Anonymous Isidore The Farmer April 11, 2015 8:09 AM  

I never read new SFF. By the time I read one it is usually a few decades old and an established classic. I did read some John C. Wright stuff that was really good, but that is it. As a result, I really don't know any of the players here - I only know what I read here on the blog. That said, this is marvelous. You all have no idea how encouraging it is to see SJW on the run in any field of battle, period, it having occurred so seldomly in my lifetime.

Keep in mind that at this point you have no clue how pissed I will be if you stop now. You have to finish this. A loss would be one thing, but we do not need to see yet another traditionalist retreat.

Anyway, just one outsider here that absolutely loves what's happening. I could probably even spare $40 to help out, if needed next year. Seeing SJW on the run for once in my life, in any arena, is worth it. Would love to see it extended to other arenas of the culture war.

Anonymous Sensei April 11, 2015 8:12 AM  

Sad Puppies have an Anthem

Yankees...

Blogger Vox April 11, 2015 8:18 AM  

Keep in mind that at this point you have no clue how pissed I will be if you stop now. You have to finish this. A loss would be one thing, but we do not need to see yet another traditionalist retreat.

We won't stop. We may lose this year. We may lose next year. At Stross's site, Antipope, they are mocking the very idea that we could round up enough support to nuke the 2016 Hugos, although one realist pointed out that last year, they didn't think we could round up sufficient support to sweep the shortlists.

We may be defeated. But we will not quit. This is our first victory in a long time. It will not be the last, but not every engagement will be a win.

Anonymous PhillipGeorge(c)2015 April 11, 2015 8:21 AM  

ditto Isadore, from SF and gaming, onwards and upwards.....
next step reality; news media, courts, schools, universities, science, economics, even representative government - all things are possible.. just don't give another 'damned' inch to 'damned' ideological fools

Anonymous George of the Jungle April 11, 2015 8:22 AM  

...so when does the fantastical denouement occur, anyway?

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus April 11, 2015 8:28 AM  

"We won't stop."

Finish them!

Anonymous Trimegistus April 11, 2015 8:35 AM  

One thing which I've come to realize over the past few days: the Left in science fiction is already at full strength. They're busy little organizers and networkers, and until now their biggest advantage has been that they've got their side fully mobilized.

But the Puppy Incident has demonstrated that there are potentially a HELL of a lot of non-leftist fans out there, and by getting just a small portion of them fired up you've fought the SJWs to a draw this year. Next year . . .

Blogger Mr.MantraMan April 11, 2015 8:36 AM  

I understand the good cop bad cop tactic, but as for the "good guys" they cannot stoop to playing the role of kindly conservative papa who while slightly befuddled and vexed by the behavior of their misbegotten radical children wishes and works to help them out of some sense of duty.

Of course the radical children will always allow old conservative papa a role as harmless old crank whose time has passed but they still like him if he shuts his mouth (which means they soon float a peace offering to the "good guys")

Anonymous Meh April 11, 2015 8:36 AM  

So leave Tor qua Tor out of it.

There are some decent Republicans... there were some decent Nazis... there were some decent Bolsheviks... don't punish their rotten, corrupt organization or you'll only discourage the moderates and encourage the hard-liners...

Blogger Joshua_D April 11, 2015 8:39 AM  

The last line got me. It was pretty amusing, but I actually laughed at the last line. Good stuff.

Blogger Salt April 11, 2015 8:43 AM  

But the Puppy Incident has demonstrated that there are potentially a HELL of a lot of non-leftist fans out there

Not non-leftist fans, non-SJW fans. Non-SJW fans cross all boundaries. It's not about the Hugos, being but one piller of SJW-ism. You want numbers whose entertainment is crushing these idiots? Guess where they are?

Anonymous Shut up rabbit April 11, 2015 9:05 AM  

It will be hilarious watching them openly trying to decide on what solution to apply while crying, "It's not fixed!" to the world. They must decide and declare their strategy in full public view. They cannot afford to split their votes or the puppies will clean up across the board. Delightful.

Blogger JDC April 11, 2015 9:20 AM  

Always entertaining...however my favorite line was in the Brian Williams parody and the quote, "Don't worry...someone will pay for birth control." When one's world is crumbling underneath their feet, it's always good to focus on the important matters.

The SJW tactic of infiltrating and shunning is biting them in the ass. Reavers offer no quarter.

Close the door, put out the light.
You know they won't be home tonight.
The snow falls hard and don't you know?
The winds of Thor are blowing cold.
They're wearing steel that's bright and true
They carry news that must get through.

They choose the path where no-one goes.

They hold no quarter.

Anonymous Gary April 11, 2015 9:41 AM  

Count on them stuffing the ballot box or just simply falsifying the voting results.

Progressives been doing it since the beginning of time, its the Chicago way.

Anonymous Rhys April 11, 2015 9:42 AM  

@ realmatt: Supernatural was the best show on TV but it should have ended with season 5. It was a show that managed to sneak in concepts of family loyalty, heroism, duty and religion without the TV execs catching on and canning it.

Anonymous J April 11, 2015 9:46 AM  

But the Puppy Incident has demonstrated that there are potentially a HELL of a lot of non-leftist fans out there

There already are lots of actual (not potential) non-Leftist fans. They just didn't give enough of a shit about the Hugos to mobilize against the SJW. But then the SJW gave us a reason to do so by rubbing our faces in the message-fiction feces while insisting it was delicious chocolate and we should love it.

Blogger Shibes Meadow April 11, 2015 9:50 AM  

There is one way the SF/SJWs can still win: they can simply lie about the results of the final ballot, install Noah Ward as the winner, and declare victory.

Those Hugo votes are counted in secret. It's a good thing the people counting them are 100% honest and would never dream of simply making up their own results. Expect to see V-P Day (Victory over Puppies Day) the day the results are announced.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus April 11, 2015 9:51 AM  

clk: "its very important you dont believe you own propaganda... know yourself..."

And know your enemies.

Compared to "people on MY SIDE [George Martin's side], the trufans and SMOFs and good guys"?

Reavers.

George Martin's side is simultaneously saying that the Hugos were not stitched up, and saying that there has to be a better stitch-up or the awards have to be demolished altogether because the old stitch-up isn't good enough any longer. Their genius, who is telling them not to be so silly, has said both that he's above having sides and that one side, "the trufans and SMOFs and good guys," is "MY SIDE".

Ride right through them, they're demoralized as hell.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 April 11, 2015 9:53 AM  

Hey George R. R. Martin, when you're done with your Song of Ice and Fire series and criticizing Tolkien over bringing Gandalf back, then maybe I'll take you seriously.

Until then, you're just a nihilist who likes to show off literary wieners.

Blogger Cataline Sergius April 11, 2015 9:58 AM  

The funny part is they are refusing to do the smart thing on general principle.

The smart thing would be for them to go, "fine, let the baby have it's bottle. We'll vote their ballot as is. It's hardly the end of world if Jim Butcher and Toni Weisskopf get their first Hugos after all this time. We will be the ones looking all grown up."

And that would work. Right now, I'm having forty dollars worth of fun but if they did that I might have second thoughts about it next year.

Fortunately doing the smart thing is simply beyond them. They can't do it.

Anonymous Mike Mike April 11, 2015 10:03 AM  

From the video... where/who is talking about LTC Kratman's military record?

Anonymous Culture War Draftee April 11, 2015 10:13 AM  

Why haven't the SJWs hit on the obvious solution? Set up nominating committees by oppressed minority fan subgroup. So there will be an POC-trufen Committee, a Wymmins committee, a LGBTQRSTUV Committee, however many the imagination can muster. Then the Hugos can be one big SafeSpace.

Anonymous BigGaySteve April 11, 2015 10:13 AM  

"they believe anything that happens constitutes victory for them."

I am fairly certain that if they squat out crack babies it wouldn't be a victory for us since our side pays more in taxes than we get in taxpayer paid benefits. I hope the SJWs don't figure this out as a way to defeat us.

"Has more potential than I think the writers realize, to explore the nature of God and evil. I wonder if they realize the implications of what they've written so far."

Most of the time this happens in Hollywood its someone sneaking in a message that others just don't get or he might say its from "waves hands" some unknown minority culture.

"Jonathan Frakes, who is most famous for playing Nate's favorite character: William Riker! (He turned down command, did ya know?"

Didn't he get his own flying castle in gargoyles?~ I knew a bartender that said he slept with him.

"Who counts the votes?Is it done openly?" ~Special guest Lena Dunham will be pulling the votes out of something 3years old.

We might want to consider putting things on the blog that would be painful for the rabbits to read if they are coming here to get tips for how to win. We could put badthinks like "Evolution didn't stop at the neck in humans" , "White privilege is evolution that's why Asians have it also" , " We should be pro choice because women on the right wont have abortions but lefty girls will screw like pigs & get abortions until they are too old/ugly to get a man/kids, letting our side win the long game"

Within a few years winter snowfall will become "a very rare and exciting event""Children just aren't going to know what snow is," Dr David Viner senior research scientist at the climatic research unit (CRU) March 20, 2000

They are the cultural enemy. They have openly declared no quarter and asserted that there is no place in their society for those who don't submit to their vision of social justice. Rendering them unemployed, from within and without, and otherwise removing their microphones is a purely self-defensive, and above all, necessary tactic-Vox Day

Is being gay a choice?-"A man is given the choice between loving women and understanding them" ~Ninon de L'Enclos (a woman)
In Common Core Math 2+2=5 is more accurate than There! Are! Four! Lights! By this point lefty blood pressure is >180 systolic

Blogger Cataline Sergius April 11, 2015 10:14 AM  

This is becoming difficult to wargame. Judging from John Ringo's facebook feed about a third to half of his fans had never heard of the Hugo awards until last week and were waiting for him to tell them how to feel about it.

My opinion (which I freely admit reflects my own bigotry and prejudice) is that the SJWs Hugo ignorance ran to about 2/3s.

You gotta remember if a book isn't a Doctor Who or Halo tie-in, most Millennial science fiction fans aren't going to bother to read it. The why is obvious to Gen Xers, when we first took an interest, the Hugos were a mark of quality. That hasn't been the case for sometime.

The Social Justice Mob has been activated. But aside from calling Brad Torgersen a racist for marrying a black woman, I don't think there is a lot they can do. There are no major industry's to be bullied.

The shakedown artists are probably sniffing around but honestly what is there to shakedown. It's publishing.

Bottom line: There are suddenly a lot of outside players taking an interest. But I can't tell how interested they are going to be.

Right wing alt media is engaged and sympathetic. But I don't think there are any more votes to had there.

The big question is, are the outsider SJWs engaged enough to shell out forty bucks?

Forty bucks is a lot of cat food.

Anonymous Trimegistus April 11, 2015 10:20 AM  

Catiline: You are absolutely correct. All the power that Vox wields right now is power the SJWs have given him. They could take it away in an instant by behaving like normal, sane adults.

Which is what makes this such a Xanatos Gambit, because that is the one thing they can never do.

If this is a conscious plot by Vox, then he is truly an evil genius manipulator and deserves an island base and a white cat.

Blogger Zimri April 11, 2015 10:23 AM  

re the Toad and GRRM - "Think of them… stuffing their faces with ham and blood sausage and stew, getting nice and fat and marbled."

Look who's coming to dinner. As they say.

Blogger Zimri April 11, 2015 10:26 AM  

/meh: "there were some decent Bolsheviks..."

False analogy. Those organisations you mention were founded on evil. Tor wasn't.

Anonymous WinstonWebb April 11, 2015 10:27 AM  

Isidore The Farmer April 11, 2015 8:09 AM
...this is marvelous. You all have no idea how encouraging it is to see SJW on the run in any field of battle, period, it having occurred so seldomly in my lifetime.


That's the real trick. You typically don't see rabbits running from a field of battle because they will never enter a battle voluntarily to begin with.
You have to bring the battle to their warren.
The events of #GamerGate and of SP/RP have been very educational in that aspect. My hope is that everyone in opposition to the myth of Social Justice and its proselytizers is paying attention. This is how you beat them.

Anonymous Incurvatus April 11, 2015 10:41 AM  

"But sir, [Kratman's] book is full of many badthinkfeels."
BwaaaHahaha

Blogger Vox April 11, 2015 10:50 AM  

From the video... where/who is talking about LTC Kratman's military record?

An SJW at Torgersen's place.

Anonymous Meh April 11, 2015 10:53 AM  

False analogy. Those organisations you mention were founded on evil. Tor wasn't.

They were founded to fight evil -- the evils of slavery, the evils of Tsarism, the evils of the Versailles Treaty.

But in point of fact it does not matter. Even if an organization was totally good, and did good things for much of its existence, once it has been subverted by evil, and is run by evil people, then good people must wash their hands of it even if some other good people are still associated with it in subordinate positions. Eventually the organization must either collapse or be destroyed and replaced by something else.

Many churches and universities fall into this category (once good, now evil and run by the evil). Arguably, the public school system also.

Blogger S1AL April 11, 2015 10:58 AM  

Re: Supernatural - It picked back up after season 7.

Anonymous Meh April 11, 2015 10:59 AM  

One should also note that whatever it may achieve in regard to the Hugos, SP is not going to reform Tor, i.e., get rid of its evil leadership and stop it from publishing SJW dreck. Only economic failure will do that. Good people should wish to expedite the process by not buying Tor products.

Blogger Didact April 11, 2015 11:00 AM  

I have to go with AMON AMARTH's epic track "We Shall Destroy" for this one. It applies beautifully.

It amuses me no end to find that the SJWs are in such an utter state of panic over the fact that those of us who like good fiction, and don't give the slightest hoot about ideology and the "in-crowd", are using their own rules against them. What Sad/Rabid Puppies did was completely legitimate, operating entirely within the existing nominating rules of the awards process. And we beat them and their twisted ideology like a drum in the process. Where's the bad?!

Now they're threatening all-out nuclear war because they don't like our choices. Good. Bring it on. They'll rapidly find that not only are we better armed and more numerous than they are, but that we're considerably better at this game than they are.

Anonymous Meh April 11, 2015 11:10 AM  

"Now they're threatening all-out nuclear war because they don't like our choices"

Does this really surprise you? These are the same people who, writ large, would rather die than let us have any say in how the country is run, and would even rather die than leave us alone.

Anonymous WinstonWebb April 11, 2015 11:13 AM  

These are the same people who, writ large, would rather die than let us have any say in how the country is run, and would even rather die than leave us alone.

That's not correct. You are close, but this is more in line with leftist ideology:
They would rather have us all killed than let us have any say in how the country is run, and would even rather have us all killed than leave us alone. If they happen to lose large masses of their own in the process, then that's a sacrifice they're willing to make.

Anonymous Donn April 11, 2015 11:14 AM  

So what happens if they no award the whole thing? They change the rules there are still more of us than them and whole slates will again be all puppies they will have to repeat the no awards again and so on.

They should stop now as a group since they have no real leaders and say okay, we'll nominate and vote based strictly on quality. No ideology, no message. If they were honest about that most fans would say, 'fine'.

As it is now SP and RP get no Hugos how is no award worse than 'no awards'. SWJ just don't have a path to victory so how do they win? Only way is if our side gives up.

Anonymous RedJack April 11, 2015 11:15 AM  

Cataline Sergius April 11, 2015 9:58 AM
The funny part is they are refusing to do the smart thing on general principle.


And that would work. Right now, I'm having forty dollars worth of fun but if they did that I might have second thoughts about it next year.

Fortunately doing the smart thing is simply beyond them. They can't do it.

I feel the same way. I fully expect that next year, some sort of rule will be in place that bans me and anyone else who voted a SP person on the ballot (yet, I didn't use the full slate, I entered a few in of my own).
My only concern is that there are authors who are going to get hurt. I doubt that Brad really wants to play this game again next year.

Blogger Jim April 11, 2015 11:17 AM  

[b]One should also note that whatever it may achieve in regard to the Hugos, SP is not going to reform Tor, i.e., get rid of its evil leadership and stop it from publishing SJW dreck. Only economic failure will do that.[/b]

Economic failure is a bigger hurdle to clear when it's entirely possible to survive as a niche publisher. Keep in mind that the goal of a SJW organization is not to make money, but to inflict SJW dogma on a community. They seek out established and successful organizations as hosts to pervert the built up social cache and gravitas for their own ends. If they reduce the market appeal of those organizations in the process, oh well. It doesn't matter to them, so long as the host organism still gets a seat of honor at the table.

Thus, SP might actually help reform Tor by depriving the SJWs of their reason for infesting the publishing house in the first place. Of course, there's always the likelihood that Tor is beyond being saved, and you can't get rid of the parasite without killing the host.

Anonymous Atombum April 11, 2015 11:28 AM  

I could use a Hitler rant vid about once a month......about anything.

Anonymous Salt April 11, 2015 11:37 AM  

I doubt that Brad really wants to play this game again next year.

Brad's not. Next year it's Kate the Impaler.

Anonymous Anonymous April 11, 2015 11:42 AM  

Cataline Sergius April 11, 2015 10:14 AM
[snip]
Forty bucks is a lot of cat food.


+1

Blogger Vox April 11, 2015 11:45 AM  

So what happens if they no award the whole thing? They change the rules there are still more of us than them and whole slates will again be all puppies they will have to repeat the no awards again and so on.

They know there are more of them than there are are of us in the finals vote. For example, last year there were 1,595 nominating ballots cast and 3,137 votes cast in Best Novel, the biggest category. The top nominee had 193 nominating ballots and 2,327 votes against No Award.

And they had 1,140 anti-Vox No Award votes and 964 anti-Larry No Award votes last year.

They know we have around 350 nominating ballots, which this year was sufficient to do whatever we wanted. They are assuming we can't boost that to around 2,500, which will be the minimum required next year to guarantee No Award. That's why some of them are thinking they can safely nuke the awards this year and we won't be able to respond next year.

Of course, they didn't think we could get 350 this year either.

Blogger Danby April 11, 2015 11:59 AM  

"Now they're threatening all-out nuclear war because they don't like our choices. "

No, they ostentatiously refuse to read our choices. The actual nominees are irrelevant. They've said so explicitly.
They don't like us, shitlord. We're wrongfans having wrongfun. There's no place is SF for our type and it's about damn time we surrendered to them.

Blogger Danby April 11, 2015 12:02 PM  

@Vox
So the voting population tends to be about 200% of the nominating. Which would put you at about 700 votes in the final. Which is about 400 votes shy of their total forces. And about 250 shy of the "Will vote No Award because someone said so" demonstrated in last year's vote.

I think that's a reachable goal. I didn't nominate, but I'm going to be voting.

Blogger IM2L844 April 11, 2015 12:03 PM  

An institution is incapable of conferring merit. Only individuals can do that. Institutions are never anything more than tools for individuals to exploit. I keep seeing SJWs conflate the institution of the Hugo Awards with the genre of science fiction. They are not the same thing.

Blogger Robert Coble April 11, 2015 12:04 PM  

I am absolutely LOVING this frontal assault on the SJW rabbits! I began reading classic SF from the Golden Age when first starting to elementary school. (My mother taught me how to read before I entered first grade.) There was lots of SF in the high school library. The stories were great, stimulating the imagination. I stopped reading SF when it became yet another dreary exercise in political correctness. Now it seems that there are some unheralded writers who are not interested in kowtowing to the latest SJW fad. I'm going to have to give it another read. Thank you!

Funny [true] story:

I worked in DoD as a civilian up until retiring in 1996. LOTS of SJW indoctrination; it is of epidemic proportions in the government bureaucratic warrens. First, it was Race Relations, then Sexual Relations, then Human Relations. (Sort of like the "evolving global climate warming [1970s-80s], cooling [1980s-90s], change [1990s-2000s" process.) We had a mandatory re-education seminar with a SJW lawyer from Washington, DC as the "teacher." He laid out the "objective" requirements for determining if some politically incorrect speech (like telling a "dirty" joke) or behavior (posting a pinup in the workplace) constituted workplace sexual discrimination:

(1) It had to occur in the workplace. (This is the only objective requirement.)
(2) It had to be of or related to a sexual nature, whatever THAT meant.
(3) It had to be deemed offensive by the OFFENDED person.


Being the politically incorrect person that I am, I asked if I could summarize his points to see if I understood his criteria. I repeated his three points exactly as given above. He was positively beaming as he congratulated me on fully grasping the "concept" - until I countered with this line:

"When are you going to stop sexually harassing me?"

I thought the man was going to have a heart attack! He turned beet red, and started stammering about how I didn't really understand after all. I countered with his own statement congratulating me for understanding perfectly what he had said. I told him:

(1) This seminar is being conducted in the workplace - criteria #1.
(2) It is of or related to a sexual nature - criteria #2.
(3) It is HIGHLY OFFENSIVE to ME to have to waste my time on political correctness doctrine! - criteria #3.


At that point, I was told by a more senior manager to shut up or leave the room. I thanked her and went back to work. I got lots of pressure to conform, but refused to just submit to the indoctrination without comment.

I was not particularly surprised that I didn't advance into higher levels of management. It was not worth the cost to me.

Blogger slarrow April 11, 2015 12:09 PM  

That video that Krul linked to earlier has some excellent lines. Most notable to me occurs around the 10:15 mark when the gargoyle Goliath threatens Xanatos over some scheme. The reply is priceless:

"Do you want vengeance, or a solution?"

That's the issue all of rabbitdom is struggling with, albeit poorly.

Oh, and this line is awesome too (about 12:30):

"It's my first real stab at cliched villainy. How am I doing?"

Anonymous Mr. A is Mr. A April 11, 2015 12:14 PM  

David Xanatos - His Philosophy

David Xanatos: "The man Lex Luthor wishes he could be; the man who makes Norman Osborn look like a petty psycho; the man who makes even Dr. Doom look like an impractical chump."

Anonymous Mr. A is Mr. A April 11, 2015 12:17 PM  

Apologies for the double post, Krul -- I was browsing "Gargoyles" videos and didn't see this in your links.

Anonymous Meh April 11, 2015 12:21 PM  

That's not correct. You are close, but this is more in line with leftist ideology:
They would rather have us all killed than let us have any say in how the country is run, and would even rather have us all killed than leave us alone. If they happen to lose large masses of their own in the process, then that's a sacrifice they're willing to make.


Oh sure, they would love to have us all killed. But if they can't do that, they are fine with bringing down the temple - causing social, economic, and civilizational collapse that kills them all - rather than giving us a say in how the country is run or even leaving us alone.

Anonymous Rolf April 11, 2015 12:38 PM  

Robert - beautifully said. I never quite had the right pithy and quick words to counter those sorts of indoctrination classes. I'll have to remember them.

Blogger Krul April 11, 2015 12:49 PM  

It's not necessary, Mr A. I was only using it to show one scene, not the whole thing, so it isn't really redundant. It's nice to know that others around here enjoy the character as much as I did.

Anonymous Mr. A is Mr. A April 11, 2015 1:16 PM  

@Krul
"It's nice to know that others around here enjoy the character as much as I did."


During the time I was working on my PhD and as an instructor, four or five of my friends and I (including my soon-to-be-wife) heartily enjoyed three TV shows as group viewing: MST3K (because we all had done the same thing in front of our own sets growing up), Star Trek TNG (on which we practiced out MST3K skills -- TNG: the Show That Won't Stay Fresh in the Can); and Gargoyles. One of my friends, an aspiring SF writer, noted that the single most important character in the series was Xanatos; we all had a very hard time thinking of him as a villain.

Blogger Blume April 11, 2015 1:23 PM  

Tor made their bed let them lie in our ad we burn it around them. Tor.com is their public media face. They let the sjws talk for them for years. They chose to take the awards won by the Hayden instead of stopping them. Let the ship burn.

Anonymous Scintan April 11, 2015 1:23 PM  

We all know they won't be able to not No Award the puppies.

They've got the numbers to do it. The Puppies campaigns will always be better equipped to fight for the nominations than to fight for the actual winners, unless the campaigns either grow exponentially or manage to get other movements (i.e. gamergate) to come for the LOLs.

And, if Noah Ward wins this year, one suggestion to VD would be to try "Burn it to the ground" as next year's motto, and to get things started as soon as this year's winners are announced. That could bring in a lot of arsonists, regardless of their pet causes.

Blogger Krul April 11, 2015 1:28 PM  

Mr A - One of my friends, an aspiring SF writer, noted that the single most important character in the series was Xanatos; we all had a very hard time thinking of him as a villain.

Undoubtedly, he was far more important and more complex than a typical cartoon villain, but he wasn't the only good thing about the show. My personal favorite episode doesn't feature him at all. It's the one in which a grieving father captures Anubis the Egyptian god of death and demands the return of his dead son. I think that one had the best writing of the show, and the best part was who they got to play Anubis: Tony Jay.

Blogger James Dixon April 11, 2015 2:10 PM  

> ...we all had a very hard time thinking of him as a villain.

Because he wasn't a villain in the traditional sense. He was simply a person who didn't care about other people, and treated them as tools to be used. My memory says that changed somewhat when he had a child.

OpenID malcolmthecynic April 11, 2015 2:47 PM  

Is the article where Martin believes he conclusively disproved us the same one where he backed up every single one of our claims?

Anonymous Jack Amok April 11, 2015 3:03 PM  

Sure ...part of the game is making the enemy beleive you are capable of anything .... but... its very important you dont believe you own propaganda... know yourself...

It's also important to make yourself believe you are capable of things. We are constantly the target of the enemy's propaganda. Sometimes we need to be the target of our own and take council of our dreams rather than our fears.

Anonymous Murgy "Never Interrupt Your Enemy While She's Making A Mistake" April 11, 2015 3:12 PM  

http://maryrobinettekowal.com/journal/talk-with-me-about-being-a-fan-of-science-fiction-and-fantasy/

"And finally… Vox Day. I have seen a number of people referring to his post in which he has declared war on the Hugo awards. Specifically, he has said that in 2016 he’ll rally his fans to make sure that No Award wins every category."

She conveniently leaves out that this would be a response to SJW's voting No Award for 2015. Nice.

"And to my readers — If you can afford it, I encourage you to buy a membership to WorldCon and become part of fandom. If you cannot afford it… I will buy a supporting membership to WorldCon for ten people who cannot afford it. All I ask is that you join the conversation."

And; "Tell me a little about yourself and why you'd like a supporting membership. Please note that I'll make the selection by drawing ten names randomly, this is just because I want to know a little about who I'm helping out."

This is the first I've seen anyone openly offering to buy memberships, this year. I suspect she hasn't thought this through, and considered what it means.


Blogger ScuzzaMan April 11, 2015 3:19 PM  

"This is the first I've seen anyone openly offering to buy memberships, this year. I suspect she hasn't thought this through, and considered what it means."

What it means to me is that Vox was right: there ought to be a point where this stops getting funnier by the moment, but there really isn't.

Anonymous Salt April 11, 2015 3:25 PM  

unless the campaigns either grow exponentially or manage to get other movements (i.e. gamergate) to come for the LOLs.

Assuming we're near our upper end, then it depends. Do we care enough to use certain avenues and try and get some GG into the action? Or just let nature take its course and have a cook out?

Blogger ajw308 April 11, 2015 3:31 PM  

Get rid if the supporting memberships?

Do they really want us showing up in person? Now that would be fun!

Blogger L. Beau April 11, 2015 3:57 PM  

Ray wrote, "George Rabbit Rabbit Martin. Not quite the same ring.
Too bad. Showed some promise, once."

Ray's comment reminded me of the Scourging of the Shire section of The Return of the King, in the passage where the now armed and enraged populace of Hobbiton has a much-diminished Saruman (a.k.a. "Sharkey") trapped in a corner. The mood of the crowd portended a blood soaked vengeance against Saruman. Frodo then says:

Do not kill him even now. For he has not hurt me. And in any case I do not wish him to be slain in this evil mood. He was great once, of a noble kind that we should not dare to raise our hands against. He is fallen, and his cure is beyond us; but I would still spare him, in the hope that he may find it.

Not that GRRM was as great as Saruman. Although his outlook and Sharkey's may be similar.

Anonymous Anonymous April 11, 2015 4:17 PM  

Nah, THIS is the perfect song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7DxIg8Ir3U

OpenID cailcorishev April 11, 2015 4:41 PM  

And; "Tell me a little about yourself and why you'd like a supporting membership. Please note that I'll make the selection by drawing ten names randomly, this is just because I want to know a little about who I'm helping out."

Heh. In other words, when you write to her asking for a free membership, make sure you pretend to be a SJW.

Anonymous aviendha April 11, 2015 4:46 PM  

Could the person who owns the rabid puppy art please make shirts and have vox post a link?
I will wear one at sasquan.

Anonymous Jack Amok April 11, 2015 6:19 PM  

Heh. In other words, when you write to her asking for a free membership, make sure you pretend to be a SJW.

Just say you agree with Dave W at file 770, that the award should be for works that are distinctive, not derrivative, that the Hugos should be based on something other than sales, such as, “what’s amazing and wonderful about this story” and “what new and interesting thing has someone done with science fiction lately”.

Maybe even add that you think it's terrible they've become politicized and you want to do your part to support the voice of fandom against attempts to hijack the award.

That should work, and would also have the virtue of being the truth...

Blogger James Beech April 11, 2015 7:15 PM  

As long as Tor continues to hold hands with Tor.com and employ either of the Haydens I'm done with them.

I'm sure there are good people there, but it's time those good people started speaking for themselves.

Blogger J Van Stry April 11, 2015 7:24 PM  

The thing is, the Puppies have already won. It is blatantly obvious too. But their particular brand tunnel vision just does not allow them to see it.

They could have also gotten a victory out of this, if they had been smart, open minded, and as willing to allow in all people as they claimed. However they were none of those things, so they lost, and they lost very publicly.

But hey, the more they blow up the awards, the more they denigrate and castigate straight white males, and those who really don't want their books to be about politics, the more books that I sell.
So please, by all means continue on as you have, and I will continue to make bank every month.

(Disclaimer: I'm not making LC levels of bank, or probably even Vox Day levels of bank, but I was able to quit my nice job and do what I love instead).

Anonymous Blume April 11, 2015 7:39 PM  

John just to make sure that stays true I picked up the new portals of infinity today.

Blogger Rantor April 11, 2015 7:46 PM  

I feel like we should all try and get Mary Robinette Kowal to buy us memberhips...

Blogger J Van Stry April 11, 2015 7:56 PM  

@Blume Thank you!

Blogger James Dixon April 11, 2015 8:14 PM  

> Do they really want us showing up in person? Now that would be fun!

Hmm. Kansas City. That's 840 miles. Yeah, that's doable.

> As long as Tor continues to hold hands with Tor.com and employ either of the Haydens I'm done with them.

Just remember to contact Mr. Wright if you want copies of any of his Tor works and buy directly from him.

Blogger Mark Citadel April 12, 2015 7:18 PM  

@Murgy, thanks for the heads up. Im gonna get her to buy my membership! haha. a fool is born every minute

Blogger Mark Citadel April 12, 2015 7:22 PM  

Vox, I will urge all my contacts to muck in for the final vote and get you a Hugo. I want to see these ***** humiliated. Their rhetoric these last few days has convinced me they were just as vicious as you said they were. No different to the Sarkesian white knights.

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