ALL BLOG POSTS AND COMMENTS COPYRIGHT (C) 2003-2016 VOX DAY. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. REPRODUCTION WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED.

Friday, April 03, 2015

How do they know?

Ptbarnium points out that the SJWs in science fiction are demonstrating one of the reasons Sad Puppies 3 is so badly needed:
Every single second of the controversy so far has taken place before the ballot has been announced. It might sound plain but it seems that they have all missed it. Everytime TNH wrings her aquatic hands pathetically, every time Jason Sanford stamps his feet childishly, every time Cora Buhlhert blares her senseless foghorn, the undecided ask one question: “How do you know?”

They have done more damage to their own cause than SP3 ever could simply because of their inability to restrain their wounded egos & frustrated self entitlement for four days. No matter how this all shakes out, no matter who wins, the cat is out of the bag now. To the CHORFs, wrapped in their delusions, they have done nothing wrong.

To anyone neutral, anyone without a dog in the fight, they have proven beyond all of our expectations that the motive force driving Sad Puppies is true. Anyone who asks the question “How do they know?” will see the immediate and obvious conclusion that eludes these morons, insulated by their self-righteous anger.

They know because many of the people who ‘should’ have been given the nod haven’t. Is there any other convincing reason why people un-nominated for any award seem to know the entire final slate? You could excuse knowing one or two finalists in a given category but the entire list? The only ways to have their level or knowledge at this stage are (a) Worldcon leaking or (b) interval communication based on information from the people on their own slates that were ‘supposed’ to get through. I know which one my money is on.
This is exactly right. The usual suspects, who revolve in orbit around Tor Books in general and Tor senior editor Patrick Nielsen Hayden in particular, are accustomed to quietly arranging things to their liking behind the scene. They talk to one another on a regular basis and arrange things like this outcome in 2008.

43 Best Fan Writer John Scalzi
41 Best Novel The Last Colony John Scalzi
40 Best Novel Halting State Charles Stross

That's quite the coincidence, considering that Larry, Brad, and I were accused of bloc voting in 2014 with the following outcome.

184 Best Novel Warbound Larry Correia
111 Best Novella The Chaplain's Legacy Brad Torgersen
092 Best Novelette The Exchange Officers Brad Torgersen
069 Best Novelette Opera Vita Aeterna Vox Day

What looks more like a bloc vote to you? Oh, and speaking of 2014, let's not forget this:

120 Best Novel Neptune's Brood Charles Stross
127 Best Novella Equoid Charles Stross
118 Best Novelette Lady Astronaut of Mars Mary Kowal

Again, what looks more like a bloc vote to you? Are we seriously supposed to believe that a 115-vote variance is an invalid bloc vote, but 9-vote and 3-vote variances that are limited to SJW authors published by Tor are just a pair of freakish coincidences involving the same group of closely connected authors six years apart?
Regarding Best Novel: I've heard that three of the five finalists are SP-endorsed. (Which, see above, doesn't in itself guarantee that any of them are unworthy of a Hugo.) I don't know what any of those three books are. I do know the identity of the other two, and I don't think anyone in this conversation will regard them as unworthy candidates. (Disclaimer: Neither of them are books Teresa or I worked on in any way.) - Patrick Nielsen Hayden, Senior Editor, Tor Books
Since we're speaking of PNH, how about 2009, 2010, and 2012?

76 Best Novel Saturn's Children Charles Stross
74 Best Editor Patrick Nielsen Hayden
54 Best Novel Zoe's Tale John Scalzi (Even some in on the game couldn't bring themselves to vote for that steaming little pile, but it still got enough votes to make the shortlist and keep the next two authors off: Iain M. Banks and Terry Pratchett.)

79 Best Novella The God Engines John Scalzi (indicates outside support)
56 Best Novella Palimpsest Charles Stross
52 Best Short Story Overtime Charles Stross
54 Best Editor Patrick Nielsen Hayden

49 Best Novel The Wise Man’s Fear by Patrick Rothfuss
48 Best Novel Fuzzy Nation by John Scalzi
44 Best Editor Patrick Nielsen Hayden
 
Three more amazing coincidences! How do they know? How do they know? Furthermore, Kevin Standlee, a Secret Master of Fandom and Worldcon insider, acknowledged at File 770 that these quiet little campaigns are known to have taken place in the past.
There clearly have been campaigns to get individual works on the ballot, some of them going beyond the technically legal.
- Kevin Standlee on April 2, 2015 at 9:41 am
He also added that nothing Sad Puppies has done is illegal or against the rules:
I agree with Vox that what’s been done (at least from the rumors rumbling around) isn’t illegal. It’s not against the rules. It’s simply exploiting a heretofore never-considered loophole in the rules that has never come into play because fans are traditionally not very well organized.
-Kevin Standlee on April 2, 2015 at 9:44 am
The SJWs are upset because we play openly by the rules better than they cheat behind closed doors. And the mere fact that they are so upset BEFORE THE NOMINATIONS ARE ANNOUNCED is sufficient to prove that they coordinated their whisper campaigns in the past and they are still coordinating them now. And the fact that so few people in latter-day science fiction can't see the obvious shows how crabbed and limited their imaginations are:
SF fans have been historically so independent-minded and disorganized that the idea of actually filling a slate to try and deliberately stifle anything other than a particular group of five works in each category hadn't really occurred to anyone I know of, and I've been following this since 1984. Sure, there have been deliberate campaigns (of varying degrees of ethical) to get individual works onto the ballot, but to try and monopolize all 85 spaces? Nah. Indeed, the idea would probably been laughable until fairly recently. You can't generally get five fans to agree on where to go to dinner, let alone get 500 of them to agree on exactly the same slate of Hugo Award nominees.
This juxstaposition, however, is my favorite proof that the other side is utterly incapable of thinking past the end of their noses.
  1. "There’s only one way to deal with people like Day, who see themselves as above basic human decency, and that is to cut them out of the community like a tumour. Shun them, ignore them, no-platform the hell out of them. Our conventions, our fanzines, our anthologies, our community is not open to people whose racist arguments could have come straight from the mouths of slave-owners." (April 19, 2014)
  2. "How do you bring the weight of community disapproval on someone who isn't part of the community?" (March 30, 2015)
Well, who could possibly have seen THAT coming? Give a man a platform and he will speak his mind. Deny him a platform and he will build his own... and you will never silence him again. Rabbits always think that the only possible response to being shunned is to a) submit or b) vanish. The problem, of course, is that some of us aren't rabbits.

Now a number of them are credibly threatening to No Award everything even before the announcements have been announced. And I'm wondering, do they really think we didn't anticipate that too? Considering that they repeatedly assert that Brad Torgersen is lying about the purpose of Sad Puppies, hasn't it ever occurred to them that perhaps the purpose he is concealing is different than the one they assume it must be?

It is a proper conundrum.

Labels: , ,

42 Comments:

Blogger Derrick Bonsell April 03, 2015 7:28 AM  

It's like you said: Voxiversity never quit being in session.

Anonymous MrGreenMan April 03, 2015 7:31 AM  

Mr. Obama taught us that the way to succeed was to organize. Look at all the speed humps we got installed, too!

Anonymous Smokey April 03, 2015 7:36 AM  

The more I see of this, the more I am inclined to think that there is some great conspiracy to tear down traditional bastions of sanity by shameless propaganda and hidden power plays, done by shady secret societies.

Sure, it seems silly, but on the other hand there's no way in hell these morons could have grabbed so much power and control on their own.

Blogger Cataline Sergius April 03, 2015 8:22 AM  

Regarding Best Novel: I've heard that three of the five finalists are SP-endorsed.

And his Gorgon is bellowing on about Mike Williamson letting his own cat out of the bag. In Mikes' case he was genuinely so startled, he almost didn't believe he'd been nominated.

So who was talking to Patrick? It wasn't any our finalists. None of them would have reason to do so. Was this is just process of elimination on his part?

A deduction based on comparing notes with his...wife (I suppose you'd have to call her)

Or has someone actually leaked the results to him?

Blogger IM2L844 April 03, 2015 8:25 AM  

They clearly have no concept of the long game. Allowing themselves to be goaded into doubling down on self destruction, I expect they will be doing a victory dance, shaking their fists and yelling, "That'll teach ya!" as they go over the cliff. hehe...

Blogger Astrosmith April 03, 2015 8:32 AM  

This is great; just got my $40 in to sasquan a few days ago.

Blogger Vox April 03, 2015 8:32 AM  

Or has someone actually leaked the results to him?

No, their usual whisper campaign failed. People who were expected to get nominations didn't, so they began asking around.

Blogger Cataline Sergius April 03, 2015 8:34 AM  

I hope we do reasonably well tomorrow. They've given SP so much build up that anything less than a blow out is going to have them all doing the Gamma Male Victory Dance.

It's unpleasant to watch. Scalzi in particular will be insufferable. I

Still we had a lot more visibility this year and it really doesn't take a lot to shift the ballot.

Anonymous Omar's Running Shoes April 03, 2015 8:40 AM  

No idea what a CHORF is and was unable to deduce from reading the piece.

Some days it is too cool for school around here.

Blogger Mad Dok Rob April 03, 2015 8:43 AM  

Since the beginning, Sad Puppies has been hilarious. The SJW's books may stink, but their reaction to the outsiders getting inside their private club has been soooo entertaining.

Anonymous Nathan April 03, 2015 8:44 AM  

It isn't the 3 of 5 that gets rumors of leak started; it's Sanford's assertion that the Hugo folks are pissed "that someone gamed the system" that implies the leak. SMOF posturing?

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus April 03, 2015 8:57 AM  

Smokey: "The more I see of this, the more I am inclined to think that there is some great conspiracy to tear down traditional bastions of sanity by shameless propaganda and hidden power plays, done by shady secret societies."

Like the JournoList conspiracy?

Secret societies don't have to be very secret and are easy to run if the opposition lacks an ethnic backbone, money and media power, and is morally whipped and has internalized that you don't ask hard questions.

Hard questions like, "how do they know?"

Blogger Vox April 03, 2015 8:58 AM  

It isn't the 3 of 5 that gets rumors of leak started; it's Sanford's assertion that the Hugo folks are pissed "that someone gamed the system" that implies the leak. SMOF posturing?

Almost certainly. The people running the system in Loncon are different than those running Sasquan, but they were perfectly neutral last year and I'd be surprised if they didn't follow suit this year. In the livestream last year, the man reading the nominations didn't even react when people alternately cheered or hissed.

They take pride in their professionalism, whereas PNH states quite clearly that while he knows two non-SP Best Novel nominees, he doesn't know the other three. That means he has his information from the whispering campaign, not a leak from inside.

Anonymous Leonidas April 03, 2015 9:08 AM  

They take pride in their professionalism...

And as so many here have already done (including yourself), they're to be commended for it. I greatly doubt that the SJWs are giving them an easy time right now.

Anonymous WaterBoy April 03, 2015 9:21 AM  

CHORF = Cliquish, Holier-than-thou, Obnoxious, Reactionary, Fanatics

Anonymous jack April 03, 2015 9:22 AM  

What the heck is SMOF? I must have missed the memo.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 April 03, 2015 9:27 AM  

To Glory!

Blogger MidKnight April 03, 2015 9:36 AM  

Secret Master of Fandom

Anonymous Rolf April 03, 2015 9:40 AM  

Swiftfoxmark2 - yes, yes indeed. and to that add Strength of a thousand men.

So the finalists of the ballots are announced tomorrow (Saturday). When are the winners announced? At the convention in Spokane so as to entice lots of people there with no chance of winning (which I suspect), or well before, so winner and non-winners can plan accordingly and not waste the gas to go if there's nothing there for them? Spokane is only four hours away...

Anonymous Jeanne April 03, 2015 9:40 AM  

Worldcon can't be displeased by the increase in supporting memberships over the last 2 years. It costs money to put on a convention after all. But I'm sure the SJW's will start bringing serious pressure on the committee to change the rules for nominating.

Looking forward to seeing who got the nod tomorrow. I love the Dresden Files and seriously hope Butcher gets a nomination. Although, he may be the kind to turn it down. From what I understand, he dislikes the drama that goes along with SFWA and the like.

Anonymous Ridip April 03, 2015 9:50 AM  

CHORFs - Christs on a rabbit farm

These morons really think they are the gods of rabbitdom.

Anonymous WaterBoy April 03, 2015 9:51 AM  

I like how Davidson -- linked in the linked article -- is promoting his own slate of one (No Award), and encouraging everybody else to vote the same way, because offering a slate and encouraging everybody to vote the same way is wrong.

Talk about missing the forest for the trees....

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis April 03, 2015 9:52 AM  

So when do the SJWs start trying to doctor the results?

Anonymous Salt April 03, 2015 10:25 AM  

so they began asking around

Who they gonna ask? Not Sasquan. Tomorrow's going to be lots of fun.

Blogger Cataline Sergius April 03, 2015 10:42 AM  

So when do the SJWs start trying to doctor the results?

They are already hard at it. It's called disqualification. Anything from the Sad Puppies slate automatically lacks authenticity.

I have to give Brad some credit here. There are people on the Sad Puppies slate that the SJWs of WorldCon can't quite bring themselves to disqualify. And in fact prior to 1977 those authors would have been nominated as a matter of course.

Anonymous Gecko April 03, 2015 10:53 AM  

The SJWs are upset because we play openly by the rules better than they cheat behind closed doors.

Wait, you mean George R. R. Martin was wrong about the idea that the bad guys always have the advantage because they ignore the rules? Unpossible!

Anonymous BigGaySteve April 03, 2015 11:08 AM  

"by shady secret societies."

Does there need to be a living embodiment of evil greater than George "the nation destroyer" Soros & his vampire squid network? All of his dark tentacles in the mortal form of organizations employ people as cheerleaders to the apocalypse. Cthulhu would be easier to eradicate than the dark mark Soros leaves on civilization.

Blogger lubertdas April 03, 2015 11:10 AM  

For those of you unfamiliar with the Gamma Male Victory Dance, here is an example of it demonstrated by one of it's leaders, Chris Hayes of MSNBC. Get your barf bags ready:

https://vine.co/v/O32Q11B5Irg

Blogger lubertdas April 03, 2015 11:16 AM  

Rolf's comment reminded me of an old song that I'd like to nominate as the Sad Puppies/Rabid Puppies theme song: Tenpole Tudor's Swords of a Thousand Men

https://youtu.be/5AywIL5_eYM

Blogger Mark April 03, 2015 11:16 AM  

CHORF was recently created by Brad Torgersen to be an unambiguous negative, once some people said that SMOF had some positive connotations. CHORF sounds so much more like my image of the people it describes.

Anonymous pseudotsuga April 03, 2015 12:50 PM  

CHORF sounds like what you do after you have eaten too many bowls of SMOF.

Anonymous Scintan April 03, 2015 12:59 PM  


"There’s only one way to deal with people like Day, who see themselves as above basic human decency, and that is to cut them out of the community like a tumour. Shun them, ignore them, no-platform the hell out of them. Our conventions, our fanzines, our anthologies, our community is not open to people whose racist arguments could have come straight from the mouths of slave-owners." (April 19, 2014)
"How do you bring the weight of community disapproval on someone who isn't part of the community?" (March 30, 2015)


In situations where they cannot use the force of government to back their play, the leftists haven't yet figured out how to deal with people that that don't care about being othered. The idea that someone might truly not give a shit about exclusion is simply too foreign to them.

It is, potentially, a fatal flaw.

Anonymous Scintan April 03, 2015 1:02 PM  

Wait, you mean George R. R. Martin was wrong about the idea that the bad guys always have the advantage because they ignore the rules?

George wasn't wrong. However, having an advantage doesn't guarantee success. One can look to the spineless members of the Indiana Republican party for certain proof of that.

Blogger Anthony April 03, 2015 1:39 PM  

whereas PNH states quite clearly that while he knows two non-SP Best Novel nominees, he doesn't know the other three. That means he has his information from the whispering campaign, not a leak from inside.

My guess is that Tor has two Best Novel nominees, so PNH, who still works at Tor, would know that much. He's merely assuming that the other three nominees are Sad Puppies, though he may have asked or heard from other publishers (or authors) that they did *not* get the call.

Anonymous Nathan April 03, 2015 2:00 PM  

So Three Body Problem and either Words of Radiance or Lock In? And likely a year of PNH sitting on the bench for Best Editor?

Blogger Vox April 03, 2015 2:59 PM  

Not Words of Radiance or Lock In. Annihilation, Ancillary Sword, Goblin Emperor, and The Three-Body Problem are the four most likely for the two slots, in that order from what I observe. I hope the latter makes it, but it's unlikely.

Blogger James Dixon April 03, 2015 5:50 PM  

Remember last year when I said you all were having too much fun with this. Well, this year the amount of fun has been just about right. Keep up the good work.

Blogger MidKnight April 03, 2015 6:03 PM  

Words of Radiance is not bad, and rewards the read, even with some eye-rolling in how male/female roles and characters are portrayed.

Not interested in Sword or Emperor, haven't heard of Annihilation, and will take time to read Three-Body based on recommendations around here.

I'm looking forward to hearing who made it.

Anonymous Nathan April 03, 2015 6:33 PM  

So, adding to the "How Do They Know..." From the comments of:

http://www.teleread.com/award/sad-puppies-sad-gits/?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

“Zora says:
April 3, 2015 at 3:02 pm
Goblin Emperor is one of the novel nominees. I loved it so much I read it four times. Had I the money to vote, I would have voted for it.”

Now, it might be a rumor, but isn't this sort of leak what Mad Mike is taking flak over?

Blogger Vox April 03, 2015 7:28 PM  

Good find. I tweeted it. Pity, I was hoping for The Three-Body Problem.

Blogger J Van Stry April 03, 2015 10:35 PM  

The part that is the most hysterical of all of this is, quite simply, if the SJW's had the wit and cunning, that they claim, they would have welcomed Sad Puppies, praised everyone for getting more of the fandom involved, and simply got ahead of the whole thing.
I year or two later and they would have gotten their power back.

But they couldn't. They just hate too much.

So now they've given away the game, and we all know that they have been quietly fixing the vote for years.

OpenID thule222 April 04, 2015 1:26 AM  

These numbers look like the Tor block normally runs about 40-50 voters, and when they sound battle stations they can jump it up to 120.

Post a Comment

Rules of the blog
Please do not comment as "Anonymous". Comments by "Anonymous" will be spammed.

<< Home

Newer Posts Older Posts