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Tuesday, April 21, 2015

Mailvox: the racism lens

It's always fascinating how some people have an amazing ability to detect racism no matter how clearly the absence of racism by literally every definition is explained to them. From a discussion on Eric Flint's blog:
I may as well go all-in here: In comments above Vox Day has repeatedly been called a “racist,” perhaps dozens of times. Have any of you ASKED him what his position is on racial differences? Have any of you READ what he has to say about racial differences? No? Then those of you who call him “racist” are simply a mob. In an attempt to educate, here is what Mr. Day wrote recently in a comment on Brad Torgersen’s blog; it was in response to the following statement by someone else (not Brad): “Vox Day believes that white people and Asians (and clearly Hispanics, since Beale is one, at least in part) are superior to black people, and he believes this inferiority of blacks is innate, genetic.”

Here is what Mr. Day wrote in response:

“Correction: I don’t have any reason to believe any one human population sub-group is intrinsically superior to any other population sub-group. That being said, both science and logic quite clearly indicate that no two population sub-groups are identical, and therefore every population sub-group is either superior or inferior to another sub-group on the basis of any chosen metric.
“It makes no more difference that you like or dislike this fact than if you disapprove of the speed of light or the rate of Earth gravity.
“I assert that an unborn female black child with a missing chromosome and an inclination to homosexuality is equal in human value and human dignity and unalienable, God-given rights to a straight white male in the prime of his life and a +4 SD IQ. How many of my dishonest critics will do the same?
“That doesn’t mean that I think it is wise to ask that particular child, when she is grown, to design the next plane on which I intend to fly. Or even to work in the air traffic control tower.
“I deal in reality as determined by history, science, and logic. And I care no more about what an equalitarian fantasist thinks about me or anything else than I do about the mentally deranged babbling in the psych ward. The world is as it is, not as we might wish it to be. If you can’t understand that, then I am among the least of your problems.”

So query: Do the above statements validate the multiple assertions above that Mr. Day is a “racist”? (Disclaimer: I’ve never met the man, nor talked to him; I have exchanged perhaps a couple of emails when I challenged a statement he made. But I do despise mindless online mobs screaming “racist!”)
Reply

    Gav says:
    April 21, 2015 at 10:39 AM

    A moment’s thought shows that his premise is completely ridiculous. Choose people A, B, C such that A & C are from one group and B from another, but A is taller than B is taller than C. So now I’ve got a metric (height) where group 1 is both superior and inferior to group 2 on the height metric. (For a real-life example, choose Robert Wadlow and his father for A & C, and Michael Jordan for B).

    You have to be not only racist but also stupid to believe that “every population sub-group is either superior or inferior to another sub-group on the basis of any chosen metric.”
 
        Mike says:
        April 21, 2015 at 12:21 PM

        This is a result of false equivocation between individuals and categories. Yes, the mean of the heights of all adult men if taller than the mean of the heights of all adult women, but that doesn’t mean all men are taller than all women.

        It ends up being a big problem in the scientific study of people. Some people have political/personal reasons to try to see one group as better than another, while other people have similar reasons to try to see no groups as being any different from each other. Both camps accuse the other side of being unscientific and ignoring the data.

        Really there is no conflict between the idea that one group may, on average, have a measurable difference than another group, and also the idea that the variance of individuals withing the groups may be much larger than the difference between the groups. But due to confirmation bias, people tend to ignore whatever part of that equation it is convenient for them to ignore.
        Reply
            Eric Flint says:
            April 21, 2015 at 12:33 PM

            The problem goes deeper than that, because there’s an intrinsic bias in the categories someone chooses in the first place. For instance, if you choose to compare “the race of whites” to “the race of blacks” you are assuming not only that such races exist but that they are the proper basis for comparison. But why should that be true? Due to the way the human race evolved, there is more genetic variation among Africans than there is between any given group of Africans and any non-African segment of humanity. The reason people think all Africans belong to the same “race” is because they share certain literally superficial features: skin color, hair and some facial features. But why should those criteria be used as the basis to define a “race” in the first place? Why not, for instance, choose the average distribution of blood types? In which case you wind up with a “racial map” of humanity that is completely different from a “racial map” drawn according to skin color, hair and facial features.

            My point is that there is an inherent bias in the way the question is posed in the first place, which makes any answer to the question automatically questionable. What defines a “racist” in the first place, intellectually speaking, is the firm conviction that “races” as defined sociologically have an actual biological reality which is more basic than any other possible differentiation. For which there is not a shred of actual evidence. It is a faith-based conviction. That’s a polite say of saying it’s just bigotry.
            Reply
                Mike says:
                April 21, 2015 at 1:59 PM

                Yes, I agree. There very definitely are biological races, if you define that as subsets of the overall human gene pool where certain collections of genes are much more prevalent than they are in the general population. But there is so much nonsense and xenophobia and misunderstanding involved that it’s a real nightmare to try to approach these questions without stepping on any land mines.

                I recommend a really interesting book called “The Sports Gene” that gives some great examples of how this can be done properly (IMO), and also some examples of where it has been done very much improperly.
                Reply
                    335522 says:
                    April 21, 2015 at 2:13 PM

                    With all due respect to all of you, I believe you’re missing the point. Please read the third paragraph by Vox Day that begins “I assert that an unborn female black child….” And then answer the question that I posed at the end, please (it being notable that not one of the responses addresses it).
The following quote from that exchange is an astonishing assertion that clearly demonstrates both the intellectual inferiority as well as the logical incapacity of the SJWs:

"You have to be not only racist but also stupid to believe that “every population sub-group is either superior or inferior to another sub-group on the basis of any chosen metric."

Quite to the contrary, you have to be utterly stupid and wholly irrational to deny that assertion, or else possess hitherto-unknown evidence demonstrating that every human population sub-group is absolutely and entirely equal across the board. Every single group has an average, a mean, and a median, regardless of the metric chosen. None of those three statistics are likely to be precisely equal to the average, the mean, and the media of any other group.

At no point have I EVER claimed, suggested, implied, hinted, or intimated that EVERY SINGLE MEMBER of one human population group is superior to EVERY SINGLE MEMBER of another one. And anyone who claims that I ever have is either lying or simply too dim to bother even attempting to talk down to.

The idea that "races" don't exist is simply antiscientific dogma. They might as well deny that "species" and "groups" exist while they're at it.

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216 Comments:

1 – 200 of 216 Newer› Newest»
Blogger Dominic Saltarelli April 21, 2015 5:11 PM  

They might as well deny that "species" and "groups" exist while they're at it.

sounds familiar, actually

Blogger Mr.MantraMan April 21, 2015 5:16 PM  

The Left is abandoning "anti-racism", that evidence is piling up everyday. You can take any of their racial theorizing and shove it right back in their face.

My point being "racist" is losing its political utility, even the Right will figure that out.

Don't you conservatives listen to what they are saying?

Anonymous ostar April 21, 2015 5:17 PM  

They define themselves by the group they belong to, which includes race - they are not individuals. So group differences of even their "allies" cannot be acknowledged, because it could lead to bad thoughts about the groups they belong to being "inferior".

Anonymous fish April 21, 2015 5:20 PM  

My point being "racist" is losing its political utility, even the Right will figure that out.


That's why "privilege" is the trump currently in favor.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 April 21, 2015 5:23 PM  

It is funny how ideologues cannot reconcile simple ideas that contradict their own beliefs.

People like that are dangerous in power. Make sure you do not vote for them, hire them, or promote them. You're asking for trouble.

Anonymous Stilicho April 21, 2015 5:24 PM  

either lying or simply too dim to bother even attempting to talk down to

Those aren't mutually exclusive.

The idea that "races" don't exist is simply antiscientific dogma. They might as well deny that "species" and "groups" exist while they're at it.

The same people certainly claim that race and ethnic groups exist when they want to obtain handouts on the basis of race and ethnic group membership.

Anonymous Scintan April 21, 2015 5:25 PM  

"Race doesn't exist!"

Which must be why they claim racism, defend affirmative action, and demand diversity.

Anonymous MrGreenMan April 21, 2015 5:25 PM  

These are the idiots Allstate targets with the ad where the mouthy girl says to her boyfriend, "So, you say men are superior drivers - why did I receive a good driving check?"

They are such incredibly stupid binary thinkers that they are themselves incapable of seeing the nuance they claim to see. Marines are better than the average man at kicking a drunk hayseed's but at a Lynyrd Skynyrd concert does not mean that a Marine with one arm missing and an artificial leg who took some shrapnel to the brain is going to succeed at this task, nor is it implied by the language except by the extremely socially retarded duplicitous liars of the SJW movement.

Blogger CM April 21, 2015 5:26 PM  

For instance, if you choose to compare “the race of whites” to “the race of blacks” you are assuming not only that such races exist but that they are the proper basis for comparison. But why should that be true? Due to the way the human race evolved, there is more genetic variation among Africans than there is between any given group of Africans and any non-African segment of humanity.

And yet a VERY OBVIOUS metric that all black africans are superior to white people in is melanin production - which makes them superior in how much sun they can endure and resistance to uv-related melanomas.

While making them inferior in how efficiently they absorb vitamin D.

Ironic.

Anonymous indpndnt April 21, 2015 5:27 PM  

I have been complaining for a long time that many people, the left especially, have a very hard time separating the normative and the positive.

Christianity is one of the few systems of thought that makes that distinction with respect to humans. Much given, much expected for example.

All these supposed super rational and i fucking love science types should absolutely be able to tell the difference. That they don't or won't is highly informative.

Anonymous sawtooth April 21, 2015 5:28 PM  

I once saw a girl beat up a boy. I once saw a cat chase a dog.

So stop that generalizing and categorizing!

Oh look, it's snowing out!

Wow, so many unique flakes out there!

Blogger jay c April 21, 2015 5:31 PM  

SJWs apparently are incapable of reading a dictionary.

1. a group of persons related by common descent or heredity.

If races don't exist, neither do parents, dna, or evolution.

Blogger CM April 21, 2015 5:32 PM  

Wow, so many unique flakes out there!

They all look the same to me.

Anonymous MrGreenMan April 21, 2015 5:36 PM  

I truly despise the sophistry that masquerades as wisdom that is the hoary old chestnut: "There's more difference between group members than between members of different groups!"

Clearly, if the metric were penis girth, and the two groups are boys and girls, this is not going to be true. If the metric is W-2 income and the comparison groups are the self-employed, employees, and the unemployed, this is not going to be true.

They are too stupid to ever imagine: You're doing it wrong if you believe that. Invert your groups or negate your metric.

Further, they are so stupid as to realize - their call for different groups does not question the idea that people can, indeed, categorize. It is not a refutation of a particular decision tree to say you could have made a different one. In fact, if you go shopping on Amazon or other e-commerce sites, they are more than happy to let you slice and dice across a large number of orthogonal ways of grouping.

I can't stand the ramblings of lunatics who want to pretend they are smart because they've followed NdT and they watched some TED talks and the God they don't believe in should be a kind god, a loving god, a god that does what they want.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan April 21, 2015 5:37 PM  

Here is what the Left is saying at Huffpo an attempt at humor I hear but probably would be illegal in many countries if you substituted white with some other race.

The top of the Left organization has given up on "anti-racism" any idiot SJW telling you race doesn't exist is a low end peon with an old script. IMO the video "Anti-racist Hitler" put one in the back of the head of anti-racism and now the left is explicitly becoming anti-white.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TMrJDHu_TU&feature=player_embedded

Anonymous MrGreenMan April 21, 2015 5:38 PM  

@jay c

I lost all respect for a well-known black Baptist preacher when I read one of his brilliant essays on race. He explained that race doesn't exist; ethnicity does. So, it's OK per him to say that Italians are hot-tempered, Spaniards are lazy, Nigerians are dumb, Zulu are warlike, Chinese are clever, Koreans are diligent - but the moment you try to cluster those ethnicities, you have crossed into badthink, because he had badfeels over it.

Blogger pyrrhus April 21, 2015 5:38 PM  

These people are hopeless morons, including many with PhD after their names...

Anonymous bethyada April 21, 2015 5:39 PM  

If you choose the metric of skin tone or eye colour or hair colour then the claim that races differ in their means should be obvious.

What is probably more important is not the absolute differences in means but how the difference compares with the variation within the groups. I believe coefficient of variation would be the appropriate statistic.

As to iq I think it likely this is very complicated genetically. Thus less likely to distribute between groups with much significant difference. I ascribe most of the differences observed to cultural and educational differences between groups.

This can be tested by looking at difference s between groups that share gentian but not culture or education. Our changes in a group over short time frames , say 100 years.

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus April 21, 2015 5:41 PM  

As Steve Sailor has pointed out every four years, the Olympics are all it takes to prove the egalitarians wrong.

Anonymous Curious April 21, 2015 5:43 PM  

Can't seem to find Eric's blog with that posting ... some search engines simply point back to this posting.

Anonymous PhillipS April 21, 2015 5:45 PM  

"“That doesn’t mean that I think it is wise to ask that particular child, when she is grown, to design the next plane on which I intend to fly. Or even to work in the air traffic control tower."

You forgot to mention that in your mind this child should not be allowed to vote then they grow up, that you believe they will ruin everything when they grow up and that for the good of the community, they ought not be given an education.

Anonymous BGS April 21, 2015 5:47 PM  

"If races don't exist, neither do parents, dna, or evolution."

Well a lot of leftists don't have parents, only one. Evolution stopped at the neck in humans

hoary old chestnut: "There's more difference between group members than between members of different groups!"

So if there where 2 teams both with a wide range of skills they would bet against the one that scores +2SD higher than the other

Anonymous jack April 21, 2015 5:48 PM  

The one idea that you can take to the bank; that even the SJW crowd can agree to is that to discuss any of this is walking through a field of land mines. Its usually not worth the trouble as I found out with one set of my relatives that are super liberal. They were not interested in facts and logic. Typical.

Blogger Bard April 21, 2015 5:49 PM  

If race doesn't exist, why is there a black history month?

Blogger Noah B April 21, 2015 5:53 PM  

I do envy you, Vox. You make it seem as though you simply present your bayonet, and the enemy lunges excitedly to impale himself upon it.

Blogger Danby April 21, 2015 5:53 PM  

So...
If races don't exist, am I still evil for being white?
If gender is a social construct, am I still evil for being male?

Anonymous BGS April 21, 2015 5:53 PM  

"You forgot to mention that in your mind this child should not be allowed to vote then they grow up,"

Here we have the advocate for downs syndrome kids voting, hey the dead don't need to be able to spell the candidates name so why should they need to.

Anonymous Frank Brady April 21, 2015 5:54 PM  

My God, Vox! Why even bother with these people? They are far too stupid to merit the amount of your time that responding to their idiocy consumes, IMHO.

Blogger Bard April 21, 2015 5:55 PM  

Shouldn't it be just "history month"

Blogger Noah B April 21, 2015 5:56 PM  

Yes, Danby. Double extra evil for even daring to ask.

Anonymous Steve April 21, 2015 5:56 PM  

there is more genetic variation among Africans than there is between any given group of Africans and any non-African segment of humanity

True, but meaningless. There is more genetic variation among men as a whole than there is between any given group of men and women. Therefore... the sexes don't exist? That logic will get you arrested the first time you try taking a shit in the ladies room.

Chihuahuas and German Shepherds are both members of the same species, yet Chihuahuas rarely get trained as police dogs. Perhaps bigotry is to blame.

Anyway, I don't think Mr Flint is an idiot, it's just safer to not get the point if you're talking about race. Ask James Watson. Ergo the studied ignorance of statements like the quote above. It's sort of like how people in Soviet Russia quickly learned not to publicly notice that Marxist-Leninism didn't actually work.

But if race doesn't exist, how come everybody acts as if it does? Revealed preferences are indeed revealing.

Blogger Bard April 21, 2015 5:57 PM  

How the fuck can diversity be a virtue if there is no recognizable diversity? I shall now celebrate "all colors are the same history month".

Anonymous DT April 21, 2015 5:58 PM  

God I love watching Vox debate people. Vox works in debate 'the way other artists might work in oils or clay. It is his true medium; a master.'

I assert that an unborn female black child with a missing chromosome and an inclination to homosexuality is equal in human value and human dignity and unalienable, God-given rights to a straight white male in the prime of his life and a +4 SD IQ. How many of my dishonest critics will do the same?

FTFW

Blogger thimscool April 21, 2015 5:58 PM  

Vox, do you think that the USA has a responsibility to the descendents of slaves and the native american tribes that we displaced?

If so, how do we appropriately handle that responsibility and make reparations?

If not, is that because you feel that reparations have already been made, or do you deny that reparations for slavery and manifest destiny are necessary or appropriate?

Anonymous neal April 21, 2015 6:02 PM  

Here's the thing. You are only human, and from certain points of view, there is no difference amongst the worst and the best of you.
Those metrics do not apply, in the long run.
I do not make the damned rules. I just have been around for awhile.

Way too angry. Very human. I wish sometimes proving some damned point of opinion slowed things down enough to catch more what is held in common. Sound and fury, no opinion.
Just that you are mortal. Maybe see that long term is curved.

Anonymous Steve April 21, 2015 6:04 PM  

Thimscool - do you think that the USA has a responsibility to the descendents of slaves and the native american tribes that we displaced?

If so, how do we appropriately handle that responsibility and make reparations?


You should start by giving Vox a Hugo award. Anybody who doesn't vote for Vox is a bigot and a racist, no different from the people who gave firewater and smallpox blankets to Vox's noble forebears.

Blogger CM April 21, 2015 6:05 PM  

"all colors are the same history month".

Hold on... we're not the color of mud, yet... almost...

Blogger Shimshon April 21, 2015 6:05 PM  

Frank, I believe Vox is talking past these idiots to others who can be persuaded. It is useful to continue to raising the point of how evil and incoherent they are for that purpose.

Anonymous Harsh April 21, 2015 6:08 PM  

Those SJWs sure love to argue word definitions instead of dealing with the actual argument. It's kind of a fascinating mania they have.

Anonymous DT April 21, 2015 6:08 PM  

there is more genetic variation among Africans than there is between any given group of Africans and any non-African segment of humanity

True, but meaningless. There is more genetic variation among men as a whole than there is between any given group of men and women. Therefore... the sexes don't exist?


Exactly. "Genetic variation" only quantifies the raw statistical difference between genomes. It does not quantify the real difference in outcome. In this respect it's sort of like making an argument about program complexity or programmer productivity based on "lines of code."

That logic will get you arrested the first time you try taking a shit in the ladies room.

Not in a California public high school. Here in the People's Republic that logic is law and you can go to jail for denying someone's equality thereby causing FeelBad.

Blogger wrf3 April 21, 2015 6:11 PM  

Just going to leave this here: Nigel Short says men 'hardwired' to be better chess players than women.

Blogger Salt April 21, 2015 6:16 PM  

Where to even begin dealing with these people? I'd sooner want to deal with a great white shark. At least it's being honest.

Blogger IM2L844 April 21, 2015 6:17 PM  

This is profoundly simple. Any persons who possess an attribute or combinations of attributes, whatever they might be, that provide advantages with respect to particular circumstances are, by necessity, inherently superior to those who don't possess those same attributes with respect to those same circumstances. There is nothing bigoted about recognizing that fact or pointing it out.

Anonymous Soga April 21, 2015 6:17 PM  

PhillipS:
"You forgot to mention that in your mind this child should not be allowed to vote then they grow up, that you believe they will ruin everything when they grow up and that for the good of the community, they ought not be given an education."

So, PhillipS, assuming you're not parodying (Poe's Law, after all), do you believe that children with Down Syndrome should have suffrage?

Blogger JaimeInTexas April 21, 2015 6:24 PM  

thimscool:

Good grief! Anyone seen the prices of tea in China recently?

Anonymous MendoScot April 21, 2015 6:26 PM  

You forgot to mention that in your mind this child should not be allowed to vote then they grow up, that you believe they will ruin everything when they grow up and that for the good of the community, they ought not be given an education.

Voting is a God-given right?

You think them capable of ruining everything?

You would deny children education?

Truly, Dr. Who has rotted your mind.

Anonymous Red Comet April 21, 2015 6:27 PM  

SJWs and race denialers are fit to either be ignored or mocked if you're bored. Their disconnect with reality is obvious to anyone paying attention, much less people who have looked into IQ, crime, earnings, and other statistics.

They won't change their minds. They might not even change their minds when the economy tanks even more and they are forced to send their kid to get "culturally enriched" in a public school by the Third World's finest.

In the meantime, like always, use their ignorance against them.

You see your neighborhood filling up with statistically likely criminals then be the first to move before your lib neighbors and get full value for your house.

You see hipster types flocking to an urban neighborhood then consider buying cheap property and reaping the Rush Limbaugh style obscene profits from the coming gentrification.

Blogger JaimeInTexas April 21, 2015 6:27 PM  

thimscool: Why stop with those people. What about Hawaiians, Filipino, Puertorricans, and all other beneficiaries of the Walk Softly and Carry a Big Stick diplomacy. What about to the Japan because of Gunboat diplomacy.

Blogger Danby April 21, 2015 6:29 PM  

@Thimscool
"Vox, do you think that the USA has a responsibility to the descendents of slaves and the native american tribes that we displaced? "

This is so incredibly funny. You do know that Vox is an Indian, right? That he is largely Native American in descent, with some Native Mexican descent?
So you can start by writing him a check. Not that he really needs the money, but on the principle of the thing. And tell him you're sorry you're a racist.

Anonymous Scintan April 21, 2015 6:29 PM  

You forgot to mention that in your mind this child should not be allowed to vote then they grow up, that you believe they will ruin everything when they grow up and that for the good of the community, they ought not be given an education.

You get headaches when you actually try to think, don't you?

Blogger Chiva April 21, 2015 6:31 PM  

"reparations for slavery"

When the Muslim slavers of Tripoli pay my white Anglo-Saxon family reparations for enslaving a few of my ancestors......

Blogger Danby April 21, 2015 6:31 PM  

@Salt
"Where to even begin dealing with these people? I'd sooner want to deal with a great white shark. At least it's being honest. "

And you can just shoot a shark in the face.
IN THE FACE!

Anonymous p-dawg April 21, 2015 6:31 PM  

@thimscool: If your grandfather stole $20,000 from my grandfather, how much do you owe me, and why?

Blogger Noah B April 21, 2015 6:37 PM  

What race are you p-dawg? He has to know so he can be sure not to discriminate

Anonymous Giuseppe April 21, 2015 6:37 PM  

Vox,
thanks for explaining your position clearly and succinctly. It's a good reference to have to point the SJWs to. Not because they will read it, but as a kind of mirrored shield for the Gorgon. Sort of a "fire and forget" link.

Blogger Vox April 21, 2015 6:38 PM  

Vox, do you think that the USA has a responsibility to the descendents of slaves and the native american tribes that we displaced? If so, how do we appropriately handle that responsibility and make reparations?

Absolutely. Give every Native American the equivalent of ten million dollars in gold bullion.

Blogger Noah B April 21, 2015 6:40 PM  

A clever plan to flash crash the dollar

Blogger thimscool April 21, 2015 6:42 PM  

In 2033 dollars, when we settle the matter, it may not be worth much.

Anonymous PhillipS April 21, 2015 6:43 PM  

"So, PhillipS, assuming you're not parodying (Poe's Law, after all), do you believe that children with Down Syndrome should have suffrage?"

No.

Blogger Cataline Sergius April 21, 2015 6:46 PM  

Absolutely. Give every Native American the equivalent of ten million dollars in gold bullion.

Speaking as a man who has suffered the pain and stigma of Homo-Neanderthalensian (according to my gene scan its the only thing I've got going for me) prejudice and persecution I feel that my compensation and reparation should be in the amount of...

Blogger CM April 21, 2015 6:47 PM  

PhillipS. -> Ablist

Blogger Scott Rassbach April 21, 2015 6:48 PM  

Absolutely. Give every Native American the equivalent of ten million dollars in gold bullion.

That's 52 quadrillion dollars, for those who want the math.

Anonymous p-dawg April 21, 2015 6:50 PM  

@Noah B: My race is Human. I self-identify as an 89-year-old Aleutian woman. Hope that helps!

Blogger Scott Rassbach April 21, 2015 6:50 PM  

Or 2,701,467,104 lbs of gold, at current prices.

Blogger Noah B April 21, 2015 6:51 PM  

"That's 52 quadrillion dollars, for those who want the math."

Tough break, Vox. Do you like beads?

Blogger John Cunningham April 21, 2015 6:51 PM  

Steve Sailer, a race realist, gave a good definition of race--a race is a large, somewhat inbred, extended family.

Blogger thimscool April 21, 2015 6:53 PM  

@thimscool: If your grandfather stole $20,000 from my grandfather, how much do you owe me, and why?

Nothing, if nothing has been done about it. Statute of limitations.

What is the statute of limitations on slavery? This was an institution that we both agree was wrong, and it left in it's wake a minority subculture with no roots, few strong leaders, and a hostile host society that they were conscripted into. That's bound to leave a mark.

Do we not, as a society have a responsibility to deal with the wreckage we wrought? And if the current approach isn't working, then can we do better? Or should we just say, "Oops! Well that won't happen again because we're more enlightened now."

Blogger Salt April 21, 2015 6:55 PM  

Hey, my Irish ancestors have been shit upon everywhere. Where's mine?

Anonymous Steve April 21, 2015 6:56 PM  

Red Comet - SJW's generally aren't ignorant of race. They just say they are. It's hypocrisy, not stupidity. Hypocrisy isn't admirable, but it is very human. A combination of go-along-to-get-along, social wheel-greasing, and competitive altruism. It's a racket that's older than the Pharisees. But brutal, soul-searing honesty is more alien to the average human than fluffy goodthink.

Look at what people do, not what they say. Not many SJW's try to open feminist bookshops in, say, Detroit.

Or look at fertility clinics. People who demand the services of sperm donors tend to be SWPL's, and what sort of genetic material do SWPL's choose to fertilise their frozen eggs with? There's a reason why tiny Denmark is perhaps the world's biggest exporter of sperm, but Djibouti couldn't give the stuff away if they tried.

Liberals tend to be afraid of realtalk on race because of ostracism and guilt. But race is real, and that's OK. It's fine. Acknowledging the fact openly doesn't mean one has to wear pointy hoods and be a dick to black people.

Piously lying about race for the past fifty or so years doesn't seem to have helped race relations too much, quite the opposite. If people are prejudiced it's better for all concerned that prejudice is out in the open, rather than hidden behind fake smiles and platitudes. That just destroys trust.

DT - Not in a California public high school. Here in the People's Republic that logic is law and you can go to jail for denying someone's equality thereby causing FeelBad.

Seriously? Where are Californian schoolchildren supposed to smoke in peace?

Blogger thimscool April 21, 2015 6:56 PM  

We spent your share on the F35, Salt. Sorry about that.

Blogger Salt April 21, 2015 6:59 PM  

Do we not, as a society have a responsibility to deal with the wreckage we wrought?

Who's this we you speak of? And before I'll discuss it with you, have you sent me a check for all the crap my Irish ansctors put up with? My claim predates yours by a mile.

Anonymous jon April 21, 2015 7:00 PM  

"an average, a mean, and a median"

I think you meant to say mean, median and mode. Average is just the non-technical term for mean.

Anonymous Steve April 21, 2015 7:02 PM  

You ungrateful colonials should repay Britain for the unlawful rebellion against your rightful sovereign, King George, and the war crimes your founding fathers perpetrated on our peaceful redcoats.

Gold would ease our pain and suffering, but we'll settle for you not sending us any more of those stupid Kardashian shows.

Anonymous MrGreenMan April 21, 2015 7:03 PM  

Ben Affleck better start passing out checks.

Blogger thimscool April 21, 2015 7:05 PM  

Who's this we you speak of?

You're already discussing it with me, Salt. We is the citizens of the USA.

How did the US government pay for the Louisiana Purchase?

Blogger Salt April 21, 2015 7:07 PM  

Ungrateful colonials? [laugh] Hell, we've maintained your Empire for you since you abdicated it. Now, shall we talk costs?

Blogger thimscool April 21, 2015 7:07 PM  

As for the Irish American issue, Salt... are you a descendant of an Irish slave? If not you'll want to take it up with Steve.

Blogger Salt April 21, 2015 7:09 PM  

How did the US government pay for the Louisiana Purchase?

Probably with the check I assume you put in the mail to me. Asset confiscation.

Blogger thimscool April 21, 2015 7:10 PM  

Tariffs, Salt.

On what?

Blogger Noah B April 21, 2015 7:10 PM  

My ancestors were halting the Mongol advance into Europe while most of yours were sitting around drinking mead. Where's my check?

Anonymous DavidKathome April 21, 2015 7:13 PM  

I have a question. Among the many claims I keep reading is that the pen name Vox Day is Vox claiming to speak for God. While it is a play off Vox Dei it isn't Dei. Day I assume is English because Day is not a Latin or Italian word as far as I know. So it is just Voice of the Day which means whatever Vox happens to want to pontificate on in his blog on any given day. Am I right or completely wrong here?

Anonymous Clyde April 21, 2015 7:13 PM  

"The reason people think all Africans belong to the same “race” is because they share certain literally superficial features: skin color, hair and some facial features. But why should those criteria be used as the basis to define a “race” in the first place? Why not, for instance, choose the average distribution of blood types?"

Response:
The races are not designated based on skin color or facial features. If they were, Australian Aborigines and Southern Indians would be grouped with sub-Saharan Africans. Races are based on ancestry and historic separation of populations. These populations are known to have been separated for at least 35,000 years (probably much longer), during which time there was very little to no (most likely no) admixture. This separation resulted in clusters of gene frequencies that resulted in the physical characteristics and any other differences we observe, as well as at least a handful of alleles that only exist in one racial group or another.

Blogger Danby April 21, 2015 7:13 PM  

Thimscool.
My great grandfather and his brother never owned slaves, and never lived in the South. They both gave 4 years of their lives, and my great-grandfather gave his right leg, to free the slaves.

Now ... what do Black people owe me?

On the other side, my family spent the 5000 years preceding the Civil War on the Isle of Jersey. What is their debt to lack people.

Or does my skin color make me guilty?

How much does Back Obama owe to Black people? His ancestors, after all, like a fair number of Southern Blacks, were actual slave owners.

Blogger Daniel April 21, 2015 7:15 PM  

Stupid crackers.

Anonymous Steve April 21, 2015 7:15 PM  

Salt - Dunno what the Irish have to complain about.

We gave you potatoes, St. Patrick, and the English language.

All you people gave us in return was the Titanic, Bono, and Guinness.

Blogger Salt April 21, 2015 7:18 PM  

We're square, Steve.

Anonymous DT April 21, 2015 7:27 PM  

Danby April 21, 2015 6:31 PM - And you can just shoot a shark in the face. IN THE FACE!

Not when it has a frikin' laser attached to its head.

Vox April 21, 2015 6:38 PM - Absolutely. Give every Native American the equivalent of ten million dollars in gold bullion.

As someone with a significant fraction of Indian blood (that's feather, not dot), I fully support this solution to our oppression by imperialist whitey. I'll even accept a fraction of the award based on my percentage of Indian (feather != dot) heritage.

thimscool April 21, 2015 6:56 PM - We spent your share on the F35, Salt. Sorry about that.

Implying that thing only cost 52 quadrillion dollars...

OpenID cailcorishev April 21, 2015 7:28 PM  

These are the idiots Allstate targets with the ad where the mouthy girl says to her boyfriend, "So, you say men are superior drivers - why did I receive a good driving check?"

Man, that's annoying. There are so many good comebacks he could use:

"Better cash it fast before they catch their mistake."
"Have you heard he one about the blind squirrel?"
"Oh, you mean that marketing scheme? It's so cute that you think it means something."
Just stare at her until she stops yammering, then: "What? I wasn't paying attention."
"When will they be cutting the checks for superior cocksmanship? If you can get paid for your driving, I might be able to retire on that one."

Or he could forget the humor and go with: "Quiet now, eating." But no, he just sits there and lets her berate him as if he thinks he deserves it.

Blogger Noah B April 21, 2015 7:33 PM  

Also, "Bitch you better not be holding out on me."

Blogger Jim April 21, 2015 7:39 PM  

Do we not, as a society have a responsibility to deal with the wreckage we wrought?

750,000 people lost their lives in the US Civil War.

Now, I'm going to have to ask you to stop using the name of my people to describe what you call "an institution that we both agree was wrong, and it left in it's wake a minority subculture with no roots, few strong leaders, and a hostile host society that they were conscripted into." Just because you stole my ancestors and carted them around Europe does not mean you own their identity.

Anonymous Harsh April 21, 2015 7:44 PM  

Where to even begin dealing with these people? I'd sooner want to deal with a great white shark.

By any chance would that shark have a frickin laser on its head?

Blogger IM2L844 April 21, 2015 7:44 PM  

Stupid crackers.

It's only okay when white guys say it.

Anonymous Harsh April 21, 2015 7:48 PM  

Do we not, as a society have a responsibility to deal with the wreckage we wrought?

No because your premise is false. We did not do the "wrecking" as you put it, our ancestors did.

Blogger OldFan April 21, 2015 7:55 PM  

Do not make the mistake of thinking that "racist" has any other meaning in 99% of its usage than "I hate you because of your politics." Any attempt to have a substantive, fact-laden discussion on this topic with a socialist of any type is futile - it is a curse word for them and nothing more. Along with all of the other "-isms" in their armory, it is intended to make you slink away in shame as they deftly exile you from society.

Drive them crazy by refusing to acknowledge it as substantive. "Ah, I see you hate my politics. Is there anything rational that you would like to talk about, or are you just going to keep venting?"

Drive them even crazier by not getting emotionally worked up over it. " Oh, that again. You must be agonizing over your growing political impotence, since all I hear from you is inarticulate rage like this. Stop it before you bust a blood vessel."

If they try an indirect approach by speaking about the "deeply racist and sexist society of America" instead of accusing you of it, really get them really steamed by remarking: "After half a century of intense social engineering by the Best and Brightest? Oh well, at least you socialists have had the good grace to finally admit defeat. What now?

Never, never take the "r-word" at face value - you have already lost if you do.

Blogger thimscool April 21, 2015 7:55 PM  

Jim and Danby, I am not a fan of what you call "The Civil War" and what it did to our nation. The fact remains that the Federal government profited off of slavery before, during, and after the war.

Jim, I speak for myself and I'll speak how I want. I didn't "steal your identity". Sell it at the door.

Anonymous p-dawg April 21, 2015 7:56 PM  

@thimscool: "What is the statute of limitations on slavery?"

There is no statute of limitations on kidnapping. However, a statute of limitations is a time limit for prosecution of the perpetrator, not a metric of how "bad" the crime is. Is it your contention that Americans have perpetrated slavery? If not, what does the statute of limitations have to do with anything? If you don't owe me anything because of the crime your grandfather committed against my grandfather, why would anyone alive today owe anyone else alive today anything because of crimes committed before any current American was born? What is the purpose of criminal law? To just punish someone, anyone, if a crime is committed? Or to punish the perpetrator(s) of that crime? Your contention is that I owe someone else because of something that I did not do and that did not happen to them. It's ridiculous on its face, and really, I don't understand how anyone can even think "reparations" make any kind of sense. It's like punching out the first person you see at work the day after someone else insults you at a bar. The act and the response aren't in any way related. It just doesn't make sense.

Blogger Chris Mallory April 21, 2015 8:00 PM  

The red savages owe native white Americans for the mercy we showed in not exterminating them totally.

Blacks owe us for not following the lead of most Eastern nations and requiring that male slaves be made eunuchs before being imported.
Blacks also owe whites because if the cotton hadn't needed to be picked they would be sitting in the jungle eating a monkey right now.

Anonymous Fred on time April 21, 2015 8:04 PM  

Chris,
If not for blacks, the south would still be a backward, redneck-filled, degenerate civiliz.....wait......they stayed that way even with Blacks. Never mind.

Blogger ajw308 April 21, 2015 8:06 PM  

How much does Back Obama owe to Black people? His ancestors, after all, like a fair number of Southern Blacks, were actual slave owners.
Blacks owning blacks is Black Culture. All you have to do it look at Africa today to see that is still the case. Always has been, but you criticizing Black Culture? Man, that's racist talk there.

Anonymous Alexander April 21, 2015 8:06 PM  

Do we not, as a society have a responsibility to deal with the wreckage we wrought? And if the current approach isn't working, then can we do better? Or should we just say, "Oops! Well that won't happen again because we're more enlightened now."

A couple of concerns:
1. Over half of the black population in this country does not trace its ancestry in this country back to before 1860. Why on earth should anyone pay 'reparations' to a first-generation Somali who is only here in the first place on our sufferance?

2. Who pays these reparations? People who's ancestors owned slaves? People who are themselves immigrants post-1860? Do white immigrants have to pay but not Chinese? Do black immigrants pay? What about mixed-races, do they pay themselves?

3. Once you determine who is paying whom, please show me the people in this country that are materially worse off because of actions that happened to their great-great-great-great-grandaddy. Nobody today got forced to pick cotton. So unless you can find someone who would rather be running from lions/ebola/mad arabs from Nigeria to Sudan than living on the gimmedats (which if that's not race-based tribute... but I digress), I'd say the whole thing is moot.

4. But, let us suppose that you find yourself a black man who would be much better off had some other black man not sold his ancestor to a white man and carted him across the Atlantic. And let's say you find Mr. White whose ancestry on both sides of the family is filled with nothing but hatey Mchaterson slave owners who were well known for whipping their slaves because hatey hate hate hate hate...

You gonna go around demanding Turks leave Anatolia, and while they're at it leave all their property behind, to be distributed to Kurds, Armenians, and Greeks? China gonna pay up for its most impressive feat of Han Hegemony on a level that no European imperialist has ever come close to matching? We gonna seize every drop of oil as reparations for Barbary Pirates, and the mass of people in chains in Africa and the ME today? We gonna go and force the Mongolians to pay for thousands of years for what ol' Genghis got up to?

I think not.

Pre-industrial societies always used slaves: foreigners if they were strong enough to get them, their own lower classes if they weren't (you *do* know where the word 'slave' comes from, don't you, so let's not imagine whites were immune to this). The Christian Europeans were the first, British in particular - people to, from a position of power, determine that slavery was wrong.

So on, 'we' have no responsibility. Or if we do, it's the wreckage we've wrought *to our own civilization*. So very well, if you absolutely insist we can 'make right' by returning the natives whence they came.

It's especially absurd when you consider the jizya our negros and amigos extort annually anyway.

Anonymous Scintan April 21, 2015 8:09 PM  

Do we not, as a society have a responsibility to deal with the wreckage we wrought?

No

Anonymous Alexander April 21, 2015 8:09 PM  

The Medium,

Why do you insist that Jews continue to believe that everything is fine in Europe, even while the Islamic population grows and grows and we can observe more and more violent acts being committed against non-Muslims?

You're as much a friend as the man who smiles and insists the papers are just a formality, and everything will be sorted out in due time, now please, form two lines, one for men and one for the women and children.

For shame!

Anonymous Roundtine April 21, 2015 8:10 PM  

should be blamed for the financial crisis

Oh lordy, we hit the bottom of the troll barrel.

Anonymous Scintan April 21, 2015 8:10 PM  

Or should we just say, "Oops! Well that won't happen again because we're more enlightened now."

No

Anonymous Harsh April 21, 2015 8:13 PM  

We already know he thinks Jews ought to be kicked out of Europe and should be blamed for the financial crisis....because, well, the are joooooos!

I must have missed that post.

Anonymous p-dawg April 21, 2015 8:14 PM  

@The Medium: My bet is he'd favor policies that gave unfair advantages to people of certain races at the direct expense of other races. Oh, wait, my mistake, that's current American law.

Anonymous Alexander April 21, 2015 8:14 PM  

As a final point:

The cotton gin, the ocean-going ship that made the triangle trade possible, the process of making molasses, the discovery of the New World, Christianity, the discovery that cotton could grow in the Americas, and muskets...


None of those would have been possible without George Washington Carver. So really, he's the one that owes everybody reparations.

Anonymous Roundtine April 21, 2015 8:17 PM  

None of those would have been possible without George Washington Carver. So really, he's the one that owes everybody reparations

Peanut Butter pays for all of it. Also, the first phonograph needles made out of compressed peanuts.

Blogger wrf3 April 21, 2015 8:22 PM  

DavidKathome wrote: Among the many claims I keep reading is that the pen name Vox Day is Vox claiming to speak for God.

Not even close, but you have to know three languages to get it. Day -> Dei (Latin, God) -> θεος (Greek "theos", God) -> English Theo, which is short for Theodore, which is Vox's first name. So "Vox Day" -> "Voice of Theo" -> "my voice".

Furthremore, Vox is a Christian. Only one Christian claimed to be God, and we are not Him.

OpenID kbswift April 21, 2015 8:23 PM  

A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy after all.

Blogger Danby April 21, 2015 8:25 PM  

You mistake me. What I am saying is that only 1/16 of my family tree was here at all before the Civil War, and those that were, shed their blood and risked their lives to end slavery.

So Why The FUCK am I supposed to pay reparations? Because someone else did something to some third party, and they all spoke English? Because of the color of my skin?

Funny how blood libel can't apply to some groups, but you sure can apply it to others.

So take your damn posture of "I'm just trying to find Justice for these poor oppressed people" and shove up your sodomy hole, fucktard. You left off the rest of the sentence "by oppressing other people, whom I happen not to like."

Hyphenated Justice is either sadism or theft.
Or both.

Anonymous Crank April 21, 2015 8:25 PM  

I feel strongly that the descendants of black american slaves should pay large rewards to the descendants of white americans who fought, and in many cases died, to free the blacks from slavery.

Anonymous Harsh April 21, 2015 8:26 PM  

DavidKathome wrote: Among the many claims I keep reading is that the pen name Vox Day is Vox claiming to speak for God.

SJWs always fall for the okey doke. And they think they're the smart ones.

Anonymous DT April 21, 2015 8:27 PM  

Harsh April 21, 2015 8:13 PM - We already know he thinks Jews ought to be kicked out of Europe and should be blamed for the financial crisis....because, well, the are joooooos!

I must have missed that post.


It was the one right after the post where he declared his allegiance to The Nazis and The Sith. And then linked a video of a swastika covered Death Star blowing up a planet full of gays, blacks, and polar bears.

Or maybe it was after the post with his recipe video for making smoothies from live puppies?

It's getting to be so hard keeping track of the Evil League of Evil. We need a mobile app or something.

(Bets on a SJW linking my comment and claiming Vox actually did these things?)

Anonymous Godfrey April 21, 2015 8:36 PM  

People aren't even equal in the same family with the same biological parents. We're attempting to rationally debate people who have abandoned reason.

Anonymous Porphryry April 21, 2015 8:41 PM  

suffer not the xeno to live - Games Workshop

Anonymous Sheila April 21, 2015 8:43 PM  

I'm too lazy to go googling it right now, but I recall (when I first started reading about HBD) that initially, the genomes of a large variety of individuals were fed into a computer, which was then merely asked to sort them into groups - with NO metric specified. The computer, logically, then sorted them into groups that pretty closely approximated the racial subgroups that exist today. If I were the sort of conservatard who thinks facts make a difference to those at war with reality, I might cite that at Eric Flint's blog. However, since I'm both a racist and a hater and lazy today to boot, I won't bother. I read some of his alternative history a number of years ago at my older son's urging. First one was interesting, despite evidence (subtle in the beginning and then far stronger in the later volumes) of his socialist tendencies. Another name to cross off my reading list, and to add to my mind's list for those . . . who might best encounter reality in my imaginary future utopia.

Anonymous DavidKathome April 21, 2015 8:44 PM  

Thanks wrf3.

Blogger Markku April 21, 2015 8:45 PM  

They were given a chance to go to Liberia at USA's expense. Most of them didn't. They are owed NOTHING further.

Not a thing.

Blogger guest April 21, 2015 8:49 PM  

There is only one race of man. Just as there is only one species of man. The theory of evolution is drivel.

Anonymous Knarf April 21, 2015 8:54 PM  

> They might as well deny that "species" and "groups" exist while they're at it.

Well, given their obsession with interspecies sex...

Anonymous Harsh April 21, 2015 8:56 PM  

There is only one race of man. Just as there is only one species of man. The theory of evolution is drivel.

Why do you hate science?

Anonymous Porphyry April 21, 2015 8:58 PM  

warped wiseman wonders if there truly is no significance in the shape and size of any particular sexual organ, why body piercing is preferable to genital mutilation

Anonymous Porphryry April 21, 2015 9:01 PM  

no doubt the correct answer is: too many offensive words in that sentence.---> I can't even. bad feels.

Anonymous Porphyry April 21, 2015 9:11 PM  

"Please read the third paragraph by Vox Day that begins “I assert that an unborn female black child….” And then answer the question that I posed at the end, please" ---- somebody stop me if Im screwing this up but I read this as his objecting strongly to the fact that someone used black unborn child in a sentence. Rather than objecting to anything said about the black child. If true-- what a fucking retard Im surprised he hasn't emotionally castrated himself... yet...

Anonymous Donn April 21, 2015 9:12 PM  

Flint is a old school socialist. I mean real socialist not some salon socialist but the real thing. If he isn't blank slate I'd be surprised. He always throws socialist assumptions into his time travel/alternate history stories.

The good guys embrace fabian socialism the badguys oppose it but sometimes come around and socialist principles free the world. It's a weird reverse of what what really happens. Must be a mirror universe he's writing about.

Blogger JaimeInTexas April 21, 2015 9:23 PM  

I am at a loss for words. The stupid is strong in here.

My ancestors owned slaves.

S o w h a t.

Blacks freed, all enslaved.

Blogger maniacprovost April 21, 2015 9:55 PM  

The idea that "races" don't exist is simply antiscientific dogma. They might as well deny that "species" and "groups" exist while they're at it.

There are more similarities between humans and whales than between humans and starfish. Therefore, Phyla are a cultural constructs and only stupid, racist people believe in them.

Blogger Bogey April 21, 2015 9:56 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger thimscool April 21, 2015 10:16 PM  

Alexander, well met… at least at the start.

1. Agreed. If we are to discuss reparations it should be determined who the affected parties are, how they we harmed, and how to best provide recompense. Immigrants are not affected parties, we agree on that.

2. The US government pays… we all pay, including the descendants, in whatever proportion we pay taxes. How much we pay is one issue… and arguable we’ve already paid too much measured in dollars. But how is that money spent? How can we direct our efforts more effectively? Or if there is a market or policy prescription, what is it?

3. A people stripped of their language, family structure, and dignity, are “freed” to live in a society that abhors them. Virtually no capital. Virtually no connections to capital, outside of share cropping arrangements (socialized profit, Capitalized risk). That’s the starting point after the 13th was passed. That’s a bit of a handicap, can we agree? Does that affect any particular descendent of a slave (profited by the USgov)? Maybe. Probably. Maybe not. But as a group, yes, definitely.

4. First paragraph is ridiculous, as are the rest of your historical examples. I am talking about the federal government of the USA. I’m not talking about what the British colonists did to Irish slaves, or what Nazis did to Jews… or what Israel recently did to the Armenians. I’m talking about what the US government condoned, promoted, taxed, and developed upon.

The fact that slavery was commonplace at our founding or incorporation is immaterial. The effects of slavery that we are responsible for, as a sovereign, are ongoing. The slaves did not ask to be brought here; and the descendents, like all of us, are dealing with the consequences. Liberia is a pipe dream. We have to figure out how to live and work together productively, not parasitically, right here in the USA. The current system is broken almost beyond repair; it fails to meet any reasonable goals. We need to discuss how to fix it. Y’all are just tossing more scrap on the fire instead of constructing a new narrative.

Blogger thimscool April 21, 2015 10:19 PM  

Scintan, you’re a cold man. Perhaps you have some cold logic to refute me, but I assert that when you deny that the US government has responsibility for its crimes then you foster a moral hazard that more crimes will be committed and similarly forgiven.

Blogger thimscool April 21, 2015 10:19 PM  

Markku. So you think that just recompense for having been exploited, in some cases for generations, is to be shipped home, all expenses paid? Free blue umbrella drinks until we make port! That’s just fucked up, man.

Blogger S1AL April 21, 2015 10:20 PM  

Thimscool - You should start by blaming the Perle responsible for the current situation... namely, the leftists responsible for 40+ years of screwing over the black urban populations.

Blogger S1AL April 21, 2015 10:20 PM  

*people

Anonymous p-dawg April 21, 2015 10:27 PM  

@thimscool: "The slaves did not ask to be brought here..."

But I did? You are implying that I had any more control over my fate than they did. But I didn't. So why would I be responsible for things that happened hundreds of years ago? You're saying that an injustice against some people hundreds of years ago justifies an injustice against me. I have asked you several direct questions, and you have yet to respond. I request that you directly answer the following questions, per blog rules:
Is it your contention that Americans today have perpetrated slavery?

If you don't owe me anything because of the crime your grandfather committed against my grandfather, why would anyone alive today owe anyone else alive today anything because of crimes committed before any current American was born?

What is the purpose of criminal law? Or, if that is too difficult, what is the reason we punish people in the criminal justice system?

Why is injustice against me today acceptable, but injustice against slaves in the past not acceptable?

Blogger Markku April 21, 2015 10:29 PM  

Thimscool, yes.

Anonymous The other robot April 21, 2015 10:32 PM  

The slaves did not ask to be brought here...

I am sure they didn't. They should take their cases up with the descendants of those who were responsible for bringing them here.

Starting with those other blacks in their countries of origin who enslaved them firstly, and then, perhaps the financiers of the slaving ships. I have heard that they are related to certain international financiers of today.

We would also like reparations for having such savages and half-savages dumped on us.

Anonymous Steve Brown April 21, 2015 10:32 PM  

Wow, this thread is now about 18 threads. Let's get to the facts. This is a good article by Lawrence Auster on the racial differences in intelligence. Please take the time to read it, and then we can get back on the correct thread.

Vox, and all, has any of his 13 points been refuted since 1995?

http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/001132.html

Anonymous zen0 April 21, 2015 10:35 PM  

thimscool's gone nuts?

Can't keep up with this shit. Need holiday.

Blogger James Dixon April 21, 2015 10:39 PM  

> My ancestors owned slaves.

Almost all of us have ancestors who owned slaves. Almost all of us have ancestors who were slaves. There's nothing unique about the American version, save that we ended it.

Blogger maniacprovost April 21, 2015 10:39 PM  

It's impossible to make reparations to African Americans, because most African Americans are descended from more slave owners than I am. They would have to pay reparations to themselves.

Anonymous BGS April 21, 2015 10:44 PM  

"If not for blacks, the south would still be a backward, redneck-filled, degenerate civiliz.....wait......they stayed that way even with Blacks. "

Actually blacks brought hookworm parasites that they where not as greatly affected by as whites.

The last king of Rwanda lives in Virginia on welfare getting better free healthcare than you can buy in his homeland. Living on welfare is better than being in the top 1% of natives in black nations http://www.newser.com/story/165405/why-an-african-king-lives-on-public-assistance-in-virginia.html

Blogger IM2L844 April 21, 2015 10:56 PM  

thimscool, How do you determine who is culpable and who is deserving? Skin color?

Blogger JaimeInTexas April 21, 2015 10:58 PM  

The first people in line to pay reparationsnarre thd decendants of all the Africans that hunted, captured and transported the African slaves to the prision holds, leased from the African chiefs/kings by non-Africans, and sold by the Africans tobthe non-Africans.

Blogger thimscool April 21, 2015 11:04 PM  

S!AL, read again what I said and draw your conclusions. To expound: I think that we should bring back the CCC and a bunch of other federal jobs programs and put shovels in the hands of anyone that wants them. And those that don't are SOL, unless they qualify for disability, which should be patrolled by psychology majors that become social workers.

I think that helping someone up with the handle of an axe or a shovel is the proper approach. But this will take spending. And certain folks will whine that it could be done cheaper by Halliburton, and somehow it will also improve their golf course, so of course they had to call their senator. Dammit, let's put people to work, and pay them a decent wage. That will stop 95% of the bullshit. There is plenty to do, but it won't cost that much and all what is spent will go right back into the economy. Workfare. Precedented.

Blogger JaimeInTexas April 21, 2015 11:05 PM  

"If not for blacks, the south would still be a backward, redneck-filled, degenerate civiliz.....wait......they stayed that way even with Blacks. Never mind."

Main reason I said that the stupid is strong in here.

Blogger thimscool April 21, 2015 11:06 PM  

P-dawg, I apologize for not responding to your comment earlier. In essence, yes I am contending that the Americans (by which I mean the US and various related State governments) perpetrated, and profited on the perpetration of slavery.

I’ve no duty to look up the meaning of criminal law in the dictionary for you. And you have accused me of saying something I have not. When you reread what I’ve said and apologize for your mischaracterization of what I’ve said, then I’ll continue to discuss it with you.

Blogger thimscool April 21, 2015 11:10 PM  

James Dixon, mine too, through marriage. It is what it is. Not our fault.

Maniacprovost do you imagine that nobody has ever been both a plaintiff and a defendant in a criminal suit? Maybe they sold their stock in indignation?

Blogger thimscool April 21, 2015 11:10 PM  

civil suit...

Blogger JaimeInTexas April 21, 2015 11:10 PM  

One thing thatc is different about my case is that when I was,my guess 8 or 9,;I met a very old woman that was a former slave or was born to parents while they were slaves. That was mid to late 1960. I have very vague recollection of it. We wisited a few homes that day.

Blogger JaimeInTexas April 21, 2015 11:12 PM  

To clarify. Mid to late 1960s.

Blogger maniacprovost April 21, 2015 11:20 PM  

thimscool, Sure, shareholder lawsuits are common, and plenty of unions have strangled their host companies to death. It's perfectly possible to hand out money to black people, or give them preferential admission to college. We do it every day. So if you want to call that reparations, fine. But in terms of getting the descendants of the beneficiaries of slavery to pay the descendants of its victims? Practically impossible.

Blogger maniacprovost April 21, 2015 11:21 PM  

Actually, my son is part black, so I guess I'm going to be getting some of that cracker money. Yeehaw, pony up boys.

Blogger thimscool April 21, 2015 11:28 PM  

Sigh. Maniacprovost, not the "descendants of slaveowners". The US federal government, and possibly some state governments, but that one would be a harder nut to crack.

The defendant is the sovereign. as you note, you're already signed on to a bunch of other schemes that lead to sovereign debt.

FFS, let's talk about how to undo this damage, and at the same time talk about how to deal with all the other poor folks out there that can't create their own jobs. Yelling at them to create their own jobs ain't working. They'd rather take the check. Well, then limit the check unless it comes from work. Enough of the passive agressive snark about EBT cards and section 8... here's a shovel.

Anonymous Scintan April 21, 2015 11:28 PM  

but I assert that when you deny that the US government has responsibility for its crimes then you foster a moral hazard that more crimes will be committed and similarly forgiven.

thimscool, again, No.

And now you're just being stupid about it.

Blogger JaimeInTexas April 21, 2015 11:35 PM  

Just now?

Blogger thimscool April 21, 2015 11:37 PM  

School me, Scintan.

Anonymous Wyrd April 21, 2015 11:48 PM  

So, the way to hold the US government responsible for its crimes is to grow it even larger? Because that's the end result of your socialist programs or workfare or whatever you want to call it. Sounds quite diabolical.

Blogger thimscool April 21, 2015 11:49 PM  

Less so than welfare, section 8, and ebt...

Blogger S1AL April 21, 2015 11:51 PM  

"I think that helping someone up with the handle of an axe or a shovel is the proper approach. But this will take spending. And certain folks will whine that it could be done cheaper by Halliburton, and somehow it will also improve their golf course, so of course they had to call their senator. Dammit, let's put people to work, and pay them a decent wage. That will stop 95% of the bullshit. There is plenty to do, but it won't cost that much and all what is spent will go right back into the economy. Workfare. Precedented."

No, no, let's not. In case you didn't pay attention during your high school history classes, the freaking depression lasted 12 years because of this stupid sentiment.

Anonymous Wyrd April 21, 2015 11:52 PM  

Less so than welfare, section 8, and ebt...

Government doesn't shrink on its own. The best you can guarantee is an addition, not swapping one for the other.

Anonymous Northern Observer April 21, 2015 11:55 PM  

"there is no such thing as equality! It does not exist in material terms, legal terms, moral terms, scientific terms, or spiritual terms. There is no evidence for it because it simply does not exist"

"equal in human value and human dignity and unalienable, God-given rights"

Given the first quote, the second does sound a little forced, especially the human value part.

Blogger thimscool April 21, 2015 11:56 PM  

I'm interested in a discussion of what is right and logistically possible, Wyrd, not what my sniveling senators would endorse, upon consulting with their lobbyists. If you want to discuss what is politically possible, you're on the wrong blog my friend.

Anonymous TheVillageIdiot(Ret.) April 21, 2015 11:56 PM  

What percentage of African slaves delivered to the New World were delivered to British North America?
or as i like to call them,the lucky ones.
link thingy
Slave trade routes from Africa to the Americas during the period 1650-1860 are shown. There were additional routes to the New World from  Mozambique, Zanzibar and Madagascar on the east side of Africa. Most of the slaves from the east side were brought to Portuguese controlled Salvador in the state of Bahia, Brazil, along with many other slaves from Angola. Brazil received more slaves from Africa than any other country in the New World. The 500,000 African slaves sent to America represents 10% of the number sent to Brazil, and 11% of the number sent to the West Indies. According to the estimates of Hugh Thomas (12), a total of 11,128,000 African slaves were delivered live to the New World, including 500,000 to British North America; therefore, only 4.5% of the total African slaves delivered to the New World were delivered to British North America. Also from Hugh Thomas, the major sources of the 13 million slaves departing from Africa (see slave ports map, above) were Congo/Angola (3 million), Gold Coast (1.5 million), Slave Coast (2 million), Benin to Calabar* (2 million), and Mozambique/Madagascar on the east coast of Africa (1 million).
 

"In 1860 only a small minority of whites owned slaves. According to the U.S. census report for that last year before the Civil War, there were nearly 27 million whites in the country. Some eight million of them lived in the slaveholding states.

The census also determined that there were fewer than 385,000 individuals who owned slaves (1). Even if all slaveholders had been white, that would amount to only 1.4 percent of whites in the country owning one or more slave.....According to federal census reports, on June 1, 1860 there were nearly 4.5 million Negroes in the United States, with fewer than four million of them living in the southern slaveholding states. Of the blacks residing in the South, 261,988 were not slaves. Of this number, 10,689 lived in New Orleans. The country's leading African American historian, Duke University professor John Hope Franklin, records that in New Orleans over 3,000 free Negroes owned slaves, or 28 percent of the free Negroes in that city."
-By Robert M. Grooms, © 1997 COURTESY OF THE BARNES REVIEW

In America
25%+ of free blacks owned slaves
35%+ of Indians owned slaves
50%+ of Jews owned slaves
1.4% of whites owned slaves
------
Is there anyone here who believes that there are any Africans, living in any of the second or third world economic shit holes of the southern hemisphere,who are crying for any Africans lucky enough to live in any of the first world civilized white Christian societies of the northern hemisphere and their first world economies, especially America.
DannyR

Anonymous Wyrd April 21, 2015 11:58 PM  

If you want to discuss what is politically possible, you're on the wrong blog my friend.

Heh, it's you who brought up reparations which in case you haven't actually noticed ain't too popular a concept on this blog.

Anonymous hoosiertoo April 22, 2015 12:01 AM  

Mom's family was in Scotland until the late 1880's or actually fought for the Union.
Dad's family was in the Ukraine until 1912.
Wife's family was in Mexico until 1910 or Sweden until the 1890's.

I don't figure I or anyone in my family owes anybody reparations for anything.

Blogger thimscool April 22, 2015 12:03 AM  

S1AL, that is a matter of perspective. If you were one of the workers what managed to feed his kids because of those programs, you'd have less sympathy for the private labor market what wasn't offering shit in the mean time. Kind of like now.

Anonymous The League Of Blue Eyed, Milk Drinking Mutants April 22, 2015 12:05 AM  

Surely this all refers to E.E. "Doc" Smith's lost work: "Racist Lensmen", which is filled with grey eyed, red haired women...

Blogger thimscool April 22, 2015 12:09 AM  

Heh, it's you who brought up reparations which in case you haven't actually noticed ain't too popular a concept on this blog.

Touche, Wyrd.

I kind of want to know what Vox thinks. He's on record as wanting to deport illegal immigrants and limit legal immigration. But the issue of slave descendants is considerably more morally complicated. I was interested to see his response.

But i might all be meaningless pending Scintan's erudition why there is no moral hazard from denying complicity in slavery. I am transfixed...

Blogger Danby April 22, 2015 12:09 AM  

Before I even deign to read to your proposal, demonstrate to me that the dysfunction and suffering you see in the Black community is directly and provably caused by actions of the US Government.

For any example you can dream up, I can give 10 counter examples of enslaved people and enslaved nations that were able to achieve prosperity despite living under harder conditions and having achieved freedom more recently.

Ireland it the first example that comes to mind. While Blacks were barely getting by as sharecroppers in the Reconstruction South, the Irish were still enslaved, and were literally starved to death as a matter of public policy and the will of her English masters. More people died in 7 years than in all the slave ships bringing Blacks to the 13 Colonies and the US combined over a period of what, 200 years? Ireland only achieved her freedom in the 1930s.

Virtually the entire population of Russia, millions of people, were legally enslaved to landowners right up until 1919.They had no more rights and no more dignity than any slave in the US, and were frequently bought and sold. And following the legal enslavement came the incredibly destructive period of the Communist Republic, in which, despite paper freedom, everyone, even the most powerful lived at the whim of her dictators.

So spare your sob story. Slavery did not cause and does not cause the dysfunction in the Black community.

Blogger thimscool April 22, 2015 12:32 AM  

Danby, you were quite rude to me earlier.
I will look past it.

The examples that you mention are different because the slaves were held as a cohesive cultural unit, in spite of many cruel incursions into their family, religious, and personal space. Slavery as practiced in the US is not unique in that it scattered cultures together in an entirely foreign space, with the only common language and culture being the master's; nor is it unique in suffering ongoing consequences for this action among it's citizens. But I don't see that common thread among any of the examples you mentioned.

If you are trying to inform me that US slavery was tame compared to other examples, don't bother. For example,the way the arabs treated their slaves then, and some continue to do so now, is abhorrent. I'm not arguing that the US government was doing something unusual or unprecedented. I'm arguing that it was wrong. And US citizens still deal with the repercussions today.

The question is what should properly be done about it... I gather we're all pretty unhappy about the results of current policies. So what should be done instead. We're already spending the money. Maybe we should spend more. Or less. But most likely it is similar but we need to do things differently. How?



Anonymous Scintan April 22, 2015 12:36 AM  

But the issue of slave descendants is considerably more morally complicated.

No, it's not. You keep making claims as if they're somehow not debatable. That's not the case.

Blogger Danby April 22, 2015 12:44 AM  

Again you miss my point, you flatulent baboon

Slavery 4 and 5 generations ago did not and does not cause the violence, promiscuity, ignorance and poverty in the Black community today. Thousands of other people have risen from worse circumstances to prosper. Why is Black America different.

I will even give you the only two choices I see as possibilities:
1) Blacks are different in some way from the Irish and the Russians. Different in a way that makes it more difficult for them to maintain the behaviors required to prosper, like restraint, chastity, and prudence. OR
2) Blacks were handled differently by the surrounding culture, perhaps by policies discouraging behavior required to prosper, like restraint, chastity, and prudence, and rewarding illegitimacy, profligacy and irresponsibility.

Blogger thimscool April 22, 2015 12:46 AM  

And yet you fail to offer any debate. If I fail to preface any of my statements by noting that it is my opinion, please forgive me for sparing those that aren't hopeless pedants like yourself.

Blogger thimscool April 22, 2015 12:47 AM  

My above was meant for Scintan. Danby, good luck to you.

Anonymous Wyrd April 22, 2015 1:01 AM  

The question is what should properly be done about it...

What should be properly done is folks need to get on with their lives and their obligations to God, stop pretending vice is virtue, and resist looking to Big Government as a replacement for facing their own personal sins. The biggest problem for blacks is they've collectively bought into Satanic leftist bullshit as an excuse to wallow in their own filth and blame whites for doing so. Many years ago, a black friend confided in me he was thankful his ancestors were enslaved and brought to the U.S. because 1) he was brought up in the Christian faith instead of, his own words, some jungle ooga-booga devil-worship, and 2) he and his predecessors had a higher standard of living than his brethren in Africa even if having to do manual labor on a farm. At the time, I was a good little liberal and was shocked by his assertion; but these days I applaud his long-term thinking abilities.

Anonymous Stilicho April 22, 2015 1:03 AM  

I laughed my ass off when I read that thimscool wants reparations for slavery... in the form of government labor camps.

Blogger thimscool April 22, 2015 1:08 AM  

Laugh it up, fuzzball.

Blogger Blume April 22, 2015 1:10 AM  

Do the Africans who sold them to us owe reparations too?

Blogger Danby April 22, 2015 1:12 AM  

@Thimisatool
Rules of the blog dude,
I'm not required to respect you, nor to treat you with respect. We are required to actually make our arguments. I have done so, you have failed to do so. You assert a vital link in the argument without the suspicion of a scintilla of evidence, and that link is indeed contrary to all human experience.

Answer it or be discredited:

I've asked you twice now,a direct question, about your assertion. I'll ask again;

Why is Black America different?

Answer it.

Blogger thimscool April 22, 2015 1:19 AM  

Probably not actionable, Blume. I'm talking about US citizens that are descendents were systematically imported, bread, distributed as slaves, under the approving and taxing eye of the existing US government. Much more direct and actionable jurisdiction. Unfortunately there is no movement to take action on this issue. It would be cathartic for our nation.

Morally, do the African slave trader's descendants owe a debt? I tend to say no, for the same reason that I don't think I personally owe a debt. But yes, I think that the USA owes a debt.

Anonymous Wyrd April 22, 2015 1:22 AM  

Morally, do the African slave trader's descendants owe a debt? I tend to say no, for the same reason that I don't think I personally owe a debt. But yes, I think that the USA owes a debt.

So, individuals don't owe a debt, but collectively do owe a debt. Your thinking is so confused no wonder you consider tired-ass socialism to be the answer.

Blogger Jim April 22, 2015 1:24 AM  

"Jim, I speak for myself and I'll speak how I want. I didn't "steal your identity". Sell it at the door."

Excuse me, but:

"The fact that slavery was commonplace at our founding or incorporation is immaterial."

That's our word. You have no right to it.

And I'm still waiting on my reparations. With a thousand years' interest (I will, of course, have to pay my share to myself, but that's a small price).

Blogger Danby April 22, 2015 1:24 AM  

"It would be cathartic for our nation."

So would a a revolution where we take out every single leftist and shoot them, building a pyre with their bodies whose smoke would obscure the sun.
That doesn't make it a good idea.

Anonymous Alexander April 22, 2015 1:24 AM  

Cathartic, hell! Quit spewing shit like it's fact when it's not. An actual program to 'take action on this issue' ie. explicitly jump up taxation for white people to give even more of their money to blacks, would lead to civil war, full stop. Although this time, you wouldn't have a nice geographic minority against fed.gov.You think Yankees who bost that their great-great-granduncle died in podunk, virginia are going to be super psyched that you're effectively suing them? What do you think west coast mexicans are gonna do?

And that's before we get to us Southrons.


You are insane.

Blogger thimscool April 22, 2015 1:26 AM  

Wyrd, is the national debt collective?

Is national debt, "tired ass socialism".


Anonymous Wyrd April 22, 2015 1:28 AM  

Is national debt, "tired ass socialism".

In practice, very much so.

Blogger thimscool April 22, 2015 1:39 AM  

Heh, so this would fit right in. Except, instead of subsides, defense boondoggles, and the NSA, we should fund the CCC, and similar programs. Give them a shovel and a paycheck. If they're smart, give them a clipboard. If they're really smart, give them access to planning. Pay them enough that they won't qualify for welfare, ebt, etc. But make em work for it.

Rebuild our breaking bridges. Make the grid and Fire/Police/Medical communications EMP proof. Spend on infrastructure, and employ people.

Blogger ChicagoRefugee April 22, 2015 1:43 AM  

Do we not, as a society have a responsibility to deal with the wreckage we wrought?

Many, if not most, of the social and cultural pathologies commonly attributed to the experience of slavery didn't metastasize until the 60s and The Great Society.

Maybe you can dun LBJ, the Democrat Party, and the New Left for the damage.

Blogger thimscool April 22, 2015 1:45 AM  

ChicagoRefugee, if you read on, I basically agree. Hard to get folks around here to see that though.

Anonymous Wyrd April 22, 2015 1:48 AM  

Give them a shovel and a paycheck.

Carry on the Glorious Revolution, Comrade Thimscool. I'm off to bed. God bless you and your family.

Anonymous Alexander April 22, 2015 1:48 AM  

Well if those were the only choices...

I would rather just give a gang of black men money, than have them design and build a bridge or communication system my life might depend on.

Hey, thimscool, what do you call a white man overseeing a bunch of black men doing physical labor for a project they could never, ever reproduce in their own society.

Zing!

Blogger Danby April 22, 2015 1:50 AM  

Sound great guy. you know how that always ALWAYS works out in practice?
Ghost City in China.
Government Apartment building in China
It turns into a horrible huge bureaucracy, where thousands, or even millions of people are dependent on the system to survive. It becomes impossible to eliminate or even reduce the program, and finally, it becomes a goal in itself. in the terminal stage,the government employees don't even bother doing a proper job.

If you are concerned about unemployment amongst the descendents of Blacks, you should be petitioning to remove the millions of illegal residents in the country back to their homes.

But you're not, really. You just want a program that will make you feel good, results be damned.

Blogger IM2L844 April 22, 2015 1:52 AM  

But yes, I think that the USA owes a debt.

thimscool, you've utterly failed to make any kind of an internally consistent and logically coherent argument. You just keep bouncing around. Hell, you haven't even clearly delineated your position. Now, people have given you a lot of leeway here and you've squandered it. I can only conclude you are either intentionally feigning obtuseness, for some unknown reason, or you are an actual simpleton. In either case, you need to outline some kind of reasonable and defensible argument or go away. It's becoming monotonous.

OpenID joshtheaspie April 22, 2015 1:52 AM  

Point of order. The mean, and median, along with the mode, are all types of averages. Different people view different types of averages to be more "natural" associations to the word "average" in different categories. So when someone brings up a point based on averages, it's important to make sure you're on the same page as to the type of average.

For example, "the average woman makes 77 cents on the dollar to the average man" which is more detailed than that drummed up, badly formed, and out-dated statistic usually gets. This figure was gained over a decade ago, by taking the median of all full-time working adults, ignoring profession, experience, hours worked, public/private practice, sub-professions (neuro surgeon vs dermatologist), and making false equivalencies.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 22, 2015 1:57 AM  

thimscool, did you sleep through the last trillion dollars in "reparations" since 1965?

Here's a fun fact: thanks to immigration, more and more black people in America are not descended from the slave ships. Yet they still are eligible for affirmative action, a temporary program intended to aid victims of Jim Crow - a program now over 40 years old.

So tell me, thimscool, why a recent arrival from Ethiopia should be preferred over someone whose family has been here for centuries, merely because of the color of his skin (rather than the content of his character, not that you'll recognize where this line comes from)?

In your world, black / dark brown skin == descended from US slaves. In the real world that is increasingly not true.

That whole reparations racket is well past it's sell-by date. It's like a package of sour cream left over from the Superbowl….

PS: what do you suggest, aside from retreading tired FDR programs that had no real effect, dude? Handing out checks to every "slave descendent", perhaps? What would you expect your cut to be, hmmm?

Blogger Danby April 22, 2015 1:58 AM  

"But yes, I think that the USA owes a debt."

And I'd like to see a wet-ink signature on the note before we give title to the house over to the plaintiff.

Why are American Blacks different?

Answer the question.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 22, 2015 1:59 AM  

But yes, I think that the USA owes a debt.


No, you feel that the USA owes a debt. No evidence that you can think, none in the slightest.

Blogger Kentucky Packrat April 22, 2015 2:06 AM  

Morally, do the African slave trader's descendants owe a debt? I tend to say no, for the same reason that I don't think I personally owe a debt. But yes, I think that the USA owes a debt.

It's easy to talk about the US Government as a all-powerful, all rich entity, but governments have no way to create wealth; they instead siphon it off the top from their constituents. You can say that the US owes a moral debt to repay for slavery, but for practical purposes, the only way to pay descendants of slaves would be to take money from current US taxpayers (or borrow it on the back of future US taxpayers). Even if you try to do something cute like sell Yellowstone or hock the Capitol building, you just have to tax later to make the money back up.

Also, at a moral level, you miss that the US also suffered greatly for the sins of slavery. The South received Sherman and Grant, and the North received Lincoln and the greenback (and approximately 30 years of deflation), not to mention the half-million people killed and nearly that many permanently injured. IMHO, God allowed the US to suffer mightily for her sins in the area of the African slave trade, but that suffering was unleashed onto a generation that was still culpable for their own actions and still receiving the benefits from the actions of their parents and grandparents.

Now, the slave trade's effects are effectively gone. The Civil War and the post-war depressions destroyed almost all of the wealth gained by slave runners and slave traders. You might find one or two families out there that took pre-Civil War wealth and have keep it intact, but it's mighty few.

If you want to spend your money helping remove the damage of slavery from the black people in the US, feel free. Please stop advocating doing so with MY money. I am sufficiently non-white to where I don't believe in "white privilege" (much less have it), and the white part of my background is such that I can assure you that my family wasn't involved (we didn't get our money until great, great, granddaddy bootlegged it, and his son drank and gambled his share away faster than he got it).

Blogger thimscool April 22, 2015 2:18 AM  

I hear you, Kentucky Packrat. And I did not miss that we have already suffered mightily for this scourge... but it's not done.

I don't like paying for the Iraq war. But I pay, and we'll all be paying for that for some time. Sovereign debt.

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