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Sunday, April 12, 2015

Show or skedaddle?

George Martin responds to my offer of honest dialogue and a debate:
So... I post here about how pleased I was to enjoy one good night, away from all this Puppygate shit, and you feel the need to drag Vox Day into it?

What would be the subject of this "debate?" Whether women should have the vote? Whether black people are savages or only half-savages?

Perhaps after that debate, I could debate Requires Hate on whether writers should have acid thrown in their faces, or just be raped by dogs.
We can debate whatever issues are so important that you claimed you wanted to be able to debate when you said: "Can't we just debate the issues?"

I am giving you that opportunity. The opportunity you said you wanted.

We can certainly debate whether women should have the vote if you wish. We can debate whether black people are savages or half-savages, if that is a subject that is of particular interest to you.

I think it would be more interesting to debate your demand for no tolerance of hatespeech and the proper limits of free speech. There is also the strange contention that Requires Hate and I "are twins. Mirror images of one another." You made the assertion. You have neither recanted nor apologized for it. Therefore, it seems a reasonable subject of honest dialogue and debate, given that I very much disagree with the assertion. Alternatively, we could debate the long term ramifications of the No Award tactic, the quality of the 2015 Best Novel shortlist compared to past Hugo shortlists, or any other aspect of Puppygate that you might find interesting.

The point, Mr. Martin, is that you said debate and honest dialogue are important. You are one of the biggest and best-known figures who claims to be on the side of those you call "the good guys" in SF fandom. I am the Supreme Dark Lord of the Evil Legion of Evil and a rising figure in science fiction. If you cannot bother to engage in honest dialogue with me, then why should any of the less famous, less notorious, less influential individuals on either side of the ideological divide in science fiction bother to do so either?

I'm entirely comfortable with the idea of an open, all-out ideological war. War-War is intrinsically more entertaining than Talk-Talk, after all. Are you?

Now, it's possible that you didn't mean what you wrote. It's possible that you are just another posturing SJW, who puffs and preens and bluffs until he is called out, then promptly runs away. Many of my readers, who are also your readers, believe that. But I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you transparently were not willing to give me.

If you want to run away and claim that you are too busy doing Very Important Things to engage in what you said was required, that's absolutely fine with me. I can certainly use that to my advantage. I have with others who ran away in the past. But because I have enjoyed some of your work since "Sandkings", I will violate Napoleon's dictum and point out that you will likely end up hearing my name a lot more often if you run away than if you do not.

Labels:

122 Comments:

Blogger bob k. mando April 12, 2015 7:14 PM  

oh, brave sir Georgie!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACajzIlzvH0

Anonymous Fp April 12, 2015 7:15 PM  

Another SJW bluff called.

Anonymous Discard April 12, 2015 7:15 PM  

No leftist will ever honestly debate affirmative action or immigration, which, as a working class White man, are my own litmus tests. They are all cunts, relying on their control of the microphone to avoid any challenge to their lies.
I don't know who George Martin is, but if he won't debate, he's excrement.

Blogger Adam Lawson April 12, 2015 7:15 PM  

GRRM is such a whiny bitch. I'm not sure why he wouldn't debate -- it's not like he's busy writing. Eating, maybe?

Definitely a "sensitive artist" type.

Blogger Vox April 12, 2015 7:16 PM  

Another SJW bluff called.

Notice the pattern? The lesson, as always, is this: SJWs always lie.

Anonymous Pa Kur April 12, 2015 7:18 PM  

The SJWs speak with forked tongues, which makes sense, as they speak lies just like their father. Martin is beginning to look like a lying coward. He should either debate or apologize to Vox.

Blogger Michael Maier April 12, 2015 7:19 PM  

It surely seem we're to the point where it's automatic:

If they support SJW-BS, they're going to be a cowardly weasel. About everything.

Anonymous realmatt April 12, 2015 7:21 PM  

Damn Vox. You layin em on deez niggas

Anonymous Philalethes April 12, 2015 7:21 PM  

Martin wrote (after deleting the comment that first suggested a debate):

What would be the subject of this "debate?"

He also wrote of Vox Day:

...spewing forth the venom of hatred and violence, poisoning any attempt at honest dialogue...."

I would suggest he could begin by simply offering some evidence for this characterization. I've been reading Vox Day for some fifteen years, and while he is certainly blunt, even caustic on occasion, I don't recall seeing anything from him that fits this description.

Come on, Martin, show some integrity. Evidence, please?

Anonymous Shoeboy April 12, 2015 7:24 PM  

George is mad at Vox for answering back when attacked by a back woman, despite being neither black, nor a woman. This is an unforgivable sin to George, as his resemblance to the pigs of animal farm is more than merely physical. He really does believe that some animals are more equal than others.

Blogger Noah B April 12, 2015 7:26 PM  

Jemisin herself admitted to being full-savage. GRRM, are you unable to take a woman of color at her word?

Anonymous Ain April 12, 2015 7:29 PM  

They know they have nothing to gain from debate. A large mass of people already believe their lies without question. It's like a politician that has a large lead in the polls -- nothing to gain at the risk of losing. Is there a way to render not having a debate to be less attractive to them than losing one?

Blogger Noah B April 12, 2015 7:30 PM  

"raped by dogs"

A clue about the plot of his next novel, perhaps.

Anonymous MrGreenMan April 12, 2015 7:37 PM  

I grow ever more confused as to what could make anyone believe Mr. Martin was a good writer. Perhaps I only see the old, enfeebled man who prattles on about civil debate and then responds with the same venom he blames on the other side?

Anyway, Mr. Martin will probably be haunted by his words. He cannot un-demand debate. How long will he be a coward?

Anonymous Mark Citadel April 12, 2015 7:39 PM  

He locked himself in here. There's no escape. HE CALLED FOR THE DEBATE! Again, I think he lacks any confidence he can defend a single one of his positions.

Anonymous jack April 12, 2015 7:40 PM  

I am entertained. At first, several days ago, I thought GRRM might, might I say, be a voice of reason in the acknowledged 'heights' of SF/F..The heights, now, not necessarily the epitome of excellence in writing the story, the plot, the dialogue, the hero.
Sadly, it seems I was hasty.
Forgive me Lords Day and Correia. And, the Ilk, of course.

Anonymous Sun Xhu April 12, 2015 7:41 PM  

GRRM wants debate among self-described "moderates", who are varying degrees of liberal. He definitely does not want to have any debate with you, who he has pre-disqualified as a vewy-bad-man who will never accede to "right-think".

We could all just claim that GRRM has been sending us death and rape threats, and he'd have to believe us because "he's known a number of people (IRL even, honest) who've gotten them", so anyone who claims that they have cannot be faking it. As he stated.

Anonymous VoK April 12, 2015 7:43 PM  

Well, he's deleting all of my responses. Oddly, they were polite responses. I suppose he objected to the meat of the content, however politely it happened to be worded.

Anonymous Mark Citadel April 12, 2015 7:44 PM  

And yes, Jemisin is a half savage, She behaved like one. Essentially, Martin believes white men cannot respond to insults from black women. News flash: we can and will

Blogger Douglas Wardell April 12, 2015 7:44 PM  

I've been reading Martin's blog slightly longer than this one and while he's certainly a leftist, he's never struck me as dishonest or cowardly. I will lose a great deal of respect for him if he declines the debate.

Anonymous Sun Xhu April 12, 2015 7:45 PM  

@Douglas Wardell:

Do you agree with GRRM's characterization of VD? If not, why haven't you already lost all respect for him?

Anonymous IndecisiveEvidence April 12, 2015 7:46 PM  

A trap of his own making. To offer thoughtless platitudes only to then be asked to actually mean what he said. I begin to suspect Vox's true evil power is to be blessed with incompetent foes.

Blogger bob k. mando April 12, 2015 7:46 PM  

Neil Gaiman says, "George R.R. Martin is not your bitch" ... because he's too scared to debate you, in which debate you would make him your bitch.

also, he's much too busy NOT WRITING his next novel to engage in any substantive debates. because that would make him the bitch of his fans.

and George is going to be damned if he's anybody's bitch.

maybe if Vox promises to love him and hug him and squeeze him ... and call him George?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JlVqfC8-UI

a ... bunny rabbit ... named ... George.

you'd almost think that Vox had planned this out years ago when he first labeled Scalzi a Gamma Rabbit.

Blogger rcocean April 12, 2015 7:46 PM  

Yep, anytime a SJW calls for an "Open honest debate" they are lying.

Anonymous MrGreenMan April 12, 2015 7:46 PM  

@Douglas Wardell

Why are you saying this... OVER HERE? Perhaps tell the grandmaster himself.

Blogger rcocean April 12, 2015 7:47 PM  

Did George Martin ever identify any death threats or violence that Vox committed? Or was that dodged too?

Anonymous Anonymous April 12, 2015 7:47 PM  

Offer to donate money to the organization Against Malaria if he debates you. This organization provides insecticidal nets to poor Africans.

James Miller

Blogger rcocean April 12, 2015 7:48 PM  

BTW, I liked Brad's answer to George Martin. Polite yet devastating.

Anonymous Steve April 12, 2015 7:50 PM  

Best $40 I've ever spent, and the awards aren't even till August.

Thank you Vox. Thank you too, John C. Wright, Brad Torgersen, Sarah Hoyt, Larry Correia, and all the other excellent authors I've had the pleasure of discovering through the Sad and Rabid Puppies slates.

Anonymous Anonymous April 12, 2015 8:04 PM  

My friends the Ilk, you have ceded an important part of the battle for far too long. I won't allow this mismatch to continue for even one second longer. Sacred honor compels me to level the playing field.

Ladies, avert your eyes. Gentlemen, prepare the print screen key. I will now commence.

Someone should rape you all.

There. Now you have all received a rape threat of such severity as to rival those Anita and Brianna have received. Go forth with pride. You can share in their pain and sorrow.

I will not provide a death threat or help with moving expenses or a truck for anyone who feels compelled to flee their homes. My generosity is not limitless.

Blogger Douglas Wardell April 12, 2015 8:04 PM  

Sun Xhu April 12, 2015 7:45 PM
@Douglas Wardell:

Do you agree with GRRM's characterization of VD? If not, why haven't you already lost all respect for him?


No. Because I don't base my entire opinion of someone on whether every opinion they hold is correct. And frankly, Vox sometimes baits the hook in such a way that the casual observer might easily misinterpret what's being stated. Now, if Martin comes away from an actual encounter with Vox still asserting those things after having been disabused, I'll reevaluate my opinion at that time.



MrGreenMan April 12, 2015 7:46 PM
@Douglas Wardell

Why are you saying this... OVER HERE? Perhaps tell the grandmaster himself.


Because I post here occasionally and I haven't posted there before. I guess I should cross-post this though.

Anonymous MrGreenMan April 12, 2015 8:07 PM  

@Douglas Wardell:

Thank you. I am well known to come here for the music and the gunfights, but I fear some people won't always come here, and sometimes, you must make an ilkscursion.

Blogger Vox April 12, 2015 8:08 PM  

And frankly, Vox sometimes baits the hook in such a way that the casual observer might easily misinterpret what's being stated.

Fair enough. I'm amused that people are still snapping at that Homo sapiens sapiens one. I never thought it would catch PZ, though.

It's always funny when someone explains it to them, and they try to find a seemingly plausible explanation to maintain the outrage they are obviously still feeling. Aristotle really had their number.

Anonymous H2 April 12, 2015 8:09 PM  

I think it was very foolish of GRRM to get involved with all of this, not because him running away from a debate from Vox makes him look like a typical SJW, but because by even talking about the Hugos and SP/RP he's opening himself up to other SJWs saying that he isn't doing enough or that he has too much privilege, etc. if he ever says something that's slightly wrong in the near future.

Blogger JaimeInTexas April 12, 2015 8:09 PM  

Just like any honest journalists getting the Puppies side of the story would have been tarnished as hate enablers, so will Mr. Martin be discredited if he were to really have an public tete-a-tete with Vox.
I very much doubt it will happen but, Mr. Martin's bonafides might give him a leeway with his pinkies.

Anonymous Anonymous April 12, 2015 8:15 PM  

fnd:

Thou shall not question leftist dogmas

Anonymous Rhys April 12, 2015 8:16 PM  

OT:

SJWs cry foul as Sad Puppies from the planet Correia XLV gain seats on the Intergalactic High Council

http://modefive.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/sjws-cry-foul-as-sad-puppies-from_12.html

Blogger Double E April 12, 2015 8:17 PM  

man these people are hilarious. Within hours of pleading "why cant we debate" you accept and then he writes "debate" with quotation marks like you are really asking for gladiatorial combat or something.

What a worthless fraud.

Anonymous SumDood April 12, 2015 8:19 PM  

grrm argues like a grrl.

Anonymous Giuseppe April 12, 2015 8:21 PM  

Hahahhahah Vox,
You really are an award winning cruelty artist. That was beautiful.
I applaude. Not a golf clap either. Respectful and sober standing ovation. Very impressive sir.

Anonymous Mycroft Jones April 12, 2015 8:24 PM  

The first four episodes of season 5 of Game of Thrones were leaked a few hours ago. Someone in high authority is punishing GRRM for his hubris? Let him not profit from his nihilistic filth.

Anonymous Strange Aeons April 12, 2015 8:26 PM  

Couldn't help noticing that over at GRRM's warren, the crowd who is famous for keyboard bravery and shrieking at people for badthink are all lamenting how uncivil the Internet can be.
All this money I spent on popcorn for the debate could have gone toward a new fuse for my ironymeter.

Blogger S1AL April 12, 2015 8:32 PM  

"Fair enough. I'm amused that people are still snapping at that Homo sapiens sapiens one."

Which part? Not knowing the DNA theories or not catching the jab at science-as-morality?

Anonymous kh123 April 12, 2015 8:33 PM  

Lambdasize the two R's in GRRM.

Precious, precious debateses. The Voxses wanted it. It can't has it. Filthy ilkses...

Anonymous Wild Bill April 12, 2015 8:41 PM  

Can anyone point me to the Napoleon dictum to which Vox referred? Just curious.

Anonymous grey enlightenment April 12, 2015 8:42 PM  

such a pity the great GRRM has to resort to childish hyperbole

Anonymous kfg April 12, 2015 8:43 PM  

"To offer thoughtless platitudes only to then be asked to actually mean what he said."

Among New England offshore fishermen the highest accolade that could be accorded a man's character used to be:

He will do sober what he promised drunk.

Blogger Eric April 12, 2015 8:45 PM  

This isn't at all surprising. It's pretty much SOP for SJWs to call for an open and honest debate and then mark as out of bounds all the positions on the other side. How could he possibly debate you? He's already decided everything you say is Hate Speech Wot Is Too Hateful To Be Free Speech.

Blogger Krul April 12, 2015 8:46 PM  

Can anyone point me to the Napoleon dictum to which Vox referred?

I think it's "Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."

Blogger Eric April 12, 2015 8:50 PM  

The actual quote is "“In that case let us wait twenty minutes; when the enemy is making a false movement we must take good care not to interrupt him.”

Anonymous Foster April 12, 2015 8:50 PM  

At first I was inclined to disapprove of the strategy of provoking SJWs to anger and so to miscalculation and overreaction with provocatively phrased statements like "NK Jemisin and I are not equally Homo sapiens" (When in fact NK Jemisin is *more* Homo sapiens than someone with significant caucasian ancestry, as you well know, Vox). After all, does not the bible say, "In so far as it lies with you, live at peace with all men."

What I failed to take into account though is that peace never existed from the start. They are "warriors" indeed. They always aim to ideologically cleanse the landscape by the most violent means deemed barely socially acceptable in each case. It's similar to the case of Marcus Valerius in your book. He appeared to execute noncombatants in order to gain a useful reputation for cruelty and injustice, while in fact maintaining justice. One can be Machiavellian without being a Machiavelli.

Blogger Werekoala1066 April 12, 2015 8:52 PM  

Grima Wormtongue, in the form of SJWs, still works his magic I see. Choosing to believe what he is told, believe hearsay, or even outright lies, rather than discover the truth for himself?

Oh, George, surely you are better than that...

OpenID malcolmthecynic April 12, 2015 8:54 PM  

At first I was inclined to disapprove of the strategy of provoking SJWs to anger and so to miscalculation and overreaction with provocatively phrased statements like "NK Jemisin and I are not equally Homo sapiens" (When in fact NK Jemisin is *more* Homo sapiens than someone with significant caucasian ancestry, as you well know, Vox).

Those two statements don't contradict each other.

Anonymous Boogeyman April 12, 2015 8:57 PM  

I'm a bit confused. Why does a nihilist, someone who thinks nothing really matters, care about "hate speech" or anything else?

Blogger richard mcenroe April 12, 2015 9:00 PM  

Awwww, Vox, you ruined his pose...

Anonymous p-dawg April 12, 2015 9:02 PM  

Boogeyman: Yes, I've always been curious as to how the actions of random collections of molecules could be either "good" or "bad", no matter what they are. It's tough to get an answer on that one from nihilists.

Blogger Eric April 12, 2015 9:03 PM  

No, Donny, these men are nihilists, there's nothing to be afraid of.

Blogger Eric April 12, 2015 9:05 PM  

It's entirely possible that the man simply feels degraded and dirty merely by Vox's proximity, virtual or otherwise, and this alone is enough to ignore Vox's desperate whine to debate.

Or maybe he's just too fat to move. What kind of person issues a challenge and then doesn't follow through?

Anonymous Billy April 12, 2015 9:17 PM  

Old fat fuck, probably hadn't had pussy since pussy had him.

Anonymous Reader April 12, 2015 9:24 PM  

Hey, guys

You just don't know how boring it is in Australia!

Blogger bob k. mando April 12, 2015 9:27 PM  

Billy April 12, 2015 9:17 PM
\Old fat fuck, probably hadn't had pussy since pussy had him.



ever had a pussy around your neck?

Anonymous Porky April 12, 2015 9:29 PM  

I will personally send a box of Krispy Kremes to each participant.






Anonymous AlteredFate April 12, 2015 9:44 PM  

The left can not tolerate debate. It would reveal the naked emperor behind the curtain. The wide spectrum of issues the left takes issue with amounts to self evident and readily apparent truths that they refuse to acknowledge as such. With fingers in their ears they shout "La La La La" to any word spoken against The Narrative, evidence be damned. I have read Vox for a very long time. The problem his opponents have is that he does not take up a position unless it is provably the correct position, which in turn means that if you are in opposition you are very likely provably wrong. There are unsettled debates to be sure, but none of those are between Vox and the left.

They always lie because they are always wrong. They have no other refuge.

Blogger bob k. mando April 12, 2015 9:54 PM  

ah, i have it!

Martin's error was saying Vox's name out loud. for, you see, he has now summoned Vox to his demesne. and, as we all know, Vox is not so easily exorcised.


and besides, Vox grows weary of resting his buttocks pon yonder thunder winged garuda bird. he requires amusement and distraction.

Anonymous ENthePeasant April 12, 2015 9:59 PM  

Hilarious stuff. I'm not a gamer nor do I care that much about SF. But the shrill influence of the SJW is felt across the spectrum. Even in my beloved Historical/nonfiction books there's an ever increasing drumbeat to not use certain history... particularly facts. It's amazing how this argument seems to take in the entire social spectrum of activity. And the SJW is found wanting at every turn. Martin calls for a debate and then tries to get out of it. His minions come here speaking as if it never happened and that the debate idea was VDs. This encapsulates the entire problem with the SJW. He believes the truth should not be any part of the whole, or at least he is immune from it's consequences. Fun times for me to watch this.

Blogger Troy Lee Messer April 12, 2015 10:01 PM  

OT: Apparently Hillary want to be my champion. I say, "Hey toots, why don't you shut your yap and champion me up a sammich."

Anonymous kh123 April 12, 2015 10:02 PM  

GRRM, meet Tad. Tad, meet your potential paymaster for however long he needs to duck and run.

Anonymous realmatt April 12, 2015 10:06 PM  

Terrible episode. I forsee a terrible season. A terrible gay season.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza April 12, 2015 10:18 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza April 12, 2015 10:21 PM  

Summoning out an AWCA is their biggest online error.

I have added countless people to my ignore and do not purchase list, the SJWmcjizzles, Martin, Hayden, Jeminism and the few more listed in the last 3 posts, like PZ, McScaRaRa., etc. Including youtube videos. Anyways, I am greatly disappointed in and disapproving of countless matters regarding puppygate, gamergate and the Hugos.

How can these pple hate puppies?! Why run from debate?

What is the problem here?

Mass jealously, hatred of gen x? If anything the gen xers better get their acts together b/c the older gens have no willingness or love for their success. They hate us for our youth, fight and values. Meanwhile most in the circles want the fanship/readership reading, talking about books, etc.

There will never be a resolution, ever.

OT: Summoning my ire is a serious error. We will have to pray for the above the law banks, the system and the state for they have royally errored hurting dad, mom and I. They are attempting MORE financial rape, yet there is only so much ooze from a turnip.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus April 12, 2015 10:24 PM  

LP 999/Eliza: "How can these pple hate puppies?! Why run from debate?

What is the problem here?"

The usual: reasonless hatred for the Red Man,

OpenID gnonprophet April 12, 2015 10:27 PM  

If SJWs believe in "Punching Up", then I would say an attack by George Martin acknowledges that Vox has moved into a new weight-class.

Congratulations!

Anonymous Anubis April 12, 2015 10:29 PM  

"Offer to donate money to the organization Against Malaria if he debates you. This organization provides insecticidal nets to poor Africans."

Screw that tell him you will donate to one of the charities that buys slaves in Africa and sets them free. He isn't against freeing black slaves is he? Although they buy slaves for only $5 each you would have to donate more due to admin costs to be able to say you yourself freed slaves. I was going to link one but this is even better a charty known for poisoning kids is against freeing slaves
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/03/12/world/un-criticism-angers-charities-buying-sudan-slaves-release.html

"Whether women should have the vote?" No one who receives more money from the taxpayers then they pay in should be able to vote because they don't have skin in the game. The founding fathers only extended votes to those with skin in the game.

"Whether black people are savages or only half-savages"

I would say 1/2 black is still full savage, but if he would like to have a debate I would be willing to restrict myself to only data from the NAACP & journal of blacks in higher EDU. If he is willing to acknowledge that the NAACP pointed out that 11 zip codes in Philly produce criminals that eat up over 1/2 of PA's prison budget, I can knock down the belief that there are as many crack hoes & drug dealers are on the street committing crimes in Podunk as those 99% black zip codes.

"Why are you saying this... OVER HERE? Perhaps tell the grandmaster himself."

Perhaps he is getting deleted as well. Is Martin posting here under a false name?

"Old fat fuck, probably hadn't had pussy since pussy had him"- It was speculated on the other post that the dwarf who pays for sex is actually Martin's projection of himself.

Blogger Corvinus April 12, 2015 10:40 PM  

So... I post here about how pleased I was to enjoy one good night, away from all this Puppygate shit, and you feel the need to drag Vox Day into it?

Translation: "I was just blowing off steam, you ninnies! Why did you actually have to go and get Vox Day's attention? That's the absolute last thing I wanted!"

Blogger Werekoala1066 April 12, 2015 10:43 PM  

Coming up next: People like Vox are so clearly wrong, and repugnant, that they aren't worthy of debating.

Film at 11.

Anonymous Severian April 12, 2015 10:55 PM  

"and you feel the need to drag Vox Day into it?"

Is GURRM going senile?
He, the most famous living fantasy author, basically pointed the finger at Vox -HE CALLED HIM OUT--, a much lesser known author, and asked for the community to ostracize him, then refuses to actually engage with him directly.
What a colossal disappointment. I don't remember ever losing my respect so drastically for someone whose works I've enjoyed so much.

Anonymous Donn April 12, 2015 11:00 PM  

I believe that GRRM really does believe that Vox is beyond the Pale and cannot be engaged without damaging his own standing.

I just don't think he can or will get past his reflexive SJW position. His statement made it clear that he could see no points where he and Vox could come together.

He's too deep into the SJW mode. If he's been keeping up with current events he knows that none of his SJW tactics would work in a debate anyway. So he has nothing to gain (except perhaps pride, honor, and insight) and he doesn't understand those enough to value them. He cannot change any moderates minds, none of the SJW posturing or tactics work anymore with the sensible middle, truly undecideds. That's to say nothing of the more stalwart 'wolves'.

Even if he wanted to he couldn't change his sides mind. There's really nothing to gain except some insight and he doesn't value that.

Anonymous Peter Pan April 12, 2015 11:11 PM  

bob k. mando: "Martin's error was saying Vox's name out loud. for, you see, he has now summoned Vox to his demesne. and, as we all know, Vox is not so easily exorcised."

Voxemor--er, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, strikes again!

Anonymous Orville April 12, 2015 11:17 PM  

Steve, you made me laugh with "George RR Martin is the real hero here. Like a human colostomy bag filled with piping hot courage."

G. RailRoad Martin will has been derailed. He will not debate. I'll bet Scalzi is slowly backing out of the room now that Georgie is in the spot light.

Anonymous Sun Xhu April 12, 2015 11:17 PM  

I was a bit disappointed by Brad Torgerson's milquetoast posts there. Typical "moderate" "Please don't hurt me, I'm not like him!" tripe.

Brad, you will never be invited to GRRM's parties, as "once an enemy always an outsider", especially those who surrender to the warren.

Anonymous Alexander April 12, 2015 11:20 PM  

Brad, you will never be invited to GRRM's parties

Well to be fair... given what we know from his writing this isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Blogger Nate April 13, 2015 12:01 AM  

The roof... the roof.. the roof is on fire. We don't need no water let the mother fucker burn. Burn mother fucker. Burn.

Blogger IM2L844 April 13, 2015 12:17 AM  

Obama and bush never went about debating city councilmen.

They would have, had the city councilmen been nominated to run for the president award.

Blogger Stan Hai April 13, 2015 12:18 AM  

I'm a little late to this party-can someone explain how calling someone a "half-savage" is racist? A savage is an ignorant, uncouth, barbaric, violent person (things that the Left calls the Right nearly every chance they get.) Is it because the woman in question is black and blacks used to be savages? Well, weren't all races savages at one time? To insist that Vox MUST have been referring to her blackness when there is no indication of his intent to be racist is to imply that only black people are still savages-which sounds pretty racist-shame on the SJW's!

Blogger The Original Hermit April 13, 2015 12:23 AM  

"Best $40 I've ever spent, and the awards aren't even till August."

The entertainment value I'm getting out of this, I would pay for a $40/month subscription.

Every night for the last week has been pretty much the same:
Me: *Reading on my tablet, laughing quietly to myself*
Wife: What?
Me: Sad Puppies again.
Wife: Oh. *goes back to watching TV*

Blogger Jim April 13, 2015 12:33 AM  

"The law of equals refers to status, not intrinsic qualities. Vox is not I'm Martin's league. Why should Martin stoop?"

Martin stepped in Vox's field already. He's now quickly trying to run off it. The only way to avoid damage is to engage and defeat Vox, which is something both GRRM and Vox know he cannot do.

OpenID luagha April 13, 2015 12:38 AM  

Yes, Martin is the one who requested the debate. He shouldn't have, but he did.

Never box a boxer, never wrestle a wrestler.

Anonymous Lana April 13, 2015 12:43 AM  

"Brad, you will never be invited to GRRM's parties, as "once an enemy always an outsider", especially those who surrender to the warren."

You sell him short. He knows that and was clear about it in the comment I read. Perhaps he would like to go back to being a moderate after taking all this heat. Many would. He's smart enough to realize, however, that there is no going back.

Blogger Zimri April 13, 2015 12:51 AM  

1. Brad, you will never be invited to GRRM's parties

2. Well to be fair... given what we know from his writing this isn't necessarily a bad thing.


An old guy telling long meandering stories that don't go anywhere? I can hear some of those at the local pub. I don't have to drive all the way to Santa Fe for that.

Blogger Zimri April 13, 2015 12:57 AM  

When in fact NK Jemisin is *more* Homo sapiens than someone with significant caucasian ancestry, as you well know, Vox

Vox is Amerind, therefore Siberian-American.

... mind you, that just amplifies your point - given that the Asians are more Neanderthal than are Euros, and this before we even get into that extra para-Neanderthal "Denisovan" admixture...

Blogger GK Chesterton April 13, 2015 12:58 AM  

BTW, as this goes forward Vox I suggest we look at the rules of the business meeting. See:
http://www.wsfs.org/bm/sr-2014.html

Rule 7.3 is probably going to be useful to force things to slow down and make sure the loudest voices don't carry the room. It halts a voice vote if 10% (this is usually just a "significant" number in most meetings of this kind) demand it. I'd appreciate if others took a look.

Anonymous rho April 13, 2015 1:21 AM  

I bailed on reading VD fiction early; and I bailed on GRRM fiction within one episode of his TV show. (I never read his fiction.)

There is no scenarios where GRRM and VD are on opposite sides where it works out well for their readers. Get your shit together.

Blogger Ken April 13, 2015 1:24 AM  

Peter Pan,
I think it's more akin to saying "Beetlejuice" three times. Invoke Vox too often and - poof! - he pays attention. Or perhaps the original is more accurate: "Speak of the Devil, and he doth appear."

Fits with the whole "Evil Lord of Evil" motif.

Blogger Ken April 13, 2015 1:40 AM  

*
"Supreme Dark Lord of the Evil Legion of Evil"

Pardon, Vox; I used the incorrect title

Blogger Jim April 13, 2015 1:59 AM  

"Damage? Of what sort? I mean really. Damage? John and Jane Doe will no longer buy Martin's books because he didn't debate someone there never heard of, let alone never heard about the debate challenge?"

It's cute that you think GRRM is doing this to sell books. Which he isn't writing.

Anonymous wEz April 13, 2015 2:22 AM  

God I love this blog.
It never ceases to amaze me how many intelligent people fall prey to their emotions over sound logic. One would think they would be smart enough to understand the pitfall. Anyway, its time to see GRRM dance!!

Blogger Corvinus April 13, 2015 2:42 AM  

You sell him short. He knows that and was clear about it in the comment I read. Perhaps he would like to go back to being a moderate after taking all this heat. Many would. He's smart enough to realize, however, that there is no going back.

Ahh, I just love the smell of fresh crispy moderate in the mornin'.

Anonymous Bz April 13, 2015 3:33 AM  

GRRM backs down. Well, that was quick. Chuckle.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus April 13, 2015 3:38 AM  

George Martin is disappointed in the "people on MY SIDE, the trufans and SMOFs and good guys". They are in a shambles, as he sees. They confirm with their every act that the Puppies are right and the Hugos were rigged.

It's time for the great man to show them how it's done. Otherwise why is he great, if HIS SIDE is thrashed and he can do nothing?

This is about ego, and status. Those are the stakes, and not small ones.

George Martin identified Vox Day as the main enemy, and recited a powerful spell, one that had brought victory to social justice warriors many times. But the wizard did not understand the spell; he had not gathered all the right ingredients. The spell fizzled. Vox's "moderate conservative" allies should have leaped on him, denouncing, abjuring, screaming abuse. Instead, they have at most done a slightly nervous dance of "who me? Rein in him? You're kidding, right?"

How to continue the combat thus initiated? The great wizard issued an invitation to debate, which, on the assumption that it was refused, was to demonstrate the intellectual inferiority of the bad-thinker.

The invitation was accepted. Repeatedly. Eagerly.

The outer parts of the dueling field are filling up with Dread Ilk, setting up their tents, sun-shades and deck chairs, polishing the lenses on their binoculars (so wide is the crowd), setting out cool drinks with parasols, and inviting everybody in the world to watch this, but not to drink anything near a keyboard while watching George Martin try to make his case. A slow chant begins: "COME SEE! COME SEE!"

What now, great wizard George? What now?

Blogger Ghost April 13, 2015 4:01 AM  

The only thing missing from his preening was a "mi'lady."

Seriously, what does he imagine "must be done" about the problem of Vox? They already tried to kick him out of their clubhouse, and he responded by taking over their awards. He started his own publishing house, so he can't be silenced. No matter who "denounces" him, from Scalzi to Medved, he comes out unfazed. What else can possibly be done about this problem?

If you were a feminist, you could count that as one of your rape/death threats.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus April 13, 2015 4:07 AM  

Ghost: "Seriously, what does he imagine "must be done" about the problem of Vox?"

"That's what we need. Fandom, our country, our world. There will always be haters, that's part of human nature. There will always be toads. But we do not need to tolerate them. Yes, I do believe in free speech, we should all be free to say whatever we want... but not without consequences. And if your free speech is hatespeech, if you want to exercise your freedom by denouncing black people as savages, suggesting that gays should be raped straight, or calling down rape and acid attacks on writers whose books displeased you, you should not be surprised when you are shunned, abandoned, and denounced by all decent human beings.

I want to be a part of a culture that has NO tolerance for death threats, rape threats, or hatespeech. We are better than that.

Aren't we?"

Anonymous 141 April 13, 2015 4:08 AM  

I watched one episode of A Game of Thrones, saw some incest and a midget, combined that data point with the gist of what i've heard of it(nihilism), and filed it away as irrelevant and pointless.

I just checked Martin's twitter to see how many followers he has (80k), but the more interesting thing was going through his pictures. Ninety percent were Martin gloating about his propensity to kill characters. Because that's what real life is like. Well no shit you fat fuck, but how much of a one note nincompoop do you have to be to be able to tolerate writing thousands of pages of the same pointless shit? Must be all the attention he's finally getting. Or the incest.

Blogger Kallmunz April 13, 2015 4:11 AM  

The fact that Martin appealed to the puppies to drop Vox after Brad already explained that Vox is not under his control proves that Martin isn't even paying attention to the debate.
There is no way Martin could possible debate Vox, it would be a slaughter and he knows it.
What Martin should do now is put up a post begging time for the work he has to do on his next novel and drop the subject. George, if you know what is good for you, walk away. If you don't, you're only going to amuse us.

Blogger Krul April 13, 2015 4:21 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger W.LindsayWheeler April 13, 2015 4:23 AM  

Tacitus, your comment of April 13, 2015 3:38 AM was right on! What brilliant play and insight!

How to continue the combat thus initiated? The great wizard issued an invitation to debate, which, on the assumption that it was refused, was to demonstrate the intellectual inferiority of the bad-thinker.

Rabbitology.

Anonymous Truman Chipotle April 13, 2015 7:45 AM  

"Yes, I do believe in free speech, we should all be free to say whatever we want... but not without consequences. And if your free speech is hatespeech..."

We'll dispense with the obvious first: there is of course no such thing as "hate speech" as a category in relationship to free speech.

But the thing that always keeps me awake at night is: what is this business about "consequences," and why are they so obsessed with it? The "consequences" of making a controversial statement are, somebody reads it, mulls it over, and decides whether they think it's true or not. If they think it's bullshit, maybe they write a scathing reply. Game over. They reveal their true colors with their obsessive dream of punishing people for what they say or think, while at the same time endlessly weeping over the Hollywood Ten.

They have no principles, none. Always remember that.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan April 13, 2015 8:23 AM  

Stick to debating SF/F in the gamergate model of being free to write what you want to write, read what you want to read and to award those who produce the best, not what some ideological kook cult wants rewarded.

As for debating "racism", please if you won't go for disqualification right off the bat then don't go there. GM sounds like another mind meandering old kook whose brain has been marinated in that stupid as hell white guilt propaganda. Where "racism" means white and nothing more, nothing.

Blogger Nate April 13, 2015 8:25 AM  

The roof... the roof.. the roof is on fire. We don't need no water let the mother fucker burn. Burn mother fucker. Burn.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza April 13, 2015 8:45 AM  

WEz, its not emotion, its sheer rational disgust for SJWermcjizzlers.

Anonymous wEz April 13, 2015 9:48 AM  

I think you misunderstood me LP. The emotion over logic comment was in reference to SJW's, and those that drink their cool-aid, like Martin.
I'm sure most of the ilk here are very rational level-headed people, but since we have a different worldview and don't toe-the-line on "progressive" nonsense, we're branded racist, misogynist, homophobic bigots, toads, etc.

Anonymous Shut up rabbit April 13, 2015 10:27 AM  

we're branded racist, misogynist, homophobic bigots, toads, etc.

Ah, good old critical theory. Good job that cultural marxism is just a conspiracy theory toted by tin-hat wearing red-necks.

Blogger Feather Blade April 13, 2015 11:23 AM  

At first I was inclined to disapprove of the strategy of provoking SJWs to anger and so to miscalculation and overreaction with provocatively phrased statements like "NK Jemisin and I are not equally Homo sapiens" (When in fact NK Jemisin is *more* Homo sapiens than someone with significant caucasian ancestry, as you well know, Vox).

That's the point - Vox says that Jemisin is more homo sapiens than he is, and phrases it in such a way that the SJWs assume that he is calling her less human (because of their own Darwinian assumptions that brown people are lower on the evolutionary ladder), and counterattack accordingly, thus opening themselves up to whole host of embarrassing counter-points.

It's elegant, really.

Blogger tweell April 13, 2015 12:32 PM  

Brave Sir Martin ran away.
("No!")
Bravely ran away away.
("I didn't!")
When danger reared it's ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
("no!")
Yes, brave Sir Martin turned about
("I didn't!")
And gallantly he chickened out.

****Bravely**** taking ("I never did!") to his feet,
He beat a very brave retreat.
("all lies!")
Bravest of the braaaave, Sir Martin!
("I never!")

Yes, I went there.

Blogger Foster April 13, 2015 12:52 PM  

@malcolmthecynic

"Those two statements don't contradict each other."

Did I say they contradicted one another?

Blogger Calvin Dodge April 13, 2015 2:50 PM  

Isn't the correct term "Evil League of Evil"?

Blogger ScuzzaMan April 13, 2015 2:53 PM  

"... you will likely end up hearing my name a lot more often if you run away than if you do not."

Boomshanka.

Blogger automatthew April 13, 2015 3:12 PM  

"I will not provide a death threat or help with moving expenses or a truck for anyone who feels compelled to flee their homes. My generosity is not limitless."

Loki's back?

Anonymous n.o.o.c. April 13, 2015 4:40 PM  

Torer is Tad. His comments were spammed, and any replying to him were deleted.

You guys really need to learn not to respond to trolls.

Anonymous n.o.o.c. April 13, 2015 4:41 PM  

kh123, however, gets applause.

OpenID cailcorishev April 13, 2015 4:52 PM  

Is it appropriate to point Tad out when we spot him early, to help others avoid feeding him, or is that too much playing into his desperate need for attention? I'm always torn on that one with trolls.

Anonymous n.o.o.c. April 13, 2015 5:46 PM  

You should, cailcorishev. Newer or less perspicacious folks, not so much.

There was a time when numerous commenters were calling out every anyone who annoyed them as Tad.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus April 14, 2015 3:29 AM  

n.o.o.c.: "You should, cailcorishev. Newer or less perspicacious folks, not so much."

That works.

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