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Monday, April 20, 2015

The end of Holocaustianity

I'm more than a little astonished that Israel's government is so willing to throw away the moral high ground here:
Israel does not plan to recognize the Armenian genocide perpetrated by Turkey, Rafael Harpaz, Israel's ambassador to Azerbaijan, told Azeri website Trend.

“Israel is a democratic country, everybody has two opinions, not one opinion,” Harpaz said. “The government has a very clear opinion.”

He said Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman had made Israel's policy clear. Harpaz told Trend he hoped Israel's troubled relations with Turkey would improve.
I suppose this decision makes sense from a geopolitical grand strategic point of view, kjkbut when seen through the Lind lense, it looks a lot more like a potentially disastrous move that could perhaps even be prosecuted in some European countries.

It seems to me that this will make Holocaust denial much easier to justify.

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122 Comments:

Blogger SirThermite April 20, 2015 2:25 AM  

Their ancestors killed all the Prophets, including Jesus (by forcing the Roman governor's hand) so why would they get bent out-of-shape by what some non-Jewsish goyim did to other non-Jewish goyim? If Israel or the U.S. really gave a damn about genocide, they'd have to get involved in Darfur..."ain't nobody got time for that"

Blogger SirThermite April 20, 2015 2:39 AM  

Not that I blame whites or Jews for the Arab Muslims raping and murdering black Christians. Few of the evils in the world can be chalked up to so-called white privilege or Jewish conspiracy. But I do note the hypocrisy of both white and Jewish SJW's. They're like the white knight aspie in high school who only puts himself on the line for a couple chick he's actually attracted to,while claiming to care about everyone equally..

Blogger Ken April 20, 2015 2:47 AM  

Until I lived in Los Angeles (specifically Glendale), I thought "Armenians" were Protestants who were against Calvinism. Hadn't even heard about the genocide until last year.

Blogger Jew613 April 20, 2015 2:48 AM  

This isnt anything new. Israel has always had this policy. Beyond the alliance with Turkey, there is still a Jewish population in Turkey. If Israel were to recognize the Armenian genocide the Turkish Jews would be in danger.

SirThermite, very few prophets were ever murdered, and obviously we do not view Jesus as a prophet. The religious establishment was indifferent to Jesus. He was viewed as simply one of many with a small following convinced he was the Messiah.

Blogger Jew613 April 20, 2015 2:49 AM  

Also SirThermite, you dont need to write non-Jewish before Goyim. Writing Goyim, or goy is sufficient to establish someone is not Jewish.

Anonymous PhillipGeorge(c)2015 April 20, 2015 2:58 AM  

Is there any group these people wouldn't sell themselves to for perceived advantage?
Transorbital frontal lobotomy was once medical science, men with degrees in medicine and fine white laboratory coats demonstrated its ease and effectiveness.
Now its every other nation's self administered foreign policy.
Betraying Jesus the second time establishes the 'two witnesses' requisite in Mosaic Jurisprudence - aint that closed loop? Enough already. Denying the dead their identity is even illegal somewhere.

Anonymous RamBam Thank You Ma'am April 20, 2015 3:29 AM  

The religious establishment was indifferent to Jesus.

Are you referring to the Sanhedrin of his time? Pharisees like Rebbe Caiaphas?

Oy vey gevalt! Your chutzpah is off the charts!



Blogger Jew613 April 20, 2015 3:42 AM  

While Caiphas did exist there are basic flaws in the story. The Sanhedrin had already left the Lishkhat HaGhazit, the chamber of hewn stone. When they did this they gave up the power to hold trials. Under those circumstances trying Jesus for a crime would have been impossible. We do not accept Caiphas moved against Jesus. It should also be noted Caiphas himself was on the outs with the Sanhedrin leadership at the time.

Jesus is not mentioned in any capacity in the Gemara. We do not believe the story as told in the gospels that Jesus was in a struggle against the religious establishment. There were many false messiahs at the time. Jesus was viewed as simply one more, and not even one of particular prominence. I am not saying this to insult. Simply to relate the Jewish view, passed on from the mesorah. We do not hate or love Jesus we are simply indifferent to him.

Blogger SirThermite April 20, 2015 3:53 AM  

"Goy (English /ɡɔɪ/, Hebrew: גוי‎, regular plural goyim /ˈɡɔɪɪm/, גוים or גויים) is the standard Hebrew biblical term for a "nation", including that of Israel. Long before Roman times it had also acquired the meaning of someone who is not Jewish. The latter is also its meaning in Yiddish."

Blogger Rek. April 20, 2015 3:55 AM  

"We do not hate or love Jesus we are simply indifferent to him."

The same way you - your political representatives - are indifferent to the Armenian genocide. 1.3 million deaths isn't enough, I suppose. Too bad the rest of the world can't be indifferent to the Holocaust. "I am not saying this to insult."

Blogger Sherwood family April 20, 2015 4:00 AM  

This whole issue is complicated by defensive postures of Israel and Azerbaijan. I lived in Azerbaijan from 2012-2014 and worked for the U.S. Embassy in Baku.

Azerbaijan is a Turkic nation but religiously they are Shia like their Iranian neighbors to the south. Because of the religous simularity/continuity/ with their neighbors, the secular Azerbaijani government fears the Iranian religious influence. add to the fact that around 40% of the Iranian population speaks Azeri as their first language compared with Farsi/Persian, and you have a group of people well suited to using religion, discontent with the government, and their cultural-linguistic ties to Azerbaijan as a way of undermining the country and consolidating de-facto Iranian control. Because of that the current Azerbaijani government is paranoid about Iran. (They are also paranoid about Russia, their northern neighbor.) So they work closely with Israel on defensive and intelligence issues to try to blunt any advantage the Iranians may try to get over them.

The Israelis are happy to have a proxy in the region that allows them or their chosen agents entry into or out of Iran. Azerbaijanis can travel into Iran. It is widely believed that it was an Azerbaijani with a thumb drive that brought the Stuxnet virus (allegedly Israeli and U.S. in origin) into Iran to foul up the country's centrifuge system with the thing.

The salient fact in all of this is that the Azerbaijanis and the Armenians hate each other with a white hot passion because of the Nagorno-Karabakh war that began in the early 90's. It was this ethnic and territorial dispute that helped show that the Soviet Union did not really have as much control over their individual republics as everyone thought they had. When things got out of hand in Nagorno-Karabakh it put paid to that reputation.

The long and the short of it is that both the Armenian and the Azerbaijani sides tried to claim and hold the territory with atrocities on both sides. From the Armenian perspective it was Turkic types doing what they always do Christians in the region.
From the Azerbaijani side it was territorial theft of a piece of land that belonged to Azerbaijan during the Soviet Era.

In any case, the Azerbaijanis and Armenians hate each other intensely, despite that fact that they intermarried and lived in each other's territories during the Soviet Era.

But you would never know it now. So basically, the Israelis have no reason to recognize the Armenian Genocide because it would anger the Azerbaijanis who 1) hate Armenia and Armenians as a result of the Nagorno-Karabakh war and 2) because they have deep Turkish cultural ties that make a slight against Turkey feel like a slight against them. Azerbaijan is to valuable for Israel vis-a-vis the Iranians and the Israelis gain nothing by recognizing the Armenian Genocide while they very much stand to lose things if they do.

The Armenians are trapped between Turkey on the west and Azerbaijan on the east with Georgia to the north and Iran to the south. They have trade relations with the Georgians and the Iranians because the other two neighbors will have nothing to do with them and they are still angry about the Genocide and the Nagorno-Karabakh war. So Armenian cooperation with Iran (fairly limited) unnerves the Israelis and that is another reason why they have no interest in recognizing the Genocide.

Blogger SirThermite April 20, 2015 4:01 AM  

Where's ThorDaddy to explain how not all goyim are non-Jewish supremacists? You had one job, Thordaddy!

Anonymous RamBam Thank You Ma'am April 20, 2015 4:11 AM  

Jesus was viewed as simply one more, and not even one of particular prominence.

The existence of the Toldot Yeshu, and passages regarding "Yeshu" in the Torah SheBeal Peh would indicate otherwise.

Come now, Jew613, not all us goyim are easily fooled by your flavor of abracadabra hasbara.

Anonymous The Obvious April 20, 2015 4:13 AM  

There's a reason they deny it, put "Jewish Young Turks" in your search engine and see what happens.

Blogger Jew613 April 20, 2015 4:16 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Jew613 April 20, 2015 4:17 AM  

Toldot Yeshua was a medievel polemic work. Not from the time of Jesus but centuries later. It was an attack on Christianity in response to the persecution of the period and attempts to convert Jews to Christianity.

Also your going to have to point out these passages referencing yeshu in the Torah SheBaal Peh.

Anonymous FrankNorman April 20, 2015 5:04 AM  

Are you referring to the Sanhedrin of his time? Pharisees like Rebbe Caiaphas?

Point-of-order, Caiaphas was a Sadducee, not a Pharisee. Different sect.
And he was also a priest, not a rabbi.

It's an easy mistake to make though, given that the Sadducees and the Levite priesthood they controlled have gone into history.

The Gospel of John makes it plain that the Sadducees (who probably didn't give a toss about Jesus' arguments with the Pharisees over Scripture vs Tradition, since they didn't accept the body of traditions that later became the "Talmud" either) moved against Him primarily because they feared that He would, if He gained enough of a following, have attempted an armed revolt against the Romans.

The Sadducee ruling elite believed (rightly, as later events showed) that any such independence movement would not only have failed, but have lead to the destruction of their precious Temple.

For the Sadducees, losing the Temple was "Game over, man! Game over!" whereas for the early Christians and their Pharisee opponents alike, it was something they could survive without.

OpenID simplytimothy April 20, 2015 6:00 AM  

. So basically, the Israelis have no reason to recognize the Armenian Genocide because it would anger the Azerbaijanis who 1) hate Armenia and Armenians as a result of the Nagorno-Karabakh war and 2) because they have deep Turkish cultural ties that make a slight against Turkey feel like a slight against them.

So basically, the X's have no reason to recognize the holocaust because it would anger the Y who 1) .... 2) .... 3) ....

Blogger kudzu bob April 20, 2015 6:04 AM  

The Israelis did not "throw away" the moral high ground, they sold it for a profit despite their lack of ownership.

Anonymous Heh April 20, 2015 6:06 AM  

If they start admitting other Holocausts exist, that will make their own Holocaust less special and important!

Blogger Sherwood family April 20, 2015 6:22 AM  

Simplytimothy, I am making no argument about the Israeli moral position vis-a-vis the Armenian Genocide. I am only explaining what the policy constraints on recognizing it are. There has long been a certain hypocrisy related to the Armenian Genocide on the part of the Israelis. For a nation founded by a group of people who believed that genocide was the end all be all when it came to suffering, they have been curiously unwilling to call this episode a genocide. At first it was likely because of close relations with Turkey and now, since those relations have soured, because of the need to maintain close relations with the Azerbaijanis. It does not help that Armenians have not historically been particularly philo-Semitic, especially when compared with their Georgian neighbors.

OpenID simplytimothy April 20, 2015 6:25 AM  

@Jew613

A simple google of Jesus and Caiaphas gives this link https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_1314.cfm

Where there is a bit more subtlety than presented in your comment given the relationship between Annas and Caiaphas.

Do any people who are out of political office immediately stop having influence in the political affairs related to that office?

Do you think it wise that I trust your comment over that link as settling the matter?

Bear in mind, that this is day 0 of my introduction to the Jewish perspective on this guy Caiaphas; I have given the story's legitimacy no thought until this first cup of coffee and your comment.

Will your argument get convincing as the day goes by? or would my time be betters spent studying some scholars?

The wieght of your comment suggests the latter. Am I wrong?


Blogger W.LindsayWheeler April 20, 2015 6:28 AM  

All very great comments. Enjoyed reading Sherwood Forest. Someone with knowledge of the area and Frank Norman's comments. Great thread.

The Armenian Genocide is just that--an historical event. How anybody can refuse to acknowledge an historical event is beyond me. Despite all the political ramifications, an event is an event.

I would like to add that the Royal Russian Family's execution was a genocide. The Russian Royal Family was genocided by the ruling Jewish ideologues. It was a Jew that led the firing squad. Shooting women and children?

I would like to see Israel and the Jews take responsibility for the genocide of the Russian Royal Family. And since they don't, we shouldn't recognize Holocaustinity either.

No Christian should visit these so-called "holocaust" museums until they first visited the Museum of the Genocide of the Russian Royal Family. Until Jews visit and do penance for that, no Christian should visit these White guilt tripping shams. Actually, everyone of these ought to be torn down.

Jesus laid out, "Do unto others as you want others to do unto you".

Well, the Jews genocided the Russian Royal Christian Family, it is only karma that they should also be genocided.

Blogger J Curtis April 20, 2015 6:29 AM  

Hi Vox. I hope it's not wildly OT but as it just so happens, if we're going to discuss comparative genocides, I was made aware of another one this morning that I must admit that I was previously uninformed about.

"The Indian historian Professor K.S. Lal estimates that the Hindu population in India decreased by 80 million between 1000 AD and 1525 AD, an extermination unparalleled in World history. This slaughter of millions of people occurred over regular periods during many centuries of Arab, Afghan, Turkish and Mughal rule in India." Link

OpenID simplytimothy April 20, 2015 6:31 AM  

@SirThermite

You are making an assertion of historical fact on a blog post where the subject is the official subversion of historical fact for political purposes.

If such a lie--for that is what it is, a lie--is occurring among official in Jewish high political office, why must I presume that today's news is the first time it has happened ?

I would be a fool to do so, wouldn't I?



Blogger Sherwood family April 20, 2015 6:42 AM  

W. LindsayWheeler, thank you for the compliment. Question: at what point does participation for religious adherents translate into an event having a religious motivation? I think arguing that the murder of the Russian Royal Family was a Jewish act, motivated by a specifically Jewish ideology is tenuous. Where there Jews involved...certainly...but did the act have a specific "Jewish" character to it? I am less certain. In the same way that Christians where part of the Nazi machine that killed Jews, I think it would be wrong to argue that the killing of Jews in the Holocaust had a "Christian" character to it. Were Christians involved...undoubtedly. But the ideologies that motivated those that carried out the acts were not Judaism or even tribal Jewishness in the case of the Russian Royal Family nor where they Christianity in the case of Jews being killed during the Holocaust.

What one can say, and say very definitiely, is that in the case of the Bolshevik Revolution Jews were overly represented as a percentage of the population.

This is not a surprise since revolutionary movements typically bring in disenfranchised portions of the population. Jews in the Russian Empire were a marginalized population. When movements arose to try to get some of their "own" back they joined up in droves.

The same is true when one looks at the Middle East. The Baathist Party and movement come to mind. The Baathists were a political regime/ethnic identity (Pan-Arabist) intended to replace the default Muslim supremacy in politics in the Syria and later in Iraq. The Baath party was found by a Christian, Michel Aflaq, as a way of creating a space where Christians as a marginalized minority could gain and hold political power since the prevailing Islamic character of society typically kept them shut out. That Baathism morphed into a blood thirsty ideology is not surprising but it is not due to the Christian background of its founder.

Blogger Josh April 20, 2015 6:59 AM  

I would like to add that the Royal Russian Family's execution was a genocide.

I don't think that's what genocide means...

Anonymous PhillipGeorge(c)2015 April 20, 2015 7:25 AM  

quite right, genocide is adolescent fantasy. Races don't exist so how can a war be waged against them.
I hope this grips you.
Jew613 is proof the Tanakh is real, living.
I am proof the gospel is accurate/ happened.

If it weren't for the veracity of the Tanakh Jew613 wouldn't be here.
If it weren't for the veracity of the New Testament, I wouldn't be here.
... not entirely the same,, Muhammad's jinn were real, and entirely wrong.
I trust the summary satisfies. The Islamic political empire has been the most brutal of them all. It's a shame so few historians turn up for the battle.

Anonymous zen0 April 20, 2015 7:38 AM  

So Israel is sucking up to Turkey, and Turkey is dreaming of establishing a Greater Turkey that includes all the Turkic speaking nations, including Azerbaijan, probably leading to more conflict with Armenia, which may lead to a second Armenian holocaust.

Will Israel notice then?

Blogger Sherwood family April 20, 2015 7:44 AM  

PhillipGeorge(c)2015: I am not sure I follow what you intend by your comment. Races may be blurry along the edges but they exist.

I am not sure you can make the argument that the Islamic political empire has been the most brutal of them all. I think it depends on what criteria you are using to make that assertion. If I had to pick the most brutal regime that killed piles of people for ideological reasons it would probably be Maoist China or possible the Khmer Rouge under Pol Pot. Very large death tolls, very ideologically driven, vast percentages of the populations killed.

I think there is no argument that Islamic regimes have certainly killed a great number of people specifically in the name of Islam. Although, it gets sketchy at a certain point. Is the ruler invoking Islam because that is why he wishes to conquer the neighbors or is he using Islam as justification for his own enrichment with no real interest in actually converting anyone to the faith? Is he just rallying the troops or is he a true believer? For many rulers it is hard to tell from the historical record. Other cases, are of course, much more clear cut.

In any case, arguments that the Crusades were vicious Christians setting upon Muslims who were simply minding their business or that the Reconquista was brutal to some beleaguered Islamic magic kingdom of enlightened rulers and SCIENCE and tolerance are nonsense and the fact that people believe any of it is a testament to just how anti-Western Civilization the narrative has gotten.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan April 20, 2015 7:57 AM  

Probably only the hoary old Jew baiting can save the Holocaust. My guess it has about 1 generation before it starts to get censored out of the narrative. It was a luxury cause for Baby Boomers and their politicians.

Now everyone with a hint of political talent can be officially "disappointed" in the Israelis political decision. I guess more money to Stormfront then, or Duke, maybe they can extend the Holocaust's political usefulness.

Blogger Sherwood family April 20, 2015 7:58 AM  

Israel is not likely sucking up to Turkey at this point. The two countries have had ever worsening relations. Things came to a head a few years ago when a flotilla of ships headed to bring "relief" to Gaza ran afoul of Israeli commandos who boarded the ships and killed a couple of Turks. Erdogan (who fancies himself the second-coming of Suleiman the Magnificent) was livid and relations have been pretty poor since then. The Azerbaijanis, on the other hand, are very close with the Israelis and have even told the Turks to pound sand from time to time when the Turks have pressured the Azerbaijanis to downgrade the relationship.

Armenia is an a pathetic situation. They hold a tiny sliver of their historic territory. The population that survived the Genocide either left for the West or was folded under Soviet rule shortly after the end of WWI. They are a people of great intelligence and education and have done well in the U.S. generally speaking. But Armenia is a very poor country with little in the way of exportable resources and hostile neighbors. If I remember the statistic correctly, in 2011 Azerbaijan spent more on defense than Armenia spent for the entirety of its budget.

One hopes for the best for that country and for better relations between it and its neighbors.

Blogger Chris Mallory April 20, 2015 8:03 AM  

And in the US , the director of the FeeBI is making this comment:

"I believe that the Holocaust is the most significant event in human history. ....I require every new FBI special agent and intelligence analyst to go to the Holocaust Museum."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-scariest-lesson-of-the-holocaust/2015/04/16/ffa8e23c-e468-11e4-905f-cc896d379a32_story.html

The Poles got upset over some of his other statements in the same essay.

Anonymous Steveo April 20, 2015 8:06 AM  

@Jew613

and of course, merely waiting for someone else to fulfill the same prophecies regarding Him.

Anonymous PhillipGeorge(c)2015 April 20, 2015 8:21 AM  

for Sherwood. All humans can breed. There are no species. Race isn't blurry. It doesn't exist. There are no incongruous independent lines of evolution. Genetic drift/ genetic entropy.. Man, aka Humanity is one family. The bible isn't an accident, roughly true. We are all roughly devolved into the same states of decay.

Anonymous Alexander April 20, 2015 8:34 AM  

Never again!*





*Will we allow uncomfortable historical symmetry to our own historical grievances interfere with our realpolitik.

Anonymous Tom April 20, 2015 8:47 AM  

"It seems to me that this will make Holocaust denial much easier to justify."

Vox, did you put this line in this post to specifically see how long it would take the SJW crowd to start accusing you of denying the Holocaust ever happened? (Whether or not it should be influencing current American policy being a totally different question...)

Blogger Sherwood family April 20, 2015 8:52 AM  

PhillipGeorge: I do not disagree with the statement that all humans can breed. We may not have species but we have distinct difference that are visible at a genotypical and phenotypical level. Those difference aggregate around certain larger groupings with considerable variation along the edges and with plenty of interbreeding along the edges.

However, when you say that race does not exist that sounds more like a semantic distinction than a genetic one. We can, by looking at genes alone, make very clear determinations about an individuals ancestry and phenotype. The notion of race is clearly not a perfect rubric it exists to describe what is a very clear phenomenon.

I agree that humanity is one family. But in the same way that my cousins look different than my siblings and I, there are clear distinctions between groups based on their genetic heritage.

I also agree that the Bible is true. It was not written, however, as a biology manual. It is more important than that. The details of biology pale compared to the message of God to mankind throughout the ages.

Anonymous George April 20, 2015 9:01 AM  

I'm getting in the habit of reading Vox on two levels: first, on the actual content of his ideas, and second, on the tactical plane. This makes reading even more fun than it was before.

Blogger YIH April 20, 2015 9:04 AM  

Jew613:
The religious establishment was indifferent to Jesus.
Care to explain the whole 'Jesus is boiling in hot excrement' thing?

Anonymous bored April 20, 2015 9:12 AM  

@Jew613
Then Maimonides is a liar? The Jews killed both Jesus and Paul and there is no mention of Roman involvement in their murders at all.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Epistle_to_Yemen/Complete
"The first one to have adopted this plan was Jesus the Nazarene, may his bones be ground to dust. He was a Jew because his mother was a Jewess although his father was a Gentile. For in accordance with the principles of our law, a child born of a Jewess and a Gentile, or of a Jewess and a slave, is legitimate. (Yebamot 45a). Jesus is only figuratively termed an illegitimate child. He impelled people to believe that he was a prophet sent by God to clarify perplexities in the Torah, and that he was the Messiah that was predicted by each and every seer. He interpreted the Torah and its precepts in such a fashion as to lead to their total annulment, to the abolition of all its commandments and to the violation of its prohibitions. The sages, of blessed memory, having become aware of his plans before his reputation spread among our people, meted out fitting punishment to him."

Anonymous bored April 20, 2015 9:16 AM  

@ YIH
Dude, there's two links you'd be interested in :
The first one is -
http://www.come-and-hear.com/
It has almost all the entire Talmud posted online (among other books concerning Rabbinical Judaism).

The second one is -
http://www.daatemet.org/
Check out the "Gentiles in Halacha" section. Good times!

Blogger JohnG April 20, 2015 9:29 AM  

Politics, for sure. Still kinda sh*tty. I don't know if the omission in hopes that Jews abroad will be left alone is even worth the effort. laying low and keeping quiet don't seem to working out well for a lot of religious minorities lately.

Blogger Jew613 April 20, 2015 9:33 AM  

Simplytimothy, annas and his sons held did hold the office of Cohen Gadol, high priest. But they were sadduceem, a faction that denied the oral law. They were in conflict with the perushim who accepted the oral law. The Sanhedrin was strictly controlled by the perushim. They would not have worked together. In fact the prayer against heretics was added to the shemonah esrei specifically against the sadduceem

Blogger Jew613 April 20, 2015 9:41 AM  

YIH, yeshu was a common name the passage you are referencing is not about Jesus.

Iggeret Tai man was written in a time of intense oppression and is written in a manner to strengthen the community. Much of it is not literal.

But honestly while Jesus was not an important figure he was a kofer. He's not going to be popular. Particularly when the Christians and Jews were often in conflict with the Christians usually winning.

Blogger Shimshon April 20, 2015 9:45 AM  

YIH, I have not learned Gittin, but I learned Kesubos, and there is an almost identical exchange recorded. However, I don't think it was "Yeshu" who was the Jewish sufferer, but someone else.

Bored, whatever "meted out fitting punishment to him" means, since the Sanhedrin, as was pointed out, was powerless to mete out the death penalty. And besides which, crucifixion was a Roman form of punishment.

Christians do seem to be unusually interested in "debating" the subject. How about sticking to the topic of "holocaustianity?"

Anonymous Eric Ashley April 20, 2015 9:54 AM  

As a philo-semite, this decision looks unwise.

Blogger bob k. mando April 20, 2015 10:06 AM  

PhillipGeorge(c)2015 April 20, 2015 8:21 AM
for Sherwood. All humans can breed. There are no species.


while the definition of 'species' is not cut and dried
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species_problem

there can be no question that there ARE sub-species of man, just as there are sub-species of dog.

Anonymous JI April 20, 2015 10:14 AM  

Prosecuted? How could one be prosecuted for refusing to call (what I think actually is) genocide by that same word? That is insane.

Anonymous FrankNorman April 20, 2015 10:15 AM  

Shimshon April 20, 2015 9:45 AM
Christians do seem to be unusually interested in "debating" the subject. How about sticking to the topic of "holocaustianity?"


Does it really seem "unusual" to you that Christians respond to defend the Gospel accounts when someone denies them?

Blogger Rabbi B April 20, 2015 10:30 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Donn April 20, 2015 10:31 AM  

PhillipGeorge(c)2015 - So wolves, dogs, coyotes, and jackals are all the same species?

Blogger Rabbi B April 20, 2015 10:31 AM  

"It seems to me that this will make Holocaust denial much easier to justify.'

So be it. "Holocaust denial" is just one more way for people to express their animosity, indifference, or baseless hatred. Let them. Wherever there's oxygen there will be Jews and wherever there are Jews there will be people who hate them.

The real question is whether or not we are living in such a way that the hatred is commendable in the eyes of Hashem rather than contemptible and well-deserved. Along with many other tragedies in our history, the Shoah is one more opportunity to show the world what it looks like to suffer well for His Name's sake while demonstrating the grace and strength that He gives us to endure the troubles and trials that beset us.

Politicizing our tragedies to manufacture sympathy from the world around us means that we forfeit the opportunity for al kiddush Hashem as well as the opportunity to demonstrate to the world around us the reality of triumph through tragedy and that His power is manifest in our weakness.

Quietly suffering well for His Name's sake is commendable, whining about how enough people aren't paying sufficient attention to our suffering, not so much.

Anonymous Abie Gefiltefish April 20, 2015 10:33 AM  

"This isnt anything new. Israel has always had this policy. Beyond the alliance with Turkey, there is still a Jewish population in Turkey. If Israel were to recognize the Armenian genocide the Turkish Jews would be in danger."

That doesn't pass the sniff test. There are Jews living in and traveling to countries all over the Middle East, including Iran (the Great Satan). I don't see any particular Israeli restraint in verbally attacking those countries based on the safety of their Jewish residents/travelers. As Steve Sailer and others have noted, Iranian Jews regularly hop on planes in LA and travel back and forth to Iran to tend their family businesses and visit family back home. They do this in spite of the fact that Israel regularly attacks Iran as the ultimate evil nation. No apparent fear there.

Closer to home in the USA, Armenians have tried to teach the Armenian genocide in the various state-mandated goy high school holocaust/genocide classes but have met resistance from Jews. These Jewish resisters do not want to share the genocide limelight. From their perspective, it is better that goy high school kids weep for some visiting elderly Jewish lady with tattoos and hear about Auschwitz than some Armenian Christian talking about the Rape of Smyrna.

As far as Israeli sensitivity to the dangers of anti-semitism to Jews living abroad, I think Ariel Sharon is indicative. When French Jews started moaning about growing anti-semitism in France a few years ago, Ari, exasperated, told them there as a simple solution: make aliyah.

Given this, I think a more parsimonious explanation is that Israelis (and Jews generally) do not want to dilute the Holocaust/genocide brand, and calling the Armenian slaughter a "genocide" or "Holocaust" would definitely do that. To them, there has been no genocide that is superior to (or even equal to) the Shoah (tm).

That being said, I stand with Jews and Israelis. There is no reason for them to share the limelight or waste political capital getting into a battle between Muslim goys and Christian goys. The Israeli state exists to serve the Jewish people, not the goyim.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus April 20, 2015 10:47 AM  

Eric Ashley: "As a philo-semite, this decision looks unwise."

As a believer in Jewish superiority I have no doubts that organized Jewry has its reasons, and that Jews will still be here in three hundred years, and three thousand years, and in thirty thousand years, whereas whites have no such security.

It is funny that people of ephemeral races, while often showing tepid or no concern for the future of their own peoples, busy themselves teaching the Jews how to survive.

Blogger Josh April 20, 2015 10:59 AM  

The United States also opposes recognizing the Armenian genocide.

Anonymous fnn April 20, 2015 11:01 AM  

All humans can breed. There are no species. Race isn't blurry. It doesn't exist.

Wolf-coyote-dog hybrids are widespread:
Now three researchers—Javier Monzón of SUNY Stony Brook, Roland Kays of the North Carolina Museum of Natural Science, and Daniel Dykhuizen also at SUNY Stony Brook have investigated the genetic ancestry of 427 canids from Ohio and the eastern states above the Mason and Dixon Line and found that all are admixtures of wolves, dogs, and coyotes, with the wolves representing eastern and western subspecies of gray wolf, and with the Great Lakes serving as a mixing/contact zone. Their article, “Assessment of wolf-coyote-dog admixture using ancestry-informative diagnostic SNPs,” appears in the January 2014 issue of the journal Molecular Ecology (subscription required).

For their analysis of what they call the eastern coyote in recognition of its predominant genetic heritage, the researchers chose 63 single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPS) that have been proven good indicators of ancestry, meaning they are clearly associated with one species or population or another. Their results show that eastern canids are a mixtiure of coyotes (all initially from the West), eastern and western wolves, with the Algonquin wolf of Ontario representing the eastern population, and dogs.


...All the animals that the researchers sampled showed evidence of wolf-dog-coyote admixture although the percentages of each varied by area. The mixing was not uniform; Ohio’s canids, widely believed to be pure coyotes, were 24 percent wolf and 10 percent dog.

Blogger bob k. mando April 20, 2015 11:20 AM  

fnn April 20, 2015 11:01 AM
Wolf-coyote-dog hybrids are widespread:



while interesting, your post does not address his point: he draws the definition of 'species' so widely ( capable of interbreeding ) that, if he is logically consistent, he would say that dogs, wolves and coyotes are ALL THE SAME SPECIES.

he would likely also say that horses and donkeys are the same species and likewise for tigers and lions.

he smears the lines of differentiation and demarcation by saying, "We are all roughly devolved into the same states of decay." so, a lion is as 'roughly devolved' as a tiger.

Blogger automatthew April 20, 2015 11:28 AM  

while interesting, your post does not address his point: he draws the definition of 'species' so widely ( capable of interbreeding ) that, if he is logically consistent, he would say that dogs, wolves and coyotes are ALL THE SAME SPECIES.

This is why some of the saner creationists speak about "kinds", the idea being that God created distinct kinds of life forms that had the potential for variation/speciation to an astonishing degree. Species within a kind can often interbreed, but species of different kinds never can.

Blogger RobertT April 20, 2015 11:46 AM  

It seems to me that this will make Holocaust denial much easier to justify.

That's my take.

Blogger natschuster April 20, 2015 11:55 AM  

Is not recognizing the same thing as denying?

Blogger Josh April 20, 2015 11:59 AM  

Is not recognizing the same thing as denying?

According to the logic of the climate change crowd, yes.

Anonymous friendo April 20, 2015 12:02 PM  

@ Chris Mallory

"The Poles got upset over some of his other statements in the same essay."

The FBI chief basically conflated Germany, Poland and Hungary as all responsible for the Holocaust. This upset the Poles because of a few facts, widely known in Poland, but relatively unknown elsewhere:

1. In Poland, and in Poland only, the punishment for aiding a Jew, in any way, was immediate execution for the helper and his family (occasionally, the entire village where the Jew was hiding).

2. In Poland, and in Poland only, there was no collaborationist government with Germany. All other occupied countries had such governments. Some were closer to "ally" than "occupied" - Hungary was one such. Now, could Germany have found enough traitors in Poland to create such a government? Probably. But for whatever reason this did not happen.

3. Germans rationed food in Poland - typical daily allowance of food for a Pole was basically enough to stave off starvation. Any food given by a Pole to a hiding Jew had to come from that Pole's food allowance.

4. Communist Jews in Eastern Poland actively aided and abetted the Soviet invasion. Under Soviet occupation of Eastern Poland, Jews formed militias, denounced their neighbors, and helped the Soviets ethnically cleanse the Poles.

5. Despite the above, literally thousands of Poles ensured their family's hunger, and risked their family's lives, to help Jews. Thousands of Poles died as a result. Thousands lived, but never trumpeted to the world what they did. Thousands were honored at Yad Vashem.

6. Poles lost about 3 million non-Jewish citizens during WWII. About half of that were murdered or ethnically cleansed by the Soviets. Under Soviet occupation, the punishment for helping a Pole was not death. Under Soviet occupation, Jews were often part of the occupying force, and sometimes could decide the life and death of a Pole. A Jewish historian once tried to find any documented cases of a Jew helping a Pole, or indeed any gentile, to escape the Soviets. He found not one instance. I will write this again. In no instance, not a single one, was a Jew ever documented to have helped a gentile, even when this carried no risk to the Jew. Now, this was one historian, but he was Jewish, and he wasn't trying to make Jews look bad. Yet, he found nothing. So, a Polish version of Yad Vashem for righteous Jews does not exist - because not even a Jewish historian could find a righteous Jew.

So yeah, the tendentious presentation of the Holocaust in the West does grate on one's nerves a bit.

Anonymous fnn April 20, 2015 12:05 PM  

while interesting, your post does not address his point: he draws the definition of 'species' so widely ( capable of interbreeding ) that, if he is logically consistent, he would say that dogs, wolves and coyotes are ALL THE SAME SPECIES.

Dogs are now considered a subspecies of canis lupus. No one says that coyotes and wolves belong to the same species. See some of the online discussions of "the species problem."

Blogger natschuster April 20, 2015 12:09 PM  

Josh:

I mean is not recognizing genocide the same as denying it to rational people. What does not recognizing genocide mean, anyway? Does it mean it is not commemorated?

Blogger Josh April 20, 2015 12:14 PM  

I mean is not recognizing genocide the same as denying it to rational people. What does not recognizing genocide mean, anyway? Does it mean it is not commemorated?

Basically it means that it doesn't go on the official list of genocides or other mass killings by the state against its own citizens.

Anonymous Nah April 20, 2015 12:21 PM  

In Poland, and in Poland only, there was no collaborationist government with Germany.

Holland and Belgium were under a German military government, not a collaborationist government.

Blogger natschuster April 20, 2015 12:25 PM  

Josh:

Whose list?

Blogger john black April 20, 2015 12:30 PM  

"The United States also opposes recognizing the Armenian genocide."

True, but at the timeAmerica helped save the Armenians while the Turks were busy massacring them:

"Near East Relief was the name of the American charity specifically organized in response to the Armenian Genocide. At the urging of Ambassador Henry Morgenthau, Sr. to prevent the complete destruction of the Armenian population, the US government took a number of steps. Among them was the effort to send humanitarian relief. The Department of State quietly turned to the American Board of Commissioners of Foreign Missions to begin an emergency drive for the collection of funds.

"Under the leadership of James L. Barton and Cleveland H. Dodge, the American Committee for Armenian and Syrian Relief was founded in 1915. The Committee enjoyed the ardent support of President Woodrow Wilson. Through public rallies, church collections, and with the assistance of charitable organizations and foundations, the Committee raised millions in its campaigns to save "the starving Armenians." The Committee was able to deliver funds through the American Embassy in Constantinople which relied upon the missionaries and its consuls to distribute the aid. While the U.S. entry into war against Germany and Turkey in April 1917 disrupted this critical lifeline, the Committee widened its scope of activities at the end of the war also to include Russian Armenia where hundreds of thousands had taken refuge.

"Renamed the American Committee for Relief in the Near East in 1918, it was incorporated by an act of Congress in 1919 as Near East Relief (NER). Between 1915 and 1930, when it ended operations, NER administered $117,000,000 of assistance. It delivered food, clothing, and materials for shelter by the shipload from America. It set up refugee camps, clinics, hospitals, orphanages, and centers for vocational training. NER is credited with having cared for 132,000 Armenian orphans scattered across the region from Tbilisi and Yerevan to Constantinople, Beirut, Damascus, and Jerusalem. Near East Relief was an act of philanthropy, which in the words of the American historian Howard M. Sachar, "quite literally kept an entire nation alive.""

Blogger john black April 20, 2015 12:34 PM  

Actually, it's not entirely true that the United States has not recognized the Armenian genocide. According to the Wikipedia article, 44 states have recognized it as genocide. The Anti-defamation League and several other Jewish organizations have done the same. It's only recently that the American government has not called it a genocide, but it's been called as much as far back as 1951.

Blogger Josh April 20, 2015 12:45 PM  

The Federal Government hasn't

Blogger Josh April 20, 2015 12:47 PM  

Josh:

Whose list?


The state department's.

It probably also impacts who we can and can't send foreign aid to.

And since genocide is an official NO NO per the UN, it probably impacts that somehow.

Blogger Vincent Castrillo April 20, 2015 12:51 PM  

We are surprised??

What's good for Jews is good for me, but not for you. This is the basis of most of Western history at this point.

In other news. The lines are so obvious now between the evils and normal.

Real woman vs. trolls

http://www.msn.com/en-us/video/watch/video/vi-AAbfrCu?ocid=OutNUS&from=OutNUS&FORM=BWVOLC

Blogger Doom April 20, 2015 1:29 PM  

Absolutely. If there was only one holocaust, then there are none. There is no other answer.

Israel is making a huge blunder here, for political reasons. Turkey isn't even friends of theirs, at this point, as if that could be used as an excuse. Then again, until Israel builds the temple, all it is is just another Goddamned state. Expect little more from such.

Anonymous takin' a look April 20, 2015 1:51 PM  

Armenian Genocide? That was heavily promulgated by the revolutionary Young Turks. The Young Turks, while not exclusively so, were headed up by the Don Meh Jews of Thessaloniki. They of course included Mehmet Talaat and the Father of Modern Turkey, the Ataturk. I can see one angle why Israel wouldn't want that widely known.

The "species problem" is a very real one and even the creationist position of "kind devolving into astonishing variety" is not going to work, first, you have to establish exactly what a "Kind" is and what may work for one set of cladistics will not work for another. Botanists would laugh them out of the horticultural labs just as quickly as they would most secular concepts of species. This isn't limited to Plantae, animals, fungi, microbes (lateral gene transfer between microbial kingdoms) etc. have an annoying tendency to not "obey the rules". What do you do when a pheasant and a chicken interbreed and produce fertile offspring? That's as astonishing as if a mongoose and a genet; or a wolf and a red fox did the same. Mallard ducks and wood ducks both can interbreed with up to 50 and 25 very obviously different species of other anatids and an astonishing 20% of those offspring will be inter-fertile with any subsequent mates within those respective parameters.

Also, we now have literally tens of thousands of "cryptic species" to sort through among microcheropteran bats, passerine birds, murid rodents and probably insects. These are animals that look and are allosympatric with recognized species yet genetically, show very deep genetic divides. they have different mating calls, but often behave very similarly to the recognized species. it is like the differences between resident orcas and transient orcas, both are clearly inter-fertile (due to both hybridizing in captivity), and live within the same ecospace, yet both have nothing to do with one another and haven't done so for probably hundreds of thousands of years.

This is a great link on hybrid animals

Anonymous takin' a look April 20, 2015 1:53 PM  

Armenian Genocide? That was heavily promulgated by the revolutionary Young Turks. The Young Turks, while not exclusively so, were headed up by the Don Meh Jews of Thessaloniki. They of course included Mehmet Talaat and the Father of Modern Turkey, the Ataturk. I can see one angle why Israel wouldn't want that widely known.

The "species problem" is a very real one and even the creationist position of "kind devolving into astonishing variety" is not going to work, first, you have to establish exactly what a "Kind" is and what may work for one set of cladistics will not work for another. Botanists would laugh them out of the horticultural labs just as quickly as they would most secular concepts of species. This isn't limited to Plantae, animals, fungi, microbes (lateral gene transfer between microbial kingdoms) etc. have an annoying tendency to not "obey the rules". What do you do when a pheasant and a chicken interbreed and produce fertile offspring? That's as astonishing as if a mongoose and a genet; or a wolf and a red fox did the same. Mallard ducks and wood ducks both can interbreed with up to 50 and 25 very obviously different species of other anatids and an astonishing 20% of those offspring will be inter-fertile with any subsequent mates within those respective parameters.

Also, we now have literally tens of thousands of "cryptic species" to sort through among microcheropteran bats, passerine birds, murid rodents and probably insects. These are animals that look and are allosympatric with recognized species yet genetically, show very deep genetic divides. they have different mating calls, but often behave very similarly to the recognized species. it is like the differences between resident orcas and transient orcas, both are clearly inter-fertile (due to both hybridizing in captivity), and live within the same ecospace, yet both have nothing to do with one another and haven't done so for probably hundreds of thousands of years.

This is a great link on hybrid animals

Anonymous takin' a look April 20, 2015 1:54 PM  

forgot the link

Blogger Joshua Dyal April 20, 2015 1:55 PM  

while interesting, your post does not address his point: he draws the definition of 'species' so widely ( capable of interbreeding ) that, if he is logically consistent, he would say that dogs, wolves and coyotes are ALL THE SAME SPECIES.

You act as if that isn't actually a problem for biologists. To be pedantic, coyotes seem safe, for now. But yeah--wolves and dogs are now part of the same species. There is no good biological definition for species.

Anonymous takin' a look April 20, 2015 2:07 PM  

-Joshua Dyal

And there probably never will be a good definition to satisfy everyone's expectations. Nature doesn't give a hoot about our "rules".

Blogger Jew613 April 20, 2015 2:23 PM  

Except Atatürk wasn't Jewish but a sunni Muslim and the donhme had converted to Islam in the 17th century and intermarried with the Muslim population.

Blogger Jew613 April 20, 2015 2:26 PM  

And mehmet taalat was a dervish Muslim not Jewish by religion or ancestry.

Blogger Thordaddy April 20, 2015 2:41 PM  

Lol... Yes... Some "goyim" are into that "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" routine.

Blogger ScuzzaMan April 20, 2015 2:44 PM  

@bob k mando:

"he smears the lines of differentiation and demarcation by saying, "We are all roughly devolved into the same states of decay." so, a lion is as 'roughly devolved' as a tiger."

There's some evidence for this. The hybrid vigor and gigantism of tions and ligers being a pointed case in point.

Who you going to believe? The modelers or your lying eyes?

Anonymous BigGaySteve April 20, 2015 2:45 PM  

"Never again!* *Will we allow uncomfortable historical symmetry to our own historical grievances interfere with our realpolitik."

When the US Holocaust museum opened up jews protested outside it because Gays where included as AH's victims. No one else is allowed to talk about genocides against them especially not when its larger and committed by Jewish Bolsheviks against white Russian Christians in the Holodomor.

"Is there any group these people wouldn't sell themselves to for perceived advantage?"

George Soros showed they would even sell the little jews out

Where's ThorDaddy to explain ... You had one job, Thordaddy!~ He is busy looking up how many OOOOOOOOOOO's are appropriate

Blogger Ken April 20, 2015 2:46 PM  

@ Sherwood Family: Intriguing. Your perspective on why Israel wouldn't recognize the AG intrigues me. From a strategic perspective, it makes sense to keep the allies happy, AND I can see the perspective that the holocaust makes Israel unique.


Does the US refuse to officially recognize the genocide for the same reason - to placate an ally (in this case, Turkey)?

Anonymous takin' a look April 20, 2015 2:57 PM  

-Jew613

"pats his head" of course, of course! Just because their enemies and allies called them hebrews doesn't make it so. You know, the Monsantos were sephardic jews based out of New Orleans. They were particularly active slavers who married into the local christian gentile population; to this day, they remain staunch philosemites and zionists. That would never cause me to doubt the sincerity of their conversion.

Blogger W.LindsayWheeler April 20, 2015 2:58 PM  

Wiping out the whole Russian Royal Family is a genocide. They also killed much of the Russian Aristocracy! Many princes and relatives also. Not every Jew was killed in the Holocaust but it is labeled a "genocide".

They wiped out the entire Family. Race is family. The "geno" is a Greek term, which means "type". The Royal Family is a "genos". Plus all their relatives. They exterminated the Russian Royal Family and that is a genocide, Josh.

Now for Sherwood's questions. Yes, the killing of kings began in the English Civil Wars when King Charles I lost his head to the Cromwell's Levellers. They were taught to kill Monarchs because the Talmud teaches that Monarchy is idolatry! Look up Eric Nelson's The Hebrew Republic. All the killings of kings in Europe is based on that Talmudic teaching. The Protestants were following the exegesis of Samuel in Judges about the Jews wanting a king and the Mishnah which teaches that Monarchy is idolatry. Thomas Paine, in his book, Common Sense, repeats that and he is an atheist.

Marxism is a Jewish Ideology. The people in charge of Russia were Marxists. Ensconced in Marxist Ideology is Jewish Messianism. The first plank in the rebuilding of the unity of man is the need to kill all the monarchs.

So On Many accounts, the extermination of the Russian Royal Family, its genocide, is directly tied to Jewish Ideology, in the Talmud, in their Jewish Messianism, in their hatred of hierarchy. Trotsky praised their execution.

One can trace the teaching of the killing of kings from Charles I, to the American revolutionary hatred, (remember that the American Revolution was first called The Presbyterian War because it was a continuation of the English Civil Wars and Presbyterianism is the heir of the Levellers) of George III and Monarchy and aristocracy of England, to the regicides of French Revolution to other regicides in Serbia and the constant assignations of royals and aristocracy in Russia by Jews.

Total responsibility of the extermination of the Russian Royal Family is on the Jewish head. They haven't at all apologized nor are they even cognizant of their crimes--and they don't care, they just commit more.

Blogger Josh April 20, 2015 3:40 PM  

Does the US refuse to officially recognize the genocide for the same reason - to placate an ally (in this case, Turkey)?

Yes

Blogger Josh April 20, 2015 4:05 PM  

WLW:

gen·o·cide
ˈjenəˌsīd
noun
the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

Blogger natschuster April 20, 2015 4:08 PM  

WWW:

I'm a little confused. Many synagauges say a prayer every Sabbath for the welfare of the King, or in the case of the U.S.A the president. There is a principal in the Talmud called Kovod HaMalchus, respect for the King. This applies even to Gentile.

And I don't see how Marxism could be called Jewish when the Jewish Marxists were Jewish by ancestry only. They tended to be atheists, and to despise Judaism. And actually practicing Judaism was outlawed in the Soviet Union. People got sent to Siberia for praying.

Anonymous paradox April 20, 2015 4:22 PM  

Josh,

Un definition of genocide:

Article II of the Convention defines genocide as: ...any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group;

The Romanovs could fit as a religious group... as atheistic communist murder them. The Khmer Rouge murdered people who had Rx glasses, that is considered genocide. It doesn't have to be race to be genocide, and group size isn't specified in the UN definition.

Blogger W.LindsayWheeler April 20, 2015 4:24 PM  

The Royal family is a group. It was put out of existence. As I think about it, there really is no way to reconstruct the Russian monarchy.

"In 1918, Grand Duke Mikhail Alexandrovich, the former Emperor Nicholas II, and Tsesarevich Aleksei Nikolaevich, that is, the entire male line issuing from Emperor Alexander III, were murdered. In accordance with Article 29, the right to the throne passed to the line issuing from Alexander II: to the descendants of Grand Duke Wladimir Alexandrovich (1847-1908). The latter’s eldest Son, Grand Duke Kirill Wladimirovich, declared in 1922 His assumption of the curatorship of the Throne (since He was still not certain of the death of Emperor Nicholas II, His Son, and Brother), and on 31 August 1924 assumed, in exile, the title of Emperor of All the Russias."(SOURCE)

Under "Article 30 of the Fundamental Laws of the Russian Empire bestowed the headship of the Russian Imperial House to Her IMPERIAL Highness, GRAND DUCHESS MARIA I WLADIMIROVNA. " All male descendants have married commoners thus denying them any chance to head the Russian state.

But no, you don't have to kill a "large" group. You have to kill the genos. I consider the Russian Royal Family a genos and it was genocided by Jewish Marxists, who did it gleefully. The Jews question if there was a God in Heaven that allowed the Holocaust. I say there was a God in Heaven who gave retributive Justice to His designate of Russia and requited their blood guilt upon six million Jews! What goes around----comes around. It's Karma. As the Jews genocided the Russian Royal Family, so God ordered the payback--six million Jews for the Russian Royal Family! Be sorry for the Holocaust? Hell No! The Holocaust was JUSTICE for the Russian Royal Family!

Anonymous BigGaySteve April 20, 2015 4:29 PM  

gen·o·cide ˈjenəˌsīd noun the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation."

The Jewish Bolsheviks killing 60+ million white Russian Christians in the Holodomor is Genocide, the royal family along with them not so much.

Blogger SirHamster April 20, 2015 4:35 PM  

The "species problem" is a very real one and even the creationist position of "kind devolving into astonishing variety" is not going to work, first, you have to establish exactly what a "Kind" is and what may work for one set of cladistics will not work for another. Botanists would laugh them out of the horticultural labs just as quickly as they would most secular concepts of species. This isn't limited to Plantae, animals, fungi, microbes (lateral gene transfer between microbial kingdoms) etc. have an annoying tendency to not "obey the rules". What do you do when a pheasant and a chicken interbreed and produce fertile offspring? That's as astonishing as if a mongoose and a genet; or a wolf and a red fox did the same. Mallard ducks and wood ducks both can interbreed with up to 50 and 25 very obviously different species of other anatids and an astonishing 20% of those offspring will be inter-fertile with any subsequent mates within those respective parameters.

I'm not seeing the problem you do with the creationist concept of "kinds".

Does the creationist consider the pheasant and chicken to be different kinds?

Blogger Joshua Sinistar April 20, 2015 4:38 PM  

Gee aren't these peoples reasonable. Their not their people so if they died who cares? Suppose I said that I don't care if six million Jews died? Bet you money they would care! What if I said if all of them died now I don't care? Oh vey the Hate! Why not? You ain't my people!

Blogger luagha April 20, 2015 4:44 PM  

I'm glad someone brought up the Azerbaijan connection. As has been mentioned here, Azerbaijan has an airstrip that is pointed perfectly at Iran and would have been perfect for Israel to use in a surprised Osirak-like attack on Iran's various underground nuclear facilities until the US leaked the plan. And now that airstrip is no doubt heavily watched.

Even so, if Israel has any such plans remaining, that airstrip would now likely be a landing zone for sorties that take off elsewhere.

Blogger Cuca Culpa April 20, 2015 8:25 PM  

It does not help that Armenians have not historically been particularly philo-Semitic

https://www.twitter.com/femfreq/status/589586261523845120

Interesting. Makes sense why Anita Sarkeesian put out a recent tweet to say "I'm not Jewish" (in a victimhood wrapper, natch).

Blogger Cuca Culpa April 20, 2015 8:49 PM  


Article II of the Convention defines genocide as: any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.


Oops...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/eliseknutsen/2013/01/28/israel-foribly-injected-african-immigrant-women-with-birth-control/

This weekend, a report revealing that African women immigrating to Israel were subjected to mandatory contraceptive injections, effectively amounting to forced (if temporary) sterilization made global headlines.

Blogger Jew613 April 20, 2015 8:52 PM  

The Jews had largely been purged from the communist party by 1929 with the disbanding of the Yevsektsia and Stalin's purges. Besides which jews were only 10% of the bolshevik party. The holdomar took place from 1932 to 1933 and killed 2.5-7.5 million not 60+ million.

Blogger W.LindsayWheeler April 20, 2015 9:33 PM  

To NatSchuster. @ April 20, 2015 4:08 PM

The right hand certainly doesn't know what the left hand is doing. Many Jews do not even know what the criteria is for the "Jewish Messiah". Kahn, Rabbi Ari (2012) Talk: The Messiah.
http://www.ou.org/torah/article/the_messiah

It was Moses Hess that influenced Marx and Engels to some degree.

In Eric Nelson's The Hebrew Republic, pg 13, that Protestant hostility was great towards the old Catholic exegetical tradition towards the OT as "a typological prefiguration of the Gospel". Many Protestants were Hebraists and under Protestantism, the OT grew in importance. Not only that, but they consulted the Talmud. On page 20 he writes that Schickard provided a lot of Hebrew commentary from rabbis that disputed the value of kingship. This work of Schickard was to influence much of Protestant learning. Pg 26 is enlightening is that the Judaized Protestants brought about the English Civil Wars and they were proud to call themselves "Talmudic Commonwealthmen". It was because of rabbinic sources that led them to kill Charles I. They sought to implement a "Hebrew Republic".

This "Hebrew Republic" is what America is. America fomented the French Revolution which killed their kings. If Americans had access to George III, there is no doubt they would have killed him. They rounded up Tories by the hundreds and tarred and feathered them. The hatred toward monarchy was great amongst the revolutionaries.

The whole process was began in the Renaissance when Pico was educated by several Jewish teachers. The Jews have been constantly undermining Christendom, through religion, through politics and the Kabbala and its Tikkun Olam.

Like how many Catholics don't know their religion or the Bible, Jews don't know their religion or the Bible.

Pick up Eric Nelson's The Hebrew Republic it is quite enlightening.

Blogger natschuster April 20, 2015 10:10 PM  

Jew613-

I understand that at one point Stalin planned on exterminating the remaining Jews in the Soviet Union. He dies before eh had a chance.

Blogger natschuster April 20, 2015 10:21 PM  

WLW;

There really is no consensus among Jewish thinkers about the exact nature of the Messiah. Rabbi Akiva though Bar kochba was the Messiah. Some modern Lubavichers insist their Rebbe is the Messiah.

And I'm familiar with the Talmud. I don't recall seeing any passages that support Regicide. Some citations might be helpful. The Kaballa is mostly about the Tree of Life, the Nature of Angels, stuff like that, based on a very close reading of the Torah. Again some citations might be helpful.

And I was under the impression that there were no Jews living in England during the Civil war.

Blogger natschuster April 20, 2015 10:24 PM  

According to Wikipedia, Moses Hess married a Catholic woman. That is a big no-no in Judaism. That prompts me to question exactly how Jewish he, or his ideas were.

Anonymous Discard April 20, 2015 10:25 PM  

The holocaust is the gold standard of oppression. Israel does not want to debase its currency by allowing Armenians into the mix.

Blogger natschuster April 20, 2015 10:27 PM  

I friend of mine told me that he had a cleaning woman who called considered herself Jewish because she liked gefilte fish. See, what a people call themselves doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot. So I'm not all that impressed with people who claim to be "Talmudic Commonwealthmen." Hey, even Madonna calls herself a Kaballist.

Anonymous Discard April 20, 2015 10:33 PM  

Race is real, whether you call it "race" or not. Any three year old can tell the difference between a Nigerian and a Japanese. Are they really only seeing a social construct?
And the fact that the races can mix no more erases the phenomenon of race than the existence of the color green means there's no difference between yellow and blue.

Blogger natschuster April 20, 2015 10:34 PM  

Now I'm really confused. According to Wikipedia, the Shicard said that the Torah supports monarchy. Apparently, he agrees with Mainmonedes who writes that it is a mitzvah to appoint a king.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus April 20, 2015 10:38 PM  

Discard: "The holocaust is the gold standard of oppression. Israel does not want to debase its currency by allowing Armenians into the mix."

Or Ukrainians. Especially considering the ethnicity of the killers.

Blogger Shevi S April 20, 2015 10:56 PM  

I recall a passage in tractate Rosh hash Ana that says that the Jews promised they would mot rebel against the gentiles
This passage is the source of the antizionism of some chassidim.

Blogger natschuster April 20, 2015 11:15 PM  

Sorry. Shevi S. is me. MY daughter forgot to sign out.

Blogger Shimshon April 21, 2015 2:09 AM  

natschuster, no. That's one of the "three oaths." The one you are referring to is to not ascend like a wall to the land.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus April 21, 2015 5:30 AM  

Jew613: "The Jews had largely been purged from the communist party by 1929 with the disbanding of the Yevsektsia and Stalin's purges."

When were Jews targeted as Jews, that is as a collective, and purged? Never. When did Jews cease to be over-represented in the upper reaches of Soviet society, in posts of power and influence? Never. And given the massive over-representation of Jews at the top of the Communist terror structure, reaching 80-85% according to Putin, how could you have purges of significant party figures (a feature of Soviet political life before the "stabilization of cardres") without some of the purged being Jews?

Jew613: "Besides which jews were only 10% of the bolshevik party."

If that figure is correct, it still ignores the massive over-representation of Jews at the top, and in the terror apparatus, where they starved and killed goys freely. According to Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, whose authoritative work on this has still not been fully translated into English, if you were in trouble with the terror boys, you were likely to be seized by Jews, tried by a Jewish judge, and sent to a gulag run by a Jew. Jews, collectively, own Jewish Bolshevik terror, and the mass graves of the Soviet Union.

Jew613: "The holdomar took place from 1932 to 1933 and killed 2.5-7.5 million not 60+ million."

Those numbers for the Holodomor are reasonable.

Anonymous FrankNorman April 21, 2015 6:14 AM  

W.LindsayWheeler April 20, 2015 4:24 PM

The Royal family is a group. It was put out of existence. As I think about it, there really is no way to reconstruct the Russian monarchy.


Sure there is - they could just start a new dynasty.

If tomorrow morning the Patriarch of Moscow were to place the Tsar's crown on Vladimir Putin's head, with appropriate religious ceremonies, who would you be to complain?

And I wonder, you know... if Cromwell had accepted the crown and become King Oliver the First, where things would be now?

OpenID simplytimothy April 21, 2015 6:17 AM  

Simplytimothy, I am making no argument about the Israeli moral position vis-a-vis the Armenian Genocide.

I assumed you where, my apologies. thx.

OpenID simplytimothy April 21, 2015 6:41 AM  

The Sanhedrin was strictly controlled by the perushim. They would not have worked together.

@Jew613

With all due respect, as we see in American the rules mean nothing. Bernanke testifying before congress (where it is strictly forbidden to lie to Congress) testified that he was not monetizing the debt while he was monetizing the debt.

I have more examples of where "The S was strictly controlled by the P. They would not have Z." happening today. Your is not a compelling argument.




Anonymous FrankNorman April 21, 2015 7:22 AM  

From the Book of Acts, it's plain that the high priests actually controlled the Sanhedrin. If the Pharisees had refused to show up, Caiaphas et al would probably have shrugged and said "No problem, we'll get business done so much better without you."

Blogger Jew613 April 21, 2015 12:51 PM  

Simplytimothy, a reasonable point that nominally opposed factions will work together. But the sedduceem and perushim hated each other to the point of fighting in the streets.

As for the book of acts its a christian source and fine for you but the Jewish sources record the Sanhedrin was controlled by the perushim. The sadduceem controlled the office of high priest through their closeness to the romans.

Titus, yes Jews at 10% were overrepresented among the Bolsheviks. Buy the Jewish section of the party the yevsektsia was disbanded in 1929 and its members gradually all purged.

Stalin was planning to wipe out the Jews of the USSR in the so called doctors plot but he died before he could.

Also Jews were persecuted openly by the Soviet government to even pray in public or prepare kosher food such as matza was often a death sentence.

Blogger Lucas April 21, 2015 2:03 PM  


Two words: Donmeh Jews .

Anonymous Discard April 21, 2015 2:58 PM  

Whatever misfortune happened to Communist Jews once Stalin consolidated his power was well deserved. The fact remains that the Party was largely a Jewish-run organization from the start. It's not the percentage of Jews as a whole that determines the Jewish character of an entity, but the number of Jews in decision-making positions. Hollywood, for example, is Jewish-run, but FX men or set builders are Jews. Stalin simply recognized reality and outsmarted them, just as Hitler got rid of his former allies, the Brownshirts.

OpenID simplytimothy April 21, 2015 5:21 PM  

@jew613

As for the book of acts its a christian source and fine for you but the Jewish sources record...

How can I trust Jewish sources when Jews lie about the Armenian Genocide? Do you not see the problem? If you lie about something as massive as this, and the response is basically a yawn and a discourse over minutia, then I should not trust you.

In the U.S. we have several museums to the Holocaust. How many museums are there in Israel built honoring the Armenian Genocide? Why is this 'honoring' a one-way street? Where is the simple human decency that says to the Turks, "no, I cannot lie, you murdered x million Armenian Christians and if it hurts diplomatic relations to tell the truth, then so be it."

People as craven as that should not be trusted.


















Anonymous FrankNorman April 22, 2015 5:34 AM  

Stalin was planning to wipe out the Jews of the USSR in the so called doctors plot but he died before he could.

On the one hand, Jews seem to have this recurring problem with people in positions of political power wanting to wipe them out.

On the other, most of them are apparently statists who support gun confiscation and government control of everything.

Go figure.

Anonymous Discard April 22, 2015 10:41 PM  

For the record, while Jews run Hollywood, FX men or set builders are NOT Jews. My error.

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