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Monday, April 13, 2015

This blog goes to 23

 In which George Martin is slapped back into reality:
 nathancherolis
Apr. 12th, 2015 03:37 pm (UTC)
Re: Vox Day the anarchist
George... do you have any idea how many people read Vox's blog and love it?

The traffic widget is right there for all to see George.

The man has what is arguably the most read blog in all of science fiction. It may be the most read science fiction website of any type.

People keep underestimating him. People keep thinking that he cannot possibly be this popular and have this many supporters.

Accept it. He is. He does.

grrm
Apr. 12th, 2015 08:06 pm (UTC)
Re: Vox Day the anarchist
Maybe so. If that's true, it is terrifying.
Rabbits. They are so predictable. You'd think they would understand that is why it is called the Evil LEGION of Evil, not the Evil CENTURY of Evil or Evil COHORT of Evil. And he's still insulting you, my readers and supporters, even after being warned.
grrm
Apr. 12th, 2015 08:44 pm (UTC)
Re: Who's sufficient enough conservative to denounce Day?
Yes, generally speaking, "ignore the troll" is a good approach.

But with Vox, as with Hate, it does not seem to have worked. Ignored, they just grow, bigger and bigger, attracting more and more toads to their respective ponds.

 I'm sure everyone here will be shocked to learn that this fearsome chief rabbit is waddling away as fast as he can rather than engage in the honest dialogue for which he was calling.
 douglas_wardell
Apr. 13th, 2015 12:34 am (UTC)
On Day, Denouncements and Debates
While I've only been a lurker here, I've been reading your blog slightly longer than Vox's and I will lose a great deal of respect for you if you decline the opportunity to debate him on the topic(s) of your choosing.

As for why I don't denounce him, the things you've stated about him are falsehoods and misrepresentations of his positions. To be fair, he does sometimes bait the hook in such a way that the casual observer may misinterpret his positions to be much more inflammatory than they really are, but that's a far cry from what he's actually being accused of here and elsewhere.

Beyond that, any fair examination of speech from him and about him will make clear that the torrent of "hate-speech" is not flowing in the direction you assert.

If you disagree with me, you might as well debate your assertions with Vox point-by-point since he's made the offer. Either you find out you were wrong and the accusations were unfair, or you prove your points and get at least some of the condemnation you've been calling for. Either should be a win for you.

grrm
Apr. 13th, 2015 04:34 am (UTC)
Re: On Day, Denouncements and Debates
What I have asserted is that "torrent of hate speech" is flowing in both directions. That's why I explicitly linked Vox Day and Requires Hate in the same post.

You know, it is not as if Day's statements were misreported, or distorted, or hard to find. They are all right up there on the internet. Anyone can find them in a few moments of Googling. They say what they say. Dancing around and saying, "yes, but they did not mean what they seem to mean" is ingenuous at best.

I can already tell you the result of a "debate" between me and Vox Day. Those who lean left will say I won, those who lean right will say he won, and positions will only harden.

The debate should be between VD and someone like Correia or Torgensen, between a Rabid Puppy and a Sad Puppy, to determine who really speaks for this "movement" and what its goals are.
George knows what they mean. The amusing thing is that someone did bring Jemisin's statements to his attention, and he promptly began trying to argue context. Context! I'm sort of curious as to what context would make statements like "George Martin is racist as fuck" or "George RR Martin is a self-described pedophile, rapist, kitten-abuser, and a few other flavors of sex criminal" acceptable.

It says it on the Internet, it must be true! He also responded to the International Lord of Hate, mostly by discounting his personal experiences, although he does appear to be realistic about the consequences of open conflict in the SF world.

[[CORREIA: If the people attacking us don’t chill out, more of my people are going to get pissed off, and it might hit a 12 or 13 next year. :)]]

OH, believe me, I know. And we'll go right up to 13 with you. And Vox Day and his band of not-so-merry-men will go right to 23. And then the Hugos will pretty much be dead, and the world of science fiction will be that much the poorer.
That does sound like us, doesn't it? Forget 11. THIS BLOG GOES TO 23!

Labels: , ,

290 Comments:

1 – 200 of 290 Newer› Newest»
Anonymous Greg April 13, 2015 3:06 PM  

Sounds like a plan. What do you want us to do?

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 April 13, 2015 3:10 PM  

the world of science fiction will be that much the poorer

You mean poorer than "If You Were a Dinosaur My Love"?

That's a pretty low bar.

Blogger bob k. mando April 13, 2015 3:10 PM  

pikers.

i go to 42.

also:
"Maybe so. If that's true, it is terrifying. "

George R.R. Martin, the 'man' who is terrified by Sitemeter counts.

god forbid he should actually debate someone who disagrees with him.

or that he should meet a manatee.

Anonymous MrGreenMan April 13, 2015 3:11 PM  

Doug's a stand-up guy. Mr. Martin, however...

Blogger Guitar Man April 13, 2015 3:12 PM  

Ours go to 11.

Anonymous Oy April 13, 2015 3:13 PM  

The inevitable whine of the Left -- "but they did it toooooooooooooooo!"

Blogger Danby April 13, 2015 3:13 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Noah B April 13, 2015 3:14 PM  

In which GRRM bravely tucks his tail and runs.

Anonymous Alexander April 13, 2015 3:14 PM  

First honest thing GRRM has said about Vox and Larry: "I want you and him to fight".

Yes, I'm sure you do. Textbook r-types.

Side props to anonymous conservative. He has done great work in putting all those things that you know but can't quite put a finger on into an observable system.

Blogger Buddy E. April 13, 2015 3:14 PM  

Ya know, it would be amusing if GRRM was a complete moron unfamiliar with wordsmithing, but in this case it has to almost be willful idiocy.

Every time you've "attacked" anyone, it's been in response to then, and often using their own words.

These people are willingly blind, joyfully ignorant, and, I have to submit, completely culpable in practicing deceit. I've reading back through "Atlas shrugged" for the last few days and the parallels are astonishing.

Blogger Danby April 13, 2015 3:14 PM  

Well, I'm a pretty laid-back guy. I only ever go to 17.4. Anything beyond that is gauche.

Anonymous Oy April 13, 2015 3:14 PM  

You know, it is not as if Day's statements were misreported, or distorted, or hard to find.

Um, actually, yeah, they have been misreported and distorted. But you just can't be bothered to find out what he actually said, even though that is indeed not hard to find.

Anonymous AlteredFate April 13, 2015 3:15 PM  

Sounds like a plan. What do you want us to do?

1st Rule: You do not ask questions about Project Mayhem.

2nd Rule: YOU DO NOT ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT PROJECT MAYHEM!

Anonymous Oy April 13, 2015 3:16 PM  

Ya know, it would be amusing if GRRM was a complete moron unfamiliar with wordsmithing, but in this case it has to almost be willful idiocy.

He is evil, not stupid. Otherwise he wouldn't be asserting a manifestly false moral equivalency.

Anonymous Alexander April 13, 2015 3:17 PM  

Vox Day 12 days of Christmas, I dunno how it starts, but if definately ends:

4 billboard charting hits
3 hugo nominations
2 minority race cards
And a blog that goes up to 23!

Blogger Buddy E. April 13, 2015 3:21 PM  

Agreed, the feeble mask they've worn is stripped off but they didn't even realize it. They lie at first instinct (something VD had obviously pointed out before) but the brazeness is completely confusing to me. I guess it shows how comfortable they sit in their little incestuous circles, lies become reality in their minds.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis April 13, 2015 3:22 PM  

Are we surprised? He is a great writer, the huge disappointment of the last two entries in ASOIF notwithstanding,the man is an old school leftist both in looks and temperament; not to mention he is 66 years old which entails a certain stubbornness. His world view is pretty much baked in so he is wedded to the blue side of the isle come hell or high water, to get him to see denounce those who are ostensibly 'on his side' would probably require nothing less than a firebombing of his mailbox by SJWs.

Blogger Bobo April 13, 2015 3:22 PM  

As the immortal Della Reese said in the equally immortal Harlem Nights,
"Come on, we can all be some fightin' muthafuckas up in here!"

Blogger Cataline Sergius April 13, 2015 3:26 PM  

I'm starting to get a stitch in my side from all my evil laughter. I didn't think that was supposed to happen.

Just say'in.

Blogger Derrick Bonsell April 13, 2015 3:28 PM  

I wasn't terribly impressed by the first book, in fact I really lost interest about half-way through.

Blogger Student in Blue April 13, 2015 3:31 PM  

Either he is a dishonest scumbag, or he is old, addled, and unreliable.

Doug, "Beyond that, any fair examination of speech from him and about him will make clear that the torrent of "hate-speech" is not flowing in the direction you assert."

Martin, "What I have asserted is that "torrent of hate speech" is flowing in both directions."

'Both directions' is a direction. This is such a failure of reading comprehension, I do believe GRRM probably needs to be locked up in an old folk's home, for his own sake. That's assuming he's just addled, and not scum. I figured I'd be generous.

Anonymous pseudotsuga April 13, 2015 3:34 PM  

To mind-read Mr. Martin:

But, but, but...there's no way such an EEVVIILL person can be so popular! All the good folk are on my side, after all, so all those other people must be EEVVIILL too, a bunch of bigoted homophobic ne'er-do-wells.
The Sitemeter and other statistics must be lying...Vox must be gaming it in some way...deep down my feels tells me this must be true...

Anonymous DeepThought April 13, 2015 3:35 PM  

How does an author like GRRM see SJW's label him as a racist, and he does not defend himself? The man screams weak.

Notice how he makes accusations but does not provide any links? He argues like a girl. All Emotion.

Blogger Calvin Dodge April 13, 2015 3:35 PM  

You mean poorer than "If You Were a Dinosaur My Love"?

That's a pretty low bar.


Oh, the bar can go lower. Check out the WINNER for "best short story".

http://www.tor.com/stories/2013/02/the-water-that-falls-on-you-from-nowhere

Anonymous Alexander April 13, 2015 3:36 PM  

I like the part where GRRM says Vox Day getting on the nomination would be like Requires Hate getting on it... then as an aside, pointing out that Requires Hate did get on... and nobody on the left spoke out... but that was different because that was a pen name.

Bravo!

Blogger Noah B April 13, 2015 3:37 PM  

"The Water That Falls On You From Nowhere"

Hey, that could be great name for a bar in San Francisco

Anonymous Steve April 13, 2015 3:40 PM  

It bears repeating, that this is the guy who keeps referring to Vox's readers as "toads".

Seems the pot is calling the kettle fat.

Blogger Daniel April 13, 2015 3:42 PM  

Love brought me here and love keeps me here. The daemon summoning and voxorcisms are a bloody bonus. Then again my public school counselor always told me I should have been a necromancer.

Blogger Nate April 13, 2015 3:43 PM  

I love the guy that instantly checked Alexa to see and concluded from that one glance that VP was less popular than Whatever.

If Whatever has in fact had an uptick from the Hugo controversy its certainly a new thing. The numbers on that blog have been falling consistently for months.

Anonymous fish April 13, 2015 3:44 PM  

Oh, the bar can go lower. Check out the WINNER for "best short story".


So at what point did Tor become a purveyor of queer erotica?

Entryism.....meh!

Blogger Noah B April 13, 2015 3:44 PM  

GRRM does look like a caricature of a drunk & angry dwarf. Just a bit.

Anonymous kfg April 13, 2015 3:45 PM  

"Come on, we can all be some fightin' muthafuckas up in here!"

He believes that, having been attacked that we are "lashing out," and do so out of fear.

It is not in his mind that men may face a charge and think, "Ooooh yeah. Bring it! I haven't worked out yet today."

"..there's no way such an EEVVIILL person can be so popular! "

Despite the above, they are perfectly capable of thinking of themselves as the 300, a small but righteous cadre holding the line, even after someone has yelled "Boo!" loud enough to make them run away.

Anonymous Strange Aeons April 13, 2015 3:46 PM  

Are his contrived efforts to make the 'toad' label stick anything but a tit for tat reaction to us referring to them as rabbits?
The r/K analogy is probably lost on them, and he just wanted to escalate the superficial "unflattering animal" theme.
Trivial observation, but children in adult bodies merit little more.

Blogger Corvinus April 13, 2015 3:48 PM  

GRRM: "Correia, please attack Vox, so you can earn your Brownie Points with the SJWs. You haven't done it yet, and I want you to. Pleeeeeasse?"

Blogger John Cunningham April 13, 2015 3:48 PM  

Remember, all of the Ilk and like like-minded, one can STILL BUY A SUPPORTING MEMBERSHIP to Sasquan for 40 semoleons, which gets one a packet of ebooks of thenominees, probably worth $80 on the market, the right to vote this year, and the right to nominate next year.

Blogger Chiva April 13, 2015 3:48 PM  

I used to read GRRMs blog. Once he started to refer to Tea-Party types as Tea Baggers I dropped the cretin from my reading list.

Blogger Corvinus April 13, 2015 3:50 PM  

Are his contrived efforts to make the 'toad' label stick anything but a tit for tat reaction to us referring to them as rabbits?

Possibly. At any rate, Vox has also referred to Teresa Nielsen-Hayden as the "Toad of Tor", and it may be a conscious or subconscious plagiarism of that particular insult.

Blogger Douglas Wardell April 13, 2015 3:51 PM  

FYI, here's the reply I posted this morning which hasn't yet appeared. There are no new comments in that thread since this went up and the comment was screened, as was the first, so he may have simply not seen it yet.



douglas_wardell
Apr. 13th, 2015 01:52 pm (UTC)
Re: On Day, Denouncements and Debates
Reposting as I was told the first was marked as spam. I've removed the link to the actual blog post I quote below in case that was the issue.

I appreciate the response, but of course his positions are being distorted and misreported. For example, one particular novelist attacked him savagely over a long period and he calls her a half-savage, and then it's widely reported that he's therefor a racist who believes all blacks are savages.

Take the acid-throwing comment for another. He's making a specific point about how he would use PZ Myer's utilitarian perspective to respond to a question PZ Myers posed to someone else in a debate. For clarity below, anyone remotely familiar with Vox knows he's not a utilitarian. Here is the context, emphasis mine:


3. How does throwing acid in their faces when they demand independence from men benefit women?

...

3. Because female independence is strongly correlated with a whole host of social ills. Using the utilitarian metric favored by most atheists, a few acid-burned faces is a small price to pay for lasting marriages, stable families, legitimate children, low levels of debt, strong currencies, affordable housing, homogenous populations, low levels of crime, and demographic stability. If PZ has turned against utilitarianism or the concept of the collective welfare trumping the interests of the individual, I should be fascinated to hear it.



I agree that the most likely result of a debate would be a hardening of both sides, but only if you continue to assert that he is a monster despite all evidence to the contrary. If you either proved it or recanted based on the evidence and his clarifications, I think you'd certainly sway people.

Anonymous kfg April 13, 2015 3:53 PM  

Strange Aeons/Corvinus:

But wait! Don't order yet. You're both right.

OpenID genericviews April 13, 2015 3:53 PM  

grrm
Apr. 12th, 2015 08:06 pm (UTC)
Re: Vox Day the anarchist
Maybe so. If that's true, it is terrifying.


Oh no. I have seen this before. He is fixing to head to HR with a hostile work environment complaint. You are making him feel threatened and unsafe.

Anonymous Strange Aeons April 13, 2015 3:53 PM  

Also plausible.

Blogger Russell April 13, 2015 3:53 PM  

Corvinus: "At any rate, Vox has also referred to Teresa Nielsen-Hayden as the "Toad of Tor", and it may be a conscious or subconscious plagiarism of that particular insult."

If that's true, Grumpy is a worse writer than I had imagined.

Blogger Nate April 13, 2015 3:57 PM  

Wait! I have a plan...

1) assert the need for open debate and civil discourse.

2) Lament that bad people say bad things that prevent debate and civil discourse.

3) when bad people offer debate and civil discourse... assert that the debate is pointless.

4) keep not finishing the series...

5) ...

6) PROFIT!

Blogger bob k. mando April 13, 2015 3:58 PM  

Strange Aeons April 13, 2015 3:46 PM
Are his contrived efforts to make the 'toad' label stick anything but a tit for tat reaction to us referring to them as rabbits?


no, Vox has been referring to TNH as 'the Toad of Tor' for years now.

Martin is trying to 'reclaim' the word and redirect it at us.

i mean, seriously. he's been in con fandom since at least the 70s.

"In the early 1980s, critic and writer Thomas Disch identified Martin as a member of the "Labor Day Group", writers who regularly congregated at the annual Worldcon,[47] usually held on or around the Labor Day weekend."

do you actually think that he has NOT licked TNH once or twice? that they are NOT great friends?

he's making a pretense of impartiality so that he can defend the Haydens as an 'unbiased observer'.

only, he's about as unbiased as Trotsky.

Anonymous Steve April 13, 2015 3:58 PM  

Notice the misleading comparison Martin keeps clinging to, so as to present himself and what he calls "my side" as the sensible moderates in the middle:

That's why I explicitly linked Vox Day and Requires Hate in the same post.

Nah. Requires Hate is a red herring in this context.

If you're going to make a fair and honest (ho ho ho) comparison, it'd between what Vox has said and what Patrick Nielsen Hayden has said.

After all, they're both senior figures in multi-Hugo-award-nominated science fiction publishing houses.

Unlike Patrick Nielsen Hayden and his handsome wife, Vox permits open and honest discussion on his blog, even if you disagree with him. Vox seems to favour the Mal Reynolds approach to conflict: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed.

The Neilsen Haydens smear and slander and then censor people on their blog.

It's embarrassing to see a celebrated author like George RR Martin, a man with no fewer than 66 summers under his expansive belt, argue like a teenage girl on Tumblr.

Anonymous Alexander April 13, 2015 3:59 PM  

GRRM does look like a caricature of a drunk & angry dwarf. Just a bit.

Yes, but as has been pointed out, is he a caricature of a drunk and angry dward who has the awesome sex with many women, always witty at the perfect moment, and brilliantly defying death a million times?

Cause that's what we're seeing. And if anyone remembers which Ilk made that connection, I would recognize him for that bit of brilliant detective work.

Anonymous Difster April 13, 2015 3:59 PM  

Before all of this happened, I had been considering catching up on Game of Thrones, but that's not going to happen now. I won't be called a toad and then give that person's work any attention.

OpenID malcolmthecynic April 13, 2015 4:00 PM  

Yes, Vox, if a movement not associated with you debates you, that will prove they're not associated with you!

Because logic.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan April 13, 2015 4:03 PM  

Probably sticking the issue of the gate keepers to SciFi with GM, the rest of the controversy can correctly be called rhetoric trying to disqualify Vox and scare off the ol' papa cons.

Blogger Noah B April 13, 2015 4:03 PM  

@Difster

If you're not into gay male porn then I wouldn't bother with GOT anyway.

Anonymous Feh April 13, 2015 4:04 PM  

SJW: "We need open debate and civil discourse"
Translation: "Shut up while we lecture you"

Anonymous kfg April 13, 2015 4:04 PM  

"Grumpy is a worse writer than I had imagined."

I have held FTA in extremely high regard for decades, specifically for the way he stepped out of the box, then turned around and turned the box itself inside out.

I have to admit that to find him penning something so trite as, "Oh, yeah? Well . . . you're one too," a bit disappointing.

Anonymous Strange Aeons April 13, 2015 4:06 PM  

Bob k mando
I'll buy that theory too. I can't help thinking that since either theory sounds about his speed, he's got a reversal of the Xanatos Gambit that has been made mention of recently, and either way makes him look doubly asinine and simplistic.

Anonymous Feh April 13, 2015 4:07 PM  

"If you're not into gay male porn then I wouldn't bother with GOT anyway."

Also, incest and dwarves riding on pigs.

Blogger Guitar Man April 13, 2015 4:07 PM  

GRRM's reason for calling us toads was completely obvious. Laughable to think of myself as a toad. I'm not overweight. I don't have warts.

Anyway, I don't know if Vox should sue him for plagiarism or be honored that GRRM has taken a shine to that insult.

Anonymous Soga April 13, 2015 4:08 PM  

Sharpening my rhetorical battle axe and my dialectal spear right now.

Bring it on, rabbits. It's dinnertime.

Anonymous AndrewV April 13, 2015 4:08 PM  

Maybe Wendell will offer to debate him on Twitter. Then again, that might go worse than if Martin decided to debate Vox.

It is a law written in stone: Never debate an eloquent manatee.

Blogger HalibetLector April 13, 2015 4:08 PM  

Has GRRM deleted the comments made by nathancherolis and douglas_wardell? I don't see them anywhere on the linked page (http://grrm.livejournal.com/420090.html).

Anonymous Alexander April 13, 2015 4:09 PM  

Please, oh please, let us see a picture of Scalzi in a shirt that shows gamma rabbit beating up a toad.

Anonymous jack April 13, 2015 4:09 PM  

@ John Cunningham April 13, 2015 3:48 PM

Well. Maybe. I sent in my application for membership on 4/6. The $40 cleared from my card to them on 4/8. So far, no confirmation, no PIN, no notice of when the reading packets go out. I have been checking my credit card site everyday to be sure I'm not getting double or triple billed.
They may well be backed up; or, the volunteers manning the computers are thinking that all these new applications are from Puppies and deciding to do something pro-active about it. Maybe I'm wrong. Hope so.....

Anonymous The Outer Depths April 13, 2015 4:11 PM  

But with Vox, as with Hate, it does not seem to have worked. Ignored, they just grow, bigger and bigger, attracting more and more toads to their respective ponds.

I am sick of these species-ists, these anti-toad-ists like George!

What have toads ever done to him? Anything? I think not! Why all the toad-hate?

Why can't we all live together instead of fomenting toad-hatred?

Is it because toads are small and easily oppressed? Is it because SJWs think toads are ugly? They are toadist-lookists.

Down with toadist-lookists! Down with toad-hate! Burn them all in hell for their species-ism! Exterminate them!

Anonymous kfg April 13, 2015 4:12 PM  

"So far, no confirmation, no PIN, no notice of when the reading packets go out."

At the end of the nominations announcement they said, "May."

Anonymous Alexander April 13, 2015 4:13 PM  

Jack,

They do tend to get backlogged, and I'm sure they are having their work cut out for them this year. But so far, there is no evidence that Worldcon has been anything but perfectly professional towards everyone involved.

Blogger Joshua Dyal April 13, 2015 4:16 PM  

4) keep not finishing the series...

5) ...

6) PROFIT!


It seems pretty clear that since he has no idea what to do, the series falling into the hands of a wildly successful TV production has solved it for him, and the ... and PROFIT will actually happen.

He doesn't need to do anything except continue to receive royalty checks from HBO. If there's no end to the series in print, he's successfully outsourced it to a team of screenwriters who can end it for him. And then he can decide if he actually wants to write another novel after that or not.

Blogger bob k. mando April 13, 2015 4:18 PM  

the fearsome toadly battle cry:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBkWhkAZ9ds

is not fear stricken into your hearts? do you not cower before his power and shrink before the girth of his mighty thews?

OpenID cailcorishev April 13, 2015 4:18 PM  

If you're not into gay male porn then I wouldn't bother with GOT anyway.

I'm basically afraid to watch anything produced for TV in the last decade for just that reason. The promos that run during sporting events are bad enough.

Anonymous Alexander April 13, 2015 4:19 PM  

Now maybe Vox can refresh my memory here, as I no longer have a copy of that most glorious piece of fiction written in the 21st century.

But in the Book of Reasons why we are expelling Vox Day from the SFWA, I believe that the use of the word 'toad' was explicitly referenced. When can we look forward to Mr. Martin's hearing?

Blogger D. Lane April 13, 2015 4:20 PM  

I won't be called a toad and then give that person's work any attention.

The offensive part of it isn't even the name calling. It's that the insults are being slung by a total pussy:

"If you disagree with me, you might as well debate your assertions with Vox point-by-point since he's made the offer. Either you find out you were wrong and the accusations were unfair, or you prove your points and get at least some of the condemnation you've been calling for. Either should be a win for you.

"I can already tell you the result of a "debate" between me and Vox Day. Those who lean left will say I won, those who lean right will say he won, and positions will only harden.

The debate should be between VD and someone like Correia or Torgensen, between a Rabid Puppy and a Sad Puppy, to determine who really speaks for this "movement" and what its goals are.
"

Reminds me of those wanna-be high school hotshots. Talks a big game like he's Billy Badass and proceeds to scurry off the moment someone confronts him. He'd kick your ass right now, but dammit, Algebra class is about to start.

Blogger Corvinus April 13, 2015 4:21 PM  

I am sick of these species-ists, these anti-toad-ists like George!

Somehow, this statement makes me think of Big Dan Teague in Oh Brother Where Art Thou. Both are big holier-than-thou hypocritical blowhards. And both really don't like toads.

Blogger Mark Citadel April 13, 2015 4:21 PM  

'Oh, the bar can go lower. Check out the WINNER for "best short story".'

For crying out loud. If this isn't evidence the SJWs destroyed the Hugos, I don't know what is.

It's funny that GRRM thinks this blog is sooo extreme it would go *gasp* all the way to 23! I dare say if he read any of my stuff he'd have a heart attack. Vox is a cordial gentleman of the radical right (AKA - Normalcy). Martin's excuses for avoiding debate with Vox whose views can be defended off the back of almost 3000 years of human history are now sad and weaselly.

He should just admit he is working for the SJWs, and they can insult him as they please because they are the key masters. And by the way, yes we will take it to 23 if these insufferable marxocrats actually try to piss on people's work with that 'No Award' BS. Read the books. Judge them fairly. Stop the leftist dirtbaggery.

OpenID malcolmthecynic April 13, 2015 4:21 PM  

My commentary: https://malcolmthecynic.wordpress.com/2015/04/13/george-r-r-martin-runs-away/

Blogger Joshua Dyal April 13, 2015 4:23 PM  

I am sick of these species-ists, these anti-toad-ists like George!

I'm an anti-toadist. Also, unlike Martin's assertion, I'm not in the least anything whatsoever like a toad. The whole toad thing is just bizarre. But Martin's clearly not nearly capable of fighting in his weight class (referring to his position in the field, not his actual weight--although both would be equally true.) He's just flailing around, now. He was at least a little bit cunning when he first sallied forth pretending to be reasonable, but when it didn't go according to plan, he's lost even that false veneer of civility or anything like rationality.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza April 13, 2015 4:23 PM  

The comments at not a blog are not too thrilled with Martin.

Anonymous cheddarman April 13, 2015 4:23 PM  

The Sigma strikes again!

Anonymous Alexander April 13, 2015 4:24 PM  

I say we don't stop at 23, I say we go OVER 9000

Anonymous Salt April 13, 2015 4:27 PM  

GRRM sees all this through rose colored glasses. I'm not convinced he even knows what social justice warriorism is, or how far it has invaded society. Perhaps he just doesn't want to see it. Easier being an ostrich?

But where was he when TNH said worldcon and the hugos belonged to them? He posts about the puppies. He defends the status quo.

Blogger bob k. mando April 13, 2015 4:28 PM  

Alexander April 13, 2015 4:09 PM
Please, oh please, let us see a picture of Scalzi in a shirt that shows gamma rabbit beating up a toad.



i think you've forgotten what Gamma Rabbit looks like.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-kFaZApKOink/URFBuJBY8BI/AAAAAAAAAaM/flUmRtgvIF4/s1600/GammaRabbit_tan.png

bitches ain't gonna be 'beating' nothing. although, if you aren't careful they may jump on your crotch with their open mouths and fellate you.

best be wearing your codpieces and chastity belts, boys.

Anonymous Cheddarman April 13, 2015 4:28 PM  

"If you're not into gay male porn then I wouldn't bother with Game Of Thrones anyway."

Big Gay Steve, what does your gaydar say about that?

Blogger D. Lane April 13, 2015 4:30 PM  

I say we don't stop at 23, I say we go OVER 9000

Unnecessary. It abundantly clear that they merely need to be threatened with 23 to begin dismembering themselves with Destructo Discs.

Anonymous Alexander April 13, 2015 4:30 PM  

Bob K. Mando,

GAMMA RABBIT LOOKS LIKE AN EX-MARINE

Anonymous Mr. Tzu April 13, 2015 4:30 PM  

At this rate VD will fictionalized as an honorary long lost cousin Stark. Where the fictionalized debate will take place, straw man topics will be torn limb from limb followed by zombie Joffrey taking the final blow redeeming himself to the reader.

Anonymous Steve April 13, 2015 4:31 PM  

The debate should be between VD and someone like Correia or Torgensen, between a Rabid Puppy and a Sad Puppy

Let's You and Him Fight!

Blogger ajw308 April 13, 2015 4:31 PM  

"Two men enter, one man leaves."

We'll, we only had one show up...

Blogger Joshua Dyal April 13, 2015 4:34 PM  

The comments at not a blog are not too thrilled with Martin.

Huh?

Blogger Joshua Dyal April 13, 2015 4:39 PM  

Oh, sorry. Didn't realize that his blog's title was Not a Blog.

Anonymous kfg April 13, 2015 4:41 PM  

If confronted by an aggressive toad I believe the gamma ex-marine could handle the conflict with aplomb - by cowering proudly behind his adolescent daughter.

Blogger ScuzzaMan April 13, 2015 4:43 PM  

With thanks to John Cunningham:

"You are now a member of Sasquan and the World Science Fiction Society. We hope you have a great time with us, but we want you to know that you are part of our community. What you bring to us is as important as what the rest of us are bringing to you."

bwa ha ha...

Anonymous Feh April 13, 2015 4:44 PM  

GRRM sees all this through rose colored glasses. I'm not convinced he even knows what social justice warriorism is, or how far it has invaded society. Perhaps he just doesn't want to see it.

Go to Open Secrets and look up his political donations. All Democrats, including:
John Kerry
Sherrod Brown
Barack Obama
Elizabeth Warren
Mark Begich
Michelle Lujan Grisham

You are fooling yourself if you think he doesn't know EXACTLY who the SJWs are.

His pretense of moderation is mere pretense.

His desire for Correia and Torgerson to keep Vox in check to preserve the good name of SP is mere concern trolling.

Anonymous Stickwick April 13, 2015 4:46 PM  

And Vox Day and his band of not-so-merry-men will go right to 23.

Geez, what a sexist. Also, an impolitic fool. Does he not think with a readership as big as Vox's that there might be some overlap between Vox's merry toads and people who buy his books?

Blogger El Borak April 13, 2015 4:49 PM  

What have toads ever done to him? Anything? I think not! Why all the toad-hate?

Plus, toads are generally distinguished from frogs in that they are terrestrial. It is frogs that gather around ponds. Why does George RR Martin hate science, too?

Blogger grendel April 13, 2015 4:49 PM  

Ya know, some days it's almost as if these people have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and now their foolish hearts are darkened, so they keep returning to their sin like a dog eating its own vomit...

Good thing God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to confound the wisdom of this world, and his word does not return to itself void.

Anonymous kfg April 13, 2015 4:52 PM  

And now I see that he has not only withdrawn from debate with Vox, but has also withdrawn from appearing at the fantasy Worldcon in Saratoga, NY.

Perhaps he has heard that that would put him in my physical range.

Too bad, I'd been meaning to tell him how much I appreciate FTA.

Blogger bob k. mando April 13, 2015 4:53 PM  

@Alexander
*fistbump*

Blogger Double E April 13, 2015 4:54 PM  

D. Lane,

yeah its pretty sad. It basically went down like:

GRRM: Can't we just settle this like men? You need to get your ass kicked to teach you a lesson! There should be a duel!

VOX: Challenge Accepted. Name your time, place, and weapons.

GRRM: wha- who me? Oh ....uh, I just ...What would this "duel" entail anyway? I didn't mean I wanted to do it, I can't bother with the likes of you - your friends will just say you won anyway. One of those guys over there should do it.

Anonymous Jeanne April 13, 2015 4:55 PM  

Man.... I am a bit disappointed to see George turn out to be such a....weakling-- just completely toothless-- because despite the fact that he floundered badly with "Dance", I really enjoyed the first 3 books of ASOIAF.

No Matter. I am in this for the long haul. This year, next year, the next 10 years. Route the SJW's, burn their crops, sow their lands with salt, and hear the lamentations of their women.

Dread Ilk now. Dread Ilk always. ;)

Blogger Double E April 13, 2015 4:56 PM  

Holy shit, I just followed the link and his blog is on LiveJournal?!

He really IS old!

Anonymous Alexander April 13, 2015 4:58 PM  

Ways GRRM resembles Tyrion, #3473:

Prefers duel-by-someone else.

Blogger Double E April 13, 2015 4:58 PM  

And why the fuck does he keep putting "debate" in quotation marks? He is the one who used the word, is quoting himself?

Blogger Double E April 13, 2015 4:59 PM  

Alexander,

Haha there was a post earlier positing that Tyrion was GRRM's literary vision of himself. May be true after all.....

Anonymous Fran April 13, 2015 5:01 PM  

What would Correia and Torgelson debate with Vox about? Seems they are in agreement on those issues.
Unless there is something I'm missing.

Blogger darkdoc April 13, 2015 5:03 PM  

I don't know, Martin could always do the Flaccid Puppy slate next year.

That should be a winner.

Blogger Douglas Wardell April 13, 2015 5:04 PM  

HalibetLector April 13, 2015 4:08 PM

Has GRRM deleted the comments made by nathancherolis and douglas_wardell? I don't see them anywhere on the linked page (http://grrm.livejournal.com/420090.html).


Mine are available here, and it looks like he's approved my second comment though no response (yet): http://grrm.livejournal.com/419232.html?page=5

Blogger ScuzzaMan April 13, 2015 5:05 PM  

http://sasquan.org/member-numbers/

Heavily skewed USA (5814/7016) and heavily skewed California (914 (One assumes not everyone identifies their State, since the numbers dont add up, but this is more than 3 times any other State)).

Is the Legion recruiting in California?

Blogger Nate April 13, 2015 5:06 PM  

Hey guys... Shadowdancer Duskstar lost her 11 month old child. There is a paypal to help them deal with the funeral costs.

https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=9MCPUTTUCBTUW

Shadowdancer isn't ilk but she was targeted by Marsten and she's had a pretty rough go of it.

Do as thou wilt.

Blogger ScuzzaMan April 13, 2015 5:07 PM  

Oops, wrong numbers on the states; website renders like a mad thing.

Blogger Joshua Dyal April 13, 2015 5:07 PM  

What would Correia and Torgelson debate with Vox about? Seems they are in agreement on those issues.
Unless there is something I'm missing.


Both are on record as saying exactly that, even... that they agree with him on more things than they disagree.

Martin's just playing games. It was stupid to suggest that either should debate Vox. He's just trying to get them to turn on each other: a classic SJW concern-troll tactic.

Anonymous NateM April 13, 2015 5:10 PM  

Whenever GRRM calls the Ilk toads...

This comes to mind. Guess which party the Ilk are

Blogger S1AL April 13, 2015 5:13 PM  

GRRM is really, really good at implication. I mean... damn. His latest post is just one long "do you really mean that" to Larry Correia. I'm impressed. It comes across as all kinds of sympathetic (read: patronizing).

Anonymous Giuseppe April 13, 2015 5:14 PM  

The fat dwarf forgets that in the Evilness of the Evil Legion, toads are routinely french-kissed by princesses. The toads then turn into handsome Evil Princes that ravish the Princess.
And then put on their armour to venture forth as the Evil Legion, wearing and collecting rabbit scalps on their belts.

Anonymous BigGaySteve April 13, 2015 5:18 PM  

"GRRM does look like a caricature of a drunk & angry dwarf. " I bet he is BUYsexual like the dwarf in his stories that has to buy whores

refer to Tea-Party types as Tea Baggers ~ I know on of the other guys from gaypatriot in real life and he likes recieving tea bagging


Noah B ""The Water That Falls On You From Nowhere "Hey, that could be great name for a bar in San Francisco"

Was that you that was curious about Gay Men's showers before? You are better off being STR8 if you can help it. I know that most gay guys are more feminine than feminists are, but it would really suck to be a gay conservative if I was not a top. My people couldn't stay out of the NYC bathhouses long enough for them to be cleaned up after Sandy, when the meningitis outbreak in the NYC gay community got traced back to one of the bathhouses.

"If you're not into gay male porn then I wouldn't bother with Game Of Thrones anyway."Big Gay Steve, what does your gaydar say about that?

While there is gratuitous sex of all kinds on the GOT it has noting on a GBLT convention. When I watch TV & movies I usually do it in the spirit of Mystery Science Theatre 3000. I did watch the GOT for its scenery, but was like sure GoGirl sheknight defeated the 2nd strongest man in the entire GOT universe because "equality". I do like the medieval setting, & renaissance fairs. I have traveled to Italy, Austria, Germany, France and the UK , on my own expense not as a 14yo letting someone snort cocaine off my penis. There are villas still standing in ancient Pompeii that would be safer to be in during a tornado than todays stick built US homes.

Anonymous Murgy "Sorrow. No Words" April 13, 2015 5:19 PM  

Slight correction: Shadowdancer's child was 11 weeks old. Not that the heartache is any less.

Bad things happening to good people - it sucks.

Anonymous Steve April 13, 2015 5:25 PM  

Game of Toads: A Song of Piss and Wind

Anonymous BigGaySteve April 13, 2015 5:25 PM  

What would Correia and Torgelson debate with Vox about? ~ How to cook rabbits rare or well done.

GRRM: Can't we just settle this like men? You need to get your ass kicked to teach you a lesson! There should be a duel!
VOX: Challenge Accepted. Name your time, place, and weapons.
GRRM: High Noon, Dunken Doughnuts, & 3000 éclairs.

Blogger Nate April 13, 2015 5:26 PM  

weeks... not months.

Apologies. I just pulled it off of MonsterHunterNation

Anonymous Not-So-Merry zen0 April 13, 2015 5:26 PM  

@ Double E

Holy shit, I just followed the link and his blog is on LiveJournal?!

He really IS old


66 = Boomer

He feels the cold winds of mortality beginning to blow through the crack under the door to the future.

Blogger Mark Citadel April 13, 2015 5:27 PM  

"And why the fuck does he keep putting "debate" in quotation marks? He is the one who used the word, is he quoting himself?"

I know, this is indicative of a medical condition called 'severe spastication' better known as SS (Calm down, George, not the scary kind in black you probably think Vox is a member of)

He puts those around it as if someone else said it. YOU SAID DEBATE, JACKASS! For crying out loud, I have respect for some of the stuff he's written (although there is some SJW even in that), but this is just embarrassing. You asked for the debate, now name the time and place.

Anonymous Heh April 13, 2015 5:29 PM  

The debate should be between VD and someone like Correia or Torgensen, between a Rabid Puppy and a Sad Puppy, to determine who really speaks for this "movement" and what its goals are.

Translation: Larry and Brad should hold a Struggle Session and confront Vox with crushing accusations of badthink and causefeelbad. In the end, Vox will renounce his satanic views and agree to eat nothing but carrots and lettuce henceforth.

Anonymous Salt April 13, 2015 5:30 PM  

Didn't know about his political donations, Feh. EW lit right up on my screen.

Anonymous Huckleberry -- est. 1977 April 13, 2015 5:30 PM  

In Internet feuds and boxing matches, it's sage counsel to avoid punching below one's weight.
Which precludes GRR Martin in just about all cases.

Blogger Markku April 13, 2015 5:31 PM  

Was that you that was curious about Gay Men's showers before?

No, that was Zeno, who found a strange and alarming device in a gay man's shower. Strange, because he hadn't seen such before. Alarming, because only one hypothesis was presented about usage...

Blogger bob k. mando April 13, 2015 5:33 PM  

NateM April 13, 2015 5:10 PM
This comes to mind. Guess which party the Ilk are


i'm hoping, "Not the lisping and fey trouser snake handler."

Blogger Markku April 13, 2015 5:33 PM  

It just occurs to me that although we were all very familiar with the SJW tactic of trying to get the enemy to denounce each other in panic, to save our own skin, we never had an example of it in such a nice and quotable form before. Fit for a Tweet, you know.

Blogger CarpeOro April 13, 2015 5:36 PM  

"You know, it is not as if Day's statements were misreported, or distorted, or hard to find."

No, not if you read them from the source. Of course, odds are pretty good that Vox is to eeeeevil to be read directly. He needs to read the comments off of a highly polished shield (lest he turn to stone. Make that jello... never mind). That or from one of the braver rabbits who have provided excerpts for him. Hardly the best choice. Funny how the non-rabbits actual examine the rabbits posts. Almost like wolves waiting for the rabbit to leave it's warren so they can eat dinner. The wolf that is, not the rabbit.

Blogger Daniel April 13, 2015 5:42 PM  

Related:

Sasquan Membership Rolls are Exploding

Also, Wil SJWheaton gets called out by his side for being a dick.

Somehow, GRRM got them to "Split off and surrender."

I don't like getting older, but boy oh boy I can't wait for 2016.

Blogger slarrow April 13, 2015 5:42 PM  

You know, for a guy grown famous for his intricate webs of deceit and political backstabbing (figurative and literal), Martin sure acts shocked that any kind of skulduggery could happen in real life. If he wrote Westeros like he imagines past Hugos, the worst thing that could happen would be the Starks not being invited to the yearly tournament at the capital.

Blogger bob k. mando April 13, 2015 5:42 PM  

Markku April 13, 2015 5:31 PM
Alarming, because only one hypothesis was presented about usage...



pretty sure 'bidet' is not the correct answer ...

Blogger Daniel April 13, 2015 5:44 PM  

And I resent the "not-so-merry" epithet. We're merry.

Bloody Merry.

Blogger Corvinus April 13, 2015 5:51 PM  

What would Correia and Torgelson debate with Vox about? Seems they are in agreement on those issues.
Unless there is something I'm missing.

Both are on record as saying exactly that, even... that they agree with him on more things than they disagree.

Martin's just playing games. It was stupid to suggest that either should debate Vox. He's just trying to get them to turn on each other: a classic SJW concern-troll tactic.


@Fran @Joshua Dyal
Exactly. He's trying to get Torgersen and Correia to be what Vox has grumbled about before: moderate conservatives who spend most of their energy shooting at their own side.

Blogger bob k. mando April 13, 2015 5:54 PM  

Daniel April 13, 2015 5:42 PM
Also, Wil SJWheaton



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1Vcbm-XWtg

why do you keep saying 'Wheaton'?

Blogger Mark Citadel April 13, 2015 5:54 PM  

Crap, I hadn't realized it before but the @chriswarcraft douchebag who said Vox should be shot is none other than... Chris Kluew, the failed Minnesota Vikings player who said he got fired because he was a pillow biter or some bullshit and made a total fool of himself. He also has a hilarious tirade against #gamergate.

Is this guy going for the princess' tiara of social justice? His entire life story appears to be one giant epic fail. Impotent rage from a person who used to run into other people for a living.

Anonymous Porky April 13, 2015 5:56 PM  

Can we please debate the serious problem of obesity in America?

Blogger Noah B April 13, 2015 5:56 PM  

Oh, you mean Sparklepunter

OpenID cailcorishev April 13, 2015 5:58 PM  

His pretense of moderation is mere pretense.

Yeah, he was able to maintain the puzzled, "Can't we all just get along?" pose for almost a whole post, but it fell apart soon after that. His writing skills may make him a more subtle concern troll than most, but he couldn't keep acting disinterested and score points for His Side at the same time, so he had to show his cards.

Blogger RobertT April 13, 2015 6:01 PM  

He's obviously asking for it. He should have a long talk with Scalzi before he mouths off any more.

Anonymous DavidKathome April 13, 2015 6:02 PM  

Maybe this is a dumb question, but why does Alexa rate Vox Day's blog below Scalzi's when Vox has more traffic?

Anonymous Amok Time April 13, 2015 6:03 PM  

"How does an author like GRRM see SJW's label him as a racist, and he does not defend himself? The man screams weak. "

Yes, weak, and he is afraid he might screw up his GOT cash cow. He doesn't want to look too confrontational or be less than a stand-up kind of guy. At 66, he just wants to count his bucks and sail off to retirement oblivion. He reminds me so much of all the lefty millionaires in the world that take the path of least resistance and when confronted about their views just smile and say they are misunderstood.

Somewhere, Jon Corzine, is smiling!

Anonymous NateM April 13, 2015 6:06 PM  

So hwhat did hWheaton do this time?

Anonymous DavidKathome April 13, 2015 6:10 PM  

This may be a dumb question, but why does Alexa rate Scalzi's blog higher than Vox Day's blog when Vox has more pageviews?

Blogger Mark Citadel April 13, 2015 6:10 PM  

Because Alexa is woefully inaccurate, and also controlled by SJW progtards. Its like Wikipedia.

Blogger bob k. mando April 13, 2015 6:12 PM  

muwahahahahahahahahaha.

Markku, you naughty boy. you've been campaigning with that fascist True Finn party for Sasquan votes, haven't you? Finland is 5th overall and lookit Uusimaa rocking it with 78 votes.

http://sasquan.org/member-numbers/

now if we can just get Golden Dawn, British National Party, Anonymous, UKIP and the National Front, we'll have this thing in the bag.

Blogger Mark Citadel April 13, 2015 6:15 PM  

Don't forget Aleksandr Dugin! the super evil Russian genius!

Anonymous WaterBoy April 13, 2015 6:17 PM  

1. From the linked GRRM blog post:

"Take this "Wrongfan" moniker I now see popping up on Puppy sites. Neither I nor any of the other SMOFs or trufans or worldconners that I know have ever called you or your friends "wrongfans." You guys made that up and applied it to yourself. I wish that would stop. People are saying enough hurtful shit in this debate already without making up new insults and suggesting that the other side was throwing them at you."

Erm...George...the "Wrongfan" designation is implied each and every single time you claim that YOUR side is "Trufan" -- as you just did, again. What do you think you are saying when you claim that there are two sides and your side is "True"; this implies that the other side is "Not True", does it not?

Antonyms for "true" include "wrong"; thus, "Wrongfan". Your side may not have coined or employed the word, but it is implicit every time you claim exclusivity to "true".

2. GRRM's use of "toad" is no doubt derivative of "toadie", seeing how every Voxpuppet is also a sycophant.

3. Correia/Torgersen vs Day debate on SP/RP:

C/T: "The Hugos are broken."
VD: "Yes, they are. You win."

End debate.

How boring.

Blogger bob k. mando April 13, 2015 6:19 PM  

ooooh, that's right.

we need to get Tommy Hass working on the muslim vote, Mint working on the Indonesian vote and ... say?

do we have anybody in China, Japan or Korea?

Blogger JCclimber April 13, 2015 6:19 PM  

My brother and cousin, both of whom have had similar tastes in the past in books to myself, urged me to read Game of Thrones back when it first came out. I read it and while it seemed like a good Fantasy novel, it was lacking something that at the time I just couldn't define. I told them that I wouldn't be joining them in reading the second novel when it came out.

Critics of the GOT series at this blog have helped me understand what was such a big turn off about that book. It had so much potential, being based (loosely) on earlier British history, but the underlying nihilism was aesthetically disgusting and it was enough to wreck the whole thing for me.

Now it becomes more clear what a moral vacuum the author inhabits and why the book is so much less than what it could have been.

Blogger Daniel April 13, 2015 6:20 PM  

Frank Wu is going to make an interesting cameo tomorrow. Don't tell me I don't know how to raise the dead.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus April 13, 2015 6:23 PM  

That's unfortunate. An honest debate would have brought a swift end to this. (It would have been amusing too, but that's a side-issue.)

A retreat from debate plus the retraction of George Martin's smears and implications would have at least left Vox the option to drop this.

Now that won't be possible.

Blogger JCclimber April 13, 2015 6:24 PM  

For Sasquan registrations, High numbers from California are not a good sign.

Every time I go into San Francisco public libraries, their Sci Fantasy section is filled up with SJW garbage on the shelves. Most copies are in mint condition.

The classic ones and the current ones which are good, are rarely on the shelf and have to be requested and put on hold. They look far more worn out and dog-eared. But there are usually 12 or more copies of Scalzi and Stross and other good rabbit books in their system. And only one or two copies of the good stuff.

The public librarians are firmly SJW in California, and I wouldn't doubt in most of the rest of Amerika too.

Blogger ajw308 April 13, 2015 6:26 PM  

attracting more and more toads to their respective ponds.
Is that PZ failing at making a biology analogy again?

The debate should be between VD and someone like Correia or Torgensen, between a Rabid Puppy and a Sad Puppy, to determine who really speaks for this "movement" and what its goals are.

Does that mean they'll accept the winner's points?

OpenID ciaranb April 13, 2015 6:28 PM  

I was initially puzzled why the man who created Tywin Lannister doesn't grok Theodore Beale.

Then it occurred to me. George Martin thinks men like these are mythological creatures. Like his dragons.

It must have come as a shock to him to encounter one in real life.

Anonymous Harsh April 13, 2015 6:28 PM  

People are saying enough hurtful shit in this debate already

I thought Georgie boy turned down Vox's offer to debate.

Anonymous MendoScot April 13, 2015 6:37 PM  

Martin's just playing games. It was stupid to suggest that either should debate Vox. He's just trying to get them to turn on each other: a classic SJW concern-troll tactic.

In transactional analysis "let's you and him fight" is a female game applied to raise her sexual value. Nonetheless, here I think it is just an inept attempt at divide your opponents forces, followed by disbelief that Larry and Brad aren't falling for it.

As for the rest, I don't think we need accept the honesty of his requests for specifics from Larry any more than his offer to debate. It's just a long-winded attempt at disqualify, disqualify, disqualify buried in a steaming heap of "more in sorrow than in anger".

Anonymous you big bowwy April 13, 2015 6:41 PM  

I hope your proud of you self, making the fat kid take his toys and go home.

Blogger Jim April 13, 2015 6:42 PM  

The debate should be between VD and someone like Correia or Torgensen, between a Rabid Puppy and a Sad Puppy, to determine who really speaks for this "movement" and what its goals are.

The Rabid Puppies speak for the Rabid Puppy movement, and the Sad Puppies speak for the Sad Puppy movement. Why do you need a debate to sort that out? How is this hard to grasp?

Anonymous jack April 13, 2015 6:44 PM  

@Alexander.

Yeah, Alex, after getting back on computer and reading the newest comments and noting the rapid increases in the con members I have been too impatient for confirms. Sorry Worldcon volunteers; I will hang loose. Just really wanting to tear into all that reading. I fully intend to read EVERY entry I can and hope to vote intelligently. That may be difficult as I am a huge Kratman, Wright, Rolf Nelson fan. Well, my vote for best new author is pretty much carved in stone right now. But, if we do not vote the merits of a work we sabotage our arguments for all this noise and effort.

Blogger bob k. mando April 13, 2015 6:46 PM  

i mean, seriously people.

truFen vs True Finn? and you think this is an accident?

truly, Vox has a dizzying intellect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_eZmEiyTo0&t=2m15s

Anonymous MendoScot April 13, 2015 6:47 PM  

And the toad comments? I don't believe for a moment that in all the years he has been in fandom he didn't have his nose in the Hayden's cracks. Won't debate Vox because half-savage, but look Teresa what I did for you!

Vox, I thought your insulting nickname for women tactic was ridiculous. Now, I'm not so sure. Martin's whiteknighting suggests that it rankles.

Anonymous kh123 April 13, 2015 6:49 PM  

"Do we have anybody in China, Japan or Korea?"

There's always Tobias for the Pinoy vote.

Blogger Nate April 13, 2015 6:51 PM  

" That may be difficult as I am a huge Kratman, Wright, Rolf Nelson fan. "

oh man... You know Rolf has been hard at work on the sequel to The Stars Came Back?

Anonymous Fran April 13, 2015 6:55 PM  

So GRR Martin gets insulted by the warren or someone from within, and he is perfectly cool with it.
Wait! He's Artie Fufkin, isn't he.
"I'm not asking, I'm telling you to kick me in the ass!"

Blogger bob k. mando April 13, 2015 6:56 PM  

Ann Morgan, Taylor and yttik can pick up the Crazy Eyed Female contingent, hopefully to include Ann Barnhardt.

Stickwick, Stingray and Sarahsdaughter can get the normal chicks.



kh123 April 13, 2015 6:49 PM
There's always Tobias for the Pinoy vote.



maybe we should let Michelle Malkin know about this?

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus April 13, 2015 6:56 PM  

JCclimber: "The public librarians are firmly SJW in California, and I wouldn't doubt in most of the rest of Amerika too."

Not just America.

Blogger Ken April 13, 2015 7:03 PM  

I had hoped that, perhaps, after reading his short fiction and Dying of the Light, that he was going through a slump with books 4 & 5.

Now, I have to explain to all my friends that I don't like his TV show because I don't like nihilistic expressionism, and that I have no hope for book 6 being anything more than a Slough of Despond. To hear that he is a morally weak individual is not surprising, but it is surely disappointing. I had hoped - as did many of my friends - that he was using SoIaF to point out how bad living carnally was, but, uh...yeah, I'm pretty sure he glories in it. Bummer.

Anonymous Musashi April 13, 2015 7:04 PM  

@Alexander: The 12 Vox-Days of Christmas.

Here's the rest....

12 No awards
11 Nielsens nullified
10 Jemisons jabbering
9 Scalzis simpering
8 Gammas groveling
7 Toads-a-talking
6 Half-savages
5 Weeping rabbits
....

Anonymous zen0 April 13, 2015 7:06 PM  

@ Mark Citadel

Impotent rage from a person who used to run into other people for a living.

Punters don't run into people. Punters try to not have people run into them.

@ ? > Martin's just playing games. It was stupid to suggest that either should debate Vox.

Perp to Good Cop, after beating by Bad Cop: "Shouldn't you have a talk with that guy? He could hurt somebody!"

Anonymous Scintan April 13, 2015 7:07 PM  

People are saying enough hurtful shit in this debate already without making up new insults and suggesting that the other side was throwing them at you.

So, let's check the math on this one:

Lefties calling righties toads = OK
Righties calling lefties SJW = Not OK
Lefties calling themselves Trufans = OK
Righties spinning Trufans into Wrongfans = Not OK
Mr. Martin insulting Mr. Day = OK
Mr. Martin calling for debate = OK
Mr. Martin calling for Mr. Correia to debate Mr. Day = OK
Mr. Martin calling for Mr. Torgersen to debate Mr. Day = OK
Mr. Day calling on Mr. Martin to debate Mr. Day = Not OK
Lefties misrepresenting what righties said (i.e. half-savage) = OK
Righties noting what lefties imply (i.e. wrongfan) = Not OK


Now, I'm sure we need more data to be 100% certain (right, Mr. Martin?), but I do believe it might possibly be fair to say that one can begin to see just the slightest hint of a pattern here.

Anonymous Not-So-Merry zen0 April 13, 2015 7:08 PM  

.> 7 Toads-a-talking

7 Toads-a-Tweeting

Blogger D. Lane April 13, 2015 7:10 PM  

Now, I'm sure we need more data to be 100% certain (right, Mr. Martin?), but I do believe it might possibly be fair to say that one can begin to see just the slightest hint of a pattern here.

Not to burst your bubble, but identifying a leftie pattern = Not OK

Blogger Nate April 13, 2015 7:11 PM  

"identifying a leftie pattern = Not OK"

Thanks for this. Ableism is the worst of all microaggressions. So brave.

Blogger bob k. mando April 13, 2015 7:12 PM  

Scintan April 13, 2015 7:07 PM
Not OK


Shirley, we can shorten that to "No K"?

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus April 13, 2015 7:19 PM  

So when can we expect Vox Day's apology and retraction?

Charlie Martin
Apr. 12th, 2015 08:50 pm (UTC)
Poor aim
George, I think the nicest thing I've ever said about Vox is that he's obnoxious and disliked -- as a song cue. But that said, this would seem an awful lot more sincere if your offer of reconciliation weren't "Since we stopped someone who was attacking our side, why don't you stop someone who's attacking our side?"

How about this: lets see more people speaking out against the lies being told about Corriera, Torgerson, et al -- you know, the ones that eventually forced Entertainment Weekly into an abject apology and correction?
Link | Reply | Thread
grrm
Apr. 12th, 2015 11:44 pm (UTC)
Re: Poor aim
Requires Hate was supposedly on "our side." A Social Justice Warrior, if you want to use that stupid term. Which led to far too many people who shared some aspect of her views to refrain from criticizing her, until Laura Mixon stepped forward.

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY did apologize and retract, by the way. Do you want a double-dog-dare-apology with sprinkles on it?

For what's it is worth, even Requires Hate apologized.

So when can we expect Vox Day's apology and retraction?

Link | Reply | Parent | Thread


When?

Anonymous Alexander April 13, 2015 7:21 PM  

Musashi, zeno

I note also that there one can replace the song name with simply the Vox Days of Christmas. And the opening is:

On the xth day of Christmas, a trufan gave to me...

Blogger automatthew April 13, 2015 7:25 PM  

Nate, your step 5 should read:


Step 5: (.)(.)

Blogger Markku April 13, 2015 7:26 PM  

Laaaast Worldcon
I gave No Award
But the very next year
You blew Hugos apart

Anonymous bw April 13, 2015 7:26 PM  

If that's true, it is terrifying

Perfect feminist rhetoric.

What's "terrifying" rabbit, is how fast Propaganda can work (and it does obviously, look at your anti-nature stance) in the other direction when the switch is flipped.
It's in the process of flipping. Choose you this day, son.

Anonymous kh123 April 13, 2015 7:28 PM  

"Shirley, we can shorten that to "No K"?"

I see what you did there. Velly nice.

Blogger Joshua Dyal April 13, 2015 7:28 PM  

@JCClimber. I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Your own evidence seems to dramatically contradict your conclusion. If the claus are circulating and the sjw bs is not, then clearly people in California prefer classic scifi to pink BS.

Blogger Mark Citadel April 13, 2015 7:29 PM  

"Punters don't run into people. Punters try to not have people run into them."

Yes... but we're talking about the 'controversially released' Chris Kluwe here, not somebody who actually knows how to punt, so I'll stick by my original statement. He ran into other people for a living. Then again...

"Kluwe was named the Grand Marshal of the 41st annual Twin Cities Pride festival in Minneapolis, Minnesota"

Maybe he did more than run into people... This sentence alone pretty much renders his output null and void.

Blogger Joshua Dyal April 13, 2015 7:30 PM  

Argh! Classics, not claus. Hate posting from my phone with its crazy autocorrect.

Anonymous NateM April 13, 2015 7:32 PM  

NateM April 13, 2015 5:10 PM
This comes to mind. Guess which party the Ilk are

i'm hoping, "Not the lisping and fey trouser snake handler."


I was thinking more the "Angry advancing king cobra" or the Gabon Viper lying in wait behind him as he retreats

Anonymous Scintan April 13, 2015 7:37 PM  

So when can we expect Vox Day's apology and retraction?

What is Vox Day supposed to retract and apologize for?

Blogger Daniel April 13, 2015 7:37 PM  

Wheaton wheatoned himself, and John Skylar - no fan of the puppies - responded:

"Let me ask you, wilwheaton: DID YOU NOMINATE FOR THE HUGOS? If you did, more power to you. If not, stop calling the SPs dickwagons and own up to your responsibility for this outcome.

I’d also like to point out the irony of Wil appending the phrase “dickwagon” to his post here while linking a post by GRR Martin saying how we need to maintain a civil tone in opposing the SP objectives because it will better sell the message that the SPs are problematic. Good job missing the point. But I digress. I was discussing taking responsibility."

Blogger Michael Maier April 13, 2015 7:37 PM  

"If you're not into gay male porn then I wouldn't bother with Game Of Thrones anyway."


Huh. I've heard there's a lot of sex and even incest. But I've never heard a single fan talk about lots of fag sex.

Am I wrong and just wasn't paying attention? Or is gay buggery so normal that folks don't even notice it any more?

Blogger Nate April 13, 2015 7:41 PM  

"
Huh. I've heard there's a lot of sex and even incest. But I've never heard a single fan talk about lots of fag sex."

There is a very high amount of graphic gay sex. Season one showed a dude get blow job from another dude... gay sex is not just implied... its shown... in at least 50% of the episodes.

Blogger bob k. mando April 13, 2015 7:44 PM  

Scintan April 13, 2015 7:37 PM
What is Vox Day supposed to retract and apologize for?



why, for George lying about him and slandering him. i should think that was obvious.

Anonymous Steve April 13, 2015 7:45 PM  

Daniel - I'm intrigued at being called a dickwagon, and by Wesley Crusher, no less.

How does he know my dick is girthy enough to carry five-to-seven comely pioneer women?

Blogger Hound April 13, 2015 7:46 PM  

"SJW garbage on the shelves. Most copies are in mint condition.

The classic ones and the current ones which are good, are rarely on the shelf and have to be requested and put on hold"

So... nobody is reading the SJW tripe, and everyone's reading the classics. That would be as good sign: even with the libraries packing the shelves with garbage, people would rather wait for a classic than both with the dross. That crap is mint because nobody touches it.

OpenID cailcorishev April 13, 2015 7:47 PM  

I was initially puzzled why the man who created Tywin Lannister doesn't grok Theodore Beale.

I've been thinking that Alphas (and Sigmas, I suppose) don't fare very well in his ASoIaF. They're either cardboard cutouts who exist to die, or they're actually kinda dopey and single-minded -- sort of the Gamma's image of a jock -- and there to make the "clever" characters look good. Or both. I'm sure there are exceptions (Jaime, for instance, was an Alpha, but he seems to be recovering, from what I can remember from the slog of the last two books); but in general, if a character seems Alpha, he's probably dead meat.

Blogger Michael Maier April 13, 2015 7:48 PM  

@ Nate... sounds like it makes Spartacus on STARZ look tame.

Blogger Doom April 13, 2015 8:03 PM  

Hahaha! Oh, heck, conservative enough to denounce? While I don't consider you a modern liberal, I don't think of you as conservative. That's not a denunciation, personally. And given general politics in America, calling you not a conservative, and denying that you are a modern liberal, is about as good of a thing as I could say about it, even when I disagree. If I could replace the GOP leadership with your type there wouldn't be a need to do anything to the Democrats, they would simply go away.

Actually, they are going away. They are Republicans now. But with the right political leadership, they would go away, whatever they call themselves. Much as SJW's are about to do in fiction, gaming, and some other areas. Gotta laugh... conservative enough to denounce? And, yes, I do count myself as conservative. I simply don't have a party to support, or more one that supports me, at the moment.

Blogger Nate April 13, 2015 8:06 PM  

"@ Nate... sounds like it makes Spartacus on STARZ look tame."

I have no idea. I don't really watch gladiator movies... because lets face it... it was a joke in Airplane! for a reason.

Blogger JAY WILL April 13, 2015 8:09 PM  

Ive watched most of Game of Thrones. Their depiction of men of war, soldier types is ridiculous. They portray them as idiots largely. John Snow and that ginger bird, who looked great naked, made me shake my head in annoyance. She basically ball breaked him continually, he backed down every time with this pained look on his face and lo and behold she rewards him with sex/love/validation when this could never happen in real life. His backing down SHOULD result in narrative death. And yet she loves him for it!! Hilarious! If only women did this in real life!!

Whatever happened to raping and pillaging? Kirk Douglas in The Vikings is much more real, the way he eats meat, the look on his face, dominance. All of the characters in GoT would be wiped away by a marauding force of Kirk Douglas types.

It all makes sense reading these blogs, the idea of socio-sexual hierarchy etc. The people writing this stuff are clueless about human nature. Modern TV/film is only great because its so wonderfully produced, slick, professional. If you watch old stuff you can see everything creaking. I hope this all works out great, Id love to see tv/film produce non-lefty stuff again. Its annoying to watch all the prog stuff on TV... I should get out more really.

Anonymous bw April 13, 2015 8:21 PM  

"If you're not into gay male porn then I wouldn't bother with...

So you're on the record as being morally and politically against homosexuality then, correct?

Blogger James Dixon April 13, 2015 8:23 PM  

> Has GRRM deleted the comments made by nathancherolis and douglas_wardell?

I think they were on an earlier thread, as all of the comments on this one are dated today. This thread has the comment about going to 23 though.

> I say we don't stop at 23, I say we go OVER 9000

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDe5gqENpgA :)

> Also, an impolitic fool. Does he not think with a readership as big as Vox's that there might be some overlap between Vox's merry toads and people who buy his books?

Well, there used to be...

Blogger Corvinus April 13, 2015 8:23 PM  

I was initially puzzled why the man who created Tywin Lannister doesn't grok Theodore Beale.

I've been thinking that Alphas (and Sigmas, I suppose) don't fare very well in his ASoIaF. They're either cardboard cutouts who exist to die, or they're actually kinda dopey and single-minded -- sort of the Gamma's image of a jock -- and there to make the "clever" characters look good. Or both. I'm sure there are exceptions (Jaime, for instance, was an Alpha, but he seems to be recovering, from what I can remember from the slog of the last two books); but in general, if a character seems Alpha, he's probably dead meat.


There's Vox's post from a month or two ago:
Writing Sociosexuality

I've never bothered to read GRRM's original books; I only watched some of the TV series, so I wouldn't be able to judge on his characters' sociosexuality, or at least GRRM's attempts at simulating their sociosexual rank. I'll let others do that.

Blogger Cataline Sergius April 13, 2015 8:25 PM  

Martin's post was pure unadulterated Gamma.

Pretty much what I expected.

All of it was deflection, in the guise of being the older and wiser man. There was no real engagement of Larry's points at all. Martin is in full on protect the lie mode. Refusing to acknowledge we are being lied about.

Fine, George R. R. Martin is as fundamentally dishonest as any other Gamma male.

I was expecting it. Now we've got that out of the way.

Blogger Eric April 13, 2015 8:31 PM  

And then the Hugos will pretty much be dead, and the world of science fiction will be that much the poorer.

I don't see that the Hugos have added anything to "the world of science fiction" in recent years, unless you're using a very special definition of "world".

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 13, 2015 8:32 PM  

George R R Martin is not just a boomer, at 66 he's one of the leading edge boomers, just a year or two behind Clinton, GW Bush, etc.

That leading edge demographic got used to having its own way before they were 10. Some habits never change.

Remember, Disneyland was originally built for them.

Anonymous Holmwood April 13, 2015 8:40 PM  

Maybe this is a dumb question, but why does Alexa rate Vox Day's blog below Scalzi's when Vox has more traffic?

I pointed this out some years back here, ahead of Vox doing so. Blogspot assigns blogs to national regions; blogspot.com in the US, blogspot.ca in Canada, .co.uk in the UK etc.

For example, Vox's blog in the UK is ~12,500. Even his co.uk site makes top 430k in the US (/boggle).

Aggregate the traffic split across dozens of national blogs for Vox Day in Alexa and you'll get a more realistic comparison, albeit one that is still sampled (the second problem) rather than actually measured traffic.

And finally (third point of departure in stats), Vox's readership is likely more internationally diverse than John Scalzi's, giving him a larger international share than Scalzi, again reflected in international rankings.

For a very crude apples to apples comparison on Alexa, Vox is circa 12.5k in the UK, and John Scalzi is circa 91k on Alexa. Check for yourself. I suspect Mr. Scalzi is being underrated there and Vox slightly overrated [the US traffic for Vox's UK blogspot site is a bit iffy, though only 10%], but it is certainly suggestive as to the relative ranks of the two blogs.

Similarly Vox is 42k in India; I'd be very surprised indeed if Mr. Scalzi broke 100k there.

-Holmwood

Anonymous FP April 13, 2015 8:55 PM  

"Am I wrong and just wasn't paying attention? Or is gay buggery so normal that folks don't even notice it any more?"

Southpark's take:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCadjRCyhcw

Floppy wieners song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjzC2DRgEo4

Blogger bob k. mando April 13, 2015 9:09 PM  

oh ho! if we can get a billion Indians in on this ... ha, ha, ha.

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