ALL BLOG POSTS AND COMMENTS COPYRIGHT (C) 2003-2016 VOX DAY. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. REPRODUCTION WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED.

Thursday, April 16, 2015

Two tribes and an alien invasion

Brad Torgersen explains his view of tribalism in science fiction:
The Hugos (and the Worldcon tribe alike) brand the Hugo as the award for the entirety of SF/F: books, stories, movies, television, music, art, you name it. This is not just the totem of the single SF/F tribe. This is the totem of all the SF/F tribes.

But the single tribe (Worldcon) wants the exclusive right to decide how the totem gets distributed — to which tribe members, and for what kinds of work.

It’s the totem of all, but to be decided by only some.

That — right there — is the root of the conflict. Totem of of all, decided by some. Sad Puppies 3 (and to a certain extent, Sad Puppies 2 and Sad Puppies 1) made the audacious claim that the totem for all, should be decided by all. Anyone willing to pay the poll tax (Worldcon membership) should have a say. We invited everyone to the democratic process. We didn’t care who was or was not in the “tribe” of World Science Fiction Society. This is the totem of all! And the rules pretty much make it so that all can participate!

But the Worldcon tribe — or at least certain vocal members within the tribe — have gone full-retard-tribal about the affront to “their” award, and “their” convention. So it’s tribe-vs-tribe. Are you in-tribe or out-tribe? How can anyone tell? Are you “of the body” of the tribe? Were you inculcated? No? Then what the hell are you doing coming to our tribal ground and fucking with our totem? It’s ours, dammit! Not yours! Ours!!

Protestations about propriety are merely bureaucratic dressing for tribal reactionary mud-slinging.

Mud-slinging which was taken to the broader media by a few tribe-members determined to “nuke” us invaders: Sad Puppies.

But not just us alone. We were almost incidental. The partisans of the Worldcon tribe had a more serious foe in mind.

Because of all the things most frightening to the Worldcon tribe, the worst are the Visigoths of Vox Day. Not just an out-tribe, Vox and his fans represent an explicitly war-like and hostile tribe, come to seize the totem by brute means. So, some of the Worldcon tribe said, “No, we will destroy the totem first, before we let the Visigoths have it!” To which the Visigoths and their heathen king Vox replied, “If you destroy it this year, we will most certainly destroy it next year — and there is nothing you can do to stop us!”

Now, the heathen king is terrifying to the Worldcon tribe. He is a literal barbarian. He talks and walks and threatens like a barbarian. He’s not precisely the guy anyone planned on walking through the democratic door. But because the Hugo voting process is democratic, nobody can be barred for purely tribal reasons. You pay your poll tax, you get a vote. The Worldcon tribe stares at both Sad Puppies 3 and the Rabid Puppies with equal dismay.
Brad's analogy makes sense, for the most part, but it misses one crucial detail because he is not of the Rabid Puppies. We're not the barbarians. As it happens, they are. We are a foreign culture, possibly less numerous, but with much better technology, discipline, and foresight. We appear hostile and warlike, to be sure, but only because our thinking and objectives are entirely alien to them. Not only do they not understand us, but they have not even made any effort to do so. Nor would it likely avail them much if they did, if this reaction by one member of the Worldcon tribe is any indication:
I think you really hit the nail on the head about tribalism. While I don’t feel tribalism in general about everyone different from me politically, I have felt very strong fear and vile about… that other guy, you know, the one who you won’t (and shouldn’t) unperson. :) I have spent a lot of time on his blog and, to be frank, it terrifies me. It made me feel sick yet I couldn’t stop reading. I began going through his historical archives and a lot of his views on suffrage and marital relationships, in particular, made me feel nauseous. And what is the kneejerk reaction when someone like that makes us so sick… ban them, shun them, etc. And I think that is why GRRM asks you that question. Because He Who Should Not be Named isn’t just the “other side”, but someone who openly espouses, IMO, horrible, horrible views. I know he says that he doesn’t, but I can’t help but define his statements as misogynistic and racist.

Yet, the more I’ve thought about it, and read your words, I guess if you truly are going to be inclusive, that voice has the right to be heard as well, no matter how much it may scare or bother us. I personally believe that if we were to stop shouting about him as much or shouting at him and just back off and let him come and do what he wants, he actually would, in a way, “lose” some of his power.

When I said fear, I was trying to be more general of all of us on the left “side” but I’ll try to be more clear. I guess I fear the fact that such… Nasty sentiments still exist in this day and age. It’s hard for me to comprehend. It’s not just his views… It’s the very insulting terminology he uses. And again, this is from actually reading years worth of his posts. The comparisons to training a wife like an animal, insulting the physical features of women he deems unattractive, he is a very mean, cruel person and I feel fear that those mindsets and hateful way of speaking still exists. He also seems to feel pride in his hateful words.

For what it’s worth, I’ve also spent a lot of time reading Wright’s blog. Like I said, I was determined to do my research and not just repeat what others have said. In terms of Wright, I actually agree with you. While I obviously don’t agree with a lot of his views, I didn’t find him to be purposely mean at all. As you said, hate the sin, love the sinner. I have actually seen that Christian mindset in him, Brad, and others. Nothing about VD comes off as Christian. He is mean to people, plain and simple. Nothing to do with just disagreeing, he goes out of his way to call people fat, ugly women look like a tranny, and way too many other numerous comments. It actually emotionally hurt reading many of his blogs. I never felt that way reading Brad, Larry, or Wright, even if I didn’t agree with their view....

I have no real, actual complaint. I was just speaking of my perceptions.
Despite her pain and fear, the commenter is, surprisingly enough, correct for the most part. Silencing us is not an option. They have no power to do so. Shouting at us is pointless. We don't listen to them or care what they say. Shouting about us is also pointless. That only spreads our message and wins us more sympathy within their own tribe and among their allies.

They're in the position of Flatlanders attempting to defend against an opponent operating in three dimensions. We can come at them any time we want from directions they don't even know exist. But we don't need to come at them at all. We have our own objectives that they would not credit even if we explained them fully and in detail; they can no more grasp them than a Flatlander can comprehend a cube.

For example, I have repeatedly stated for more than a year now that I have no particular interest in the Hugo Awards. I still don't. Had they simply voted my work last year into last place and left it at that, I would never have even looked at the Worldcon rules. But once I was accused of gaming the system to obtain a 6 of 5 reward, I naturally decided to take a look at them. The rest, everyone knows.

The Dread Ilk are not a barbarian tribe that wants to take the land of the Worldcon tribe. We are an advanced foreign civilization that is simply going about its business in what naturally appears to be an inexplicable manner. We're quite content to leave the primitives alone so long as they stay out of our way, but if a few of them decide to loose arrows at us as we work, we will respond with lasers and cobalt bombs without even thinking twice about it. Or paying any attention to the collateral damage.

My advice to the Worldcon community is very simple: don't dig the hole deeper. Don't scream at us, don't insult us, don't "send a message", just settle down and do what you've always done and vote for whatever works you find to be the best, or the least offensive. Smile and politely do your jazz hands if a few of ours happen to claim the totem this year. We have no intention of camping the Hugos unless you give us a reason to do so. I have absolutely no desire to ever have as many Hugo nominations as Arthur C. Clarke, let alone Robert Heinlein or Isaac Asimov, but annoy me enough and I promise you that I will end up with more than David Hartwell and Mike Glyer combined.

There is nothing to stop the Worldcon tribe from continuing to double-down until it is destroyed entirely. It's their call. The situation rather reminds me of a conflict I once had with a very large, wealthy and arrogant publisher. All they had to do was send me a letter. A one-page letter. Nothing more. But they wouldn't, for various reasons that mostly have to do with pride. They firmly believed that there was no way that two young game designers in Minnesota could do anything about it.

Eighteen months later, they gave me the letter, a very large check, and not long after, went out of business. All I wanted was a letter. And I got the letter, unfortunately, I had to publicly eviscerate a large publicly-traded company in order to get it. Plus hundreds of thousands of dollars for my trouble. Whether the Worldcon tribe stands down or doubles-down is largely irrelevant to me. I will achieve my objectives in either case. But I really would prefer to minimize any unnecessary collateral damage.

Labels: ,

248 Comments:

1 – 200 of 248 Newer› Newest»
Blogger Markku April 16, 2015 8:07 AM  

Yes, their downfall is that they don't spare a moment's thought to what motivates us. How we managed to raise this much support - $40 is not nothing, though for most of our audience it is chump change - without offering carrot nor stick. They basically think of us as demons. That all of us are just doing evil for evil's sake. That we simply point somewhere and say "go forth, our demons, and self-sacrificially destroy".

Had they indeed given it a moment's thought, they would not have operated in the most self-destructive way possible.

Anonymous James April 16, 2015 8:16 AM  

The Visigoths? No.

More the Vandals, a much maligned peopled if ever there were. The Visigoths were brutes in comparison.

Blogger Michael Maier April 16, 2015 8:16 AM  

THIS should be the most terrifying post on your blog ever to the Rabbits.

But they'll snicker and figure "Yeah, right" and continue shrieking about a full-savage twit Negress.

Blogger Markku April 16, 2015 8:16 AM  

Although GRRM, at least in his initial response, seemed to show evidence of at least a few functional braincells. But as for the rest of them, NOTHING.

Blogger john black April 16, 2015 8:18 AM  

At first I thought the person writing the second comment was a man, and my immediate impression was, "this guy is the most cowardly gamma I've ever seen. How do you get so 'nauseous' reading political opinions'?"

I haven't participated in Sad/Rabid Puppies yet, but I plan on doing so next year and bringing others with me. You've started something, Vox, something the others could have avoided.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan April 16, 2015 8:20 AM  

How old is that female who wrote that blog post? As if a world of billions of people an ignorant female has the right to claim she and her cult alone are the bearers of universal truth, she is an utter embarrassment, the tarded child allowed to speak

Blogger Krul April 16, 2015 8:24 AM  

"They're in the position of Flatlanders attempting to defend against an opponent operating in three dimensions."

Blogger Salt April 16, 2015 8:27 AM  

But they'll snicker and figure "Yeah, right"

People are like that, whether even of left or right. I once had a, ahem, professional organization want to get involved in my life. One of their attorneys wasn't to happy about the size of the file I was creating. I asked him if he wanted me to double it. It can take a while, but keep it up and the message will eventually get through.

Blogger Markku April 16, 2015 8:28 AM  

As for Brad, it's hilarious how nobody seems to understand, or at least they pretend to not understand, what he is saying. I would paraphrase it like this: "Yes, Vox's views on the average psychology of members of certain races trouble me. However, the wider phenomenon is so common that it is not enough to warrant me denouncing him just because you have an especially ugly word for this particular type of tribalism, and constantly throw it around as a scare tactic".

Anonymous Anonymous April 16, 2015 8:29 AM  

It seems to me that the squee party is gamma in trait. Pride is the very thing they cannot willingly give up. This ends in blood because gamma is sobered only by being crushed.

-Bystander

Blogger Joshua_D April 16, 2015 8:30 AM  

Relevant

Blogger Krul April 16, 2015 8:31 AM  

I guess I fear the fact that such… Nasty sentiments still exist in this day and age....I feel fear that those mindsets and hateful way of speaking still exists.

Gee, that's familiar. Where have I heard that before? What dashingly handsome devil made a similar observation here?

Oh yeah!

"When you get down to it, the thing that drives these people crazy, the thing that they absolutely cannot stand, is the mere fact that we exist. We right thinking people. Our existence is a constant source of stress for them."

Blogger Leatherwing April 16, 2015 8:31 AM  

More like Roman legions than barbarians. SJWs are the ones that cling to superstition and tribal rituals that have always worked against other superstitious folk. They don't understand why it's not working now. So they are calling for one from this side to denounce him - see, it will work if the ritual shunning is spoken by one of his own!!

Anonymous Lulabelle April 16, 2015 8:32 AM  

Sometimes I wonder if the liberals and sjws screech and cover their ears because inwardly, they're afraid if they actually "hear" what the other side is saying (about race, women, etc) they might change their views.

Anonymous Athor Pel April 16, 2015 8:41 AM  

I hope the obververs of all this will take note of a key fact. This is at its core a spiritual battle. What Vox has been doing is devising weapons for unmasking and dealing with the guiding spirits of these deaf and blind puppets. These tools allow you to stop wasting time on those that are unreachable and to correctly identify those that have the highest chance to hear the truth.

Blogger Krul April 16, 2015 8:44 AM  

Yet, the more I’ve thought about it, and read your words, I guess if you truly are going to be inclusive, that voice has the right to be heard as well, no matter how much it may scare or bother us.

It's like watching a neglected mind's clumsy yet courageous attempt to break through the dark shell of irrational feelings into the harsh yet beautiful light of reason. I feel like Richard Attenborough in the hatching scene from Jurassic Park.

"Come on! Come on, little one! Very good! Push!"

Blogger Alexander Thompson April 16, 2015 8:54 AM  

This makes me wonder how much can their award be hijacked. Can Star Wars or Halo fans get their novels nominated next year?

Blogger AmyJ April 16, 2015 8:54 AM  

"I have spent a lot of time on his blog and, to be frank, it terrifies me. It made me feel sick yet I couldn’t stop reading. I began going through his historical archives and a lot of his views on suffrage and marital relationships, in particular, made me feel nauseous."

What a precious little snowflake! I wonder if it's the type of nausea I feel for SJWs who knowingly and openly embrace pedophiles like Marion Zimmer Bradley simply because they share similar political views.

Blogger David April 16, 2015 9:01 AM  

The delusional are terrified of the space between their illusions and reality, fearing that if they see the chasm they'll have no choice but to throw themselves into it.

If sanity is acting in a relentless quest to narrow the distance between understanding and reality, what does it say about those who act like petulant children being told the truth but react by jamming their fingers in their ears?

Han Hermann Hoppe has shown that democracy (real or thought to be real) infantilizes people. Statements of those who cling to the outcome-equalitarian fantasies of multiculturalism and 3rd wave feminism read like those written by perpetual children.

Blogger Rabbi B April 16, 2015 9:01 AM  

" . . . that is simply going about its business in what naturally appears to be an inexplicable manner."

It never ceases to amaze (and amuse) me how much quietly minding one's own business can piss so many people off. Truly, one of the great mysteries of the universe.

Anonymous joe doakes April 16, 2015 9:01 AM  

It's like a bad high school sit-com.

"Teresa is Homecoming Queen again. How is that possible, she's a stuck-up B?"

"She was elected."

"By who? Nobody I know voted for her."

"Oh, by the cheerleaders. Only the cheerleaders vote for Queen, which is why a cheerleader always wins. Sometimes it's a Black cheerleader, once it was an Asian cheerleader, but always a cheerleader."

"Yeah, but, Homecoming is supposed to be an all-school event, the Queen represents the best of us. We all should have a say. What if us geeks get together to vote for one of us?"

"Then Old Mr. Martin, the homeroom teacher, would lecture us for being ungentlemanly, for upsetting the girls, for violating tradition, and anyway aren't cheerleaders prettier than geeks so it only makes sense to elect one of His Girls? And stay away from that guy with the mohawk, he's scary."

I'm pretty sure it was an episode of Glee. Minus the singing, of course. But I distinctly remember the Bad Boy in the black leather jacket. Vox, have you been moonlighting?

Anonymous Alexander April 16, 2015 9:03 AM  

How sheltered do you have to be?

Even if you only became aware of the wider world a month ago, surely ISIS and the Boyz from Boko alone would be enough to shatter the belief that everyone in this world wants nothing more than hugs and jazz hands. Vox pointing out that women follow the strong horse is small potatoes in the 'i can't believe people still have these views' department compared to turning Nigerian villagers into chili while you enslave the women...

Every day, I get a better appreciation for just how instinctual tharn really is to these people.

Blogger ScuzzaMan April 16, 2015 9:05 AM  

Has anyone asked the Con what they think about these two tribes going to war - "the money's more than you can score" - by buying their $40 dues?

Because it seems like this is the best thing that ever happened to them, financially speaking.

Blogger M. Bibliophile April 16, 2015 9:06 AM  

It amuses me endlessly when those who have at best a small understanding of our religion attempt to call out Vox as in Christian. The bigger laugh is when they hold up John C. Wright as a contrast, when they are in fact two sides of the same aureas. People who learned Christianity in Sunday School but chose to never go deeper forget that Christ drove the money changers from the temple with a whip, and never learned the names of St Ambrose, St John Chrysostum, or St Bernard (Durant's Hound of Heresy).

Blogger Joshua Dyal April 16, 2015 9:07 AM  

Because it seems like this is the best thing that ever happened to them, financially speaking.

There's always war profiteers. Even if it's accidental.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 April 16, 2015 9:07 AM  

We haven't even begun to fight. Right now, we're just shooting spitballs and throwing sticks at them.

The big guns are yet to come...

Blogger M. Bibliophile April 16, 2015 9:08 AM  

Un-Christian, not in Christian, you irritating algorhythm.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus April 16, 2015 9:12 AM  

Leatherwing: "They don't understand why it's not working now. So they are calling for one from this side to denounce him - see, it will work if the ritual shunning is spoken by one of his own!!"

Just so.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus April 16, 2015 9:20 AM  

Alexander Thompson: "This makes me wonder how much can their award be hijacked. Can Star Wars or Halo fans get their novels nominated next year?"

Are there enough Star Wars of Halo spin-off authors who wouldn't refuse nomination?

Blogger rcocean April 16, 2015 9:20 AM  

Her remarks on Christianity were amusing. Evidently, she has no problem with the fact that so many SJW's are God hating athiests, nor does she care how nasty and "unchristian" they are to Vox and everyone on his side. IOW, its just the usual phony, Left-wing, Alinksy driven, interjection of Christianity: "Make the other side live up to their principles"

OpenID marsascendant April 16, 2015 9:21 AM  

Vox, I have been a daily reader here for some time now. I keep coming back because regardless of whether or not I agree with you or not on any given issue, you do present arguments that make me think. I could care less for your tone, or how "mean" it is. In fact I rather enjoy watching a well deserved dressing down, especially if it imparts decent ideas and information at the same time. But though I have been reading your blog for a while. I cant say I really have a sense of who you are beyond a sharp mind, sharper tongue, and a complete lack of fucks to give.

So tell me. Who are you? What is your "mission statement", both as it regards the Hugos and in general. What do you want, whom do you serve and why?

And just to be clear I'm not asking about your view of sex or race, that I can read for myself. I also don't give a shit about what people call you. Larry Summers attempted to make some of the same points you have (and far more politely) and the same people called him all the familiar names. But I am truly interested in how you see, and more importantly define yourself, and genuinely curious as to what you are working towards.

Anonymous Anonymous April 16, 2015 9:26 AM  

Vox, keep up the good work!

OpenID cailcorishev April 16, 2015 9:28 AM  

"And what is the kneejerk reaction when someone like that makes us so sick… ban them, shun them, etc."

It's interesting that she assumes this is how normal human beings react to those whose opinions they dislike -- to shun them and try to drive them out of the tribe. I don't. I'm pretty sure Vox doesn't. Socrates certainly didn't. If anything, when I run across someone whose words or actions disgust me, I try to understand him, to figure out what could make a person think and do those things. That doesn't mean I invite him into my house or encourage him -- I'm more likely to study him from a distance -- but neither do I try to get him suppressed or crucified.

I don't think that's because I'm especially noble; I think that's just normal human intellectual curiosity when it hasn't been squelched by group-think and fear. So no, it's not "normal" to reflexively try to ban people whose ideas you don't like; that's a tyrannical impulse that belongs to particular groups and ideologies. To SJWs, it's as natural as flinching when you touch something hot.

Anonymous omar's running shoes April 16, 2015 9:31 AM  

They are confused because they fail to use the tools required to solve the puzzle, namely logic and reason. Everything they say is based on feelings and emotion- not that there is anything wrong with that, but it will not solve a problem for you. Hence the endless circling back to "why do they upset me so much?"

Let's be clear here.

If you say that your basic premise is inclusion and diversity, yet you endlessly agitate to exclude and narrow your allowable parameters for in-group, you just might be a SJW.

If you claim that race is a social construct, then blame white men for your problems, you just might be a sjw.

If you believe that men and women are equal, but demand that government intercede on your behalf because of your gender, you just might be a sjw.

If you believe that gender can be "reassigned" based on how someone feels inside, but claim that gays are "born that way", you just might be a sjw.

If you refer to the founders as "old, dead white men" yet rely on the political system that they invented to protect you, you just might be a sjw.

All of it, every last jot and tittle is predicated upon things that they don't really believe, but rather feel.

Anonymous Culture War Draftee April 16, 2015 9:33 AM  

We're not Visigoths? Then what am I going to do with all this black clothing and dark eyeliner?

Anonymous Roundtine April 16, 2015 9:37 AM  

I haven't participated in Sad/Rabid Puppies yet, but I plan on doing so next year and bringing others with me.

You can still join this year. I don't know what the signup deadline is for voting in this year's awards, but they haven't even sent the voting packet yet.

Anonymous WhiteKnightLeo April 16, 2015 9:37 AM  

I never did figure out why black clothes and eyeliner was attributed to the Visgoths.

Anonymous hygate April 16, 2015 9:37 AM  

"I have spent a lot of time on his blog and, to be frank, it terrifies me. It made me feel sick yet I couldn’t stop reading. I began going through his historical archives and a lot of his views on suhfrage and marital relationships, in particular, made me feel nauseous."

In my experience this kind of thinking is pretty common. Most people's beliefs are held solely due to their being taught them in their formative years, have never been examined critically, and are key component of their identity. And the individual is almost always very parochial (though if you call them on this they will deny it vehemently.)

Its not just that they have never encountered ideas different than their own, its that they haven't really considered the idea that ideas different than their own could be held by other human beings. Thus the call to unperson Vox. He is not very different from a demon to a large segment of the SJW crowd. Metaphorically he is sporting horns and a tail and is wielding a pitchfork.

Anonymous Stilicho April 16, 2015 9:38 AM  

They are still so amusingly desperate to get the Sad Puppies to out-group the Rabid Puppies. They simply cannot comprehend that A) these are 2 separate groups with separate goals and B) It wouldn't matter one bit if they achieved their rabbitish aims. Nor do they grasp the fact that authorial defections from the proposed slate among the left-wing authors was anticipated from the start and that such defections do not affect the success of the Rabid Puppies one way or another except to provide further proof of the exclusionary, left-wing nature of the Hugos in recent years. Hell, if the trend continues, I would not be surprised to see some of the SJW's effectively joining the Sad Puppies in an effort to be on the winning side in some fashion and to try to create a rift with the Rabid Puppies via their usual infiltration and sabotage tactics.

It's enough to make Anonymous Conservative's work appear divinely inspired.

Anonymous Old Man in a Villa April 16, 2015 9:40 AM  

"I began going through his historical archives and a lot of his views on suffrage and marital relationships, in particular, made me feel nauseous."

And I would bet anything that she thinks women should be allowed in combat MOS.

Nauseous? Maybe bad shrimp or the flu, but from opinions? Is that even possible or might this be...wait for it...hyperbole?

Blogger JartStar April 16, 2015 9:40 AM  

Vox is bad because he makes me feel bad about the world when I read his words.

Blogger Kryten 2X4B 523P April 16, 2015 9:42 AM  

Irony clearly has a sense of humour when a bunch of self proclaimed "elites" in the field of speculative fiction cant even begin to comprehend a completely alien mindset to themselves - one would have thought that a prerequisite for trying to write a convincing AI or alien race.

They would be the ones soiling themselves in a real First Contact scenario.

Blogger Douglas Wardell April 16, 2015 9:43 AM  

My advice to the Worldcon community is very simple: don't dig the hole deeper. Don't scream at us, don't insult us, don't "send a message", just settle down and do what you've always done and vote for whatever works you find to be the best, or the least offensive. Smile and politely do your jazz hands if a few of ours happen to claim the totem this year. We have no intention of camping the Hugos unless you give us a reason to do so. I have absolutely no desire to ever have as many Hugo nominations as Arthur C. Clarke, let alone Robert Heinlein or Isaac Asimov, but annoy me enough and I promise you that I will end up with more than David Hartwell and Mike Glyer combined.

There is nothing to stop the Worldcon tribe from continuing to double-down until it is destroyed entirely. It's their call. The situation rather reminds me of a conflict I once had with a very large, wealthy and arrogant publisher. All they had to do was send me a letter. A one-page letter. Nothing more. But they wouldn't, for various reasons that mostly have to do with pride. They firmly believed that there was no way that two young game designers in Minnesota could do anything about it.

Eighteen months later, they gave me the letter, a very large check, and not long after, went out of business. All I wanted was a letter. And I got the letter, unfortunately, I had to publicly eviscerate a large publicly-traded company in order to get it. Plus hundreds of thousands of dollars for my trouble. Whether the Worldcon tribe stands down or doubles-down is largely irrelevant to me. I will achieve my objectives in either case. But I really would prefer to minimize any unnecessary collateral damage.



"...what I do have are a very particular set of skills; skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you. If you [stop] now, that'll be the end of it. I will not look for you, I will not pursue you. But if you don't, I will look for you, I will find [your weaknesses], and I will [pwn] you."

Anonymous Alexander April 16, 2015 9:43 AM  

From a comment on GRRM's next bit of nonsense,

I've been racking my brain trying to think of some sort of positive solution to all this, as I'm sure many have. How about this for a constructive suggestion?


1) the main puppy complaint seems to be they feel excluded from the awards because the stuff they like doesn't win.


So how about creating a new Hugo for Best Military Sci-fi or something? an award where those who feel disenfranchised can happily nominated their favourite rollicking guns and explosions stuff. Thus, the disenfranchised feel as if they have a voice in the awards, they're included, and maybe we can all get along again.


I believe we call that a 'token'. My understanding is that was something that SJWs were very very very much against.

Anonymous Stilicho April 16, 2015 9:44 AM  

More the Vandals, a much maligned peopled if ever there were. The Visigoths were brutes in comparison.

Thank you. It's nice to be understood from time to time.

Blogger Krul April 16, 2015 9:49 AM  

"1) the main puppy complaint seems to be they feel excluded from the awards because the stuff they like doesn't win. "

Anonymous Maria Hatchback April 16, 2015 9:50 AM  

"I've been racking my brain trying to think of some sort of positive solution to all this, as I'm sure many have. How about this for a constructive suggestion?


1) the main puppy complaint seems to be they feel excluded from the awards because the stuff they like doesn't win.


So how about creating a new Hugo for Best Military Sci-fi or something? an award where those who feel disenfranchised can happily nominated their favourite rollicking guns and explosions stuff. Thus, the disenfranchised feel as if they have a voice in the awards, they're included, and maybe we can all get along again."

Ooooh, wait, how about their own water fountain at the next convention?

Separate, but equal?

You can't make this shit up.

Blogger SarahsDaughter April 16, 2015 9:51 AM  

It’s hard for me to comprehend

If this is true, than this:

He also seems to feel pride in his hateful words.

must be projection.

She references her fear five times in the comment she must be quite proud of that fear.

It made me feel sick yet I couldn’t stop reading.

She needs psychological help.

Blogger Bogey April 16, 2015 9:53 AM  

@Markku, yeah, GRRM wasn't quite the knee-jerk screecher that the rest have been.

I think it's a mistake for anyone to pull their work from award consideration. If nothing else the Hugo rocket is a pretty cool looking award. It would look nice sitting up on a mantle.

Anonymous omar's running shoes April 16, 2015 9:53 AM  

"Thus, the disenfranchised feel as if they have a voice..."

Her screen name should be Jim Crow.

I laughed until I felt nauseous.

Blogger jay c April 16, 2015 9:55 AM  

1) the main puppy complaint seems to be they feel excluded from the awards because the stuff they like doesn't win.

Point proven. Case closed.

Blogger Bogey April 16, 2015 9:55 AM  

...and this Connie Willis bows out.

Blogger Plump Pleasant Plumber April 16, 2015 9:56 AM  

Here's an amusing thought! The Hugo award is functionally worthless. However, Vox is spankin' rump because he's spreading an idea whose time has come. Men aren't manginas. We ain't entertained by mangina fluff. Plain fact is, women are problematic in combat. Hard sci-fi reflects that. Don't call pink unicorn sci-fi mainstream. Quit with the marxist tactics. The Dread Ilk isn't going away, so, pack your frilly pink panties and go somewhere we can't find you.

Blogger CM April 16, 2015 9:58 AM  

"I began going through his historical archives and a lot of his views on suffrage and marital relationships, in particular, made me feel nauseous."

As a woman who doesn't always agree with vox and thinks that he is quite mean in how he addresses issues (what does that matter?), I can't grasp what, on those issues, was so alarming that she feels sick to her stomach over it.

She should read more mra blogs. Vox is positively moderate compared to a lot of others.

At least Vox still believes male-female relationships are necessary to civilization and isn't advocating reproductive robot technology to replace all woman-kind.

Anonymous lulabelle April 16, 2015 10:00 AM  

"Ooooh, wait, how about their own water fountain at the next convention?

Separate, but equal?

You can't make this shit up."

lol. That needs to be posted on GRRM's thread.

Anonymous hygate April 16, 2015 10:01 AM  

Once I found out that the Hugos were controlled by a small cabal of insiders whose idea of what constitutes good science fiction is completely different than mine and that for the low low price of $40 bucks, which also gets you access to lots of fiction, I could get my voice heard I thought, "hey, I should get involved."

Somehow that makes me evil.

Blogger Krul April 16, 2015 10:02 AM  

CM - reproductive robot technology to replace all woman-kind.

Good God. What a nightmare.

Someone should write a dystopian science fiction story about that.

Blogger SarahsDaughter April 16, 2015 10:03 AM  

I can't grasp what, on those issues, was so alarming that she feels sick to her stomach over it.

She has pride in being a victim of what she has voluntarily read. Vox's words make her fearful and sick.

Don't teach women not to read that which makes them fearful and sick - teach men not to make women fearful and sick!!

Anonymous Maria Hatchback April 16, 2015 10:09 AM  

Connie Wills (never heard of her) will NOT be emceeing the event, NOT, NOT, NOT!!!

She is also "sick" about this.

Dramamine sales up! Doubleplusgood!

Blogger Brad Andrews April 16, 2015 10:13 AM  

SJWs are the ones that cling to superstition and tribal rituals that have always worked against other superstitious folk.

This is the exact thought I had reading this. They are the ones seeing natural forces (storms, lightning, etc.) and see demons and gods, not natural forces.

They see some of us being involved and call us evil for our views, which used to be core societal beliefs only 50 years ago. They wonder why we are starting to react....

Blogger Krul April 16, 2015 10:14 AM  

I mean, what would you do with all the newborn girls? Kill them? Sex is determined by sperm, so if a sperm with an X-chromosome gets through into the reproductive robot's artificial womb, then you'd have a girl.

I guess you could build the robots so that they automatically flushed out XX eggs, but what if one was broken? What if a guy modified a robot to allow female births? then a girl would be born into a world with not women, only men and robots. Now THAT could be an interesting story.

Unless all the reproduction were done by cloning, but then there would be no variation; every man born would be genetically identical to his father. Would there be a limit on clones? Would a rich guy have an army of clones of himself to dominate the next generation, while poor guys only got one or two? In only a few generations the human race would become stagnant; a world of identical clones.

Blogger Brad Andrews April 16, 2015 10:17 AM  

Don't teach women not to read that which makes them fearful and sick - teach men not to make women fearful and sick!!

I could think of some things that might fall in this area (intense descriptions of sexual or physical abuses, for example), but that is not what is present here or many of us would never read here.

Idiotic as I said before.

Anonymous t.c. April 16, 2015 10:18 AM  

So, I debated whether or not to even post here. I know doing so, I will be insulted, but I wanted to clarify my comment on Brad's page since I think it was misunderstood by many here.

So, I am the one who posted that comment, the very same t.c. Interestingly enough, Vox seems to be one of the few who actually understood my intentions. So, I give him props there.

First, I am not a member of the WorldCon tribe. I never have been, and don't plan on it either. While I am very much a part of fandom, I was very uneducated on the Hugos, rules, all that stuff. Coincidentally, last week was my Spring Break from my job and I spent much of that time doing extensive research because I was so intrigued by the whole event. Also, please note, that I wanted to form my opinions, not just spout the opinion of some author I particularly liked.

Also, please note the conclusion I came to - that I think, essentially, for the most part, your argument is correct. That there has been a lack of representation from all sides of fandom in the Hugos and that the awards should be more inclusive of your "side" and that more people should be involved in the nominating and voting process. In essence - I am agreeing with you!

I wanted to point that all out because a lot of the comments on here didn't seem to get that, and were a little mocking of me. Also, please note, I never actually insulted VD. I said I don't like or agree with his views, that they scare me (which is my right, even if you think it's silly), but I never insulted him as a person. And he never insulted me either. VD disagreed with my being fearful, but he then essentially understood the point I was trying to make, and I don't know why many of you aren't either. Read my whole post above to see the point that I was trying to make - that no matter how much I may disagree with him, I don't think he should be excluded.

So, VD, thank you for understanding the point I was trying to make. Feel free to respond if you want. For the others, I hope that clarified things a little better about me and where I'm coming from. Not part of WorldCon, not completely on the side of the SJWs (in fact, I think many of them, not all, are being very intolerant), and I think VD has the right to be included. Does that make sense?

One more revelation, here, and I'm a little apprehensive about this, but I want to quote VD above and see if it holds true for his fans here. VD said about the other side: "don't scream at us, don't insult us." I am asking for the same consideration to me personally here, because I think I have been polite, but, starting with VD, most of you assumed my gender incorrectly. I am a guy, sorry if my lack of... alpha-ness (new, made up phrase?) bothers people. I've never been very alpha, just not who I am. I am interested in real, legitimate back and forth, not insults. Thanks everyone!

Blogger IM2L844 April 16, 2015 10:20 AM  

1) the main puppy complaint seems to be they feel excluded from the awards because the stuff they like doesn't win.

You're never gonna get it!

Anonymous WinstonWebb April 16, 2015 10:24 AM  

t.c.,
You'll find on this particular blog that the tone of replies back to you will tend to mirror the tone you start with.

Anonymous Leader of the Dark Horde April 16, 2015 10:25 AM  

"Now, the heathen king is terrifying to the Worldcon tribe. He is a literal barbarian. He talks and walks and threatens like a barbarian. He’s not precisely the guy anyone planned on walking through the democratic door. ... The comparisons to training a wife like an animal, insulting the physical features of women he deems unattractive, he is a very mean, cruel person and I feel fear that those mindsets and hateful way of speaking still exists. He also seems to feel pride in his hateful words."

I don't get it. Isn't that just like all the cruel barbarian lords that SFWA girls swoon over? Me, I tried to gag my way through that GWWM TV show but there was too much graphic barbarian rape and butchery for me. But they LOVE it! They fantasize like crazy over it for whatever Freudian psychosexual reasons. They all want their own Dark Lord, their alpha male, deep down inside or they wouldn't read or watch that crap, slaughter, gang rapes and all. SFWA girls don't want "democracy" at the Worldcon anymore than they want it in their fantasy books and TV shows. SFWA girls moistly quiver in anticipation of power and domination and ruthless rule

I nominate Vox as a SCA-like Dark Lord to rule over their annual tribal gathering, Worldcon. Hell, we could even get him a throne and they could all kneel before him. That would get their hamster cages spinning like a gas turbine.

Anonymous Sun Xhu April 16, 2015 10:28 AM  

" I am interested in real, legitimate back and forth, not insults."

As WinstonWebb just stated, the tone and content of the comment determines the same in the response, here. As long as you actually hold to having a conversation/argument rather than an attack, you'll get the same in return.

You've made a good start.

Anonymous Stilicho April 16, 2015 10:32 AM  

Welcome, t.c. You won't be insulted for posting here. You will be called on to defend your posts. Your positions and opinions will be challenged. Vigorously. But you'll generally be addressed in the manner you address others. It's a bit rowdy at times. That's why most of us like it here. Our biggest knock-down, drag-out battles are amongst ourselves. Kudos for posting here, most of those with your opinions won't bother to read what is written here, much less respond (unless it's the occasional drive-by trolling). You've already demonstrated more courage and strength of character than any of the leaders of the anti-puppies crowd.

Anonymous Simple SJW April 16, 2015 10:32 AM  

Vox makes my eyes rain.

Anonymous Steve April 16, 2015 10:33 AM  

ChucklesDPirate highlighted
this example of abusing the Amazon ratings system to attack Castalia House authors.


It never ceases to amaze me how people plaster their information all over the internet. And I'm always curious to see what we're up against.

So it turns out the J. Carnall who took to Amazon UK yesterday to one-star three John C. Wright books, Riding The Red Horse, and The Stars Came Back, is Jane Carnall of Edinburgh.

And guess what? she writes homoerotic slash fiction. She's a big fan of rape and torture scenes, by her own admission.

Here's her Twitter. She likes cats.

Trigger warning.

Anonymous Old Man in a Villa April 16, 2015 10:34 AM  

You write like a woman. That isn't meant as an insult, it's an observation. You are focused on feelings, you never once address the logic or rationale of your visceral reactions, but rather how it makes you feel when you feel something, understand? No one can fix your feelings for you, that's your issue, we can however help to clarify points using the time honored traditions of logic and reason in order to determine if something is or is not practicable, utile, etc. That any given belief system enjoys widespread acceptance or enforces adherence through means of shunning or social ostracism is by no means proof of it's truth or righteousness.

You are encamped within the ranks of the SJW whether you admit to affiliation or not based upon what you have written. There is no screaming at you here- a little ribbing at your expense due to your comments about being "nauseous" over an opinion that isn't in line with your own, but when in hyperbole, do as the hyperboleans do.

It was very gracious of you to offer the Neanderthals their own little 'You're a Winner, Too" category, so very Plessey v Ferguson of you to make "the disenfranchised feel as if they have a voice..."

As if.

You should take a couple of Dramamine and set a spell, you just might get over the upset tummy and figure a few things out in an intellectual way rather than a visceral one. That'd be great.

Anonymous MrGreenMan April 16, 2015 10:34 AM  

t.c.

We're reactionaries, right? We respond to have we are treated and what is or is not thrown at us.

Anonymous Phineas Gult April 16, 2015 10:37 AM  

t.c. - I am interested in real, legitimate back and forth, not insults.

Buckle up. Put your big boy undies on and go for it.

Anonymous Viidad April 16, 2015 10:37 AM  

t.c.: "I know doing so, I will be insulted"

Don't be such a little...

Aw, I can't even do it. There's no reason to insult an honest poster.

Welcome to the outside of the Matrix. Many of us started posting here in vehement disagreement and ire... and then realized that beneath the boiling surface was the calm, cool waters of deep reason.

Blogger Chiva April 16, 2015 10:38 AM  

@ t.c.
I will echo Stilicho sentiments, you have shown more strength and character than many.

Anonymous Rivers of Blood April 16, 2015 10:38 AM  

The Internet is a level playing field. That doesn't suit those who have always gone unchallenged and unopposed. No wonder these perpetual children must seek to control everything - it's the only way they can win and eliminate competition of ideas and proofs of reality.
They've never been forced to be adults, to see the world as such, nor behave as such.
What you're seeing is the beginning of the conflict within themselves. They've never been balanced or objective or challenged in such a way. They've never been forced to be.
And yet the vast majority of their opposition has yet to even wake up and realize and admit they are in a true war and fight to the death over the future of their children.
We're waking them up. They are awakening. They will continue to awaken.
The unchallenged haven't seen anything yet.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan April 16, 2015 10:39 AM  

What would Ms Feelings think about the Holy Koran and the prophet's views? Would she feel comfortable if literally a billion human beings thought her at best an idiot?

Blogger Mr.MantraMan April 16, 2015 10:40 AM  

What would Ms Feelings think about the Holy Koran and the prophet's views? Would she feel comfortable if literally a billion human beings thought her at best an idiot?

Blogger JartStar April 16, 2015 10:40 AM  

t.c.

Thanks for you post. You've hit the nail on the head as in what Vox writes makes you feel fear, but don't want to exclude him, the SJWs feel fear or revulsion and want to exclude him on that basis. Big difference.

Welcome to the blog BTW, and stay a while. Nobody here agrees with everything Vox says, I know I don't and we've gotten into it at times but it's probably one of the best and most open conversation in the sci-fi world and blogs in general as he doesn't moderate posters unless they break the rules.

Anonymous Donn April 16, 2015 10:42 AM  

t.c. - Howdy, glad to see you have the courage to post here and read even though it upsets you.

I confess I found your fainting couch response to be silly and sad and still do. However, your willingness to engage in an thoughtful and polite manner gave me a little admiration for you. You will be welcome here and treated exactly as you will treat others for the most part.

The rabid puppies and sad puppies were never 'yelling' at the opposition in a vacuum they were snarling a warning because they had already been squealed at by the rabbits. The SJW are only getting what they've given, we're just more effective and frighten the bunnies. You know if Vox wasn't right and effective his writings probably wouldn't give you a visceral reaction.

Blogger Krul April 16, 2015 10:43 AM  

t.c., a couple of things.

1) I advise you to check out the "RULES OF THE BLOG" link at the top left.

2) You're a man? No shit? You absolutely had me fooled.

3) Welcome. Crack open a cold beer, kick your feet up, and enjoy.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus April 16, 2015 10:44 AM  

t.c.: "I am interested in real, legitimate back and forth, not insults."

OK. About what?

Anonymous Alexander April 16, 2015 10:45 AM  

Hey, you know, the redskins feel like they're not a part of this country.

Oh, I know! Maybe we could take one piece of it and set it aside for them. You know, reserved just for their little tribe. That way, they could feel included.

Good ol' SJWs.


t.c., welcome. I don't think you meant anything by it, but just say what you think. My opinion is X, here is why. Couching it in such terms as "I know you'll insult me..." is, in itself insulting.

And odds are pretty good you'll get smacked around at least once. Lord knows, I once tried to armchair general my way through a conversation with some poster named "Tom". My bullshit got returned to sender.

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian April 16, 2015 10:46 AM  

t.c.:

Be polite, and it will be reciprocated. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you and you will find most here to be welcoming and gracious.

Most people who read don't understand what is being stated by how it is being stated.

Ask questions and you will get answers and clarification.



Blogger Marissa April 16, 2015 10:47 AM  

Some kind internet fairy blocked Steve's link to a trigger-warned picture of homosexual fanfiction writer, many thanks.

Anonymous Porky April 16, 2015 10:48 AM  

"Vox, I have been a daily reader here for some time now...So tell me. Who are you? What is your "mission statement", both as it regards the Hugos and in general. What do you want, whom do you serve and why?"

I'm fairly certain that Charles Martel or Peter the Hermit were never asked this question.


Anonymous hygate April 16, 2015 10:50 AM  

@t.c.

Welcome to the Thunderdome. ;)

I didn't mean to be insulting, but seriously, you have never encountered ideas like Vox's before?

If you never converse with people who disagree with you then you need to expand your circle of acquaintances. If nothing else it will enable you to sharpen up your arguments.

Of course that is what you are doing right now, so thumbs up.

Anonymous Steve April 16, 2015 10:51 AM  

Marissa -
Damn those internet fairies!

Anonymous Bernays April 16, 2015 10:52 AM  

Nasty sentiments...hateful ways of speaking

Oh, the dripping psych projection from these orphans (for all practical purposes).

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus April 16, 2015 10:53 AM  

@t.c., I wouldn't place excessive faith in those blog rules, boasts of fair play and non-moderation and so on. You'll do better to be cautious.

Blogger Douglas Wardell April 16, 2015 10:54 AM  

@TC:

Out of curiosity, why do you think you'll be attacked? People usually respond here in the spirit in which they were approached. Sure, some people are coarse and there are some persistent trolls and curmudgeons, but compared to about any other blog or forum where real debate is happening, the tone here is remarkably civil. And I say this as a pro-gay-marriage, pro-choice atheist lol.

Anonymous t.c. April 16, 2015 10:55 AM  

Oops, lost my comment, so trying again. I am not a regular message board poster, obviously.

First off, thanks everyone for the replies, and from some of you I appreciate the welcome. I really am trying to not come at you like others have, yelling and insulting.

Leader of the Dark Horde - wanted to make sure you knew that your quote was an amalgamation of mine and someone else's - mine was the back half, the front half was somebody else. I never called him a heather or spoke of democracy. Thanks!

Old Man - I know I write that way. I can accept that. Maybe its being raised by a single mom and older sister, but, I don't take offense at all. My wife once joked and said to me, "I think you were meant to be born a British girl in another life." We both laughed for quite a while. So, I understand, I just wanted to point out that the pronoun was incorrect.

As for the SJW thing, Old Man, let help explain why I don't think I am as a part of the SJW crowd as you think I am: I find their hissy fit right now a little annoying. I agree with VD - rather than trying to find a way to "fix" this year's ballot, they just need to step up their game for next year. Increase membership and those who can nominate. Again, pretty much what VD said.

I also don't agree with their bullying tactics against anyone who disagrees with them or the fact that they have now pressured nominees to withdraw. That really upset me. They need to stop their hit-and-run tactics and actually talk about why this issue happened. Does that help clarify?

And, again, thanks everyone!

Anonymous Steve April 16, 2015 10:58 AM  

And I say this as a pro-gay-marriage, pro-choice atheist lol

SEIZE HIM!

Anonymous Porky April 16, 2015 11:02 AM  

the tone here is remarkably civil. And I say this as a pro-gay-marriage, pro-choice atheist lol.

I must agree with my faggot-loving, baby-killing, god-hating asshole friend.

Anonymous Geoff April 16, 2015 11:03 AM  

I typed in the stock symbol SJW just for fun. I don't know anything about the company other than it is a water utility, but the price chart actually looks interesting.

You could say this looks like a good SJW "entry" point.

Blogger Chris Ritchie April 16, 2015 11:04 AM  

Athor Pel: I hope the obververs of all this will take note of a key fact. This is at its core a spiritual battle. What Vox has been doing is devising weapons for unmasking and dealing with the guiding spirits of these deaf and blind puppets. These tools allow you to stop wasting time on those that are unreachable and to correctly identify those that have the highest chance to hear the truth.

Agree with you on this. After all, T.C. has posted now. That's a welcome addition to the conversation.

Anonymous WinstonWebb April 16, 2015 11:05 AM  

I agree with VD - rather than trying to find a way to "fix" this year's ballot, they just need to step up their game for next year. Increase membership and those who can nominate.

OK. Was there something else you'd like to add? It appears as though you've correctly identified the problem with the Hugo's and its past history of clique rule. So go forth and offer your proposed solution to those on the other side. We've (obviously) already implemented it.

Anonymous Stingray April 16, 2015 11:08 AM  

There is something else these people should consider. I don't know the numbers and maybe now they are relatively small. However, beyond Narnia, Lord of the Rings and Wheel of Time (which I never finished) I have read no Sci/Fi. This whole thing plus the quality of the authors and stories has made me pick up 4 Monster Hunter books (two really as one is the first three books) and I plan on reading a great deal of Mr. Wright's work soon (and buying some of his wife's books for my kids).

I doubt it will stop there. I also doubt that I am the only one in this position.

Not only are you bringing all of this to the attention of die hard fans who had all but given up on the genre, but you, Mr. Wright, Mr. Torgersen, and Mr Correia are creating new fans as well. This affect will only compound as time goes on.

Blogger Brad Andrews April 16, 2015 11:10 AM  

You won't be insulted for posting here.

I would clarify that just about anyone is insulted at times, though probably more so at Vox's companion Alpha Game Spot blog.

Others have correctly noted that the tone you use mostly determines the response you get.

It would be interesting to see exactly what printed thoughts here send you into the fits you note in the reply quoted in the OP. (Original Post in case you don't know the term.)

Also keep in mind that even regulars get their posts eaten. It is often due to the fact that Google seems to lose comments made before logging in. I try to copy my entire post to my buffer before hitting post to minimize the risk of this, but I don't always catch that.

Blogger Nate April 16, 2015 11:14 AM  

" I wouldn't place excessive faith in those blog rules, boasts of fair play and non-moderation and so on. You'll do better to be cautious."

If you would bother to actually read the rules you'd know that Vox is quite honest and open about the fact that here some are more equal than others. He has no problem playing favorites. Its his house. If there are certain friends and guests he likes more than others... who are you to complain that he is more forgiving toward them?

Blogger Nate April 16, 2015 11:17 AM  

Personally I can't wait for T.C. to meet BigGaySteve... one wonders what TC will think when he realizes a regular commenter at Vox's blog is a large out-spoken out-of-the-closet gay top... and the only thing we really give him shit over is his choice of firearm.

Blogger CM April 16, 2015 11:19 AM  

Wow, Krul - you really got into that, lol.

Too bad I'm no writer... and especially not a sci-fi writer. It would be like Stepford Wives on steroids.

To the chromosome issue... i wonder how it would work with the robots having y chromos? There's some new research on creating egg and sperm cells from skin cells. But what would a 'yy' look like?

Anonymous Stilicho April 16, 2015 11:21 AM  

I would clarify that just about anyone is insulted at times

But not for the act of posting here... savvy?

Anonymous Porky April 16, 2015 11:27 AM  

Athor Pel: I hope the obververs of all this will take note of a key fact. This is at its core a spiritual battle. What Vox has been doing is devising weapons for unmasking and dealing with the guiding spirits of these deaf and blind puppets. These tools allow you to stop wasting time on those that are unreachable and to correctly identify those that have the highest chance to hear the truth.

No, he's trying to revive the putrid corpse of Western Civilization. I've never heard him preach about "reaching people" or evangelizing. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Blogger Brad Andrews April 16, 2015 11:28 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Brad Andrews April 16, 2015 11:28 AM  

An insult is an insult Stilicho.

I just wanted to note that this place is rough and tumble, something that can be lost in all the nice talk to t.c.'s post.

Blogger Joshua Dyal April 16, 2015 11:30 AM  

Does that make sense?

It already made sense. Your post doesn't read like your trying to explain anything so much as make excuses for all of things that were generally being laughed at a bit; i.e., the feeling nauseous, etc. You didn't say anything that didn't make sense to begin with.

That said, well, hey. Nice you have you in the conversation.

One more revelation, here, and I'm a little apprehensive about this, but I want to quote VD above and see if it holds true for his fans here.

I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding here. I read the dictum not to insult "us" not as a plea not to do so, but rather a warning that if you do, you'll not only harden your opposition and invite just retribution and defense that you are not used to encountering, as well as revealing yourself to the unaligned as a hypocrite, who's arguments and assumed moral authority are hollow.

It's better to learn to deal with insults than to beg them not to come. I've certainly been insulted plenty of times, and although I read and comment here fairly frequently, I don't consider myself a "regular" or anything. It hasn't scared me away. Sometimes the insults have even been warranted. When they weren't, oh well--why should I care what some random username on the internet thinks or says about me anyway?

One of the many symptoms of how we've fallen as a civilization is how "we've" decided that it's clever to invert the "sticks and stones" admonition, and claim that words actually hurt us more than sticks and stones do. That's absurd. Insults only hurt us precisely as much as we allow them to hurt us. In my case, that's very little.

Blogger Matt April 16, 2015 11:30 AM  

Arent they the foreign tribe?

Anonymous Stilicho April 16, 2015 11:33 AM  

An insult is an insult Stilicho.

So what? You quoted me. Partially. The rowdiness warning was included in my comment. My point remains correct: he won't be insulted for posting here. He may very well be insulted based upon the content of what he posts here.

Blogger Vox April 16, 2015 11:34 AM  

I cant say I really have a sense of who you are beyond a sharp mind, sharper tongue, and a complete lack of fucks to give. So tell me. Who are you? What is your "mission statement", both as it regards the Hugos and in general. What do you want, whom do you serve and why?

I'm just a game designer who likes to write and think about things. And I am aware that I think about things differently than most people do. My mission statement is to see, recognize, and understand the truth. I don't care about the Hugos. I want to live in peace, freedom, and happiness with my family. I serve Jesus Christ of Nazareth because he is the Living Word and at the core of the truth I am seeking.

Most people will turn away from the truth if they find it uncomfortable. I will not. And that is one reason why I am particularly hated by habitual liars. I know them and they know me.

Blogger Brad Andrews April 16, 2015 11:39 AM  

Stilicho,

You seem to be getting insulted by something that merely used something you said to indicate it is a rough place here. I was not addressing your comment, just stealing your words.

I guess it proves my point though!

OpenID luagha April 16, 2015 11:42 AM  

I found, "It makes me sick yet I couldn't stop reading," to be a particularly beautiful, crisp expression.

What you are feeling is your mind's response to truth. You can't look away because the explanations you now see fit so much better with your experiences all your life. Your mind and your body are connected and that's why your body is reacting to the conflict, just like a good joke can knock the wind out of you and make you laugh until your gut hurts.

It's similar to a Herxheimer reaction in medicine. When you have a disease caused by toxins being crapped out by bacteria, taking antibiotics may make you suddenly feel much worse. Why? Because some of the bacteria exploded and died, releasing all their toxins at once. It hurts, but it's gotta happen if you want to flush the poisons and disease out of your system. You have to get through it and keep taking the antibiotics steadily if you want to conquer the disease, and the Herxheimer reaction gets less and less with each infusion of truth.


Blogger Salt April 16, 2015 11:42 AM  

t.c, one piece of advice. If you own a Glock... keep it to yourself. Otherwise, welcome.

Blogger Nate April 16, 2015 11:43 AM  

This is my attitude on the hugo awards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fvfsT3LNNM

Blogger Krul April 16, 2015 11:46 AM  

CM - Wow, Krul - you really got into that, lol.

Yeah, it just struck me as a particularly horrifying scenario with lots of dramatic potential. Could you imagine being the only girl in a world full of men and robots? How would you relate to people, and they to you? Could you imagine being the father or brother of the only real girl in the world?

But what would a 'yy' look like?

If I remember my high school biology correctly (a big "if"), 'YY' would not be possible. I believe every human cell needs at least one X chromosome because the X contains information for vital functions that the Y doesn't contain. I do know that the Y chromosome is much smaller than the X, so the X must contain a great deal more information than the Y. I'm really not sure, though.

Anonymous Stilicho April 16, 2015 11:47 AM  

You seem to be getting insulted

Nope. Just wanted to make sure the newbie understands how it works around here by clarifying what I meant by the quoted statement.

Anonymous dw April 16, 2015 11:51 AM  

The Hugo War has made it to Lew Rockwell.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/04/allan-davis/leftists-attack-libertarian-sci-fi/

Blogger Joshua Dyal April 16, 2015 11:56 AM  

I found, "It makes me sick yet I couldn't stop reading," to be a particularly beautiful, crisp expression.

What you are feeling is your mind's response to truth. You can't look away because the explanations you now see fit so much better with your experiences all your life. Your mind and your body are connected and that's why your body is reacting to the conflict, just like a good joke can knock the wind out of you and make you laugh until your gut hurts.


Interesting, as I was "red pilled" I had a totally different reaction. I guess the blue pill reality that we're indoctrinated with as children never really convinced me much. Rather than focus on the conflict, though--I just set it aside and went about living life and whatnot. The red pill pathways were already prepped, if you will. Rather than an uncomfortable reaction to it, it felt familiar, and "oh, now everything makes much more sense."

Anonymous Scintan April 16, 2015 12:00 PM  

From Connie Willis:

“You may have been able to cheat your way onto the ballot. (And don’t talk to me about how this isn’t against the rules–doing anything except nominating the works you personally liked best is cheating in my book.)

Could someone please direct me to all her refusals to present the awards since other people began publicly listing works for nomination, a la Scalzi? I'm sure they exist because, if they don't, she'd just be a lying sack of shit.

Anonymous Scintan April 16, 2015 12:01 PM  

Oops, lost my comment, so trying again. I am not a regular message board poster, obviously.

First off, thanks everyone for the replies, and from some of you I appreciate the welcome. I really am trying to not come at you like others have, yelling and insulting.


Apologies for some of the boorish treatment you've received, but people here have their dander up now.

Blogger slarrow April 16, 2015 12:01 PM  

Vox, if you'll permit, you've always struck me as a conservative: specifically, a Western Civilization conservative (not any particular flavor of American political conservative.) In that vein, the Hugos are but a small battle in the war to conserve that civilization, but it's a battle where there's a chance of reversing the decay and demonstrating how it can be opposed on other fronts. And for this, you are The Devil.

It calls to mind the prophets of old. They were always crying in the wilderness, in part because God often chooses the outcast to carry His power, but also in part because the people they were trying to save cast them out. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!"

Blogger Iowahine April 16, 2015 12:05 PM  

marsascendant: ... I am truly interested in how you see, and more importantly define yourself, and genuinely curious as to what you are working towards.

Reminds me of the time I asked the professor leading a course on Beyond Good and Evil, "Can you summarize these essays, please?" My fellow students' laughter turned to embarrassed throat clearing as my professor held my eyes and - probably noting my reddened face - kindly replied, "I don't think I'm prepared to do that."

I also recall 1 Peter 3:15. Thank you, Vox

Anonymous t.c. April 16, 2015 12:13 PM  

Douglas,

Glad to know I'm not alone! Although, and this surprises a lot of people, but I actually am not pro-choice. Yes, I skew left politically and I am an atheist, but I still have problems with abortion. That tends to really shock people who have all atheists shoehorned together as being the same. Goes to show that even within "tribes", we can all be very different.

To answer your question, why I would assume I'd be insulted, that came from a lot of the original comments after VD's post, before I ever commented, with a lot of the references to being gamma, "tarded", an emotional little girl, and a few others. But, I felt so strongly about what I had posted on Brad's wall, that I needed to join the conversation here. You can't imagine my shock and surprise this morning seeing that VD had lifted my comment, out of hundreds on Brad's page, to use in a post!

That being said, pretty much everyone here has been civil, as others said they would be. I have honestly enjoyed the conversation.

To respond to a few other posts, believe it or not, I have actually asked people on SJW sites or author sites to tone down the rhetoric, take a deep breath, stop trying to fix the "cheat" of this year's Hugos, and just work on getting more people nominating for next year. Those of us doing that might be few and far between, but we are there. I promise. Just like I don't believe everyone on the right is the same, neither do I believe everyone on the left is either. There have been a few calls for honest discussion about the grievances.

luagha, your comment -"What you are feeling is your mind's response to truth. You can't look away because the explanations you now see fit so much better with your experiences all your life. Your mind and your body are connected and that's why your body is reacting to the conflict, just like a good joke can knock the wind out of you and make you laugh until your gut hurts."

I will have to agree to disagree. That's not what is happening at all. As much as I agree with the puppy complaints at times about the Hugos, I am not being opened up to the "truth" about VD's feelings about a lot of societal or political issues. Sorry to disappoint. :)

Anonymous clk April 16, 2015 12:14 PM  

Gaming the Game.

Gaming has been going on way before video games and the latest adventures of VD and his dread ilk...

A human shaped stone cairn... sometimes called an "inunnguaq" and/or "inuluk" in north american native culture... its an "A" shaped pile of stones with arms out - sometimes with a stick at the end upright so that the whole pile looks like a hunter standing with a spear.

One of the uses of these was during a hunt, the hunters would place these along a game route and the animals would see these human shapes and misinterpret them as real hunters -- and would divert away. Using this "gaming trick" a small number of hunters could direct and corral a much larger herd of game to an area that was benefitual to them to slaughter.

The stategy here is not unlike this ... a small number of gamers seeking to create the image of much larger army, tricking the game into going to a location they chose... All the animals had to do was turn and run towards the hunters and almost all would have lived.. but that rarely happens.

OpenID luagha April 16, 2015 12:19 PM  

t.c.: Give it time. :)

OpenID luagha April 16, 2015 12:22 PM  

Oh, and it's about truth, as stated above. Not 'truth about VD's feelings.'

Blogger Danby April 16, 2015 12:28 PM  

If we are going to start assigning saints to various personalities here, Vox would be Anthony of Padua, "The Hammer of Heretics".
JC Wright would be Alphonse Liguori.

@t. c.
We just find it interesting that you state a physical reaction of nausea to reading ideas you disagree with. Another blogger, Anonymous Conservative has a well-developed theory as to why that happens (amygdala triggering).
That you experience this reaction and yet have the cojones to not only come here and read more of the ideas that trigger the reaction, but to actually engage in the conversations speaks well of your intellectual integrity and even courage, I think.
If AC is right, you will find that the reaction lessens as you confront unfamiliar ideas. At some point it will go away entirely.
I've never experienced this, so I couldn't say, myself.

Anonymous ZT April 16, 2015 12:29 PM  

To add further to this note, I believer there are probably more like me who have not bothered with the hugo issue. Frankly I don't get the need for awards be it for movies or books or most any other art. It's a subjective field where tastes change as years go by and there is no objective measure of success like that you see in sports or competitions.

As good as some of the SP and RP authors are and their books I see no value in the award, at least not enough to pay money to vote.

However, I would be more than willing to drop $40+ to see a bunch of ivory tower, high an mighty, wind bags, see their awards burned by there own rules.

In short, "Vox's group" has not fully mobilized. All you need do is give us a reason to get out our magnifying glasses and watch ants burn.

Anonymous Steve April 16, 2015 12:36 PM  

Scintan - Connie Willis is nearly 70.

And she's an awful, awful writer.

I read her Hugo-award-winning "Doomsday Book". It made time travel boring. I rarely don't finish a book I've paid for, usually I cling on, grimly determined to wring the last drop of entertainment out of my purchase. But I stopped somewhere in the last chapter because I read for pleasure, and I was deriving no pleasure whatsoever from her dreary, tedious tale of an Oxford academic watching medieval people die of the plague while her colleagues back in the present day bickered and caught the flu.

I realised that I didn't give a shit about the characters or how the book ends, so I stopped a few pages short. And I finished "Redshirts". Say what you will about John Scalzi, he may be a midlist hack, but he's a competent writer of light fiction and miles more entertaining than old Connie.

So when I read her Hugo freak-out, I had an unpleasant mental image of a geriatric boomer spitting out her false teeth and spattering fixodent-flavoured saliva all over her monitor as her wrinkly, claw-like fingers furiously scrabbled at her keyboard. A blur of liver spots and shingles and a leathery wattle, flapping indignantly.

*shudder*

Blogger Brad Andrews April 16, 2015 12:39 PM  

t.c.,

The problem is that "agreeing to disagree" is no longer an option now that SJWs feel they have the control.

What used to be "keep your nose out of my bedroom" has become "I will shove my bedroom in your nose all I want" in the eyes of many and that is creating a huge pushback. They are only tolerant to those who agree, though they will turn on their own when prompted as has been noted here and elsewhere.

They create the hostile atmosphere and wonder why some respond poorly. Though I doubt they really wonder that. They are just offended that anyone would disagree. Kind of like the traditionalists they claim to oppose.

They have their own traditions and will shove those down your throat. That is why I am at odds with libertarians who want to allow many of the causes SJWs celebrate. It gets shoved back down our throats and I am tired of that.

Blogger Brad Andrews April 16, 2015 12:40 PM  

What is with these double posts? I only hit post once....

Blogger Marissa April 16, 2015 12:41 PM  

So when I read her Hugo freak-out, I had an unpleasant mental image of a geriatric boomer spitting out her false teeth and spattering fixodent-flavoured saliva all over her monitor as her wrinkly, claw-like fingers furiously scrabbled at her keyboard. A blur of liver spots and shingles and a leathery wattle, flapping indignantly.

Come on, man, it's nearly lunchtime here.

Anonymous BigGaySteve April 16, 2015 12:42 PM  

"Nothing about VD comes off as Christian."

Methinks she wants Vox to flip over a table and chase her around with a whip.

"Vox, I have been a daily reader here for some time now...So tell me. Who are you? What is your "mission statement", both as it regards the Hugos and in general. What do you want, whom do you serve and why?"

And if it wouldn't be too much trouble could you tell us what your weaknesses are. If we put gay wedding cakes at the entrances of the conference center will it repel you?. Also please accept this invitation to the DNC to snort free cocaine off of 14yo boys erect penises, don't worry there wont be any cameras around. wink wink.

Anonymous Scintan April 16, 2015 12:46 PM  

Scintan - Connie Willis is nearly 70.

And she's an awful, awful writer.


I've read Connie's work. I just don't consider it important to the issue at hand, which is her rank hypocrisy.

Blogger Rabbi B April 16, 2015 12:46 PM  

"They were always crying in the wilderness, in part because God often chooses the outcast to carry His power . . "

We are assured that a tenacious adherence to the truth will by definition make one an outcast (you will be hated for My Name's sake) . . . most especially adherence to the Truth . . . men love the darkness and willfully suppress the truth for fear of being exposed to the light and having their secrets shouted from the rooftops. Just the mere presence of men with a fierce commitment to the truth and who are walking in the light as He is in the light is enough to cause them to either run for cover or transform them.

We live in perilous times where the love of most will grow cold for a failure and a refusal to hold fast to the truth:

They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason G-d sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness (cf. II Thessalonians 2).

"My mission statement is to see, recognize, and understand the truth."

I would add, "and unapologetically disseminate." What other mission is there?

Anonymous Giuseppe April 16, 2015 12:47 PM  

it terrifies me. It made me feel sick yet I couldn’t stop reading.

I laughed spontaneously when I read that.
And got a little adrenaline surge. A tiny bit like just before a charge in a fight.
Thanks for organising this party Vox.

Anonymous Emperor of Icecream April 16, 2015 12:52 PM  

Wills isn't that bad. I lost interest in the last book of hers I picked up too, but for people who like that sort of thing, power to them.

Blogger CM April 16, 2015 12:52 PM  

I've felt physically sick being presented with foreign ideas i found repellant...

Does not mean i was having a visceral reaction to the truth that doesn't align with my ideas. I'd go with AC's theory.

Nothing like anti-life advocates to make me want to scrub with bleach all over.

Anonymous Alexander April 16, 2015 12:53 PM  

There we go.

And goldmine of GRRM

My friend Janice Gelb, long time worldcon volunteer and SMOF, has suggested that the only thing we can do at this point is abolish the Hugo Awards altogether. When I first heard that notion, I dismissed it out of hand. Some good will, some civility, a mutual exchange of ideas, and surely we could find a way to salvage the situation.

I am no longer convinced of that. The Sad Puppies are digging in and doubling down, and so is worldcon fandom. Meanwhile, off in the cesspools, the Rabid Puppies grow ever more rabid. Nuclear options are being seriously considered, and Vox Day has apparently threatened that if NO AWARD wins in any category, he will see to it that no award is ever given in that category again.


So 1. Worldcon volunteer promoting the idea that if Puppies get it, nobody gonna get it. That's nice. We were clearly wrong to think that there was exclusion going on here.

2. Still arguing that Sad Puppies are a separate entity from Worldcon fandom, eh? Sorry, that's not how the 'take my $40' principle operates. But again, it illustrates nicely the assumed exclusion of the wrongfans.

3. For shame, where went the tone. Cesspools.

4. Wow, what a shocker. You consider nuking someone, and then throw a bitchfit when they point out they too have nuclear options.

And then this:
Could it be that Vox Day has successfully roused the GamerGate bogeyman that he was been threatening us with? No one knows. Unless...

Yes, you dimwitted fuck, we do know. Because if Gamergate was involved, there would be magnitudes more voters. Cripes.

Anonymous Sheila April 16, 2015 12:57 PM  

I don't read a huge amount of science fiction, and am not particularly influenced by what book has won what award. What I find continually surprising is how many people, whose works I've actually enjoyed to one degree or another, are demonstrating themselves to be dedicated SJWs. Connie Willis - writer of "The Doomsday Book" - which I immensely enjoyed. I wouldn't call myself a "fan," and she did begin her book with a rather dystopian, multicultural former England, but I was fascinated by her take on the 14th century. Oh well, someone else whose future works I will not pay a a penny for.

Anonymous BigGaySteve April 16, 2015 1:00 PM  

"And I say this as a pro-gay-marriage, pro-choice atheist lol"

So as long as people chose to have abortions and get gay married you are ok with it? Would you be ok if I chose to have less of my gay tax dollars support 3rd world moslem savages like the Boston Marathon brothers who came as refugees and leeched off welfare? Why do you want me to be forced to pay gay alimony?

"What is with these double posts? I only hit post once...." We hit twice as hard remember


"You're a man? No shit? You absolutely had me fooled.3) Welcome. Crack open a cold beer, kick your feet up, and enjoy."

That's kind of mean, his woman probably doesn't let him do #3. T.C. tell her that even BGS is man enough to do #3, well except the beer part maybe you can talk her into allowing wine, mead, & spirits.

Anonymous t.c. April 16, 2015 1:03 PM  

"That's kind of mean, his woman probably doesn't let him do #3. T.C. tell her that even BGS is man enough to do #3, well except the beer part maybe you can talk her into allowing wine, mead, & spirits."

Haha, funny you should say that. My wife is a bartender and beer is just one of our shared hobbies.

Anonymous Steve April 16, 2015 1:04 PM  

Marissa - I live to give.

Emperor of Icecream - There are plenty of leisure pursuits I find dull, but which I can understand the appeal of to others.

Golf.
Model train sets.
Building a scale model of the Bismarck out of your own toenail clippings.

Reading books by Connie Willis is not one of them.

It takes a special talent to use the concept of time travel - time travel, for Marty McFly's sake - and make it seem less fun than a wet Sunday afternoon at a hospice.

Connie Willis should never have won a rocket ship. They should've given her a special award made out of ennui and cat dander.

Blogger Douglas Wardell April 16, 2015 1:04 PM  

@Porky: You think of me as a friend? That's sweet.


t.c. April 16, 2015 12:13 PM
Douglas,

Glad to know I'm not alone! Although, and this surprises a lot of people, but I actually am not pro-choice. Yes, I skew left politically and I am an atheist, but I still have problems with abortion. That tends to really shock people who have all atheists shoehorned together as being the same. Goes to show that even within "tribes", we can all be very different.

To answer your question, why I would assume I'd be insulted, that came from a lot of the original comments after VD's post, before I ever commented, with a lot of the references to being gamma, "tarded", an emotional little girl, and a few others. But, I felt so strongly about what I had posted on Brad's wall, that I needed to join the conversation here. You can't imagine my shock and surprise this morning seeing that VD had lifted my comment, out of hundreds on Brad's page, to use in a post!


I personally find there's a lot more litmus-testing on the left. I'm a libertarian,and while I'm generally accepted by conservatives here and elsewhere, I'm usually reviled by progressives despite sharing opinions with each side.

I get what you mean about insults, but it's different when you are actually commenting here versus when your comment is lifted without attribution for discussion. In the latter case, it's alien to most of us that you'd feel fear or nausea just reading opinions that disagree with yours or even harsh rhetoric directed at groups to which you don't belong, so most people are trying to explain it, not poking at you for spite.

Blogger Corvinus April 16, 2015 1:06 PM  

I have spent a lot of time on his blog and, to be frank, it terrifies me. It made me feel sick yet I couldn’t stop reading.

Heh. I think she has a crush on you, Vox.

Anonymous Trimegistus April 16, 2015 1:09 PM  

I will admit that from time to time I have wondered if VD, PNH, and the Sasquan Committee didn't cook all this up in advance in some dimly-lit pub in London. Have the Hugos ever gotten so much media attention? How long has it been since a Worldcon drew this many memberships? And how much of a sales spike has Castalia House seen?

We should have a "controversy" like this every year!

Anonymous BigGaySteve April 16, 2015 1:19 PM  

Its important to understand what kind of comments get deleted from Grrms blog because those are the thoughts that hurt the most.

In response to noah b talking about how he would be ok with raising the price to $180 I said:
"They are not even capable of using logic to tell if a gay conservative/libertarian or someone who votes for more free stuff to be paid for by productive citizens would be more affected by the increase in price. Their side is giving "scholarships" when the price is around 4 packs of cigs & you get stories as part of it. Seriously even Marian Barry's tranny prostitutes can afford 4 packs of cigs."
See they want to raise the price to discriminate against tranny crack hoes. Of course they might be xxxcist and claim Tranny crack hoes don't/can't read sci fi.

Blogger Douglas Wardell April 16, 2015 1:21 PM  

BigGaySteve April 16, 2015 1:00 PM
"And I say this as a pro-gay-marriage, pro-choice atheist lol"

So as long as people chose to have abortions and get gay married you are ok with it? Would you be ok if I chose to have less of my gay tax dollars support 3rd world moslem savages like the Boston Marathon brothers who came as refugees and leeched off welfare? Why do you want me to be forced to pay gay alimony?


Sure. Sure. I kind of assumed you'd marry a rich guy and collect the alimony.

Blogger Douglas Wardell April 16, 2015 1:21 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Alexander April 16, 2015 1:24 PM  

Brad shows us exactly where the Sad and Rabid Puppies diverge.

He is against rules for radicals, we insist that if the radicals want those rules, then that's what they'll very much get.

Blogger jay c April 16, 2015 1:30 PM  

Connie Willis isn't a bad writer, just not remarkable. I actually enjoyed some things she wrote in the 90s, but most of her covers look like semi-romance. I usually assume that if the publishers aren't marketing to my demographic, it's probably not a book I'd care to read anyway, so I haven't bothered with any of it since.

Yes, I'm judging a book by its cover. No, I don't care.

Blogger Markku April 16, 2015 1:31 PM  

And how much of a sales spike has Castalia House seen?

I'm not sure I should say the exact number, this being a war and all, but big and sustained.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza April 16, 2015 1:36 PM  

Barbarians? No, again another misunderstanding on their part. No one here is or few here are emotional types, we are objective, watch the actions, listen, etc., and then judge accordingly finding countless situations to be highly questionable. The flame of smarter pens flair bright.

Like the Atreyu's song Blow and Disturbed's Enemy, the level of disgust is resonating at a all time high.

I want everyone to be happy, healthy, enjoy liberty, and wealthy. Where is that barbaric children of the corn?

Blogger Danby April 16, 2015 1:37 PM  

y'know, I'm cheap. I've probably paid more than $50 for a computer game at sometime in my life. Probably.
But there are literally thousands of gamers who think nothing at all of dropping that much several times a month in monthly subscription fees for games they play for a few hours. each month
There are millions who will pay that much one-off for a game that looks like fun.
This is more fun than any game I've bought in the last 5 years. I think FarCry was about equal. Rapid Puppies gives me a much better multi-player experience, but fewer head-shots. And no escort mission. I HATE escort missions.
DO YOU HEAR THAT GAME DESIGNERS? ESCORT MISSIONS SUCK!
So over all, I'd give this game 4.5 puppies.


Seriously, we need someone who's better at game reviews to review this game and post it to reaxxion.

Anonymous WhiteKnightLeo April 16, 2015 1:40 PM  

I find it interesting that Vox makes more sense to me the more I read the comments left here, including those that aren't by him.

I also find that thoughts I usually ignore come to the fore when I read what he says. Not about him, you understand, but about the topic at hand.

I just want to say I take offense at the notion that the barbarians who sacked Rome were, in fact, savages. They were no such thing. They were the Dread Ilk, led by Vox's ancestor. And the Romans were the SJWs of the day.

Anonymous jack April 16, 2015 1:41 PM  

I was at JCW blog and read a letter from the estimable Mr. DeLorence that explained why Scalci was given a pass and JCW not so much.
Two thoughts. Is it legal, in Worldcon, for one or two persons to set precedent without a rules change? I use legality here with due reference that Worldcon is a private entity not necessarily bound by black letter law.
And, if Worldcon wanted to remake their standards since Scalci's pass, would it not have been more creditable to have made the 'new' standards active from 2016 on? It would certainly have been less contentious and gentlemanly. Of course, maybe he/they were wanting to fan the flames of Puppydom some more.

Blogger Allan Davis April 16, 2015 1:44 PM  

dw - thanks for noticing.

Blogger JartStar April 16, 2015 1:48 PM  

I know I write that way. I can accept that. Maybe its being raised by a single mom and older sister, but,...

Nobody will old that against you. Now... if your firearm of choice is a 9mm then there's a problem. #DreadIlk

Blogger bob k. mando April 16, 2015 1:50 PM  

Sun Xhu April 16, 2015 10:28 AM
As long as you actually hold to having a conversation/argument rather than an attack, you'll get the same in return.


oh, come ON.

i don't get to crush him? when do i get to crush him?

we go NOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!


Marissa April 16, 2015 10:47 AM
Some kind internet fairy blocked Steve's link to a trigger-warned picture of homosexual fanfiction writer, many thanks.


now, now. i don't see any reason to go around calling 'no one of importance' a fairy.

Blogger Alexander April 16, 2015 1:53 PM  

What stands out at file770 and grim comments is that they literally cannot take our words at face value. The idea that one means what they say is totally alien to them.

SJW's always lie.But its still a sight to behold.

Anonymous Stingray April 16, 2015 2:01 PM  

would it not have been more creditable to have made the 'new' standards active from 2016 on?

I had the exact same thoughts as I read that letter this morning. If they had implemented this for next year's Hugo's I would be inclined to believe him. As it stands, I don't. It's just one more piece of straw.

Anonymous Joe Doakes April 16, 2015 2:10 PM  

t.c., welcome. Ready for a little "real back and forth"?

I assert that the Hugo award is intended to recognize the best SF/F published each year, regardless of who wrote it; therefore, basing the awards decision on an author's personal beliefs instead of the quality of the writing is an abuse of the power entrusted to the local Con.

Agree or disagree?

Blogger bob k. mando April 16, 2015 2:12 PM  

t.c. April 16, 2015 12:13 PM
I am not being opened up to the "truth" about VD's feelings



i know that you're really, truly, trying to grasp what's going on here.

but you're NEVER going to 'get it' until you learn to differentiate between 'feelings' and 'reason' and 'thinking'.

when Vox starts playing people's 'feelings', it's almost almost always because you have demonstrated either a complete lack of ability or refusal to even attempt to grapple with the facts and reasoning that he has laid out in front of you.

'point and shriek' is not any more acceptable from you than it is from them.

and until you learn to differentiate between 'feelings' and 'thinking', you're never going to get anywhere.

first couple times i slaughtered chickens, it made me a bit squeamish. that's 'feelings'.

it didn't stop me from helping with the slaughtering and butchering. it didn't stop me from hanging them up on the line to bleed out. it was necessary and it got done.

and after you do it for a while, you don't even think about it.

that's 'thinking' and 'reason'.

because it's NOT a fluffy and pastel world that we live in.




Sheila April 16, 2015 12:57 PM
Oh well, someone else whose future works I will not pay a a penny for.


you can buy all of her books you want. just get them from a used book store and she'll never get any compensation for it.

*wink wink, nudge nudge*



WhiteKnightLeo April 16, 2015 1:40 PM
I find it interesting that Vox makes more sense to me the more I read the comments left here, including those that aren't by him.



dude, no.

you're supposed to run away shrieking. and when you get back to the warren, you're supposed to point at us and yell, "Unclean, Unclean!"

for we are the ideological lepers of the age.

don't touch us, it may be catching.

Blogger Noah B April 16, 2015 2:15 PM  

"Nobody will old that against you. Now... if your firearm of choice is a 9mm then there's a problem."

The only problem is for the unlucky soul on the receiving end. With a Glock 9mm not only do you have greater magazine capacity than most pistols, but you can purchase affordable extended mags to lay down copious firepower, using some of the most readily available pistol ammunition on the planet. Glock 9mm FTW.

Blogger Markku April 16, 2015 2:24 PM  

Glock 9mm - you can always compensate with spray & pray!

Anonymous hygate April 16, 2015 2:28 PM  

So, Worldcon is considering eliminating the Hugos rather than let fans they don't approve of make their voices heard.

Yet somehow we are the bad people.

Blogger Noah B April 16, 2015 2:31 PM  

Spray & pray/Insha'Allah is a terrible idea to even suggest. No, with the Glock 9mm and a normal high capacity magazine, you can deliver precision fire against multiple attackers with the confidence to know that you have the right tool for the job. But if you're facing a threat of the most serious kind -- an unruly mob hellbent on destruction -- the extended mag can buy you the time you need to get to your rifle.

Blogger Noah B April 16, 2015 2:36 PM  

But a Glock does have one serious drawback: the thing is so danged reliable, you might start to get the idea that the thing never requires any maintenance or replacement parts of any kind. So do watch out for the sense of complacency that the sheer awesomeness of Glock tends to instill.

Anonymous t.c. April 16, 2015 2:36 PM  

Joe - I completely agree. I tried to make that clear in all of my posts. That's why I came here to post. Even though I don't agree with VD on a lot of issues, I don't think any works should be excluded. Again, tried to make the clear.

Bob - fine, let me rephrase it, even though that particular comment was meant to be a humorous response to somebody else. I am not being opened up to the "truth" of his... facts. Is that better? I know that it still comes off as wrong to you, I'm sure, but I don't know how else to phrase it. And again - let me be clear - I never came here to point fingers at VD and shriek as you put it. I came here to say that even though I disagree with him on virtually every issues, I don't think he, or any RP, or any SP, should be excluded whatsoever.

Anonymous Stilicho April 16, 2015 2:43 PM  

I came here to say that even though I disagree with him on virtually every issues

It is useful in these types of discussions to be specific and detail where you have a factual dispute and where you have a dispute over the conclusions to be drawn from facts (or axioms) that are agreed upon.

Blogger Noah B April 16, 2015 2:45 PM  

Is Worldcon the kind of convention where publishers would typically have some kind of booth or formal presence, and if so, is Castalia House going to have a presence there?

Anonymous Stilicho April 16, 2015 2:48 PM  

So do watch out for the sense of complacency that the magazine capacity of Glock tends to instill.

FIFY

Anonymous BigGaySteve April 16, 2015 2:49 PM  

I am surprised Noah isn't suggesting having 2 Governors as a car guns loaded with .410 under the seat so that he can get to the AK in the trunk. Once you kill the first of a mob they will look for easier targets like liberals that believe in equality.

Anonymous BigGaySteve April 16, 2015 2:50 PM  

.410 shotgun shells.

Blogger Joshua Dyal April 16, 2015 2:50 PM  

So, Worldcon is considering eliminating the Hugos rather than let fans they don't approve of make their voices heard.

Yet somehow we are the bad people.


Is there a link for this, or is this just "trufan" chatter?

It is useful in these types of discussions to be specific and detail where you have a factual dispute and where you have a dispute over the conclusions to be drawn from facts (or axioms) that are agreed upon.

Only if the purpose is to debate the merits of those stances. If it's just an off-hand comment, meant to contrast with his position on whether or not he should have a voice, then that would be beside the point.

Anonymous Alexander April 16, 2015 2:54 PM  

Eh, I don't see the need here. We're talking about the Hugo/Puppies here, not all the things that t.c. may or may not disagree with Vox on.

If t.c. sticks around, then no doubt we will have a time and place for him to make his disagreement known; for now it is enough to know that this ruckus is causing people who view themselves as our ideological opponents to give us an actual look instead of just regurgitating The Guardian.

What the dopes fail to realize is that there are many people who are sympathetic to at least some of what Vox says, but are underground. Liberal authors shrieking about Vox Day are much more likely to introduce segments of their readership to us, than drive people away.

PLEASE O PLEASE DONT THROW US IN THE BRIAR PATCH

Blogger Noah B April 16, 2015 2:59 PM  

That's not a bad plan either Steve.

Blogger Plump Pleasant Plumber April 16, 2015 3:01 PM  

Noah, you're really better off starting with your rifle. You use your pistol when things have collapsed around your position.

Factually, the Barbarians were more intelligent than the effete Romans. They took the offered gold, and then slaughtered the envoys. They never had ANY intention of compromise. The Human Genome cleanses itself from time to time. Barbarians always destroy that which came before.

Think of the perversions that surround us today. Tell me we aren't in the same situation as Ancient Rome. This moribund society will fall to someone. Islam? Not sure. But Islam has one thing going for it......Belief.

Blogger CM April 16, 2015 3:02 PM  

It is useful in these types of discussions to be specific and detail where you have a factual dispute and where you have a dispute over the conclusions to be drawn from facts (or axioms) that are agreed upon.

Its hard to do that on the spot while discussing something that is not related.

I'd be happy to have him stick around and read and next time vox posts something he disagrees with, hope he speaks up and makes his case.

Its not like subjects don't get repeated around here...

Blogger Noah B April 16, 2015 3:03 PM  

"Noah, you're really better off starting with your rifle."

No question about it. I'm talking about a scenario in which you're caught by surprise away from your rifle.

Anonymous BigGaySteve April 16, 2015 3:04 PM  

And then when Noah's AK run out of ammo from the trunk he drives home & gets out his mosin nagant with dozens of spam cans of ammo out and starts taking shots at 2000+ meters

Anonymous t.c. April 16, 2015 3:06 PM  

Thanks Josh and Alex,

I agree. I don't want to get into the particular points of debate in this thread. Perhaps, if I find myself sticking around, as some have suggested and even welcomed me to, I may in the more appropriate threads, but as this thread was about puppygate and whatnot, I was just trying to be the guy (I guess, the guy in the middle) who can say, "Look, I don't agree with VD's views, but in a society that values free speech, he has every right to be represented."

And, I do believe, that I have made that point very clearly. In terms of actual disagreements, there may come another time if I stick around, but here's a little about me, and that should clue you in where I stand on issues: born and raised evangelical, private Baptist high school, but I am now very much an atheist. However, I am not one of those American atheists that only harps on Christianity. In fact, if you knew me in real life, you would know the majority of my comments or posts deals with the threat of Islam. Aside from that, I'm married to a bartender who I met while we were both in college 12 years ago. We both knew we didn't want kids and that has never changed. Although I'm an atheist, I'm not really pro-choice. I am very much in favor of gay marriage, both before and after my stepbrother came out to my family. And... I'm about to throw out a word here... I do skew feminist, even though I feel, like all causes, extreme feminism is very harmful. In fact, I am much more of a feminist than my wife. :)

Outside of those issues, the only other things you might want to know about me are that we are animal lovers, 3 dogs, 2 cats, all rescues, and like many of you, I am proudly a nerd and fan. Comics, sci fi/fantasy, movies, you name it. And I enjoy interacting with fans of all types, and spectrums, and I am not turned off by reading something that I know or think the author is different than me. If anything, as many as you have pointed out, this Hugo controversy has added a lot to my "to read" pile.

I hope that helps explain me a little bit and many of you can now see where I might not agree with VD's views. I say all that because many of you have welcomed me to stay and talk. If I do stay, I will try my best to stay away from using words like feelings and emotions, as I have discovered those are very bad words here. :)

Also, I wish people would stop just reading VD's original post and not any of the comments, because a lot of people still haven't realized I am not of the pronoun "she". Damn feelings and emotions. :)

Thanks all.

Anonymous BigGaySteve April 16, 2015 3:07 PM  

"I'm talking about a scenario in which you're caught by surprise away from your rifle."

Make sure you lock the door if you have to use a gay neighbors shower.

Blogger Marissa April 16, 2015 3:10 PM  

Connie Willis should never have won a rocket ship.

She has won eleven Hugos and had 13 additional nominations. Considering these wins overlap significantly with the SFWA award, the Nebula, one can come to some conclusions about her work, though I admit I've never read a speck of it myself.

I was interested to read "To Say Nothing of the Dog" due to the title derived from the funniest book of all time's subtitle.

Anonymous kh123 April 16, 2015 3:11 PM  

After reading Brad's take, it brings to mind the bigger picture of what happens when enfranchising outside tribes is given lip service to, but without thought as to the possible consequences in cultural shift if ever taken seriously.

This will be very interesting indeed when the whole thing is laid out for those on the other side of the river.

Blogger Marissa April 16, 2015 3:13 PM  

Also, it warms my heart to read from Markku that Castalia House is seeing sustained purchases. I've read articles about how male readership is dying off in fiction, with many men either moving to non-fiction or giving up altogether. Just think, this could be the start of a renaissance in men going back to novels that don't feature bodice-ripping necrobestial love triangles.

That might just be the first thing that ever came from Finland to warm someone's heart.

Anonymous Alexander April 16, 2015 3:16 PM  

Well, I will say this.

t.c. recognizes that people have a specific pronoun, and he wants to be recognized by the correct one.

I fear he is in imminent danger of being declared an unperson by tumblr. I, for one, offer him a beer by way of compensation.

Anonymous pseudotsuga April 16, 2015 3:16 PM  

Steve: "It takes a special talent to use the concept of time travel - time travel, for Marty McFly's sake - and make it seem less fun than a wet Sunday afternoon at a hospice."
Yeah, I see your point--you want the story (of Doomsday Book) to be about TIME TRAVEL, but Willis clearly wasn't interested in the exploration of that idea. She wrote about Kivrin (the protagonist) and her "education" about the realities of Medieval life.
Now, I have some affection for much of Doomsday Book, but the story does indeed drag. The device of two stories in one (13th century England, and future England) makes it VERY long, Clearly Willis enjoys her characters and the situations they are in. I think her novel To Say Nothing Of the Dog works better, but her Blackout/All Clear dragggggggggeeeeddddd onnnnn andddd onnn....I kept looking at my watch, wondering if it would ever end.
I think that she is a strong writer (although an editor with a spine would help), IF one has a taste for what she writes. Is it Sci/fi? Just barely--enough so the Pink SF crowd loves it.
But I should stay on topic--Willis bowing out just to make a political point only strengthens my resolve to show that she is dead wrong--TO HER and others like her, the Hugo kerfuffle is political. TO ME, it wasn't actually political until they made it so. I spent my $40 in order to cast a wider net for good writing, since the current net only caught up SJW fish.

Anonymous BigGaySteve April 16, 2015 3:20 PM  

" In fact, I am much more of a feminist than my wife. :) ... lot of people still haven't realized I am not of the pronoun "she".

Noah do you have a 10' pole you can attach to your nagant's bayonet to touch that one?
Sadly my favorite sci fi skit is no longer available to be seen in the US but most of their other works are . https://www.billwhittle.com/singularity/mitchell-and-webb-monday-vectron If I went to one of the parties that had people put their preferred gender pronoun down I would use bivectron

Blogger Corvinus April 16, 2015 3:23 PM  

That might just be the first thing that ever came from Finland to warm someone's heart.

Never had Finlandia, I take it.

Blogger Noah B April 16, 2015 3:24 PM  

Nah, I wasn't going to give tc any shit. He has taken a big step just by coming here and talking to people without attacking them. But he should leave today knowing we're not the hateful haters we're often made out to be and that the Glock is unequivocally the finest pistol ever made.

Blogger Noah B April 16, 2015 3:25 PM  

"Never had Finlandia, I take it."

Or owned a Sako.

Blogger Marissa April 16, 2015 3:30 PM  

No to either, but I did have a Nokia in high school that had multi-colored lights which lit up when someone called or texted. Heartwarming, I guess

OpenID cailcorishev April 16, 2015 3:32 PM  

1) the main puppy complaint seems to be they feel excluded from the awards because the stuff they like doesn't win.

Remember the five words that are a perfect Gamma tell: "You seem to be saying..."

Blogger James Dixon April 16, 2015 3:32 PM  

> .410 shotgun shells.

Steve, please. At least use a 20 gauge. :)

Anonymous Alexander April 16, 2015 3:33 PM  

Finland warms the heart, everything from Sweden ends in tears.

Anonymous Viidad April 16, 2015 3:40 PM  

"the Glock is unequivocally the finest pistol ever made."

It's definitely my favorite. Got a 17 and a 19. Like them both. Never had a failure, plus I get great groupings.

I keep the 17 in a drawer beneath my Mac.

Blogger Zeke OF Confettii April 16, 2015 3:45 PM  

They should not be in trouble, but if they have "unexpected expenses" the supporting money could save their ass.

Anonymous Stilicho April 16, 2015 3:47 PM  

I keep the 17 in a drawer beneath my Mac.

now you're just trolling for the fun of it

Blogger bob k. mando April 16, 2015 3:49 PM  

t.c. April 16, 2015 2:36 PM
I am not being opened up to the "truth" of his... facts. Is that better


any argument is tripartite.
1 - facts or data
2 - premises
3 - logic

using these, you arrive at a conclusion. any, or all, of the steps may be disputed. if you're actually disputing 'facts' that he's citing ... you'll probably need to start doing some research.

there's idiots still running around saying that Neanderthals were stupider than their contemporary Homo saps and there are still idiots running around who don't understand that *some* races having an admixture of Neanderthal genes means that those races withOUT said admixture are MORE Homo sap sap / human than those who are partly 'thal.

cuz, you know, 100% is a larger percentage than 99%.



t.c. April 16, 2015 2:36 PM
I came here to say that even though I disagree with him on virtually every issues, I don't think he, or any RP, or any SP, should be excluded whatsoever.



*shrugs*

neither do i agree with him on everything.

i do appreciate you not just telling us to shut up though.



Joshua Dyal April 16, 2015 2:50 PM
Is there a link for this, or is this just "trufan" chatter?



germ has that as one of his most recent blog entries. he's not sure whether he wants to go along with it.

of course, germ is also the very definition of tru-Fen. he's a large part of the reason why Worldcon is what it is today.

can you imagine that? an openly avowed Socialist creating a society in which people are persecuted for their thoughts?

why, i've never seen such a thing before.



BigGaySteve April 16, 2015 3:07 PM
Make sure you lock the door if you have to use a gay neighbors shower.



errrr. wouldn't that lock me in the shower with the gay neighbor?

you're like, really making me uncomfortable here, man.

1 – 200 of 248 Newer› Newest»

Post a Comment

Rules of the blog
Please do not comment as "Anonymous". Comments by "Anonymous" will be spammed.

<< Home

Newer Posts Older Posts