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Saturday, April 25, 2015

Why Sun Tzu remains relevant today

Oh, dear. They just don't know us at all.
The long-term question about which way the Hugos will be going a few years down the road I think is easy to predict: Worldcon con-goers are patient. As I said over on File770.com, Worldcon fandom is already comfortable with building a new house every year, so Mr. Beale twirling his moustache and threatening to burn down the house is a small gain for megalomania but nothing that fandom cannot outlast, because we have the patience and endurance, and I doubt that a bunch of flighty MRAs (for example) have much at all, nor do the various Puppies have anything like the unity of purpose that is often asserted.
Perhaps someone needs to point these poor deluded creatures to The Debate That Shall Not Be Named. Or even the relatively innocuous Dissecting the Skeptics. It's rather sweet, really, that they think that we're simply going to go away after the exceedingly disrespectful way they have treated us.

Labels:

88 Comments:

Anonymous Steve April 25, 2015 10:08 AM  

She's just a little bit further along the Kubler-Ross cycle than David Gerrold is.

Anonymous fish April 25, 2015 10:21 AM  

He's proud to be a feminist,


How can you stand before that kind of resolve without wilting?

Blogger epobirs April 25, 2015 10:22 AM  

These folks just don't understand how tiny and insular the Worldcon community has been to date. The number of supporting memberships it took to make this happen was tiny. As recently observed, the Romance fans could easily own the voting completely and hand the major awards over to names that are more respected in Romance than F&SF. And if the gamers really took an interest they could find themselves giving a Best Novel rocketship to a Halo tie-in.

I propose a new award. You cast votes by buying an author's book and and are encouraged to stuff the ballot box by making as many purchases of that author's work as you like. There is no physical trophy given to the winners.Instead, the award manifests itself in the purchases of things like homes and cars, along with niceties like retirement savings and health care coverage.

Blogger Nate April 25, 2015 10:23 AM  

We debated a topic we basically agree on... and ended up with something akin to a novelette.

And they think we're going to just walk away from THIS?

Anonymous WinstonWebb April 25, 2015 10:28 AM  

...because we have the patience and endurance, and I doubt that a bunch of flighty MRAs (for example) have much at all...

Sun Tzu or Napoleon?
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."

Anonymous NorthernHamlet April 25, 2015 10:34 AM  

HEY DIDNT YOU HEAR ME? WE MAY HAVE A SHITTY SHORT-TERM FIGHT WHERE WE LOSE BIG BUT THAT'S BECAUSE WE HAVE A MORE AWESOME LONG-TERM PLAN OF...

Wait for it...

Hoping you don't beat us up again.

Vox, you're truly dealing with advanced military minds here.

Anonymous NateM April 25, 2015 10:35 AM  

The Debate That Shall Not Be Named

I'm glad we aren't dredging up Voldebate again

Blogger D. Lane April 25, 2015 10:36 AM  

I propose a new award. You cast votes by buying an author's book and and are encouraged to stuff the ballot box by making as many purchases of that author's work as you like.

Bankrupting the opposing army and turning them against their leaders in the process. I like it.

Worldcon fandom is already comfortable with building a new house every year, so Mr. Beale twirling his moustache and threatening to burn down the house is a small gain for megalomania but nothing that fandom cannot outlast, because we have the patience and endurance, and I doubt that a bunch of flighty MRAs (for example) have much at all, nor do the various Puppies have anything like the unity of purpose that is often asserted.

Clearly diversionary rhetoric. Only an adversary planning a massive surprise attack would attempt to posture with such a foolish strategy.

Blogger Jay Lucas April 25, 2015 10:36 AM  

The troll that starts with a Y is right in top of the comments. Eyeroll.

I'm confused as to why the Deirdre person thinks linking this (below) remark makes her look good. Suppose I'm going to have to review the gamma/rabbit issue.
http://deirdre.net/the-puppy-free-hugo-award-voters-guide/#comment-19034

Anonymous Stilicho April 25, 2015 10:42 AM  

We might get bored and wander away... if they weren't providing so much entertainment. Nor can they stop being amusingly shrill and idiotic; they were born that way.

Blogger D. Lane April 25, 2015 10:45 AM  

Nor can they stop being amusingly shrill and idiotic; they were born that way.

Would you consider this a birth defect?

Anonymous Brian April 25, 2015 10:49 AM  

"The Debate That Shall Not Be Named"

Tim Tebow?

Anonymous WinstonWebb April 25, 2015 10:53 AM  

^^^
Yes, and we can conclude that Chip Kelley LOST that debate.

Blogger Henry Smith April 25, 2015 10:55 AM  

"The Debate That Shall Not Be Named"

Obama's birth certificate?

Anonymous Zek April 25, 2015 10:56 AM  

Me So Horny! Me So Horny! Japanese supply lines, manufacturing deltas, Bring it On!

Anonymous Roundtine April 25, 2015 11:02 AM  

"The Debate That Shall Not Be Named"

It involves the words Glock and Calvinism. That's all I can tell you about it.

Anonymous Stilicho April 25, 2015 11:02 AM  

Would you consider this a birth defect?

Yes, but despite any genetic predilections for certain flavors of idiocy, rabbits ultimately choose to over-indulge in them. Besides, rabbits are useful for teaching cubs to hunt.

Anonymous WinstonWebb April 25, 2015 11:04 AM  

Me So Horny! Me So Horny! Japanese suppry rines...

FIX'D.

Anonymous Stilicho April 25, 2015 11:04 AM  

It involves the words Glock and Calvinism. That's all I can tell you about it.

You were meant to say that.

Anonymous Geoff April 25, 2015 11:07 AM  

This should really be under the thread about the feminization of the U.S. military but I thought it would be missed there by now. It is worth watching:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Jmh6qglDAc&index=5&list=PL8UZU1KMeVX8OC57WSO7DEiDGng8d1wu6

Blogger Chiva April 25, 2015 11:08 AM  

"Mr. Beale twirling his moustache and threatening to burn down the house"

I don't think VD is a Snidely Whiplash. He will not threaten to burn your house down, but educate you on how decrepit your house really is. Then twirl his mustachio as he watches you burn your own house down.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan April 25, 2015 11:11 AM  

They could consult Parker and Stone of South Park if they really need some good plans.

That's actually a trick on my part because I would expect those two to satirize the SJWS

Anonymous horsewithnonick April 25, 2015 11:14 AM  

The Hugos have already been irrevocably altered, even if the various flavors of Puppy are euthanized en masse - just a few good-sized local SF fan clubs who want their voices heard could dilute CHORF power to the point of irrelevance.

The number of SF fans beyond the influence of the WorldCon cliques who have just this year realized that they can and should have a voice in selecting the winners could dwarf all of Puppydom.

Blogger wrf3 April 25, 2015 11:18 AM  

Roundtine wrote: It involves the words Glock and Calvinism.

Not today, I have other ordained things to do. Like finishing reading the nominated works of Mr. Wright.

Anonymous Mookie April 25, 2015 11:30 AM  

Vox:

Interesting you mention Sun Tzu. As I mentioned in another comment thread, I am looking for books to cure myself of naive, Midwestern churchian "nice guy" beta-tendencies.

In other words, I am sick and tired of being a "Lawful Good" beta doormat in politics and daily struggle. I'd like to switch alignments to Evil, maybe Chaotic Evil but probably Neutral Evil.

Not just against online enemies, but against any SJWs in my personal life (those at my workplace and family members.)

Art of War is on my list of books to binge-read in the next 2-3 weeks. Generally looking for any books related to realpolitik, coldhearted ruthless strategy -- and crushing my enemies, seeing them driven before me, and hearing the lamentations of the rabbits.

Also my list:

The 48 Laws of Power by Robert Greene
The Prince by Machiavelli
Book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi
Winning Through Intimidation by Robert Ringer
Rules for Radicals by Saul Alinsky
The Art of Worldly Wisdom by Balthasar Gracian

Am I missing any? Any others you would suggest? Any I shouldn't bother with? Help me turn from churchian "nice guy" to a ruthless son-of-a-bitch...

FYI, my plea for help here is both for Vox and any Ilk willing to contribute. Thank you in advance.

Anonymous troll April 25, 2015 11:32 AM  

"The Debate That Shall Not Be Named"

You mean -- Catholic Attack???

(just kidding, retards)

Blogger Salt April 25, 2015 11:40 AM  

nothing that fandom cannot outlast

As pointed out here concerning #Gamergate, people are involved for many reasons. If these idiots think it's only about the Hugos, only about their little world, they're sadly mistaken.

It is both about and not about the Hugos to me, the Hugos being but one piller, one battlefield, of SJWism. GG is more than about ethics. It's about THEM, in all their manifitations - and we're coming for them.

Blogger MidKnight April 25, 2015 11:49 AM  

They really don't understand at all.

The "house" you are burning down is the one that always must stay with them - the moral structure justifying their existence - and that they cannot easily replace.

Actually, it's rotted, in need of shoring up, and their prevention of us coming in, inspecting it, commenting on it, and bringing in fresh lumber while they start playing with matches is what will really "burn it down"

---

on a related note, after seeing a new article by Deirdre on how this was all a slate vote because puppy promoted items swept the lists, I commented on G+:

They keep avoiding one thing though - the variance in votes among the puppy-favored items.

So yes, by one definition of slate, both of the puppy recommendations were inarguably a slate. They are, however, conflating this with "slate voting" - namely that you vote straight ticket.

The issue being that there are several ways that the results they see could have come about, and "straight ticket" votes obviously were not common by variance alone.

That leads to a scarier conclusion for those who care that every action in their life signals "right mind".

let's assume the most - nominated work on both puppy slates got a 100% voting rate from everyone who signed up to join up with the puppies.

Let's also assume that the entire increase in supporting memberships of the last two years was directly puppy-related (as opposed to "signed up because the uproar, and independent or even likely to oppose puppies) - whereas I'd estimate from the couple years before that that only 80% of the increase was puppies.

Far more puppies signed up than people voted for the most-nominated work. Both of the above CANNOT be true.

Even at a 80-70% rate, there could not have been uniform voting on the MOST nominated book, and certainly could not have been on nominated works getting half that.

nevertheless, we're in a position where - even assuming a 70% "new puppy" recruiting rate, plus some percentage of previous voters being sympathetic, "human wave" friendly readers are now 33-50% of the voting body. And they firmly enough reject the tastes of postmodernism, nihilism, and anti humanity, that stories enjoyed by those who wanted adventure and a positive outlook of humanity swept the day.

That requires far less conspiracy, and more importantly, matches the numbers better than "slate voting"

Blogger beerme April 25, 2015 11:51 AM  

They shouldn't get the silly idea that they can outlast anyone. Worldcon is old and insular, there are no friendly reinforcements coming to save the day.

Blogger MidKnight April 25, 2015 11:53 AM  

Also - Briana's got be a woo - woo.

Actually, more like a petty, unhinged tyrant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xjIWxj9uCI

Anonymous REG April 25, 2015 11:53 AM  

They have only one recourse, that is to withdraw the HUGO from the world. If it is only for Worldcon, then we don't care. It's that brag that it's the best in Science Fiction and Fantasy that's the rub.

Blogger Moor April 25, 2015 11:55 AM  

Sounds like Lawful Evil is your goal to me, Mookie.

I would recommend you add the gospels to your reading, and perhaps Paul's letter to the Galatian churches. If read without the lenses of your milquetoastian upbringing, I think you'll find them full of the kinds of examples you're looking for.

Anonymous Godfrey April 25, 2015 12:10 PM  

The Hugo Awards are a political purity award.

Blogger Corvinus April 25, 2015 12:19 PM  

Ha. I also made the "mistake" of reading that stuff.

Anonymous Nathan April 25, 2015 12:32 PM  

It's odd that the rhetoric has been that they can outwait us, given that the Young Pups are driving Sad/Rabid Puppies, and the anti's are typically older.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 25, 2015 12:35 PM  

A meta question crawls up from my subconscious: every image of an allegedly male (born with XY chromosomes) SJW that I've seen has been some variation on the old Pillsbury doughboy. We know that fat, especially abdominal and even more so visceral fat, tends to produce aromatase, which transforms testosterone to estradiol. On the other hand, plenty of Ilk, Puppy and other minions of the Evil Legion of Evil are known to lift weights, eat properly, etc. which is known to enhance testosterone.

SJW's appear to be a bunch of manboobed doughboys, while those they futilily attempt to shame are demonstrably more manly at the physiological level. Is the root of this conflict actually down in the bloodstream, in terms of circulating Testosterone? Do the SJW's tend to act like a bunch of teenaged girls because their hormones are similar?

A simple approximate way to test this would be to just poll SJW's and the various subgroups of the Evil Legions of Evil on their exercise habits, with an image attached to do a first order check. If SJW's turn out to be mostly couch marshmallows while even a bare majority of ilk, gamers, puppies, etc. have at least basic physical fitness under their belt -- that would be at least a weak confirmation.

Or as my great grandfather would have said, somewhat differently, "Blood will tell".

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 25, 2015 12:39 PM  

It's odd that the rhetoric has been that they can outwait us, given that the Young Pups are driving Sad/Rabid Puppies, and the anti's are typically older.


Some of these people have been "waiting for the Revo" since Nixon, you know. Since they are forever young, they figure they can out wait the Establisment. Leaving aside the fact that they are the Establishment (cough GeorgieRRRRMartin cough) of course.

Anonymous The other robot April 25, 2015 1:00 PM  

Someone opined a few threads back that Heinlein was the first SJW and someone else said not so. I happened to breading the free chapters from the Rolling Stones on the Baen site and came across this:

"No," she admitted, "but my reasons were different. I saw three big, hairy, male men promoted over my head and not one of them could do a partial integration without a pencil. Presently I figured out that the Atomic Energy Commission had a bias on the subject of women no matter what the civil service rules said. So I took a job dealing blackjack. Luna City didn't offer much choice in those days—and I had you to support."

I think it is pretty clear that Heinlein was an SJW, but maybe not the first.

Blogger Poor Guy April 25, 2015 1:07 PM  

Maybe the character you pulled the quote from was an SJW, it does not mean the author is.

Anonymous Supernaut April 25, 2015 1:17 PM  

In other words, I am sick and tired of being a "Lawful Good" beta doormat in politics and daily struggle. I'd like to switch alignments to Evil, maybe Chaotic Evil but probably Neutral Evil.

D&D alignment allegory...tits!

Remember that a Paladin, one of the more powerful characters, is Lawful Good. Lawful Good doesn't mean beta, spineless wimp. The wimps are the true Neutrals (squishy moderates and consensus worshippers), and the Neutral Goods (they pay lip service to Good, but are afraid to stand up for it).

The real problem is that the Chaotic Evils and their simps, the Neutral Evils, have subverted the law and use the guise of operating a Lawful Good regime with a truly Lawful Evil regime.

The Lawful Good citizenry try to adhere to their alignments, but by default are actually Lawful Evil, because the Chaotic Evils have made the Law evil...even though the Lawful Goods still think they are Lawful Good.

Hence, the Lawful Good Christian boy signs up for the military and ends up going to fiat wars on far away shores where he thinks he's fighting hordes of Chaotic Evils, when in fact most of them are just Lawful Good (for their own culture) or Neutral goat herders in the hinterlands.

Or the Lawful Good boy signs up for Law Enforcement and becomes Lawful Evil by reinforcing the burgeoning Police State.

So if our Government has been subverted by Chaotic Evils, turning Lawful Good into Lawful Evil, the answer is not to embrace Evil, but to embrace Chaotic Good, foment revolution and tell all the squishy, moderate Neutrals to pick a side or get out of the way, then destroy the Chaotic Evils and restore the supremacy of Lawful Good.

As it stands right now, the chances of success for such a gambit are not good.

Probably the equivalent to rolling 00 on 2D10.

Blogger njartist April 25, 2015 1:17 PM  

@Mookie April 25, 2015 11:30 AM
The 48 Laws of Power

Blogger Corvinus April 25, 2015 1:27 PM  

I've noticed something similar, although more as a bifurcation. The older generations seem to be mostly moderates, while Millennials seem to have a sharper division between gay-marriage-loving pot smoking SJWs and Evil neoreactionaries.

Blogger wrf3 April 25, 2015 1:28 PM  

The other robot wrote: I think it is pretty clear that Heinlein was an SJW, but maybe not the first.

How do you get that from that citation? The whole point was that the woman in the story was capable of doing the job but, because she was a woman, couldn't get one in her field.

Sad Puppies: "we don't care about identity, only about capability."
SJWS: "we don't care about capability, only identity."

Along this line, yesterday there was this post about Emily Noether:

Finally, in Spring 1915, 100 years ago, Hilbert and Klein invited her to Göttingen. It wasn't easy – women were not equal in Göttingen at that time yet. Humanity professors were asking: "What will our soldiers think when they return to the university and find that they are required to learn at the feet of a woman?" Hilbert [the mathematician] responded with indignation: "I do not see that the sex of the candidate is an argument against her admission as privatdozent. After all, we are a university, not a bath house."

This is what Heinlein is writing about. He's channeling Hilbert. And notice how the humanities are always on the wrong side of things: it was identity politics 100 years ago and it's identity politics now. Those of us who can actually do things, don't care who does them, as long as they are competently done.

Blogger Corvinus April 25, 2015 1:30 PM  

In this society, people who lack self-discipline (and demand acceptance, no matter how repulsive they've let themselves get) are bound to get fat.

Blogger Corvinus April 25, 2015 1:33 PM  

Chaotic/4GW Good works far better when Evil controls all the power structures.

Blogger Antonio From Spain April 25, 2015 1:34 PM  

Mookie,

I'd suggest "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Robert A. Glover.

Blogger Rantor April 25, 2015 1:34 PM  

I agree with Supernaut, Chaotic Good in support of Lawful Good is the way to go. We are only the Evil Legion of Evil to help SJWs continue to think they are the good ones, when really they are dishonest destroyers of society. It confounds them.

Hell they sound confounded when they dissect the SP/RP effort and what counts as a slate, and when is an SJW list of nominees a slate or non-slate? They are trying to split the hair to prove that Puupies are slatists and SJWs never were. Ya, got it...



,

Blogger Fatherless MRA April 25, 2015 1:44 PM  

Many MRA's are ex-feminists. There are no ex-MRA's who become feminists that I know of. As long as open debate survives, MRA's will turn the corner.

The SJW's have to end open debate before non-SJW's achieve the numbers to take back institutions. It's a battle between non-SJW's seeing SWJism as a broad totalitarian force across all cultural spheres and working in concert to thwart it, rather than only fighting in their isolated cultural spheres where they can be outnumbered and picked off one by one. Its that versus SJW's masking their strength, pretending to be weak and nonpolitical, and presenting their entryist, totalitarian philosophies as "best practices" and what any person of good will would want, while they slowly erase the traditions if open debate and questioning authority.

Vox, anybody, is that about right?


Blogger Fatherless MRA April 25, 2015 1:50 PM  

... I'll guess someone will quibble with my use of the words "in concert..." - and then I will be sent off to investigate 4GW....?

Anonymous Supernaut April 25, 2015 1:58 PM  

I agree with Supernaut, Chaotic Good in support of Lawful Good is the way to go. We are only the Evil Legion of Evil to help SJWs continue to think they are the good ones, when really they are dishonest destroyers of society. It confounds them.

We are the Evil Legion of Evil, because the Chaotic Evil's core moral principle is inversion - calling that which is good, evil, and that which is evil, good.

Therefore, to the Chaotic Evils masquerading as Lawful Good, the true Chaotic and Lawful Good people are Evil because we oppose their Lawful Evil.

Can you tell I used to be a DM?

Anonymous koan April 25, 2015 2:27 PM  

The Left wants the Right to shut up...
The Right wants the Left to keep talking.

Anonymous Trimegistus April 25, 2015 2:30 PM  

Wait, so they actually believe that the leftists who have thrown an ear-splitting tantrum just because someone refuses to share their idiotic beliefs are MORE patient than the conservatives who have endured how many decades of snide remarks, whispering campaigns, insults, and Two MInute Hates?

Brad Torgerson has put up with more screaming hate and vile insults in the past six weeks than any of these SJWs has encountered in her whole coddled life.

We can take it. We take it day in and day out. They can't.

These people do not live in the real universe. They are literally insane.

Blogger Zimri April 25, 2015 2:31 PM  

Moldbug proposed that Chaotic Good is a contradiction in terms, therefore cannot exist.

Anonymous Supernaut April 25, 2015 2:47 PM  

Moldbug also calls what is quite obviously the Synagogue of Satan, the "Cathedral."

Blogger IM2L844 April 25, 2015 2:51 PM  

Fatherless MRA, this is just my personal take on this, but I see it, at its core, as a relativist mindset, which is the fundament of Identitarianism encompassing both leftism and rightism, vs. an absolutist mindset, which is the fundament of an as yet undefined sort of Christian-Libertarian-Anarcho-Monarchism, issue. There is a lot of nuance, gray area and rabbit holes to fall into in between, but when boiling it down, it always comes back to the incoherent relativism of SJWs wanting to have their cake and eat it too. It simply doesn't make any internally consistent sense when you actually think it through. It's self-defeating. We could easily get rid of SJWs just by standing aside and letting them have everything they say they want. The problem with that is they would drag everybody under with them.

Anonymous tiredofitall April 25, 2015 3:04 PM  

"But when boiling it down, it always comes back to the incoherent relativism of SJWs wanting to have their cake and eat it too." - IM2L844


Judging by the pics I've seen of most SJWs they are entirely too focused on the eating of the cake part to worry about having it too.

Blogger automatthew April 25, 2015 3:35 PM  

"I think it is pretty clear that Heinlein was an SJW, but maybe not the first."

But read Heinlein's best novel, Double Star and see what you think then. The only female in the novel faints at least twice, gets serious 'gina tingles for the failed actor, and has a near nervous breakdown.

Anonymous SciFiGuy April 25, 2015 4:00 PM  

"But read Heinlein's best novel, Double Star and see what you think then. The only female in the novel faints at least twice, gets serious 'gina tingles for the failed actor, and has a near nervous breakdown."

To be fair, said female character was a secretary who was in love with her boss, who the actor (who was highly skilled) was brought in to perfectly pose as, and she was forced to be the secretary for the actor in charatacter all day and watch the actual boss die all night.

Of course, to also be fair, RAH also went 'nutso sex with 12 YOs/daughters' crazy to the point I stopped reading post"'Friday" even though his juvies were my favs in elementary school.

Blogger Jay Lucas April 25, 2015 4:03 PM  

@ Fatherless MRA - Re: ex-fems

I once tried to argue Men's Rights, a Science based approach or both would be a suitable fourth wave for feminism.

My involvement in women's issues always seemed to be on the theme of women taking responsibility for themselves. And if rights and responsibilities go together, then Men's Rights is the natural component of male responsibility. The intuition for the first part was present with most people I knew who never used the F word. I believe it's present for most people as to Men's Rights.

I imagine the SJW mob understands, but doesn't realize they understand. Think of it as the wisdom of crowds? Someone like Warren Farrell is certainly hard to dismiss when you hear him speak.

As for 4GW... I haven't read that material either.

@ IM2L844 = Re: Let them rape cake

I doubt it'll get that bad. Anyone that manages to make enemies out of the traditional church and traditional liberalism is dumb. Yes, they've partly co-opted both, but once powerful values are articulated they take on a life of their own.

I don't speak Jesus anymore than I speak Music, but I know a sweet note from a sour one when I hear it. And guys like Hitchens always came off a little stronger on Free Speech than on politics.

Blogger automatthew April 25, 2015 4:04 PM  

Of course, to also be fair, RAH also went 'nutso sex with 12 YOs/daughters' crazy to the point I stopped reading post"'Friday" even though his juvies were my favs in elementary school.

The Lazarus Long stuff was very sick, 'tis true. What happened to the man? His early stuff, juvie or grown-up, still seems virtuous to me, even on recent re-reads.

Blogger automatthew April 25, 2015 4:09 PM  

Double Star is deeper than most of Heinlein. "Lorenzo the Great", a.k.a. Lawrence Smith, is one of his most memorable characters, sure, but something else is going on in that novel. There is so much talk of brainwashing, and how the good guys who coerce Lorenzo into doing the job are completely against it ... but then there are at least three times when Lorenzo flatly refuses to do the next insane thing they want him to do ... and then he ends up doing it anyway.

Also, I think Lorenzo may actually be a clone of John Joseph Bonfort.

I dunno. Probably I've just been reading too much Gene Wolfe.

Anonymous Harsh April 25, 2015 4:26 PM  

Is he really conflated us with the MRA movement? That's hysterical.

Anonymous Chuckles April 25, 2015 4:35 PM  

For full enjoyment, one should savour their brain-dead thread-bombing and trolling at A&D.

http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6721#comments

Blogger OldFan April 25, 2015 7:12 PM  

Of course, to also be fair, RAH also went 'nutso sex with 12 YOs/daughters' crazy to the point I stopped reading post"'Friday" even though his juvies were my favs in elementary school.

The Lazarus Long stuff was very sick, 'tis true. What happened to the man? His early stuff, juvie or grown-up, still seems virtuous to me, even on recent re-reads.

You guys missed the point by more than a few milliradians. In "Time Enough for Love", Long offers a lengthy culture-based argument for why he cannot have non-reproductive sexual contact with his two cloned red-headed daughters. He brilliantly describes the structure and mores of the lost world (even to us) of early 1900s Missouri and fervently believes that he can make them understand why he must decline their generous and heart-felt offer. The girls agree with him, but after he leaves they profess total puzzlement at what he was trying to say - he is a man from another world.

Now comes the punch line: since the offer obviously disturbs him, they will not make it again - solely because they love the old man and do not want to upset him. The message is that human decency is not contained in any single culture, but is found in all of the worthy ones. Heinlein is illustrating the difference between cultural MORES and universal human MORALS.

As far as the quite from "Rolling Stones" Grandma Hazel Stonebender's encounter with irrational discrimination based on gender may well be a reflection of what Mrs. Virginia Heinlein encountered in her own career. She was the better engineer, according to the author.

Just because SJWs incessantly rant about something does not render it totally non-existent.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza April 25, 2015 7:55 PM  

Go away? This anti feminist, proskinnycampiagn, men rights promoter isn't going anywhere.

{Use alliances and strategic control points in the industry to “shape” your opponents and make them conform to your will.

“Therefore, those skilled in war bring the enemy to the field of battle and are not brought there by him.” Sun Tzu

“Shaping you competition” means changing the rules of contest and making the competition conform to your desires and your actions. It means taking control of the situation away from your competitor and putting it in your own hands. One way of doing so is through the skillful use of alliances. By building a strong web of alliances, the moves of your competitors can be limited. Also, by controlling key strategic points in your industry, you will be able to call the tune to which your competitors dance.

6) Develop your character as a leader to maximize the potential of your employees.

“When one treats people with benevolence, justice and righteousness, and reposes confidence in them, the army will be united in mind and all will be happy to serve their leaders.” Sun Tzu}

Insulting readers here is just toxic to anothers purse strings, we spend our money upon what has integrity, CH. Therefore, side A, side B exists in permanence.

Unity of purpose and (gamergate, to game forevermore) for an SJW is like the FWB's they keep. Did you think I didn't know about some rather vocal SJW's kept closets?

You've been warned sjw.

Now! It's time to ensure all bikini's are ready. Buy a new one and buy some mix/n/ match pieces.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza April 25, 2015 7:58 PM  

And we require the shirt, "please dont feed the models."

Blogger LP 999/Eliza April 25, 2015 8:24 PM  

An education from an AWCA lasts a lifetime for SJW's.

Puppies and bikinis are more pressing than this disoriented group of sjw/runfromdebate types

Blogger automatthew April 26, 2015 12:07 AM  

The message is that human decency is not contained in any single culture, but is found in all of the worthy ones. Heinlein is illustrating the difference between cultural MORES and universal human MORALS.

Okay, now THAT sounds like Tad. But still isn't. Tad doesn't read SF.

So it's just another degenerate doing what degenerates do.

Blogger automatthew April 26, 2015 12:15 AM  

For those who don't know, here is a partial summary of the degeneracy of later Heinlein novels:

* Lazarus Long, aka Woodrow Wilson Smith, at the age of about 900 years travels back in time and fucks his mother, Maureen Johnson.
* Maureen Johnson is later rescued by time travelers just before her death from old age. Her first concern is to rescue her father via time travel so that he can fuck her, something she always wanted, but he would never do.
* Maureen Johnson set up an orgy where her husband fucked their daughter while she was being fucked by her son. Possibly other people were involved. I can't remember.
* The genius engineer character in Methuselah's Children turns out to be a genetic freak with XXY chromosomes, so of course he turns into a woman.

Blogger epobirs April 26, 2015 2:24 AM  

It's amusing how they speak of playing the long game when in reality their choices are quite limited. They can either continue under the current rules, which were explicitly crafted to create this very situation: participation by the vastly larger readership who could not attend a Worldcon in some far flung city. (And by no small coincidence help finance the festivities for those attending.) The Hugo voting was always intended to reach far beyond the SMOFs and core fannish types, although this is exactly what has them recoiling in horror today. I wonder, is there any retroactive movement to excommunicate Spider Robinson, who encouraged people to buy supporting memberships and vote back in the 70s?

The other choice is to eliminate or greatly increase the expense of a supporting membership. This would limit the voting to the attending and a small group of affluent fans. A very open shift towards elitism that would put the Hugo in a race towards the bottom with the Nebula to be the award most disconnected from the interests of the readership.

Perhaps off topic but I'm reminded of how I was offended by Michael Crichton in an interview about twenty years ago. The interviewer referred to his work as SF, which the bulk of it plainly was, and Crichton corrected him, saying it was general fiction. This was how the bookstores shelved it and it probably aided Crichton's sales considerably. At the time I felt Crichton was sneering at those of us who openly favored SF. Now, if I was bringing a novel to market, I'd have to give much thought to whether I'd avoid being classified under SF or any of the other genres.

Anonymous The other robot April 26, 2015 10:32 AM  

How do you get that from that citation? The whole point was that the woman in the story was capable of doing the job but, because she was a woman, couldn't get one in her field.

Both from the internal inconsistency of a statement like that in the context of the novel and from stuff in his other novels.

And Emmy Noether is irrelevant to this situation.

Firstly, any colony on the moon, for a long time to come is going to be plagued by insufficient specialists, and an engineer in the atomic energy field is going to be very much in short supply.

I have first-hand experience with people being in short supply, but there are other factors. You don't promote good engineers into management, you try to reward them in other ways. Further, the most reliable and productive workers are invariably married men with children, then married men. After that unmarried women with children (which the mother seems to be) young men and young women get to fight it out for bottom position.

That is, her expectation of being promoted seems highly unfounded and were she a good engineer in that position where there would definitely have been a shortage (because intelligent technical workers would be needed everywhere on the moon because dangerous environments are not forgiving of dumbness) they could have handled things by paying her more or giving her other benefits.

And what's with an unmarried woman with a child in that situation? Maybe he tells us later on that the father was killed in an accident or something, but high IQ women don't generally go in for that sort of thing (and Obama's mother is not a counter example.)

It reeks of SJWism.

Anonymous Anubis April 26, 2015 11:38 AM  

I am sick and tired of being a "Lawful Good" beta doormat in politics and daily struggle. I'd like to switch alignments to Evil, maybe Chaotic Evil but probably Neutral Evil.

If you played a paladin in DND & the evil necrobeastialitymancer overlord passed a law saying all paladins must genocide themselves, would you lose your LG status if you didn't obey that law?

"No," she admitted, "but my reasons were different. I saw three big, hairy, male men promoted over my head and not one of them could do a partial integration without a pencil."

Methinks she neglected to include that the 3 men are non Asian minorities as those are the only ones promoted that cant do math. See all the stories of 6 figure earning govt workers not smart enough to understand a mortgage.

"were she a good engineer in that position" Private sector recruiters would offer her the world so they could EEOC

"But when boiling it down, it always comes back to the incoherent relativism of SJWs wanting to have their cake and eat it too."

Some of the lesbians suing for wedding cakes are renewing their vows 2 years post so they can eat more cake. SJW cakes are a growth industry

It's amusing how they speak of playing the long game when in reality their choices are quite limited

Importing the 3rd world, giving them luxurious benefits while letting veterans die from lack of VA care sounds like a long game to me.

Anonymous The other robot April 26, 2015 12:38 PM  

Here is a Timeline of Heinlein's work.

It is interesting that The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress was written/published five years after Stranger in a Strange Land.

It is also interesting that some of the ideas expressed in Between Planets (ie, bombing cities on earth from orbit) are fully developed in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, albeit in non-nuclear form.

Anonymous The other robot April 26, 2015 12:41 PM  

"were she a good engineer in that position" Private sector recruiters would offer her the world so they could EEOC

Which is quite likely a result of RAH's SJW novels.

Also, were she even a mediocre engineer in that position, private sector recruiters would be lining up to recruit her.

However, it is not clear that EEOC would apply on a moon colony.

Anonymous The other robot April 26, 2015 1:13 PM  

However, it is not clear that EEOC would apply on a moon colony.

Or perhaps rough justice would apply. Anyone who got others killed because of their relative incompetence of stupid behavior would meet with an accident.

Anonymous Rick Moen April 27, 2015 2:49 AM  

Hello again, Theo. (You may recall I'm the guy you quoted.) It's pretty possible I don't know you very well, but I do read you, and occasionally comment here. So I perhaps have a better chance than 'they' ( = Worldcon conrunners?).

Thing is, being a reader here, I really don't see your readers as a monolith, because I see nice healthy dissension and a variety of views here, pretty much all the time. Thus, not much unity of purpose, as I said. You might want that, but I'm guessing you don't have it any more than most Web forums do.

No matter which way your alleged Xanatos Gambit works out in August, I'm thinking this whole megillah is going to get old in no more than a couple of years for a bunch of people you're counting on to do what you like at each year's Worldcon, even if it doesn't for you. For one thing, a bunch of your folks are going to increasingly question whether your enemy narrative applies to the Worldcon, and also discover that they love being part of it and start going native. We (for Worldcon-goer values of 'we') racked up decades of history corrupting the youth. And, as I said, we're patient. 10 years, 20, 30, keep trying, man, because the Worldcon will still be there, outlasting you.

(I can't prove this except by demonstration of course, in which case, stay tuned, and bring lots of long books.)

@fish, yeah, self-declared feminist since a teenager, according to the classic meaning of believing in, supporting, looking fondly on, hoping for, and/or working towards equality of the sexes, which makes me one of those horribly un- 'progressive' 2nd wave feminists. If you don't like my type, then to quote the classic Puppy comment, I don't care.

Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com

Anonymous Rick Moen April 27, 2015 3:04 AM  

Fatherless MRA, you know who told me that the Men's Rights Movement has some excellent points to make and some very just complaints? My wife Deirdre Saoirse Moen did. I honestly didn't know about the bias against men during divorce and child-custody hearings, as a example, because all the marriages in my family have ended the non-divorce way, i.e., one or both spouse becoming metabolically challenged.

Of course, I hear that MRA means a lot of different and sometimes overlapping things to different people. Maybe not even all of them flighty. ;->

Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com

Anonymous The other skeptic April 27, 2015 10:17 AM  

according to the classic meaning of believing in, supporting, looking fondly on, hoping for, and/or working towards equality of the sexes

Except you forgot to define equality. Have you looked at Martin van Crevald's book?

Blogger Marissa April 27, 2015 11:25 AM  

For one thing, a bunch of your folks are going to increasingly question whether your enemy narrative applies to the Worldcon, and also discover that they love being part of it and start going native. We (for Worldcon-goer values of 'we') racked up decades of history corrupting the youth.

Yes, the Ilk will fall for a bunch of fat faggots with little to no understanding of hygiene...sounds like your typical SJW romance novel.

Anonymous Rick Moen April 27, 2015 11:40 AM  

@The other skeptic: No, not among the Castalia House works I've read, but I'm sure it adequately covers the varying meanings of said term over history, plus that the reader has his/her nose thoroughly ground in the inherent impossibility of Mr. van Crevald's concept of 'complete equality'. For clarification purposes in case it's needed, I look fondly on the possibility of rough equality before the law and of opportunity, a more modest objective befitting an imperfect world. Those wanting to debate equality of result, 'complete equality', etc., can go argue with Mr. van Crevald and/or the ghost of Pol Pot.

Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com

Anonymous Rick Moen April 27, 2015 11:47 AM  

Marissa: Do you think I meant country matters? Sorry, no, quite married, and you can please keep your paws to yourself; I'm Scandinavian. The reference to corrupting the youth was a joke reference to an old guy in Athens with unfortunate taste in teas. You might have heard of him.

Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com

Anonymous The other skeptic (robot) April 27, 2015 7:54 PM  

For clarification purposes in case it's needed, I look fondly on the possibility of rough equality before the law and of opportunity, a more modest objective befitting an imperfect world.

Surely this was achieved by the '70s when I went to college. I think it is very clear that any divergence from equality in numbers in various professions is due to:

1. Differing interests, and

2. Differing variances in things like IQ such that there are far more males with very high IQ,

3. Differing means on some attributes (including probably, IQ, but certainly strength) such that men are simply more suitable for some positions.

It is also curious that women seem to make up something over 74% of the publishing industry.

Anonymous Rick Moen April 28, 2015 5:49 AM  

@The other skeptic wrote: Surely this was achieved by the '70s when I went to college.

Then, you win. Glad to see things have worked well for equality of opportunity and legal rights in your vicinity.

Somehow, I think you expected an ideological argument. As Dread Pirate Roberts said, 'Get used to disappointment.'

Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com

Anonymous The other skeptic (robot) April 28, 2015 10:20 AM  

Somehow, I think you expected an ideological argument. As Dread Pirate Roberts said, 'Get used to disappointment.'

I was simply trying to see whether or not you agreed that the equality that could be achieved, short of massive genetic engineering, had been achieved.

I am also interested in why the publishing industry shows such interesting ratios of males to females and homos to normals ... is it interests or is it something else.

Anonymous Rick Moen April 28, 2015 3:56 PM  

@The other skeptic: I saw no reason to dispute your assertion that you believed full equality had been achieved as a consequence of 1970s reform, so I good-naturedly said glad to hear that. You actually didn't ask me whether I agreed that equality under the law and equality of opportunity had been achieved. Impliedly you're asking that now.

(For purposes of clarification, I'm in the USA. Have no idea where you are.)

You seem to want me to furnish reasons to think that your view is mistaken. Maybe I could, maybe I couldn't, but am left to wonder, what is in this task for me? I don't recall volunteering for any such task, so are you offering to pay my consulting rates, two hour minimum? If this is just because you think I have nothing better to do, sorry, no, I do.

And sorry, I have no particular expertise on the publishing industry.

Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com

Anonymous Rick Moen April 29, 2015 1:02 AM  

@The other skeptic: I'm taking time away from reading Riding the Red Horse, Vol. 1 (not pulling your leg; I am) to post an afterthought. On account of personal laziness and arrogant lack of introspection (nothing I feel bad about, but one ought to know one's character defects), I inadvertently shaded the truth.[1] There's a third leg (in addition to equality at law and of opportunity) to what I intend when I say I'm a feminist: I'd rather live in a world that doesn't treat people like dirt just because they're female (or male, for that matter).

Back when my mother was widowed in '68, my preteen self got a good look at what a young widow as head of household goes through: crooks trying to steal her money, car mechanics assuming she's a credulous bimbo, having to figuratively strike lawyers upside the head to get taken seriously. Despite her having knocked all these cretins flat, I object to her having needed to expend all that effort. So, I take whatever small steps seem likely to help birth a world where sexist asshat behaviour becomes seen as quaintly distasteful, just as 'another drink for the road' has become. This doesn't mean wanting any Ayatollah in Charge of Punishing Sexist Asshats, just voting with my feet occasionally.

You think all significant problems were fixed by legal reforms in the '70s? I don't think so, most especially not on this third leg of the problem, which in my experience is very much a thing. As to the other two, I notice that EEOC's docket is still pretty full, for example, and I don't think many of those are made-up complaints.

[1] As a cultural tendency, we Scandinavians tend in our extreme arrogance and condescension to think you can't afford to pay us enough to get us to deliberately shade the truth. We are bad people.[tm]

Anonymous The other skeptic April 29, 2015 9:30 AM  

Well, thanks for the dialog.

I see such dialog as a way to help improve my grasp on reality and other people's view of the world.

I can see some similarities in our backgrounds. For my part the man who contributed my Y chromosome (along with another 22) abandoned my mother before I was born. She managed, after a journey of a couple of thousand miles, to find a step-father for me, but he seems to have been resentful of my presence and his abuse of my mother along with her medical issues lead to her death some ten years after my birth. He subsequently transferred that abuse, when he was inebriated, to my brother and I for a while.

For a long time I was heavily invested in the notion that women are greatly put upon but I eventually realized that women and men carry different risks in life and different abilities. Women, at least in racial groups where large amounts of paternal investment is needed, carry the risk that they could be abandoned by the man who got them pregnant, while men carry the risk that the child that is claimed to be theirs is not actually theirs. Thus, behavior is selected appropriately.

I also, eventually, came to appreciate my step-father for keeping a roof over my head and being an otherwise adequate father.

Anonymous Rick Moen April 30, 2015 3:41 PM  

@The other skeptic: Yeah, I just read that and think I understand your perspective. And completely concur in everything you said, there -- though the extent of the implications of investment in biological progeny can be debated. (My own perspective in doubtless heavily influenced by the fact that my parents could not have biological children and adopted an infant son and daughter, so to me kinship is everything and genetic descent a curio of scant importance unless one needs a bone marrow transfusion.)

I'd like to say that if we ever meet, beer's on me, but you probably can see there'd be a bit of downside pocket risk to my having an open tab for a Web-forum handle. ;-> Still, the sentiment's there.

Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com

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