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Friday, May 22, 2015

Immigration = unemployment

It's always fascinating how economists who like nothing better than to cite the Law of Supply and Demand turn around and claim that increasing the labor supply by nearly 20 percent neither reduces average wages nor native employment:
The number of foreign-born workers kept rising. Last year, there were 25.7 million in the U.S., up from 25.3 million in 2013. They accounted for 16.5% of the labor force in 2014, up from 16.3% the year before and 15.5% in 2009, the year the recovery began.

The foreign-born worker labor-force participation rate—the share aged 16 and older working or looking for work–was 66.0% in 2014, higher than the native-born rate of 62.3%. Foreign-born workers are more likely than native-born workers to be male and more likely to be between the ages of 25 to 54, ages when the participation rate is highest, according to the BLS.

About 48.3% of the foreign-born workers in 2014 were Hispanic and 24.1% of them were Asian last year, according to BLS. The composition of foreign workers has shifted since 2009, with Hispanics’ share decreasing and Asians’ rising.

Foreign-born workers saw their median usual weekly earnings rise to $664 in 2014, up from $643 in 2013. The difference between the weekly earnings of foreign-born workers and their native-born counterparts narrowed slightly as well from $162 in 2013 to $156 in 2014. The earnings gap peaked at $173 in 2010 and has been trending down since.
Since 20 percent of the US labor force is non-American, it should be no surprise that the number of Americans now outside the labor force has increased dramatically in line with the increase in immigration.

This shouldn't be rocket science. Let's use a reductio ad absurdum to explain. If 100 percent of the labor force is foreign-born, what percent of native-born Americans have jobs?

a) 100
b) zero
c) mu

The immigrants aren't even that much cheaper, as their median usual weekly earnings are 81 percent of the native-born workers. If we assume that employers are unable to spend any more money on employment than they already are, that means that immigrants are responsible for putting 20.8 million Americans out of work.

Labels:

125 Comments:

Blogger Stilicho #0066 May 22, 2015 12:05 PM  

Democracy, diversity, liberty: pick any two.

Blogger Stilicho #0066 May 22, 2015 12:08 PM  

When can we expect Krugman et al. to tell us that unemployed Americans don't matter as long as the foreign workers support them?

Anonymous Wanderer May 22, 2015 12:20 PM  

Hmm, so that all-female immigrant labor force is looking like a killer business model!

Blogger epobirs May 22, 2015 12:21 PM  

81%? That's huge. Any enterprise would be thrilled to reduce labor costs by 19%. That factor alone could make many a failing company profitable, so the temptation is plain. Likewise the interest in automation.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents May 22, 2015 12:24 PM  

Not just economists. For over 20 years I've been arguing with libertarians about open borders, and it has always been amazing to me that the same people who will discuss the price of gold or natural gas under the law of supply and demand can't see that the same law applies to human expertise. This is why any true libertarian state would exist only for a short time, because its success would be magnetic to non-libertarians, who would overrun it in short order.

Sometimes I wonder if economists have children, or not? In the last few years I've run across impassioned articles from time to time, written by mothers of young men falsely accused of rape, and in several of them the mother admits she herself worked to pass the law that had ensared her son. It's always "we didn't mean it this way!" of course. So do econmists have children at all, or do they manage to park their kids off to an Ivy where connections matter more than competence? Or is this just another "ideology trumps family" concept?

I think that the western governments should actively recruit enonomists from India. Import 100,000 or so of them into academia, think tanks, the press, etc. so that the price of economism drops by 30% or so. Then see if economists continue to praise open borders or not.

Blogger David-2 May 22, 2015 12:26 PM  

Mickey Kaus has been on this issue from the left side of the political spectrum for years. For him, on the left, he's a lonely lonely voice.

Blogger dc.sunsets May 22, 2015 12:27 PM  

We all owe the debt to ourselves, right? So I guess if Amal displaces Greg in the IT department, a job's a job's a job.

Maroeconomics, collectivism piled higher and deeper.

Anonymous BigGaySteve May 22, 2015 12:27 PM  

Illegal aliens are far cheaper as taxpayers can pay many of your benefits and if they get hurt at work you never saw them for workmans comp. H1B and illegals are willing to do substandard work via threat of deportation, from passing buggy software to ripping insulation in half before putting it up to save the employer money that white people would consider abhorrent in matters that might not be detectable by the consumer for months or years. The supposedly non splash gas cans came from the mind of an Asian engineer .

If you are looking to cut costs, health care costs are less for Asians and whites until they hit 45 or have kids, which made catastrophic coverage a better deal for them than obamacare

Blogger dc.sunsets May 22, 2015 12:29 PM  

Democracy, diversity, liberty: pick any two.

Am I wrong to suggest that democracy and liberty are implacable enemies above the level of "what do we want on our pizza?"

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents May 22, 2015 12:29 PM  

Oh, and let us not forget that according to the blank-slate theory of human action, illiterate grade school dropouts from Chiapas are totally interchangeable with community college students from Minneapolis. So there's no possibly social problem with population replacement of a hard working, rather quiet group by people from regions noted for civil disturbance.

Because science, or something.

Blogger YIH May 22, 2015 12:30 PM  

Mangan (apparently on extended hiatus) pointed out the same: Two-thirds of jobs under Obama went to immigrants:
A new analysis of government data shows that two-thirds of the net increase in employment since President Obama took office has gone to immigrant workers, primarily legal immigrants. Although the level of new immigration overall has fallen, legal immigration remains very high. While economists debate the extent to which immigrants displace natives, the new data make clear that there is no general labor shortage in the United States. This analysis calls into question the wisdom of bringing in more than a million new legal immigrants each year at a time when the employment situation remains bleak.
IOW, most of the post-'08 'job recovery' has gone to immigrants.

Blogger Stilicho #0066 May 22, 2015 12:32 PM  

I think that the western governments should actively recruit enonomists from India. Import 100,000 or so of them into academia, think tanks, the press, etc. so that the price of economism drops by 30% or so. Then see if economists continue to praise open borders or not.

It's already happening in accounting. Look at the roster for E&Y for starters. Babu from Bombay is firmly ensconced and is hiring his cousins.

Anonymous Huckleberry (#87) -- est. 1977 May 22, 2015 12:33 PM  

Once the illegals are legitimized and folded into the payroll deductions abyss, that 19% savings will evaporate. Contrary to popular belief, those immigrants aren't being brought here primarily to provide cheaper labor -- the secret trade deal being rammed up our ass behind closed doors will screw over the immigrants working here even harder than the indigenous -- the whole point is to balance entitlements and to install a transitional labor and population pool to float things until a fully automated workforce takes root.
Then the fun begins.

Anonymous BigGaySteve May 22, 2015 12:35 PM  

Am I wrong to suggest that democracy and liberty are implacable enemies above the level of "what do we want on our pizza?"

Obviously you haven't heard about the shotgun gay wedding, pointing the shotgun at the pizza place in Indiana & saying that "We Support Gay Marriage" spelled out in anchovies. Anywway once the majority votes for more free stuff paid for by the minority its toast. Only 34% support the rest in the US because govt. workers don't produce anything, the 47% number falsely counted taxpaying govt workers who got more money from the govt than they paid in.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan May 22, 2015 12:35 PM  

I'll bet a box of ammo that Tor has more immigrants on its payroll than it has Black Americans

Blogger Stilicho #0066 May 22, 2015 12:37 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Stilicho #0066 May 22, 2015 12:44 PM  

Am I wrong to suggest that democracy and liberty are implacable enemies above the level of "what do we want on our pizza?"

Not if you cut out the diversity. We did pretty well with both in this country until the mid-1800's when we started letting in large numbers immigrants who had no concept of the "rights of Englishmen" for which we fought in the Revolution and no desire to learn.

Now, if you start with a population that has no concept of liberty, you're not going to get liberty no matter how homogenous the population.

Blogger Harsh May 22, 2015 12:47 PM  

Why aren't blacks outraged about immigrant workers? They must be losing jobs at a faster clip than anyone else.

Blogger Stilicho #0066 May 22, 2015 12:49 PM  

Illegal aliens are far cheaper as taxpayers can pay many of your benefits and if they get hurt at work you never saw them for workmans comp.

That's a side effect to the real cost driver: if you increase the supply beyond any increase in demand, the price WILL fall.

Blogger Stilicho #0066 May 22, 2015 12:50 PM  

Why aren't blacks outraged about immigrant workers? They must be losing jobs at a faster clip than anyone else.

Yes, but their job losses are due to white racism. The law of supply and demand is a white law that does not apply to them.

Anonymous Huckleberry (#87) -- est. 1977 May 22, 2015 12:53 PM  

Why aren't blacks outraged about immigrant workers?

Perhaps the answer lies in the uncomfortable realization that not as many blacks were working as you'd think.

Blogger Joshua Dyal May 22, 2015 12:55 PM  

Why aren't blacks outraged about immigrant workers? They must be losing jobs at a faster clip than anyone else.

Yeah, but how many of them weren't working anyway? As long as the government is willing to rob the productive to keep them in cradle-to-grave housing, EBT, healthcare, etc. why would they want to be employed? It's a racial tradition that goes back at least to slavery, unless you had the bad luck to have a particularly harsh master.

Blogger CarpeOro May 22, 2015 1:01 PM  

"81%? That's huge. Any enterprise would be thrilled to reduce labor costs by 19%. That factor alone could make many a failing company profitable, so the temptation is plain. Likewise the interest in automation."

I'd argue it is a paper savings only. Working in IT for numerous large companies and dealing with vendor support for most of the big name companies, I firmly believe the cost added for communication issues (there is a reason for the old saw time is money) added to the cost of often lesser quality work and skills negate a good portion of that difference. There is no such thing as a holistic approach to the bottom line as far as accountants are concerned. The problem is that management looks at that and works on the basis of how much there bonus will be for that paper cost savings. There are very few leaders in management from what I've seen. The majority appear to be far more mercenary than even the contract companies and prove more than willing to loot the coffers of the company at which they work. Doing what I can now to get out of the big corporate environment.

Blogger Noah B #120 May 22, 2015 1:25 PM  

"When can we expect Krugman et al. to tell us that unemployed Americans don't matter as long as the foreign workers support them?"

That could be the focus of an entire book.

Blogger Stilicho #0066 May 22, 2015 1:32 PM  

That could be the focus of an entire book.

The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire?

Blogger Noah B #120 May 22, 2015 1:38 PM  

Too negative. I was thinking more along the lines of, "The Road to Perpetual Prosperity." There are lots of people would actually buy that.

Blogger Cail Corishev May 22, 2015 1:55 PM  

Why aren't blacks outraged about immigrant workers?

Because they're on the same side; and up until now, by working together, the various designated victim groups have always been able to grow the pie of freebies fast enough that they all gained.

Aside from that, the blacks who are willing to work and capable of anything requiring, say, 8th grade writing and math skills, get snapped up by all the government and corporate bureaucracies that need to fill quotas. Then subtract out the ones who are content to live on government assistance of one form or another. How many does that leave? How many black men are out there trying to get a job milking cows or mudding drywall? Not many, and the number will be zero if the elites get their way entirely, because that work isn't dignified enough; the image of a black man working with his hands is too unsettling for them.

Anonymous Too-Soon-ami May 22, 2015 1:55 PM  

BGS: "The supposedly non splash gas cans came from the mind of an Asian engineer ."

Too many self-immolating Buddhists were getting splashed in their eyes. (Amazingly)

Anonymous WhiteKnightLeo May 22, 2015 1:59 PM  

I seem to recall few periods of unemployment in the period prior to 1920, hence my skepticism at this thesis.




I would substitute 'Socialism = Unemployment" in it's place/

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents May 22, 2015 2:00 PM  

Stilicho

It's already happening in accounting. Look at the roster for E&Y for starters. Babu from Bombay is firmly ensconced and is hiring his cousins.


Part of me says "Faster, please" but in reality Paul Krugman will never be displaced by Babu's cousin so the desired effect just isn't in reach.

The implied tribalism in Babu hiring his cousin is another detail of open borders and blank-slate-fail that we are never supposed to Notice.

Blogger Cail Corishev May 22, 2015 2:01 PM  

I think that the western governments should actively recruit economists from India.

I don't know who said it first (maybe Steve Sailer), but it'd be great to see the same thing happen with the media. There are some very hot high-caste Indian women, and many of them already speak English. Get them some diction lessons to reduce the accent (but don't wipe it out completely, because accents are hot too), and stick them in front of the teleprompters for $50/day. Replace a few of the millionaire talking heads with cheap imports, and see how fast the others change their tune on "jobs Americans won't do."

(Actually, I'm not sure they would change their tune, because I think ideology trumps pay for many of them, and they might still not be smart enough to make the connection. But it's worth a try.)

Blogger Cail Corishev May 22, 2015 2:05 PM  

The problem is that management looks at that and works on the basis of how much there bonus will be for that paper cost savings.

Right. I'd argue that immigrants are often more expensive than natives, once you account for the true costs and any reduction in productivity. But that doesn't matter; what matters is perception. If the boss believes immigrants are cheaper or better, he's going to hire them, and good luck changing his mind with facts once he's invested in that decision.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents May 22, 2015 2:08 PM  

There are some very hot high-caste Indian women, and many of them already speak English. Get them some diction lessons to reduce the accent (but don't wipe it out completely, because accents are hot too), and stick them in front of the teleprompters for $50/day.

+1 on that and don't even bother with the usual bottle blonde dye job, either. Some of the Asian women on Bloomberg overnight totally eclipse the usual Fox/CNN/MOUSE former flight attendants.


(Actually, I'm not sure they would change their tune, because I think ideology trumps pay for many of them, and they might still not be smart enough to make the connection. But it's worth a try.)


The experiment itself would be educational to others.

Blogger Salt May 22, 2015 2:09 PM  

This is why any true libertarian state would exist only for a short time

A true(?) libertarian state would not have any safety net outside the private; i.e. the Church. It would have equilibrium pressures on wages and would be totally market driven. Only in the absence of corruption can a true market operate.

I like the idea of a libertarian state, just cannot envision it in practice.

Anonymous BGS May 22, 2015 2:23 PM  

I like the idea of a libertarian state, just cannot envision it in practice.

Open boarders and zoning/housing are the hardest factors to correct for. With houses being most peoples greatest investments, your neighbor's lawful actions on their property can lower your property's value.

Blogger Daniel May 22, 2015 2:26 PM  

This can't be so. The Bureau of Labor Statistics stops counting the unemployed after about two years, so the correct answer is:

d) 100% - what the hell is a native-born American?

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents May 22, 2015 2:33 PM  


I like the idea of a libertarian state, just cannot envision it in practice.


Parts of the US in the 1820's were probably as close as one could get. What happened to that? Although I guess some could argue the same about Wyoming or the Dakotas a half century back; do what you want within the guardrails and no one cares, step out of those guardrails…not good.

Seems to me that a successful libertarian community would have to have very strong informal guardrails against bad behavior; that means pretty much a monoculture. If everyone in town is a Finnish / Swedish / Norwegian Lutheran, or everyone's a Scots-Irish Prot, then a lot of bad behavior is unthinkable. I mean it's the kind of thing few would think of and virtually none would do, that kind of "unthinkable".

But if some percentage of the town is tribal in nature and disagrees with the rest of town on what is acceptable, then more rules / laws / judges / courts / jailers /etc. will be needed. It doesn't take too many Mafioso in a community to change the way business is done.

And therefore, immigration in any substantial numbers will always kill a true libertarian state in one generation, maybe even quicker. So libertarians who are open-borders fanatics are self-destructively foolish.

Blogger Student in Blue May 22, 2015 2:36 PM  

I only skimmed the comments so far, but:

What about the argument that the supply of labor presented by illegal immigrants is balanced out by the demand of products (food and room at a bare minimum) that more bodies require?

Blogger Giraffe May 22, 2015 2:37 PM  

Why aren't blacks outraged about immigrant workers?

What's to be outraged about? They still get a check. The outrage will come when the check doesn't come. Or when it bounces.

Blogger Nobody May 22, 2015 2:40 PM  

The problem with America, is that it's full of Americans.

If we can't get them out, we'll breed them out.


It is as simple as that. That is what these numbers come down to. That, is what everyone keeps missing.

Blogger Kurt May 22, 2015 2:43 PM  

It will have to be a self-selected state like in Heinlein's Moon is a Harsh Mistress or even what was shown in the Gundam anime series. People who migrate away from the world can potentially do this. I guess this is where the sea steading idea comes from, but I suspect that won't work until someone has a LOT of money and gets a nuke + some armed forces to keep out the statists and riff raff.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents May 22, 2015 2:44 PM  

Student in blue
What about the argument that the supply of labor presented by illegal immigrants is balanced out by the demand of products (food and room at a bare minimum) that more bodies require?

Seems to me it is simiar to an argument Frederic Bastiat already covered in the 1850's..

Blogger Daniel May 22, 2015 2:44 PM  

I'd argue it is a paper savings only.

Amen. Now, if the company converts over entirely to segregated units, it gains a little bit in the communication area, but the big costs are trans-sectional anyhow. When QA and Development don't even share a common language, much less business objectives, you end up paying 81% retail for a model that doesn't work very well.

It is kind of like getting a knock-off charger. Yes it is 20% less, but it isn't going to work as long.

You can't have a libertarian state. Period. You can have a state that allows for greater libertarianism and one that allows for less. But you can't have a libertarian government, unless it entirely consists of a divinely designated king who spends his waking hours smashing his scepter into his own nuts repeatedly.

Libertarian means "as state-free as possible." It doesn't matter what form of government is in power: democracy, oligarchy, monarchy...as long as it is smallish and hands-off on anything that isn't transients, trade or tanks.

Blogger Stilicho #0066 May 22, 2015 2:45 PM  


Parts of the US in the 1820's were probably as close as one could get.


We did pretty well with both in this country until the mid-1800's

What happened to that?

we started letting in large numbers immigrants who had no concept of the "rights of Englishmen" for which we fought in the Revolution and no desire to learn.

do what you want within the guardrails and no one cares, step out of those guardrails…not good.

Diversity and liberty can work, but require a firm hand.

If everyone in town is a Finnish / Swedish / Norwegian Lutheran, or everyone's a Scots-Irish Prot, then a lot of bad behavior is unthinkable. I mean it's the kind of thing few would think of and virtually none would do, that kind of "unthinkable".

Democracy and liberty work as well, but require like-minded citizens who support the concept.

But if some percentage of the town is tribal in nature and disagrees with the rest of town on what is acceptable, then more rules / laws / judges / courts / jailers /etc. will be needed.

Or you could get rid of the diverse tribe. Like I said: democracy, diversity, liberty: pick any two.


Blogger Daniel May 22, 2015 2:53 PM  

What about the argument that the supply of labor presented by illegal immigrants is balanced out by the demand of products (food and room at a bare minimum) that more bodies require?

Well, it isn't.

When you import new labor at a lower price with a lower purchase rate, you aren't adding jobs, nor increasing demand for products, you are moving the employed to unemployed. Thus what you have is an oversupply of labor, which drives down the price of labor, displaces higher price labor, and reduces demand vs. previous demand.

Now, from a Guatemalan's perspective, the demand goes up. Where before they demanded one plastic shovel per household to dig out of a mudslide and hopefully not starve to death, they can now demand an apartment, job, food and handouts in place of the original employee's full income, apartment, food and no handouts.

Blogger Student in Blue May 22, 2015 3:04 PM  

Well then, time to go full Devil's Advocate.

@Paradigm
Bastiat's argument was about how value was being destroyed whenever the glass got broken. Where is the value that you are arguing is getting destroyed by the illegal immigrants? Where is the value that would be destroyed if the illegal immigrants were the same culture as the native country?

@Daniel
New labor doesn't require more food? New labor does not require more houses, more apartments, more rent?

Is the problem with the new labor, or is it with the government programs that pay for everything?

Anonymous Goshawk May 22, 2015 3:04 PM  

Yeah, and I'll bet they didn't even count all the ways foreign workers are competing for American jobs. You know, they're not just hopping the boarder. Some are joining perfectly legal work sites like elance.com, odesk.com, outsource.com, 99designs.com, etc...

These websites offer foreign workers a chance to bid for jobs that once went to Americans. It's really simple you see...American business owners simply post their job request on one of these websites and then registered service providers post their competing bids for the job. It's nothing but a race to the bottom. The cheapest bid always wins—well...99.99% of the time.

How bad is it? Would you believe logos for $49.00, complete websites for $100.00, and software engineers for as little as $8.00 an hour. At least that is what outsource.com advertises during the Rush Limbaugh Show. Good grief!

There is simply no way for Americans to compete with foreign workers on these sites because our standard of living is so different. So, if you're an American freelance Graphic Designer, Web Designer, Writer, Software Engineer, etc... good luck.

Blogger Augustus Octavian May 22, 2015 3:08 PM  

>Sometimes I wonder if economists have children, or not?

Well, Bryan Caplan has four kids if I remember right and holds a radical open borders position (Namely abolish completly, the sooner the better). And of course economists take a bird eyes view. Imagine this: John Doe makes 40k working in the widget factory. He is replaced by Juan making 30k and has to subsequently take a job stacking widget boxes for 20k. From the economists perspective, the economy has grown by 10k, Juan will generate additional demand and the saved labour cost will result in lower prices or more investment.

>because its success would be magnetic to non-libertarians, who would overrun it in short order.

At least some libertarians like Hans-Hermann Hoppe sincere enough to point out that a libertarian society would have to throw out those bent on undermining it. Of course, this offended the leftist cancer growing in libertarian circles, namely the liberaltarians and left-libertarians.

(hopefully not a double post)

Blogger Stilicho #0066 May 22, 2015 3:10 PM  

What about the argument that the supply of labor presented by illegal immigrants is balanced out by the demand of products (food and room at a bare minimum) that more bodies require?

Ah communism, it just won't stay dead!

There was a recent study (gov't?) cited in these parts that showed that roughly 64% of immigrants are net consumers of gov't transfer payments.

Moreover, the cited figures conclusively disprove the hypothetical.

Besides, that hypothetical assumes that immigrants produce less than they consume which just results in lower standards of living for the natives.



Blogger Student in Blue May 22, 2015 3:21 PM  

@Stilicho
Ah communism, it just won't stay dead!

There was a recent study (gov't?) cited in these parts that showed that roughly 64% of immigrants are net consumers of gov't transfer payments.


Then isn't the problem with the government who thinks that giving immigrants free stuff is a good idea, and not necessarily the immigrants themselves?

Besides, that hypothetical assumes that immigrants produce less than they consume which just results in lower standards of living for the natives.

I thought the hypothetical was assuming immigrants producing roughly equal to consuming. Hence the "balanced out by the demand of products".

Blogger Stilicho #0066 May 22, 2015 3:21 PM  

Alternatively, the hypothetical assumes a zero sum game where production and consumption are perfectly balanced and ignores the fact that the law of supply and demand requires that the immigrants who replace native workers do so at lower wages, thus reducing either consumption or savings. While there will be some new demand created by the presence of more people, that demand is offset by the lower wages available for consumption. This, in turn, leads to use of savings (until gone) and then credit to maintain aggregate living standards and, ultimately, lower living standards across the board except for those who profit directly from the lower wages (and only then in the short term).

Blogger Stilicho #0066 May 22, 2015 3:27 PM  

Then isn't the problem with the government who thinks that giving immigrants free stuff is a good idea, and not necessarily the immigrants themselves?

Sure, that's a problem but it also shows that these immigrants are consuming more than they are producing. Now, I can see why an idiot Keynesian who believes that economics begins and ends with consumption would fall for that. In the real world, however, someone has to pay for that consumption. Who? The immigrants observably aren't. The natives workers remaining not only have to pay for that consumption, but also for the consumption of the displaced natives. Even if some portion of the displaced natives are employed via transfer payments to provide for that "extra" consumption. TAANSTAFL.

Blogger Stilicho #0066 May 22, 2015 3:32 PM  

TANSTAAFL

Blogger Daniel May 22, 2015 3:33 PM  

New labor doesn't require more food? New labor does not require more houses, more apartments, more rent?

That isn't what you asked. In your hypothetical, there is no new labor.

Blogger Student in Blue May 22, 2015 3:45 PM  

@Stilicho
[...] ignores the fact that the law of supply and demand requires that the immigrants who replace native workers do so at lower wages, thus reducing either consumption or savings.

Savings of whom? Consumption of whom? The person saving money here is the businessman, and his savings and consumption would increase from this measure, wouldn't it?

I think that was called Trickle-down economics.

Honestly if anything it would increase wealth disparity, not necessarily decrease "savings and consumption" as a whole.

Sure, that's a problem but it also shows that these immigrants are consuming more than they are producing.

That's true of everyone who qualifies for government handouts, however. So again, isn't the problem then with the government instead of illegal immigrants?

TAANSTAFL.

Gesundheit.
(TANSTAAFL, btw)

Blogger tweell May 22, 2015 3:47 PM  

The rule of thumb I've used for employees is that they cost double their salary, the other half is the various government mandates, insurance and such. It's been a few years, but I seriously doubt that this has gotten better. An illegal employee costs only what their lower salary is. This means that the 19% saved is more like 59% total saved. Two illegals are cheaper than one citizen. Companies are all but forced to hire illegals if their competition is doing so, otherwise they can easily be driven out of business due to the difference in bottom lines.

Blogger Student in Blue May 22, 2015 3:47 PM  

@Daniel
That isn't what you asked. In your hypothetical, there is no new labor.

You'll have to explain that one to me, especially as you had already referenced "new labor".

I thought it was understood that the "new labor" was the illegal immigrant in this situation.

Blogger Danby May 22, 2015 3:51 PM  

It's an observable reality that the huge influx of immigrants has bolstered housing prices. I'm 90% sure that's a major reason behind it. imagine what would happen to rental prices were 20% of the market were to go away.

That doesn't make it a net positive though. wealth is created by production. Since the question assumes no increase in production, then obvously wealth won't go up. Wealth will be shifted, in this case from the middle (IT workers) and lower middle (roofers) classes. To whom is the question.

Three guesses

Blogger Cail Corishev May 22, 2015 4:01 PM  

These websites offer foreign workers a chance to bid for jobs that once went to Americans.

I spend some time on a programming forum where guys help each other with troubleshooting and coding ideas. We get a ton of questions from guys with Indian-sounding usernames, which show a complete lack of programming knowledge. I'm talking guys who couldn't write a working "hello world" without help. And 90% of them ignore (or can't understand) the forum's basic rules and formatting. They just come in, sign up for an account, and then say, "I needs search 30TB gene data for texts that are [such-and-such], how do I do?"

The other day, a guy asked how to do something rudimentary and said he'd been struggling with it for a week. I wrote it in literally 10 minutes, and half of that was spent creating a sample file to test it on. I'm good, but not the best. So if you assume he was talking about a 40-hour work week, he spent at least 240 times as much time on it as a competent programmer. Even if he get paid $1/hour, he's really costing his employer $240/hour -- and he hadn't finished the job yet and probably never would.

I told him next time he should hire an actual programmer to do the job for $50, charge his employer for a week, and take a holiday.

That's not unusual; that's typical. That's their "efficiency of free trade," right there. It might be efficient at putting more money into some CEO or politician's pocket, but it's not efficient when it comes to getting productive work done.

Blogger Student in Blue May 22, 2015 4:08 PM  

@Danby

That doesn't make it a net positive though. wealth is created by production. Since the question assumes no increase in production, then obvously wealth won't go up.

By "no increase in production", are you talking about quantity/volume, or are you talking about per capita?

Also the hypothetical was in response to the "Immigration = Unemployment" topic, which isn't necessarily about wealth, but rather the amount of jobs available.

Three guesses

And the first two don't count.

Anonymous Roundtine May 22, 2015 4:28 PM  

Blacks are anti-immigration.

Blogger cavalier973 May 22, 2015 4:35 PM  

If there is a surplus of labor, then I assume that it is due to some type of government intervention. A surplus in any other resource would be quickly eliminated through market processes.

Blogger Noah B #120 May 22, 2015 4:35 PM  

The people that blacks actually vote for is not a very good reflection of what blacks claim to believe. The same is true of white Republicans.

Blogger Marissa May 22, 2015 4:39 PM  

At least that is what outsource.com advertises during the Rush Limbaugh Show.

Is Limbaugh pro-immigration?

Blogger Noah B #120 May 22, 2015 4:42 PM  

As a general rule, the things advertised on AM talk radio are scams.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents May 22, 2015 4:48 PM  

This shouldn't be rocket science. Let's use a reductio ad absurdum to explain. If 100 percent of the labor force is foreign-born, what percent of native-born Americans have jobs?

a) 100
b) zero
c) mu


d) Who cares? It's all good, because Cheap Chalupas!

Blogger Danby May 22, 2015 4:49 PM  

Well, i was speaking in absolute terms, but if you want to go a per capita route, it works the same way.
It still works out to no net overall benefit.
Total wages paid = W
number of people dependent on those wages, either directly or indirectly, through taxes = P
Migrants = M
Amount of wages per capita = W/P
So with more people wages per capita = W/P+M

except, it's always left out of these analyses, the foreign-born population is actually supporting a large number of people people back home, so either
R= relatives back home being supported by immigrant
wages per capita (absolute) = W / (P + R)
Money wired out of the country = G
wages per capita (retained) = (W - G) / (Y + M)

And back in reality land, wages do actually go down. so the real equation is more like ((W * .8) - G) /(P + M)

How do living standards overall not go down? This is grade school arithmetic.

Yes, there will be some increased consumption, mostly of enormous trucks, rental housing, rice and beans. But since we're talking about people used to a substantially lower standard of living anyway, it will be much less than you probably expect, and definitely not enough to offset the reduced wages.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents May 22, 2015 4:52 PM  

But if some percentage of the town is tribal in nature and disagrees with the rest of town on what is acceptable, then more rules / laws / judges / courts / jailers /etc. will be needed.

Stilicho
Or you could get rid of the diverse tribe.

Major fail on the holiest of holies, the non-aggression principle. So once again we see a libertaria can't exist for very long, before it becomes something else, one way or another.

Blogger Danby May 22, 2015 4:59 PM  

Libertarianism is a political philosophy, not an economic philosophy, for people who don't have children.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents May 22, 2015 5:01 PM  

Student in blue
Bastiat's argument was about how value was being destroyed whenever the glass got broken. Where is the value that you are arguing is getting destroyed by the illegal immigrants?

Cultural cohesion for a start, established social mores, that whole "social contract" thang can be damaged, maybe beyond repair. When Victor Davis Hanson was a lad, young men in high school learned a work ethic in the summer; some bagged groceries, some worked roofing, some mowed lawns. All of them learned how to show up on time, do what they were told, not cause trouble, and they got paid for it.

Try finding a summer job for a teenager now. It's difficult, because there are always illegal adult men willing to work for teenagers wages, so the teenagers are pushed out of the market.

I've had illegals offer to cut my lawn, rake my leaves, etc. They tend to do a poor job, and therefore they are not worth my hire. I have tried to hire neighborhood teenagers but most of them do not want to work at that job, they apparently regard it as beneath them because "it's work for illegals".

All this leaves aside the increased burden on my community that the illegals present: I could go to the ER any day of the week, and there would be drunken illegals being treated for accidents, pregnant illegals being treated for gestational diabetes caused by their obesity, non-illegals being treated for injuries caused by illegals. All this stuff has a price tag, and there's no way that the illegals are paying enough taxes to even remotely cover it. And don't pull the "oh, but their children will" card because the high school dropout rate says that isn't true, either.

It's a classic example of socialized costs and privatized profits, and yeah, that's part of what Bastiat was explaining.

Where is the value that would be destroyed if the illegal immigrants were the same culture as the native country?

Er, non sequitur for a start.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents May 22, 2015 5:08 PM  

Danby
Libertarianism is a political philosophy, not an economic philosophy, for people who don't have children.

Yeah, I thought it was a great idea when I was a 30-something with no children and all my relatives were in a state of good mental health.

Blogger dc.sunsets May 22, 2015 5:15 PM  

I like the idea of a libertarian state, just cannot envision it in practice.

As Sallust observed 2000 years ago: "Most men do not desire freedom; most only wish for a just master."

As long as the mindset of a slave predominates, slavery will persist. The War to prevent Southern Secession emancipated slaves but it enslaved free men (borrowing a book title.)

We live under political slavery because most of our fellow men prefer it that way.

Blogger John Morris May 22, 2015 5:18 PM  

Think everyone is making a basic error in engaging the Enemy's stated arguments over immigration. So long as we are debating that we are losing. They are Progs and just like SJWs they always lie.

They are simply importing a new electorate. Their reasoning is utterly simple; pass amnesty, Texas becomes Blue and we win the Presidency forever. Congress is already impotent and unimportant, but we get that back anyway. The End.

Blogger dc.sunsets May 22, 2015 5:22 PM  

Libertarianism (taken to its full extent) is the the absence of an organization of men who enjoy a respectable territorial monopoly on the initiation of force. (All monopolies, by the way, can only be maintained by initiated force.)

It is the ideal system, as all others institutionalize the prerogative of violence among a select few. It is also Utopian, in that human societies always appear to vary between relative individual liberty and relative collective tyranny in a sine wave.

Instead of concentrating on the Big Picture, it seems more useful to concentrate on myself. As Carl Watner puts it, improve the world by offering it one improved unit: yourself. Cultivate your own garden, instead of haranguing your neighbor about his.

Blogger Student in Blue May 22, 2015 5:36 PM  

@Paradigm
Try finding a summer job for a teenager now. It's difficult, because there are always illegal adult men willing to work for teenagers wages, so the teenagers are pushed out of the market.

Also, Boomers. But yes.

All this leaves aside the increased burden on my community that the illegals present[...] All this stuff has a price tag, and there's no way that the illegals are paying enough taxes to even remotely cover it.

Sounds like a problem with there being a ton of poor people coming in, and the government mandating that everyone showing at the ER must be taken care of despite ability to pay. Also, hospitals being hideously overpriced.

However, this situation in particular seems to be more of a problem with importing poor people, which puts a big stress on welfare systems, instead of illegal immigrants. If (and this is unlikely) there were a ton of illegal immigrants and they were all effectively middle-class-to-upper-class, there wouldn't be such a profound effect on the hospitals.

Cultural cohesion remains a point though. That's why I preempted it with "Where is the value that would be destroyed if the illegal immigrants were the same culture as the native country?"

I wasn't trying for a non-sequitur here, I was just guessing a point of weakness and pre-empting it. Is it necessarily illegal immigration which increases unemployment (not just native unemployment), or the importing of different cultures, and inflating the ranks of the poor?

Blogger Student in Blue May 22, 2015 5:41 PM  

@Danby
I appreciate the wages per capita figures, but we were talking about production, not wages.

Unless you're arguing that production = wages?

Blogger Chris Mallory May 22, 2015 5:43 PM  

"New labor doesn't require more food? New labor does not require more houses, more apartments, more rent?"

The Mexicans will live 13 to a house, splitting the rent. They will eat beans and tortillas from a communal pot. Their paychecks are sent back to Ol Mexico.
So no, they don't require much in the way of "new" spending in the economy. Add in the flood of Mexicans in the public schools, jails, and ERs and they are a net drain on our nation.

Blogger Joshua Sinistar May 22, 2015 5:47 PM  

Non aggression is the antithesis of life. Libertarians live in a delusional fantasy world like liberals. All life is struggle and politics are just warfare disguised. If you want to see the world as it really is then go to a wilderness or jungle. The only friends you have there are the ones you bring with you, and you need them all to leave alive. Nature is what an idiot calls the jungle.
Idiot in Blue is trying to sell you some softsoap from the usual suspects. Guess who he is?
If cheap chalupas is so great then why is Taco Bell and Clownburger going broke? Ross Perot was right when he said you can't be a Superpower and not make or produce anything. These cheapo Billionaires are just bankrupting themselves when they dry up the consumer pool by hiring idiots who don't have the money to buy their crap anymore.
This is the race to the bottom that ends with Hitler or Stalin. Go with Hitler because Stalin wants to work with the problems instead of eliminating them. If you don't eliminate the problems then no solutions will ever help you...

Blogger aut0x3ematthew May 22, 2015 5:48 PM  

Cail Corishev, have you considered giving subtly wrong answers?

Blogger Daniel May 22, 2015 7:02 PM  

Student In Blue, ah I see. We are using "new" labor in different ways. I should have used "southern" or some other indicator, as you are using it as "additional".

That is not what I meant. The cheap labor is assuredly NOT additional, but is displacing existing labor.

Unless employment is at 97% or more (real) you don't create additional labor by importing laborers.

Blogger Daniel May 22, 2015 7:11 PM  

Student In Blue, ah I see. We are using "new" labor in different ways. I should have used "southern" or some other indicator, as you are using it as "additional".

That is not what I meant. The cheap labor is assuredly NOT additional, but is displacing existing labor.

Unless employment is at 97% or more (real) you don't create additional labor by importing laborers.

Anonymous PhillipGeorge©2015 May 22, 2015 7:16 PM  

a footnote on the destruction of everything:

how 'liberalism' and 'feel good pluralism' destroy souls and nations. The core of the arrogance is this: "The critical details of what the person thinks, their philosophical core,, the specific images of their gods or theories on being doesn't matter, because we're "plural" - and going to do things this way anyway, our enlightened way"
Shallow lip service to inclusion is the antithesis of real caring and understanding. The left 'hate' humans, full stop. Domination cloaked in 'inclusion' and 'tolerance'. Diabolically destruction to marriages, families, churches and nations, The winners out of this are armies and banks. The results are a thousand schisms, not understanding in the least. And everything falling apart. What people really think, the details matter. Wall papering over differences with a veneer of 'inclusion' is to deny the core of what human being is. The reason you hate it, is because it is the evidence of being hated.

Anonymous BGS May 22, 2015 8:07 PM  

If there is any connection at all between IQ & DNA importing the stupidest people is like deploying a bio weapon on yourself. At least with Cuba it was the right side of the bell curve that fled.

Go with Hitler because Stalin wants to work with the problems instead of eliminating them

Under Hitler if you got arrested for being gay all you had to do was screw a female prisoner that they provided and you could go free and clear. That info came from gays not the skin lampshade people.

Anonymous Stilicho May 22, 2015 8:09 PM  

No, it isn't a problem with handouts its a problem with immigrants not producing enough to support themselves. Your entire hypo is just one unsupported assumption after another. Now, you want to fundamentally change my country, prove your hypo or gyro.

Anonymous Stilicho May 22, 2015 8:11 PM  

Gtfo. I hate autocorrect.

Anonymous Will Best May 22, 2015 8:34 PM  

Sounds like a problem with there being a ton of poor people coming in, and the government mandating that everyone showing at the ER must be taken care of despite ability to pay

And this is where libertarians become pro-slavery. Because in a libertarian society you either die on the Hospital's curb, or you agree to become the hospital's serf in order to pay off the medical debt. The Hospital probably doesn't have a lot of use for whatever it is you do, so they sell you to somebody who does.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents May 22, 2015 8:42 PM  

Student in blue
Sounds like a problem with there being a ton of poor people coming in, and the government mandating that everyone showing at the ER must be taken care of despite ability to pay. Also, hospitals being hideously overpriced.

Yeah, so?

However, this situation in particular seems to be more of a problem with importing poor people, which puts a big stress on welfare systems, instead of illegal immigrants.

A difference that is no difference is not a difference. If you are going to argue for open borders, those most likely to come are the ones who aren't doing well at home. Currently we have de facto open borders in combination with a number of foreign governments such as Mexico that actively encourage their citizens to illegally enter the US. Therefore your attempt to separate "immigration" and "illegal immigration" is moot, although it may still convince dunderheads like Karl Rove that you have anything resembling a logical point.


If (and this is unlikely) there were a ton of illegal immigrants and they were all effectively middle-class-to-upper-class, there wouldn't be such a profound effect on the hospitals.

……facepalm…..

Shirley, you are not serious with this?

Cultural cohesion remains a point though. That's why I preempted it with "Where is the value that would be destroyed if the illegal immigrants were the same culture as the native country?"

Why didn't you preempt it with "Where is the value that would be destroyed if the illegal immigrants were all Unicorns from My LIttle Pony's rainbow", that would be equally likely?

I wasn't trying for a non-sequitur here, I was just guessing a point of weakness and pre-empting it. Is it necessarily illegal immigration which increases unemployment (not just native unemployment), or the importing of different cultures, and inflating the ranks of the poor?

Demographics, the fact that 1850 is long past, the failure of geographical magic thinking, importation of illiterate poor people into an uncontrolled welfare state, stoking tribalism, replacing the native population deliberately….do I have to go on, really?

Blogger Chris Mallory May 22, 2015 9:31 PM  

"Demographics, the fact that 1850 is long past, "

We should not have let in any of the groups that started flooding our shores in the 1840s and all points in time there after. Should have finished the job on Vox's kin as well. Where were the small pox blankets when we needed them?

Blogger Nate May 22, 2015 9:39 PM  

Hey guys... ATF Show starts in 30 minutes... 9cst.

http://tobtr.com/s/7637499

Dread Ilk radio.

Yall come!

Anonymous BigGaySteve May 22, 2015 9:55 PM  

"Where were the small pox blankets when we needed them?"

Small pox had a 30% mortality rate for white people. It would be pretty stupid to spread it on purpose. Although those cheering for a CME would probably have a similar rate for whites that have not done specific preps but live rural.

Anonymous Deeply Concerned May 22, 2015 10:35 PM  

Hey guys... ATF Show starts in 30 minutes... 9cst.


For some reason I could not get the link to play, but I did see the phrase:

" Guns, Smokes, Bouron, Gold and women bringing us sandwiches."

Is Bouron a new element? Guns, Smokes, Gold, and Sandwiches are all elements, but I have not heard of Bouron, unless you spelled it wrong.
Its like, BORON, eh. Moron with a" B."

I hate to be pedantic, but I am Deeply Concerned




Anonymous BGS May 22, 2015 11:07 PM  

Is the ATF going to be a regular thing it looks like it took a year off. Was that Nate & David hosting?

Blogger kh123 May 22, 2015 11:33 PM  

"Gtfo. I hate autocorrect."

No no, what you had worked. "If you want to fundamentally change the country, either prove that the helots can hold their own, or go Greek."

You can load the last bit with whatever baggage works.

Blogger Student in Blue May 22, 2015 11:46 PM  

@Paradigm
Yeah, so?
Left unsaid was the "...instead of necessarily being illegal immigration"

A difference that is no difference is not a difference. If you are going to argue for open borders, those most likely to come are the ones who aren't doing well at home. Currently we have de facto open borders in combination with a number of foreign governments such as Mexico that actively encourage their citizens to illegally enter the US. Therefore your attempt to separate "immigration" and "illegal immigration" is moot, although it may still convince dunderheads like Karl Rove that you have anything resembling a logical point.

Well then it's a good thing that
A) I wasn't arguing for open borders
and
B) I wasn't attempting to separate immigration and illegal immigration

Shirley, you are not serious with this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A5t5_O8hdA

Why not answer the question?

Why didn't you preempt it with "Where is the value that would be destroyed if the illegal immigrants were all Unicorns from My LIttle Pony's rainbow", that would be equally likely?

I didn't preempt it with that, because I thought you'd be a grown-up about this.

If you want to devolve into snark and rhetoric, feel free. Just remember that you're the one who dropped it there.

Demographics, the fact that 1850 is long past, the failure of geographical magic thinking, importation of illiterate poor people into an uncontrolled welfare state, stoking tribalism, replacing the native population deliberately….do I have to go on, really?

And what are these supposed to be in response to? The scope of the argument I made was illegal immigration and unemployment - not even illegal immigration in the US, or illegal immigration in the past.

You're making vague noises like I'm arguing that illegal immigration is a good thing. Even if I believed that (and I don't), you're trying to "disprove" my point by attacking a facet of the subject that's not being discussed.

It's like if I wanted to argue that swamps don't naturally produce gremlins that wish to take over the world, and your rebuttal was "Swamps smell bad. Need I go on?"

Anonymous hausfrau May 22, 2015 11:47 PM  

"Not just economists. For over 20 years I've been arguing with libertarians about open borders, and it has always been amazing to me that the same people who will discuss the price of gold or natural gas under the law of supply and demand can't see that the same law applies to human expertise. This is why any true libertarian state would exist only for a short time, because its success would be magnetic to non-libertarians, who would overrun it in short order"

Not long ago I was in an online argument with a atheist Jew, anarchist libertarian. You can always tell when a libertarian converts over from the far left. Underneath their political positions lies the firm belief that all people can be perfected by their environment, that they are not inherently different in anything but superficial characteristics, that they are not inherently sinful. Multiculti equalism is a hard conviction to shake.
He argued the myth of collective ownership, that there is no such thing as the citizens collectively owning a nation therefore they have no right to bar anyone from entering it. When I pointed out that it didn't matter at all what he believed, that he is importing communists that will sink any chance of a libertarian correction in the US, that the international Marxists also supported open-borders for that reason....then he admits that he knows open immigration will collapse the system and he firmly believes that a freer American will form out of that crash in the same manner as the Soviet Union. Honestly, I'm not sure how to counter that argument except that the US is certainly not the USSR demographically and that socialism and corporate fascism will not be blamed for the crash. Capitalism and free markets will be the scape goat and that open the gates to the barbarians will only make the crash bloodier than it otherwise would have been. It is interesting that when it comes down to it, that particular libertarian knows that immigration=instability and economic pressure.

Blogger Student in Blue May 23, 2015 12:08 AM  

@Stilicho
No, it isn't a problem with handouts its a problem with immigrants not producing enough to support themselves.

To paraphrase then, keep the government programs, they're a-okay?

Your entire hypo is just one unsupported assumption after another.

I'm pretty sure it's been nothing but question after another, sometimes rhetorical, sometimes serious. But if you want to throw around the "unsupported" claim, how much of what you said has been supported by hard numbers?

Now, you want to fundamentally change my country, prove your hypo or gyro.
I haven't said anything about wanting to change anything. Stop reading too deeply into a freaking Devil's Advocate position.

Also, how does one "prove" a hypothetical?

Blogger Student in Blue May 23, 2015 12:19 AM  

@Daniel
That is not what I meant. The cheap labor is assuredly NOT additional, but is displacing existing labor.
I'm understanding your distinctions now. Am I right in guessing that you're approaching this from the perspective of a single job's market? I was trying to approach it from every job's market - and in that way, it's a little harder for me to see how exactly those extra workers would be displaced, unless they get displaced right into having zero work.

And then again it brings up the question of "what about additional sources of demand being created by the new bodies?"

I've yet to come across a good argument in this thread that would dispel the fanciful thought that "just take away government handout!" would fix all of it, and then somehow illegal immigration would not impact unemployment.

Unless employment is at 97% or more (real) you don't create additional labor by importing laborers.
...because the original labor will basically get displaced and have to find a different career, am I understanding this right?

Blogger aut0x3ematthew May 23, 2015 12:21 AM  

Okay, who else is reading seveneves right now? And just figured out who JBF is?

Blogger aut0x3ematthew May 23, 2015 12:56 AM  

It appears to be a book about what happens when you put women in charge.

Blogger aut0x3ematthew May 23, 2015 1:08 AM  

Who use cudgel made of lengths of pipe, instead of programming their robots to kill their enemies.

Blogger Daniel May 23, 2015 1:37 AM  

Not quite, Student. Because there will be no jobs created by the shift. Across all sectors.

Migrant workers do not move to create a new job, they come to find a job that has been created by someone else. Unemployment means that the supply of jobs is smaller than the supply of workers.

Adding more labor to that only lowers the cost of labor, it doesn't magically create new jobs.

Imagine a room filled with actors auditioning for a role. Now bring in 10 more actors. Is the director going to create new roles in the show to accommodate the increased supply of talent...or did all the people in the room just watch their chances at landing the role drop?

Anonymous Jack Amok May 23, 2015 1:40 AM  

That doesn't make it a net positive though. wealth is created by production.

Yes, and standard of living is essentially Total Productivity / Population. Even if the immigrant workers are net producers but are less productive that the native born the average standard of living is going down. It's even worse if (as several of us believe) they are not actually net positive producers, but rather consume more than they produce.

Plus, the overall level of trust in society is going down as well, and a high-trust society is a big key to prosperity. As trust erodes, productivity sinks even farther.

No, it isn't a problem with handouts its a problem with immigrants not producing enough to support themselves.

If anyone doubts what Stilicho says, ask yourself how it could be that the least productive members of a country that is an economic basket case could be expected to move here and improve our overall economic performance. Of course someone will say it's because in the old country they have terrible leaders who hamper things. Well, okay, let's go with the "leaders matter" theory. Say, since the mid-60's when we've had rampant immigration, would you say our leaders (in politics and business) have been getting better, or worse? It couldn't possibly be that people actually have an impact on who makes it as leaders can it?

Anonymous rho May 23, 2015 2:19 AM  

I've used "Libertarian" to describe myself because A) it's the fastest way to show the position of my politics as outside the two major parties, and B) it brings all political discussion to a screeching halt, because nobody wants to argue with a 'spergy Libertarian. Time is money, save that dolla dolla bill y'all.

I think of small-L "libertarian" as a descriptor of a political ideal to strive for, but never reaching. We're not going to turn the highway/Interstate system into a series of toll roads funded with a totally anonymous wireless micropayment system, so arguing for it is a waste of time. But trying to reach a point where there is less government and more freedom is worthwhile.

That said, if one wanted to black knight illegal immigration, the cornucopia of government regulations and requirements offer a wide variety of opportunities to push illegal immigrants out of the workforce. For example, the latest ASHRAE standards call for daylight harvesting for lighting control, and powering down electrical sockets during off-hours. This has increased the complexity of installing, wiring and provisioning of commercial buildings far beyond the 89 IQ illegal immigrant fresh off the lot of the Home Depot.

If you want to discourage low-IQ, non-native participation, institute government regulations that are so onerous only native-speaking, higher IQs can perform them. If pressured, you can honestly say it's because you're concerned about climate change.

Blogger Thordaddy May 23, 2015 3:23 AM  

Just the phenomenon of mass migration alone tells us that the migger collective benefits in the whole. Beneath all the political analysis is an actual trilateral alliance between various radical autonomists seeking maximum autonomy. Open borders = radical autonomy. But ultimately, there needs to be a "thing" that does not move... A "thing" lacking all autonomy. A "thing" paralyzed so as to allow "us" to bear witness to the absolute autonomy of all those around said "thing." That is you, white man. YOU are the "thing."

Blogger Eric May 23, 2015 3:44 AM  

Why aren't blacks outraged about immigrant workers? They must be losing jobs at a faster clip than anyone else.

I used to wonder about this too. What it boils down to is the welfare state puts a floor on the kinds of jobs people are willing to accept. If there were no illegals blacks still wouldn't take the low end jobs because those jobs don't really improve their circumstances over the government safety hammock.

So they don't care if the Mexicans take all the fast food and janitorial jobs, even if that means black unemployment is 100%. They want government jobs (or Acorn-type quango jobs), and if those aren't available they're perfectly happy drinking beer all day on Shaniqua's couch.

Anonymous Jack Amok May 23, 2015 4:11 AM  

If you want to discourage low-IQ, non-native participation, institute government regulations that are so onerous only native-speaking, higher IQs can perform them.

Immigrants ignore the laws and, as BGS pointed out, employers will hire them because they ignore the laws, which are too damned expensive for the employers to comply with.

Over-regulation is a huge benefit to half-savages because they're the only ones who can accomplish anything when the civilized people are tied down in red tape.

Anonymous Stilicho May 23, 2015 4:24 AM  

I know, let's replace all American workers with Mexicans so that the Americans can then sell food and rent apartments to the Mexicans! Full employment! We can then replace the mexican workers with Chinese, the Mexicans rent apartments and sell food to the Chinese, the Americans rent apartments and sell food to Mexicans... Permanent prosperity for all... Then we replace the Chinese with Indonesians... Winning!

Anonymous rho May 23, 2015 4:39 AM  

Immigrants ignore the laws and, as BGS pointed out, employers will hire them because they ignore the laws, which are too damned expensive for the employers to comply with.

Over-regulation is a huge benefit to half-savages because they're the only ones who can accomplish anything when the civilized people are tied down in red tape.


Regulations still apply. So apply them.

Or bitch and moan, it's your choice.

Blogger Cail Corishev May 23, 2015 4:42 AM  

Permanent prosperity for all... Then we replace the Chinese with Indonesians... Winning!

If we can just find cheap enough workers somewhere, all the stuff we want will be free!

Anonymous Stilicho May 23, 2015 4:46 AM  

Rho, isn't that the French model?

Blogger ChicagoRefugee May 23, 2015 5:35 AM  

As Tom Hayden, former California congress critter and the ex-Mr. Jane Fonda, said upon the occasion of their son's marriage to a black woman: "another step in a long-term goal of mine - the peaceful, non-violent, disappearance of the white race."

Does anyone think he was the only New Left denizen nurturing that goal for the last 40+ years? At this point I can only observe that any nation or race dim enough to allow freakin' Bill Ayers to train its teachers has probably earned the collective Darwin award that seems to be in the offing. Most people would rather - quite literally! - condemn their grandchildren to perdition than appear racist.

May God have mercy upon our souls.

Blogger Eric May 23, 2015 6:21 AM  

Regulations still apply. So apply them.

I don't know if you've been keeping up with current events, but the last people upon whom regulations will be applied is illegals.

Blogger The Anti-Gnostic May 23, 2015 9:11 AM  

Democracy, diversity, liberty: pick any two.

Why do people keep mangling this? Here's the proper formulation:

Diversity, liberty or equality; choose one.

Blogger HickoryHammer #0211 May 23, 2015 9:12 AM  

Hey, how is the illegal immigrant invasion even going to survive if the banksters get their way and ban cash?

Blogger bw May 23, 2015 9:51 AM  

The Leveling

Anonymous bgs May 23, 2015 10:45 AM  

Hey, how is the illegal immigrant invasion even going to survive if the banksters get their way and ban cash?

They might bring back Company stores, think of it as a bodega in the workplace

Anonymous Jack Amok May 23, 2015 1:17 PM  

Regulations still apply. So apply them.

That requires becoming one of the Regulators. Or of recapturing the government that appoints them. But if you do that, why not just end immigration instead.

Black Knighting if a great concept, but it's not universally applicable. Most of the regulations that would apply are not really open to freelance enforcement like sexual harassment, discrimination or environmental laws.

Or bitch and moan, it's your choice.

I'm not bitching and moaning, I'm saying that pursuing increased regulation is simply tilting at windmills and distracting yourself from the real solution. Immigration is the problem, not lack of enforcement of an already overgrown regulatory system. In fact, that will probably backfire.

Hell, just look what happened when Hasbro was caught importing lead-laced toys from China (a flavor of immigration, where we just import the products of the labor instead of the laborers themselves). New regulations came out that hurt American-based toy makers far worse than Hasbro.

People are what matter, not by laws. We won't solve any of our problems by changing the by laws without changing the people running the government. Change the people. Yes, it's harder, but it's the only thing that works.

Blogger John S May 23, 2015 2:48 PM  

Okay, who else is reading seveneves right now? And just figured out who JBF is?

I'm about halfway through the audiobook. You mean space-Hillary? This is a pretty damn good book so far. I hope Vox does a review.

I'm getting a kick out of Mary Robinette Kowal narrating a story where the main villain (so far) is an entitled, narcissistic woman who also appears to be a sociopath!

Blogger John S May 23, 2015 3:27 PM  

Okay, who else is reading seveneves right now? And just figured out who JBF is?

I'm about halfway through the audiobook. You mean space-Hillary? This is a pretty damn good book so far. I hope Vox does a review.

I'm getting a kick out of Mary Robinette Kowal narrating a story where the main villain (so far) is an entitled, narcissistic woman who also appears to be a sociopath!

Blogger John S May 23, 2015 3:27 PM  

Okay, who else is reading seveneves right now? And just figured out who JBF is?

I'm about halfway through the audiobook. You mean space-Hillary? This is a pretty damn good book so far. I hope Vox does a review.

I'm getting a kick out of Mary Robinette Kowal narrating a story where the main villain (so far) is an entitled, narcissistic woman who also appears to be a sociopath!

Blogger Student in Blue May 23, 2015 4:02 PM  

@Daniel
Not quite, Student. Because there will be no jobs created by the shift. Across all sectors.

No jobs, across all sectors? So even though it is of almost zero value to society, the government job to distribute all the free food and free money to all the illegal immigrants suddenly doesn't exist? Any extra truckers that need to get hired to move the free food to the illegal immigrants don't technically have a job?

Those are jobs offhandedly created by this wealth shift, and the hypothetical question poses that these kinds of jobs are sufficient to make up for all the displaced labor.

Migrant workers do not move to create a new job, they come to find a job that has been created by someone else. Unemployment means that the supply of jobs is smaller than the supply of workers.

Agreed. Like I mentioned earlier however, I believe you're approaching this from the perspective of a single job's market, rather than the whole of a nation's economy.

This approach can be handwaved off by claiming that jobs are created elsewhere to accommodate (i.e., food/water/housing/schooling/etc) for the masses of illegal immigrants.

Adding more labor to that only lowers the cost of labor, it doesn't magically create new jobs.

...within that field.

Imagine a room filled with actors auditioning for a role. Now bring in 10 more actors. Is the director going to create new roles in the show to accommodate the increased supply of talent...or did all the people in the room just watch their chances at landing the role drop?

Of course the director is not going to create new roles, unless they're a public school teacher, in which case they're screwed.

Now, due to these influx of actors, several coffee shops spring up to tap this market and start hiring them...

Anonymous Stilicho May 24, 2015 4:18 AM  

Anti gnostic, you're never going to get equality. You've been here long enough to know that. Pay attention.

Anonymous Stilicho May 24, 2015 4:27 AM  

SIB, never go full Libertardian. It smells up the place. Fifty unemployed actors working as baristas to serve coffee to the two who got roles? Please, they're already getting coffee from the existing shop across the street that employs Juan Valdez.

By the way, who's going to replace the Indonesians? Guatemalans? Nigerians?

Blogger The Anti-Gnostic May 24, 2015 7:46 AM  

@Stilicho:

I know. Read the phrase carefully and repeatedly until its full meaning sinks into that marshmallow fluff inside your cranium.

Anonymous Stilicho May 25, 2015 5:12 AM  

Boy, you sure told me! I did what you suggested and reached the inescapable conclusion that your head is so far up your ass that you are smelling your own farts before they form.

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