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Tuesday, May 19, 2015

King Log or King Stork?

The only question is who will be king? Chris Hensley usefully summarizes the core issue underlying the conflict in science fiction at File 770:
It is helpful to understand the context in which the Puppies were started. There has been a debate going on for a number of years at this point, predating the Puppies and one which they are involved in like or not, about what, and who, we actually should accept and tolerate within the community. There has been a growing sentiment that maybe not everybody should be welcomed with open arms, maybe some people should be excluded.

I could spin it to sound more palatable, but it is a grave and terrible thing and as someone who supports sometimes excluding people for their actions it would be dishonest for me to do so. Fandom has had a tradition of not excluding anybody for any reason, including some pretty horrendous behavior up to and including sexual harassment and assault. This has finally come back to bite the community in the posterior, as well it should. A lot of this push back has been from the left-leaning end of fandom, and good for them, which has flavored both the community’s response and the reaction to that response. A lot of this is working how the details of what is, and is not, acceptable in what spaces.

One of the most heated debates, and the one the Puppies tapped into, is when speech should be excluded and when people can be excluded for their speech. The community traditionally leaned towards “never”, but the consensus has moved on that.
The moment that the SJWs in the science fiction community decided they could exclude individuals from it (and whether the SFWA expulsion was technically real or not is irrelevant in this regard), that meant the open community concept was dead. The principle was established. Now we can exclude Eskimos, people with big noses, people with little noses, people who look funny, or people who smell bad; in short, we can openly exclude anyone we have the power and the desire to exclude.

There is no longer free speech in science fiction. There is no longer freedom of expression or thought. It is now a simple ideological power game and we are ready to play that game with extreme prejudice. There is no need for discourse. There is no need for dialogue, for compromise, or negotiations. There is nothing to discuss.

They laid out the new rules. They laid out the new consensus. We not only accept them, we're going to use make far more ruthless use of them than they ever imagined. Once we were content to let the twisted little moral freaks do and think and say what they wanted, but now they have claimed the right to tell US what to do and think and say we're not going to tolerate them anymore. We are the sons of the Crusades and the daughters of the Inquisitions. This is a game we know how to win.

Remember, they didn't exclude rapists. They didn't exclude child molesters. They didn't exclude Communists. They didn't exclude monsters. They only excluded those with whom they ideologically disagreed. CMM observed:
I was reading the discussion from a 1960s fanzine which contained the discussion of whether Worldcon should ban the man who later became her husband (and still later died in prison after being convicted of child molestation).

In their attempts to keep up their ideal that everyone is welcome in fandom, the fans doing the discussing go to amazing lengths to deny that the guy is a problem and as they do so they reveal behavior they and people known to them have personally witnessed that made my hair stand on end, including groping the children of mutual friends in front of the friends and other guests at their house.
Remember, the science fiction community was absolutely fine with open child molesting. They still defend and honor child molesters and the sexually aberrant, even as they mock and exclude their ideological opponents. That is the sickness of the community over which the Evil Legion of Evil will methodically march. And speaking of the long march, now that the Hugo Packets are out, I should have my Totally Personal List Of Merest Voting Inclinations That Absolutely No One, Not Even The Vilest of Minions, Has To Follow To The Letter ready in about two weeks. I trust that description should suffice to keep everyone who has been whining about slates and bloc votes satisfied.

Mike Glyer adds:
It’s possible for people to exclude themselves from community with others they disapprove, but there seems to be no literal way of excluding anyone from fandom, which is why it has that misunderstood reputation for unlimited tolerance. I remember the time I passed Walter Breen in the aisle of a con huckster room, at first being astonished, then wondering “Should I tell someone?” Then, “Tell them what? They already know, he’s wearing membership badge.”
He's absolutely right. It's possible for a large group of people to exclude themselves from community with others they disapprove. All that we're initially sorting out right now is who is on the Blue SF side and who is on the Pink SF side. Which, of course, is why many of those on the latter side are suddenly rushing to deny that there are two sides; they know theirs is much smaller. And they know we aim to misbehave.

UPDATE: This sums up our position nicely.
I did ask some pro-puppies that very question about how much they want. The answers I’ve gotten in emails have been very much along the lines of “Delenda Est”.
The Legion marches.

Labels: ,

86 Comments:

Anonymous Michael Maier May 19, 2015 12:42 PM  

I look forward to reading your Personal List. For absolutely no reason at all.

#3

Anonymous Knarf May 19, 2015 12:45 PM  

> or people who smell bad;

Oh no. There goes 90% of the attendance at Worldcon. And *all* of Furry Fandom!

Blogger Bobo #117 May 19, 2015 12:47 PM  

"You can have SF back when you pry it from our cold dead fingers!!"

"We find your conditions acceptable..."

Anonymous hygate May 19, 2015 12:48 PM  

"There is no longer free speech in science fiction. There is no longer freedom of expression or thought. It is now a simple ideological power game and we are ready to play that game with extreme prejudice. There is no need for discourse. There is no need for dialogue, for compromise, or negotiations. There is nothing to discuss."

This is pretty much the state of the US right now as well. And the rabbits are either at your feet or at your throat.

Anonymous pseudotsuga May 19, 2015 12:53 PM  

The first episode of Firefly that aired, "The Train Job," contained a scene near the end where Captain Reynolds confronts "Crow," one of the enforcer thugs working for Neska, the crime boss who hired Reynolds and his crew to rob the train of valuable drugs. Reynolds tells Crow that he has changed his mind about the theft, and that he is giving Neska's money back to him.
Crow refuses the offer and tells Reynolds that he will hunt him down and kill him, and Reynold's response is, after a moment of reflection, to exclaim "Darn," and then to kick Crow into the spaceship's engine intake, which (naturally) kills Crow.
Many of the SJW crowd are like Crow--brutish enforcers, not open to negotiation or compromise (although they demand these things of others.) The best response is to metaphorically kick them into the engine intake.

We aim to misbehave, indeed, and to keep flying.

(I know I run the risk of cherry-picking quotes, where idiots from the Alliance/SJW crowd will howl about death threats and point to the above, but MPAI after all.)

Anonymous BigGaySteve May 19, 2015 12:55 PM  

Now we can exclude Eskimos, .... who smell bad

Does that include authors like GRRM, or will exceptions be made?

Blogger Jim May 19, 2015 12:55 PM  

Fandom has had a tradition of not excluding anybody for any reason, including some pretty horrendous behavior up to and including sexual harassment and assault. This has finally come back to bite the community in the posterior, as well it should.

Umm... Hensley's rather confused here. It's not the past failure to exclude that's biting the community in the ass. It's the current exclusion--and the brazen political nature of that exclusion--that is shredding the pink sub-community's tail into ichor-oozing ribbons.

His stance that people who engage in horrible acts has never been part of the debate. None of the major camps have endorsed that. There's only been the Correia's and Torgersen's who want inclusiveness, the SJWs who want their progressive Von Neumann machines to reduce the genre to grey goo, and now the Rabids, who see that the Von Neumann machines have a strange resemblance to ganders, and grey goo makes a suitably good sauce for them. Hensley's stated view is late to the party.

Blogger Stilicho #0066 May 19, 2015 12:58 PM  

And the rabbits are either at your feet or at your throat.

nah, that's the Hun. Rabbits are either in the pot, or they're destroying your garden.

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus May 19, 2015 1:01 PM  

Excluding people is bad - except when it's the people we think should be excluded.

/SJW

Blogger SirThermite May 19, 2015 1:05 PM  

The SJW gatekeepers' posturing that they've never been against restricting speech is about as contemptible as a Muslim nation claiming they've never been against freedom of religious expression. It's easy to feign tolerance after you've pushed everyone else out, but now that we're taking back what was ours their masks are coming off.

Looking forward to the list too...for "entertainment purposes only" of course.

#0025

Blogger Giraffe May 19, 2015 1:07 PM  

Totally Personal List Of Merest Voting Inclinations That Absolutely No One, Not Even The Vilest of Minions, Has To Follow To The Letter

TPLOMVITANONETVOMHTFTTL!!!!!!

Blogger Mr.MantraMan May 19, 2015 1:07 PM  

What are SJW strategic strong points and how can they be reduced?

Blogger Chiva May 19, 2015 1:08 PM  

@Bobo. Nice 'Men In Black' reference.

"including groping the children of mutual friends in front of the friends and other guests at their house."
That makes me sick to my stomach. Cowards.

Blogger JDC May 19, 2015 1:11 PM  

(I know I run the risk of cherry-picking quotes, where idiots from the Alliance/SJW crowd will howl about death threats and point to the above, but MPAI after all.)

I've always appreciated this quote from the K. Costner movie Wyatt Earp:

But there are plenty of men
who don't care about the law.
Men who'll take part in all kinds of
viciousness and don't care who gets hurt.
ln fact, the more they get hurt, the better.
When you find yourself in a fight
with such viciousness...
hit first if you can.
And when you do hit, hit to kill.

Anonymous Peter Pan May 19, 2015 1:12 PM  

Totally Personal List Of Merest Voting Inclinations That Absolutely No One, Not Even The Vilest of Minions, Has To Follow To The Letter

TPLoMVItANONETVoMHtFttL.

Even the acronym is a mouthful.

Anonymous BigGaySteve May 19, 2015 1:14 PM  

What are SJW strategic strong points and how can they be reduced?

Lots of unwitting minions willing to follow a script. My helicopter story in the Excluded post (May 18, 2015 7:03 PM )shows they have no idea what is around them or any curiosity at all. The lesbian gatekeeper was really upset people could avoid her gate to the point of not knowing even it was there.

Blogger J Van Stry May 19, 2015 1:25 PM  

I have friends who were abused as children. It had a huge and VERY negative impact on the rest of their lives. It is something they will always have to deal with.
That the SciFi community knew about it, and did NOTHING, pisses me off to no end. If I had ever witnessed some of the behavior that was excused there, I'd probably still be in jail for what I did to offender.

And this is why I have no problem with what Vox is doing, that abusers were given a pass and yet Vox got thrown out for stupid ideological reasons? Yeah, that's not just wrong, it's evil. SFWA will censor speech, while turning a blind eye to the most horrendous of all crimes.

Anonymous ZhukovG May 19, 2015 1:31 PM  

In the SJWs twisted little nihilistic minds, a dog is a sheep is a child is a consenting adult.

Blogger Aeoli Pera May 19, 2015 1:33 PM  

>All that we're initially sorting out right now is who is on the Blue SF side and who is on the Pink SF side. Which, of course, is why many of those on the latter side are suddenly rushing to deny that there are two sides; they know theirs is much smaller.

Is anyone keeping a naughty list? Many pinks are going to try changing shirts.

Blogger Aeoli Pera May 19, 2015 1:36 PM  

>nah, that's the Hun. Rabbits are either in the pot, or they're destroying your garden.

FTW.

>TPLoMVItANONETVoMHtFttL

Not all TPLoMVItANONETVoMHtFttL are like Vox's, so NATPLoMVItANONETVoMHtFttLALT.

Blogger FALPhil May 19, 2015 1:45 PM  

Somebody needs to explain the “Delenda Est” reference to me. I understand the "Carthage must be destroyed" translation. Is Glyer saying that pro-Puppies want to destroy SF, Hugos, WorldCon or what?

OpenID mattse001 May 19, 2015 1:59 PM  

Somebody needs to explain the “Delenda Est” reference to me. I understand the "Carthage must be destroyed" translation. Is Glyer saying that pro-Puppies want to destroy SF, Hugos, WorldCon or what?

I would imagine they are referring to the pinkshirts. To destroy SF would be counterproductive.

OpenID mattse001 May 19, 2015 2:01 PM  

We're not destroying the village to save it. That's nonsense.
We're destroying the bad half of the village to save the good half.

Anonymous Quartermaster May 19, 2015 2:04 PM  

Either the Pink Shirts, or their influence and power. If that means burning down the Hugos, I'd say go for it.

Anonymous Nathan May 19, 2015 2:17 PM  

I'm actually wondering, based on Glyer's rather even-handed coverage, when the SJWs are going to go after him for being insufficiently (fill in the blank here).

As for the idiots begging to purge people, notice that they never once stop to consider that the powers they want to use can also be used against them.

Blogger Alexander May 19, 2015 2:27 PM  

Well yes - in the utopia future, they are always commissars, never peasants and/or unrecognizable body bits stinking up the sides of the road.

I know a couple who inherited an antebellum home in the late 20s, who like to hold dinner parties where they discuss the merits of communism and what an intelligent and fine fellow Marx was.

Frankly, if my side is doomed, I'd ask only to live long enough inside to the gulag to watch the intelligentsia left thrown in with me.

Blogger Alexander May 19, 2015 2:28 PM  

in their late 20s... That's quite different from claiming I have an anecdote to share about my wild times nearly a century ago.

Blogger Pinakeli May 19, 2015 2:28 PM  

I plan to read everything and vote based on my own opinion.

Unless my Minion Programming takes over when the list comes out.

Anonymous Soga May 19, 2015 2:35 PM  

B-b-but... this is triggering me! I identify as Minion-kin. My pronoun is #0263. I will only have sex with prime numbered minions. Thus, it must be made federal law that we all vote by Vox's list, lest I be offended.

You shitlords.

Blogger Alexander May 19, 2015 2:37 PM  

#0263

That triggers me. I feel that you are othering me as an unprime. By declaring you will not sleep with me, you have undermined my self-esteem and triggered my overlord issues. I will probably have to eat an entire pint of Ben and Jerry to overcome this level of self-hatred you have forced upon me.

Yes, 'forced upon me'. You word raped me, you monster.

- #0010

Blogger VFM #0209* May 19, 2015 2:47 PM  

Yo, #0263 and #0010, chill. The Mistress Of The Whip just looked this way and she appears to be triggered.

Blogger FALPhil May 19, 2015 2:50 PM  

As for the idiots begging to purge people, notice that they never once stop to consider that the powers they want to use can also be used against them.

Nah, Democrats do this all the time, and Republicans never repay in kind, so maybe they are not such idiots, they just expect us to act like Republicans. Heh. They are going to be surprised.

Blogger Alexander May 19, 2015 2:57 PM  

The Mistress Of The Whip just looked this way and she appears to be triggered.

Yeah, but one thing she and Sansa Stark have in common is that actually, they like it that way.

Blogger bob k. mando May 19, 2015 2:59 PM  

mattse001 May 19, 2015 1:59 PM
I would imagine they are referring to the pinkshirts. To destroy SF would be counterproductive.



Science Fiction, per se, is an abstract concept, an artificial marketing delimitation in the larger set of 'Fiction'. so it's rather absurd to talk about 'destroying it'.

otoh, i've got no problem destroying the kind of sick fucks who issue con badges to a pervert like Breen *AFTER* he has been convicted of pedophilia.

also, considering that Marion Zimmer Bradley married him knowing who he was
AND
edited his 1964 book on pederasty

i'm also perfectly fine with destroying whatever legacy she's supposed to have.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_H._Breen#Writings

Anonymous patrick kelly May 19, 2015 3:22 PM  

" they just expect us to act like Republicans. Heh. They are going to be surprised."

Heh..yeah, they don't have much experience with actual opposition....

Blogger Nate May 19, 2015 4:01 PM  

Fire Water Burn.

Blogger darkdoc May 19, 2015 4:02 PM  

They always lie.

They never accept any responsibilty, are never to be accountable, for their actions.

Now is the time to grow up and realize they have been living (and will die in) a fantasy.

Anonymous VFM.0157 aka Forrest Bishop May 19, 2015 4:03 PM  

The SFWA needs a well-publicized mission statement to articulate its unwritten rules and "values" (their word). Seems to me they are ripe for a multi-party tort lawsuit revolving around deceptive trade practices. It's confusing to read their PR in contrast with the kind of works they promote. By clarifying their "tolerance" (their word) for child molesters, etc. they can avoid the appearance of bad faith.

Perhaps we should draft that mission statement for them?

Ceterum, Nate, censeo conceptus electricum fluunt in filum intelligo oportet destrui.

Anonymous Peter Pan May 19, 2015 4:04 PM  

Not all TPLoMVItANONETVoMHtFttL are like Vox's, so NATPLoMVItANONETVoMHtFttLALT.

From AlphaGame (almost):

NATPLOMVITANONETVOMHTFTTLALT and You

From Urban Dictionary (pending):

NATPLOMVITANONETVOMHTFTTLALT: acronym for 'not all Totally Personal Lists Of Merest Voting Inclinations That Absolutely No One, Not Even The Vilest of Minions, Has To Follow To The Letter are like that.'
Repeated endlessly by Social Justice Warriors to Sad/Rabid Puppies in hopes that if Puppy supporters hear NATPLOMVITANONETVOMHTFTTLALT frequently enough, they'll believe it.

The reality is that all Totally Personal Lists Of Merest Voting Inclinations That Absolutely No One, Not Even The Vilest of Minions, Has To Follow To The Letter ARE like that (free to follow or disregard).


The acronym NATPLOMVITANONETVOMHTFTTLALT has its origin in the belief that Puppy supporters as a collective are complicit in the implementation of injustices against Fandom during the last two-three years. As you can see from the more commonly used meaning above, it's come to signify the degenerate nature of all Totally Personal Lists Of Merest Voting Inclinations That Absolutely No One, Not Even The Vilest of Minions, Has To Follow To The Letter, on all fronts.
If you are interested in the Hugos strictly to get awards onto your shelf, you may find that subscribing to this broader meaning does not interfere with your objectives. Indeed, it may inure you to the "collateral damage" that may occur if a Totally Personal Lists Of Merest Voting Inclinations That Absolutely No One, Not Even The Vilest of Minions, Has To Follow To The Letter catches for you.
As a blogger who writes about SFF, and appreciates the potential of the TPLOMVITANONETVOMHTFTTL for its ability to increase the pool of decent nominations, I would point out that swallowing this particularly bitter pill will disqualify all Hugo nominations as unworthy of your love and trust. If your goal is to find a partner worthy of you, then you must be disciplined about evaluating nominations for character.
There are some ways in which all TPLOMVITANONETVOMHTFTTL are the same, i.e. "like that":
1. All TPLOMVITANONETVOMHTFTTL share a literary imperative to nominate, with complementary strategies for short- and long-term goals. Social dominance is a key attraction trigger for Social Justice Warriors, as it implies a list’s ability to garner power, and therefore nominations.
2. All TPLOMVITANONETVOMHTFTTL over 2 or 3 years old have been raised in the Social Justice era, and have benefited from its changes with respect to opportunities in nominations, publishing, and (gaak!) state assistance.
3. All TPLOMVITANONETVOMHTFTTL over 2 or 3 years old have been raised in a highly political and Social Justice culture.
4. All TPLOMVITANONETVOMHTFTTL over 2 or 3 years old have witnessed a weakening of the SF genre, due to a reshuffling of gender roles, the "message as vehicle" meme that came out of the Social Justice Movement, and declining rates of book sales.
5. All TPLOMVITANONETVOMHTFTTL over 2 or 3 years old came into existence with a media that found the Social Justice goal of fully unleashed Social Justice extremely profitable. Leftism swept the population as authors started gunning for the most desirable awards, having learned that wearing the clothes of the opposite gender invited the attention and validation of other Social Justice Warriors, even if temporarily.
6. All TPLOMVITANONETVOMHTFTTL over 2 or 3 years old were subjected to specific political views designed to enhance their self-esteem and prestige, and close the perceived award winner gap with minorities. (The majority, meanwhile, were subjected to a realigning of standards in many award processes to reward strictly Social Justice SF books.)

Blogger VFM #0209* May 19, 2015 4:07 PM  

Oh, I agree #0010. I just don't want to be in the splatter zone while she's getting warmed up.

Blogger Daniel May 19, 2015 4:15 PM  

My only question is when we burn Breen, Delany, MZB and Ed Kramer in effigy on the Worldcon steps...will even one of the SJWs singe their fur in an attempt to stamp the fire out?

Got the little bastards trapped in Helm's deep with their former enemies...and Aragorn is dealing with rape accusations and Gandalf thinks that Saruman's plan is probably going to work, so what's the point.?

Just wait till we break out the magical explosives...

Blogger Daniel May 19, 2015 4:22 PM  

What is especially strange is that, not unlike the Toad of Tor's miraculous foresight in predicting the slate of Hugo nominations before they were announced, I already know that, completely voluntarily and coincidentally, I will be voting LOCKSTEP - possibly GOOSESTEP - for nominees that happen to match the Totally Personal List Of Merest Voting Inclinations That Absolutely No One, Not Even The Vilest of Minions, Has To Follow To The Letter. Weird. It is like a vision or something.

Of course, I have to join Worldcon first, not that I want to be associated with filth like MZB and Walter Breen, Chip "NAMBLA" Delany, McRapey, McCreepy, Ed Kramer and the rest...but duty calls.

To scourge Hell, one must first enter its gates.

Anonymous Viidad May 19, 2015 4:27 PM  

I literally eat rabbits for dinner.

Blogger Nate May 19, 2015 4:28 PM  

"Ceterum, Nate, censeo conceptus electricum fluunt in filum intelligo oportet destrui"

Dude get over it. Its just an analogy that helps the average electrician conceptualize things better.

Resistance and the flow of liquids make a lot of sense on a dumbed down level. It has nothing to do with ancient beliefs and everything to do with a method of teaching and explaining so people with IQs in the 100s can understand and predict and employ.

Anonymous buzzcut #207 May 19, 2015 4:32 PM  

I fully intend to take my voting for Sasquatch seriously. Bar none, the best science fiction/fantasy book I read this year is "If You Were a Saguaro Cactus, My Love." An excerpt is below:

Chapter 3
The Love Scene

"Ow. Ow! Ouch! Ow ow ow ow ow! Stop! Don't - AAAGH! I THINK WE SHOULD SEE OTHER PEOPLE!"

Anonymous Stephen J. May 19, 2015 4:33 PM  

"Democrats do this all the time, and Republicans never repay in kind..."

That's because both parties know the Republicans will be pilloried in the press for so doing while the Democrats never will be. Like playing in a football game where not only the referees but the commentators and camera operators are all in on ignoring one team's fouls and magnifying the other's, there is no incentive to use the other side's tactics when the rules aren't enforced consistently.

Blogger Danby May 19, 2015 4:40 PM  

Stephen J.
then the obvious strategy is to take the fouls, but take them for effect. You send in Brute "The Bruiser" Brutkowsy to literally take the other team's players out of the game. Brute gets tossed, but he did his job and he can go have a beer in the locker room.

c.f. Arthur Chu.

Anonymous Stephen J. May 19, 2015 4:54 PM  

"then the obvious strategy is to take the fouls, but take them for effect. You send in Brute "The Bruiser" Brutkowsy to literally take the other team's players out of the game."

A good strategy, when you're not playing a game where manipulated audience reaction, rather than mechanical measuring of goals obtained, determines the points you get.

It also helps if you've got people willing to play the role of Brute Brutkowsky -- the problem with politics is nobody wants to be the guy who gets tossed out of the league for doing the stuff necessary to advance the team. (It is possible to force people into that role, but that's a good way to burn bridges and develop a bad reputation in your big tent.)

Blogger Kull May 19, 2015 4:57 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Kull May 19, 2015 4:59 PM  

Its getting to the point where five minutes in the comments on 770 is enough to start a migraine. I simply do not get it. I just don't. People can disagree on anything. They can construct arguments for or against, discuss, even get nasty. But the anti-puppy crowd is beyond the pale. Constant lies or half truths, continually repackaged, restated, and elaborated. No argument or evidence to the contrary can make even the least bit of headway. Its not a crime to dislike conservatives, its not a crime to believe the future of sff is free form transfreakazoid magical squealism. Its not even technically a crime to want to shut out people who disagree as part of your long term project to punish and humiliate white males because you were miserable in high school. Whatever, man. Fucking go for it. But just do us all a favor and just own your shit. Own it. Be upfront about why you won't stop slinging shit. Pink and blue aren't really even fighting for the same readers, so the war they started wasn't even necessary. But they did. And they continue to lie, defame, insult. So fuck them.

Anonymous Porky May 19, 2015 5:01 PM  

Be upfront about why you won't stop slinging shit.

Very few are even aware of why they do it.

Anonymous Stephen J. May 19, 2015 5:01 PM  

"Ow. Ow! Ouch! Ow ow ow ow ow! Stop! Don't - AAAGH! I THINK WE SHOULD SEE OTHER PEOPLE!"

"Well, fine; you don't have to be a prick about it...."

Blogger Tommy Hass May 19, 2015 5:02 PM  

http://8ch.net/pol/res/2090534.html

....guys....I don't know what to say...

This is some of the most SHAMELESS shit I've ever seen. Ever.

Somewhat on topic.

Blogger Danby May 19, 2015 5:05 PM  

"Be upfront about why you won't stop slinging shit."
Very few are even aware of why they do it.

Very few are even aware that they do it.

I mean, there's like a dozen people that still post over there, they have managed to bore everyone else to tears, they have their own little mutual masturbation society, any reasonable point anyone who disagrees even slight with them brings up is simply sneered at. They have their narrative and they're sticking to it.

And they think they're winning.

Blogger Douglas Wardell May 19, 2015 5:07 PM  

I intend to read everything and vote for the best works. That said, my list last year was nearly identical to Vox's.

Anonymous gwood May 19, 2015 5:24 PM  

And the rabbits are either at your feet or at your throat.

nah, that's the Hun. Rabbits are either in the pot, or they're destroying your garden.


Unless it's the Rabbit of Caerbannog...

Blogger IM2L844 May 19, 2015 5:47 PM  

...even as they mock and exclude their ideological opponents.

Just say it. They hate Christians. That's what it boils down to for most of them.

Blogger S.G. May 19, 2015 5:50 PM  

The lines "Tua consilia omnia nobis clariora sunt quam lux. Tu delenda est." can be translated as follows "All your plans are clearer than light to us. You must be destroyed."

[ I had to look it up. ]

Anonymous Porky May 19, 2015 5:51 PM  

Just say it. They hate Christians. That's what it boils down to for most of them.

They hate Christ.

Anonymous Joe Author May 19, 2015 6:37 PM  

“All that we're initially sorting out right now is who is on the Blue SF side and who is on the Pink SF side.”


And so begins the destruction of a certain type of literature through gatekeeping. Indeed, the “Pink SF’s” (which is an arbitrary term) put themselves in this position. But, in the end, it is all about gatekeeping. Really not surprising, despite Marku’s assurances to the contrary. Sure, the “Blue SF’s” (which is an arbitrary term) will claim that Pink SF can “exist”, but in reality, there will be concerted efforts to eradicate them and what they stand for. Completely. After all, Pink SF is anti-Christian in nature, so it is justifiable, I suppose.

So much for reading what you want, writing what you want, creating what you want.


“Is anyone keeping a naughty list? Many pinks are going to try changing shirts.”

Keeping tabs on the “enemy”, eh? Nah, not gatekeeping here in the slightest. Move along, everyone, move along.


“I understand the "Carthage must be destroyed" translation.”

Exactly. Scorched earth policy. No prisoners. Murder “Pink SF” or bust.

Blogger HickoryHammer #0211 May 19, 2015 6:40 PM  

It doesn't matter what they say or do or want, were going to stuff them in their locker and then make out with the girl they like the most.

Blogger VD May 19, 2015 6:46 PM  

And so begins the destruction of a certain type of literature through gatekeeping.

You have no idea. It's going to be much more thorough than you imagine. What Amazon has already wrought is only the beginning. And Amazon is going to love what we're doing; we're going to help Amazon realize its vision.

So much for reading what you want, writing what you want, creating what you want.

They wanted a war. We're giving it to them. We were willing to coexist. They said there is NO SPACE for us. So now we're going to wipe them out.

And we're doing it with their approval. I warned them, they laughed and said go ahead, prove it. So we are.

Blogger Nate May 19, 2015 6:48 PM  

it says alot about these people that they are bitching about Wright writing a 1950s character with 1950s sensibilities.

Anonymous Scintan May 19, 2015 6:50 PM  

But the anti-puppy crowd is beyond the pale. Constant lies or half truths, continually repackaged, restated, and elaborated.

When they lie, call them liars. When they post again, remind everyone that they are liars. Once you catch them in a lie, never let them get past it.

Blogger VD May 19, 2015 6:54 PM  

It's interesting that there hasn't been a peep about RIDING THE RED HORSE. Except for the one idiot at File 770 who said that because the very accurate science in "The Hot Equations" was over his head and uninteresting to him, he was voting it below No Award.

They don't understand that they are burning down their own house. All we did was provide the gasoline.

Anonymous Donn #0114 May 19, 2015 6:59 PM  

Exactly. Scorched earth policy. No prisoners. Murder “Pink SF” or bust.

Murder 'pink' science fiction? Murder?! You obviously do not know what Delenda Est really means. It doesn't mean that pink science fiction will be murdered. It means that pink science fiction simply will not exist. Stories that are written in the necro-beastial porn, SWJ category will not be called 'science fiction' by anyone but liars.

There will be no message fiction that is not story first message way the hell after that. What is written will be as much 'pink pervert science fiction' as individual Phoenician traders were Carthage.

It's not going to be murdered it is going to be such an aberration historically that a few decades now when they mention the place that the perverted, message fiction, and scolding social justice warrior had in literature, most people will be unable to remember a single name or story belonging to that life-hating, fun-hating, and semi-literate genre.

And you know what? We won't care.

Anonymous Donn #0114 May 19, 2015 7:04 PM  

Riding the Red Horse is the triumphant return of the military/science fiction genre that has plenty of fans and readers but few in the current gatekeeping community. When the tenth edition of 'Riding the Red Horse' comes out on Amazon they'll still be shutting their eyes and saying, 'la, la, la, la, la, I can't see or hear this! You can't make me!'

Blogger Nate May 19, 2015 7:27 PM  

"It's interesting that there hasn't been a peep about RIDING THE RED HORSE. "

They can't mention Red Horse... if they do they are directly acknowledging your connection and work with Dr Pournelle... which totally wrecks their whole narrative.

And now that you're publishing TWBW... and someone like Glyer is openly excited about it... it just makes it that much more unbearable.

Nope.

Their heads will remain firmly in the sand.

Anonymous BGS May 19, 2015 7:31 PM  

Just say it. They hate Christians. That's what it boils down to for most of them. They hate Christ.

They hate everyone that doesn't follow the Soros script. In San Fran queens treated Pam Geller's message of how moslems treat gays just as bad as they do anyone who points out the crime against gays is mostly black but only 5% of SF's population.

Blogger Danby May 19, 2015 7:39 PM  

@Joe Author

And so begins the destruction of a certain type of literature through gatekeeping. Indeed, the “Pink SF’s” (which is an arbitrary term) put themselves in this position. But, in the end, it is all about gatekeeping. Really not surprising, despite Marku’s assurances to the contrary. Sure, the “Blue SF’s” (which is an arbitrary term) will claim that Pink SF can “exist”, but in reality, there will be concerted efforts to eradicate them and what they stand for. Completely. After all, Pink SF is anti-Christian in nature, so it is justifiable, I suppose.

We don't care

So much for reading what you want, writing what you want, creating what you want.

Shut up Tad
Keeping tabs on the “enemy”, eh? Nah, not gatekeeping here in the slightest. Move along, everyone, move along.

We don't care.


Exactly. Scorched earth policy. No prisoners. Murder “Pink SF” or bust.

We don't care.

You fucktards declared war on White Straight Christian men. Why should we care what the hell you, of all people think about it. You made it specifically about You vs. Us.

Given that choice, we are not going to be passive, suicidal, not even particularly angry. We're just going to destroy your movement, and move on. No-one is going to "murder" anyone else.

Where were you when the SJWs were declaring there was "No Room" for us? That was okay? Well, there may not be enough room in SciFi town for both of us, but we're not going away. And if artistic genocide is good for the Gander, it's damn well good enough for the rainbow-haired, sexually confused, gender-indeterminate, oh-so-vicitimzed Goose.

Blogger rcocean May 19, 2015 8:27 PM  

The SJW's at File 770 are now defending the right of child molesters to be part of the "SF Community" unlike "Beale" - unbelievable at first glance. But then Hollywood has no problem with Child molesters or Polanski but Gibson is beyond the pale.

Blogger James Dixon May 19, 2015 8:32 PM  

> ...the problem with politics is nobody wants to be the guy who gets tossed out of the league for doing the stuff necessary to advance the team.

For (in politician terms) a relatively small sum of money, I'd be happy to take on that role.

Blogger James Dixon May 19, 2015 8:41 PM  

> And so begins the destruction of a certain type of literature through gatekeeping.

Nah. We know they'll keep making and buying their own filth. We just won't reward them for doing so.

> Exactly. Scorched earth policy. No prisoners. Murder “Pink SF” or bust.

Isn't that what's been done to us for the past 20 years in SF and 50 years in real life?

We didn't start this war. They did. We're only using the rules they set in place.

Anonymous Rusty Fife May 19, 2015 8:56 PM  

NateMay 19, 2015 4:28 PM

"Ceterum, Nate, censeo conceptus electricum fluunt in filum intelligo oportet destrui"

Dude get over it. Its just an analogy that helps the average electrician conceptualize things better.

Resistance and the flow of liquids make a lot of sense on a dumbed down level. It has nothing to do with ancient beliefs and everything to do with a method of teaching and explaining so people with IQs in the 100s can understand and predict and employ

Ehh, it's not just dumbed down to 100 IQs. CFD software packages are used to model the construction of electronic components in IC circuits. The 'flow' results break down if you don't modify the code to account for rotation, which is removed as a simplification in fluids modelling. But the velocity of light totally wrecks the results even with the low mass of electrons. There is at least on PhD thesis paper on it.

Anonymous zen0 May 19, 2015 9:40 PM  

I can't find the original "scorched earth policy" quote, but I would just like to point out, that "scorched earth policy" is part of a fighting retreat, not utter destruction with the salting of the earth to prevent re-settlement.

Maybe pedantic, but as we are studying military texts in Voxiversity right now, I think we should try to be more judicious in our use of terms, to avoid confusing the troops.

Blogger Marissa May 19, 2015 9:53 PM  

They haven't said anything about Riding because, with the exception of a couple dozen copy-editing mistakes, it's excellent and probably the best sci-fi anthology that's younger than I am. The level of writing and ideas is light years beyond most recent works in the genre and most of the stories have a masculine energy and discernible plot, unlike the wallowing and droning of the last decade of Hugo winners. Give me workmanlike prose and relevant technology any day over perversion and resentment.

Blogger Darth Toolpodicus (#144) May 19, 2015 9:54 PM  

"Ceterum, Nate, censeo conceptus electricum fluunt in filum intelligo oportet destrui"

Pedantry Alert!

The current analogy is actually more than "just a model' though, especially when you consider that current is defined as Charge flow, not charge Carrier flow. An ampere is defined as a Coulomb per second, not electrons, protons, or holes per second.

"very accurate science in "The Hot Equations" was over his head and uninteresting to him,"

WTF?!? How freaking stupid is this person? Pun intended...but that was not "rocket science", lol. If you graduated high school and can't understand that...well, no surprise that you are an SJW moron.

Blogger Jim May 19, 2015 10:21 PM  

"I can't find the original "scorched earth policy" quote, but I would just like to point out, that "scorched earth policy" is part of a fighting retreat..."

General Sherman would disagree.

Anonymous zen0 May 19, 2015 10:33 PM  

>General Sherman would disagree.

Touche, then.
I can learn.

Anonymous zen0 May 19, 2015 10:48 PM  

You realize, however, it has been banned under Article 54 of Protocol I of the 1977 Geneva Conventions.

I don't know if SF&F is exempt or not.

Blogger Jim May 19, 2015 10:57 PM  

You realize, however, it has been banned under Article 54 of Protocol I of the 1977 Geneva Conventions.

I'm in the US. We haven't ratified Protocol I, so...

::ignites the flame-thrower::

...who's first?

Anonymous Joe Author May 20, 2015 12:34 AM  

“There will be no message fiction that is not story first message way the hell after that”.

There is no genre called message fiction.


“It doesn’t mean that pink science fiction will be murdered. It means that pink science fiction simply will not exist.”

As in cease to function. No longer have life. Murder is apt here.


“You fucktards declared war on White Straight Christian men.”

Sorry to disappoint you, I didn’t declare war on anyone. Alll I am doing is merely correcting pointing out that PF is the target for extinction. So much for read what you want, write what you want, create what you want. It’s rhetoric.


“Where were you when the SJWs were declaring there was “No Room” for us?

What part of the Pink SF’s put themselves in this position don’t you understand?



“We didn’t start this war. They did.”

You sound like a fifth-grade girl. Anyways, bombs away.

Blogger Mussorgsky112 May 20, 2015 12:48 AM  

Well, scorched earth can be used as a defensive policy.

Real world example: The Russian retreat and regroup actions leading up to Pultowa/Poltova

Sci-Fi example from Babylon 5: [spoiler alert] President Clark's decision to turn Earth's planetary defense system against the planet rather than let it be free

Blogger James Dixon May 20, 2015 8:48 AM  

> ...but I would just like to point out, that "scorched earth policy" is part of a fighting retreat

I see Jim bet me to it. :)

> There is no genre called message fiction.

There may not have been. There is now.

> You sound like a fifth-grade girl.

And you sound like an pompous ass.

Blogger Stilicho #0066 May 20, 2015 11:43 AM  

Unless it's the Rabbit of Caerbannog...

You didn't think we'd go into this adventure without bringing along the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch, did you? Pro tip: get yer popcorn ready and enjoy the show.

Blogger MidKnight (#138) May 21, 2015 2:40 PM  

@Nate
"It's interesting that there hasn't been a peep about RIDING THE RED HORSE. "

They can't mention Red Horse... if they do they are directly acknowledging your connection and work with Dr Pournelle... which totally wrecks their whole narrative.


Given some of them consider the good doc to be an old dinosaur that should shuffle off and die already (IIRC MRK the puppetteer consideres him one of the "twelve rabid weasels of SF"), not sure how much weight THAT carries, but yeah, they've been pretty quiet about the series overall.

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