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Friday, May 29, 2015

One tit is never enough

JCCarlton explains why Eric Flint owes Brad Torgersen an apology:
The best thing the CHORFs could have done is lived by the principles they say that they said the Hugos represented.  They cold have welcomed the puppies as new blood.  At the very least they could have remained silent and accepted the fact that things are going to change.  Instead they created a huge media smear campaign against, among other people, Brad.  Frankly, accusing BRAD of being anything other than the nicest guy you will ever meet is just weird and I don’t think I’ve ever met Brad personally.  But when you play by Alinsky rules, facts aren’t relevant, the narrative is.

Along with that they are trying to “fix” the Hugos to make sure that only the “proper Worldcon membership,” the TRUFAN is allowed to pick who SF awards the Hugos to.  They are trying as hard as they can to make the Hugos the comfortable racket they like so much.  I don’t think that they realize just how much the nastiness they’ve been spreading around is losing them friends

Of course it doesn’t help that the CHORFs have been diligently creating their own monster.  I suspect that they thought that Vox would just fall apart and blow away like dust when they went all Alinsky on him at SFWA.  The problem is that Alinsky tactics only work when the other side accept you definition of them.  And Vox didn’t believe what the CHORFs were saying he was and frankly was able to turn their constant distortions and half truths against them.  Making false assertions doesn’t work as well on the internet where almost nothing is permanently forgotten and everything can documented.  It’s hard to make false assertions when the truth is a Google search away.

What the CHORFs don’t seem to be able to understand is that once you put up something in a blog, you might as well be broadcasting your actions to the other side.  And while most of us don’t care what’s on the CHORFs’ blogs on or another of us will probably see it and pass it around.  And Vox is not above pointing out the other side’s strategies and saying to his readership, tit for tat.

Up until the last few years I don’t think that many of us fans really cared about the Hugos very much.  The one time I’ve been able to attend a Worldcon I don’t think I even voted.  I’m absolutely sure that I didn’t participate in the nomination process the next year.  One thing the response the CHORFs have made many of realize for the first time is just how rotten the Hugo Awards have gotten.  I think that up until the CHORFs  declared total war on the puppies none of us on the other side really understood how far those people were willing to go for little plastic rocketships.
I have to admit that I don't give a damn what Eric Flint thinks. He need not apologize to me, regardless of what he may have said. I know that some of his fellow Baen writers think well of him, but I've never read anything he's written and I don't know anything about the man except for the fact that he's published by Baen and he's said to be an unreconstructed socialist.

So, I don't know if JCC is correct or not. But he's certainly correct to claim that I am not above recommending tit for tat. Indeed, I am considerably below that, being a devotee of the tactical philosophy that requires three or more tits for every tat.

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123 Comments:

Anonymous black knight May 29, 2015 12:03 PM  

Eric Flint is another shitbag that Instapundit put on the map.

Between Scalzi and Flint, Glenn Reynolds owes us TWO appologies.

Blogger jay c May 29, 2015 12:08 PM  

Well, cuz three tits are always better than one, right?

Blogger Blackburn #0040 May 29, 2015 12:17 PM  

Moar tits!! 6 sounds like a nice round number.

Anonymous Nathan May 29, 2015 12:21 PM  

To be fair, I found Vox through Instapundit, but, yes, there was a time in the mid-00s where he recommended a group of SF writers that have been disappointing. His recommendations as of late have been more varied, more indie, and more Puppy-ish.

Anonymous Blume May 29, 2015 12:22 PM  

Black Knight, Weber put Flint on the Map. Weber and him co-wrote a couple Baen series. The problem I have with Eric being called a Trotskeyite is that his works read nothing like that. But he calls himself one. He now does what Weber used to do which is give new authors an established name to write with and makes bank.

Blogger Jack Ward May 29, 2015 12:24 PM  

Actually read some of his alternate history [1632 series I think it was] I was mildly entertained for awhile then gave up on it all. Socialists; yeah, probably so. Good writer; lets say adequate at best.
If he jumped on Torgersen that badly then reading anything he writes again would be a problem. Why do that when you can read Torgersen? Besides, I got a few standards around here somewhere.

Blogger vanderleun May 29, 2015 12:26 PM  

"I don't know anything about the man except for the fact that he's published by Baen and he's said to be an unreconstructed socialist."

In that case can somebody get over to his place and measure the distance between his nostrils and the back of his skull with an ice-pick and report back?

Thanks in advance.

Anonymous Jack Amok May 29, 2015 12:28 PM  

Declare.

That seems to be the directive in SFF these days. You have to declare your side. Well, groupism does that, and SJWs are groupists. You have to pick your side and stand with them, or you will be assigned to a side and attacked. Nobody is free to just be their own man.

So long as the SJW have any influence in the industry, we will continue to see authors attacking other authors, forced into it by the shrieking harpies.

Anonymous Jason May 29, 2015 12:31 PM  

I thought this post was going to be about a new Equality book cover.

Blogger Stilicho #0066 May 29, 2015 12:40 PM  

Moar tits!! 6 sounds like a nice round number.

Udder nonsense!

Blogger Cataline Sergius May 29, 2015 12:40 PM  

Up until the last few years I don’t think that many of us fans really cared about the Hugos very much.

That was not quite how I felt about the Hugos.

To me it was an institution whose judgment, I used to respect. But that judgment had clearly eroded. It used to be a benchmark for quality so far as I was concerned.

It wasn't until Sad Puppies 2 that I realized just how far it had fallen.

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus May 29, 2015 12:47 PM  

Actually read some of his alternate history [1632 series I think it was] I was mildly entertained for awhile then gave up on it all. Socialists; yeah, probably so. Good writer; lets say adequate at best.

I got bored with the 1632 series after the first novel. It was simply too outlandish and unbelievable. I mean, the part about a chunk of West Virginia getting sent back in time by an Assiti Shard at least seemed plausible.

The idea of union members doing anything to make the situation better? Completely off its rocker.

Anonymous That Would Be Telling May 29, 2015 12:54 PM  

No just members of any union, but the United Mine Workers. Those of us old enough to remember the murder of Joseph Yablonski and his wife and daughter probably find that as hard to stomach as I did.

Blogger luagha May 29, 2015 1:01 PM  

The first 1632 book did have a female high-school riflery competitor become a deadly sniper, so it did have that going for it.

Blogger lubertdas May 29, 2015 1:04 PM  

Read 1632, was mildly amused, but not nearly enough to read further in the series. Have not read anything else by Flint, and I don't plan on it.

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus May 29, 2015 1:07 PM  

The first 1632 book did have a female high-school riflery competitor become a deadly sniper, so it did have that going for it.

Ah yes, I'd quite forgotten about the grrrrrl power.

Anonymous cheddarman May 29, 2015 1:25 PM  

about female snipers, the Russians claimed to use them to good effect in WW2...unless that was all Soviet propaganda...

Anonymous Cheddarman, vile faceless minion 0187 May 29, 2015 1:26 PM  

Moar tits!! 6 sounds like a nice round number. - on the same woman?

Anonymous BGS May 29, 2015 1:29 PM  

If I was STR8 I would probably think one tit was not enough also.

Anonymous BGS May 29, 2015 1:30 PM  

"Moar tits!! 6 sounds like a nice round number. - on the same woman? "

I recall there is a statue in the Vatican that has several dozen tits.

Blogger Cataline Sergius May 29, 2015 1:34 PM  

I'll give Eric Flint his due, he actually read Vox Popoli before writing his screed.

Standard lefty practice is to take whatever Scalzi says about Vox as gospel and just run with it. He clearly didn't do that. His biggest claim against Vox is that Vox is a Chiseler. An accusation that doesn't come up much these days but showed a little creativity.

Not that Eric doesn't do a bit of chiseling himself.

There was lot of fun old time lefty stuff with lefty blinders glued on to be found in his post. Eric has apparently had three attempts on his life, made by right wingers and has been beaten by them as well.

Given his careful phrasing I am quite certain these right wingers were all Democrats in good standing.

Also I rather doubt that I would have considered them right wingers at all.

Flint is 68 and if the collapse of the Soviet Union and the commercialization of Mao's China, AS WELL as that of Vietnam have taught him nothing, then at this point he is wedded to his illusions.

I will say I like his books so long as David Drake is Co-Authoring.

Blogger Cataline Sergius May 29, 2015 1:41 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous black knight May 29, 2015 1:41 PM  

"Given his careful phrasing I am quite certain these right wingers were all Democrats in good standing. "

Trotskyists consider Stalinists to be "right wing."

SJWs always lie. Flint is a fucking liar too.

Anonymous NateM May 29, 2015 1:43 PM  

"three or more tits"

One for each hand has always been enough for me

Blogger Stilicho #0066 May 29, 2015 1:50 PM  

at this point he is wedded to his illusions

I would venture that "welded" might be a better term...

Anonymous Snickers May 29, 2015 1:50 PM  

One for each hand, and then another for sucking on...

OpenID mattse001 May 29, 2015 1:50 PM  

It's simple game theory. No strategy has ever beaten retaliation for maximizing global outcome.
Retaliation and THREAT of retaliation keep the other side honest, so you might argue that we are just doing the moral thing.

Blogger Matt #0083 May 29, 2015 1:53 PM  

Flint, like Scalzi, turns into pretty much "all the same" after awhile. Sometimes this is avoided by careful choice of co-authors. I agree that the Flint/Drake stuff is better than a lot of the other output.

Unlike Scalzi, Flint's "all the same" is at least pretty interesting at first, rather than immediately defaulting to the same old boring Superior Ironic Snark stance. And while there are definitely some SJW talking points that creep into Flint's work, they aren't built totally around leftist messages the way the gray goo SJW sludge that's been Hugo-nominated lately has been. I give him points for writing real stories that his insane politics do not totally dominate.

Blogger Jew613 May 29, 2015 1:54 PM  

I enjoyed some of Flint's books. The Pyramid series doesn't have the socialism but was mostly a fun series about adventurers thrust into a world based on Greek mythology. 1632 was entertaining at first but got old quick and it wasnt the unionism, I like Unions at least in theory, too many of them are in the leftward death spiral at this point. His Joe's World series wasnt just Leftist but a rather nasty work, like the French Revolution model of lets murder everyone in the upper classes or whom we disagree with while having a good time doing it.

Blogger Gordon May 29, 2015 1:56 PM  

Julie the cheerleader sniper is a likeable, and believable character. Girls can, and have been, very effective in that role. But the quality of that series has been low for a while now, and it's not painful to state that I'm done with Eric Flint.

Anonymous TUSigmaIan #0028 May 29, 2015 1:58 PM  

I think he wrote the Belisarius series with Drake before the books with Weber.

He seems to do better work as a co-author or editor than as a sole author. Or at least I've enjoyed the books he co-authored and the anthologies he edited more than his solo works.

Anonymous Beau May 29, 2015 2:02 PM  

I for one look forward to reading the works of the other 523 authors Castalia House will publish.

and OT

Prayer was offered up at church for Bobby, a middle-aged heroin addict. The outcome Bobby bubbled, "I've never been so happy in all my life. Thank you for the church service. I'm getting off methadone; it's supposed to take months, but I barely feel it in my legs. I've never felt this good." Our God specializes in the impossible.

and

Margaret, an RN and committed atheist, totally threw in her lot now as a new Christian sister. Margaret said, "My friends don't know what to think of me. Life is so different, and new, and filled with joy." Thank you Lord Jesus.

Blogger Harsh May 29, 2015 2:04 PM  

Moar tits!! 6 sounds like a nice round number.

Udder nonsense!

Stop it, you two boobs.

Blogger MidKnight (#138) May 29, 2015 2:09 PM  

@Gordon

I enjoyed 1632, 33, and the Baltic War book Weber co-authored.

Read one more after that, but cannot say I ENJOYED any of them after that, and gave up. Especially given how completely over-the-top liberal/femenist/socialist some of the other contributors were, with message much more in the forefront.

He did well mentoring Freer (Pyramid Scheme) as well.

And the Belesarius books too.... though his influence can be a bit heavy-handed at times. Drake can have some competent and scary powerful women, but doesn't tend to do the grrrrl power thing

Blogger Cail Corishev May 29, 2015 2:16 PM  

Moar tits!! 6 sounds like a nice round number.

There's a good bit near the end of the MST3K episode "Werewolf," after the lead actress is bitten by one:

Crow: Hey, if she's a wolf, she'll have three rows of breasts!
Tom: Heh heh, ugh, I'm not sure how to feel about that.

Anonymous BigGaySteve May 29, 2015 2:23 PM  

Given his careful phrasing I am quite certain these right wingers were all Democrats in good standing

Like pussy riot getting whipped by a Cossak on video requires you not to notice the Cossak didn't know how to use a whip.

"at this point he is wedded to his illusions " "I would venture that "welded" might be a better term..."

Maybe he will cheat on his illusions when no one is looking.

It turns out rats flee sinking ships, since labour has gone full retard/moslem gays have been fleeing to the conservative side, well if you can call Torry with Anthropogenic Global Warming, socialized health care, gun control, and unlimited immigration (legal and otherwise) conservative. Moslems are a better fit for labour since over 80% of moslems in the UK are on welfare/dole.
http://www.gaypatriot.net/2015/05/29/wealthy-gay-tory-running-for-mayor-of-london/ “Our LGBT group is bigger than all the other groups for all the other parties put together. They [the Conservatives] are the gayest party there is! And I think we have the most gay MPs as well.” Although I am not sure if they are only counting those who sleep with guys over the 16yo age of consent.

Blogger David-093 May 29, 2015 2:33 PM  

"Stop it, you two boobs."

This is the breast thread ever.

Blogger darkdoc May 29, 2015 2:41 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger darkdoc May 29, 2015 2:41 PM  

Three Tits for a Tat.

A Dave Barry rock band for sure.

Blogger Dexter May 29, 2015 2:42 PM  

Trotskyists consider Stalinists to be "right wing."

I've had surreal conversations with these types in which they insist Stalin, Mao, Castro, Kim Il Sung, Pol Pot etc., were actually "state capitalists" (i.e., fascists) and thus enemies of "true communism".

Blogger t.c. May 29, 2015 2:43 PM  

I said this since the beginning as well. It's what brought me here to the website initially, even though I share very opposite views from many of you. The SJWs/left leaning authors blew this whole thing up themselves. They should have just not reacted and got more people to nominate and vote next year.

Blogger Cataline Sergius May 29, 2015 2:43 PM  

@Stilicho

You think you know better than spellcheck?

I don't think so.

Blogger Copperheaded May 29, 2015 2:44 PM  

Women should have three breasts - two in front and one in the back for dancing. - Al Bundy

Anonymous Cheddarman, vile faceless minion 0187 May 29, 2015 2:44 PM  

Big Gay Steve,

do you have any gay and hopefully fabulous anecdotes about tits? If so, please do share.

Sincerely

Anonymous p-dawg May 29, 2015 2:52 PM  

I prefer two tits and no tats.

Blogger ChicagoRefugee May 29, 2015 2:58 PM  

I quite enjoyed 1632 at the Baen Free Library, but if I'm ever inclined to read anything else by I'll make sure I get it secondhand or free. I wouldn't want to corrupt him with filthy capitalist lucre, after all.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents May 29, 2015 3:01 PM  

I read some of the Belisarius series Flint co-wrote with Drake. At the time I figured Flint was a young, up and coming author. According to his bio he was born in 1947, so he's actually yet another leading-edge Boomer, in the same cohort as Clinton, GW Bush, etc.

Disneyland was built for that cohort of people. They've never gotten over it, and it shows.

Blogger David-093 May 29, 2015 3:08 PM  

@p-dawg

What about tats of tits?

Anonymous BigGaySteve May 29, 2015 3:15 PM  

do you have any gay and hopefully fabulous anecdotes about tits?

Not really other than younger lesbians like to go around topless with stickers over their nipples, although its usually confined to working in jobs that require tips. Hooters seems prudish compared to places that cater to lesbians. I almost got in trouble for not noticing a co workers tits. I helped her move her patient & supposedly he put his hand on her tit, and I didn't do anything (other than all the work moving him) to stop him. I had to truthfully say that I never noticed she had tits (she was really flat chested) & didn't see the man grab (what was not there) her. I joked with the other guy on the floor that perhaps we should wheel the guy out to the parking lot to see if he can spot life on Mars.

Blogger Nate May 29, 2015 3:18 PM  

it really is fun to watch them fall all over themselves over The Hot Equations... I mean for crying out loud... at least get the name right...

Blogger Dominic Saltarelli May 29, 2015 3:22 PM  

Few problems cannot be resolved through the liberal and judicious addition of more tits.

Anonymous p-dawg May 29, 2015 3:24 PM  

@David-093: Only if they're located on the tits. I also accept butt-shaped tattoos on butts.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents May 29, 2015 3:28 PM  

@BGS

"Yesterday upon the stair,
I met a tit that wasn't there,
It wasn't there again today,
I wish, I wish it'd go away"

Anonymous BGS May 29, 2015 3:41 PM  

A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents- No if you looked at her torso from the side it still would not be there. Even trannies can grow noticeable ones via diet.

Vox gave me wedding cakes for the captcha

Anonymous pseudotsuga* May 29, 2015 3:53 PM  

Flint has made a couple other blunders. In one blog post he made on his own blog he repeated the "quote" that many SJWs repeat to make Vox a monster (in which Vox argues that in certain Islamic countries it is rational behavior to throw acid into the faces of women who don't toe the line).
I called him out on it, and pointed out that if you read the actual exchange, Vox does not condone the behavior described, but that he is arguing that their reasoning was rational (even though it is an evil deed). I don't know if Flint was merely reading until offended, or (more likely) just copy-and-pasting what other have said about Vox.
All that being said, I have met Flint personally, and although we don't match politically at all, he's an accomplished writer who has done some pretty good work in which the story is the point.

Anonymous RedJack #22 May 29, 2015 3:53 PM  

I will give Eric Flint a huge point in his favor. He, along with Drake, wrote the "Belisarius " series. A rather old school, and good series.

Anonymous Nathan May 29, 2015 4:16 PM  

"it really is fun to watch them fall all over themselves over The Hot Equations... I mean for crying out loud... at least get the name right..."

Why? Is it because it replaced yet another year's X Dig Y book? I know I suggested it in part because I was sick of the fandom circle jerk of the past few years in the related works category.

Blogger Marc DuQuesne May 29, 2015 4:22 PM  

RedJack, I preferred the first time Drake did it with Stirling.

Blogger CarpeOro May 29, 2015 4:25 PM  

I'd have to agree with vfm 138. Belisarius series and first few 1632 books were decent. I lost any track of where the series went with all of the "novels" set in that universe and gave up on it. I'd have to quibble about David Drake reigning in the grrl power factor. The Leary series (sort of Horatio Hornblower in space) was quite good up until the last few, but has had from the first a superior female gunfighter/computer genius and the strongest member of the crew was a woman... the first character was starting to come unraveled the last book I read. I've had to stop reading Drake's recent collaborative works as they have been very little Drake and mostly collaborator to their detriment.

Anonymous John Regan May 29, 2015 4:26 PM  

OT: More banker 'suicides':

http://nypost.com/2015/05/28/man-falls-to-death-outside-luxury-building/

Blogger Jack Ward May 29, 2015 4:30 PM  

I shall have to make a point of reading more of Mr. Carlton's thoughts.

Wow! If I were Flint I would duck into a rabbit hole and pull it in after myself. That was brutal. By all means, folks, take the link and read the whole thing, including the links contained therein.

Blogger SirHamster (#201) May 29, 2015 4:38 PM  

OT: More banker 'suicides':

"Sources said the young banker had made several attempts to kill himself earlier in the morning, including cutting his wrists, before making the plunge.
[...]
He had apparently become very successful on his own."


How hard is it for a successful person to plan and execute a plan for suicide? "Several attempts" ...

Blogger Chiva May 29, 2015 4:39 PM  

@Beau Our God specializes in the impossible.

So true.

Blogger John Wright May 29, 2015 4:41 PM  

" I give him points for writing real stories that his insane politics do not totally dominate."

That is what the Sad Puppies movement is all about, really. I could not tell from Mr Flint's fiction what his politics were, nor did I want to.

Indeed, if he were wise, he would affirm our side. The Social Justice Morlocks hate Marx and Trotsky just as much as they hate Christ, or any other dead white male.

Story first.

Anonymous Smokey May 29, 2015 4:55 PM  

OT:

Not sure if anyone else posted this already, but:

http://io9.com/someone-will-livetweet-vox-days-debut-novel-for-charity-1707747639

Hilarity all round.

Blogger SirHamster (#201) May 29, 2015 5:06 PM  

Hilarity all round.

Charitable donations will focus on fighting Marital Rape. Indeed.

Anonymous Roundtine May 29, 2015 5:08 PM  

How hard is it for a successful person to plan and execute a plan for suicide? "Several attempts" ...

Have you never heard Coolige?

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan Press On! has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.”

Blogger Student in Blue May 29, 2015 5:10 PM  

How hard is it for a successful person to plan and execute a plan for suicide? "Several attempts" ...

It's really not the difficulty most of the time, but rather can the person really get past their self-preservation instincts?

A not insignificant portion (I have no numbers) of suicides is as a cry for help after all, and not necessarily about ending everything.

Anonymous Nathan May 29, 2015 5:13 PM  

Eh, it's a couple Torlings on Gawker. This'll backfire just as much as Gawker's unionization will. Really, with all the scams and stunts Gawker has pulled, from Coke's Mein Kampf to the chocolate weight loss thing of late, I'm surprised they haven't been sued into oblivion.

Blogger Doom May 29, 2015 5:54 PM  

I don't always agree with your nitty or your gritty. But I love the cut of your... tits? Tat? Hmm... Both! I take your three tits and raise a tit (even numbers are much... more pleasant to contemplate). Tats are for laggards. Gimme four tits, any day, even if on the receiving end. Tits are the schnizle, especially when raised in quads. A room, page, world, full of tits... I don't know... is exciting! In theory. Keeping in mind some tits are definitely better than others.

Blogger SirHamster (#201) May 29, 2015 6:06 PM  

It's really not the difficulty most of the time, but rather can the person really get past their self-preservation instincts?

I find the method swapping and the report of multiple attempts odd. To try, to give up, and to then find determination in a short enough time period to follow through with something else, without getting target fixated on the original suicide attempt method. Though perhaps throwing oneself off a building is easier than cutting yourself up.

Another report brings up a drug angle, so that's another potential explanation for oddity ... but that's all I'm saying. A gut feeling of "That's odd".

Anonymous Huckleberry (#87) -- est. 1977 May 29, 2015 6:25 PM  

How hard is it for a successful person to plan and execute a plan for suicide? "Several attempts" ...

To be fair, he was probably higher than a float in the Macy's Day Parade at the time.

Blogger IM2L844 May 29, 2015 7:08 PM  

I read Eric Flint's four thousand + word essay from May 15th where he was whining about people he claimed to perceive as whining and my brain couldn't take the rampant cognitive dissonance. Haven't been back since. I guess he's at it again?

Anonymous FriarBob May 29, 2015 7:26 PM  

I'd agree with anybody who said Flint is NOT a HORRIBLE writer... or even who said he was decent. Great? No, can't agree there. But decent. And he DOES have a functional brain... when he remembers to use it. After all, he was able to make a GREAT logical argument for why DRM is a total disaster and totally not worth using, that is doesn't help sales at all and only pisses off consumers (among other reasons). Sad that he can get "residual sales" so clearly and yet can't figure out so many other things.

IMO his problem is that when his preconceptions are challenged his brain shuts down and his biases kick in. And of course he's all-but genetically predisposed to think "unions good, corporations bad". (Granted corporations often ARE bad, but not for the reasons he thinks they are.) So we have an otherwise at least fairly intelligent person who can't figure out why unions have completely outlived their usefulness.

Don't get me started on his 16xx series. I read the first few books and some of the spin-offs. Weber's contributions were good. Almost all the rest... utter socialist drek... or bad writing... or both.

I did like Cachat tho. And Bellisaurius too. But most of his other stuff... meh. If Weber or Drake isn't keeping him in line, I'm not a fan.

Weber is, unfortunately, also at least partly gamma himself. Probably mostly, except he doesn't have the flaming dishonesty of the rest of the "true" SJW/gamma crowd. And he does such a good job of painting his picture with (sometimes excessive) words... so most of the time I just ignore the idiocy and enjoy the story anyway.

Blogger Blume May 29, 2015 8:09 PM  

His greatest contribution is as editor of that series. The truly memorable scenes are written by his coauthors. The music books are fantastic but you can tell it is all his coauthor who just writes great blue fantasy about music and religious redemption and traditional hero cops. In the ram rebellion it is clearly his Mormon Co writer who writies the scene of the protestant uptimer taking the flogging for the Mormon accused of heresy.

Anonymous Culture War Draftee #151 May 29, 2015 8:23 PM  

I read Flint's piece that set off JCC's response. Two things stood out at me. One, he got demolished in the comments. Barely anyone agreed with Flint's thesis and James May, who is wonderfully obsessive about prog-tard hate speech, pretty much nuked him Two, we don't care. I get it, Flint suffered for his activism, etc, etc, What's that got to do with voting in the Hugos? What's that got to do with social-media posers ranting about SWMs and how we've destroyed their lives? My days of not taking Flint seriously are certainly coming to a middle.

Blogger Dave Freer May 29, 2015 8:49 PM  

As someone who knows Eric fairly well, and has co-authored a lot of books with him (judging by the breast comments, some of you probably enjoy Rats Bats & Vats, our first) in his defense I will say 1)Eric can admit he was wrong, if you can present a logical, factual argument. Get into rhetoric and he does the same and it's a waste of time. 2)I've seen him stand up for people he personally dislikes because he thinks that in that circumstance they're right. That sits well with me. 3)As with most co-authorships, it's principally me writing (although Eric actually wrote sections in some books, which isn't typical in this) but once again, atypically, he does a lot of sensible structural editing. I've tried to learn from him, but he is way better at it than most editors in Trad publishing. 4) With Eric, you can actually make compromises, and they stick. He doesn't try and take the inch you gave to take another five. That's rare. 5)Eric is open about his politics, but actually gets on very well with people from across the spectrum, generally. That's a matter of public record. 6) Like me, his personal taste in reading tends toward old-style adventurous sf (which is why he talked Jim Baen into re-issuing Schmitz - which was expected to be a very irrelevant venture into nostalgia for both of them, and actually was much more popular than expected. I don't agree with Eric on a number of subjects, but I have always been able to talk to him civilly even about those. I consider him a friend and will defend him.

Anonymous Anon1 May 29, 2015 9:19 PM  

Eric is a SJW, Dave.

Watch your back.

Anonymous BGS May 29, 2015 9:24 PM  

How hard is it for a successful person to plan and execute a plan for suicide? "Several attempts" ...

Has anyone ever discovered if the banker "suicides" are members of a tribe associated with banking or not?


http://io9.com/someone-will-livetweet-vox-days-debut-novel-for-charity-1707747639 Hilarity all round.

She is not tweeting the book but her reaction to it. I guess it will be a challenge to say "I am offended" in many different ways under 140 spaces.

Blogger Nate May 29, 2015 9:31 PM  

hey guys... The ATF Show goes live at 9 central. T minus 30 minutes. Dread Ilk Radio. Y'all come!

Blogger Nate May 29, 2015 9:32 PM  

links are at my blog.

bloggerblaster.blogspot.com

Anonymous zeno the Restrained May 29, 2015 9:48 PM  

Its Friday! Voxiversity Eve!

I can hardly wait....Machiavelli...Montecuccoli...Vauban...Fred the Great.

Fred the Great reminds me of the former Raiders owner, Al Davis:

"Just war, Baby!"

Yah. Get your war on Bitchez.

Woo Woo Boo Ya Hoo!

Anonymous BGS May 29, 2015 9:49 PM  

Guess who will be paying for high speed internet access for LaTrina's 27 illegitimate crack babies?
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2015/05/29/subsidized-broadband-the-obama-phone-program-applied-to-internet-access/

Anonymous BGS May 29, 2015 9:54 PM  

You can comment on the blog https://www.fcc.gov/blog/lifeline-low-income-americans

Anonymous BGS May 29, 2015 10:34 PM  

Nate thorium power is almost to what you talked about on the show
http://www.whydontyoutrythis.com/2014/03/this-car-runs-for-100-years-without-refueling-the-thorium.html
“We're building this to power the rest of the world,” Stevens said. He believes a thorium turbine about the size of an air conditioning unit could more provide cheap power for whole restaurants, hotels, office buildings, even small towns in areas of the world without electricity. At some point, thorium could power individual homes.

Blogger J Thomas May 29, 2015 10:40 PM  

Did someone say something about tits?

Anonymous VFM.0157 aka Forrest Bishop May 29, 2015 10:41 PM  

You guys are really milking the tit jokes.

Blogger Dave Freer May 29, 2015 10:41 PM  

Anon1 - I've known him, worked with him for 16 years. I'm getting a crick in my neck ;-). I don't think he's a modern SJW.

Blogger Thi Thi May 29, 2015 10:41 PM  

He now does what weber used to do which is give new authors an established name to write with and makes bank

tuyển sinh du học nhật bản 2015
cong ty xuat khau lao dong nhat ban uy tin nhat

Anonymous Scintan May 29, 2015 10:48 PM  

I consider him a friend and will defend him.

Someone being your friend should be completely irrelevant. If the man is right, defend him. If the man is wrong, don't. That's the position you should take no matter how you're related to him, or to any person.

And Flint was clearly in the wrong here. If you really are his friend, you should "take him aside" and talk some sense into him. He needs to admit his screw up. and apologize

Otherwise, he's just a run of the mill douche bag who doesn't deserve your defense of his character.

Anonymous BGS May 29, 2015 10:56 PM  

Nate- Mosins are great for burying in your yard, with a couple spam cans. They are also good as extras for the zombie apocalypse.

Blogger Zimri May 29, 2015 11:28 PM  

"Flint suffered for his activism"- apparently he didn't suffer enough.

Doing stupid things hurts, and it *should* hurt.

Blogger John Wright May 29, 2015 11:30 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger John Wright May 29, 2015 11:38 PM  

"Someone being your friend should be completely irrelevant. If the man is right, defend him. If the man is wrong, don't."

I wonder if this is a Catholic versus Protestant thing, or just a matter of personal taste. I say defend your friends first, taking on faith they are in the right even if they seem in the wrong. Serve your lord when he argues with the baron, serve the baron when he argues with the king, serve the king when he argues with the emperor, and bow to your local saint who was born in your hometown. And never side with the Feds, because even when they are in the right (Brown v Board of Education) they are using their rightness to break the law rather than uphold it.

Maybe I just have a feudal mind, but the willingness to uphold principle over personal love is what allows for horrors like the Soviet Union, where families put party above parents.

Not that defending friends does not also entail risks of grave evil, but it is another century, not this one, which must worry about those excesses.

Anonymous Scintan May 29, 2015 11:45 PM  

I say defend your friends first, taking on faith they are in the right even if they seem in the wrong.

I was raised Catholic. I left when the idiocy of the Church's position on purgatory drove me away, but I still attend Catholic masses and watch Catholic television to this day.

Still, I can barely even fathom allowing myself to have so low a level of moral fiber as to defend my friend when he is wrong. By doing so, I'd be failing my friend as well as myself. The way to help a friend who's in the wrong is to show him the error of his ways and to help him fix, or atone for, his mistake. Your position is essentially a defense of dishonesty, which would be an affront to God.

And saying that such an approach allows for "horrors like the Soviet Union" is a straw man not even worth burning.

Anonymous VFM.0157 aka Forrest Bishop May 29, 2015 11:52 PM  

The marketing director for Protein World apparently attended the same war college as Vox Day.

...The company’s outspoken marketing boss Richard Staveley told Breitbart London: “It’s a big middle finger to everybody who bothered to sign that stupid [SJW] petition in the UK. It’s a fat F-U to them all. You could say that the London protestors helped pay for the New York campaign”.

...we’ve got ads booked on 50 per cent of all of the New York subway’s rolling stock. It will be an unmissable blanket coverage of Renee and yellow.“The trains will be covered inside – ads above passenger’s heads and also on the train partitions. “It’s designed to be a full-on onslaught. We also have digital billboards showing eight-second slots on every of New York subway entrance."

Marketing has come a long way from "We are the World" to "Let's Supersize that FU".

Blogger Cail Corishev May 30, 2015 12:00 AM  

Still, I can barely even fathom allowing myself to have so low a level of moral fiber as to defend my friend when he is wrong.

It's a bit like "hate the sin, love the sinner." You can defend the friend without defending the wrong. I don't know whether it's a Catholic thing either, but I know where he's coming from.

Just yesterday I was talking to someone who made some accusations about a very good friend of mine (nothing criminal, let's say "rude and hurtful"). First I said that didn't sound like him, and when she insisted that she had the facts straight, I told her that I wouldn't defend those acts if he did them, but I could vouch for him being a good man who's always done right by me. And I will be talking to him to find out what's going on and tell him what I think if it seems necessary.

Of course, it's one thing when you're friends with someone who normally does the right thing but has gotten off track momentarily. It's quite another to be friends with a full-blown SJW, since they're always wrong. Why would you be friends with such a person in the first place? (I'm not referring to Mr. Flint here, because I don't know that he's a SJW; I'm just talking about SJWs in general.)

Blogger Blackburn #0040 May 30, 2015 12:05 AM  

Moar tits!! 6 sounds like a nice round number.

Minions, minions, minions. My dear numbered brothers and sisters. How quickly we forget. Do none of you remember the exquisite pain when Malwyn, with her spiked whip and 6 tits, branded our numbers on us. Now, I cannot be sure she has 6 tits. I am only repeating the rumors I have heard. For my branding my hands were bound tightly behind my back while hanging upside down from rusty chains digging into my ankles. By the time Malwyn entered the chamber the blood from my ankles had run the length of my torso into my eyes. I heard the clicking of her heals on the cold stone floor and blinked a few times to clear my eyes enough to catch a glimpse of the 5" spiked heals of her, um..., work boots. She said nothing as she used tongs to index the wheels on the red hot branding iron to my personal number. A quick touch on my forehead and the smoke and steam blinded me once again as she made her exit from the chamber. The assistant, mumbling under his breath in what sounded like Finnish, lowered me to the floor as I heard screams from the other chambers.

Anonymous Anonymous May 30, 2015 12:18 AM  

sorry Vox, this Chactaw cant comment because an Apashe, whatever .

Anonymous Scintan May 30, 2015 12:36 AM  

It's a bit like "hate the sin, love the sinner." You can defend the friend without defending the wrong.

Vouching for general character is not the same as defending a specific incident.

Blogger Dave Freer May 30, 2015 1:14 AM  

Scintan, you've more or less guessed what I am indeed doing. Still, I'd expect my friends to to stand up for me, while they did that. Cail also more-or-less pegs it with the fact Eric and I may disagree about the Hugos but I know he's gone to bat for me, twice when my stiff neck and stupidity (which saying exactly what you think can be) would have landed me dire financial (and thus personal) strife. I guess an award is not as important to me as a guy who has done - to no gain for himself - a fair bit for my career. I know he's done the same for fair number of other people. And honestly, if you don't like it, well, that's something I will have to live with. I have spent my life (diving, rock climbing) making decisions on who I trust and who I can risk my life with. I'm still alive so a)I haven't got it wrong... yet, b) I know when I make the wrong decision, there'll be consequences. I accept that. Paint me as stupid but solid in my friendships. That is what I am.

John Wright, I suspect my ideas of good things to do would fill you with horror, but I'd have you belay me, or be the guy I'm relying on to haul me out of that underwater cave by my feet, or as crew on my boat, any day. Spot judgement :-) And no, I'm not Catholic (although, this place being where it is, I do go to Mass at the Catholic Church. There are not a lot of Christians here, and we find more in common than pushing us apart.).

Anonymous Scintan May 30, 2015 1:31 AM  

Paint me as stupid but solid in my friendships. That is what I am.

No. It's not "stupid but solid in friendships" to defend a friend when you know he's in the wrong. It's low moral character. As one who attends mass, you should already know this.

And we all spend our lives making decisions on who we trust, so that cuts no ice.

Blogger Dave Freer May 30, 2015 1:44 AM  

(shrug) Then believe I have low moral character. I don't mind. I'll leave God to sort it out.

And well, there are decisions on trust, which may cost you a few dollars or hurt your pride or cause minor damage. And decisions on trust which will cost you a lot more. They're not quite the same, qualitatively.

Anonymous Scintan May 30, 2015 1:47 AM  

(shrug) Then believe I have low moral character. I don't mind. I'll leave God to sort it out.

(shrug) He's already done that, in the bible. Something about liars and deceivers.

Blogger Dave Freer May 30, 2015 2:03 AM  

Scintan. Excellent. Then both of us are happy, me trusting in His infinite goodness and mercy (I'll need it) and you in believing I am a liar and deceiver and will be judged as that. We can leave the matter there.

Blogger Dave Freer May 30, 2015 2:41 AM  

Scintan - it also strikes me that we may well be talking past each other - you say
"Vouching for general character is not the same as defending a specific incident."
It may have escaped your notice that John Carlton (who is also a friend) is quoting me in several of his cites, disproving Eric's points. Ergo, I don't agree with Eric. I also said that here. I do vouch for his general character, and that is what I was doing.

Anonymous Scintan May 30, 2015 3:03 AM  

it also strikes me that we may well be talking past each other

I specifically noted the difference between vouching for character in general, and defending a person who's wrong in a specific instance (12:36 am). I don't really know what more I could have said to make that clear. Defending that friend, in a case where you know he's wrong, is breaking of one of the Ten Commandments (false witness), and demonstrates low moral character. That's all I've been saying. Loyalty to a deserving friend, in general, is an admirable trait, and we'd be better off if more people demonstrated such loyalty.

And, just to emphasize, I'm not talking about basic differences of opinion here. I'm talking about clear instances of right and wrong. I'm not sure we were talking past each other as much as you were getting defensive thinking I was specifically targeting you when I was making a general point.

Whether that's the case or not, I think we'd likely be in at least pretty close general agreement, if we were sitting down talking this out instead of trying to express everything in occasional posts.

Blogger ChicagoRefugee May 30, 2015 3:03 AM  

From Wiki from E.M. Forster's "What I Believe"

“If I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend I hope I should have the guts to betray my country”. He goes on to explain:

Such a choice may scandalize the modern reader, and he may stretch out his patriotic hand to the telephone at once and ring up the police. It would not have shocked Dante, though. Dante places Brutus and Cassius in the lowest circle of Hell because they had chosen to betray their friend Julius Caesar rather than their country Rome.

Blogger pdwalker May 30, 2015 6:51 AM  

Offtopic,

Dave, I recently reread your Rats, Bats & Vats books. I enjoyed them even more the second time around. You can pass that on to Mr Flint as well.

Anonymous patriot May 30, 2015 8:22 AM  

"I wonder if this is a Catholic versus Protestant thing, or just a matter of personal taste. I say defend your friends first, taking on faith they are in the right even if they seem in the wrong. "

...another mystery solved...decades of pedophile priests and how they got away with it.

Blogger Steveo #238 May 30, 2015 8:46 AM  

@ John Wright -
I disagree John. Truth, integrity, honor, justice, servant leadership, etc., find their basis in objective Truth & are demonstrated in our imperfect pursuit of it - God's law for the both of us. Never tire in right-doing, not never tire in friend supporting. The principles that created the horror of the Soviet Union were not these principles; look to selfishness (especially this in respect to survival), greed, lust for power & status, deceit. This is the big lie & any country falls when these become their guiding principles, even as a man does. These are Satan's twisted parody of right. When you have this set of principles - even in good men, you have a Paterno-Sandusky affair, that as I understand it rightly brought down Paterno's legacy. If Joe had exact knowledge of Sandusky's rape of a 10 year old boy - can you imagine the different outcome were he to have pounded Sandusky into the ground?

Blogger Cail Corishev May 30, 2015 8:56 AM  

Patriot: Hey, that's original. I don't think "pedophile priest" jabs will ever get old, but keep testing that theory.

The word you're looking for is "loyalty." It's the reason why, if someone says, "Vox just tweeted that blacks should be exterminated!" we don't fall for it. He's earned that loyalty.

If you're friends with Bob, then presumably you think Bob is generally a good person who is an asset to humanity, more credit than debit. If Bob makes a mistake (or someone tells you he made a mistake), do you instantly condemn Bob, or do you remind yourself and others of Bob's good points to provide context? If the former, why would Bob be friends with you? Are you familiar with the term "fair-weather friend"?

Sure, loyalty can be abused. That's no reason to discard it entirely.

Anonymous patriot May 30, 2015 9:08 AM  

if vox was a pedophile, I would expose and destroy him, even if he my friend.

would YOU?

how else do you describe decades of pedophile priests and cover-ups other than loyalty?

my point could just as easily been made using the Penn State/Sandusky example above. It was John "Rome or Die" Wright that brought sectarianism into this (as he always does).

Blogger Cail Corishev May 30, 2015 9:28 AM  

No one's argued for absolute or blind loyalty, so the pedophile strawman is pathetic and asspie.

We're talking about a balance between rectitude and loyalty. If only those who are right about everything at all times are granted your friendship, you won't have many friends.

Dave's friend isn't being accused of being a pedophile; he's being accused of having some faulty opinions. It's perfectly reasonable for Dave to stand up for his friend based on what he knows.

No, loyalty shouldn't go so far as to cover for a pedophile. Yes, it should mean a friend has earned some benefit of the doubt on things like faulty opinions until his perfidy has been well-proven. Is that too fine a distinction for you?

Anonymous FriarBob May 30, 2015 12:11 PM  

Heh, I have no problems whatsoever with defending the PERSON of a friend. You can decide "hey I like him anyway". You can even say "he has a good heart", or "he just made one mistake". No reason to discard the friendship INSTANTLY, barring doing something so far beyond the pale that he should be executed on the spot (and pedophilia would certainly fit that bill).

But if he truly does something wrong and you can't admit it that is IS wrong because he's your friend, you're as wrong as he is.

I don't think Freer crosses that line. He admits Flint is his friend, and basically says "he's wrong, but I like him anyway". And a key part of that is thankfulness for Flint helping him out in the past... and he SHOULD be grateful for that. To do otherwise is churlish and is essentially being the strawman caricature of a man that the SJW idiots FEEL they are fighting against (and who also almost never actually exists outside their fevered imaginations).

Anonymous BGS May 30, 2015 12:34 PM  

Penn State/Sandusky example above.

Sandusky went to the same jewish temple as the Penn State president, who was the only one with the power to make campus cops look the other way. But the teachers union fought for Sandusky to keep his benefits.

Blogger Hunsdon May 30, 2015 3:24 PM  

I thought there would have been more Mouser and the Rat Queen tit jokes, somehow.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents May 30, 2015 7:51 PM  

Dave Freer, if you are here, do you agree with your friend Eric Flint that Vox's views on race are the same as Hitler's?

Does your friend Flint respond to dialectic, or only to rhetoric?

Have you read today's entry in either Flint's blog or this one?

Blogger Jew613 May 30, 2015 10:50 PM  

Dave Freer, will we get a third Pyramid book?

If we do we will get an audible version?

Blogger Jew613 May 30, 2015 10:51 PM  

Dave Freer, will we get a third Pyramid book?

If we do we will get an audible version?

Blogger John Wright May 31, 2015 3:25 AM  

"I disagree John. Truth, integrity, honor, justice, servant leadership, etc., find their basis in objective Truth & are demonstrated in our imperfect pursuit of it - God's law for the both of us."

And, if you actually read the Bible, the parts where it talks about the tongue being a destroying fire, you would know one of those laws is not to listen to gossips.

As I said, this may be a Catholic versus Protestant thing, where the abstraction is more important than the particular, or it may just be my personal taste. I was careful to qualify my statement, and you ignored the qualification, basically to beat up on a strawman version of what I said.

As I said, this century, the Age of Ideology, does not need to worry about an overdose of personal loyalty or camaraderie any more than we need to worry about an overdose of Victorian prudery or a return of the Spanish Inquisition.

Which is not saying there are no arguments to be made against the Spanish Inquisition -- but the moment when you are boiling to death is the wrong moment to take all necessary steps and precautions to prevent freezing to death.

Blogger Steveo #238 May 31, 2015 9:49 AM  

The benefit of the doubt assuredly belongs to our friends, I certainly agree with you there.
As you say, “but the willingness to uphold principle over personal love is what allows for horrors like the Soviet Union…”. And that is where I disagreed. Failure to uphold principles first (God’s), is what allows for horrors like the Soviet Union. And incidentally, what merits your proscription against the Feds.

Perhaps, the less distracting contrary example may have been the Lyle & Erik Menendez? In any case, I can certainly accept your bracketed qualifications – mine was simply, if.
And I thank you, for the provoking thoughts as I yet practiced my writing much, but more importantly, as one learns around here, my thinking and my editing.

Blogger J Carlton May 31, 2015 9:20 PM  

I just want to point that my post was not about Vox per say. The only reason I mentioned Vox was that the SJW's have been waving him around like a black tar brush and using him to tar anything they don't like. Rather unjustly, as far as I can tell because I looked very hard and couldn't find any of the things they accuse Vox of on his blog. But then the SJWs did that same thing to Uncle Timmy and the columnists and editor at SFWA. The SJWs are not long on truth. The post was supposed to be more or less an open letter to Eric expressing how I felt about what Eric did to Brad on my thread the other day. If the post seems to be little strange, well that's because there's a certain amount of inside baseball and old stuff off Baen's Bar in there. I made it a point to not make Eric upset in his area at the bar, but when he came into my blog, well I felt free to express whatever I wanted. especially as I was rather pissed at him anyway. I never intended for that post to go viral the way it did. But that's the internet for you.

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