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Thursday, May 21, 2015

Three options

This is one of the first rational things I've seen the SJWs at File 770 produce in weeks:
Nick Mamatas on May 21, 2015 at 9:21 am said:

There are three options as far I can tell:

The Hugos being a product a fandom, much of the discussion around “fixing” the issue boils down either angry blog posts about white people (ie, admissions of pathetic whining defeat) or statistical wonkery (ie foolishness). These are all wrongheaded—slating is essentially a political issue, and political issues need political responses. There are three possible ones:

1. Suck It Up.
Probably a pretty good idea. This bed was made some years ago when blogging culture sparked a shift from significant social sanction when people tried to get votes by asking publicly for consideration to “obligatory” posts promoting their own work, and later, the work of their friends. Loud Blogs win; Loud Blogs Plus Online Workshop-Clubhouses win more; and Loud Blogs plus political discipline win even more. Why should only the Loud Bloggers people have decided that they personally like and are “friends”* with win? Eventually, it’ll all even out, especially as what is most likely to happen is that the SPs get nominated and then lose decisively year after year.

2. Castigate all campaigning, not just the campaigning you don’t like
Pandora’s Box isn’t necessarily open forever. However, you can’t close half a lid. It would take significant effort to change widespread attitudes, but it is not as though those attitudes have not changed before. If campaigning was always met with eye-rolling or even outright disgust, it would stop being so effective. Some people would betray and try to promote, but if the audience was inured to such appeals, it just wouldn’t work and hopefuls would eventually stop.

3. Counter-slates
We’ll almost certainly see attempts at counter-slates. I’m against the idea, but the current cry to vote “No Award” in all SP-dominated categories is itself a counter-slate after a fashion. Someone will come up with Happy Kittens and stump for non-binary PoCs or stories with lots of scene breaks or or or…well, that’s the problem. One counter-slate would likely thwart the SPs, more than one would not. And we’re sure to see more than one. Disciplined slate voting works best when only one side does it and the other side isn’t even a side. Two slates split demographically. Three or more, uh… At any rate, it all comes around to political discipline again. If some party were to launch a counter-slate next year, would others who found that slate imperfect let it by without critique and another alternative slate. (There are actually two Puppy slates, but they are largely similar.) There can be slates that are so attractive that many more people sign up to vote for the Hugos, but I strongly suspect that people overestimate the amount of outside “pull” these slates have; general Hugo chatter across blogs and Twitter in general is driving increased education about supporting Worldcon memberships, and then there are all the free books voters might receive, which is also a new thing. One counter-slate would be effective, though of course the cure could be worse than the disease, and more than one would likely not.

So aggrieved Hugo Award followers, which shall it be?

Two is still the best bet.
This is at least dealing with observable reality, unlike those who fantasize that tinkering with the rules is going to slow down any group that contains at least one individual with a brain, or worse, those who think that MOAR DISQUALIFY is magically going to accomplish anything. So, let's consider their options from our perspective.

1. Suck it up

This is what they should have done. It would have taken a fair amount of the wind out of our sails. However, most of the potential benefits are now lost since they've already motivated our side through their histrionics and media-planted stories.

2. Castigate all campaigning

Won't happen. Far too many people on their side are guilty of it, and far too many people are already invested in the idea that what is very, very bad for us is just fine for the Tor set and everyone who bought memberships for their children and extended families.

3. Counter-slates

This is the only real option for them now. It's also the one that is most frightening for them, because it puts an end to their gentleman's agreement to stick to logrolling and whisper campaigns as long as no one gets too greedy, and forces them to come out and compete in the open. They hate open competition on principle and the idea that they might come out for a fair fight next year and lose will strike them as so terrifying as to be beyond imagining. Furthermore, because they really, really care about winning awards, it's going to be much harder for them to put together a slate, much less find the numbers to support it in the disciplined manner required now that a bloc of 40 votes is no longer sufficient to put something on the shortlist.

I'm not saying that Sad Puppies will automatically win a battle of slates, but that sort of honest and open competition suits us much better than it suits them. But I expect that next year there will be at least two rival slates, one of which will be centered around the Torlings.

Labels:

108 Comments:

Anonymous What are your names, wayfarers? May 21, 2015 5:38 PM  

Nick is tiresome, but he's atypically intelligent, or at least perceptive.

Blogger CarpeOro May 21, 2015 5:44 PM  

I'm thinking Eloi and Morlock slates for the SJW crowd. I could be wrong, but that does kind of fit the ones that run in that herd.

Blogger FALPhil May 21, 2015 5:57 PM  

Vox said:
They hate open competition on principle and the idea that they might come out for a fair fight next year and lose will strike them as so terrifying as to be beyond imagining.


This would presuppose that they understand that the works that they would nominate and vote for do not have broad appeal. Do you really think that they understand that? Extrapolating (if they are bright enough), it becomes readily apparent that, up until Sad/rabid Puppies, Hugos had become an exclusive club with heavy-handed gatekeeping, or more properly, guardrailing. Is this not the kind of thing that SJWs rail about? Have they in fact become the entrenched Establishment that they rose up against in the past?

I think you are absolutely correct that they would not be able to put together a slate with a disciplined group to support it. I think it has something to do with SJW attention spans.

I also wonder what personality trait makes one afraid of open competition. Are SJWs suffering from the same psychological maladies as gammas?

OpenID kbswift May 21, 2015 5:58 PM  

The puppies should be thankful they don't have to worry about fulfilling imaginary quotas of having enough non-white, non-male, non-cis, non-ableist authors for their slate to be palatable to their own side. Much easier to vote for good story-telling.

Blogger automatth62 May 21, 2015 6:00 PM  

Be good, SWJ, and let who will be clever.

Anonymous Andrew Spooner Jr. May 21, 2015 6:00 PM  

I've been getting disemvowelled and censored in many comment and group spaces. After getting banned from several groups and comment sections for mentioning religion in a manner that was completely on topic, including the Facebook Anti-Sjw and Honey badger groups, I decided to create an uncensored, loosely moderated space for the Ilk to discuss anti-social justice issues. I would invite you all to post there. The group is called "Death to Social Justice" and the link is under my name. Here are the group rules if anyone is interested:

1. This group is about opposition to social justice, PC censorship, and thought control in all of it's forms, including social justice, cultural marxism, political correctness, feminism, etc. Try to keep your posts vaguely on topic. If it get's stupidly spammy I'll step in, but until that happens, I officially don't give a shit what you talk about.

2. If you are offended by any thing you read here, or anything you experience in life for that matter, it is your own fault and it should make you feel like a failure as a human being because you are.

3. If you are offended by adults cursing, then there is something seriously wrong with you. Stop being an insufferable little pussy.

4. There is no moderator. The only time I will step in is if someone is doing something illegal that will get the group shut down, like posting porn or trying to doxx someone. I just kind of hang out here and watch the circus. So if you have a problem with someone, then walk away. Don't come crying to me about it.

5. I don't ban trolls. They are the best part of having a group. They are the comic relief. Every court needs a jester. If you are so bad at rhetoric that you can't make a troll back down and run away with their tail between their legs feeling like an idiot, then don't engage them. Walk away. Or, a much better idea, use them for rhetorical practice.

6. If you enjoy stringing social justice trolls along and making them show their intellectual ass in public for the peanut gallery to laugh at, welcome home! This is the group for you.

Blogger Aeoli Pera May 21, 2015 6:15 PM  

Which will prevail, the unrelenting SJW stupidity or the unyielding SJW deception?

Tune in tomorrow for more!

Blogger CarpeOro May 21, 2015 6:17 PM  

"6. If you enjoy stringing social justice trolls along and making them show their intellectual ass in public for the peanut gallery to laugh at, welcome home! This is the group for you."

Mostly I think I'd prefer string sjt shrunken heads on a necklace, but alas at present I am looking for a different job and avoiding the sjw hr types by flying under the radar. Maybe in the future. Good luck. #105

Blogger Aeoli Pera May 21, 2015 6:18 PM  

Honestly, the only surprise so far is that they haven't already tried to SWAT Larry Correia or something really dastardly.

Speaking of, what happened with that bomb threat?

Blogger Jim May 21, 2015 6:19 PM  

So aggrieved Hugo Award followers, which shall it be?

All three are anathema to them, so the choice isn't theirs.

Anonymous Nathan May 21, 2015 6:22 PM  

There were rumors that it might happen. Glad saner heads prevailed. If someone gets SWATted, though, it's time to break the toy.

Blogger rcocean May 21, 2015 6:28 PM  

Isn't it more likely they will simply rig the rules? I don't see them competing if they can help it. Unlike the Right, The Left just wants to win and if they can't win under the current rules of the game, they find a way to change the rules.

Blogger FALPhil May 21, 2015 6:33 PM  

Honestly, the only surprise so far is that they haven't already tried to SWAT Larry Correia or something really dastardly.

Considering that Larry is probably on a first-name basis with around 50% of the cops in Utah, that would be a stupid stunt to pull.

Blogger Cail Corishev May 21, 2015 6:35 PM  

I don't think lack of discipline would be what causes their counter-slate to fail. After all, enforcing group-think among themselves is the one thing SJWs are really good at. The real problem is that the works they want to promote mostly suck. They're not the sort of stories you want to promote openly, talking about them and quoting from them at length. If you do that, people will notice how much they suck. Their works have to be promoted quietly behind the scenes, with lots of SJW in-group signalling so everyone knows who's getting the votes this year and why without in-depth discussion of the works themselves.

But that only worked as long as they had their insular group of voters that no one was paying attention to, and that's over.

If they try to compete slate-versus-slate, it won't matter how disciplined they are with a single slate; their works just won't hold up to that kind of scrutiny. The longer that went on, the more it'd become an advertisement for the authors they hate.

Blogger harry12 May 21, 2015 6:38 PM  

Slow afternoon here so I was trying to picture a Torling. It coalesced as a chubby Smeg er, Smee uh, Gollum. A chubby, rainbow-haired, nose-ringed Gollum.

Blogger FALPhil May 21, 2015 6:39 PM  

Honestly, the only surprise so far is that they haven't already tried to SWAT Larry Correia or something really dastardly.

Considering that Larry is probably on a first-name basis with around 50% of the cops in Utah, that would be a stupid stunt to pull.

Blogger Giuseppe May 21, 2015 6:42 PM  

It's strange...I wake at night, roaming the house speaking in Latin...
Delenda Est! Delenda Est! Delenda Est!

I also have this urge to purchase a gladius. And three metric tons of salt. Peculiar indeed.

Blogger Cataline Sergius May 21, 2015 6:44 PM  

I agree, so long as we maintain discipline. They will have to run counter slates. If nothing else, just so that they can get some of their nominees on the ballot.

This is going to go over remarkably badly in certain SJW quarters. Specifically with those SJWs who feel it's their turn to have a Hugo and don't get the nod from the Beast That Rules Patrick.

Blogger Nikis-Knight May 21, 2015 6:58 PM  

The infighting in the slate making on the sjw side will be delicious.

Blogger S1AL May 21, 2015 7:14 PM  

Nick Mamatas, unlike most of the anti-puppy commentators, isn't an SJW or even a hard-liberal... he's just a snob. Specifically, he's the sort of snob who very much cares about style ahead of story and characters, or really anything else. And he's convinced that this particular taste of his is and should be one of the driving factors behind Hugo awards.

I can at least respect that position, even if I totally disagree with it.

Blogger BCM May 21, 2015 7:14 PM  

Oh my, watching them try to agree on a slate will be entertaining as heck. Will they be able to avoid turning on each other over whose turn it is and who is most diverse? Especially as they need to bring in more people in order to give their votes for nominations the required strength...

Blogger Joshua Dyal May 21, 2015 7:19 PM  

The infighting in the slate making on the sjw side will be delicious.

I know, right? It's one thing for this guy to identify a possible solution to their fix. It'll be another thing entirely to pull it off with the guys he's got to work with.

Blogger Daniel May 21, 2015 7:20 PM  

Mamatas would almost be salvageable, despite his intellectual limitations and refusal to concede hopelessly lost minor points...unfortunately, he has tolerated the SJW so long that he is certainly doomed to betrayal by them.

After all, the worst thing that can happen to him is the SJWS take his advice. Because option 2 would fail even if they held the line...his name would be Mudd to the SJW crowd.

One of the massive drawbacks of having the sjw on your side is that if you are reasonable, the sjw will shoot you first.

Blogger Cataline Sergius May 21, 2015 7:24 PM  

What are the opposing factions likely to look like?

The most obvious one, is the one that is already there. Post child baring hags. The type who ruined the SCA. The kind of women who tell me, with perfect conviction that "Paladin of Souls" is easily Lois McMaster Bujold's greatest work, (not joking about that BTW).

This faction has already decided they are voting for Lois' next book. It features a post child baring Cordelia.

Depending on it's quality, this could actually be a problem for the VFMs of ELE. After all if it really is the best book of the year we will have to vote for it.

(*The Cruel Cataline Smile spreads itself across his lips*)

Anonymous BGS May 21, 2015 7:27 PM  

I might have to change my name to BigGayMarx so I can get on their slate for "If you where a closeted capitalist my love"

Blogger Daniel May 21, 2015 7:27 PM  

I don't respect him because he is a snob about something as empty as style, and he doesn't have the wisdom to admit some of his more laughable errors. I don't care about his position.

What he is is more tolerable because he isn't a drooling headcase. I think I have read fiction of his once and thought it was pretty good, and he is a decent writer.

That isn't going to save people like him who ended up picking team SJW for personal strategic reasons.

Blogger Phunctor May 21, 2015 7:32 PM  

Does this count as "driven before us"?

Anonymous Nathan May 21, 2015 7:39 PM  

There's still a lot of wishful thinking here. One: we'll go away because we lose at the awards. We've said repeatedly that we wouldn't get a fair shake at the awards because the electorate voted more upon who created a story than the quality of the story. Two: that the group can put social pressure on people not of the group. Three: that there isn't incentive for someone of the group to shout louder in advertisement than those voice trying to silence the campaigning. (Prisoner's Dilemma, anyone?)

As for the objecting to a slate, fracturing all the slates is a feature, not a problem. Or is he trying to focus on just beating a combined Puppies vote?

That said, he's closer than most. He's still trying to play soccer against an NFL football team, though.

Anonymous WaterBoy May 21, 2015 7:46 PM  

Vox: "3. Counter-slates

This is the only real option for them now. It's also the one that is most frightening for them, because it puts an end to their gentleman's agreement to stick to logrolling and whisper campaigns as long as no one gets too greedy, and forces them to come out and compete in the open.
"


Agree that it's the most viable option for them, but don't agree that they won't be able to scheme behind closed doors to do so. If the alleged kingmakers were able to logroll and whisper campaign on a small scale so effectively, I can see a joint Anti-Puppy cabal doing something similar in private albeit for a larger group.

After all, they don't have to actually decide on the eventual winners together -- just the five nominees in each category who will push all the Puppies off the ballot. And this is where the raw numbers will come into play.

Anonymous AlteredFate May 21, 2015 7:51 PM  

I hope I'm wrong or that I missed something but isn't the biggest problem facing the SP and RP slates that the SJWs (or their sympathizers) are still in control of the vote counting? What is stopping them from manipulating the vote? I can see how the nomination process could have slipped by the gatekeepers as they likely weren't expecting that kind of turnout from our side, but if they can cheat I have no doubt they will cheat and vote fixing would be the easiest way to turn this around in their favor, IMO.

Anonymous Ridip May 21, 2015 7:53 PM  

OT: I just heard from someone in Spokane that Sasquan has upped it's floor space to 90,000 sq. ft.

Blogger SirHamster (#201) May 21, 2015 7:58 PM  

After all if it really is the best book of the year we will have to vote for it.

We're not Sad Puppies. We'll do what destroys SJWs. Whether that is from voting for the best work ... or not.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan May 21, 2015 7:59 PM  

Yeah the people who gave us trigger warnings and safe spaces can really handle some Critical Theory rammed hard into their fourth point of contact, haha.

Whatever your opinion on the movie "Fury Road" it is but an example of right leaning Critical Theory, and frankly the only interesting reviews and opinions, SJWs have nothing, absolutely nothing to offer.

Anonymous Rob May 21, 2015 8:04 PM  

I'm a little confused on the actual awards. Why does the writer (and others I've seen) think it is assured that the SP/RP slates will lose? Doesn't the success of the RP/SP slates indicate that their supporters represent a significant voting block? Aren't the nominations and final awards voted on by the same people? Perhaps I just don't understand how the voting works...

I personally only signed up as a member after the nominees were announced, and, based on what I've read so far, I'm almost certainly voting for SP/RP nominees over their counterparts in most categories. Surely others are doing the same.

Anonymous tiredofitall May 21, 2015 8:09 PM  

"Eventually, it’ll all even out, especially as what is most likely to happen is that the SPs get nominated and then lose decisively year after year."

Wow, the delusion is strong with this one. As far as I'm able to tell getting Hugos was never actually a winning condition for the puppies slates. Just getting nominated and pushing SJW shitheaps off the list was good enough, and if by chance a few puppy nominated authors get the nod it's a bonus.

The fact that he thinks we'll be thwarted now and forever is wishful thinking of the highest order. All it takes is one decisive win and their playhouse will come tumbling down.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents May 21, 2015 8:10 PM  

Cataline Sergius
The most obvious one, is the one that is already there. Post child baring hags. The type who ruined the SCA.

Huh. So again it's not just me? I always viewed the SCA as "mildly violent nerds" back in the 80's, tolerable to drink with and maybe bang shields once in a while, but that was OK. Then at some point in the 90's it became just way too self-serious and pretentious and there was always some post-menopausal Boomer broad with her badly performed "Healer" role mucking things up.

As with trying to read SF after 1995, I figured it was Just Me. Not just me? Well, well, well.

Anonymous pseudotsuga* May 21, 2015 8:14 PM  

Cail: They're not the sort of stories you want to promote openly, talking about them and quoting from them at length.

One of the best things we can do here is actually PUBLICIZE these sorts of stories out beyond their intended in-group audience. Let a whole bunch of people look at them.
If they are good stories, then they should be noted as such by a large number of people who are honest reviewers. I find that the current batch of Hugo graphic novel nominees, for example, are not ones I want to promote openly, talking about them and quoting them at length. They are popcorn, flavored with SJW tears. I eat a bowl (metaphorically, of course), and it does not fill me (and my stomach starts to roil a bit). There is no solid food there, nothing to digest slowly or to build up a strong body. The Torbots, of course, believe that the whole point is how deeply SJW flavored the popcorn is.

OpenID mattse001 May 21, 2015 8:25 PM  

The problems with #1 and #2 are the same: they require people with self-discipline and maturity. If the SJWs were those types of people, we wouldn't even be here.
#3 is how they'll go. Furthermore, they'll try to get around the "splitting the vote" problem just like all leftists do: they'll form a cartel behind the scenes and enforce discipline in a totalitarian manner.

Anonymous Earl May 21, 2015 8:29 PM  

Vox, you really understated number 3!

Option 1 would be a win for Rabid Puppies.
Options 2 and 3 would be a win for Sad Puppies.

Option 2 and 3 were exactly what Sad Puppies set out to do: stop the unfair blacklisting of conservative authors and/or bring fair competition back to the awards.

So, SJWs can't have any of that, can they?

Anonymous jack May 21, 2015 8:32 PM  

Giuseppe May 21, 2015 6:42 PM

If you really want a Gladius they can be had. The real thing. Or, they could have about 8 years ago. I got mine in Atlanta. They are authentic replicas that the makers claim are better that the ones the Legions used. Because better steel these days. Mine is razor sharp and has the complete feel of a battle sword. The sheath was junk.
The company is Museum Replicas Limited. www.windlass.com
11-A Rajpur Road, Dehradun - 248-001 India.
This was some years ago and I have not tested the site.

Anonymous d12 May 21, 2015 8:35 PM  

I'm not saying that Sad Puppies will automatically win a battle of slates

Wait, Rabid or Sad? Do Larry and Brad know you are speaking for the Sad Puppies?

Anonymous jack May 21, 2015 8:36 PM  

Giuseppe: Forgot to mention. If you order one be sure and specify that it be sharpened. Otherwise, it will have a dull edge. Do let them sharpen the sword. They have the touch and when they do be careful around the blade, It will be razor sharp.

Anonymous BGS May 21, 2015 8:36 PM  

OT: I just heard from someone in Spokane that Sasquan has upped it's floor space to 90,000 sq. ft.

The more important question is if they will have proper ventilation for convention funk. They probably need some "safe spaces" for people triggered by our t shirts, so how would they deal with us wearing gas masks. http://gizmodo.com/5647921/the-bra-that-doubles-as-a-gas-mask-is-now-for-sale

Anonymous WaterBoy May 21, 2015 8:37 PM  

Also left unstated by the original poster is option #4: Rules Change.

While the WorldCon change methodology is such that it won't eliminate slates in 2016, you can be reasonably assured that something will get the nominal approval at the business meeting this year.

Not that it will see any success unless something like a juried nominating committee is installed, however.

Anonymous jack May 21, 2015 8:38 PM  

Andrew Spooner Jr. May 21, 2015 6:00 PM

Andrew: sounds awesome but when I click on your name it goes to Facebook signup. Is it only FB or do you have a regular blog for this? I refuse to do FB.
Thanks.

Anonymous BGS May 21, 2015 8:42 PM  

Giuseppe: Forgot to mention. If you order one be sure and specify that it be sharpened

I don't think he is allowed to have sharp knives. Didn't they try to ban pointy kitchen knives in the UK last year? .That will really help with the beheadings.

Blogger George May 21, 2015 8:43 PM  

The one thing all the SJWs assume is that there are more of them then there are of us. Since they likely don't know anyone that will vote for the SP/RP candidates there is nothing in their experience that would give them a clue that perhaps they are the minority in fandom. They seem to think that the VFM and the Dread ilk are nothing more than Vox playing with sock puppets.

If they fail in their "No Award" gambit, they will assume that Vox found some way to cheat. It has to be sad to be so unaware that you are convinced no reasonable person can disagree with you. It is just another example of "When a Conservative disagrees with a Liberal, he knows they are wrong. When Liberal disagrees with a Conservative, he knows they are evil."

Blogger JACIII May 21, 2015 8:49 PM  

4) Have SJW ghetto category Hugo awards.
Screeching Harpy Feminist SF&F
Unabashed Kiddie Diddler SF&F
Unabashed Kiddie Diddler Apologist SF&F
Lesbian Dorito Night SF&F
Human Pachyderm SF&F
Hirsute MuuMuu Enthusiast SF&F
High Altitude Feminine Pedestal SF&F
Surgical Sexual Mutilation SF&F
Cats Are People Too SF&F

If they won't do it the Ilk Should seriously consider establishing a shadow Hugo for just this purpose.

Anonymous Danby May 21, 2015 8:54 PM  

#3 is how they'll go. Furthermore, they'll try to get around the "splitting the vote" problem just like all leftists do: they'll form a cartel behind the scenes and enforce discipline in a totalitarian manner.

And if other people nominate an SJW slate, consisting entirely of Coloreds, Freaks, and Wymmins? What then? Not that any of the VFMs would do such a thing. We could never think of it our own selfs, and have no personal agency anyway, just like every woman in every SF novel ever.. But any Leftist could create a counter-slate, one to tickle the hearts of any pink-blooded SJW. Will they maintain fire discipline under those circumstances?

No

Anonymous jack May 21, 2015 8:59 PM  

Guiseppe:
One last comment and I swear to one and all to end the Gladius. The link to Museum is below. Use it. It takes you to the Gladius page. Cost is $245; sharpening fee extra. My sword is the Pompeii model. The Centurion model looks like they got the scabbard thing solved. Has the proper shoulder loop to hang it at your right side. Hope you are right handed. They have swords seeming without end. I may get one of the Spartan ones; probably the 300 sword.

http://www.museumreplicas.com/s-39-swords-other-weapons.aspx

Anonymous VFM.0157 aka Forrest Bishop May 21, 2015 9:02 PM  


"I don't think lack of discipline would be what causes their counter-slate to fail. After all, enforcing group-think among themselves is the one thing SJWs are really good at. The real problem is that the works they want to promote mostly suck. They're not the sort of stories you want to promote openly, talking about them and quoting from them at length. If you do that, people will notice how much they suck. Their works have to be promoted quietly behind the scenes, with lots of SJW in-group signalling so everyone knows who's getting the votes this year and why without in-depth discussion of the works themselves." -Cail Corishev May 21, 2015 6:35 PM

For us who don't read much SFF anymore (guess why?), have SJWs openly reviewed, and discussed their works in depth (ha!) in the past few years? I don't mean a blurb or a backwater blog, but discussion among themselves on their main sites (File 770?). The idea- dialectical discourse- might be so alien to them that they are unable to do this. Maybe black knights can be of assistance here in derailing whatever passes for their own 'debates', not with the substandard SJW trolling we always see here, but by drawing them out on their own points. Take it to the howler-monkey level as if one of them.

Blogger Nate May 21, 2015 9:14 PM  

I personally guarantee there will be at least 4 slates next year.

That's assuming SP/RP combine. I am guaranteeing at least 3 CHORF slates.

Anonymous Nathan May 21, 2015 9:21 PM  

"That's assuming SP/RP combine. I am guaranteeing at least 3 CHORF slates."

Possibly even one or more slates centered around a webforum or website as well, based on some of the conversations I've seen.

Blogger Nate May 21, 2015 9:23 PM  

like I say... it may be more... and probably will be... but I guarantee there will be at least 3 CHORF slates.

Write it down. Note it.

Rub my nose in it if I'm wrong.

Blogger Sam Hall May 21, 2015 9:27 PM  

Take a look

Voting Expert Asks Help To Attend Sasquan

Anonymous VFM.0157 aka Forrest Bishop May 21, 2015 9:37 PM  

"That's assuming SP/RP combine. I am guaranteeing at least 3 CHORF slates."

Possibly even one or more slates centered around a webforum or website as well, based on some of the conversations I've seen.

As a Concerned Progressive, Novel1, CHORF1 Slate is clearly a better choice than Novel1, CHORF2 Slate.
The author of N1C1 has WXYZ SJW-Approved political, racial, and sexual characteristics while the author of N1C2 only has XYZ.
Furthermore, N1C1 bashes conservatives, Christians, men, straights, and white people 232 times and N1C2 only 189 times- clearly an objective metric of its superiority.

Blogger Tom Kratman May 21, 2015 9:45 PM  

You all may find interesting today's Amazon review action wrt Big Boys Don't Cry.

Anonymous Jack Amok May 21, 2015 9:49 PM  


Considering that Larry is probably on a first-name basis with around 50% of the cops in Utah, that would be a stupid stunt to pull.


Well, like the man said, it's surprising they haven't done it.


OT: I just heard from someone in Spokane that Sasquan has upped it's floor space to 90,000 sq. ft.

Must've needed more floor space to accommodate the personal appearance of the Toad of Tor.

Anonymous malcolm May 21, 2015 9:51 PM  

My prediction: There will be multiple slates next year, by the same people who are vehemently against slates this year (I'm talking about the ones who write that they are against slates no mater who makes them. They're voting No Award not because of SP, but because slates).

They will bend over backwards to explain why they are not making and recommending a slate. Excuses will include:
1) This is only for this year, until the proposed rule change sets in in 2017
2) This is not a slate, its an anti-slate. We're proposing our own slate only to nullify the SP4, RP2 slates, not because we want to promote our own slate.

Blogger Akulkis May 21, 2015 9:51 PM  

@Joshua Dyal
"I know, right?"

Are you agreeing with him or asking for agreement with ... something you didn't even say?

Do yourself a favor, and stop using the STUPIDEST locution in the English language. Everybody who uses "I know, right?" sounds like the you routinely lose at checkers to young kids who have an IQ around 65.

Blogger James Dixon May 21, 2015 10:00 PM  

> Isn't it more likely they will simply rig the rules?

It's more likely they'll try. Whether they'll succeed or not is an open question. Some of the conventions regulars (Rick and Deidre Moen) have posted here indicating they don't think they will.

> ...but isn't the biggest problem facing the SP and RP slates that the SJWs (or their sympathizers) are still in control of the vote counting?

All indications from the previous two sad puppies campaigns are the the vote counting is above board.

> Doesn't the success of the RP/SP slates indicate that their supporters represent a significant voting block? Aren't the nominations and final awards voted on by the same people?

Yes, the puppies have been a significant voting block. No, the nominations and the awards aren't the same. In the past, far more people have tended to vote for the awards than have for the nominations.

> The one thing all the SJWs assume is that there are more of them then there are of us.

Yep. Whether they're right or not is an open question. We're going to find out this year and next.

Blogger aut0x3ematthew May 21, 2015 10:07 PM  

"All indications from the previous two sad puppies campaigns are the the vote counting is above board."

I assume that the doubled "the the" was an accident, but I think we should start doing that any time we comment in enemy territory, to keep their attention on HoiPolloiGate.

Blogger SirHamster (#201) May 21, 2015 10:09 PM  

You all may find interesting today's Amazon review action wrt Big Boys Don't Cry.

I assume you mean this, which was linked on File770.

Linked so other people don't have to dig as much to see what you're talking about it.

Anonymous Nathan May 21, 2015 10:13 PM  

Read through the File770 stuff. Lots of Straw Puppies in those blogs excerpts.

Blogger Daniel May 21, 2015 10:26 PM  

Rigging the rules is a) very difficult to do b) a multi year process with confirmation voting and c) easy enough for the minions to adapt to.

What are they going to do, require an SJW oath of loyalty? I will happily recite one with all my heart. By definition, I will be lying when I speak it.

Anonymous VFM.0157 aka Forrest Bishop May 21, 2015 10:35 PM  

What are they going to do, require an SJW oath of loyalty? I will happily recite one with all my heart. By definition, I will be lying when I speak it. -Daniel May 21, 2015 10:26 PM

Say, there's a great example of something we can help them write...

Blogger Thucydides May 21, 2015 10:39 PM  

Since they are afraid of multiple slates and vote splitting, then we should encourage that by creating some new slates for some (but not all) SJW's. A few overlaps between the slates and then roll them down the road like the burning wheelchair carrying the body of Freddy Lounds into the mass of SJW's.

Much fun will ensue.

Blogger Daniel May 21, 2015 10:41 PM  

File 770 is obviously piling on with downvote in the comments. We should upvote the decent ones. That girl's review is really bad one. Since when do SJWs complain that the only good character is the main character, esp. when she is a rape victim? Idiots.

Anonymous VFM.0157 aka Forrest Bishop May 21, 2015 10:48 PM  

"3. Counter-slates
We’ll almost certainly see attempts at counter-slates. I’m against the idea, but the current cry to vote “No Award” in all SP-dominated categories is itself a counter-slate after a fashion. Someone will come up with Happy Kittens and stump for non-binary PoCs or stories with lots of scene breaks or or or…well, that’s the problem."

And there's something else we can help them with. Nick Mamatas trails off with what the Happy Kittens/Rabbits should actually be stumping for. He seems to be having some trouble articulating it. Let's help them get that right out into the open, instead of letting it keep mouldering under a rock somewhere. If Options 1. and 2. are already eliminated, what happens when Option 3. goes up in flames? Box them in.

Blogger David The Good from FloridaSurvivalGardening.com May 21, 2015 10:48 PM  

I agree with other commentors: I don't think they have the staying power to create and vote winning slates.

Blogger David The Good from FloridaSurvivalGardening.com May 21, 2015 10:50 PM  

BTW, Compost Everything is now back on top of the entire gardening section again... flew up to almost 1500 in the rankings thanks to Lew and Instapundit. Crazy. Think it could garner a Hugo next year? It's actually a futurisic metanarrative about colonialism, when you think about it.

Blogger James Dixon May 21, 2015 10:54 PM  

> I assume that the doubled "the the" was an accident,

Yeah. It's getting on to time for a new pair of glasses, and I'm missing my typos. It should be that the.

Blogger Cail Corishev May 21, 2015 11:18 PM  

Nick Mamatas trails off with what the Happy Kittens/Rabbits should actually be stumping for. He seems to be having some trouble articulating it.

That's a good point. Have any of them talked about what works they think were more deserving, that were bumped out of the nominations by the Puppy slates? What great works of creative genius were denied the opportunity for recognition? If they've named any, it might be fun to review those, and point out to people wondering what all the fuss is, "This is what has their panties in a wad: that this couldn't get nominated as some of the best SF of the year."

Anonymous Wanderer May 21, 2015 11:21 PM  

I was amused to discover that in quoting that short passage from Farewell my Lovely, Mamatas did not bother to quote this passage from Chapter Thirty Seven:

Around the corner we looked at a short dirty wop in a purple silk shirt who sat in a wired-together office chair, under a naked hanging light, and read the evening paper with the aid of a black forefinger and steel-rimmed spectacles that had probably belonged to his grandfather.

I think this gives us a better view into the protagonist's views on things the SJWs claim are important than the passage that Mamatas dishonestly quoted.

Blogger Stephen Ward May 21, 2015 11:24 PM  

"futurisic metanarrative about colonialism"

don't you mean a "gaian critique of human resource usage in soviet-era penal institutions"?

Blogger Danby May 21, 2015 11:33 PM  

No no no, it's a coming-of-age story about a genderqueer meta-feminist gardener and xer struggles to mind-kill xerself from the body-shaming, slut-shaming, virgin-shaming pelvic thrusts of the Patriarchy.

Blogger DBSFF May 21, 2015 11:33 PM  

It's more analytical and self-aware than most of what they're posting, but that is damning with faint praise.

To start, as noted, Number 1 is obviously off the table at this point. Number 1 describes what their initial reaction *should* have been. That he still thinks "suck it up" is an option is like taking a punch, bawling for five minutes, and then claiming once you've regained your composure that you're sucking it up. Number 3 was probably gonna be the outcome anyway, and, had they gone with Number 1, they could gotten around to Number 3 more quickly and made this a lot less painful for themselves.

As for Number 2, my face involuntarily contorted as I read it it's so wildly outside the realm of possibility—as Vox said "won't happen." More to the point, Number 2 is nothing more than a desperate plea to return to the status quo ante bellum. Before, SJWs could surreptitiously campaign without reprobation while simultaneously denouncing those who mounted open campaigns. Number 2 would . . . allow SJWs to surreptitiously campaign without reprobation and simultaneously denounce those who mounted open campaigns.

Given that the existence of SJWs is essentially predicated upon holding double standards, the idea that—if they implemented Number 2—they would not simultaneously campaign while denouncing others for campaigning is ludicrous. If you need proof, I refer you to the Last Three Years. That this guy endorsed Number 2 as their best bet speaks volumes about just how far their self awareness has to go.

Anonymous VFM.0157 aka Forrest Bishop May 21, 2015 11:51 PM  

What great works of creative genius were denied the opportunity for recognition?-Cail Corishev May 21, 2015 11:18 PM

Naked Came Comrade Black Hole Surfer
If Ewe Were-an Diesel Sea Hag, my Cis-ta
Of Pedos and Landwhales: The History of the Hugos

Anonymous Jack Amok May 22, 2015 12:32 AM  

All indications from the previous two sad puppies campaigns are the the vote counting is above board.

I don't doubt it, but then the SJWs didn't feel as threatened by those campaigns. I certainly wouldn't bet against attempted vote rigging.

Anonymous Rolf May 22, 2015 12:43 AM  

Paradigm and Cataline - yes, indeed. I saw the same thing in the SCA. Loved the combat. Tourney or war, I was up for it. Got to quarter- or semifinals in the Crown List a couple of times, made some people nervous before being taken out by the finalists :-) But then in the 90s it started getting weird, to many vastly over-fed non-fighters telling fighters what they could and could not do on the field. Too much bureaucracy. Too much power held by people who were clearly escaping very dysfunctional mundane lives, and power-tripping in their escape world. To be sure, there were still a lot of good people in it, but when the BS:fun ratio starts to go the wrong way, it was time to bail. Never really looked back, as much as I loved putting a glaive to someone's helm.

Anonymous Peter #0231 May 22, 2015 12:59 AM  

re: SCA

Perhaps you guys are more tolerant (SWIDT?) than I am. I was in and out during the fall of 1977. Too many people using SCA as an escape from their real lives. Too much Unwarranted Self-Importance. Although I suppose that the NYC area was the breeding ground of the SJW menace, so their influence was noticeable earlier than elsewhere.

Blogger luagha May 22, 2015 1:18 AM  

The first thing the SJWs will try is entryism into the Sad Puppies slate next year.
That's why GRRM was asking if it would be a voting-based process and if he and his gang could submit works.

Blogger Danby May 22, 2015 1:48 AM  

re: SCA. I joinned a loca group and went to one event in 1978 and promptly quit the entire enterprise. The ubiquity and brazenness of the child molestation going on was straight appalling. I came to the conclusion that SCA is an organization founded and run specifically to enable middle-aged men and lesbians access to under-age girls.
And that was 30 years before I had even heard about Breen, or knw about MZB.

Blogger maniacprovost May 22, 2015 2:06 AM  

"Think it could garner a Hugo next year? It's actually a futurisic metanarrative about colonialism, when you think about it."

It inspired a story title for me... "Sci Fi Gardening" will be set on the Last Planet. Not sure what it's about, but it will definitely be lesbian dinosaur social workers.

Blogger Buddy E. May 22, 2015 2:32 AM  

To be honest, it wouldn't surprise me if it happened and the cops called him and said "some dumbasses are saying stupid shit about you shooting your wife, though you'd like to know. Press charges, yes or no."

Blogger Buddy E. May 22, 2015 2:38 AM  

We'll send you Bourbon. After all 'we do not care.'

Anonymous Bz May 22, 2015 3:08 AM  

The first thing the SJWs will try is entryism into the Sad Puppies slate next year.
That's why GRRM was asking if it would be a voting-based process and if he and his gang could submit works.


Hah, true. Entryism is their go-to technique -- one which, it should be noted, has served them well many times in the past. The antidote in this case would be for the blue team to not present a bureaucratic organization to be subverted, and to not run things by bureaucratic principles (like voting).

Blogger IM2L844 May 22, 2015 3:12 AM  

You all may find interesting today's Amazon review action wrt Big Boys Don't Cry.

What the hell are they thinking? Looks like the Tolerance Through Discrimination Gang had a little get-together and masterminded themselves a brilliant offensive strategy, Tom. *Laughs* SJWs are absurdly transparent to anyone with half a brain. A consequence of superficiality, I suppose. Or maybe they enjoy shooting themselves and each other in the feet. They simply can't resist the urge to posture and display their oh-so-clever snark. Idiots. *shakes head in disbelief*

Blogger Rantor May 22, 2015 5:03 AM  

@Bz, I think the only thing GRRM might get nominated is the SJW hated rape episode of his series. That would make him uncomfortable, and send many WorldCon attendees to their safe rooms, timeout corners, whatever

Blogger SciVo May 22, 2015 5:51 AM  

I am guaranteeing at least 3 CHORF slates.

I think that depends on the success of the Puppies this year. My mental model is that SJWs splinter as they succeed, while they unite in the face of opposition.

My prediction is that if the Puppies sweep, there will be exactly one counter-slate next year. If they are swept, then the sky's the limit for the CHORFs. To my way of thinking, you are effectively predicting that the Puppies' nominees will garner so few awards that the SJWs will feel more of a competition amongst themselves.

Blogger SciVo May 22, 2015 6:20 AM  

The first thing the SJWs will try is entryism into the Sad Puppies slate next year.
That's why GRRM was asking if it would be a voting-based process and if he and his gang could submit works.


I think that the reasons why Brad Torgersen only led SP for one year are overdetermined: he's busier now, but he was also the right person for the right job at the right time.

This year, Brad's earnest, idealistic sincerity was the perfect counterpoint to the hysterical reaction of the CHORFs. Next year will be different due to the events of this year, but I'm optimistic that Kate "The Impaler" Paulk will be up to the challenge of fending off the inevitable entryists in SP 4.

Blogger Cail Corishev May 22, 2015 6:49 AM  

That's why GRRM was asking if it would be a voting-based process and if he and his gang could submit works.

So which SJW will volunteer to be the first to submit his work for eviscer-- er, I mean critique -- by the Puppies?

Again, their ability to compete in any sort of open debate is limited by the fact that their works just aren't very good.

OpenID richard1j May 22, 2015 7:21 AM  

Tor will put up a slate and run roughshod over any others that try.

Blogger VFM 188* May 22, 2015 8:23 AM  

Damn that Kratman fellow! All this criticism and discussion about Big Boys Don't Cry, including the attacks by the SJW's, means I'm going to have to buy and read it now, rather than waiting until I've got more time.

And I just got through reading Caliphate.

For the second time. Curse you Kratman!

Blogger VFM 188* May 22, 2015 8:27 AM  

@SirHamster, who said "We're not Sad Puppies. We'll do what destroys SJWs. Whether that is from voting for the best work ... or not."

Fuckin' A.

Blogger Joshua Dyal May 22, 2015 9:11 AM  

One of the best things we can do here is actually PUBLICIZE these sorts of stories out beyond their intended in-group audience. Let a whole bunch of people look at them.

Basically what happened to If You Were a Dinosaur, My Love. I'm in favor of exposing more works to that same process. Make the authors and their works both into a laughing stock with regular people. Nothing has done more to expose the inanity of the Hugos the last several years.

Blogger Joshua Dyal May 22, 2015 9:12 AM  

Do yourself a favor, and stop using the STUPIDEST locution in the English language. Everybody who uses "I know, right?" sounds like the you routinely lose at checkers to young kids who have an IQ around 65.

Why are you slighting "The dash don't be silent?" "I know, right?" is something I picked up semi-involuntarily because I have teen-aged kids in the house, but it's a far, far cry from the stupidest locution in the English language.

Anonymous Porky May 22, 2015 9:45 AM  

"It's not the people who vote that count, it's the people who count the votes."

- Joe Stalin

Who counts the votes at Worldcon?

Blogger Stilicho #0066 May 22, 2015 9:54 AM  


Hah, true. Entryism is their go-to technique -- one which, it should be noted, has served them well many times in the past. The antidote in this case would be for the blue team to not present a bureaucratic organization to be subverted, and to not run things by bureaucratic principles (like voting).


You can have democracy, diversity, and liberty...pick any two...

Blogger GK Chesterton May 22, 2015 10:12 AM  

What is with this kindness to Nick Mamatas? The man wrote term papers, from what I gather, in his 30's and betrayed the people he wrote them for if he didn't like them. He's also an avowed socialist.

Anonymous BigGaySteve May 22, 2015 10:26 AM  

Is anyone having their stuff posted on 770?
BigGaySteve on May 22, 2015 at 7:15 am said: Your comment is awaiting moderation. Voting Expert Asks Help To Attend Sasquan Jameson Quinn is asking for money so 350 dead Chicago natives can vote the Hugo. Well maybe not since its ok for illegal aliens who cant speak English to vote in the Hugo

Hah, true. Entryism is their go-to technique -- one which, it should be noted, has served them well many times in the past

Perhaps I might be able to entrysist them with "If you where engaged in voluntary exchange in the marketplace my love" A hugo award winning tale of Austrian economic love.

Blogger luagha May 22, 2015 10:50 AM  

"What is with this kindness to Nick Mamatas?"

The hope is that he can be saved, because he is smart, a good writing instructor and shows good insight in snappy essays. We like these things because they resemble us and so we would like him to be saved.

But as said before, he is an avowed socialist, heavy leftist, and theoretically believes in all their race-class stuff. What's more, he cannot ever be wrong so he can't be told anything and evidence in front of his face will never convince him of anything. So saving him is really beyond our power in any matter great and small; he will just insult anyone (very skillfully) who tries to do so.

It was beyond Aslan's power to save the Dwarves in the Final Battle. They preferred to eat nettles rather than see the wonder that he tried to reveal to them.

Anonymous BGS May 22, 2015 11:40 AM  

Here is how they view entryism

Jean-Claude Juncker, the 12th and current President of the European Commission, made a statement that depicts the exact situation we are in:
“We decide on something, leave it lying around and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don’t understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back.”

Anonymous tiredofitall May 22, 2015 12:11 PM  

"Tor will put up a slate and run roughshod over any others that try." - richard1j

Oh, you mean like what they did for the last twenty odd years before the Sad Puppies/Rabid Puppies stepped in and bitchslapped them?

That my dear sir is at an end.

Tor ain't controlling shit from now on as long as SP/RP are willing to stand up and be counted upon to select deserving titles instead of message fiction.

Blogger S1AL May 22, 2015 12:47 PM  

"I have to say that it’s pretty amazing to meet a bunch of people who think it is impossible to change a small culture in the midst of a discussion about what to do about a group of people who have succeeded over the course of three years in changing the culture.

Tell you what—let’s table this until 2018, when whatever rule changes go into effect and are shown to fail against dedicated slate voting. It’s pretty basic: the moment you lay out the rules, the vulnerabilities in the rules are laid out as well. Nobody has ever solved a problem as basic as gerrymandering, but it is typical fannish arrogance to assume that We Just Need To Get Smart People Into The Room To Solve The Problem."

And Nick nails it again. If nothing else, he's flat-out smarter than most everyone else commenting there right now.

Blogger epobirs May 22, 2015 1:41 PM  

There can be a thousand slates and it won't matter at all in terms of making the SJWs happy. The only thing that can have any change they'll like is if they eliminate or make far more costly the Worldcon supporting membership. They can either openly succumb to elitism os live with the consequences of being genuinely open to all. There is no other option. Neither choice works in their favor.

I'm still waiting for someone to declare Spider Robinson a heretic for first getting this going in Galaxy back in the 70s, by taking time in his review column to make sure everybody knew the vote was available to any who paid the price of a supporting membership.

Blogger Marissa May 22, 2015 3:00 PM  

"Tor will put up a slate and run roughshod over any others that try." - richard1j

Oh, you mean like what they did for the last twenty odd years before the Sad Puppies/Rabid Puppies stepped in and bitchslapped them?

That my dear sir is at an end.


I think he meant that Tor would run roughshod over other non-Puppy slates. It's pretty clear that the secretive slate which certain "Tor types" logrolled for was nowhere near as successful as SP and RP. I think what they are scared of is seeing how poorly their open slate would fare.

Anonymous Shut up rabbit May 22, 2015 4:41 PM  

Wait, Rabid or Sad? Do Larry and Brad know you are speaking for the Sad Puppies?

He's speaking about the puppies, giving his opinion on something. Why on earth would Larry and Brad need to know? And if they want to know what Vox thinks they can just ask him, like mature adults.

d12, it's almost like you're thinking like a human being but not quite. are you an alien observing us, trying to blend in? Or just a child?

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