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Thursday, June 11, 2015

Moshe Feder doubles down... twice

The Associate Editor of Tor Books doubled-down on Facebook:
I'll be happy to say right now, here on my _personal_ FB page, speaking for myself and not Tor, that I agree with Irene that Vox Day can be fairly described as a neo-Nazi.
- Moshe Feder, Associate Editor, Tor Books
It's a very strange to accuse a self-declared Zionist who edits and publishes Israeli authors of being a neo-Nazi, but then, these are the same people who insist that Brad Torgersen is racist despite his marriage to a black woman. Mr. Feder then proceeded to double down again:
The approval of Tom Doherty's statement from those with Puppy sympathies or at least tolerance, and the disapproval of it by those -- like most of my friends -- whom the Puppies would dismiss as Social Justice Warriors or CHORFs, is hardly surprising. It must be accounted a tactical victory for those who chose Irene Gallo as a target and put Tor in the position of feeling it had to respond. This has gone well beyond the usual purely rhetorical combat of fan feuds to threatening someone's career status because of their personal opinion. It's dirty pool in my eyes and sets a terrible precedent.

There's been plenty of heated commentary in the aftermath yesterday and today, often pretty wild-eyed, some condemning Irene and calling for her to be fired, others condemning Tom and Tor as sexist for singling her out while Patrick and I went unmentioned. In response, I'd like to suggest a calm consideration of proportionality and a return to the practical realities of this year's Hugo Awards.

As far as I can tell, Irene didn't start her personal blog page intending to malign any Puppies, either Sad or Rabid. Rather, she responded in a spontaneous, unpremeditated way to a request for an explanation about the Hugo controversy, in the process accurately describing Theodore Beale as a neo-Nazi. Since her answer to the query was so brief, the Sad Puppies were mentioned in close proximity to that description, which understandably left them very uncomfortable. (Eric Flint's analysis concluding that this was all a deliberate subtle ploy on Irene's part to use guilt by association against them gives her too much credit. Like many visual artists, she is a spontaneous writer and not a calculating one.)

Irene has never been known for her diplomacy -- I say that as someone who's knocked heads with her more than once on work-related matters -- but I think the reaction to her off-the-cuff statement is more extreme and over-the-top than the statement itself. After all, in the end, it was just one person's opinion, readily ignorable by those who differ with it. (In fact, it went unnoticed for _weeks_ until someone decided to weaponize it.) It's _trivial_ compared to Brad and Larry's premeditated, organized effort to violate a social compact of 60 years standing. If you want to express outrage, that's where it should properly be applied.
- Moshe Feder, Associate Editor, Tor Books
We don't approve of Mr. Doherty's statement. We consider it to have been woefully insufficient. And Mr. Feder just happened to leave out the minor fact that Irene Gallo attacked Tor's customers and described the works written by Tor authors as "bad-to-reprehensible". The important thing to Mr. Feder, apparently, is repeating and trying to justify the "neo-Nazi" libel of a well-known libertarian.

As for setting a "terrible precedent", that is downright absurd. Gallo's firing will not be anything close to a precedent. The SJWs set these ground rules and we have already seen many examples of people losing their jobs for everything from a six-year-old political donation to a single Facebook comment, examples as recent as yesterday.
The principal of North Miami Senior High School has lost his job over his Facebook comment defending the Texas police officer caught on video pushing a teen girl to the ground in an incident at a community pool.

"Miami-Dade County Public Schools employees are held to a higher standard, and by School Board policy, are required to conduct themselves, both personally and professionally, in a manner that represents the school district’s core values."
In light of these additional provocations by a Tor Books employee, I sent an email to Tom Doherty, Publisher at Tor Books, requesting that he deal directly with the public misbehavior of his Associate Publisher and his Associate Editor. I trust that he will address the situation in a professional and decisive manner.

It should be obvious, at this point, that I am far from the only individual being attacked by his employee,s and that the unpleasantries are not going to end until those employees are held fully accountable for their ludicrously unprofessional actions.
Darrell Schweitzer 
The Puppies are entitled to their literary opinions and tastes, but to my mind any of them who do not repudiate Vox Day are neo-Nazis by association. You are responsible for who you associate with or take as an ally.
Guilt by association. That's new. Given that precisely zero Sad Puppies and Rabid Puppies have repudiated me, apparently we're supposed to believe that you're all neo-Nazis too. Meanwhile, SJWs force a Nobel laureate to resign over a single comment:

    A Nobel laureate has resigned from his position as honorary professor at a UK university after he made comments about the "trouble with girls" in science. University College London (UCL) said Sir Tim Hunt - a Royal Society fellow - had resigned from his position within its faculty of life sciences.

    He told a conference that women in labs "cry" when criticised and "fall in love" with male counterparts.

    He told the BBC he "did mean" the remarks but was "really sorry".

    A statement from the university read: "UCL can confirm that Sir Tim Hunt FRS has resigned from his position as honorary professor with the UCL faculty of life sciences following comments he made about women in science at the World Conference of Science Journalists on 9 June.

    "UCL was the first university in England to admit women students on equal terms to men, and the university believes that this outcome is compatible with our commitment to gender equality."  

Labels:

321 Comments:

1 – 200 of 321 Newer› Newest»
Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus June 11, 2015 8:06 AM  

I'll be happy to say right now, here on my _personal_ FB page, speaking for myself and not Tor, that I agree with Irene that Vox Day can be fairly described as a neo-Nazi.

The derp is strong with this one.

Anonymous 360 June 11, 2015 8:10 AM  

The blind ignorance of the SJWs is stunning.

Blogger HickoryHammer #0211 June 11, 2015 8:16 AM  

Now they are starting to feel the heat for their commitment to totalitarian ideals. But this is just the beginning of the beginning.

Carthago delenda est

Blogger Nate June 11, 2015 8:17 AM  

wait... wait wait wait...

how many times have they told us that our decisions to support or participate in puppy-related activities would cost us our jobs and hurt us professionally?

how many times has that threat been made by how many dozens of CHORFS?

But now its over the line?

This is so proto-typical of these assholes.

Blogger Kryten 2X4B 523P June 11, 2015 8:18 AM  

They're getting closer! Quick, move the goalposts!

Blogger Josh June 11, 2015 8:18 AM  

Everyone is a neo Nazi!

Blogger Cataline Sergius June 11, 2015 8:21 AM  

This has gone well beyond the usual purely rhetorical combat of fan feuds to threatening someone's career status because of their personal opinion. It's dirty pool in my eyes and sets a terrible precedent.

WHERE THE FUCK HAS HE BEEN?

Blogger Laughingdog June 11, 2015 8:21 AM  

So "You dirty conservatives need to stay away from our Hugos, oh and go die in a fire while you're at it" is a 60-year social compact?

Blogger Josh June 11, 2015 8:23 AM  

WHERE THE FUCK HAS HE BEEN?

No, see, it's only bad when it happens to them.

Blogger Nate June 11, 2015 8:23 AM  

"WHERE THE FUCK HAS HE BEEN?"

hehehehehe

Exactly. I was like... oh... so you really have been living under a rock these last 10 years.

Blogger VD June 11, 2015 8:23 AM  

I think we need to start compiling a master list of all the statements by Tor Books employees before they start erasing the slate. People have been telling me about things I've never seen before. Go, thou, compile and archive. And post quotes here, in the comments.

Only Tor employees and Tor.com posts. Nothing from Scalzi or the authors, they aren't relevant.

Blogger AmyJ June 11, 2015 8:24 AM  

If we needed any more indication that the public school system is a failure: look at how many SJWs made it to adulthood without knowing what an actual Nazi or neo-Nazi is. Historical ignorance is rampant.

You'd think someone named "Moshe" would know better.

Blogger Jourdan June 11, 2015 8:25 AM  

C'mon, guys. Of course they have double standards. Did you not just witness Prof. Laura Kipnis being famously shocked, shocked that Title IX based accusations provide for no due process, no counsel?

Look: this site is becoming more and more filed with "OMG, look at how stupid these liberals are!" and "You won't believe what these folks did now!"

We have enough of that with Conservatism, Inc.

What I love about this site is the willingness of the posters to organize and fight. It's painful to me to see these "these people are so dumb!" posts.

Less QQ more pew-pew.

Blogger Salt June 11, 2015 8:26 AM  

You are responsible for who you associate with or take as an ally.

As you say, Darrell Schweitzer, so shall be at you. You set the terms.

Blogger Josh June 11, 2015 8:30 AM  

Anyone who does not repudiate John Scalzi is a rapist by association.

Anyone who does not repudiate PNH is a racist by association

Anonymous Steve June 11, 2015 8:32 AM  

You are responsible for who you associate with or take as an ally. - Darrell Schweitzer


Here's Darrell Schweitzer associating with known NAMBLA supporter and writer of kiddie-rape fantasy "Hogg", Samuel R. Delany.

Is Darrell Schweitzer a creepy guy?

Blogger Kull June 11, 2015 8:33 AM  

Threatening someone's career based on an opinion they hold is dirty pool? I laughed so hard I fell right out of my panzer when I read that.

The hypocrisy is stunning. Moshe is a bold one. Do you think he believes that? Is he actually too blind to see the hypocris or is he aware of it? Is he insane and unable to see reality or is he simply without morals?

This shit gets better and better!

Anonymous Heaviside June 11, 2015 8:35 AM  

Vox Day isn't a nazi. Now, Ben Garrison there's a real nazi.

>Eric Flint's analysis concluding that this was all a deliberate subtle ploy on Irene's part to use guilt by association against them gives her too much credit. Like many visual artists, she is a spontaneous writer and not a calculating one.

There doesn't need to be any calculated ploy. Guilt by association is a reflexive instinct of anyone who is enmeshed in political correctness. You have to make a conscious effort to avoid it.

Blogger Zaklog the Great June 11, 2015 8:37 AM  

SJW: Let's play Monopoly.

*Happily plays for about 45 minutes.*

*Starts losing.*

SJW: I don't know why you chose Monopoly. I hate this game.

Anonymous Musashi #0350 June 11, 2015 8:38 AM  

So all I need to not do is "repudiate Vox Day" in order to level-up to #neonazi status?

#iamneonazi

Anonymous WhiteKnightLeo #368 June 11, 2015 8:39 AM  

Wow. Not only am I feeling iffy about buying anything from Tor, I gotta wonder about the quality of their works if these are the people editing their books.

Blogger bob k. mando June 11, 2015 8:40 AM  

11. VD June 11, 2015 8:23 AM
Only Tor employees and Tor.com posts.


if you want to kick this off right, you'd post the current list of Tor editorial staff and managers.

Blogger Nate June 11, 2015 8:42 AM  

"Less QQ more pew-pew."

say Jourdan... do you happen to have a minion number?

Blogger JACIII June 11, 2015 8:44 AM  

Remember y'all "an SJW calling someone a nazi or neonazi is, to their peabrains, just them saying "you bad, me good".

Encourage them to keep talking until they run on into something actionable.

Blogger Shimshon June 11, 2015 8:48 AM  

Funny, I thought the "60 year old social compact" was the Worldcon rules, which doesn't prohibit slates. As well, Vox and others have proven that SP/RP have not set precedent in any way.

Anonymous Gorgo June 11, 2015 8:48 AM  

...impotence...

Blogger LP 999/Eliza June 11, 2015 8:49 AM  

I request those accusing our host of being a neonazi retract and resign. They are lying, do they still ignore Vox is an editor working with other authors who are Isreali?

What the hell is wrong with the dysinformed all screwed up opposition?

Blogger Jourdan June 11, 2015 8:51 AM  

@ Nate - I do, #200, but, look, I know what you're thinking. Let me clarify.

I've found that a lot of one's political views arise from one's position in life. I have been waiting, desperately--and I don't use that term in some sort of poetic sense, but in the very real sense--for a sign that the men around me see what I see and are willing to not only grumble but fight.

This site, and the Hugo efforts, was the first time in more than three decades I've seen the will to fight. This is beyond precious to me.

I think even the victorious here don't realize how deeply significant that fight was and is. You see, to the Leftists, we're the Washington Generals: we're supposed to show up, make a show at defending the basket, make a show of engaging on the playing field and then fucking lose, every time.

This is why they are freaking out. It's like being a Harlem Globetrotter and suddenly on a five-game losing steak. It makes no sense, it ruins everything, it's not how things are supposed to be.

So, yes, I'm concerned, but for a legitimate reason. To my way of thinking it was crystal clear from the start that nothing short of a full mobilization and a full boycott with as much pressure as possible was the only response.

Nevertheless, I recognize this is Vox's show; he, unlike me, as demonstrated LEADERSHIP CAPABILITY and I'm inclined to follow, as he shows every sign of knowing exactly what that means.

That's where I'm coming from.

Anonymous Quartermaster June 11, 2015 8:52 AM  

@Steve:

So, Schweitzer is a child rapist, eh?

Blogger VD June 11, 2015 8:53 AM  

Look: this site is becoming more and more filed with "OMG, look at how stupid these liberals are!" and "You won't believe what these folks did now!" We have enough of that with Conservatism, Inc.

Jourdan, don't be an idiot. Unless people know about something, they cannot do anything about it. Unless people have a public source for something, they cannot credibly contact anyone else about it.

I have contacted Mr. Doherty myself. For now, that is sufficient.

Blogger Harsh June 11, 2015 8:53 AM  

Everyone is a neo Nazi!

Cool! I hope there's a T-shirt.

Blogger Shimshon June 11, 2015 8:55 AM  

Jourdan, I'm looking forward to collecting my $10!

Anonymous Steve June 11, 2015 8:56 AM  

Quartermaster - well, he says we need to judge people by their associations, so it seems Mr Schweitzer should be judged like those sweaty, nervous chaps Chris Hansen used to interview...

Anonymous RedJack #22 June 11, 2015 8:56 AM  

You are one of the editors for Martin van Creveld, an Israeli Zionist, yet you are a neo Nazi?

Did I miss the memo or does the word "nazi" not mean what I think it does?

Blogger VD June 11, 2015 8:57 AM  

To my way of thinking it was crystal clear from the start that nothing short of a full mobilization and a full boycott with as much pressure as possible was the only response.

And you're wrong. The grunt rush works in poorly designed RTS and in environments when internal SJWs are waiting for any external justification to do what they already want to do. Mr. Doherty has already made it clear that Ms Gallo's actions were unacceptable. He has not declared that he will not ask her to resign or fire her.

And now his Associate Editor has openly flouted his authority. Twice. The man deserves the chance to get his house in order before any further action is taken.

Anonymous Mike M. (minion #315) June 11, 2015 9:00 AM  

"Cool! I hope there's a T-shirt."

T-shirt, nothing. If I'm going to be accused of being a neo-Nazi, I want my spiffy Hugo Boss uniform and my Walther PPK.

Blogger Josh June 11, 2015 9:00 AM  

Did I miss the memo or does the word "nazi" not mean what I think it does?

I'll give scalzi credit for thing, he mostly sticks to insults like asscaptain or whatever that don't have actual definitions

Blogger Cataline Sergius June 11, 2015 9:00 AM  

This day isn't turning out all that well. It's not nine o'clock and I've already been turned into a Neo-Nazi and Christopher Lee has died

Blogger Shimshon June 11, 2015 9:03 AM  

Jourdan, it's about due diligence and proportional response. Going out guns blazing with immediate calls for a boycott would very likely be counterproductive. Boycott is the nuclear option. Escalate at a measured pace. If we succeed without outright calls for one, even better. Our power goes up considerably.

Anonymous IsMise June 11, 2015 9:03 AM  

I awoke this morning and found myself magically transformed into a neonazi. Hello Kafka.

Blogger Josh June 11, 2015 9:04 AM  

Christopher Lee has died

Did anyone check to see if he too is a neo Nazi?

Blogger Jourdan June 11, 2015 9:05 AM  

Vox, I will be happy indeed to be wrong about this situation, most happy indeed.

Agree that the zerg isn't always called for.

I don't read Doherty's statement as you do, but I don't know him, you do, and you have stated that there were discussions with Tor with regard to Rapid Puppies, so there is that as well.

As you've repeatedly said, a man can admit when he's wrong. I know I can and will if events prove me wrong here, and I'm sure you would do the same.

OpenID xsyq June 11, 2015 9:05 AM  

If you have any quotes from SJWs, use https://archive.is/ to archive the entire webpage instead of merely a screenshot or a quote. It's harder to dismiss.

Blogger Alexander June 11, 2015 9:06 AM  

You know, I did suspect I woke up on the reich side of the bed this morning, so it's nice of the SJWs to confirm.

Blogger Shimshon June 11, 2015 9:07 AM  

"Did anyone check to see if he too is a neo Nazi?"

Did he ever play one on TV? Guilt by association you know.

Blogger Nate June 11, 2015 9:09 AM  

I'm nazi! She's nazi! He's Nazi! We're all nazis!

The bannister's nazi!

...

What?

No Rocky Horror fans?

Blogger Alexander June 11, 2015 9:10 AM  

Doesn't have to. If any Ilk at any point appreciated or admired his work, and he personally did not distance himself and declare that he did not want or accept such from confirmed Neo Nazis... then he too is a neo nazi.

Blogger Nate June 11, 2015 9:11 AM  

"You know, I did suspect I woke up on the reich side of the bed this morning"

thread winner.

Blogger Shimshon June 11, 2015 9:15 AM  

Lee was 93. 9+3 = 12. 1+2 = 3. The Nazis had the THIRD Reich. Lee was clearly a Nazi.

Blogger Josh June 11, 2015 9:16 AM  

Lee was 93. 9+3 = 12. 1+2 = 3. The Nazis had the THIRD Reich. Lee was clearly a Nazi.

MIND. BLOWN.

Blogger Rabbi B June 11, 2015 9:18 AM  

http://www.tor.com/about-us/

Tor.com Staff

FYI

Blogger Alexander June 11, 2015 9:18 AM  

Christopher Lee was born and just five months later Mussolini became the Prime Minister of Italy.

Blogger Alexander June 11, 2015 9:20 AM  

Oh, hell! Lee fought with the Finnish army. Nobody tell Charlie Stross!

Blogger Nate June 11, 2015 9:21 AM  

I ask you... who is more diverse than the Ilk?

Where else do you find jewish neo nazis... and out of the closet flaming gay homophobes?

Blogger Cail Corishev June 11, 2015 9:24 AM  

Jourdan, two reasons to relax:

1. We may be logical, rational thinkers, but we're still human beings, not robots. If you want human beings to fight, you have to give them opportunities to pump themselves and each other up for it. Pointing out the continued and increasing perfidy of the SJWs is part of that.

2. You may already know how bad they are, but most people don't. Even people who get it and have chosen sides can still be surprised by just how bad they are and how far they'll go. (After more than a decade of getting it, they still surprise me once in a while, though more with their stupidity than with their evil.) SJW thinking is so foreign that it takes time to really get a grasp on it, and we will always be getting new people who are at the beginning of the process and have many shocks to work through. Let them do it.

Blogger Cail Corishev June 11, 2015 9:30 AM  

If we needed any more indication that the public school system is a failure: look at how many SJWs made it to adulthood without knowing what an actual Nazi or neo-Nazi is.

It's not so much what they weren't taught as what they were. They were taught that "knowing things" is wrong, because some people are better than others at knowing things, so it's unfair. Knowing things leads to being judgmental and discriminating. They take pride in not knowing things, and trusting their feelings about things instead.

Anonymous Obvious June 11, 2015 9:31 AM  

Well, shit, if the blog owner sent Tom Doherty an EMAIL, things will REALLY happen now. Boy howdy, an EMAIL!

Isn't this sort of a distraction from that FIrst Sword Kickstarter that's coming out ANY day now?

Anonymous Roundtine June 11, 2015 9:32 AM  

Calling us all neo-nazis is a genius move, since calling us all gamergaters really helped to isolate us. God help them if they wake the trolls.

Blogger Jourdan June 11, 2015 9:32 AM  

Points well made and well taken, Cail.

I agree with Nate that Alexander's comment is thread winner.

Blogger Doom June 11, 2015 9:33 AM  

Wow. Boy do they overunderestimate you. At least from what I see, how I think. How to put it? I suppose it would be like (assuming reals, mind you... if there is, just not in some ways) calling Santa Clause a Christian zealot. (Oh? I have heard at least a dozen men suggest that Santa doesn't exist, then sign that name on tags on Christmas presents for their children... doesn't that MAKE Santa real... in a way? Never mind.)

Anyway, all good. Doubling down in a vortex is great. Twice the firings, half the work! I love me some doubling down!

Blogger Jourdan June 11, 2015 9:34 AM  

Reziac - The idea of free speech in our tradition is that the government and its institutions cannot make laws to silence free men. It does not mean that free men cannot react to the speech of others, up to and including arguing that they are dangerous and need to be removed from power.

Anonymous rienzi June 11, 2015 9:35 AM  

This is going to be very difficult for Shimson as the new Obergruppenfuher of the SS "Juden" division. There can't be many places in Israel that sell Nazi uniforms, and walking around in it is going to be awkward at best. Sieg Oy!

Anonymous zen0 June 11, 2015 9:39 AM  

> You are one of the editors for Martin van Creveld, an Israeli Zionist, yet you are a neo Nazi?

Moshe Feder is probably a reform or completely secular jew. He probably thinks Nuttenyahoo is a neo-nazi.

Anonymous Satan's Hamster June 11, 2015 9:41 AM  

"This has gone well beyond the usual purely rhetorical combat of fan feuds to threatening someone's career status because of their personal opinion"

Meanwhile, back in the real world, a Nobel laureate scientist has just had to resign in the name of 'gender equality' for his comments about women in science:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-33090022

Presumably he'd have been fine if he'd called them neo-Nazis instead of complaining that they cry when criticized.

Anonymous Steve June 11, 2015 9:41 AM  

Big Seanan McGuire is excited about Neo Nachos.

Blogger Aeoli Pera June 11, 2015 9:41 AM  

Did anyone check to see if he too is a neo Nazi?

Did he ever repudiate Vox Day? No?

The evidence is in, and the verdict is settled. Christopher Lee was a neo-Nazi, even though he probably didn't realize it.

Blogger JartStar June 11, 2015 9:42 AM  

If "neo-nazi" doesn't work, what's next?

Anonymous RedJack #22 June 11, 2015 9:44 AM  

54. Nate June 11, 2015 9:21 AM
I ask you... who is more diverse than the Ilk?

Where else do you find jewish neo nazis... and out of the closet flaming gay homophobes?

Don't forget BigGaySteve and Wheeler. The fact we have those two gentleman on the same blog always makes me chuckle. It even lets me forget about your taste whisky (I prefer Scotch).

Blogger Nate June 11, 2015 9:46 AM  

" It even lets me forget about your taste whisky (I prefer Scotch)."

then I think BigGaySteve is more careful about what he puts in his mouth than you are.

Blogger Aeoli Pera June 11, 2015 9:46 AM  

In the spirit of free speech, we should offer scissors, not add more tape.

If you trust an SJW with a pair of scissors, then you deserve what comes next.

Blogger Peter June 11, 2015 9:47 AM  

Hello again, Vox and friends.

I'm cynically amused that no commenter from the non-Puppy angle has addressed even one of the points I raised in connection with Ms. Gallo's original post (the ones I discussed in my open letter to Mr. Doherty). It's as if I didn't exist. I can only assume that they've realized my points were unanswerable except in an admission of Ms. Gallo's fecklessness. Pity . . . I'd hoped for at least some of them to display intellectual honesty. It seems I hoped in vain.

The real question is, is it in fact possible for Tor and Mr. Doherty to do anything more? I think Mr. Feder's doubling-down on stupid was effectively a public slap in the face to Mr. Doherty. I think Mr. Feder and his ilk believe their position at Tor is so strong that they can defy him and the company(ies) to whom Tor reports. I think they regard themselves as bulletproof.

We'll have to see whether or not they're correct. If, by next Monday, things have not changed, then regrettably I suspect we'll have to take the next step. I truly hope that won't be necessary, but . . .

Blogger Alexander June 11, 2015 9:48 AM  

Thread winner at post 47, lost the title at post 70.

Thems the breaks.

Blogger Shimshon June 11, 2015 9:48 AM  

"SJW thinking is so foreign that it takes time to really get a grasp on it..."

SJW thinking is understandable, even predictable. The hard part is accepting that it exists, because it doesn't make any sense (to non-SJWs).

Blogger Aeoli Pera June 11, 2015 9:48 AM  

If "neo-nazi" doesn't work, what's next?

I don't enjoy pointing this out, but the logical progression is clear: next is accusations of honest-to-goodness domestic terrorism.

Blogger Joshua Dyal June 11, 2015 9:50 AM  

Sieg Oy!

Sorry, Alexander. Your victory of the thread was short-lived.

Blogger Dexter June 11, 2015 9:51 AM  

I am certain that if she'd made a spontaneous, unpremeditated, off-the-cuff statement that was critical of blacks or gays, that would be dismissed as just one person's opinion, readily ignorable by those who differ with it. Her ass would not be instantly out in the street, no sir.

Blogger Joshua Dyal June 11, 2015 9:53 AM  

The real question is, is it in fact possible for Tor and Mr. Doherty to do anything more?

McMillan is next, the company that owns Tor.

Blogger Shimshon June 11, 2015 9:55 AM  

I get more laughs being part of the ilk than I deserve. Gotta practice my goosestep now.

Anonymous RedJack #22 June 11, 2015 9:55 AM  

Well played Nate!

Anonymous MelodiousThunk June 11, 2015 9:55 AM  

Here's the Wikipedia description of the term in question:

"Neo-Nazism borrows elements from Nazi doctrine, including ultranationalism, racism, ableism, xenophobia, homophobia, antisemitism, and initiating the Fourth Reich. Holocaust denial is a common feature, as is incorporation of Nazi symbols and admiration of Adolf Hitler."

I'd guess that the average SJW would score a 3/10 with endless heated, bigoted statements about whites (racism), Christians (xenophobia), and Israel (antisemitism). The SJW commitment to affirmative action (which most profoundly and directly harms Asians) certainly would fit in.

I wonder what SJWs would consider the cutoff. Does it make sense to call someone with a 3/10 a neo-nazi?

Blogger bearspaw June 11, 2015 9:57 AM  

Where the heck is my old 78 of The Horst Wessel Song...? It should be in here with this other stuff. Ah, here. Under the Luger.

Blogger Shimshon June 11, 2015 9:58 AM  

Bummer about Tim Hunt resigning. Is the problem his comments or that his Lee Number (how far removed he is from Christopher Lee) is too low? Kevin Bacon better watch out. His eponymously-named metric is in danger of becoming obsolete.

Blogger Laguna Beach Fogey June 11, 2015 10:00 AM  

"Moshe Feder"

You just can't make this stuff up.

Typical behaviour for the Tribe.

Blogger Nate June 11, 2015 10:04 AM  

"Thread winner at post 47, lost the title at post 70."

gracious as always Alexander.

Blogger Nate June 11, 2015 10:05 AM  

"Well played Nate!"

eh... you'll get me back.. I have no doubt.

Anonymous trk June 11, 2015 10:08 AM  

Vox lives in Italy so therefore he is fascist, not neo nazi. Btw the entertainment level is high. Thank you.

Blogger Cail Corishev June 11, 2015 10:14 AM  

Enough duct tape silences anyone. In the spirit of free speech, we should offer scissors, not add more tape.

Conservatives have been trying that for decades. How's it been going? Have you seen any evidence that "offering" SJWs a better way has any effect whatsoever? Do they appear capable of learning by any means other than pain?

They've proven that they won't listen to reason and have no interest in compromise. They were never supporters of free speech; it was only a tool and a talking point when they were out of power and has been discarded now that they're in power. They will laugh at your "scissors" and duct tape your mouth for offering them.

The only thing that might get through to them is pain -- let them experience the consequences of their actions. Yes, that means people losing their jobs, just as they've been demanding and doing for years. Yes, it means businesses they've infested being bankrupted, just as they've been demanding and doing for years (though we're willing to let the market do it rather than using the courts and regulators).

Unlike them, we don't actually intend to kill anyone or starve them to death, so the publishing drones, review bots, and influence peddlers who get fired are welcome to get other jobs scrubbing floors or something. (I'm reliably informed by their friends in the corporate left that there are plenty of jobs in America that Americans are just too lazy to do, so that shouldn't be a problem.) But no publisher who expects authors to do business with him should hire these people who have shown their contempt for authors and customers. That's not even ideology; that's just common sense.

This is a war; the word "culture" in front of it is descriptive, not a negation. The SJWs have been winning because they've been treating it as one and their victims haven't. If you've been losing a war, you can't request a cease-fire and work out a peace treaty unless you shoot back for a while and give the aggressors a reason to prefer compromise over continuing and wiping you out.

Blogger Rabbi B June 11, 2015 10:15 AM  

"I ask you... who is more diverse than the Ilk?"

Diverse by association.

Blogger Nikis-Knight June 11, 2015 10:15 AM  

Look up the blog Handles Haus for an extensive list of those fired for non left positions over recent years. About time for these smarmy creeps to gag on their own medicine.

Anonymous Peter Garstig June 11, 2015 10:16 AM  

SJWs don't understand. Vox is antifragile.

Blogger Nikis-Knight June 11, 2015 10:19 AM  

What other companies does Macmillan own? I don't want to shift Tor money to a related business.

Blogger Cail Corishev June 11, 2015 10:23 AM  

The real question is, is it in fact possible for Tor and Mr. Doherty to do anything more?

If she had posted to Facebook that there aren't more women and blacks in SF because they just aren't smart enough to write quality stories, she would be gone by now. There's zero question about that. She might not have lasted to the end of the workday. Maybe Mr. Doherty wouldn't have been the one to fire her, but all the people at Tor currently defending her and drawing new lines between corporate and personal would have demanded her resignation, someone in authority would have acted, and she'd be gone.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 June 11, 2015 10:23 AM  

Better a neo-Nazi than a pussy SJW. At least neo-Nazis (as far as I know) hate pedophiles.

Anonymous Emperor of Icecream June 11, 2015 10:28 AM  

I'd like to think that Moshe is lying, but the truth is he's probably just crazy and dumb. Firing senior people for insulting the customers isn't some new thing. It's standard corporate SOP for very good reasons. Same with firing senior people for breaching contracts for no good reason (talking down tor's own authors is probably a breach of contract).

These people are literally incompetent.

Anonymous Emperor of Icecream June 11, 2015 10:30 AM  

I notice that guilt-by-association means that Martin Creveld, and by association all Israelis, and by association all Zionists, and by association Jews, are neo-nazis.

If you don't want to be a neo-nazi, prove it by hatin' on jews.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan June 11, 2015 10:32 AM  

In my estimation these words aimed at whites especially the word "racist" are fighting words. This should also have legal ramifications upon the person doing the assaulting. Example the cop in Texas who was forced to resign some consideration should be given if he was verbally assaulted.

Blogger Nate June 11, 2015 10:33 AM  

'Hello again, Vox and friends."

Welcome back Peter. Good to see ya stopping by. I really don't think this ends without further escalation... we will have to crank it up not to 11... but to 352.

And even then it will be a fighting withdrawl.

Blogger Jack Ward June 11, 2015 10:33 AM  

@Vox: And now his Associate Editor has openly flouted his authority. Twice. The man deserves the chance to get his house in order before any further action is taken.

This is reasonable. Besides, the onus may be on the parent company of Tor. Seems with this comment string there is some doubt that Mr. Doherty actually has the power to fire these people. Should be interesting. Meanwhile, lets do nothing that causes the big 4 at Tor to shut up.

Anonymous Emperor of Icecream June 11, 2015 10:35 AM  

#jesuisneonazi

Anonymous Bz June 11, 2015 10:36 AM  

Okay, let's get the ball rolling. Making Light should be a good primary source. Just picking a couple of links approved by Gawker.

To repeat something I said in the lengthy Making Light comment-section discussion of all this, here’s my own take what’s not a big deal, and what really is a big deal.

(1) To the best of my knowledge, the campaign to get a slate of specific people and works onto the Hugo ballot hasn’t done anything that violates the rules.

(2) As anyone over the age of ten knows, it’s generally possible to do things that are dubious, or scummy, or even downright evil, without violating any laws or rules.

(3) Merely running a campaign to get a slate of specific people and works onto the Hugo ballot doesn’t really rise to the level of “evil”, but it’s definitely “dubious” at the very least. Which is to say, it violates a lot of people’s sense of how one ought to behave, and if you do it you’ll incur widespread disapproval. Prepare to deal.

(4) However, running a campaign to get a slate of specific people and works onto the Hugo ballot and reaching out to #Gamergate for support in this…in effect, inviting a bunch of people who traffic in violent threats, intimidation, and “SWATting” to join our community…well, that rises all the way to “downright evil”.

For complicity with this, the Sad Puppy campaign deserves our comprehensive rejection.
(Patrick)

http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/016194.html#016194

Links endorsed by Patrick, for instance this one: http://www.amnottheonlyone.com/the-psychology-of-hugo-sad-puppies-and-rabid-puppies/

http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/016215.html#016215

Next, Bruce Schneier (otherwise a respected fellow in computer security, not sure what he's doing there) enrolled to see if the Hugo situation can be fixed by changing the voting system:
http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/016199.html
http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/016206.html

(Again, why does the publisher Tor think it's a good idea to have its senior management working on manipulating the Hugo award? Any perspective here? Any sense of propriety? Particularly after Tor somehow winning so many of them over the years.)

OpenID genericviews June 11, 2015 10:36 AM  

Irene has never been known for her diplomacy -- I say that as someone who's knocked heads with her more than once on work-related matters -- but I think the reaction to her off-the-cuff statement is more extreme and over-the-top than the statement itself.

Funny. Similar defenses have never been sufficient to defend people accused by rabid PC police of various imaginary offences.

Anonymous Brother Thomas June 11, 2015 10:50 AM  

[Smiling & chuckling]... this gentlemen is a typical example of the general level of "sophistication" among our opposition.

They possess a very crude primitive simplistic worldview. If you don't share the opinion of "The Hive"... well then, you MUST be a National Socialist.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 11, 2015 10:50 AM  

T-shirt, nothing. If I'm going to be accused of being a neo-Nazi, I want my spiffy Hugo Boss uniform and my Walther PPK.

Oh, so that's what they mean by "hijacking the Hugos." Fine, I take a 48 XL jacket.

But I'll skip the 9mm PPK.

Anonymous 10900209 June 11, 2015 10:54 AM  

You can tell that Gallo and Moshe are getting old and are not up to date on modern cultural warfare. Calling your opponent Hitler may have been the rhetorical equivalent to an atomic bomb once, but it only induces eye-rolling these days. The left overused it, and, besides, it's obvious to everyone now that their own authoritarian tendencies are much more pronounced than their opponents'.

Blogger rcocean June 11, 2015 11:02 AM  

When a Jew calls a Gentile a "Neo-Nazi" he means anti-Semite. Or to make it plainer, Moshe is calling Vox an anti-Semite - he's using the dog-whistle. Moshe seems incredibly intelligent and I don't believe for a second that he doesn't understand language, nor as a Jew does he misunderstand what a Nazi is.

Anonymous Giuseppe June 11, 2015 11:03 AM  

And now his Associate Editor has openly flouted his authority. Twice. The man deserves the chance to get his house in order before any further action is taken.

And this proves my earlier assertion that VD is the fourth type of military commander (as per Clausewitz on war). It also clarifies the Christian perspective on war for me.

And it further clarifies that my own sentimebts are closer to that of a Noble savage (as per John Wright's description of it)

It's kind of funny to me that Vox is the Red Indian but he lives in Italy and acts like a Roman Legionaire with God on his side, and I am the Italian, but spent most of my life in Africa and tend to react more along the lines of throwing a tomahawk at my enemy as the first instinct.

It may be only to me, but this is very educational about Christianity. Very.

Blogger Emmanuel Mateo-Morales June 11, 2015 11:03 AM  

"And you're wrong. The grunt rush works in poorly designed RTS..."

Care to elaborate and, by any chance, are you referring to StarCraft or some of the earlier Command and Conquer games?

Anonymous Case June 11, 2015 11:08 AM  

The cast of characters

http://www.tor.com/2010/04/23/meet-tor-books-30-years-old/

Blogger Joshua Dyal June 11, 2015 11:09 AM  

Moshe seems incredibly intelligent

Based on evidence beyond this sample of posts we've been treated to so far, I presume.

Blogger Elocutioner0226 June 11, 2015 11:10 AM  

Ran across this on Facebook:

"The beauty is that plenty of anti-SP folks -- I'm fairly certain, not ALL of them -- but plenty have said that getting on the SP or the RP slate was enough evidence to refuse to vote for the nominated author altogether. The association was so vile that they had no choice.

BUT -- a powerful employee in a company who libels the SPs and their fans as Nazis? Or the Neilson Hayden's comments? Why, how could anyone draw a conclusion from that?"
-Michael Giel

Damn straight.
Facebook comment link

Anonymous Jill June 11, 2015 11:10 AM  

Forcing people to resign over saying benign and even candid things is not in good form. That's why I would like to contact Tim Hunt's UCL dept and express my distaste. A 72-yr-old Nobel Laureate honestly, openly expresses his own failings w/ self-deprecating humor and is forced to resign. Despicable. Even though Irene Gallo's remarks weren't of the same kind--that is, she was attempting to defame specific people, which is vile unprofessional behavior, gossip at the least and libel at the worst--but I would still find it bad form to force her to resign. Apologize, yes. Resign, no.

Blogger Rabbi B June 11, 2015 11:11 AM  

We should be in awe of the SJW - they are also omniscient and know our hearts and minds better than we do.

482. jere7my

Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:08pm 3 Favorites [+]

The dilemma the Puppies (and Gamergaters, for that matter) face is this: On the one hand, they don’t believe in outrage culture. They consider it to be the province of “SJWs” and “radfems” and “leftists”, and they cheerfully mock those who would choose not to read a work because the author is racist, or try to get a game company to be more inclusive in their character designs. They pour scorn on “professional victims” and people who “play the race card.” On the other hand, they are themselves outraged; they are seethingly wounded by accusations from people that they respect that their organizations have endemic problems with racism or misogyny, which they call “libel” and “slander”, and they are driven to lash out at their oppressors. They profess to be adopting the despised tactics of the SJW as a kind of cynical parody, a smug “see how you like it!” as they turn our own guns against us, but those tactics are motivated by a sour kernel of real hurt. None of them actually want or expect Irene Gallo to be fired, unless it’s for the lulz, because that would be a capitulation to the outrage culture they’ve fought so hard against—but, deep down, they do. They hurt, and they want someone to pay.

In other words, they have become exactly what they disdain: full-time victims who boycott companies that hurt their feelings, who agitate for the firing of people who exercise their free speech in ways they don’t like. What began as a jerky SJW-strawman marionette has become a real boy, and they don’t know whether to insist that we accept and validate him or dress him in clown shoes. Unfortunately for them, they can’t have it both ways; by mocking activism, they’re now mocking themselves.

It goes without saying that the situation here is not symmetrical; the Puppies and the Gamergaters are entitled consumers, mostly youngish and whiteish and maleish and catered to, stacking their hurts up against the towering monoliths of systemic racism, sexism, homophobia, and calling their pile taller. They are a few thousand angry people with delusions of grandeur and a lot of free time, and they don’t understand the subtleties of social justice deeply enough to embrace the good and reject the bad. All they can build is strawmen. But they’ve discovered that a persecution complex can make them feel good, and make them feel powerful, and they’ve come to like that; by trying to fight fire with fire, they’ve set their own strawman alight.


Anonymous Dirtnapninja June 11, 2015 11:14 AM  

Keep pounding away at this. Hold them to their own standards

--No War but the Culture War--

Blogger Alexander June 11, 2015 11:16 AM  

-but I would still find it bad form to force her to resign. Apologize, yes. Resign, no.

That's like saying "I find it bad form to hang enemy troops in retaliation to atrocities committed against our own."

The only way to stop this sort of shit is to make it clear that it will be responded to in kind. Nothing else will remove it from the enemy's arsenal. Armies have understood this for thousands of years.

By backing down now, all one accomplishes is *looking* sensitive and caring while actually increasing future conflict (and increasing the proportion of it that comes down on one's own side).

She absolutely needs to be forced out. To the longboats, friends!

Anonymous DNW June 11, 2015 11:19 AM  


When mouthed by a left-fascist or collectivist, what power has the accusation of "Neo-Nazi" possibly got, especially when directed at those who are libertarians or have explicitly libertarian leanings?

Speaking more generally, collectivist types who like to parade around behind consumed drum beaters while jabbing the air with their fists and threatening collective violence, should have enough sense to avoid flinging the term "Nazi" around.

"Social compact"? The sooner the last shreds of that now hollow and pathetic illusion are broken and ground into the dust, the better. These collectivist appetite entities and nihilists (for essential human nature and the idea of natural kinds have themselves been rejected by the type) who respect no boundaries, recognize no limits to their sway, and have no point of ideological satiety, started a social war that may now be spiraling out of their control.

They have been, a la Rotry, consciously and relentlessly ratcheting down for a generation now: colonizing the healthy and sound, and off-loading the costs of their autogenic disorders and neuroses onto others, who neither need nor want from them what they unceasingly demand. They make a nation of slaves and call it the land of "positive liberty".

Now we see some of them sniveling about a "social compact" which they feel is endangered - a "compact" which they have boasted of transgressing and subverting for a generation and more. The guy sounds like an effen Canadian.

There's no social compact. We just happen to presently live on the same landmass, and the dwindling inertia of the ideals they have worked to undermine is all that has kept the "shooting" down till now.

Like Cuomo says, there is no natural law as far as they are concerned ... it's all just about slowing and ritualizing the struggle for dominance through temporary compromises - so we can live peaceably together in the suffocating worthless hothouse they call "community". The question though is "Why" bother? What's to preserve?

Anonymous DNW June 11, 2015 11:20 AM  

costumed ... drum beaters. I'll blame it on auto correct

Blogger VD June 11, 2015 11:22 AM  

Care to elaborate and, by any chance, are you referring to StarCraft or some of the earlier Command and Conquer games?

No. Yes.

I would still find it bad form to force her to resign. Apologize, yes. Resign, no.

That's nice. We don't give a damn about form. Unlike you, we don't play to lose with nobility, grace, and style. The rules are the rules. Either learn to play by them or get off the field and go home.

Blogger Cail Corishev June 11, 2015 11:28 AM  

Forcing people to resign over saying benign and even candid things is not in good form.

You're right, it's not, but SJWs do it every day, and all attempts to reason with them and appeal to their sense of fairness (something they don't possess) and concern for individual rights (ditto) have only served to embolden them.

Perhaps when Irene Gallo and a few dozen other SJWs have lost their cushy white-collar jobs, they'll begin to agree with you. If not, maybe a few hundred will do it. If not.... I'm not sure they're capable of learning, but maybe they'll surprise me.

When they give Tim Hunt his job back and apologize to Brendan Eich, let us know. Until then, your "concern" is misplaced.

Anonymous Jill June 11, 2015 11:32 AM  

Well, I dunno, I guess you all should pick your battles. Forcing a woman (not even an editor) to resign from her job after she said one wrong thing a while back on a Facebook thread sounds like a prison sentence for jaywalking. It even sounds a little fascist, though, as Orwell said way back in the 40s, the term "fascist" has become almost entirely meaningless. At that time, "fascist" had already come to mean something akin to "bully", just as "neo-Nazi" has come to be a pejorative meaning "anyone who holds to right-wing politics, regardless of whether they hold Nazi political views".

Blogger Sir Wilshire (#320) June 11, 2015 11:33 AM  

OT, but a little related to this post and and Vox's debate the other day where Phil was incredulous about Vox pointing out how the sex differences clearly start to show even in young children.

Doug Wilson positively reviews "Why Gender Matters: What Parents and Teachers Need to Know about the Emerging Science of Sex Differences."

http://dougwils.com/books/review-why-gender-matters-what-parents-and-teachers-need-to-know-about-the-emerging-science-of-sex-differences.html

He links to the goodreads page for the book. What does the top review call Sax, the author?

A neo-Nazi.

Blogger Chiva June 11, 2015 11:35 AM  

Forcing a woman (not even an editor) to resign from her job after she said one wrong thing a while back on a Facebook thread sounds like a prison sentence for jaywalking.

You are correct. But as stated before, we would be merely playing by their 'rules'.

Blogger Jourdan June 11, 2015 11:36 AM  

@ Jill - Your change in characterization of your objection from "forcing people to..." to "forcing women to...." is instructive. You women just can't help appealing to male respect for women as women for all your grand talk of equality.

Let me very clear: We have watched for decades while you people have done this to our people over and over again. So, fuck you.

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus June 11, 2015 11:37 AM  

Moshe seems incredibly intelligent

Setting the bar a tad low, you are.

Blogger Feather Blade June 11, 2015 11:37 AM  

@RabbiB
We should be in awe of the SJW - they are also omniscient and know our hearts and minds better than we do.

482. jere7my
Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:08pm 3 Favorites [+]


The tl;dr on that comment is "If they taunt us they will be just like us!"

And I have not linked that to the TvTropes site. You're welcome.

Blogger Cail Corishev June 11, 2015 11:38 AM  

Forcing a woman (not even an editor) to resign from her job

So it would be okay if she were a man? Why do you hate men?

It even sounds a little fascist

You're not very good at this.

Incidentally, the amount of concern trolling on this issue already shows that we're drawing blood.

Anonymous Bz June 11, 2015 11:38 AM  

So Jill, what's your view on the two people who have actually been fired for their public views just while the Gallo affair has been debated here? Keep straining at the gnats.

Blogger Feather Blade June 11, 2015 11:40 AM  

The tl;dr on that comment is "If they taunt us they will be just like us!"

Which is doubly amusing, because it mean that they have subconsciously cast themselves in the role of the bad guy and the puppies the role of the good guy.

Blogger John Wright June 11, 2015 11:40 AM  

"Forcing people to resign over saying benign and even candid things is not in good form. "

Stuff and nonsense. All the forms are satisfied. Irene Gallo made a remark that was both unprofessional and rude. For the rudeness she offered something that almost looked like an apology, so, as far as I am concerned, that matter is settled. For her unprofessional behavior she must gracefully resign and her employers reluctantly accept the resignation.

Any manager at a McDonalds would fire a fry cook who spat in the coke he handed a customer through the drive by window. That is the correct and good form.

One is bound by the measure one uses to measure others.

Blogger Emmanuel Mateo-Morales June 11, 2015 11:41 AM  

@VD

So, you were referring to StarCraft and the earlier Command and Conquer games or just the earlier Command and Conquer games?

Blogger Rabbi B June 11, 2015 11:43 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Stromboli June 11, 2015 11:43 AM  

Easy there killer.

Perhaps when Irene Gallo and a few dozen other SJWs have lost their cushy white-collar jobs, they'll begin to agree with you. If not, maybe a few hundred will do it.

I tend to doubt he is, but let's see if Vox is capable of effecting even one resignation. Then you can leap to "dozens" and "hundreds"....

Anonymous Damian June 11, 2015 11:44 AM  

Mr. Vox Day,

Please feel free to post this if you like:

AN OPEN LETTER, FROM A POLICE INVESTIGATOR, TO MR. T. DOHERTY CONCERNING THE NEAR TO ACTUAL CRIMINAL BEHAVIOUR OF DEFAMATORY LIBEL COMMITTED BY TWO OF YOUR EMPLOYEES:

Dear Mr. T. Doherty:

As you are aware, recently an employee of yours, Irene Gallo, made a certain comment on her Facebook page while acting in the capacity that would make a reasonable person come to believe that she was speaking, at least in part, in her capacity as a Tor employee.

Now, although you are aware of this comment, for the sake of accuracy I nevertheless wish to reproduce it here. Ms. Irene Gallo said:

There are two extreme right-wing to neo-nazi groups, called the Sad Puppies and Rabid Puppies respectively, that are calling for the end of social justice in science fiction and fantasy. They are unrepentantly racist, misogynist, and homophobic. A noisy few but they’ve been able to gather some Gamergate folks around them and elect a slate of bad-to-reprehensible works on this year’s Hugo ballot.

At the same time, and even more recently, another one of your employees, Moshe Feder, also made statements— albeit on his personal Facebook page— which reiterated and reinforced some of the points made above by Irene Gallo; specifically, he reinforced the idea that Vox Day, the leader of the Rabid Puppies, could be considered a neo-Nazi.

In light of all this, the reason that I am writing to you is because, quite frankly, I have had enough. Indeed, as a man whose profession revolves around seeking out the truth (or at least seeking out those beliefs which are reasonable to believe), I have become sick and tired of hearing such statements being made against individuals who I would count as my social and cultural co-patriots. And yet, at the same time, my personal sensibilities and feelings are not at all important in this manner. Rather, they have simply been the catalyst which has motivated me to write you and to advise you that what your employees have written can reasonably be seen as being libelous. And I do not use that term in a vague or overarching sense; rather, I mean that your employees, acting, at least in part as representatives of your organization, have made statements which veer into the realm of being criminally libelous.

Consider, that the Criminal Code of Canada—which is the jurisdiction that I reside in and work in— defines the Criminal Code offense of Defamatory Libel as follows:

Anonymous Damian June 11, 2015 11:45 AM  

298. Definition

298. (1) A defamatory libel is matter published, without lawful justification or excuse, that is likely to injure the reputation of any person by exposing him to hatred, contempt or ridicule, or that is designed to insult the person of or concerning whom it is published.

Mode of expression

(2) A defamatory libel may be expressed directly or by insinuation or irony

(a) in words legibly marked on any substance; or

(b) by any object signifying a defamatory libel otherwise than by words.


In seeing this definition of defamatory libel, it is absolutely obvious to any reasonable or rational person that the individual known as Vox Day, as well as other individuals associated with the Sad Puppies and Rabid Puppies campaigns—including, I might add, authors such as John C. Wright who publish works with your very organization—have been exposed to hatred, contempt, and ridicule based on being labelled as neo-Nazis, not to mention being labelled as unrepentant sexists, misogynists, and homophobes. Indeed, a simple perusal of numerous blogs, websites, and chat forums easily and obviously testifies to the hatred, contempt and ridicule that individuals such as Vox Day and John C. Wright have suffered in recent days due to the postings issued by your employees. Furthermore, given that Vox Day and John C. Wright are individuals who operate and work within the publishing industry, it is also obvious to any reasonable or rational person that the information published by your two employees will indeed injure the reputation of these two individuals—not to mention the potential injury to other individuals who may be associated with the Sad Puppies or Rabid Puppies and who are public figures and/or writers as well— which thereby means that the statements uttered by your two employees are manifestly meet the definition of defamatory libel in the criminal sense.

Now, it is the case the case that there exists a number of different defences that can be mustered against the charge of defamatory libel (Sections 309 to 315 of the Criminal Code of Canada). And while the specifics of these various sections can be examined in detail if desired, the primary thrust of the defence against defamatory libel is that if the person making the libelous claim reasonably believed that claim to be true and acted in good faith or in the public interest upon making the claim, then they are not guilty of defamatory libel. The problem in this case is that it is highly doubtful whether a reasonable person—and “reasonable person” is being used in the legal sense of a common person of average intelligence, prudence, judgment, and good sense (essentially, a good, but not perfect citizen)—could reasonably come to believe that someone acted in good faith when they labelled Vox Day and/or John C Wright and/or other prominent and even less prominent members of the Sad and Rabid Puppies as neo-Nazis. After all, while in popular culture words can be morphed and changed to suit particular rhetorical ends (such as claiming that libertarians or conservative Catholics are actually akin to Nazis, who were, in reality, socialists strongly opposed to many libertarian and Catholic ideas), in criminal law, words have a standard meaning as accepted by the public and as codified in a dictionary (which is the very thing that we turn to in order to see what the currently accepted meaning of a word is). And while dictionaries obviously vary, a survey of a wide swath of them reveals that the term “neo-Nazi” is generally taken to refer to someone who endorses, whether individually or as part of a group, the ideas of Hitler’s Nazi party (and sometimes acts violently in support of those ideas). A secondary meaning is of a person who holds extreme racist and/or nationalist views.

Anonymous Case June 11, 2015 11:45 AM  

Justice will have been served when Tor is no more, Gallo is supporting herself with an easel on the sidewalk, and Feder is driving a truck.

Until then the backlash against the warped mentalities which have occupied decent society must be escalated.

After all, it's for the children.

Blogger VD June 11, 2015 11:45 AM  

Let me very clear: We have watched for decades while you people have done this to our people over and over again. So, fuck you.

Jill isn't one of them. She's one of ours who is reluctant to use poison gas just because the other side did.

You really need to learn to settle the fuck down. Discipline is key.

Anonymous Damian June 11, 2015 11:46 AM  

So, in light of this standard definition, what is clear is that while your two employees could argue that they reasonably believed someone like Vox Day to hold extreme racist and nationalist views, I contend—and I do so as a long-time reader of Vox Day— that they could not convince a reasonable person, and hence a reasonable jury, that Vox Day is a neo-Nazi in the primary sense of being an individual who endorses the policies and ideas of Hitler’s Nazi party (and sometimes acts violently in support of those ideas). At the same time, it is, in my assessment, beyond a reasonable doubt that your two employees could not demonstrate, to a reasonable person, that other individuals of the Rabid Puppies—such as John C. Wright— meet either definition of the term “neo-Nazi” (let alone meeting the definition of being unrepentant sexists, misogynists, and homophobes). But, at the same time, it is obviously quite clear that being called a neo-Nazi could bring serious harm to one’s reputation and expose one to ridicule and contempt, as has occurred in this case.

Thus my point is the following: while your two employees, if charged with defamatory libel, could mount a defence that might, potentially, exonerate them in a court of law, it is simultaneously the case that those individuals who have been libeled by your two employees would have a very good chance of winning a court trial and having your two employees criminally convicted of defamatory libel if a case was brought against them. Furthermore—and again I say this as a long-time reader of Vox Day, and John C. Wright, and others on the Sad Puppies and Rabid Puppies list—if an investigator had to assess all the evidence in order to determine if labelling these people as neo-Nazis was libelous in a criminal sense, I believe that he could easily form the reasonable grounds necessary to believe that these claims were libelous and thus he could justify laying Criminal Code charges (at least in a Canadian jurisdiction) against your two employees. Let me say that again so it is utterly clear: if any of the main players who had be libelled by your two employees brought this matter forward to a police investigator in a Canadian jurisdiction, I believe that it is clear that that investigator, after assessing all the evidence, could form the reasonable grounds necessary to lay the Criminal Code charge of defamatory libel against your two employees. And while they might be able to successfully counter that charge in a court of law—meaning that it could not be established beyond a reasonable doubt— it is still troubling to me to know that you have two employees who have danced so closely to the line of actually publishing material that could have them criminally convicted of defamatory libel. This is especially troubling given that your two employees work in the publishing industry. And so I ask you to seriously consider this fact in your assessment of what to do with these two employees. After all, as certain people on a certain side of the political spectrum often like to remind conservatives when conservatives are fired from their posts for stating things that are perceived as inflammatory: People have a right to free speech, but they also have a right to suffer the consequences of their free speech.

Finally, and on a personal note, please be aware that although I am not an avid reader of Tor books, the way that this situation is handled will dictate whether or not I allow any of my children to buy any products from your company as well as whether I will encourage my friends and co-workers to do the same. After all, it is just good common-sense not to support a company that employs people who essentially libel those authors that I have an interest in reading and supporting.

Thank you for your time. I look forward to seeing what action you take in resolving this matter.

Sincerely,

Damian.

Blogger John Wright June 11, 2015 11:46 AM  

@ Rabbi B jere7my's lengthy rant, I find it amusing and preposterous that he (or anyone) would spin out such an elaborate fantasy of pseudo-psychoanalysis to such a simple situation: a group of customers and professionals were insulted grossly by a high ranking officer at a major -- nay, THE major -- SF publisher in New York, are now demanding she no longer be allowed to serve those customers nor work in harness with those professionals.

I suppose when one's entire philosophy of life consists of disqualifying without ever once engaging one's opponents in politics, art, economics, religion, history, or any other field of thought, the disqualification narrative of lies and make-believe must grow more and more elaborate as one papers over more and more gaping holes through which reality threatens to peer.

Anonymous Donn #0114 June 11, 2015 11:46 AM  

Jill - She's an associate publisher and the thread was promoting a Tor product. Can't get more job related or 'face of the company' than that. She's not the lobby receptionist or in the steno-pool she's an exec and was on the subject of Tor's products.

Second, she insulted me, my family, and my family's honor. She did not apologize for that. Only for making me 'upset' for insulting me, my family, and our honor. So I feel it is entirely within Tor's rights to continue to employ her and it is entirely within my rights and obligation to myself and my ancestors to boycott until she resigns or is fired.

Traffic ticket? No, she slandered me. I haven't seen an apology for that yet and it's simply too late now. Now I want to see her move on to greener pastures where she will, I am sure bring just as much good press to her future employer as her present employer.

Blogger Danby June 11, 2015 11:47 AM  

Forcing a woman (not even an editor) to resign from her job after she said one wrong thing a while back on a Facebook thread sounds like a prison sentence for jaywalking. It even sounds a little fascist, though, as Orwell said way back in the 40s, the term "fascist" has become almost entirely meaningless.

We

Don't

Care

She's a Strong Woman (tm) who is out to show all us misogyinist neo-nazis up, to do her little part to destroy us. She would happily do the same thing to me or anyone who looks like me. So screw her, If she's a warrior, she's a target.

Blogger Joshua Dyal June 11, 2015 11:48 AM  

Forcing a woman (not even an editor) to resign from her job after she said one wrong thing a while back on a Facebook thread sounds like a prison sentence for jaywalking.

You are correct. But as stated before, we would be merely playing by their 'rules'.


No, she's not correct. The government is not involved. Therefore relating this to any system of government--fascism or otherwise--is ludicrous and stupid. Also; nobody is 'forcing' anyone to do anything. Sending angry letters to Tom Doherty, anyone else at Tor or anyone else at MacMillan informing them of my intentions vis a viz the insulting and unprofessional behavior of their senior employees and how that relates to my intentions to do business with them in the future is not forcing anyone to do anything and it is not fascist. Calling it either of those things is not honest, or at least completely not correct.

Anonymous buzzcut #207 June 11, 2015 11:49 AM  

Raise the Bismarck!

Anonymous ZT June 11, 2015 11:50 AM  

Given the SJW penchant for changing the meaning of words "neo-Nazi" can only mean "people who care nothing about race and only about how people represent themselves by their actions.".

Anonymous Jill June 11, 2015 11:52 AM  

"Your change in characterization of your objection from "forcing people to..." to "forcing women to...." is instructive. You women just can't help appealing to male respect for women as women for all your grand talk of equality.

Let me very clear: We have watched for decades while you people have done this to our people over and over again. So, fuck you."

My change in characterization was based off standard use of language. In the first comment, I was talking about a man and a woman; in the second, I was talking about only a woman. And what exactly do you mean by "you people"? What is this "you people" I belong to who has been doing things to "your people" for decades? Who is "your people"?

"You're not very good at this." Good at what? Pointing out that the terms "fascist" and "neo-Nazi" have come to be almost meaningless pejoratives, beginning in about the 40s, according to Orwell?

Holding to an opposition view, that is, that the punishment of forced resignation doesn't meet the crime, is not concern trolling, although as a business, Tor can do what they like (fire her, ask her to resign, whatever). But it's nice that I've been called a concern troll for the first time. There's always a first for everything.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 11, 2015 11:52 AM  

I'm going to borrow Nate's line from a while back - Go to bed old woman, the men are talking.

Blogger John Wright June 11, 2015 11:53 AM  

"None of them actually want or expect Irene Gallo to be fired, unless it’s for the lulz, because that would be a capitulation to the outrage culture they’ve fought so hard against—but, deep down, they do."

Can anyone parse this sentence? It sounds like he says A is A and A is not-A in one breath.

Irene Gallo should be fired only if she lacks the good form to resign gracefully, and be assured of a good recommendation to show her next prospective employer.

How someone could read the comments demanding her firing and interpret them to mean the precise opposite is a mystery best left to the branch of psychopathology (or exorcism) that deals with the mental disorders brought on by postmodern political correctness, morlockery, and social justice posturing.

Blogger VFM 188* June 11, 2015 11:55 AM  

Lee was 93. 9+3 = 12. 1+2 = 3. The Nazis had the THIRD Reich. Lee was clearly a Nazi.

No Nate, this is the thread-winner.

It's getting increasingly hard to pick thread winners. There's a lot of talent here and, ominously, it's increasing....

Anonymous Huckleberry (#87) -- est. 1977 June 11, 2015 12:00 PM  

and tend to react more along the lines of throwing a tomahawk at my enemy as the first instinct

I'd wager that, 99 times out of 100, yours is the best tactic, because strategy is for pussies*.

* Not really

Anonymous Donn #0114 June 11, 2015 12:01 PM  

Lee's not really dead. He's just waiting in his coffin until sunset when he'll emerge with his brides of evil.

There was a good actor and a true entertainer.

Blogger Student in Blue June 11, 2015 12:02 PM  

Sieg Oy? すごい.

Blogger Elocutioner0226 June 11, 2015 12:06 PM  

sounds like a prison sentence for jaywalking.
False. Denigrating your customers as nazis and your authors' works as "bad-to-reprehensible" is far beyond the line for termination in every professional organization I've ever seen. She didn't tell an off-color joke and apologize for it. She doubled down. The Doherty post was a note in her permanent file for sniping jaywalkers from the rooftop.

Anonymous Sen Ekzisto June 11, 2015 12:11 PM  

"The Puppies are entitled to their literary opinions and tastes, but to my mind any of them who do not repudiate Vox Day are neo-Nazis by association. You are responsible for who you associate with or take as an ally. "

Can't wait for the TOR Publishing Inquisition:

Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Rabid Puppies?
Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Sad Puppies?
Do you now and forever repudiate Vox Day and his Ilk?

Blogger Mark June 11, 2015 12:11 PM  

@xsyq #43, I did make the archive before tweeting Moshe's comment. I just ran out of characters for the full archive link. However, Moshe's statement is still there.

Blogger Rabbi B June 11, 2015 12:13 PM  

"Which is doubly amusing, because it mean that they have subconsciously cast themselves in the role of the bad guy and the puppies the role of the good guy."

That's the part I found most amusing. "You're just as reprehensible as we are! So there!"

Blogger Rabbi B June 11, 2015 12:16 PM  

"Can anyone parse this sentence?"

Perhaps he thinks English is a dread language.

Blogger Rabbi B June 11, 2015 12:16 PM  

*dead

Blogger Tommy Hass June 11, 2015 12:16 PM  

Vox being a Zionist is like me being pro La Raza.

Blogger VFM 188* June 11, 2015 12:17 PM  

Enjoying the by-play between Jourdan and Vox, including Vox smacking on Jourdan. I agree with Jourdan. I understand Jourdan. I like Jourdan. I feel the same way as Jourdan. I get Jourdan.

But we are minions, vile and faceless, and must obey the Dark Overlord of the Evil Legion of Evil.

Sorry.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 11, 2015 12:17 PM  

Jill isn't one of them. She's one of ours who is reluctant to use poison gas just because the other side did.

I think Jill is a woman letting natural solipsism get the better of her by being horrified at the thought that another woman might be held accountable for her behavior.

Jill, you can do better. If you can't, you're going to hear "shut up" a lot.

Blogger Chiva June 11, 2015 12:18 PM  

@Joshua Dyal. I stand corrected.

Blogger VFM 188* June 11, 2015 12:20 PM  

Well, in fairness to Jill, at least it won't repeatedly be...Shut up Tad.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera June 11, 2015 12:21 PM  

How someone could read the comments demanding her firing and interpret them to mean the precise opposite is a mystery best left to the branch of psychopathology (or exorcism) that deals with the mental disorders brought on by postmodern political correctness, morlockery, and social justice posturing.

I don't think Anonymous Conservative comments here.

OpenID malcolmthecynic June 11, 2015 12:21 PM  

Irene Gallo should be fired only if she lacks the good form to resign gracefully, and be assured of a good recommendation to show her next prospective employer.

A good recommendation and a warning that she has a history of insulting her customers.

Anonymous Moshe Feder Watch June 11, 2015 12:21 PM  

If Christian gun dealers have no qualms about DEATHS their products cause, why should florists & bakers worry what weddings they serve?

-- Moshe Feder

Blogger Harsh June 11, 2015 12:23 PM  

Forcing a woman (not even an editor) to resign from her job after she said one wrong thing a while back on a Facebook thread sounds like a prison sentence for jaywalking.

We did not pass the law, we are simply enforcing it.

Blogger David-093 June 11, 2015 12:24 PM  

"Lee was 93. 9+3 = 12. 1+2 = 3. The Nazis had the THIRD Reich. Lee was clearly a Nazi."

It was a disguise. 9 + 3 = 12. 12 = the number of the tribes of Israel.


.....



WAKE UP SHEEPLE!

Anonymous Jill June 11, 2015 12:25 PM  

"So I feel it is entirely within Tor's rights to continue to employ her and it is entirely within my rights and obligation to myself and my ancestors to boycott until she resigns or is fired."

I agree with this. I myself haven't purchased a Tor book in a very long time and will continue not purchasing their books. I agree that what she said fits into slander rather than just gossip. I've been slandered at work; many people have. Slander against me doesn't really bother me. I don't know why. Maybe it should. If I were to get bothered by it, I would hope my company would *publicly* come out against the person and their slander, demote them, discipline them, but not fire them unless it was a repeated pattern of behavior. But this is not my battle, and I'm not much of a strategist. Also, I have work to do.

Anonymous Emperor of Icecream June 11, 2015 12:25 PM  

Good form can bite me.

OpenID malcolmthecynic June 11, 2015 12:25 PM  

If Christian gun dealers have no qualms about DEATHS their products cause, why should florists & bakers worry what weddings they serve?

It's like they're incapable of thinking.

Anonymous Elijah Rhodes June 11, 2015 12:27 PM  

It's funny how leftist ideologies inevitably lead to totalitarianism, but we're the bad guys because we dare demand the resignation of someone who would send us all to a gulag if she had her way.

Anonymous Stilicho #0066 June 11, 2015 12:29 PM  

My comments to Tor executives re: Feder's statments:

Moshe Feder has apparently taken Tom Doherty's statement as carte blanche to issue his own untrue, unwarranted, and disgusting attacks on Tor customers and to support Irene Gallo by characterizing his public statements as his personal opinion. However, as a senior employee of Tor, his public statements about Tor customers, authors, and the field of science fiction and fantasy publishing continue to reflect directly on Tor. Let's be clear, neither he nor Ms Gallo were expressing opinions on food, presidential elections, or the price of tea in China...they were talking about Tor's business: publishing science fiction and fantasy. I ask you, Mr. Weber, how often do you have to issue a disclaimer about your own statements about the publishing business, saying that they are only personal opinions and do not reflect the opinions or values of the publishing house for which you work?

Anonymous Jill June 11, 2015 12:29 PM  

"I think Jill is a woman letting natural solipsism get the better of her by being horrified at the thought that another woman might be held accountable for her behavior."

Absolutely false. I believe ALL people should be held accountable for their behavior. They should be held accountable at the level of their action. It's a biblical concept that the punishment meet the crime. For the record, I don't think Tim Hunt should be held accountable at all because he did not present any kind of slanderous behavior. (In my original comment, I was comparing the two situations.)

Anonymous Aeoli Pera June 11, 2015 12:31 PM  

Calm down the monkey brains. Remember, the battleground is the opinions of reasonable, everyday people who showed up five minutes ago and are reading through these comments. Yelling and throwing leaves in the air is dumb.

I think the VFMs need a Jumbotron rule for their comments. Fighting a high-tech 4th-generation war is one thing, riling yourself up for a stone age rumble is another thing which is not helpful at all.

Blogger Cail Corishev June 11, 2015 12:35 PM  

"You're not very good at this." Good at what? Pointing out that the terms "fascist" and "neo-Nazi" have come to be almost meaningless pejoratives, beginning in about the 40s, according to Orwell?

You did that after saying we sound "a little fascist." So if fascist no longer means anything to you, you're concerned about....what? That makes no sense. On the other hand, telling right-wingers they sound a little fascist is an extremely common leftist tactic to get them to back down.

If you're on our side, great. I don't want to take shots at friends. I respectfully submit for your consideration that your comments included what looked like SJW shaming tactics and concern trolling. I hope you would do the same for me.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera June 11, 2015 12:35 PM  

Good form can bite me.

This is an example of a well-meaning comment which does not pass the 4GW Jumbotron test.

Imagine your neighbor reading this. Are they thinking "Gosh, these Rabid Puppies seem like the normal, reasonable ones reacting to a crazy situation."

Discipline yourselves or the enemy will discipline you, and they won't be nice about it.

Blogger rcocean June 11, 2015 12:35 PM  

I think we need to more people like Jill. Like most concern trolls she's found the key to the whole problem. If only we'd leave the SJW's alone and let them do anything they want - without consequence - everything would be cool. Its our desire to fight back in an effective way that needs to stop. So lets make Jill happy and just lose gracefully while we roll over die.

Blogger rcocean June 11, 2015 12:38 PM  

I find it interesting that all the handwringing moderates and Little Lord Fauntleroy's always gravitate to the Center-right. The SJW left doesn't have them.

Anonymous WaterBoy June 11, 2015 12:40 PM  

Nikis-Knight @ 93: "What other companies does Macmillan own?"

According to their About page:

Our U.S. publishers include Farrar, Straus and Giroux; Henry Holt and Company; Picador; St. Martin’s Press; Tor/Forge; Macmillan Audio; and Macmillan Children’s Publishing Group. Macmillan Publishers is based in New York City, with many of our publishers located in the historic Flatiron Building.


Our German publishers include Argon, Kiepenheuer & Witsch, Rowohlt, S. Fischer, and Droemer Knaur. Further German companies are the liberal art publisher Metzler, the online readers’ community LovelyBooks,the service provider hgv, and the mobile ebook library Skoobe (, which is a Holtzbrinck/Randomhouse joint venture). The publishers are spread across Germany, in Berlin, Frankfurt/Main, Hamburg, Cologne, and Munich.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 11, 2015 12:40 PM  

Absolutely false. I believe ALL people should be held accountable for their behavior. They should be held accountable at the level of their action. It's a biblical concept that the punishment meet the crime. For the record, I don't think Tim Hunt should be held accountable at all because he did not present any kind of slanderous behavior. (In my original comment, I was comparing the two situations.)

You are willfully blind to the actual crime people like Feder and Gallo are guilty of. You see them cross the street to assassinate someone and complain we are overreacting to jaywalking.

Blogger VD June 11, 2015 12:40 PM  

But this is not my battle, and I'm not much of a strategist.

In which case, I recommend leaving the strategy to the strategists and the battle to those actually fighting it. Don't shoot at your own side.

Blogger Rabbi B June 11, 2015 12:41 PM  

"I've been slandered at work; many people have. Slander against me doesn't really bother me. I don't know why."

FWIW, the Jewish understanding of lashon hara (evil speech i.e. slander, gossip, etc.) is that it is akin to shedding innocent blood and, though it may not bother you, we are admonished not to stand idly by while innocent blood is being shed.



Blogger Danby June 11, 2015 12:42 PM  

It's a biblical concept that the punishment meet the crime.

There's the problem.
This isn't a courtroom.
This is a battlefield.

Anonymous Case June 11, 2015 12:48 PM  

"Calm down the monkey brains"

.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtbOmpTnyOc

Blogger Daniel June 11, 2015 12:51 PM  

Ha ha. Jill is not a concern troll, and she has probably published more satire of the SJW mindset than anyone here.

She doesn't like this cultural decline into speech policing...like a lot of us. She is not a minion, so her objections are not unreasoned.

Target is thataway. Keep your eye on it.

Blogger David-093 June 11, 2015 12:54 PM  

"In which case, I recommend leaving the strategy to the strategists and the battle to those actually fighting it. Don't shoot at your own side."

But that sounds means.

Anonymous BGS June 11, 2015 1:00 PM  

Forcing a woman (not even an editor) to resign from her job after she said one wrong thing a while back on a Facebook thread sounds like a prison sentence for jaywalking.

A nurse was fired from her job for posting on Facebook what Dr Ben Carson said about measles coming from illegal aliens.

Christian gun dealers have no qualms about DEATHS their products cause, why should florists & bakers worry what weddings they serve?
There is that akward situation when Christian gun dealers sell the shotguns that they gays point at the bakers for their SHOTGUN GAY WEDDING CAKE.

It's getting increasingly hard to pick thread winners. There's a lot of talent here and, ominously, it's increasing

I haven't seen anything better than JCW's that I added to my stolen ideas page.
"I suppose when one's entire philosophy of life consists of disqualifying without ever once engaging one's opponents in politics, art, economics, religion, history, or any other field of thought, the disqualification narrative of lies and make-believe must grow more and more elaborate as one papers over more and more gaping holes through which reality threatens to peer. "

Anonymous Jill June 11, 2015 1:02 PM  

"You are willfully blind to the actual crime people like Feder and Gallo are guilty of. You see them cross the street to assassinate someone and complain we are overreacting to jaywalking."

No, I don't think single Facebook comments are the same as assassinations. If that were the case, there would be a blood bath all over the internet. But as VD said, I should leave the strategy to the strategists. Work calls.

Blogger Cail Corishev June 11, 2015 1:02 PM  

Forcing a woman (not even an editor) to resign from her job after she said one wrong thing a while back on a Facebook thread sounds like a prison sentence for jaywalking.

If this were only about "one wrong thing" on a Facebook thread, you might be right, but it's not. In the context of the battle that's been going on within SF/F for the past few years, her "one wrong thing" was a declaration of solidarity with those who want to drive certain authors, editors, and publishers out of their jobs for holding wrong opinions. These are people who cheer when someone loses his job for saying "one wrong thing," and she carried their flag proudly.

So demanding that her job be forfeit is not at all a "prison sentence for jaywalking"; it's an eye for an eye, perfectly proportionate to her offense. If losing one's job seems extreme -- well yes, it is, isn't it?

Anonymous Reziac June 11, 2015 1:03 PM  

Jourdan says: "The idea of free speech in our tradition is that the government and its institutions cannot make laws to silence free men. It does not mean that free men cannot react to the speech of others, up to and including arguing that they are dangerous and need to be removed from power."

Absolutely. I agree with you. Arguing for someone's removal from power is a valid use of free speech. Reacting to the speech of others, likewise. But I think it also becomes a perilous argument -- shall we remove everyone who says something we think is disagreeable or dangerous? Are we not, in the opinion of some, making dangerous speech right here and now? Might not others wish to remove and silence *us*, as being *their* idea of dangerous or disagreeable?

[And I see my previous comment got duct-taped. Irony.]

Anonymous Jill June 11, 2015 1:04 PM  

"A nurse was fired from her job for posting on Facebook what Dr Ben Carson said about measles coming from illegal aliens."

It's retarded that she was fired for that.

Blogger Elocutioner0226 June 11, 2015 1:05 PM  

"You really need to learn to settle the fuck down. Discipline is key."

Oh shit, it's Malwyn! Run!

Blogger David-093 June 11, 2015 1:09 PM  

The SJWs set the terms for this fight: nobody's job on the Right is safe; they will find them, harass them, get them fired, end their careers, anything to harm them without actually assaulting them (that's for SWAT to do). The Right has now decided to play by their rules and respond by going after their jobs.

If the SJWs want it to end....sorry to say but there's not really much they can do at this point. Years of observing their behaviors has shown what they're all about. Now that their weapons are being used against them they hate it and want us to play fair (i.e. shut up and suffer).

Nope, not anymore. The SJWs wanted this fight, they can see it through to the end.

Anonymous Scintan June 11, 2015 1:10 PM  

Absolutely. I agree with you. Arguing for someone's removal from power is a valid use of free speech. Reacting to the speech of others, likewise. But I think it also becomes a perilous argument -- shall we remove everyone who says something we think is disagreeable or dangerous? Are we not, in the opinion of some, making dangerous speech right here and now? Might not others wish to remove and silence *us*, as being *their* idea of dangerous or disagreeable?

You're simply raising the oft-repeated debate about "Do we lower ourselves to.....". It's a matter of individual conscience, and it's usually a sliding scale based upon that conscience.

I'm reminded of listening to people who are watching a parent dealing with their kids. One child smacks another. The parent walks up to the aggressor, smacks that child and asks "How do you like it? We don't hit others."

One person sees that and says "Nicely done". Another sees that and starts claiming hypocrisy. Both are spot on, based upon their perspective.

Blogger Rabbi B June 11, 2015 1:12 PM  

"If this were only about "one wrong thing" on a Facebook thread, you might be right, but it's not."

She also cast aspersions on the works that she helps publish, going so far as to call them reprehensible! Yes, I am sure that's what every employer wants in an employee: "We produce reprehensible products, but that's just my PERSONAL opinion on my PERSONAL but public Facebook page. No harm, no foul."

rep·re·hen·si·ble
ˌreprəˈhensəb(ə)l/
adjective
adjective: reprehensible

deserving censure or condemnation.

synonyms: deplorable, disgraceful, discreditable, despicable, blameworthy, culpable, wrong, bad, shameful, dishonorable, objectionable, opprobrious, repugnant, inexcusable, unforgivable, indefensible, unjustifiable

A professional publisher opining that the works they publish should be censured! Now, that's a genius marketing plan if there ever was one.

Anonymous Rusty Fife June 11, 2015 1:14 PM  

"Forcing a woman (not even an editor) to resign from her job after she said one wrong thing a while back on a Facebook thread sounds like a prison sentence for jaywalking. It even sounds a little fascist, though, as Orwell said way back in the 40s, the term "fascist" has become almost entirely meaningless. "

You are also forgetting about the non-profit sector rehabilitation program for all walking wounded SJWs.

I'll guarantee she will have a job as an editor at some foundation within the year. All these Fabians take care of their own. You see it with every leftist who somehow manages to screw up bad enough to get fired.

Blogger Rabbi B June 11, 2015 1:15 PM  

" . . . shall we remove everyone who says something we think is disagreeable or dangerous?"

That's not why we're asking for her resignation.

Anonymous BigGaySteve June 11, 2015 1:17 PM  

next is accusations of honest-to-goodness domestic terrorism.

I did point out before that the IRA is driving moslem child rapists from Ireland http://www.commdiginews.com/world-news/europe/muslims-flee-northern-ireland-to-escape-anti-islam-violence-18836/

Everyone is a neo Nazi! Cool! I hope there's a T-shirt.

They are sold out but we have a nice selection of EVERYONE IS HISTORY IS GAY t-shirts along with afrocentrism EVERYONE IN HISTORY IS ACTUALLY BLACK & WHITE PEOPLE IN CAVES STOLE ALL OUR KNOWLEDGE, for some reason schools are not ordering them to go with their common core history books.

Blogger Cail Corishev June 11, 2015 1:28 PM  

It's retarded that she was fired for that.

Indeed. Good and decent people have been telling the SJWs that for years. They've tried to appeal to the rule of law, to their sense of fairness and proportion, to compassion and forgiveness, even to simple self-interest by pointing out that such rules could be used against them someday if the pendulum of power swings the other way. None of it has worked; they just keep getting worse.

So if getting someone fired is too harsh, what do you suggest? What do you think would convince them to ease up and not try to destroy the livelihood of the next person who says girls don't make good scientists or homosexual marriage is a farce? Daniel says you have an insight into the SJW mindset, so this is an honest question: what would you have us do?

Blogger Nikis-Knight June 11, 2015 1:33 PM  

Some here are still using words like bother, offend, and hurt (as in feelings). We are not moved by our emotions here, but by the goal of eliminating discivic social norms by enforcing heretofore double standards equally. Standards set by our opposition. Having a "no hitting" rule for your children but only punishing one child for the behavior is a good way to raise a bully, and ensure your children hate each other. Especially when the bully constantly hears how noble he is.

Anonymous Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan June 11, 2015 1:36 PM  

"Lee was 93. 9+3 = 12. 1+2 = 3. The Nazis had the THIRD Reich. Lee was clearly a Nazi."

You honkies get off a my turf.

Blogger VFM 188* June 11, 2015 1:42 PM  

New thread winner!

#190

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