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Monday, June 08, 2015

SF war to the knife

One would expect Peter Grant to recognize one:
I've had a couple of threatening e-mails from supporters of Ms. Gallo's position, warning me that if I (and/or other indie authors) call for a boycott of Tor books, they'll call for a boycott of my/our books in return.  This made me laugh out loud.  As those of you who've read my books will know, I don't think I can be described as 'progressive' or 'SJW'.  Heck, read the header of this blog - it'll tell you in a nutshell my position on most things!  I have grave doubts whether readers of the progressive persuasion have ever bought my books - so why would a boycott from that part of the reading spectrum hold any fears for me?

No.  It's becoming increasingly clear that the problem lies in the corporate culture that's taken over at Tor Books and Tor.com.  Four individuals currently or previously associated with Tor's management and publishing activities at a senior level have now made statements that I can only regard as biased beyond logical comprehension.  They are Patrick Nielsen Hayden (manager of science fiction books at Tor);  his wife Teresa Nielsen Hayden (listed by Wikipedia as a 'consulting editor' for Tor Books, and formerly a senior editor there - also the publisher of the well-known web log and forum 'Making Light');  Moshe Feder (also a consulting editor for Tor Books);  and Irene Gallo (Associate Publisher of Tor.com and Creative Director of Tor Books).  Certain Tor-published authors, primarily John Scalzi but also including others, have spouted the 'party line' in their support and/or on their own account as well.

There's an old military saying when bad things happen:  "Once may be an accident.  Twice may be coincidence.  Three or more times is enemy action."  In the same way, I could understand one senior Tor representative holding such views.  I might even accept two.  Four is too many.  This is not coincidence.  It's concerted, organized, deliberate enemy action.  Tor as a publisher appears to either espouse, or tolerate (and actively encourage), views like this.  The utterances of these individuals appear to indicate that the company supports lies, slander, libel and viciousness as debating and/or promotional tactics.  I hope that the reality belies that appearance;  but that's for Tor to say, not me - and back up their words with actions.  Weasel words will no longer be acceptable in any way, shape or form.

THIS CANNOT BE ALLOWED TO CONTINUE.
It won't be. Let them threaten. What are they going to do, continue to not buy books from Castalia House, from Baen, and from independents? Are they going to keep not reading what they repeatedly proclaim to be terribly written bad-to-reprehensible works without ever having read them? What are they going to do, have the Board vote me out of SFWA again? Are they going to continue not giving Nebulas to John Wright, and Sarah Hoyt, and Larry Correia, and Brad Torgersen? The reality is that we have the decisive advantage here because we have long supported them.

But we don't have to.

I have can count dozens of Tor and Forge books on my bookshelves surrounding me, and that doesn't count the bookshelves in the halls, in the bedrooms, and in the attic. But I don't have to buy any more. Why should I, when the Senior Editor of Science Fiction at Tor has done nothing for me except insult and attack me for ten years now? A lot of people are getting sick of their constant bullshit, even people who have absolutely nothing to do with me in any way, shape, or form.
"I'm an author, involved with the publishing industry. Does that mean that I have the moral authority to point out to you that she is making actual, factually untrue statements here? She might be a really wonderful individual, in person, but her facts are dead wrong, bordering on libelous, and taking a position on a hotbutton issue really undercuts Tor's credibility as a politically neutral, or even tolerant, business."
- Jim Butcher, author, The Dresden Files
Apparently the bestselling and Hugo-nominated Mr. Butcher didn't much appreciate being described as an author of "bad-to-reprehensible" books.

Back in April, Larry Correia and I, among others, encouraged everyone to leave Tor Books out of it. We made it clear that our problems were with certain individuals at Tor, not the organization itself. But as Peter Grant points out, Irene Gallo's comments, to say nothing of Moshe Feder's and John Scalzi's (now that the organization has bet its future on him, Scalzi is relevant in this regard), appear to indicate that we were wrong and our problem is with the organization as it is presently comprised after all.

What do you think? I'm interested in hearing everyone's arguments, pro and con.

UPDATE: I would certainly hope that they didn't.

2h2 hours ago
Happy Monday! We appreciate your comments & would like to remind you that the views of our employees do not reflect those of the publisher.

Labels: ,

127 Comments:

Anonymous zen0 June 08, 2015 11:56 AM  

There are numerous and increasing incidents of corporations requiring people to step down or be fired for behaviour that is believed to reflect badly on the corporation.

Tor needs to keep pace with the times.
Evolve or die.

Anonymous Curious but not an SJW June 08, 2015 12:00 PM  

Wow, thanks for the link, because I see that he has a new book out. Must read it.

I refuse to buy new books from Tor, Orbit and those others.

Blogger Copperheaded June 08, 2015 12:01 PM  

Appears obvious that either Tor approves of their statements or they are totally ignorant of them. A purge would be well advised.

Blogger buzzardist June 08, 2015 12:04 PM  

If you were taking the total war approach, Tor is either the enemy, or else it is harboring, protecting, and sustaining the enemy. Are there innocents in Tor? Perhaps. But they've been given warning. Those who stay do so at their own personal risks. If the only thing that will force Tor to clean house is enough people refusing to buy their books, then so be it. Collateral damage is acceptable.

If this is 4GW, then Tor might be a necessary evil. The institution appears to be a magnet and rallying point for SJWs. They are more likely to show their faces because they feel like Tor gives them protection. Keeping Tor on life support might draw a few more foes out.

Blogger DaveofSpades June 08, 2015 12:05 PM  

I never thought there was any doubt that the power movers at Tor, and therefore the company as an entity, were firmly in the enemy's camp. Sure, some individuals that work for Tor may not be, but as as whole they are the SJW Reich.

Blogger jayb June 08, 2015 12:06 PM  

'Scuse my ignorance on this one: What is the relationship of Orbit to this issue?

Anonymous Spooner June 08, 2015 12:10 PM  

Nuke 'Em.
Tor wants Moar War, so give it to them good and hard.

Blogger Shimshon June 08, 2015 12:14 PM  

Vox, I mostly follow this stuff through your posts. It seems to me that if multiple members of senior management at Tor can say outrageous, even libelous, statements over and over with impunity, whether it's by design or happenstance, Tor itself should at this point be held responsible (and thus legitimately subject to boycott).

Anonymous Nathan June 08, 2015 12:14 PM  

Tor delenda est.

As for how, I'll leave that up to the "officers."

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents June 08, 2015 12:15 PM  

I have many Tor paperbacks around the house. But Tor has become just another propaganda arm of the permanent Party. Giving money to Tor is now just like giving money to the NY Times.

Now the only way I will buy anything published by Tor will be in a second hand bookshop. I see no reason to hand money to those who lie about people like me and hate people like me.

OpenID mattse001 June 08, 2015 12:17 PM  

In negotiations, whoever wants "it" least is the one with the most power. Indifference is a beautiful thing.

Blogger Daniel June 08, 2015 12:20 PM  

A) The powers at Tor have been talking publicly about engineering the future publications since at least 1992.
B) The decline in mass (single author exceptions) quality of SF from 1995-2015 at Tor is measurable.
C) The media mouthpieces for Tor require more than a lone badmouthing PR person.
D) Not one Tor rep has come out in favor of their own books for the Hugos.

The Tor of Babylon has fallen.

Blogger Elocutioner0226 June 08, 2015 12:21 PM  

For the far left everything is personal. If they choose to leverage, or allow to be leveraged, their careers and companies to wage war then I say we finish what they started.

If you act as a professional I'll consider your product. Deliberately insult me and you'll *NEVER* see another penny from me. And if you're lucky I'll just ignore you.

Let's put this in context. They are a small company in a niche market competing against indie publishers, other small publishers, e-books, every other medium of entertainment, and the accumulated writing history of mankind. And they choose to piss on their biggest revenue source. They ain't rocket scientists. Hell, after this year they mostly won't be rocket recipients either.

Anonymous Porky June 08, 2015 12:26 PM  

Why do you care?

Blogger Minion777 June 08, 2015 12:26 PM  

Since Macmillan Publishers Ltd was fined for corruption in Africa:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2011-07-22/macmillan-publishers-must-pay-18-million-for-africa-corruption

The company has implemented a strong internal anti-corruption stance that has made waves throughout the company.

These 4 Tor managers could have incurred in unethical behavior as defined by the published code of conduct:
http://se.macmillan.com/FILES/CODE-OF-CONDUCT/

Macmillan even has a channel to denounce such violations:
http://speakup.macmillan.com/Template.aspx?Language=English

It’s uncertain what would happen if the unethical behavior of those 4 managers were to be reported, specifically:
- Gaming award ceremonies to unethically inflate their sales.
- Promoting fake reviews of competing products, harming fair trade.
- Libeling and mischaracterizing competing authors, opening the gates for lawsuits.

It would be a total shame for these poor 4 Torlings if several minions came across this information and were to document and denounce their violations of the code of conduct. I beckon everyone not to write a properly worded message with support evidence of his or her transgressions as it might affect their employment and career opportunities, after all they would never do that to other authors.

Cheers,

Blogger James Sullivan June 08, 2015 12:29 PM  

I usually keep to myself about these things but it seems like not initiating a boycott is the moderate, "reasonable" course of action.

But it seems that the only reason the savages got this far was good, decent people being "reasonable". So, at this point, they want war.

Give them war.

Blogger VD June 08, 2015 12:29 PM  

What is the relationship of Orbit to this issue?

That was a mistake. I meant Tor/Forge. Corrected, thanks.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer June 08, 2015 12:36 PM  

Whenever someone on the right gets fired because they express opinions that the left disapproves of and it is pointed out that firing someone because of their political beliefs is not conducive to a civil society and perhaps we should all agree to disagree someone always pops up to state that "opinions have consequences."

They then go on to state that firing someone for their political views is not a free speech issue and that if you don't want to get fired then you shouldn't express such views, especially since they are self-evidentially evil.

I say it is high time that those of us on the side of civilization make sure that "opinions have consequences" applies to the other side as well. I certainly will not be buying any books published by Tor. After all, why would I wish to give money to people who deem me a Nazi?

It really is just that simple. Don't buy things from people who think you are a Nazi.

Anonymous Elijah Rhodes June 08, 2015 12:45 PM  

If the powers that be at Tor were in disagreement with what members of their management are espousing publicly they would have been censured long ago. The fact that Hayden et al speak with impunity tells us everything we need to know about the depth of the rot within that organization. They are enemies indeed.

Blogger Salt June 08, 2015 12:46 PM  

Any thought of boycott has a problem in the numbers. What numbers would Tor listen too? Are there enough of us who would actually boycott? Boycotting a gas company has an immediate effect; Tor takes time.

Unlike Gamergate and Gawker, Tor does not have advertisers to sustain them. Whom Tor advertises with, now that may be an opening. Also, this concerns more than Tor and their readers. What these four people have said reflects on everyone not holding their opinions. Are these four not indirectly saying the same thing about games?

Blogger Aeoli Pera June 08, 2015 12:46 PM  

If she is setting fires at Tor, why would we encourage Tor to kick her out? She should be inside when the thing goes up in flames, and preferably near the top of the building.

Anonymous Rico June 08, 2015 12:47 PM  

If they hate us then why not hate them back. Tor delenda est.

Blogger Aeoli Pera June 08, 2015 12:48 PM  

Any thought of boycott has a problem in the numbers. What numbers would Tor listen too?

It's all about the margins. I don't know the numbers, but I know Borders booksellers isn't around anymore.

Anonymous Paul #348 June 08, 2015 12:48 PM  

Kaboom?

Blogger Cataline Sergius June 08, 2015 12:51 PM  

A few days ago I saw the plaintive question of "Where's Tom?"

At this point I'm afraid Tom Doherty is an old lord of the manor held prisoner by his attentive and caring servants.

Sure he can fire them but the manor house will collapse without them.

SJW Entryism appears to be complete at TOR books. It would take a Night of the Long Knives to get it back under Tom's control and he can only do that if he has an entire management team ready to take over if he throws PNH and his crew under the bus.

And honestly who could he get to replace them?

Blogger Aeoli Pera June 08, 2015 12:54 PM  

Why does it take people so long to adapt to a new situation? This is a war. Peter Grant said it: "Four is too many." The rot is institutional. There are millions of Irene Gallos waiting to take her spot.

Tor must be destroyed.

Blogger VD June 08, 2015 12:55 PM  

And honestly who could he get to replace them?

I expect he could get all the help he needed from Toni Weisskopf. And Tor, we are told, is a series of fiefdoms. He doesn't need to can David Hartwell and the others, just PNH, Moshe, and Gallo.

Blogger maniacprovost June 08, 2015 12:55 PM  

I have a problem though, because I will definitely preorder the final Count to the Eschaton books.Granted, i don't want to cross subsidize the morlocks with no chests, but having my own hardcover copy is not negotiable.

Solutions?

Anonymous VFM.0157 aka Forrest Bishop June 08, 2015 12:55 PM  

Gallo has cost Tor a great deal of business Goodwill. To put a test valuation on it in the manner of a step function input, say US$1,000,000.00 So the company’s value is decreasing not only due to sagging sales and the recent loss of control over the Hugo and other awards, but also to the reticence of current and future customers, current and future authors, and anyone who might care to work there anymore. (Come to think of it, we might soon see some of the employees bail and tell.) They are losing their cred.

Most good corporate execs have read their Machiavelli. He would counsel them to annihilate not only the Prince, but all of the Prince’s court and all of his relatives. This is commonly done in a takeover. Changing out one or two key people doesn’t work. The new people pick up the old culture and continue it. So Macmillan can either continue with a losing proposition, attempt to save the ship with a new crew, or cut the unit loose before its valuation hits the bottom.

Once the pigsty is cleaned out, the sow can no longer return to her mire.

Blogger rcocean June 08, 2015 12:57 PM  

"Any thought of boycott has a problem in the numbers. What numbers would Tor listen too?"

Yep, we're defeated before we even start. Lets just give up. Its silly to fight back or injure the other party that's attacked you, unless it can proven in advance that you have 100% chance of winning. And while we're at it, wouldn't a real Christian just turn the other cheek?

Blogger Dexter June 08, 2015 12:57 PM  

I have grave doubts whether readers of the progressive persuasion have ever bought my books - so why would a boycott from that part of the reading spectrum hold any fears for me?

That's kinda how Tor and the likes of Scalzi would probably regard a boycott threat from me -- "you're not buying my books anyway, so what changes now?"

Blogger rcocean June 08, 2015 12:58 PM  

And while we're at it, doesn't Vox have more important things to do? And do we really want to stoop the their level? And what about the Children?

Anonymous Alexander, #10 June 08, 2015 1:00 PM  

I am but a faceless minion of the most vile sort, but as our Evil overlord has permitted me to scratch crude pictographs into mud outside my hovel so that I might express my desires in this matter, I have little choice but to comply:

Burn it down. A world without Tor.

Blogger Alexander June 08, 2015 1:05 PM  

No - Scalzi knows that's not the case.

He benefited massively from instapundit. Instapundit still throws Scalzi out there for reasons that elude me, but the comment section is overwhelmingly negative when he does.

Still, the day Instapundit quits mentioning him entirely, or even better throws up one of his tantrums, I've no doubt he'll feel it in the bank.

Blogger CM June 08, 2015 1:08 PM  

This made me laugh out loud. As those of you who've read my books will know, I don't think I can be described as 'progressive' or 'SJW'. Heck, read the header of this blog - it'll tell you in a nutshell my position on most things! I have grave doubts whether readers of the progressive persuasion have ever bought my books - so why would a boycott from that part of the reading spectrum hold any fears for me?

Now... just to get more people to understand this and to stop caving and bowing to these idiots.

Anonymous Donn #0114 June 08, 2015 1:10 PM  

Tor needs to sent packing.

Blogger Elocutioner0226 June 08, 2015 1:12 PM  

Alinsky #4: Make the enemy play by their own rules.

Have we publicly heard from ANYBODY in Tor who will denounce any of these four? Why won't any of them distance themselves from any of their vile comments? Not so much as a non-denial denial.


"D) Not one Tor rep has come out in favor of their own books for the Hugos." - #12 Daniel

Make of that what you will.

Blogger Salt June 08, 2015 1:13 PM  

Yep, we're defeated before we even start. Lets just give up.

How much of Tor is pink? My guess is well greater than 50%. People who would probably boycott I think already do - they don't buy the pink and I regard the ~JCW blue as gravy for Tor, not the meat. If ~JCW were the meat, would Tor be permitting of these four?

The pink wouldn't boycott; they'd probably buy 2 or 3 copies in support of Tor.

I'm not against boycotts, I just find them problematic.

Anonymous Minion #0172 June 08, 2015 1:14 PM  

For years the SJWs have relied on what Ayn Rand called the "Sanction of the Victim."

We victims have withdrawn our sanction and now turn their own tactics against them.

We will win because we assert facts, practice tolerance, and are governed by logic. They will lose because they can only lie and spit.

Blogger Cataline Sergius June 08, 2015 1:16 PM  

Here's something of interest from a bit of knob-slobbery that PNH recently wrote about his boss Tom Doherty on the occasion of his 79th birthday.

As it happens, the Ace (Books) that Tom inherited had some unresolved business problems and some unpaid debts. Tom tells the story of his first World Science Fiction Convention, in Kansas City in 1976. On entering the storied Muehlebach Hotel, he was confronted by a prominent SF author well-known for his, shall we say, forceful manner of speaking. “I’m with the Science Fiction Writers of America,” declared this writer, in a voice that shook potted plants thirty feet away. “And we are going to Audit. Your. Books.”

If you are boggling at the idea of a SFWA President who stands up for his writers rather than arrange sweetheart deals for SFWA officers. The nameless author in question was Dr. Jerry Pournelle,

For some SJWish reason PNH is unable say the guy's name, don't ask me why.

Larry Niven relates a much funnier version of this event, with names included. The debts PNH mentioned were residuals, which ACE never paid to authors. Never. The advance was it, you were never going to see another dime in those days if you sold to ACE. Everybody knew it except Tom Doherty.

It says a lot about the guy that he actually tried to make good on the outstanding residuals.

Anonymous Ridip June 08, 2015 1:17 PM  

I would see the cancer at Tor eradicated. They still publish a handful of authors I love and Macmillan really does need a SciFi imprint, but I'm not sure they need a hyphenless feminist couple, nor a bad whine on their staff and I think it needs to be made painfully clear to those with the authority to clean house, that a house cleaning is in order.

Blogger grendel June 08, 2015 1:30 PM  

Tor should be burned to the ground just based on how bad the last book of WoT was. All their other misdeeds are just gravy.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer June 08, 2015 1:31 PM  

"I'm not against boycotts, I just find them problematic."

I'm not boycotting Tor, I am not spending my money with a merchant who thinks I am a Nazi.

This seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Blogger Blume June 08, 2015 1:34 PM  

But a lot of us buy card, weber, Sanderson and modesitt. All tor authors with huge followings. Card and weber are fairly blue. I think their fans could be enough to sway tor.

Anonymous Roundtine June 08, 2015 1:35 PM  

I don't think we need to do anything, this is moving of its own free will. Some SJWs might decide to personalize their loss, blame it on these few and cut their losses. It's clear this bit of the Tor crew is over the top and they may be responsible for whipping up all the negative media coverage and poisoning the debate. They're a liability for their own side. I'd say if we were in charge, we'd want toxic behaviors reduced, but at this early stage, having mean spirited enemies is a plus.

Blogger Doom June 08, 2015 1:39 PM  

Hmm? Oh. Since you asked...

I am absolutely astounded you ever decided to leave Tor out of it. I am surprised you are just now, and just contemplating, going tit for tat instead of being an immobile target. I like to think of you as intelligent, and willing to get in there. And, often, you are. So I have never understood your tolerance at being targeted by Tor.

Yeah, sure, I might not know all the ins and outs of what is going on. Just what you publish, what others have mentioned, and a few other sources. Don't care. Wouldn't have waited, wouldn't have tied myself up like that. Cut those ropes and burn some bridges. Or keep getting smacked around like a red-headed step child.

I only care as an irritated onlooker. But just as some guy who keeps taking jabs from "his friend(s)", I won't get involved if that's your thing. I don't care, in that sense. Just irks my sensibilities, nothing personal.

Anonymous Emperor of Icecream June 08, 2015 1:44 PM  

Tor should be given a chance to disavow the public statements made by its senior people, often attacking its own authors.

If it doesn't, then yes, boycott.

Anonymous Ridip June 08, 2015 1:44 PM  

I have no problem boycotting Tor, sure it means I'll have to exercise longer time preferences on enjoying Count to Eschaton, as well as the works of Mr. Williamson and a few others. But there is so much out there worth reading that I can wait until Tom, Tor, or Pan - Macmillan come to their senses. When I checked it out, I was shocked how much I was spending with them. Well stop the presses. I'm spending no more until they make it clear they want me and my ilk as customers. Frankly last year my spending was Toe, Baen, Castalia, Roc. I'll have to rectify that this year.

Blogger ScuzzaMan June 08, 2015 1:48 PM  

I think it's good to give Tor the opportunity to denounce the public slanders of their staff. A) for the lulz, and B) just as fair play

They should be given time to repent just like anyone else.

Then we should drop the hammer.

OpenID luagha June 08, 2015 1:54 PM  

While it would be best if Tor Books jettisons the ballast; my personal options for must-reads or must-haves would be to buy from a used book reseller (so it's a copy already-sold and you don't inflate their numbers) then send a personal donation directly to the author.

Anonymous NateM June 08, 2015 2:01 PM  

Going for individuals at Tor and and not for them directly (in light of Tor clearly making their feelings known) is like attacking the VC inside Vietnam but refuses to pursue them in to Laos, China and Cambodia. you'll neutralize a few enemies, but never the entire threat. It might have only been the Haydens, Scalzi etc saying it at first, but they've made it clear they threw all their weight behind stomping down the sad puppies and rabid puppies as a threat to their hegemony in SFF. I see no reason to ignore that they ARE a party to the fight now.

So, why NOT to attack them with everything you have at this point, since they've been lured into the fight. They've made slanderous and libelous statements, call them on it, make them rescind them or pay the consequences.

Anonymous Strange Aeons June 08, 2015 2:04 PM  

Would a boycott of Tor be noticeable, or negligible? I'm fine with it either way, given that they've been corrupted by the SJ cancer, just wondering how much lost business we amount to.

#0017

Anonymous Hammer6Actual June 08, 2015 2:11 PM  

Black Flag.

No mercy, no quarter, to annihilation. They choose the terms, and I'm quite content to prosecute the war under those terms to completion.

Anonymous Huckleberry (#87) -- est. 1977 June 08, 2015 2:11 PM  

Tor Books ‏@torbooks 2h2 hours ago
Happy Monday! We appreciate your comments & would like to remind you that the views of our employees do not reflect those of the publisher.


Because that's worked so well for the Brenden Eichs of the world.

Blogger Tommy Hass June 08, 2015 2:16 PM  

So I'v been reading Moby-Dick (2nd chapter) and I have once more been met with the utter loathsomeness of SJWs.

I binged some informiation about the Lazarus bit in the chapter. (thought it was the one revived by Jesus) Read the following links and tell me if you can recognize the telltale snarky faggotry so common in their writing.

http://celesteh.blogspot.de/2008/08/moby-dick-monday-chapter-2.html

"Alas, I am in a state of shocking internetlessness, so I'm citing no sources here."

D'aww, he said "internetlessness".

""Such dreary streets! blocks of blackness . . . on either hand . . .." Unlit streets in the dark and cold and ice. Perfect! He comes to an open door and to some racism."

Yes, jude a 19th century author by concepts invented by 20th century Bolshevists.

"Gomorrah was an Old Testament city destroyed by fire and brimstone. Lot lived there and was a good guy. Some angels described as travelers came to see him. The townsfolk were a xenophobic bunch and demanded that Lot bring out the strangers so they could know them. Lot offered his two virgin daughters instead, hoping his neighbors would be content to rape his kids."

Do I really have to say anything?

"Ok, so backing up to Gomorrah, you may have noted that the sequence of events in the story makes no sense whatsoever, aside from establishing Lot as one of the worst parents of all time."

Marrying off your daughters (something that was necessary for them to find husbands) is the worst thing a father could do. You heard it first here, folks.

" I've heard two interpretations of the meaning of that story. The most reasonable one is about hospitality. Travel was dangerous in the ancient world and there were no such things as inns. So if somebody strange came to town, rather than treating them as a thief and marauder (which they might actually be) you were supposed to give them a place to sleep without overly interrogating them. God was pissed off because the citizens of Gomorrah wanted to know something about these guys before letting them. Take note: God is against border patrols interrogating travelers."

I want to beat this faggot until his kidneys stop functioning.

"However, alas, sexual otherness and racial otherness have long been popularly tied together in America. In movies, a jazz theme in the soundtrack = easy woman, for example. This expands in concentric circles of sexual impropriety as all alien others stand in for each other. Insufficient whiteness, insufficient masculinity, insufficient heterosexuality are all equivalent, so black = womanly = promiscuous = queer = gay.

So when Melville invokes Gemorrah, he's foreshadowing on several levels. It's a Biblical reference, so it foreshadows a church scene in general. It's queer, so it foreshadows blackness."

This shitstain actually thinks that "queer" meant the same thing in the 19th century as it does today. Priceless.

There is more, considerably more.

http://callmemoby.tumblr.com/post/100850651701/page-19-the-carpet-bag

Anonymous MrGreenMan June 08, 2015 2:16 PM  

But, when the person's job title is "assistant publisher", how does one dissociate that and say she doesn't speak as the publisher? It's not like she's "file clerk" or even "senior programmer".

Anonymous Aeoli Pera June 08, 2015 2:17 PM  

Meanwhile, this list grows by the day: Bullied and Badgered, Pressured and Purged

One of the most recent entries is "… Too many to count … the more commonplace and boringly predictable is is, the more serious it becomes."

Blogger Salt June 08, 2015 2:25 PM  

Happy Monday! We appreciate your comments & would like to remind you that the views of our employees do not reflect those of the publisher.

If that ain't a please stop giving us flack.

Blogger Dm Gray June 08, 2015 2:30 PM  

Don't be so quick to dismiss "progressive" readers.
I'm slogging through Sword of Truth by Terry Goodkind (which starts of great, but later books get bogged down in Objectivist lecturing every few pages)
So say I find that brand of philosophy unsavoury is an understatement, but politics are besides the point when reading.
I enjoy different points of view, and I can appreciate better the values of people that DO adopt such philosophy (which are remarkably similar to my own :P)
I don't disagree that SJW are awful and unlikely to look beyond their echochambers, but "progressive" is a broad term. Don't go throwing the baby out with that nasty soiled bathwater!

I'm glad to see neutral parties wading in to comment (okay, mostly being dragged in my JUST how unreasonable your opposition seems intent on being)
It seems to have drawn out a "employees opinions are their own" nonsense statement from TOR PR, so they know they've fucked up.
I'm hoping reasonable voices can agree to disagree on personal/political matters and get on with the business of publishing and publicising awesome fiction ><

Anonymous MrGreenMan June 08, 2015 2:33 PM  

@Dm Gray

You should read the remarks of a man who had publicly praised her up and down for years, considered her a personal friend, and she just called a neo-nazi and a fascist.

Anonymous Banjo June 08, 2015 2:34 PM  

For some reason, I am reminded of the tune Chicken Reel.

Banjo (VFM #0131)

Anonymous bw June 08, 2015 2:36 PM  

But we don't have to

Story for all Westerners who are subservient to the Corp owned Governments.
The comfortable materialism has trumped true humanity.

The utterances of these individuals appear to indicate that the company supports lies, slander, libel and viciousness as debating and/or promotional tactics.

Of course they do, for the Corp is king, not the "individuals" working for it.

She might be a really wonderful individual, in person, but her facts are dead wrong, bordering on libelous...

Compromising rhetoric.










Blogger Plump Pleasant Plumber June 08, 2015 2:38 PM  

I'm all for a boycott, but I buy my books second hand. I like Weber for example, but that's all I can really do. Lawfare?

Blogger Joshua Dyal June 08, 2015 2:39 PM  

I think I've only bought one Tor title in the last five years; a Brandon Sanderson novel that I couldn't read more than about a third of before giving up in boredom. So, me boycotting Tor is exactly what Peter Grant is talking about: who cares? I'm already not really a customer and haven't been since I stopped reading the Wheel of Time years ago.

However, as a publisher of genres that I do enjoy reading, I'd like to think that I could give Tor a look-see in the future. But I won't until this is addressed. Since by boycott threat is pointless, who can I contact at Tor or McMillan to let them know of my displeasure with the comments of these four specific individuals and the culture that evidently allows them to say what they say publicly? I'm more than happy to "#GamerGate" the crap out of them.

Anonymous Nathan June 08, 2015 2:43 PM  

@Dm Gray,

I don't mind that writers don't agree with me,. Seven billion carbon copies of me would be a real boring world. I do start to get pissed when the ban-hammer at a certain site starts enforcing a conformity of opinion on race, sex, etc., to even erase people of color that didn't agree with the blogger. Or that I, as a potential future writer, must write women as Mary Sue 90 lb. super-waifs. Or that I must write in "non-binary gender," whatever that might mean. Or that readers should ignore me because I'm a white, straight male because of "privilege." Or that to call out the company for any of this is to have my posts disappear down the memory hole r cmpltly dsvwld s frm f rdcl. Or to be called a wrongfan by editors that work for the company. Or that if you find a Puppykicker, they tend to work for or have been published by Tor. I don't care that Tor might be leftist. There are other Three Letter SFF publishers that are, that I buy from on occasion, and that have not provoked an utter shitstorm on a near regular basis. I do, however, return unto Tor the contempt and antipathy that they show anyone who isn't in complete lockstep with their opinions.

Anonymous JRL June 08, 2015 2:50 PM  

I think of the Mozilla/Eich incident. Mozilla's public relations lady essentially apologized to the SJWs for Eich's existence at Mozilla.

I expect Tor to apologize for not doing enough to create a culture that tolerates diversity.

Blogger Nate June 08, 2015 2:53 PM  

I think its probably been a bad day for Gallo.

Blogger Steveo #238 June 08, 2015 2:57 PM  

Acorns, tree. Put them all out, I say.

The libel deserves the deguello... though they may choke on feigned civility in the future, the sjws need some manners school'n. It also ratchets up the cost of their behaviors to include the personal risk where the cheat codes won't work.

Anonymous Paul #348 June 08, 2015 3:14 PM  

"Tor Books‏@torbooks2h2 hours ago

Happy Monday! We appreciate your comments & would like to remind you that the views of our employees do not reflect those of the publisher."

We don't care.

Blogger Jourdan June 08, 2015 3:16 PM  

@Nate

I think its probably been a bad day for Gallo.

No way. That yawning cat picture as a response was AWESOME. How can anyone argue with that?

Blogger Feather Blade June 08, 2015 3:18 PM  

Tor Books ‏@torbooks 2h2 hours ago
Happy Monday! We appreciate your comments & would like to remind you that the views of our employees do not reflect those of the publisher.


Ha! Tor Books might want to remind their employees to show some professionalism, and not talk about work matters outside of the company.

Blogger Cail Corishev June 08, 2015 3:21 PM  

I don't disagree that SJW are awful and unlikely to look beyond their echochambers, but "progressive" is a broad term.

No it's not.

Don't go throwing the baby out with that nasty soiled bathwater!

There's no baby there, just bathwater. With feces.

I'm hoping reasonable voices can agree to disagree on personal/political matters and get on with the business of publishing and publicising awesome fiction

These are either the words of a moderate who incorrectly sees this as a spat between two equally reasonable/unreasonable sides who happen to have different beliefs, or the words of a SJW who hopes to leverage the decency of his enemies by getting them to sue for peace before they realize they're winning.

Either way, we don't care. Go talk to the SJWs who started this war. Get them to surrender unconditionally, then we can talk about reparations for the last 50 years of damage they've done. That sounds reasonable.

Blogger Danby June 08, 2015 3:27 PM  

@dm grey

No. fuck you. Get out of the line of fire, you idiot.

Blogger Calvin Dodge June 08, 2015 3:29 PM  

Today as I was at Barnes and Noble (there to buy the "Weird Al" edition of "Mad" magazine), I thought I'd thank the store for carrying the magazine by buying a book, too. "Shipstar" by Niven and Benford caught my eye, and I would've bought it if I hadn't first asked myself "who's the publisher?"

When I saw the spine of the book, I put it back on the shelf, and searched some more. I'm now the happy owner of "Skin Game", which I've wanted to finish ever since reading the sample in the Hugo packet.

Anonymous Mike M. (#315) June 08, 2015 3:35 PM  

As I recommended to Mr. Wright, he needs to have his agent or attorney contact Macmillan management. Point out that Tor managers are trash-talking one of their Hugo-nominated authors - which will adversely impact sales.

This hits THEIR bottom line. Not to mention Wright's. To say nothing of the libel.

Macmillan needs to clean Tor up, for the sake of their own bottom line. A suit by John Wright might get expensive.

Blogger Alexander June 08, 2015 3:45 PM  

Dm Gray,

Please link to where you have made the same appeal at File 770, Making Light, Whatever, etc. etc. etc.

Regards,
Minion #10

Not that that matters in the big picture - I stand by my position of burning Tor to the ground. But I'd appreciate knowing if you're at least trying to appeal to moderation from both sides.

I have my suspicions on the matter...

Blogger Jack Ward June 08, 2015 3:46 PM  

49. luagha June 08, 2015 1:54 PM

I like the idea of a personal donation directly to the author. I can almost guarantee you would get a nice Thank You email. Say, to a Wright, a Kratman, a Pournelle, etc.

By reseller I'm assuming any old used book seller? Only problem, of course, is when someone like John C. Wright comes out with his latest. Goodness, I wish he, among others, would go full time with Castalia House.

Blogger Dexter June 08, 2015 3:47 PM  

Going for individuals at Tor and and not for them directly (in light of Tor clearly making their feelings known) is like attacking the VC inside Vietnam but refuses to pursue them in to Laos, China and Cambodia.

If only we could have B-52s drop several million tons of high explosives on their heads, as we did in Laos and Cambodia...

Anonymous Athor Pel June 08, 2015 3:49 PM  

I had already decided weeks ago that I would no longer buy books published by Tor.


_____________


"Tor Books‏@torbooks2h2 hours ago

Happy Monday! We appreciate your comments & would like to remind you that the views of our employees do not reflect those of the publisher."



My initial response to this was, "Even if those employees insult large numbers of people that support your business?"

Anonymous A.B. Prosper June 08, 2015 3:54 PM  

Going after Jim Butcher? Talk about fratricide. The man is a Liberal, quite doctrinaire, feminist too.

Despite that that he is a good guy and can still tell a fine story, the Dresden Files are fun .

As far as future purchases, well I don't any SF or Fantasy in the queue but I can be sure till this issue is resolved, none of them are going to be for TOR. From now on till solution, the moniker means put it back or buy it used.

I might grab another Dresden Files later though, my buddies like them and I've enjoyed the half dozen I've read too. I even enjoyed the short lived TV show

Blogger Harsh June 08, 2015 4:03 PM  

I'm hoping reasonable voices can agree to disagree on personal/political matters and get on with the business of publishing and publicising awesome fiction

The time for compromise has long since passed.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer June 08, 2015 4:06 PM  

Not buying books from Tor would be the polite thing to do as well. I can't imagine that they want to trade with a Nazi.

Anonymous Laz June 08, 2015 4:06 PM  

"If only we could have B-52s drop several million tons of high explosives on their heads, as we did in Laos and Cambodia..."

And a lot of good it did. 2 weeks later and the Ho Chi Minh trail was open for business. Carpet bombing doesn't win wars.

Anonymous Curious but not an SJW June 08, 2015 4:13 PM  

We should carpet bomb Macmillan with emails saying we will not buy anything from Tor.

What are the email addresses to use. They cannot know whether we have not been buying from them or not.

Anonymous Viidad (#0156) June 08, 2015 4:29 PM  

@Curious but not an SJW

"They cannot know whether we have not been buying from them or not."

There's no reason to stoop to subterfuge or misrepresentation. I wrote them today and in full honesty let them know that I am a voracious sci-fi reader and have purchased Tor books as recently as just a couple of weeks ago. I also let them know I didn't appreciate being called a "neo-nazi" or a "racist," particularly since my wife is part Native American.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan June 08, 2015 4:30 PM  

Tor should hire Emma the mattress girl porn star, she is obviously a good fiction artist, though per respectable sources a very poor fellator.

Anonymous Kel-Tec PF9 June 08, 2015 4:47 PM  

I'll have to get the few Niven books I don't already have second hand. Aside from that, boycotting Tor is easy. They aren't the only game in town. Just bought ATOB from Castalia House, BTW.

Blogger James Dixon June 08, 2015 4:57 PM  

> I'll have to get the few Niven books I don't already have second hand.

All of my Niven books were published by Del Rey. But that was a number of years ago.

Blogger James Dixon June 08, 2015 5:01 PM  

> ...though per respectable sources a very poor fellator.

Then it sounds like there's absolutely no place for her at Tor.

Anonymous Kel-Tec PF9 June 08, 2015 5:12 PM  

Niven's been with Tor since Ringworld's Children (2004), I still need Shipstar and Bowl of Heaven.

Anonymous Beau June 08, 2015 5:13 PM  

Email sent to MacMillan telling them I will not buy Tor, also informed them of a Tor senior management problem and urged MacMillan to clean house quickly.

Blogger Peter June 08, 2015 6:10 PM  

Hi, Vox. Thanks very much for linking to my post about the Gallo/Tor issue. I appreciate your interest, and the comments of your minions. Good minions! (Tosses expensive puppy chow . . . ) Sorry I didn't comment earlier, but I've been on the road all day and only just found your post.

I'm grateful to all of you who participated in the comments over this post. I'd be very glad if you would please e-mail or write to Tor and McMillan to let them know of your interest, and concern. I want to put them on the spot, force them to respond publicly. If they don't, I think their silence will be all the confirmation we need that my suspicions about Tor are correct, and that it's become the literary version of the Mos Eisley cantina.

I hope this incident will encourage all Puppies, Sad, Rabid or just plain playful, to work together to deal with the situation. If we stand united, I think great things may be achieved.

Anonymous Rocky (VFM #75) June 08, 2015 6:10 PM  

Happy Monday! We appreciate your comments & would like to remind you that the views of our employees do not reflect those of the publisher.

I don't care what they say, the behavior of employees does reflect on their employer, unless corrective action is taken as publicly as the offending action

Blogger VD June 08, 2015 6:15 PM  

Hi, Vox. Thanks very much for linking to my post about the Gallo/Tor issue. I appreciate your interest, and the comments of your minions.

You're quite welcome. It's good to see independents standing up to the big bullies of SF/F.

Blogger SirHamster (#201) June 08, 2015 6:28 PM  

No way. That yawning cat picture as a response was AWESOME. How can anyone argue with that?

Yawning? I thought it was screaming in pain.

Blogger maniacprovost June 08, 2015 6:31 PM  

@dm grey

SJWs are the monsters created by progressives. Now some Progressives should be taken out and shot, like Alinsky, while others are the friend whom you politely ignore when he starts ranting about corporate shills (Eric Flint). However, all progressives, collectively, are responsible for the creation of the modern* SJW horde.

*There have always been some folks who form irrational ideological tribes and attack "others" on a personal, rhetorical level.

Anonymous Culture War Draftee #151 June 08, 2015 6:32 PM  

So does anybody here recall Sean Fodera? It was just last year that he made some mildly critical comments about MRK. The SJWs exploded about the misogyny, the brutal victimization, blah, blah, blah. Long story short, Fodera, a McMillan employee made a very public apology, presumably on orders. We'll see if history repeats itself.

I am surprised at how little Tor fiction I've read. Goodreads doesn't let you sort by publisher, so I'm not entirely sure, but it looks like my Tor exposure is limited to Soldier of the Mist, the Dying Earth omnibus, Other Kingdoms, and Three Body Problem. I guess they won't miss me too much, but I'm clearly not going to miss them greatly.

Anonymous Curious but not an SJW June 08, 2015 6:34 PM  

I have done a quick scan of the Macmillan and Tor web sites, and cannot readily find the best email address to use to communicate my displeasure.

Can anyone suggest the correct email address?

Anonymous Scintan June 08, 2015 6:37 PM  

Back in April, Larry Correia and I, among others, encouraged everyone to leave Tor Books out of it. We made it clear that our problems were with certain individuals at Tor, not the organization itself. But as Peter Grant points out, Irene Gallo's comments, to say nothing of Moshe Feder's and John Scalzi's (now that the organization has bet its future on him, Scalzi is relevant in this regard), appear to indicate that we were wrong and our problem is with the organization as it is presently comprised after all.

When the leaders of a company are your enemy, the company is your enemy. It is only when those leaders are removed or battered into honest submission that peace can be an option.

That's as true of TOR as it is of Starbucks, Mozilla and the NYT.

Anonymous Bz June 08, 2015 7:10 PM  

"would like to remind you that the views of our employees do not reflect those of the publisher"

Well, those are the public views of senior management, not just random employees. So I think they actually should be taken as reflecting the views of Tor.

Blogger VFM 188* June 08, 2015 7:26 PM  

Burn it down. Tor delenda est.

Blogger Shibes Meadow June 08, 2015 7:33 PM  

Actually, carpet-bombing does work

Blogger Harsh June 08, 2015 7:42 PM  

Hi, Vox. Thanks very much for linking to my post about the Gallo/Tor issue. I appreciate your interest, and the comments of your minions. Good minions! (Tosses expensive puppy chow . . . ) Sorry I didn't comment earlier, but I've been on the road all day and only just found your post.

Peter, I'm embarrassed to admit that I'm not familiar with your work, but as you've shown courage enough to take a stand in this fight, I've just purchased 'Take the Star Road'. Keep up the good work!

Anonymous jamesrm36 June 08, 2015 7:42 PM  

Wait, her well-thoughtout, reasoned response to all of this was a picture of her cat???

Damn. She actually IS a crazy old cat-lady...

Blogger Harsh June 08, 2015 7:52 PM  

Wait, her well-thoughtout, reasoned response to all of this was a picture of her cat???

I've said it before and I'll say it again, these people are self-parodying.

Blogger Dexter June 08, 2015 7:54 PM  

Tor Books ‏@torbooks 2h2 hours ago
Happy Monday! We appreciate your comments & would like to remind you that the views of our employees do not reflect those of the publisher.


So yeah, I'm thinking that if one of their employees had said anything about the "bad-to-reprehensible" works of their black or gay authors, they'd be reminding us that "these people are no longer our employees" not just that "the views of our employees do not reflect our views".

Anonymous Laz June 08, 2015 7:57 PM  

@ Shibes Meadow: That bombing was part of the overall offensive and was just the straw that broke the camel's back. Now give us an example of a war won by bombing alone.

Blogger tweell June 08, 2015 8:18 PM  

For myself, I will no longer purchase the Tor books that I normally would - Weber and Modesitt in particular. Instead, I've purchased Peter Grant's Laredo books. I'll wait for the others to show at Bookman's used books, where I can avoid providing Tor with any income.

Tor, you've just lost ~$150 a year (I like hardbound books). Unnoticeable, surely, but how many more will you lose?

Blogger Montrose June 08, 2015 8:34 PM  

If I had to pick, going forward, exclusively between Castalia or Tor, Tor would not win. And it's a shame - they have done so much for the genre in the past. And Castalia does not publish hardcover books (right?) - which literally forced me to get an e-reader. But I still prefer the real deal.
I spend about $200 or more a year on books.

Blogger Harsh June 08, 2015 8:37 PM  

Tor, you've just lost ~$150 a year (I like hardbound books). Unnoticeable, surely, but how many more will you lose?

Just did a quick check of my Quicken account for last year -- $739 spent on books. Exactly $0 will go towards Tor books in the foreseeable future.

Blogger Henry Smith June 08, 2015 8:48 PM  

Just bought a Tor book a couple of weeks ago. It was the only John Wright paperback on the shelf. That will be the last Tor book I buy. Henceforth I'll buy John's books from Castalia or at the used bookstore.

Blogger SirHamster (#201) June 08, 2015 9:01 PM  

And Castalia does not publish hardcover books (right?)

They're slowly adding that option to some of their works. The wonders of on demand printing.

Awake in the Night Land in hardcover.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza June 08, 2015 9:02 PM  

SJW's have two major handicaps; they always LIE and they dont want us or say Vox, Larry, Wright, and others to HAVE ANYTHING.

Let threats continue, make a note, make them public.

Blogger Henry Smith June 08, 2015 9:20 PM  

Two people were FIRED for privately making "forking" and "dongle" jokes at a Python conference. I don't expect Gallo to resign. She has no honor, and thinks she's above it all. I want her FIRED. Anything less? Tor delenda est.

Anonymous Godfrey June 08, 2015 9:31 PM  

There is no greater joy in life than frustrating the plans of the wicked and arrogant.

Anonymous The other robot June 08, 2015 9:52 PM  

Well, I sent an email to torpublicity@tor.com saying that because they have not repudiated the statements so it seems like their official position. That should get their attention!

Blogger Plump Pleasant Plumber June 08, 2015 10:14 PM  

Gents, there has to be some bad publicity. A few emails are just piss in in the wind. Think about it.

Blogger Peter June 08, 2015 10:28 PM  

I've written an open letter to Tom Doherty concerning his article on Tor.com today concerning this crisis. You'll find it on my blog:

http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2015/06/an-open-letter-to-tom-doherty-of-tor.html

I hope it expresses the respect he deserves as an individual, even if that doesn't extend (at present) to Tor.

Blogger Cedar June 08, 2015 11:12 PM  

Hi Minions (Since I haven't commented before I don't want to commit a faux pas, is minions right?), Peter asked me to step on over and see the comments. I'd seen that you all were coming to my blog today, hopefully you got some useful information. Vox, thanks for the links. I appreciate it, it helps to know I'm not shouting in the wind.

Blogger maniacprovost June 09, 2015 12:46 AM  

Hi Cedar. Only a small percentage of us are Minions. The folks here aren't the type who like to form a Group and refer to themselves with a cutesy name like "Trufans." There are some loosely defined constituencies amongst the mob of individuals.

Blogger automatthew June 09, 2015 12:49 AM  

"The folks here aren't the type who like to form a Group and refer to themselves with a cutesy name"

Except for the ones who possess an operative sense of humor.

Blogger automatthew June 09, 2015 12:52 AM  

Buster! Can't you recognize an opportunity to be funny? Don't you think it would be a useful item to add to your intellectual toolkit to be
capable of saying, when a ton of wet steaming funny lands on
your head, "My goodness, this appears to be funny?"

Blogger VD June 09, 2015 5:13 AM  

Gents, there has to be some bad publicity. A few emails are just piss in in the wind. Think about it.

Dear Plump Pleasant Plumber,

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Love,
GamerGate

Blogger VFM 188* June 09, 2015 7:05 AM  

Vile minion here. Faceless too. Have number. Member of cutesy name group. Not think for self. Follow Overlord of Evil League of Evil. Think number funny. Recognize number useful in other ways too. Mainly funny though.

Blogger Cedar June 09, 2015 8:27 AM  

"the mob of individuals."

Oh, I recognize that. Relates to herding cats :) Since I lovingly call my children my minions, I can clearly see the funny in it. Also, I belong to a couple of groups with cutesy names myself, although 'trufan' is emphatically not one of them.

Anonymous Shut up rabbit June 09, 2015 12:55 PM  

The comments on the Tor.com post are basically unrepentant SJWs defending her while Mr. Doherty is relying on the politeness of the offended party to avoid having to take any responsibility.

I say virus bomb the whole clusterfuck from orbit - its the only way to be sure!

Polite mail asking for firing sent to: tom.doherty@tor.com

Anonymous Mike June 09, 2015 10:35 PM  

Tor and Tom Doherty seem to be caught in the middle of this one.

On one hand, there's the Sad Puppy and Rabid Puppy folks calling for heads to roll, specifically those of Gallo and the Nielsen Haydens. Failing that, for Tor itself to fall.

On the other, the Socialist Just-Us Worriers and Perpetually Outraged Crybabies are now saying that Tor and / or Doherty tossed Gallo under the bus.

Gawker: America's Largest Sci-Fi Publisher Gives in to Reactionary "Sad Puppies"

I count myself as part of the former group. If I'm not at Sasquan this year, I'm planning on being at MidAmericon II.

Personally, I'd prefer that Gallo and the Nielsen Haydens get the boot from Tor, but I'm comfortable getting Tor books from the used bookstore if that doesn't happen.

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