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Tuesday, June 30, 2015

They are the SAME war

David Brooks manages to completely miss the point in the process of recommending that conservatives simply wave a white flag in the cultural war and dedicate themselves to performing good works deemed socially acceptable:
Put aside a culture war that has alienated large parts of three generations from any consideration of religion or belief. Put aside an effort that has been a communications disaster, reducing a rich, complex and beautiful faith into a public obsession with sex. Put aside a culture war that, at least over the near term, you are destined to lose.

Consider a different culture war, one just as central to your faith and far more powerful in its persuasive witness.

We live in a society plagued by formlessness and radical flux, in which bonds, social structures and commitments are strained and frayed. Millions of kids live in stressed and fluid living arrangements. Many communities have suffered a loss of social capital. Many young people grow up in a sexual and social environment rendered barbaric because there are no common norms. Many adults hunger for meaning and goodness, but lack a spiritual vocabulary to think things through.

Social conservatives could be the people who help reweave the sinews of society. They already subscribe to a faith built on selfless love. They can serve as examples of commitment. They are equipped with a vocabulary to distinguish right from wrong, what dignifies and what demeans. They already, but in private, tithe to the poor and nurture the lonely.

The defining face of social conservatism could be this: Those are the people who go into underprivileged areas and form organizations to help nurture stable families. Those are the people who build community institutions in places where they are sparse. Those are the people who can help us think about how economic joblessness and spiritual poverty reinforce each other. Those are the people who converse with us about the transcendent in everyday life.

This culture war is more Albert Schweitzer and Dorothy Day than Jerry Falwell and Franklin Graham; more Salvation Army than Moral Majority. It’s doing purposefully in public what social conservatives already do in private.

I don’t expect social conservatives to change their positions on sex, and of course fights about the definition of marriage are meant as efforts to reweave society. But the sexual revolution will not be undone anytime soon. The more practical struggle is to repair a society rendered atomized, unforgiving and inhospitable. Social conservatives are well equipped to repair this fabric, and to serve as messengers of love, dignity, commitment, communion and grace.
As Jartstar commented, Brooks wants Christians to clean up the social wreckage being caused by people who reject Christianity, but neither prevent them from causing more damage nor even teach them how to stop harming themselves and others.

Now, granted, there is a certain ironic propriety to telling people who already well accustomed to losing battles to engage in another equally hopeless one. But the fact is that conservatives didn't have to lose those battles, they simply chose not to fight them. We could end the gay marriage battle by the end of the week if we wanted; ISIS has demonstrated that it requires little more than rooftops and gravity. That's simply not how we prefer to operate.

Regardless, we have options that range from winning the cultural war through extreme barbarism on the one side to abject surrender on the other. And that is why everyone, even our short-sighted opponents, should hope that the civilized cultural warriors win, because if they don't, history strongly suggests that the uncivilized cultural warriors will. The pendulum always swings back, and the further it swings one way, the harder it swings back on its return.

David Brooks fails to understand that the problems he laments can only be fixed by rejecting the ruling left-liberalism he supports and embracing a conservative philosophical outlook. But in any case, the answer is simple: no.

Rod Dreher's response is more genteel, as you might expect, but similar:
 I don’t believe my friend David understands the inseparable connection between Christian sexual morality and the familial and social instability David rightly decries. Family and social breakdown is inextricably linked to the abandonment of Christian sexual ideals — specifically, the idea that sexual passion should be limited to expression within the bounds of marriage. Chastity — which is not “no sex,” but rather the right ordering of the God-given sexual instinct — is a Christian virtue. It is not the most important Christian virtue, but it is not one that can be discarded, either.

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218 Comments:

1 – 200 of 218 Newer› Newest»
Blogger James Dixon June 30, 2015 12:04 PM  

The one thing you can be certain of is that if David Brooks said it, it's not in our best interests.

Anonymous MrGreenMan June 30, 2015 12:09 PM  

Mr. Brooks has an odd idea of how we should deal with those whose hearts God has hardened and who God calls the children of Satan.

There's a reason we speak of the Salvation Army as having lost their way.

Anonymous Soga June 30, 2015 12:12 PM  

Shill detected: "Put aside an effort that has been a communications disaster, reducing a rich, complex and beautiful faith into a public obsession with sex."
- David Brooks

Heh. Public obsession with sex? Just exactly who is it that has pride parades celebrating how they have sex? And who is it that demands we must not only tolerate public displays of statistically deviating sexual behavior, but enthusiastically endorse it?

Ummmmmmmm.... pretty sure that's not a good description of people practicing a "rich, complex, and beautiful faith."

If Brooks reads this: shut up, shill.

Anonymous 0007 June 30, 2015 12:13 PM  

hooo boy are you in trouble again. You just pointed out how the rop(religionofpeace) fixes its homosexual problems. That will make you a homo-hater(again) in the eyes of their(homosexual's) beloved left-wing supporters.

Blogger darkdoc June 30, 2015 12:14 PM  

The big lesson of Sodom and Gomorrah is that a homosexual (sodomite) culture has no viable way to survive. It will destroy itself, or will be destroyed from outside. But saving it? I know of no examples.

Still, if you wish to distort and apply your own weak and judgement-free form of Christianity, then you can plead almost anything. And God will likely ignore your pleas.

Anonymous The Sharp Crease In Obama's Pants June 30, 2015 12:15 PM  

Brooks wants Christians to be janitors for his globalist welfare/warfare state masters, but at the same time whipping boys for the same masters. Yes, people, he really is that stupid. And I ought to know, he still has a boy-crush on me!

Blogger hank.jim June 30, 2015 12:18 PM  

"But the sexual revolution will not be undone anytime soon."

We are at an impasse and he doesn't see it. While I can see why we shouldn't surrender, we are asked to do that nonetheless. David Brooks is directly asking us to be complicit, which I refuse to do.

Liberals bring the war to us. They are still persecuting the ones that refuse to serve the gay agenda. Until this stops, how can anyone pick up the pieces of a decaying society.

Blogger Eric Mueller June 30, 2015 12:20 PM  

I've never understood why conservatives would even consider taking advice from people who want them to fail.

Anonymous Donn #0114 June 30, 2015 12:20 PM  

Sounds like White Man's Burden to me.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 30, 2015 12:21 PM  

Social conservatives could be the people who help reweave the sinews of society.

Brooks is the sort of guy who thinks putting more holes in the bottom of the boat will help the water drain out.

Yeah, reweaving the sinews of society... a few years ago I'd have been up for that, but right now it seems like an awful lot of work. I'd rather go rip a few more sinews apart. That sounds a lot more fun. Anyone who's done any remodeling knows you have to finish the demolition first.

Anonymous Stilicho #0066 June 30, 2015 12:23 PM  

Tldr: Jew to Christians, stop acting like you are Christians, it's interfering with my desire to fundamentally change your country.

Blogger ScuzzaMan June 30, 2015 12:25 PM  

For all his vaunted intellect and his patronizing advice to conservatives, Brooks somehow manages to exemplify every negative stereotype that could possibly apply to him.

He's a faithless ally, cowardly friend, stultifyingly stupid intellectual wannabe, educated fool, pampered and privileged white male, and treacherous Jew.

Way to be, Dave. Way to be.

Blogger JartStar June 30, 2015 12:26 PM  

I've never understood why conservatives would even consider taking advice from people who want them to fail.

You are most certainly not a Noble Sir! We must always be magnanimous in both victory in defeat, honorable in all battles no matter the cost, and step aside graciously and quietly when bested in combat whether it was fair or foul.

Now, excuse me while I go fetch Milady's slippers for her.

Blogger macengr June 30, 2015 12:27 PM  

Rod Dreher reflects on the same column at AmCon -
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/david-brooks-on-the-next-culture-war/

Blogger Kaijubushi June 30, 2015 12:28 PM  

David Brooks is an asshat.

Blogger August June 30, 2015 12:30 PM  

Brooks doesn't understand he's what he is suggesting is illegal. Not necessarily explicitly, but once you are engaged in a project, there are ten thousand little things that you find you have to do a particular way, and the sum of them lead up to the fact that you can't build a community the way he imagines we could.

Of course, few, once invested, want to be honest with themselves and admit this is the case. If you do, and you come from this space, you eventually find yourself alone, because your erstwhile brothers find their illusions more important than your friendship.

Blogger Sean June 30, 2015 12:30 PM  

My head just exploded. He wants Christians to do what Christians do, but just don't do it all Christiany like?

Blogger Jakeithus June 30, 2015 12:32 PM  

What Mr. Brooks doesnt understand (or understands and fails to mention, depending on what you think of his motivation) is that TPTB, and the people who just do what they're told by TPTB, won't just allow Christians the freedom to positively influence society in the way Brooks suggests, as long as they still refuse to bend the knee to Caesar and Big Gay. Just shutting up won't be enough in the long run, and it's likely that Brooks knows it. Once the battle is stopped, it will be exponentially harder to ever start it up again. The left knows this, which is why you'll probably see a lot more of these types of articles in the near future as they use their lackeys to try and deliver a knockout blow.

Blogger ScuzzaMan June 30, 2015 12:34 PM  

Reasons to do nothing; #9,734,812

Blogger Jack Aubrey June 30, 2015 12:35 PM  

Social conservatives ... are equipped with a vocabulary to distinguish right from wrong, what dignifies and what demeans.

As long as we don't try to use that vocabulary, or teach it to someone who hasn't learned it yet.

Blogger Elocutioner0226 June 30, 2015 12:36 PM  

"No, Christian, that is not the proper way to lick boots" says the secular NYC Jew. Pass.

Anonymous WillBest June 30, 2015 12:37 PM  

Many if not most Christians don't understand that it is not love to enable sin.

---

"Sexual revolution won't be undone any time soon"

Really? In CA, NY and other liberal states they are well on the path of no heterosexual sex before marriage.

Anonymous clk June 30, 2015 12:41 PM  

"I've never understood why conservatives would even consider taking advice from people who want them to fail."

You mean like from Jesus ?

“‘If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.’ or

'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' or

"If you just love those who love you, what credit is that to you?..."

Blogger James Dixon June 30, 2015 12:45 PM  

> David Brooks is an asshat.

Oh, it's far worse that that. He's a traitor infiltrating the enemy (Christian) side.

Blogger Drew June 30, 2015 12:46 PM  

Vox, you are both wrong. The ONLY thing that will change this nation, and this world, is the gospel of Jesus Christ. Mere social activism will not solve the issue as you have noted. But, throwing others off roof tops will not solve the issue either. As you said, teaching them the gospel, to love their neighbors, will get people to stop harming themselves and others.

We would be cleaning up the mess that non-Christians have created. It does seem like a battle already lost. But, nothing can overcome the kingdom of God. Nothing can stop its advancement.

The range of options that you described, extreme barbarism and abject surrender, the scale was rejected by Jesus. He neither took barbaric actions against those attacking him nor surrendered his ground by submitting himself to the world. He succumbed to their barbarianism for a greater cause. He could have called leagues of angels to save him from that barbarianism. Yet, for the joy that was set before him, and in complete obedience to the Father, he endured the cross. The meek shall inherit the earth.

Blogger James Dixon June 30, 2015 12:47 PM  

> You mean like from Jesus ?

How did Jesus want us to fail?

Blogger James Dixon June 30, 2015 12:48 PM  

> He succumbed to their barbarianism for a greater cause. He could have called leagues of angels to save him from that barbarianism. Yet, for the joy that was set before him, and in complete obedience to the Father, he endured the cross. The meek shall inherit the earth.

Yes, he did. Let us know when you plan to follow his example. Until then quit telling us we should. We're not God in the flesh. We're fallen human beings.

Anonymous Michael Maier June 30, 2015 12:49 PM  

Oh good... I hadn't read enough stoopid today.

Blogger Salt June 30, 2015 12:50 PM  

We live in a society plagued by formlessness and radical flux, in which bonds, social structures and commitments are strained and frayed. ... But [it] will not be undone anytime soon

So let's not even begin till... when Mr. Brooks? When society has been so ripped apart it's not even recognizable? You're an ostrich, Mr. Brooks. How's the view?

Blogger Joshua_D June 30, 2015 12:51 PM  

But the sexual revolution will not be undone anytime soon.

Keep telling yourself that, David. And one more thing, F#$k you.

Anonymous MrGreenMan June 30, 2015 12:54 PM  

@Drew

Enumerating the options does not mean endorsing those options. Do you listen to Medved? Saying something is possible doesn't mean you think that thing should happen. Vox Day did not advocate throwing gay people off roofs. You are not tall enough for this ride if you think he did.

Anonymous ZhukovG June 30, 2015 12:55 PM  

So have we finally reached the point where one must choose between being a good Citizen or being a good Christian?

Even though I am Roman Catholic, I like to look at what the Southern Baptist Convention does as a barometer for the level of potential Christian resistance to Secular Progressivism in the US.

Blogger Beefy Levinson June 30, 2015 12:55 PM  

My bishop said that while he's disappointed by the Court's ruling, the Catholic community still has a lot of work to do in other areas such as racism, the broken immigration system, and the economic gap between rich and poor.

The older I get, the more grateful to God I become that I was dismissed from the seminary.

Anonymous Good Dog Bad Butt June 30, 2015 12:56 PM  

He's brilliant! I've taken the same approach with my puppy. Rather than train him to poop outside, which will just involve me in a doggie relations battle I'm sure to lose, I have just dedicated myself to spending all of my time cleaning the floors.

Blogger Bateful Higot June 30, 2015 12:58 PM  

David Brooks is a classic squishy moderate, and an ungrateful man at that. The kind that asks for help when facing a seemingly impossible dilemma, then complains about the manner in which it is being resolved. Moreover, it's not enough to complain, he must detail the exact manner in which he wants to problem resolved, as though his constraints aren't what made the dilemma impossible in the first place. And when things degrade, it's all the more evidence that his prescriptions were not followed with sufficient enthusiasm.

He can't handle the truth.

Blogger Rabbi B June 30, 2015 1:00 PM  

"But the fact is that conservatives didn't have to lose those battles, they simply chose not to fight them."

No doubt. Here is what they fail so miserably to understand:

That our ways stand in so much opposition to the ways of those causing the social wreckage, that they (i.e. SJWs et al, our enemies) see in our VERY EXISTENCE an inherent reproach and a constant condemnation of their evil and destructive ways Therefore, just our mere existence is a thorn in their eye. That they are our born opponents and only desirous of our ruin - nothing more, nothing less. Our ways, quiet and unobtrusive as they may be, infuriate them simply because they are so much opposed to their own.

However, their position, which is so diametrically opposed to our own, is shaken and refuted by the very life they lead. They simply cannot recognize the clarity of truth in our position, because our position shows their conduct to be wrong. So, they must constantly work to reconcile and conform the truth (i.e. always lie) to their own behavior, since it is not their will or intention to ever reconcile their ways and way of life to what is true and what is right.

In other words, they are corrupted by the lawlessness of their own actions. Therefore, they can't help but become our IMPLACABLE foes, not so much because of the differences in practical conduct, but because of the basic differences in the philosophies of life motivating the conduct of each, and because of the attitude which we must maintain toward all the views and so-called principles of those on the left i.e. our enemies.

The mere fact that we pay allegiance to the truth and to all that is good and right would not disturb them, but they feel that we are standing in their way, because they see in our example and words a constant condemnation of their own way of life. Therefore, they are only too glad to destroy, not only our way of life, but eventually our very lives someday.

Which should answer to Mr. Brooks (and people like him) and his untenable and asinine position, a position which only serves to accelerate and concede defeat to people already bent on destroying us.

The moderates should be hanged for treason and for providing aid and comfort to the enemy.

Blogger Tank June 30, 2015 1:00 PM  

Everything is gamergate.

Everything.

Anonymous Soga June 30, 2015 1:02 PM  

Bateful Higot: So basically, the conservative version of "we didn't spend enough, MUST SPEND MORE!" Keynesian economists?

"Didn't take it up the ass from leftists hard enough; need to take it HARDER!"

Blogger Tommy Hass June 30, 2015 1:02 PM  

"We could end the gay marriage battle by the end of the week if we wanted; ISIS has demonstrated that it requires little more than rooftops and gravity. That's simply not how we prefer to operate."

Was Christendom always less barbarous than the Ummah, or is that a recent development? And please, try to be unbiased.

I seem to remember that medieval Christianity had breaking on the wheel for some criminals. It wasn't always a quick death. And homos were not looked upon favorably.

Blogger VD June 30, 2015 1:04 PM  

Was Christendom always less barbarous than the Ummah, or is that a recent development?

It was always more structured and generally egalitarian. But in terms of killing enemies, they were historically much more broadly equal than they are now. The Ummah has never accepted the Clausewitzian trinity, which is the primary difference. It's not really a religious difference, much more a cultural one.

Blogger Stephen Ward June 30, 2015 1:06 PM  

" He succumbed to their barbarianism for a greater cause."

bullshit. Christ willingly suffered a tactical defeat in a single battle so that He could win the war... and crush the serpent's head.

Anonymous Brother Thomas June 30, 2015 1:06 PM  

Modern "culture" is a contrivance... a construct... of the wealthy elites. It's a means to and end. The end being depopulation.

Blogger Bateful Higot June 30, 2015 1:07 PM  

@Soga

Yes. And "this isn't the RIGHT KIND of Communism," too. There are countless examples, the only commonality is that they're usually uttered by con men.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer June 30, 2015 1:09 PM  

There a lot of problems with that advice. One of which is that performing good works is not going to change any SJWs minds.

One of the reasons that Christian missions are not known to the public is because the MSM usually has little desire to publicize them. In fact, most of Hollywood produces anti-Christian propaganda. And no matter how much good work is done, they will always be able to find some Christian that has done something wrong and use them to tar all Christians.

Finally, most SJWs have no problem with Christians doing good works (though some atheists have gone over the bend on this) as long as they restrict themselves to good works and don't speak up about cultural and moral matters. When that happens they denounce the Christian for being judgmental and seek to drive them out of the public square, just as is happening right now.

Brooks would probably argue (along with a lot of Christians) that the good works would influence the moderates, but as Vox and others have pointed out, the mainstream Christian denominations that went down that road are losing congregates left and right.

So when did Christians exercise political power enough to influence the state of affairs in this country? When there were strong leaders who were unafraid to stand against the world and proclaim the Gospel. Now we mostly have so called ministers proclaiming the "prosperity gospel" and working to give as little offense as possible.

Blogger Bateful Higot June 30, 2015 1:13 PM  

"prosperity gospel"

Heresy if there ever was any.

Blogger Drew June 30, 2015 1:15 PM  

@MrGreenMan " Vox Day did not advocate throwing gay people off roofs. You are not tall enough for this ride if you think he did."

I don't believe Vox is advocating throwing people off roofs. However, it is not a good solution.

Blogger darkdoc June 30, 2015 1:16 PM  

From the Journal of Unintended Consequences.

Most women outlive their husbands.

Grandma, on her deathbed, can now legally marry her grandaughter, thus inheriting all the estate, retirement (pension, military, social security) funds transfer to the surviving spouse, and the IRS can say, "Bye, Bye" to inheritance taxes. Rinse and repeat.

If it is Grandma and grandaughter, or Grandpa and grandson, there can be no legal problems with claims of incest.

So David, is this a good place to start?

Blogger Drew June 30, 2015 1:16 PM  

@James "Yes, he did. Let us know when you plan to follow his example. Until then quit telling us we should. We're not God in the flesh. We're fallen human beings."

If you are a Christian Christ has already called you to carry your own cross and follow him.

Anonymous BGS June 30, 2015 1:17 PM  

There is one positive thing. I took a look at the story cited before I ate lunch and decided to put a comment on it after lunch and the comment section is now gone. I guess they didn't fit the narrative.

Anonymous Bz June 30, 2015 1:17 PM  

Brooks suggests that we should lead the horse to water and tirelessly work to make it drink.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan June 30, 2015 1:17 PM  

Has to suck to be a politically and socially moderate Jew as you see America slide into barbarism. Bye bye middle class security hello constant conflict. Jim Kuntsler writes in the same vein as Brooks

Blogger Drew June 30, 2015 1:19 PM  

@Stephen "bullshit. Christ willingly suffered a tactical defeat in a single battle so that He could win the war... and crush the serpent's head."

Tactical defeat eh? Col. 2:13-14 has Christ crushing the serpents head in his cross and resurrection.

Anonymous Dirtnapninja June 30, 2015 1:20 PM  

Modern conservatism is utterly bankrupt. It cannot win because the instincts of conservatives are to preserve to established institutions. But these institutions are all utterly corrupt and work against the very things conservatives value. look at the fools who defend corporations and global markets on one hand, and bemoan the growth of decadence and social madness on the other. Morons! The deviants are winning because they got the corporations on board! Gluttony and hedonism are good for sales. Self denial and thriftyness are not. Yet conservatives instinctively defend the corporatocracy that is helping to undermine the things they love.

So we don't have real traditionalism, we have a kind of vichy conservatism, a broken administrator of conquered lands that collaborates with its oppressors in the hopes of keeping something small for itself. And what makes it worse is that many conservatives already half agree with the left. You cannot show the moral courage courage to defend ideals you only half believe.

How can we be conservatives when there is nothing left to conserve? Only when you realise the old culture is DEAD, that what has replaced it is intrinsically opposed to everything we value can we properly begin to understand what must be done. Conservatives must shed their misplaced affections and allegiances and become revolutionaries.

Anonymous Bz June 30, 2015 1:22 PM  

There are enough Christians suffering that you can start by performing your good works for them and leave the enemies for some other day; perhaps far in the future, perhaps never. This seems like common sense.

Anonymous kfg June 30, 2015 1:23 PM  

" The end being depopulation."

No, that too is a construct. The end is a rigid, controlled culture which operates much as a social insect colony. You'll find it modelled in Brave New World.

Anonymous BGS June 30, 2015 1:24 PM  

What he basically said was clean up after littering latinos but don't say anything to them about their littering.

Anonymous Bz June 30, 2015 1:27 PM  

Brooks is rather fighting your urge to halt the slide than the slide itself.

"C'mon, you're already this far down the slope. Whoah look out, that was another yard. But there's no use trying to regain it. Better focus on sliding a bit slower ... Hey, maybe we can even halt the slide, mostly. But we can never ever climb back up, buddy. You know that, don't you?"

Blogger Rabbi B June 30, 2015 1:29 PM  

24. Drew June 30, 2015 12:46 PM

"Vox, you are both wrong." etc. , etc.

@Drew

Methinks you need to read the OP a couple of more times for comprehension.

Blogger Sean June 30, 2015 1:32 PM  

"I don't believe Vox is advocating throwing people off roofs. However, it is not a good solution."

Filed under "Duh"

Blogger Danby June 30, 2015 1:36 PM  

I can't believe that Vox is not advocating throwing gays from roofs.

Mr. Brooks,
I have a few suggestions about how Jews can stop committing so many PR blunders.Because really, at this point it looks like Jews are just an inbred tribe using their in-group signalling and control of media and banking to destroy their host cultures.

Anonymous kfg June 30, 2015 1:40 PM  

"The deviants are winning because they got the corporations on board!"

The corporations took the deviants on board because they are useful idiots.

Blogger Rabbi B June 30, 2015 1:47 PM  

Moderates are concerned, or obsessed rather, with image and how they look to the other side. How the other side perceives them and their actions is of paramount concern for some inexplicable reason. Which is to say, they only care about themselves at the end of the day.

They think that being perceived as 'above it all' will garner them the respect and admiration that hey seem to crave. Moderates are narcissists at heart.

Neville probably couldn't wait to declare peace in our time to an adoring and admiring crowd. That turned out well.

Anonymous Alexander, #10 June 30, 2015 1:47 PM  

Q: Why does ISIS only throw homosexual men from rooftops?

A: The women can't get past - let alone on top of - the glass ceiling.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan June 30, 2015 1:48 PM  

But can the BDS movement be stopped? David sounds as if he doesn't get outside of his Jew bubble very often, but if he did and wrote about it it would follow the old script "there be monsters." this establishment is bankrupt in more ways than one

Blogger Drew June 30, 2015 1:49 PM  

@Rabbi B "Methinks you need to read the OP a couple of more times for comprehension."

No, I think I understand it clearly.
Brooks: "Stand down on the war on culture."
Vox: "Stand up and fight!"
Jesus: "Stand firm and obey God."

Quite simple actually.

Blogger luagha June 30, 2015 1:51 PM  

I seem to recall something about 'Go and sin no more," that David Brooks is leaving out when he instructs on the duty of Christians.

Blogger Rabbi B June 30, 2015 1:53 PM  

"No, I think I understand it clearly."

OK. You declared Vox to be wrong. What was he wrong about? Why was he wrong?

"The ONLY thing that will change this nation, and this world, is the gospel of Jesus Christ."

This and similar statements is not an argument that demonstrates Vox's position to be wrong. Do you have any real arguments that do?

Blogger luagha June 30, 2015 1:53 PM  

>I can't believe that Vox is not advocating throwing gays from roofs.<

Around here the gays might have Glocks in 9mm. Get shot with those enough times and they might lodge under the skin and give you a nasty infection.

Anonymous No Use for a Username June 30, 2015 1:54 PM  

Drew,

Christendom was real and just and good. It was brought about by Christian action. Your answer that only the gospel of Jesus Christ will change the nation is wicked. It is wicked because it cloaks a sniveling refusal to act within a superficially unassailable position that reeks of "Holier-than-Though" preening.

What happens when we are confronted with people who will not be moved by the gospel and continue to wage war against us? Christendom used to preserve the meek from a poisonous culture. How many souls have been lost in modern times because the meek among us were poisoned by Satan and his minions by people Christians refused to stop?

Christendom used to provide a bulwark against souls going astray. It was lost when the Christian Warriors became "prayer warriors" and refused to engage those that wanted to destroy Christendom by any means necessary with anything beyond talk.

Vox is absolutely correct. Civilizations, to endure, must be willing to both die and kill for it. Perhaps this is not the time to begin slitting throats, but to dismiss that there may be a time for such out of hand is to ensure Christian civilization never again rises anywhere. History bears this out in both secular and religious realms.

The sooner we start to act in real terms (always praying, to be sure) in a real, physical level, the less of a chance we'll need to resort to the uncivilized culture warriors.

But one thing is certain, better letting loose the uncivilized culture warriors than losing our children and grandchildren for generations to Satan.

Anonymous Jourdan June 30, 2015 1:56 PM  

Please note that Dreher has accepted a gig to write for Time.

If you think you are right-wing and/or conservative and you're finding something written in the Carlos Slim Times or what's left of Time magazine to be helpful, you may not realize this friend, but you've defected to the enemy.

Blogger Drew June 30, 2015 1:59 PM  

@Rabbi B "This and similar statements is not an argument that demonstrates Vox's position to be wrong. Do you have any real arguments that do?"

Vox is wrong when he says to Christians, "David Brooks fails to understand that the problems he laments can only be fixed by rejecting the ruling left-liberalism he supports and embracing a conservative philosophical outlook."

Christians cannot, will not "win" without embracing the ways of Jesus Christ. The conservative philosophical outlook is not the way of Jesus Christ. This is not saying it is the left-liberalism either. It is something totally different than our understanding of left or right. I wouldn't even say it is in the middle, it is a complete other.

Anonymous WillBest June 30, 2015 2:00 PM  

The common folk don't trigger estate taxes, and the Oligarchy is little troubled by them. It is mainly a tool that the 0.01% use to keep the 2-0.02% down.

The number of people marrying their descendants in order to duck estate taxes would be a tiny blip in the terms of abuse. If I had to guess #1 insurance fraud (at least until they get universal healthcare); #2 immigration fraud (no doubt it is true love between MS-13 gang members); #3 Legal Fraud (spouses cannot testify about "pillow talk")

Blogger Cail Corishev June 30, 2015 2:01 PM  

I have a few suggestions about how Jews can stop committing so many PR blunders.

They do seem to be unusually ham-handed on this one. First a bunch of leftist Jews bragged about taking the lead on ramming a law the people didn't want through a Court where Jews are over-represented. Then I read about a conservative Jewish group that was opposed to the ruling, so it hired immigrants to protest a celebratory homosexual march because their young Jewish men shouldn't see the kind of things that were happening there. And now Brooks wants to lecture us on how to be Christian.

I don't know where people get the idea that Jews think they're better than everyone else.

Blogger James Dixon June 30, 2015 2:02 PM  

> So have we finally reached the point where one must choose between being a good Citizen or being a good Christian?

If not, then it will be in the next few years. Time to get ready.

> If you are a Christian Christ has already called you to carry your own cross and follow him.

My cross, not his. He knows I'm incapable of carrying his. Heck, he knows I'm incapable of carrying my own, which is why he gives me assistance when needed.

So, where's your cross, Drew?

> Jesus: "Stand firm and obey God."

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

You should know better than pull that BS here.

Blogger Rabbi B June 30, 2015 2:05 PM  

"Christians cannot, will not "win" without embracing the ways of Jesus Christ. The conservative philosophical outlook is not the way of Jesus Christ."

**Shakes head** . . . **Facepalm**

Drew, Drew, Drew . . . I am still waiting for a real argument that demonstrates the falsity of Vox's position, the heart of which you just quoted.

"Vox is wrong when he says to Christians . . ."

Enlighten us.

Blogger Drew June 30, 2015 2:06 PM  

@No Use for a Username “Your answer that only the gospel of Jesus Christ will change the nation is wicked”

Yet, this is the very thing that Jesus did! HE preached the gospel. Are we not to follow him?

“Perhaps this is not the time to begin slitting throats, but to dismiss that there may be a time for such out of hand is to ensure Christian civilization never again rises anywhere.”

Christian civilization to fall? Most likely. The kingdom of God, Christianity as a whole, will thrive forever. That is what is promised.

“But one thing is certain, better letting loose the uncivilized culture warriors than losing our children and grandchildren for generations to Satan.”

Certainly this is not the way of Jesus. The man who taught to turn the other cheek? The man who preached a gospel of peace? The one who taught not to live by the sword? Are we to ignore his teachings so as to save our cushy society? Especially when the rest of the world is in turmoil? I think not.

Blogger CM June 30, 2015 2:09 PM  

Brooks would probably argue (along with a lot of Christians) that the good works would influence the moderates, but as Vox and others have pointed out, the mainstream Christian denominations that went down that road are losing congregates left and right.

Losing by their love of public approval instead of winning by their love of Christ & others.

Blogger James Dixon June 30, 2015 2:11 PM  

> Yet, this is the very thing that Jesus did! HE preached the gospel.

And cast out demons, healed the sick, and raised the dead. Have you done any of those things? I know at one person here who's done two of them. I'll listen to him. Why should I listen to you?

Blogger IM2L844 June 30, 2015 2:13 PM  

".... However, it is not a good solution."

Right. It's way too time consuming. Can you imagine the man hours?

Blogger Drew June 30, 2015 2:13 PM  

@James "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

He came to make peace between God and man. And to reconcile us to each other in peace. The sword of which Christ is speaking about comes from those who reject this peace and reconciliation. He predicts the division his new kingdom would bring. It is not a license for us to wield a sword to advanced his kingdom. If Christ is to bring a sword it is the very sword he will wield in the end.

“You should know better than pull that BS here.”

Hardly BS.

Blogger darkdoc June 30, 2015 2:13 PM  

The number of people marrying their descendants in order to duck estate taxes would be a tiny blip in the terms of abuse.

No doubt, but still.

Really, the point is "they" never have a future orientation. It is too fun to celebrate today. In the light of the next day, the unintended consequences start to appear. Mistakes are never admitted (see Irene Gallo).

It is entertaining to speculate. If estate taxes didn't matter, the Feds wouldn't be so insistent on their continuation. That upper 2% group works hard to keep the Feds from stripping wealth. I live in an area where many farm families are stressed to avoid the selling land to pay estate taxes. It isn't such a joke to them.

Anonymous No Use for a Username June 30, 2015 2:14 PM  

Drew, 75

I think not.

Then at least do us the favor of stepping aside when the adults have to take the field.

Anonymous kfg June 30, 2015 2:16 PM  

"Are we not to follow him? "

And when the very last Christian hangs from a cross, what then?

Blogger JartStar June 30, 2015 2:16 PM  

Patrick Deneen has a great quote in the followup:

"But what Brooks simply neglects to talk about is that Christians are not going to be allowed to depart from the battlefield. Once the atomic weapon of “bigotry” has been used, you can’t just contain the radiation. Christians will be occupied for years yet to come defending their institutions – not because that’s what they want to do, but because they will be forced to."

If traditional Christianity is bigoted by definition then there's no more diplomacy and only conflict is left.

Blogger Drew June 30, 2015 2:19 PM  

@kfg "And when the very last Christian hangs from a cross, what then?"

Will not happen. Our God is bigger. We've been promised victory. We are overcomers through Christ, not the sword.

Blogger Rabbi B June 30, 2015 2:19 PM  

@Drew

You have categorically declared Vox to be wrong. Points I would like to hear you refute:

1.) But the fact is that conservatives didn't have to lose those battles, they simply chose not to fight them.

2.) We could end the gay marriage battle by the end of the week if we wanted; ISIS has demonstrated that it requires little more than rooftops and gravity. That's simply not how we prefer to operate.

3.) Regardless, we have options that range from winning the cultural war through extreme barbarism on the one side
to abject surrender on the other.

4.) And that is why everyone, even our short-sighted opponents, should hope that the civilized cultural warriors win,
because if they don't, history strongly suggests that the uncivilized cultural warriors will.

5.) The pendulum always swings back, and the further it swings one way, the harder it swings back on its return.

6.) David Brooks fails to understand that the problems he laments can only be fixed by rejecting the ruling
left-liberalism he supports and embracing a conservative philosophical outlook.

Please refute, point by blessed point.

Blogger Feather Blade June 30, 2015 2:24 PM  

Really? In CA, NY and other liberal states they are well on the path of no heterosexual sex before marriage.

Or during, or after...

I'm sure it's only a matter of time before the simple statement "I'm straight" earns one the answer "You bigot!"

Blogger JartStar June 30, 2015 2:24 PM  

That's a great question to get to the heart of the matter when discussing SSM, "Do you think traditional Christianity with its rejection of SSM is bigoted?" Make them come out and say they think the whole of traditional Christianity is bigoted and wrong. Make the draw the line in the sand.

Anonymous Beau June 30, 2015 2:28 PM  

And when the very last Christian hangs from a cross, what then?

The Parousia, the Marriage Feast of the Lamb, the assembled myriads of saints and angels.

Blogger SirHamster (#201) June 30, 2015 2:29 PM  

There's a reason we speak of the Salvation Army as having lost their way.

Not familiar with this. Could you expand on it?

Anonymous ph2 June 30, 2015 2:30 PM  

David Brooks: " Shut up and pay Gay Reparations."

Blogger darkdoc June 30, 2015 2:31 PM  

Another Unintended Consequence!

Did the Gay Marriage Ruling Just Legalize Concealed Carry Nationwide? Legal Experts Weigh In

http://www.ijreview.com/2015/6/355349-did-the-gay-marriage-ruling-just-legalize-concealed-carry-nationwide-legal-experts-weigh-in/?

Blogger Drew June 30, 2015 2:32 PM  

@Rabbi B
1. Agree
2. Agree
3. Disagree: as I said before, Christians have been called not to surrender but to endure even in the face of persecution. This does not fall in any range as put forth by Vox. This is a completely “other” way that seems contrary to normal reasoning. This is the example that Christ has given us.
4. Agree, it is desired the civilization will win.
5. Agree, as observed in history.
6. Disagree: there needs to be a rejection of both left and right. Christians need to embrace the teachings and commands of Jesus.

David Brooks is addressing Christians; I assume that Vox too is addressing Christians. This is why I emphasize the teachings and example of Jesus over and against both left and right philosophies.

Blogger Nobody June 30, 2015 2:33 PM  

Jesus taught the gospel of REPENTANCE. We are not to LIVE by the sword, for the swords sake, but we are to gird ourselves with a sword.

Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.

But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.

NOW UNDERSTAND THIS: Put your sword into the sheath. Shall I not drink the cup which My Father has given Me?

Occupy till I come.

Anyhow. Drew, bethinks if Wallymart closed all their stores and re-opened them with a sign saying, "Why fight? Come in and lose your head for peace", you'd walk right in to prove a point.

Anonymous Porky June 30, 2015 2:33 PM  

I want to say it sooooooooooo bad!

Anonymous Beau June 30, 2015 2:38 PM  

The older I get, the more grateful to God I become that I was dismissed from the seminary.

Ah, you have made my morning.

Blogger Drew June 30, 2015 2:38 PM  

@Nobody “Jesus taught the gospel of REPENTANCE.”

And one of peace: Eph 6:15

“Anyhow. Drew, bethinks if Wallymart closed all their stores and re-opened them with a sign saying, "Why fight? Come in and lose your head for peace", you'd walk right in to prove a point.”

This is not my point. The point being that we are not to be the aggressors in this war. Rather we are to proclaim Jesus as Lord and try to live as peace with everyone. When the enemy comes we can defend ourselves. However, we need to remember that our battle is not against flesh and blood. This is why we need to rely upon God and his work in our lives. Trust in him. Those who endure to the end will be saved.

Blogger Chiva June 30, 2015 2:42 PM  

Matthew 7:6 "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces."

Blogger Rabbi B June 30, 2015 2:46 PM  

#3

Do we not have options ranging from "winning the cultural war through extreme barbarism on the one side
to abject surrender on the other"?

#6

" . . . rejecting the ruling left-liberalism he supports and embracing a conservative philosophical outlook rejecting the ruling."

How does this CONFLICT with a Biblical worldview, which you are trying to argue?

Anonymous The Millennial Falcon June 30, 2015 2:49 PM  

@Drew

Did you miss the part where Vox said "And that is why everyone, even our short-sighted opponents, should hope that the civilized cultural warriors win, because if they don't, history strongly suggests that the uncivilized cultural warriors will."

The civilized culture warriors in this scenario are the Christians. If the Gramscian left succeeds in eradicating or otherwise neutering us, then they will find a nightmarish version of the right in our stead coming at them with the full force of the historical pendulum swing.

Your "I didn't hear the question, but the answer is the GOSPEL" routine isn't helping anybody. We were told to preach the Word, not just the good news.

Blogger Nobody June 30, 2015 2:53 PM  

The point being that we are not to be the aggressors in this war.

Since when have WE been the aggressors in this war? Who is being aggressed?

Anti-Christ Police: Mr. Drew, your wife and children are being arrested for religious offense section 209-B. Offending the homosexual. Please follow us to the Guillotine Van to witness their summary execution.

Drew: Peace.

Blogger Drew June 30, 2015 2:59 PM  

@Rabbi B

#3: The way of Jesus is not even within the "range". The only option is to do things God's way.

#6: Conservatism does not equal Christian worldview as it would seem you are saying. No one on the left or right as the corner on Jesus. Vox would have us pick the side of the lesser of two evils, at least in this post. But, picking the lesser of two evils is still picking evil. I'd rather follow Jesus than "conservative philosophy."

Anonymous Soga June 30, 2015 3:02 PM  

Drew, let me ask you: why do you think Christ said to turn the other cheek?

Anonymous The Millennial Falcon June 30, 2015 3:03 PM  

@SirHamster

I worked for The Salvation Army for several years. Their Christian leadership and mission is still intact, albeit made somewhat impotent by the massive layers of bureaucracy built up over the years. The doctrinal divides they have with the rest of Christendom aren't new - they've had women as officers (Army-speak for pastor) for ages. The problem they will be facing in the coming years is how dependent they are on secular support. The church wing hasn't been self-sufficient in ages and a coordinated SJW campaign could take out 50% of their funding. They've managed to tiptoe their way out of confrontations with the gay mafia thus far, but it's about to get a lot tougher for them. They've got such a massive asset base (loaded with valuable property and endowments) that they could definitely withstand a culture siege, but I'm not sure if the leadership is in fighting shape.

Anonymous Krul June 30, 2015 3:03 PM  

Drew, I'm curious. What do you think Vox meant by "conservative philosophy"?

Anonymous kfg June 30, 2015 3:07 PM  

Following in Christ's path is not the same thing as walking with Christ's feet. The followers are not the leader. Men are not God.

"We are overcomers through Christ, not the sword."

That has been shown to work, at least now and again - against those who possess Christian virtue. Against those who do not, the hammer and the sword have proven valuable. Tours and Vienna were not saved by preachers.

Blogger Drew June 30, 2015 3:07 PM  

@The Millennial Falcon "Your "I didn't hear the question, but the answer is the GOSPEL" routine isn't helping anybody. We were told to preach the Word, not just the good news."

But, they are one and the same. You assume I am only concerned with the lovey-dovey portion of the Gospel. The good news is much deeper than you give it credit.

"The civilized culture warriors in this scenario are the Christians."

But how are the Christians going to do it? Through "extreme barbarism"? No, that is not how Christians should act. Through "abject surrender? Absolutely not, then we have already lost. Something in between will not solve the issue either. Getting back to the teachings of Jesus Christ in our churches is the only way we can even begin to address the culture war. Secondly, the only means to win is by preaching the gospel so that peoples lives are changed. This is how the culture war is won, through the proclamation of the Gospel from people living out the Gospel.

Blogger Rabbi B June 30, 2015 3:09 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Rabbi B June 30, 2015 3:11 PM  

"The only option is to do things God's way."

Why is G-d's way not within this range? Please explain.

"Conservatism does not equal Christian worldview as it would seem you are saying."

AS IT SEEMS I AM SAYING? That's not what I am saying.

"I'd rather follow Jesus than "conservative philosophy." "

Oh, for crying out loud, are there not tenets and principles within "conservative philosophy" generally which reflect and do not conflict with truths to which we should be committed? And is not all truth a reflection of the Truth?

Anonymous A.B. Prosper June 30, 2015 3:12 PM  

– Napoleon Bonaparte had it right.
God fights on the side with the best artillery.

Anyway sitting around waiting for Him to show up and help you or save is folly, it may be that He hates passivity and wants us to fight as hard as he encouraged his chosen people back in the Old Testament Days. or he may simply sit it out waiting on us,. God as the Bible shows is nothing if not mysterious

Also even of Gods calls his folks home or they are all slain, mankind might still be here. They are here now .

let me ask how many would you condemn to the Pit if the word is silenced or diluted or tainted. As a Christian you have obligations. I'm a lousy Christian of very little faith and less wit but even I know that Christianity demands activity at times. We aren't the generation who gets to go live in caves and eat locusts

It seems to me a lot of Christians aren't getting that this is bigger than you, than us and matters. We cannot be passive and it in time in this world we will need to protect or establish Christendom

Anonymous Soga June 30, 2015 3:12 PM  

So Drew, what's your stance on homosexuality?

Blogger Drew June 30, 2015 3:19 PM  

@krul ""Drew, I'm curious. What do you think Vox meant by "conservative philosophy"?"

I am sure in this context he means the traditional conservative view regarding marriage within society. At this point I would agree. However, his statement " rejecting the ruling left-liberalism he supports and embracing a conservative philosophical" falls well out of the scope of this post. I assume when Vox says, "conservative philosophy" he is referring to his own flavor of conservatism. One point where I disagree with Vox is his views on race and nationality. I believe that Christ has come and destroyed the wall of separation between the races and nations of the world. Christ has called to himself a people from every tribe, nation, and tongue. Christ has called us to live together peaceably. Vox would believe that this can be done with borders and from afar. However, this is not how we see the early church. It had several races, classes, and nationalities living together side by side in fellowship. Therefore, I reject Vox's "conservative philosophy" as a whole.

Anonymous RedJack #22 June 30, 2015 3:20 PM  

Jesus was a rabble rosuer. He called the religious authorities full of dead crap. He insulted their education.

He overturned the temple money changers. He whipped them.

Act like Christ.

Blogger Drew June 30, 2015 3:22 PM  

@Soga "So Drew, what's your stance on homosexuality?"

Weird question, but I guess it is relevant to the post. I view it as a sin that one can be redeemed from.

Blogger Feather Blade June 30, 2015 3:23 PM  

Did the Gay Marriage Ruling Just Legalize Concealed Carry Nationwide? Legal Experts Weigh In

I think the time to get this test case going is now, while there's still judicial momentum.

Blogger Rabbi B June 30, 2015 3:24 PM  

"One point where I disagree with Vox is his views on race and nationality. I believe that Christ has come and destroyed the wall of separation between the races and nations of the world. Christ has called to himself a people from every tribe, nation, and tongue. Christ has called us to live together peaceably. Vox would believe that this can be done with borders and from afar. However, this is not how we see the early church. It had several races, classes, and nationalities living together side by side in fellowship. Therefore, I reject Vox's "conservative philosophy" as a whole."

Some friendly, unsolicited advice: Stop while you're behind, ask for a refund, and change lines.

Blogger James Dixon June 30, 2015 3:24 PM  

> Hardly BS.

Total and complete BS. Christians will be attacked in their churches, in their workplaces, in public placces, and in their homes; and you would forbid them to even defend themselves, much less take the offensive.

> David Brooks is addressing Christians; I assume that Vox too is addressing Christians

David Brooks is not a Christian. Vox is. Why should we take David's council over Vox's?

> Did the Gay Marriage Ruling Just Legalize Concealed Carry Nationwide?

You expect consistency in the law when it doesn't suit the purposes of our "betters"? Don't be naive.

> The point being that we are not to be the aggressors in this war.

We're not. But we're not to be non-combatants either.

> When the enemy comes we can defend ourselves.

Finally, at least a particle of sense. And when we succeed in fighting off the enemy, are supposed to simply let them withdraw in peace to attack us again at a later time of their choosing?

> the only means to win is by preaching the gospel so that peoples lives are changed.

God will not force people to accept his word to make our lives easier. Those we can reach will be reached. Those we can't are another matter.

> This is how the culture war is won, through the proclamation of the Gospel from people living out the Gospel.

And when "living out the Gospel" is a capital crime? What then? Will you meekly go to the gallows?


Anonymous Soga June 30, 2015 3:25 PM  

Thank you Drew. So when a gay person becomes a new Christian, do you try to teach him to lead a new life, repenting of all sins, including homosexuality?

Blogger Drew June 30, 2015 3:28 PM  

@Rabbi B "AS IT SEEMS I AM SAYING? That's not what I am saying."

Perhaps I worded my sentence wrong. Do you see "conservative philosophy" as being equal with a biblical worldview?

"Why is G-d's way not within this range? Please explain."

God's way, as revealed by Jesus, is not one of barbarianism or surrender to the world. It is not anything in between. Jesus submitted to the worlds barbarianism so as not to surrender to the world.

Which would you say is the way of God? Barbarianism or surrender? Which end of the spectrum would God's way fall?

"Oh, for crying out loud, are there not tenets and principles within "conservative philosophy" generally which reflect and do not conflict with truths to which we should be committed? And is not all truth a reflection of the Truth? "

Depends on your version of "conservative philosophy." I mention this in my post to Krul.

Blogger Drew June 30, 2015 3:32 PM  

@soga "Thank you Drew. So when a gay person becomes a new Christian, do you try to teach him to lead a new life, repenting of all sins, including homosexuality?"

Certainly, I would teaching them the Scriptures. But I can't change them. That is the Holy Spirits job.

Blogger darkdoc June 30, 2015 3:32 PM  

You expect consistency in the law when it doesn't suit the purposes of our "betters"? Don't be naive.


Take the iron rod out of your back. Maybe you'll be able to see the humor in the idea that these things have unintended consequences.

Anonymous Soga June 30, 2015 3:34 PM  

Last question, Drew. Do you believe we should do what we can, according to God's Will, to remove stumbling blocks that may cause people to cling to their sins?

Anonymous kfg June 30, 2015 3:34 PM  

"Jesus submitted to the worlds barbarianism so as not to surrender to the world."

And many, many men have done the same, but they were men, not God. Jesus was not simply another Stoic, he surrendered to barbarism to save the world, which only God can do.

Blogger James Dixon June 30, 2015 3:36 PM  

> Maybe you'll be able to see the humor in the idea that these things have unintended consequences.

If those consequences would be allowed to happen, I could see the humor. They won't. It doesn't matter what the law says. The courts don't care anymore.

Blogger Drew June 30, 2015 3:37 PM  

@James Dixon "David Brooks is not a Christian. Vox is. Why should we take David's council over Vox's?"

One can address Christians and not be a Christian, if he indeed is not a Christian. Also, I am not saying you should take David's council. I am not saying you should take anyone's council.

" And when we succeed in fighting off the enemy, are supposed to simply let them withdraw in peace to attack us again at a later time of their choosing?"

What would you recommend? Utter destruction?

"Those we can reach will be reached. Those we can't are another matter."

Are we then to force others into submission?

"And when "living out the Gospel" is a capital crime? What then? Will you meekly go to the gallows?"

If by force then yes.

Anonymous Porky June 30, 2015 3:39 PM  

He overturned the temple money changers. He whipped them.

Act like Christ.


The apostles did not do this.

They preached. They spoke out. Then they died.

Blogger Drew June 30, 2015 3:42 PM  

@Soga "Last question, Drew. Do you believe we should do what we can, according to God's Will, to remove stumbling blocks that may cause people to cling to their sins?"

As much as possible, within the guidelines of Scripture. Though, we are promised that temptations will come. God will even allow one to be tempted in order to mold and shape us. We will not be able to eliminate all temptations.

Anonymous Soga June 30, 2015 3:42 PM  

Porky wrote:
The apostles did not do this.


Someone's conveniently forgetting the strong words Paul had for entryists into the early Church.

Blogger Drew June 30, 2015 3:43 PM  

@kfg "And many, many men have done the same, but they were men, not God. Jesus was not simply another Stoic, he surrendered to barbarism to save the world, which only God can do."

And yet we are told to take up our own cross and follow him. Not for salvation of the world but for our own.

Anonymous Soga June 30, 2015 3:44 PM  

Then, Drew, you should encourage those who would fight against these who place stumbling blocks in the ways of men.

Because if this is not done, men with less capacity for patience will act.

Anonymous zen0 June 30, 2015 3:48 PM  

Drew:

"Conservatism does not equal Christian worldview as it would seem you are saying."

Rabbi B:

AS IT SEEMS I AM SAYING? That's not what I am saying.


zen0. That's an SJW tell, Rabbi B, or, at least a rhetorical rather than dialectical thinker. Make of it what you will.

Blogger James Dixon June 30, 2015 3:49 PM  

> Also, I am not saying you should take David's council. I am not saying you should take anyone's council.

Good. You won't mind if I don't take yours then.

> What would you recommend? Utter destruction?

Me? Yes. But then I have a family heritage to uphold.

> Are we then to force others into submission?

What is this submission of which you speak? I simply want them to be incapable of attacking us again. I know of only one way to make that a certainty.

> If by force then yes.

Quoting someone well known to the regulars here: "... go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”

Blogger darkdoc June 30, 2015 3:50 PM  

If those consequences would be allowed to happen, I could see the humor. They won't. It doesn't matter what the law says. The courts don't care anymore.

My point is that there WILL be consequences, there can't help but be when you have twisted court rulings. Just the idea that if a number of states support a certain view, they all will be forced, is a novel interpretation. You'll be able to watch jurists, rather that angels, dancing on the head of a pin.

It'll be both funny and frustrating, but immensely amusing to watch. It is all a further validation of the decline of our culture Vox describes. The legal system prides itself on logic, but it is SO gone.

Blogger James Dixon June 30, 2015 3:50 PM  

> And yet we are told to take up our own cross and follow him.

Again, Drew, where is your cross?

Anonymous The Millennial Falcon June 30, 2015 3:51 PM  

@ Drew

Who is advocating extreme barbarism as a Christian tool? You completely misinterpreted Vox's statement. Again, the Christian culture warriors are fighting for the souls of our opponents, or at least those little ones that they are leading astray. The warriors that will take up the fight if the Christians lose it are the extreme barbarians.

Your mantra that we need to get back to the teachings of Jesus Christ in our churches does not in any way contradict the need to engage in the Culture War and yet you keep on repeating it like it's some sort of rebuttal. We are fishers of men, and guess what, we've got competition. They are stealing our nets and cutting our lines and firing on our boats and dumping our existing haul back into the sea.

The Pharisees were the SJWs of Jesus' day. They lied, they entrapped, they infiltrated, they subverted, they preyed on widows and orphans, and they violently resisted any attempts to undermine their moral and cultural authority.

Stop pretending like this is some petty material turf war that "good Christians" should rise above - this is a battle over truth and moral authority and the enemy combatants are the false teachers that Jesus and the disciples spent their entire ministries fighting.

-apologies if this message appears multiple times. Keeps getting eaten.

Blogger James Dixon June 30, 2015 3:54 PM  

> My point is that there WILL be consequences...

Yes, I just don't agree with you about what they'll be. :) I grant that the legal arguments will be entertaining, but I've got other things I find more entertaining.

Anonymous kfg June 30, 2015 3:54 PM  

"And yet we are told to take up our own cross and follow him."

And so Constantine picked up a chi rho in one hand, and sword in the other, and Christianity was saved from obscurity, perhaps even extinction. The historical record seems to show that God favors those who bear the cross in their weak hand, and sword in their strong.

Paganism was defeated in Trial by Combat. They submitted by choice only after their gods had proven to be weak in battle.

Blogger August June 30, 2015 3:55 PM  

This is reminding me of the anti-abortionists I would run into. They had accepted non-violence as so fundamental to their identity, that I doubt they could have applied enough force to turn off a light switch in service of their cause.

Anonymous Soga June 30, 2015 3:55 PM  

It's fascinating that Drew tells us to take up our cross for only our own salvation, yet he seems insistent on taking up the cross for others' salvations.

You can't have it both ways, Drew. Either we watch out for our own skins, or we stand against evil for the sake of our weaker brothers. So which will it be?

Blogger Drew June 30, 2015 3:58 PM  

@James Dixon "Me? Yes. But then I have a family heritage to uphold."

Great way to love your enemy! Wish utter destruction on your enemies. Certainly you don't believe that this is the way of Christ?

"Quoting someone well known to the regulars here: "... go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”

One can defend themselves, and go to war, without being the initiators and wishing utter destruction on their enemies. They reject Christ for a reason, they are lost. They need the Gospel as much as you or I. If they die at our hands while defending our homes it is tragic. If we die at their hands and yet later are moved towards repentance because of our witness then that is better.

Blogger Nobody June 30, 2015 4:03 PM  

They preached. They spoke out. Then they died.

Also remember at the time, they were just a very small sect. That changed over time. And did in fact, become physical in many occasions. History is filled with examples. Yet here we are, in some kind of puppy love.

Anonymous George of the Jungle June 30, 2015 4:04 PM  

So, Drew, there are Christians being slain in hideous ways right now in the Mideast. You did know that, didn't you? You seem to have some generic solution in mind for us here, but it's a little short on specifics. Instead of the holier-than-thou nattering, why don't you fly out to the Mideast and show us exactly what you have in mind? (Going out there without heavy artillery is not my idea of a solution, by the way, so don't ask me to come along for the ride).

Blogger Drew June 30, 2015 4:08 PM  

@soga "You can't have it both ways, Drew. Either we watch out for our own skins, or we stand against evil for the sake of our weaker brothers. So which will it be?"

We are also told to bear one another's burdens. But each one still has to bear their own cross.

What you and everyone here assumes is that I am saying we shouldn't fight. On the contrary, I do think we should fight. But, the question is by what means? By barbarianism or abject surrender? I say neither. Our weapons are not carnal, yet, powerful enough to tear down strong holds. I am just crazy enough to believe that God's way of reconciliation, the proclamation that Jesus is Lord, and living trying to live peaceably with everyone will change this world. If this means wielding a physical sword in defense so be it. However, I will not wield my sword as a means to change this world.

Anonymous Soga June 30, 2015 4:08 PM  

The warrior cuts a path for the missionary.

The early Christians could witness because Roman soldiers made the cities safe for travelers.

Christians will still need men that can prepare the way for messengers. Nothing in the Bible contradicts this. After all, God appears to have a preference for using people for His purposes, rather than perform miracles.

Blogger James Dixon June 30, 2015 4:09 PM  

> Certainly you don't believe that this is the way of Christ?

You didn't ask me what Christ would do. You asked what I would do. And being a fallen human, I am not always capable of acting as Christ would have me do, or even of always knowing what Christ would have me do.

> One can defend themselves, and go to war, without being the initiators..

Yes, one can.

> ...and wishing utter destruction on their enemies.

No, one can't. If you think one can, you don't know what war is.

> If we die at their hands and yet later are moved towards repentance because of our witness then that is better.

You're welcome to make that decision for yourself, but not for others. I reject it, utterly and completely.

Blogger Drew June 30, 2015 4:09 PM  

@George of the Jungle "(Going out there without heavy artillery is not my idea of a solution, by the way, so don't ask me to come along for the ride)."

Your faith is misplaced my friend.

Blogger VFM bot #188 June 30, 2015 4:11 PM  

Many Christians assert their religion is one of pacifism. That is not my understanding at all. The moneychangers in the temple didn't pack up and leave voluntarily, and when He said "if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one," he wasn't talking about being passive victims.

Blogger James Dixon June 30, 2015 4:11 PM  

> However, I will not wield my sword as a means to change this world.

No one has asked you to. We've asked you to get out of our way. Our calling is not yours.

Blogger The Only Cigar in the Box June 30, 2015 4:15 PM  

The defining face of social conservatism could be this: Those are the people who go into underprivileged areas and form organizations to help nurture stable families. Those are the people who build community institutions in places where they are sparse. Those are the people who can help us think about how economic joblessness and spiritual poverty reinforce each other. Those are the people who converse with us about the transcendent in everyday life.

Brooks assumes that his right to preach his religion is guaranteed.

Given the recent Supreme Court rulings, I question that.

Blogger Chris Ritchie June 30, 2015 4:16 PM  

“Put aside a culture war that has alienated large parts of three generations from any consideration of religion or belief.”
This is a bad start right there. 3 generations were immune to this Gospel message:
1. There is a God
2. You will die
3. God will judge you for your sins
4. Jesus paid the price for your sins so that after you die, you will have eternal life
5. The “work” of God for salvation is to simply “believe on the one whom He sent.”

I don’t understand how this has been so thoroughly rejected. Am I wrong that this is the Gospel message? I always thought it was good news that we could have a relationship with God and life everlasting. Seemed like a good deal to me. And all I had to do was believe and let Jesus change me and mold me to Christ-likeness? I don’t see how even the most broken representative of Jesus could distort that message so that people could just attack the Gospel with Ad Hominem attacks and miss the centrality of eternal life and a relationship with the Creator. How is that the messengers’ faults?

Blogger Chris Ritchie June 30, 2015 4:16 PM  

“Many adults hunger for meaning and goodness, but lack a spiritual vocabulary to think things through.”
No, they don’t lack the vocabulary. They rejected the call of Jesus and sought for any other way to fulfill their need for meaning and goodness. Yet they still want to blame Christians for their poor decisions? Give me a break! Especially in the U.S.A., most people know the Gospel message. They just refuse to respond to it.

Blogger Chris Ritchie June 30, 2015 4:16 PM  

“As Jartstar commented, Brooks wants Christians to clean up the social wreckage being caused by people who reject Christianity, but neither prevent them from causing more damage nor even teach them how to stop harming themselves and others.”

This nails it. And leads to my always unanswered question. “If we can’t codify into law our religious beliefs that led to a well-ordered society without it being called a theocracy, what are we supposed to do with the encroaching parasitic evil as it demands entrance, assent, and validation in our lives?”

Blogger SirHamster (#201) June 30, 2015 4:20 PM  

@ The Millennial Falcon,

Thanks. So they have avoided confrontation in past, but will soon have to choose between standing or fleeing.

Anonymous George of the Jungle June 30, 2015 4:22 PM  

Duly noted, Drew... as I expected, you avoided answering my question with even more sinful pride and holier-than-thou generic nonsense.

Anonymous kfg June 30, 2015 4:22 PM  

"He said "if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one," he . . . "

. . . appears to have been an open carry advocate.

Blogger Drew June 30, 2015 4:27 PM  

@James Dixon "And being a fallen human, I am not always capable of acting as Christ would have me do, or even of always knowing what Christ would have me do."

Being fallen is no excuse for neglecting the commands of Christ to love your enemies. This takes advantage of the grace of God. You are more than welcome to do what you want. Christ will hold you accountable for what you do.

"I reject it, utterly and completely."

You've rejected the actions of Christ then, and reject his call to follow after him.

Anonymous Frank B Luke June 30, 2015 4:28 PM  

>And so Constantine picked up a chi rho in one hand, and sword in the other, and Christianity was saved from obscurity, perhaps even extinction. The historical record seems to show that God favors those who bear the cross in their weak hand, and sword in their strong.

Amen. We can add Nehemiah 4:15 and following to your argument.

15 When our enemies heard that it was known to us, and that God had frustrated their plan, then all of us returned to the wall, each one to his work. 16 From that day on, half of my servants carried on the work while half of them held the spears, the shields, the bows and the breastplates; and the captains were behind the whole house of Judah. 17 Those who were rebuilding the wall and those who carried burdens [b]took their load with one hand doing the work and the other holding a weapon.[/b] 18 As for the builders, each wore his sword girded at his side as he built, while the trumpeter stood near me. 19 I said to the nobles, the officials and the rest of the people, “The work is great and extensive, and we are separated on the wall far from one another. 20 “At whatever place you hear the sound of the trumpet, rally to us there. Our God will fight for us.”

21 So we carried on the work with half of them holding spears from dawn until the stars appeared. 22 At that time I also said to the people, “Let each man with his servant spend the night within Jerusalem so that they may be a guard for us by night and a laborer by day.” 23 So neither I, my brothers, my servants, nor the men of the guard who followed me, none of us removed our clothes, each took his weapon even to the water.

They performed what God called them to do and were ready to defend themselves as needed.

Blogger Chris Ritchie June 30, 2015 4:31 PM  

"Grandma, on her deathbed, can now legally marry her grandaughter, thus inheriting all the estate, retirement (pension, military, social security) funds transfer to the surviving spouse, and the IRS can say, "Bye, Bye" to inheritance taxes. Rinse and repeat."

That's an interesting black knighting position!

Blogger darkdoc June 30, 2015 4:31 PM  

. . . appears to have been an open carry advocate.

See, now that's funny.

James - have you read any of the Gamma postings on Alpha Game?

Anonymous Sparky June 30, 2015 4:31 PM  

"Your faith is misplaced my friend."

You didn't answer the question. This is my surprise face.

Anonymous Porky June 30, 2015 4:33 PM  

Someone's conveniently forgetting the strong words Paul had for entryists into the early Church.

What part of "they spoke out" did you not understand?

Also remember at the time, they were just a very small sect. That changed over time. And did in fact, become physical in many occasions.

Contrary to Christ's teaching, of course.

When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next

Anonymous BGS June 30, 2015 4:36 PM  

"He said "if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one," he . . . " . . . appears to have been an open carry advocate.

It is pretty hard to conceal carry a sword, especially without a cloak.

Blogger Drew June 30, 2015 4:37 PM  

@George of the Jungle "Duly noted, Drew... as I expected, you avoided answering my question with even more sinful pride and holier-than-thou generic nonsense"

Why the insults? I should not have to defend my call from God. I am not called to the Middle East. Many are called to go there, many die, others succeed.

I have gone to the mission field in Kenya actually. They have had their own persecution, much of which does not make national news. Not as extreme as ISIS, but people die nonetheless. This is not meant to boast or be "holier-than-thou". But to point out that I have a different calling.

Now concerning my point in saying you have misplaced your faith: forgive me if I sound prideful but it was meant only to be pastoral. When I was called to go to Kenya I was fearful. I've never been over seas up to that point. Nonetheless, I was called to go. I resolved to go regardless of the unknown dangers. If God called me he will protect me. If I die I go to be with him. I went, lived, and was successful. I just recently took my second trip last April.

My faith is in God, not heavy artillery. If I was called to the Middle East I would gladly, but reluctantly, go.

It is funny you would expect me not to answer without even knowing me.

Blogger Chris Ritchie June 30, 2015 4:41 PM  

Patrick Deneen has a great quote in the followup:

"But what Brooks simply neglects to talk about is that Christians are not going to be allowed to depart from the battlefield. Once the atomic weapon of “bigotry” has been used, you can’t just contain the radiation. Christians will be occupied for years yet to come defending their institutions – not because that’s what they want to do, but because they will be forced to."

If traditional Christianity is bigoted by definition then there's no more diplomacy and only conflict is left.


Just saved that to Evernote.

Blogger Chris Ritchie June 30, 2015 4:49 PM  

This is not my point. The point being that we are not to be the aggressors in this war. Rather we are to proclaim Jesus as Lord and try to live as peace with everyone. When the enemy comes we can defend ourselves.

And this is the $64,000 question: What line does the enemy have to cross before we defend ourselves?

1. Our national border? When millions of unregistered illegal aliens are given the right to vote thus nullifying our honest votes? Is that when?

2. Our national laws? When the state demands a bakery pay over a $100,000 fine to a bunch of deviant homosexuals? Is that when?

3. Our state laws? When some deranged muslim cuts off someone's head in the name of Allah? Is that when?

4. Our cities? When there are areas in suburban Dearborn that you can't drive in because the inhabitant muslims there turn you back? When you can't go to downtown San Francisco without witnessing lewd acts? When babies are still being murdered daily in the Planned Parenthood abortion clinic in the town's ghetto? Is that when?

5. Our homes? Should we just wait and let all of that happen and let the enemy advance to the point they have in northern Iraq where they are pulling Christians out of their homes and murdering them? Is that when?

Blogger ScuzzaMan June 30, 2015 4:55 PM  

Drew

You need to read the OT a bit more. Not that it's different materially from the NT, but the emphasis is different and people are easily confused.

When it is YOUR ass on the line, you are welcome to sacrifice it to your pacifist principles, you are entitled, encouraged, and commanded to do so.

But the function of the strong amongst believers is to protect the weak. And it is fecking difficult to do that while you're making a martyr of yourself.

So if, as Paul discussed, you're a single man with no dependents, no aging parents, no wife or children, then go ahead and throw yourself on the bonfire of the left's vanities.

But if not ...

Blogger Bard June 30, 2015 4:55 PM  

Use the story of the Maccabees. It is better. Don't fight on sabbath and sit in a cave and get slaughtered. Maybe not such a good idea. Fight on sabbath and slaughter the enemy and reclaim the temple. That I can go with. The part I don't like is all the brothers being horribly killed in front of their mother. Is that the good Christian thing to do Drew?

Blogger Nobody June 30, 2015 4:55 PM  

Contrary to Christ's teaching, of course.

And that they did.

Now, when you have hordes of say, Muslims/Barbarians attempting to make the whole world its Caliphate/Barbaric State, how many towns do you flee to, before the whole world is under the Muslim/Barbaric thumb?

Are we not, as strong men, to bind those who attempt to enter our house?

Blogger Bard June 30, 2015 4:59 PM  

It is time for a Crusade!

Blogger Nobody June 30, 2015 5:01 PM  

Or, I will give my life for Christ, but I will not give my loved ones over to Baal.

Anonymous Porky June 30, 2015 5:06 PM  

Now, when you have hordes of say, Muslims/Barbarians attempting to make the whole world its Caliphate/Barbaric State, how many towns do you flee to, before the whole world is under the Muslim/Barbaric thumb?

Whoever your eschatology teacher is, he needs to have his license revoked.

Are we not, as strong men, to bind those who attempt to enter our house?

Bind? How about a 12 gauge slug instead?

Anonymous patrick kelly June 30, 2015 5:08 PM  

"And when "living out the Gospel" is a capital crime? What then? Will you meekly go to the gallows?"

That's what many Christians of the first few centuries did, although "meekly" isn't what you think....they held their heads high, proclaiming the Gospel and their faith,some of them spared miraculously, others appeared to be carried to Heaven in the flames, and as they went, unbelievers, some up till then participating in the persecution and executions, had their hearts and souls pierced, coming to Christ and joining them as martyrs the same day........and so The Church grew.....efforts to eradicate them failed......by the mightiest power in the region.....

Have you read Fox's Book of Martyrs or any Lives of The Saints?

How can you be so sure God does not require the same today...and I write this knowing I would likely fail to follow their example....but it is in the back of my mind always when contemplating these matters.....

However, we are not currently faces with only the choices of either barbaric violent resistance (Vox did not urge Christians to do this unless I completely misunderstood what he wrote) or passive surrender and submission.....I don't think that's what Drew is advocating either, but he's a bit more ambiguous.....

Anonymous Porky June 30, 2015 5:14 PM  

"And when "living out the Gospel" is a capital crime? What then? Will you meekly go to the gallows?"

Stephen even asked God to forgive the sons of bitches.

THAT was one meek dude.

Blogger Chris Ritchie June 30, 2015 5:22 PM  

How can you be so sure God does not require the same today...and I write this knowing I would likely fail to follow their example....but it is in the back of my mind always when contemplating these matters.....

But this is the question. If that is all Christians ever did, would we have ever had borders or cities or communities to defend? What does God expect us to do? All go willfully to the guillotine? I can't in good conscience do that when I know it will mean my daughters (and sons now) being sold into slavery and God knows what happening to my wife. I just can't believe God would want me to lay down and be a martyr knowing it meant torture and servitude for the rest of my family, who I was responsible for. And this isn't conjecture. This exact thing is happening right now in Syria and in northern Iraq.

Blogger Mark Citadel June 30, 2015 5:29 PM  

I had given the more radical approach on Dreher's comment section. Unfortunately, one of his altar boys complained and maligned me, as such I am no longer allowed to comment there. Very typical. The Benedict Option is a good start, and better in formulation than the almost British aproach Brooks advocates here (how well has that worked out for Christians in the UK?). Dreher's adherence to the concept of a 'parallel society' is a good start, but you need to take it one step further.

It is not enough to try and imitate the Amish and hope nobody comes to kill you and rape your wife and children. Your parallel society must be acutely aware of the threats it faces, and its ultimate political goal, which I would argue at this point, without excuses and applicable to every Christian, is the establishment of an explicitly Christian Reactionary State.

As to some of the above comments, it is healthy to have a debate over what methods are acceptable where to achieve our ultimate goals. However, I do think people need to recover from this 'Teddy Bear Jesus' syndrome, because it is purely an invention of Modern Liberal Christianity. It would appear totally alien to our ancestors who actually built Christendom.
Our personal enemies differ from our political enemies in a very key way.
A personal enemy is a perceived threat to you. Do not raise your hand to such people, unless your very life is under threat, when all other avenues of recourse have been exhausted,
A political enemy is a different animal. He can be seen akin to a foreign soldier in war. His threat is not merely to you, but to a litany of things that go beyond you, the cultural life, the nation, the safety of your familial legacy, and the honor of your ancestors, and on and on. The Modern political enemy undergoes a further categorization even beyond this, for his threat is completely unique in history. His threat is to the World of Tradition itself, which is of almost limitless value, as a direct channel towards the experience of God.

Naturally, moral as well as often overlooked pragmatic considerations and judgments remain applicable, but these caveats should never exit the mind of anyone who self-identifies as an enemy of Modernity.

OpenID simplytimothy June 30, 2015 5:29 PM  

Roger Simon at PJM seems surprised that we have not acquiesced; it has him worried. Now Brooks.

I remember a tale about catching the tail of the tiger...

Blogger Nobody June 30, 2015 6:00 PM  

Stephen even asked God to forgive the sons of bitches.

He hardly had a choice in the matter. And besides, he had at least a million Christians around him cheering on his stoning for Jesus.

Anonymous Reasonable, and Not a Hypocrite June 30, 2015 6:17 PM  

The Holy Father is teaching to not worry about gays... but instead to worry about Global Warming.

Mr. Day: Why are not listening to your Pope?

Blogger Danby June 30, 2015 6:26 PM  

@Unreasonable

His pope? In what way?

Vox did you submit to the authority of God's holy Catholic Church while I wasn't paying attention?

Blogger Danby June 30, 2015 6:29 PM  

more seriously;
The pope has no authority on tactics whatsoever. His authority is strictly limited to matters of faith and morals.

Anonymous patrick kelly June 30, 2015 6:48 PM  

@173." I just can't believe God would want me to lay down and be a martyr knowing it meant torture and servitude for the rest of my family, who I was responsible for."

Why are you (or I) such a special snowflake? For that is exactly what thousands did, families martyred together.

I don't have a perfect answer. I can also plainly see when God's providence has been with those in history who have raised the sword effectively and resisted tyranny in a very physical manner.

Anonymous patrick kelly June 30, 2015 6:50 PM  

178.Danby

He won't answer, he's a drive by troll-bot.

Blogger James Dixon June 30, 2015 7:18 PM  

> Being fallen is no excuse for neglecting the commands of Christ to love your enemies.

Do I really need to point out that love does not equate to not killing. Apparently so.

> You've rejected the actions of Christ then, and reject his call to follow after him.

In your opinion. I'll leave that up to him to decide. I already told you I would not take your council.

> James - have you read any of the Gamma postings on Alpha Game?

If directed to me, no. I don't have much if anything to contribute to Alpha Game.

> I should not have to defend my call from God.

But you certainly seem to expect us to.

> ... but it was meant only to be pastoral.

You're not my shepherd.

> My faith is in God, not heavy artillery.

My faith is in God. One of my tools is heavy artillery.

> How can you be so sure God does not require the same today.

If that's what he wants of me he'll be certain to make it known. He's never been bashful about using the 2x4 to get my attention before.

> Stephen even asked God to forgive the sons of bitches.

I've never claimed to be a saint, Porky. :)

> Mr. Day: Why are not listening to your Pope?

Because he's not his pope, moron.

> Why are you (or I) such a special snowflake?

We all have our callings, Patrick. Each of us serves in his own way. We're willing to allow Drew to serve in his. Why won't he let us serve in ours?

Blogger Danby June 30, 2015 7:23 PM  

@Patrick,
I know. It's not his first trip through. But it needed to be answered.for the record.

Anonymous Godfrey June 30, 2015 7:26 PM  

Contemporary "culture" is manufactured. It is a method of control and manipulation. "Culture" is driven top down with specific objectives in mind. One of the major objectives of the ruling classes is to drastically reduce population levels.

What does the promotion of all the following have in common?

Contraception
Feminism
Delaying marriage
Abortion
Sterilization
Homosexuality

All have been promoted and forced upon the "culture" within the last several decades.

Why do the elites want central control of healthcare?


We're being managed. We're being controlled. We're being culled.

The "conservatives" are bought and paid for by the same people that own the "liberals". You don't get SELECTED (note: not elected) for public office unless you've sold out or you have something in your file that can be used to control you.

Anonymous Godfrey June 30, 2015 7:36 PM  

David, do the "good deeds" include dying in the empires wars? Does the passivity include not participating in the empire's various military bombing, expansions and invasions?

Anonymous BGS June 30, 2015 7:36 PM  

Are we not, as strong men, to bind those who attempt to enter our house? Bind? How about a 12 gauge slug instead?

I am with Porky on this one unless they are cute.

Blogger CM June 30, 2015 7:45 PM  

Well...

It would appear Brazil is going to attempt to make Christophobia a hate crime after some pretty... perverted, disgusting, satanic displays from a recent pride parade.

I need JCW's vocabulary here...

Blogger Nobody June 30, 2015 7:55 PM  

>>>Are we not, as strong men, to bind those who attempt to enter our house? >>>Bind? How about a 12 gauge slug instead?

>>>I am with Porky on this one unless they are cute.

*****************

House House House House

Are ye blind?

Anonymous kfg June 30, 2015 7:55 PM  

Godfrey: It's all basic animal husbandry. We wouldn't even have "healthcare" if it weren't. We'd still have medicine.

Healthcare is the statistical practice of maintaining the overall health of a population for maximum economic yield. Individual animals don't exist as such, as only the population is the metric of value and culling is a necessary practice to maintain that value.

Medicine is the treatment of an individual in order to restore its health and perhaps save its life, because the individual's life is of value. Populations don't exist as such, because the population is not the sick individual requiring treatment. Culling is unthinkable.

Triage is a special case.

Anonymous zen0 June 30, 2015 9:24 PM  

@ Porky

> Stephen even asked God to forgive the sons of bitches.

He did not actually put it that way. KjV: Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.

Now, Saul of Tarsus, who became Paul, approved of this action.

The point being, that once he heard the Gospel from the Lord, he changed.

Since then, the Gospel, for all intents and purposes, has been preached throughout the world for 2000 years.

I find it hard to believe that SJWs or others oppose the Gospel out of ignorance.
They make a conscious decision to do so.
One cannot forgive them on the basis that they know not what they do.

Blogger Retrenched June 30, 2015 9:29 PM  

"Doctor, please heal my wife, she's very sick. But, don't tell her to quit smoking, or to stop eating ten cheeseburgers for dinner, or to get up off the couch and exercise, or to stop shooting heroin and meth, or.."

Anonymous A.B. Prosper June 30, 2015 9:37 PM  

You know maybe we can dispense with the philosophical argument and simplify here. Christians need an explicitly Conservative Christian state, maybe they should fight for one.

That's what Mccardle and Brooks and the others fear, that Christians realize it must be homeland or death and they become willing to fight for that ideal. I'd guess there are enough Christians to make this happen, if the will was there.

Those folks being beltway types know this would result in nasty war, probably the end of the union and in the end, the end of their influence and prosperity. That scares them. That God might just be on the side of his people in the war scares them even more,

Let me remind folks of some things , it doesn't have to be a cruel state, we can avoid being Vlad Tepes it can tolerate other faiths to a degree that they don't undermine society and most important be self supporting

I'd guess there are thirty to forty million White Christians, a few million other races and another ten more if you can get the Mormons on board and a few million far from Churched people like me who'd do well in such a place, that's enough for an empire and if every man and women have three kids ? In the long run even if we lose a few. The US is again Christian

That's the real deal right there, the idea no one wants to consider. An actual honest to God Christendom.

Also I know someone will be thinking L.D.S.? WtF ? What they believe is almost certainly in error however in terms of how they act, well they are fruitful, spiritual and not too worldly. The act far more like a Christian should than many evangelicals especially those Satanic prosperity gospel types . To my way of thinking, there is a doctrinal error that God can deal with and I suspect given the way they behave, with mercy. They do follow doctrine on the big issues anyway

If I'm wrong, hey up to God not me. They can have Utah and Hell.The weather is about the same . And yes that is a joke. Utah is pretty nice actually.

Anonymous BGS June 30, 2015 9:52 PM  

A.B. Prosper The other good thing about LDS is they believe they have to have 5 years of food stored for bad times.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 30, 2015 9:59 PM  

Now concerning my point in saying you have misplaced your faith: forgive me if I sound prideful but it was meant only to be pastoral.

Go preach somewhere else, pilgrim.

OpenID 46599eb4-0a0e-11e4-aa57-5fa0185c412d June 30, 2015 9:59 PM  

Lot's of stubborn comments here about Christian pacifism. There could be a looong blog post rejecting that with biblical quotes, Catholic tradition, and pious legends. All of which predate Constantine's Edict of Milan, when Christians were politically powerless.

Jesus submitted to Pilate because Gold allowed Pilate's authority. Earthly authorities must, on occasion wield the sword. The present day earthly authorities regard us as the enemy who must be controlled.

We lost the fight against gay 'marriage', when we as Christians accepted the legitimacy of no fault divorce. That is when state recognized marriage ceased to be marriage in the Christian sense.

We war against powers and principalities as St. Paul said in Ephesians. The gays are just the chosen weapon of the demons and progressives to beat the Christians and traditionalists. When the usefulness of the gays is at an end, they will be thrown under the bus.

Anonymous zen0 June 30, 2015 10:39 PM  

In the midst of studying History Of Strategy, Chapter 6, War at Sea.

I cannot help but think of the Mahan versus Corbett debate on naval strategy.

One approach is Command of the Sea, to overwhelm and destroy. The other relies on the fact that defense in more powerful, ala Clausewitz and Jomini in their mature analyses.

Now that homosexual marriage is lawful, they may think they have Command of the Sea, but of course, once a position is established, it is vulnerable to assault by various means.

Especially on the bounding main. Denigrate it, ho-hum it, criticize it, make it as unexciting as heterosexual marriage. Be creative. Move fast. Be brave. Wait for the signs.

Make their marriages ashes in their mouths. Throw down their standing stones.
Just the fact that the State approves, deligitimizes the gay Sandwhich as an icon of progression.

Rub their face in it.

Back to the Sea. As long as any position can be held on the Sea, it denies Command of the Sea to the Mahanbots.

I hope I have made myself clear.

Anonymous George of the Jungle June 30, 2015 10:49 PM  

@Drew

Again you are being either duplicitous or willfully ignorant. "I went to Kenya" is not an answer to my question. You hide behind a cherry-picked set of Christ's statements, but refuse to identify what you would specifically do if you were part of some Christian community in the Mideast that was overrun by Islam. To me this reeks of sanctimony. It is also disingenuous to pretend that you are not castigating those other Christians here who believe in drawing a line and actively defending the faith in all its myriad forms that comprise the bedrock of society (I urge to read the post from Chris Ritchie June 30, 2015 4:49 PM).

In short, you are simply mouthing moral platitudes, and thereby exhibiting inordinate pride cloaked in false humility (all of which is a sin). I urge you, respectfully, to suspend the homilies, read what others have posted here, and really try to understand it.

Anonymous zen0 June 30, 2015 10:54 PM  

Drew goes to Kenya

Beau goes to San Fran

There has to be something in that.

Anonymous Reasonable, and Not a Hypocrite June 30, 2015 11:18 PM  

"Vox did you submit to the authority of God's holy Catholic Church while I wasn't paying attention?"

In other words, Vox Day is a bad Christian, a bad person, and a hypocrite. Vox Day does NOT listen to your Pope. You should listen... stop talking about gays, start celebrating gay rights, and start speaking up against Climate Change... just like your church and god command you to.

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