Vox Popoli: Two schools of customer care

Now, I have no standing to tell Tor Books how it should run its business or interact with its customers. But I do find the difference between the two rival schools of thought on the matter to be pretty astonishing when you compare and contrast them. One of our customers recently sent us this note

An unsolicited endorsement....

Recently I took advantage of a "buy vol 1 and get vol 2 free" offer from Castalia House on a Friday. Saturday I opened my email to see two links to the books.

I clicked vol 1 and it downloaded, I clicked vol 2 and got the message "you have reached your download limit"..

I sent an email asking for the link to be reset, I expected to hear a reply on Monday.

But instead (on a Saturday), I received an email apologizing and asking me about the format I needed. I replied and within a few minutes received an email with vol 2 attached. (on a Saturday!)

That is the definition of good customer service.

I fear, however, that we completely failed to call him a neo-nazi or an unrepentant racist homophobe at any point in the process. Now, every company has different ideas about how to best interact with their customers, and I expect there is probably something to be said for hurling vituperative insults at people you would like to buy things from you. Precisely what that might be, I have no idea, but then, we're relatively new to the publishing game. I know we have a lot to learn.

I guess I'm just a techno-caveman. I don't understand these newfangled means of "marketing", all this flashy "social media", all these "tweets" and "follows" and "likes".

Is it a sort of Soup Nazi spin? You know, "no books for you!" Does anyone know of any market research indicating precisely what insults tend to be most effective in improving brand loyalty?

And would "buy our bad-to-reprehensible books, racist neo-nazi homophobes!" be a good place to start?

Labels: mailvox, trainwreck

210 Comments:

Lulabelle (68) June 09, 2015 11:50 AM: I think you need to up the ante on the insult. Maybe add "dipshit". That oughta do it.
buzzcut #207 June 09, 2015 11:51 AM: "Thank you for your purchase, Pederast!"
Gecko June 09, 2015 11:52 AM: Precisely what that might be, I have no idea, but then, I'm relatively new to the publishing game.

I am but a young girl and know little of the ways of war.
RF June 09, 2015 11:54 AM: I recommend doing a special sales campaign where one personalized, scurrilous lie about the customer is included with each purchase.
Salt June 09, 2015 11:57 AM: "No soup for you!" - episode 116, Seinfeld
Difster VFM #109 June 09, 2015 12:00 PM: I think you should run a banner ad campaign for CH that says how terrible your authors are and how much you hate your customers.

Use words like feral, stupid, repulsive, recidivist, flotsam, etc.
Alexander June 09, 2015 12:00 PM: Every Tor author has to pen the slander each time. You guys with an entirely online presence can automate everything, so your lack is doubly unacceptable.

Thank you for your purchase, libelous description here .
Danby June 09, 2015 12:02 PM: And would "buy our bad-to-reprehensible books, racist neo-nazi homophobes!" be a good place to start?

Yes Dark Lord. As you wish it shall be.
Alexander June 09, 2015 12:02 PM: Actually, to be fair, the SJWs believe that CH already does this*.

The books that we publish honor the traditions and intellectual authenticity exemplified by writers such as J.R.R. Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, Robert E. Howard, G.K. Chesterton, and Hermann Hesse. We are consciously providing an alternative to readers who increasingly feel alienated from the nihilistic, dogmatic science fiction and fantasy being published today. We seek nothing less than a Campbellian revolution in genre literature.

SJW 1: See! That's basically the same thing as calling all your supporters racist, sexist, homphobic, dipshits!

SJW 2: I know, right!

SJW 3: Wow... just wow.

* Or they would, if the dared to read the homepage.
Danby June 09, 2015 12:07 PM: Pale moon is refusing to load the comments at Tor.com.

Probably just as well. I may need those brain cells later.
Underwater Operative June 09, 2015 12:08 PM: I wonder if anyone has asked Ms Gallo why she makes a living working for a company that profits from publishing Authors & selling to Readers who are racist neo-nazi homophobes?
AmyJ June 09, 2015 12:08 PM: @RF

Personalized insults are too thoughtful. Most customers like to be lumped together under one big sweeping generalization. I know I certainly do!
daddynichol #126 June 09, 2015 12:16 PM: Does anyone know of any market research indicating precisely what insults tend to be most effective in improving brand loyalty?

No market research, but it seemed to work for Don Rickles and Sam Kinnison. That's about it, ya hockey puck!
Donn #0114 June 09, 2015 12:16 PM: Skip the insult and go straight to the "wow just wow".
Shibes Meadow June 09, 2015 12:23 PM: The magic word is "shitlord".
RF June 09, 2015 12:24 PM: "Personalized insults are too thoughtful. Most customers like to be lumped together under one big sweeping generalization. I know I certainly do!"

A good point, but that's where price discrimination comes in. The average Joe customer might be satisfied with a generic "nazi scum" or some such, for a couple of bucks more you get a computer generated insult based on your billing info and the deluxe level would be Vox taking a few seconds to make some stuff up. For those really wanting to go all out a campaign to make them lose their employment could be arranged.
Elocutioner0226 June 09, 2015 12:29 PM: "Personalized insults are too thoughtful. Most customers like to be lumped together under one big sweeping generalization. I know I certainly do!"

So... Vile Faceless Patrons?
Noah B #120 June 09, 2015 12:31 PM: "I fear, however, that we completely failed to call him a neo-nazi or an unrepentant racist homophobe at any point in the process."

Castalia's customers may simply lack the masochistic and suicidal tendencies inherent to the mainstream of Tor's leftist fan base.
RF June 09, 2015 12:32 PM: Off topic, but is there some list of which authors considers either rabid or sad puppies to be [racist|sexist|...]? It would useful information so that puppy supporters easily could check what authors considers them to be unacceptable. For that matter it would also be helpful to the authors to ensure that they don't accidentally receive any filthy Nazi blood money.

Even more useful would be a web site like www.doesauthorxhateme.com where you could fill in demographic information and beliefs and receive back a list authors and their opinions supported by quotes about how they feel about you.

Frankly I think this is something the SJW:s should organize themselves, but I doubt they are capable.
Difster VFM #109 June 09, 2015 12:33 PM: "If you buy a Castalia House book today, we will do an automated search of all of your internet activity and our sophisticated algorithm will pick out the most embarrassing things you've said and forward them to those most likely to ostracize you for it. For an extra charge, we'll arrange a boycott and a PR campaign targeting your employer to ensure you get fired and remain too poor to ever buy another CH book again.

Castalia House, where we hate our customers with a fire hotter than the sun."
Dan in Tx June 09, 2015 12:41 PM: Since I'm becoming more and more an unrepentant Nazi everyday, I'd like to have an actual paper book signed by the author. I'm thinking something along the lines of, "You're a real Nazi asshole" signed Vox Day.
dh June 09, 2015 12:46 PM: daddynichol--

There are at least two main schools of thought.

The first one is to find and identify champions. If you google on "marketing to brand champions", you'll find a lot about it. Basically, you find and identify people who have influence and are vocal loyalists, and convert them to be your fan. This often happens using 1-to-1 trust building activities. In person sales calls, special perks, etc. It works extremely well on women who are in a position of influence, but not necessarily power, and well on employees who are cogs in large wheels who feel somewhat undervalued, or who highly prize the influence they have.

With this method, you build up individuals, trying to find the right ones who can promote your message within a larger organization or sphere. They come de facto sales people for you. If you've ever dealt with enterprise software companies, like Microsoft or Oracle, this is their primary method. Find a person who is receptive, solve a problem for them, turn the receptor in a progenitor of your ideas within the organization, provide support for that champion, and convert to a sale when given the chance in front of people with decision making authority. You are essentially guiding your message into the hands of your champion, and hoping they are the right vessel to carry your message upwards into the organization.

This is largely the method of John Scalzi and many other contemporary popular online authors that have come of age in the internet age and built their careers this way. Having a blog where you have personal relationships with readers is a big tell. John Scalzi posting pictures of his kid from when she was little to when she wins weightlifting competitions, overly praising his wife, sharing his pets, etc are all methods of sharing information to establish a relationship. His readers are the quintessential brand champions for him. They spread the brand message up and down their own organizations - which could be friend circles, professionally, etc.

This method is really good for people who are natural self-promoters. No matter what you are selling, if you sell yourself first, the lifestyle second, the product third, you'll be in company of many others who are using this technique.

As for insults, adherents to this method of sales and marketing will tell you that any insult to the brand is an opportunity to hone and turn your brand champions onto the object of your ire. As we've all seen, JS is good at this. He's not alone, it's a classic technique. When Oracle bungled the roll out of a healthcare website online, they're brand champions sprung into action to defend them and blame others without even having to ask. Because if their brand looks bad, they look bad. Sound familiar?

(continued)
dh June 09, 2015 12:47 PM: The second method that is widely known as a method of building a loyal brand is the Amazon model. It's name has evolved, but it's essentially providing overwhelming support and service. Zappos is another brand that has it. LL Bean and Disney were both originals in this space. A lot of people don't always remember it, but there was a time where product returns, replacements, refunds, etc were just not a thing. After the time when small time marketplaces started to die out, and big box stores took over, and the before the internet made a big impact on retail, the middle to huge retailers set a customer service standard that was stunningly low, especially compared to their small time competitors. Everything becomes a hassle, but your customer comes back because of lack of alternatives, price, popularity, or advertising. I think that Castalia is going down this later model, and hopefully they can stick with it as they grow. When you think of authors like Stephen King or Robert Patterson, these are Amazon.com model authors (even if they don't like Amazon). Customers don't have a 1-to-1 relationship with the author, they aren't being influenced by individuals, they are in it for the experience of getting the product that they know they want. They don't read the dust jacket, they don't read the back, they are in Aisle 12, or at their desktop, or on their mobile, they see the brand they are loyal to, they know it will be of expected quality, or expected price, and they press 'Buy', or they put in their cart.

And that's why when Stephen King or similar author publishes a new book, it doesn't matter what the reviews are (if it's even reviewed). The brand is Stephen King, the experience is getting the book, revealing in it's quality, getting exactly what you paid for, and it will sell millions of copies. The number of millions is down to the title, the artwork, the time of year and economic conditions. But it will sell, because the brand loyalists are loyal and they love the brand.

In terms of the publishing industry, these two models set off a friction. The publishers wants to be an Amazon.com model - Tor would love nothing more than to build a brand which is "Yes, I must buy this because it's from Tor, and I love anything Tor publishes". But they don't, in my opinion, have that brand at this time. Tor.com is attempt to build it. From the authors point of view, they don't want to be part of the publishers brand, they want to be their own brand. They want champions who will sell independent of the brand. The worst insult you can make for a company in the Amazon.com mold is to say that the product didn't meet the standard of another brand, or worse, previous products from the brand. This causes loyalists to question the brand and waiver. It's like social proof.
Dexter June 09, 2015 12:49 PM: OT: Vox, have you seen LeGuin's tirade against Amazon?

http://bookviewcafe.com/blog/2015/06/01/up-the-amazon/
Aeoli Pera June 09, 2015 12:51 PM: "If you buy a Castalia House book today, we will do an automated search of all of your internet activity and our sophisticated algorithm will pick out the most embarrassing things you've said and forward them to those most likely to ostracize you for it. For an extra charge, we'll arrange a boycott and a PR campaign targeting your employer to ensure you get fired and remain too poor to ever buy another CH book again.

Castalia House, where we hate our customers with a fire hotter than the sun."

Lol, great thread so far.
VD June 09, 2015 12:57 PM: Vox, have you seen LeGuin's tirade against Amazon?

A gatekeeper's darling hates an even playing field. Quelle surprise.
Curious but not an SJW June 09, 2015 1:00 PM: "You're a real Nazi asshole" signed Vox Day.

Too late. They tell us we can no longer play the Hitler card.
Mike M. (minion #315) June 09, 2015 1:00 PM: Personally, I think Castalia House needs to offer a Suomi SMG or Sako Moisin-Nagant with every purchase. We minions may be faceless, but not helpless. :-)
Pastor June 09, 2015 1:01 PM: Isn't this just Game 101? Perhaps Tor is attempting to "neg" us. After all, a publishing house that can look its customers right in the eyes and sneer is clearly a house with options. That doesn't need our petty approval. I dunno - don't any of the rest of you suddenly feel the need to prove your worthiness to shop there?
Blue Meanie June 09, 2015 1:03 PM: If you were a dinosaur, my publisher, you would understand the Tor marketing genius.
Ron Winkleheimer June 09, 2015 1:04 PM: I'm thinking something along the lines of, "You're a real Nazi asshole" signed Vox Day.

I would pay extra for that book.
Elocutioner0226 June 09, 2015 1:05 PM: "Too late. They tell us we can no longer play the Hitler card."

Dang. Can we at least still get them bound in genuine SJW hide? (Triple ply of course as the layers are very thin.)
Dan in Tx June 09, 2015 1:05 PM: See? TWO SOLD ALREADY! Pure. Marketing. Genius.
Weouro June 09, 2015 1:06 PM: The insults they seem to prefer for themselves are "internally racist and sexist." Like the the white male masochist from Instapundit you linked to recently. Maybe they really are doing their best to drum up business.
Weouro June 09, 2015 1:07 PM: Also "weaker than a little girl" etc
darkdoc June 09, 2015 1:16 PM: I swear this is the gift that just keeps giving...if the SJW's could only see how much fun we are having!
Ras al Ghul June 09, 2015 1:20 PM: There has been some marketing research that shows being snotty to your high end customers can be beneficial for places like clothing, cars, restaurants.

And saying someone if a horrible no good person often makes that person's sales increase . . . which would make Tor possibly one of the biggest supports of Vox and his publishing house.
Markku June 09, 2015 1:21 PM: I do NOT hate our customers, and at no point have I placed our e-book files on a USB thumb drive just to be able to fart on them before sending them to you all.
Ron Winkleheimer June 09, 2015 1:23 PM: @Markku

I don't incline that way myself, but I'm thinking there are people who would pay extra for that. Just saying.
Porky June 09, 2015 1:25 PM: Welcome to Tor Books. I love you.
Welcome to Tor Books. I love you.
Welcome to Tor Books. I love you.
JC NRA June 09, 2015 1:26 PM: Vox and/or Markku:

Can you please call me an asshole? I've been waiting for that extra push before buying Van Creveld's book from you. I think a personal insult would be just what I need.
Alexander June 09, 2015 1:27 PM: I do NOT hate our customers, and at no point have I placed our e-book files on a USB thumb drive just to be able to fart on them before sending them to you all.

If you say so, your flatulency.
pdwalker June 09, 2015 1:30 PM: Clearly, you need a separate ordering page to cater to that underserved market of customers that want to be hated.
Markku June 09, 2015 1:30 PM: You don't deserve that book, asshole. If you try to give us your racist dollars, we'll just throw them back at your feet faster than Judas Iscariot.
JC NRA June 09, 2015 1:32 PM: Sold! Thanks - ordering now ...
Elocutioner0226 June 09, 2015 1:35 PM: Look, I came her for an argument. This is abuse.
Markku June 09, 2015 1:35 PM: Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of...

Oops, overselling
Porky June 09, 2015 1:36 PM: I have a customer complaint:

I bought the ebook of "Compost Everything" and I have not been insulted even once.
No "Shitlord". No "Fuckwit". Nothing. I can promise you I will not be buying the paperback version unless there is a concerted effort on your part to regain my trust.
Markku June 09, 2015 1:37 PM: If you're following the book's advice, you are quite literally a shitlord.
grendel June 09, 2015 1:40 PM: Shit, I'd pay an extra $5 for my kindle copy of AToB II to come with "Grendel you're a real nazi asshole" on the title page.
Lulabelle (68) June 09, 2015 1:44 PM: "37. Ras al Ghul June 09, 2015 1:20 PM

There has been some marketing research that shows being snotty to your high end customers can be beneficial for places like clothing, cars, restaurants."

I think you've really hit on something here......Here's the idea: upon entering the CH site, you're immediately met with a gatekeeper (bouncer, if you will) who will ask a series of questions to determine if you're worthy to shop there. Some customers would be allowed to continue, some would be kicked out, and a few would have to wait behind a virtual velvet rope - just in case no one else better shows up to shop.
Ron Winkleheimer June 09, 2015 1:46 PM: OK, I have been posting on the tor.com apology thread and I can assure you, if its insults I want from a publisher, there is no way that Castalia can beat Tor. Sorry, but that is just a fact.
Rabbi B June 09, 2015 1:46 PM: I've spent a few shekels at Castalia House.

What? Nothing playfully anti-Semitic to offer? Feeling left out, and discriminated against.

If you fail to prick us, do we not complain?
Markku June 09, 2015 1:48 PM: Judenhassen costs extra.

I know you can afford it, Jew.
maniacprovost June 09, 2015 1:49 PM: I don't get calling Vox a Nazi to begin with. Lives in Italy => Fascismo.

CH needs to have an autograph service. For an extra $X, the actual author will sign the book and personally insult you before remailing it.
Cataline Sergius June 09, 2015 1:51 PM: @Vox

Castalia is a small publishing house. As such I feel you should forget about big mass market client degradation and go for a customer outreach that feels more hand crafted and personalized to their needs.

May I suggest flaming bags of poop on their doorsteps?
Ron Winkleheimer June 09, 2015 1:51 PM: Oh, and Gallo should be celebrated because she spoke "THE TRUTH!" And everybody knows speaking "THE TRUTH!" is way more important than selling books. Also, Tor must take an "OFFICIAL STANCE!" denouncing the puppies as the secret followers of Cthulu that they are or the SJWs will boycott Tor.

I am running out of popcorn.
Alexander June 09, 2015 1:51 PM: This is what happens when you give the minions a token chance to express themselves.

Used to be you'd slave away in the underground filthpiths or the lavaforge, maybe get a chance to take off the rusted chains and stretch your arms once in a while crewing the longboats...

Then you'd go home to your perpetually-in-shadow hovel, gnaw on the bone of an SJW or draw crude pictograms in the mud to pass the time until the bell rang for the daily ration of whatever non white cis-male we were dining on that day.

Now it's ohh... Evil Lord take time out of your busy schedule to insult me personally. I'm too good for the impersonal whip of the whore-mistress. Oh, Evil Lord I'm not going to do the bidding of your publishing house without a favor in return...

Minions these days. You three digiters don't know how you've got it.

Regards,
#10
Markku June 09, 2015 1:55 PM: And, ah, thanks for that thing, Rabster. Was on a trip over the weekend, didn't have the opportunity to respond.
Porky June 09, 2015 1:56 PM: you are quite literally a shitlord.

I can get 10 times the insults of much better quality from your competitor for the same price.

Sorry. You have a fine product. It's just an economic decision for me.
CM June 09, 2015 1:59 PM: A sf/f version of the Shakespearean insult generator... a unique, randomly generated insult for each customer...
Markku June 09, 2015 2:01 PM: Tor's insults may have more flair, but you will never be the literal lord of human shit with them, Porky.
Kat June 09, 2015 2:02 PM: I think you should toss in "illiterate" as well, just for spice.

Or is that implied?
Poli_Mis June 09, 2015 2:09 PM: @Vox
You are at your best when you are being sarcastic. More, please.
Stirner June 09, 2015 2:19 PM: A insult generator integrated into the automated order notification system would be hilarious. Be sure to make it clearly optional though....
Jourdan June 09, 2015 2:20 PM: "buy our bad-to-reprehensible books, racist neo-nazi homophobes!"

I know Doherty is getting up there in years, but he's not too old to get a righteous tat with this, adorned by SS runes.
maniacprovost June 09, 2015 2:23 PM: You are at your best when you are being sarcastic. More, please.

Wait your turn, you queue-Nazi!
genericviews June 09, 2015 2:25 PM: I believe that threatening to never sleep with them is the customary opening response.
Harsh June 09, 2015 2:27 PM: Do I have to make a purchase to get insulted?
Aeoli Pera June 09, 2015 2:30 PM: A sf/f version of the Shakespearean insult generator... a unique, randomly generated insult for each customer...,

Is it too late to add these to the Hugo packets? That would be epic.

I'm imagining the front page of each packet emblazoned with "Thou warped sheep-biting foot-licker!" and post-scripted with "Buy a Castalia House book in the next two weeks and receive free personalized insults from the editor, the publisher, and your favorite authors!"
Rabbi B June 09, 2015 2:30 PM: "Do I have to make a purchase to get insulted?"

Promotional insults?
ajw308 (#98) June 09, 2015 2:31 PM: Personally, I think Castalia House needs to offer a Suomi SMG or Sako Moisin-Nagant with every purchase.
That's the M-39. Just don't try to find a bayonete for it, The Finn's didn't Issue them. They preferred to knife the Russians when things went hand-to-hand. I think Bane would have appreciated that.
Aeoli Pera June 09, 2015 2:31 PM: "...you damned, dirty, regressive neo-Nazi!"
Rabbi B June 09, 2015 2:32 PM: "A sf/f version of the Shakespearean insult generator . . ."

Also makes you feel educated and cultured while being insulted . . . a win-win.
Laz June 09, 2015 2:33 PM: Was looking at Tor and came across "fractal wrongness". Never knew we were fractally wrong... whatever that means.
Markku June 09, 2015 2:36 PM: Fractal wrongness is obviously the human version of the Mandelbug
CM June 09, 2015 2:36 PM: "fractal wrongness"

Do they even know what a fractal is? I mean, outside of "Let it Go"*?

*I have a 3 yo girl... so yes, I know all the words...
automatthew June 09, 2015 2:37 PM: Laz, it means we're as bad as PHP.
LP 999/Eliza June 09, 2015 2:43 PM: Of course CH is superior customer service, it is managed by super intel men who take the time to assist and help others.

WHY? Rhetorical...

CH is a class act.
LP 999/Eliza June 09, 2015 2:47 PM: This comment has been removed by the author.
Cail Corishev June 09, 2015 2:48 PM: Laz, it means we're as bad as PHP.

Please, there's no need for swearing about it.
CM June 09, 2015 2:49 PM: Automatthew -

I didn't read the whole thing, but the first 3 points make the insult sound like... projection?

From the very first one... poorly formed tools that don't work right... lol
Markku June 09, 2015 2:52 PM: CM, our comments were programmer humor. Assuming it's not just typo'd "factual wrongness", it means the kind of wrongness where, everywhere you look, you find new ways it's wrong.
Scintan June 09, 2015 2:54 PM: OT: Vox, have you seen LeGuin's tirade against Amazon?

Interestingly, she got pummeled in the comments and then walked her position back a bit:

"Many thanks to the many thoughtful people who took the trouble to explain to me where and how my understanding of Amazon’s role in the book business is faulty.
I can’t agree with the scenario in which publishers are villains and Amazon the hero, but I’d have done better to speak of Amazon as just a super-manifestation of the growth-capitalism mentality that increasingly controls the big corporation-owned publishers, subjecting the autonomy of editors (and therefore writers) to the dictates of Accounting."
Russell (106) June 09, 2015 2:57 PM: @automatthew: Laz, it means we're as bad as PHP.

You go too far, sir. Too far indeed.
Scintan June 09, 2015 3:06 PM: ICH could 'imprint' a randomly generated insult inside the front cover of all published works, especially print versions. If the capability exists, that insult could even be tailored to specific account holders and their preferences. Naturally, that would require a questionnaire in order to ascertain the most preferable insults for the individual, but what's privacy in this day and age?

CH: "The Despair.com of the publishing world"
Shut up rabbit June 09, 2015 3:09 PM: Damn, I really need a dead tree CH book before #GGinParis so VD can scrawl "Fuck you, you literal Nazi!" on it. Or maybe he can be convinced to throw acid on my Kindle?
Giuseppe June 09, 2015 3:13 PM: Judenhassen costs extra.

I know you can afford it, Jew.

That is why I love the ilk. Made-to-order anti-semitism at the request of a Jew. Basically this thread should be a test for when we take over. Anyone who can't see the humour in it and laugh alongside the Jew who started that particular little response, should be shipped out to an Island, and never, ever allowed to leave it again.
I am thinking something off the Scottish coast.
Shimshon June 09, 2015 3:15 PM: Vox can insult in no less than six impossible ways...before breakfast.
Lulabelle (68) June 09, 2015 3:17 PM: How horrible. The ilk attacking a JEW! I. Can't. Even. There's no place in society for the ilk. It's not funny. It's.......it's......*cries*

Now........" should be shipped out to an Island, and never, ever allowed to leave it again. "

I'll take someplace tropical. Thank you.
Dexter June 09, 2015 3:17 PM: @Scintan,

So now she's doing a bad imitation of Alec Baldwin in Team America.

"You see, the corporations finance publishing. And then Amazon goes out, and the corporations sit there in their... corporation buildings, and, see, they're all corporation-y, and they make money."

Oy vey.
Harsh June 09, 2015 3:18 PM: I can’t agree with the scenario in which publishers are villains and Amazon the hero, but I’d have done better to speak of Amazon as just a super-manifestation of the growth-capitalism mentality that increasingly controls the big corporation-owned publishers, subjecting the autonomy of editors (and therefore writers) to the dictates of Accounting.

Well, she has her liberal doublespeak down pat at any rate.
Shut up rabbit June 09, 2015 3:19 PM: @Giuseppe No effing way - somewhere in the Tyrrhenian will do fine, thank you.
Markku June 09, 2015 3:22 PM: I am thinking something off the Scottish coast.

Isle of Man.
Giuseppe June 09, 2015 3:23 PM: I'll take someplace tropical. Thank you.
Did you think you would have a choice?
That IS funny.
And something off the Scottish coast is actually not as bad as what sjw deserve, which is actually a largish chunk of ice that breaks off from the main body of the Arctic and floats about for a bit before melting back down to water.
Scintan June 09, 2015 3:24 PM: So now she's doing a bad imitation of Alec Baldwin in Team America.

"You see, the corporations finance publishing. And then Amazon goes out, and the corporations sit there in their... corporation buildings, and, see, they're all corporation-y, and they make money."

I actually agree with the notion that the increased corporate greed we've seen since the 80's has been very bad for people overall. I don't know that there's a solution, however, as it's really a case of large corporations squeezing out the "We'll make enough money plus a little more, but we don't need to squeeze out every dollar or sell our souls" mom & pops and forcing them to become junior versions of the big guys, and there's not going to be any going back, at least in most areas of business.
Alexander June 09, 2015 3:25 PM: I am thinking something off the Scottish coast.

Thus giving rise to a new breed, the Shetland moanies.
Dr. J June 09, 2015 3:26 PM: @CMDo they even know what a fractal is? I mean, outside of "Let it Go"*?

*I have a 3 yo girl... so yes, I know all the words...

Many of us can sympathesize. But it's a widely known fact - I believe frozen won the award for best use of a mathematical term in an animated feature/show tune medley/documentary. Barely beat out "Brownian motion and you."
Porky June 09, 2015 3:28 PM: Tor's insults may have more flair, but you will never be the literal lord of human shit with them, Porky.

Sorry, Markku, but I already bought the Tor paperback entitled "Compost Everything Or Else You Hate The Earth: Why Only A NeoNazi Global Warming Denialist Asshole Would Not Compost."
Giuseppe June 09, 2015 3:29 PM: Thus giving rise to a new breed, the Shetland moanies

bwahahahah
Dr. J June 09, 2015 3:32 PM: And what the hell is a neo-Nazi anyway? Are there old-school Nazi's out there, still pining for the days of the Reich? Do the Neo's have fundamental policy differences with those guys, like the difference between neo-cons and conservatives? Or is it just another reflexive term the SJWs use to outgroup people who disagree with them?

I mean, I've never heard of a neo-communist. Or is that just the Green party.?
Danby June 09, 2015 3:36 PM: And what the hell is a neo-Nazi anyway?

Any white man that won't get with the program and die.
CarpeOro (#105) June 09, 2015 3:37 PM: "There has been some marketing research that shows being snotty to your high end customers can be beneficial for places like clothing, cars, restaurants."

So maybe the insults come into play when they come out with the tshirts that have "SJW delende est" on them.
MendoScot June 09, 2015 3:37 PM: Judenhassen costs extra.

I know you can afford it, Jew.

Then he can pay for mine as well.
Kel-Tec PF9 June 09, 2015 3:43 PM: Dr. J, the difference between neo and old skool National Socialists is that the Old skool tattood their enemies, while the neos tattoo themselves.
Mr.MantraMan June 09, 2015 3:47 PM: Harold Covington can be a decent writer I think Gallo should open her mind to his work and sign him. I'll bet he sells more than many Tor writers to boot. Then they can say that they truly are equal opportunity
Ron Winkleheimer June 09, 2015 3:55 PM: Dr. J, the difference between neo and old skool National Socialists is that the Old skool tattood their enemies, while the neos tattoo themselves.

Also, the old skool, thanks to Hugo Boss, dressed better. And they had big rockets.
Rabbi B June 09, 2015 4:06 PM: "Then he can pay for mine as well."

http://www.juf.org/uploadedImages/JUForg/News/Blogs/Don%E2%80%99t_call_me_yenta/cat.jpg?n=2431
maniacprovost June 09, 2015 4:16 PM: And something off the Scottish coast is actually not as bad as what sjw deserve, which is actually a largish chunk of ice that breaks off from the main body of the Arctic and floats about for a bit before melting back down to water.

I'm sure you're aware, but in some cultures, useless people voluntarily float out on the ice to die. It's sad, but at least they have more dignity than the Pinks.
CM June 09, 2015 4:27 PM: I believe frozen won the award for best use of a mathematical term in an animated feature/show tune medley/documentary.

I didn't know that existed. It has been my favorite part of the song since I first heard it, but didn't know it was such a big deal.

Markku - never heard the word used like that, but it makes sense in retrospect.
Feather Blade June 09, 2015 4:32 PM: I am thinking something off the Scottish coast.

What did the Scottish coast ever do to you?
Alexander June 09, 2015 4:35 PM: Ha, nice try! But I know for a fact that the Scottish Coast has never given us sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health!
Daniel June 09, 2015 4:42 PM: The Torling School of Faustian Economics vs. Malwyn's Skuul of Hard Knockers
Hong Hu Shi #0050 June 09, 2015 4:47 PM: "Are you Tor Insult ready?" on New York subways...
Heh June 09, 2015 5:07 PM: I am thinking something off the Scottish coast.

What did the Scottish coast ever do to you?

No doubt he had Gruinard in mind.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gruinard_Island#Biological_warfare_testing
daddynichol #126 June 09, 2015 5:10 PM: Damn funny thread right there, I'm telling you.
Steveo #238 June 09, 2015 5:25 PM: On to Torr... (not Tor/Forge at all, but some mythical nasty place called a different name, Torr), keeping your eyes on all things you can see, your knife hand free as you listen for what you can't see; even to the quiet. Listening in Torr keeps you alive; for moving in the shadows are fraudulent shadows, with enough substance for the wary to cut and escape, but only heard in the attack as a scratchy hissing. Sssssssssssjjhhhaaaaayyyyw, maybe the last noticeable thing heard as the sharp, chilled violence attaches, taking. Taking all from you that lives, creates, and enjoys. What once, long ago was human but now captured and transformed into something not human, something turned back to hard, slime covered scales covering trunk-like limbs of rotund reptilian haters of true life - then rendered to near shadows possessed of one vacuous thought - take! From others, substance lost once or never valued. Take! Take the lessers to the shadows of Torr.

But hey bro, this lesser be boycottin - yo
SS June 09, 2015 5:44 PM: I purchased a dead tree copy of "Compost Everything" yesterday. If it doesn't arrive with insults directed at me personally inscribed, I will be sorely disappointed. That's what publishing houses do now, right?
Book Girl June 09, 2015 5:48 PM: I have bought several books from Castalia. I have yet to be denigrated or insulted. Therefore, as a woman, I can only conclude you are being sexist and treating me differently since I'm a woman. I'm totally miffed now. Totally.
Markku June 09, 2015 5:57 PM: I'm totally miffed now.

Insulted, perhaps?
maniacprovost June 09, 2015 6:02 PM: I purchased a dead tree copy of "Compost Everything" yesterday.

Sorry to tell you, but some of his methods stink.
Steve June 09, 2015 6:04 PM: I've bought Castalia House books via Amazon Kindle.

If there was some way I could buy them direct from you chaps and put them on my Kindle - without needing a PhD in rocket surgery - I'd be happy to put more accursed blood money into the Evil Treasury of Evil.

Book Girl - I have yet to be denigrated or insulted. Therefore, as a woman, I can only conclude you are being sexist

You have pointy elbows and the strange, elfin look of a Finn. The musical beat combos I like are superior to the popular musicians you favour. In addition, I suspect my cat is more beautiful and mysterious than any pets you may or may not own.
Markku June 09, 2015 6:05 PM: Steve: Purchase the book, download the .mobi -link, use these instructions: http://www.amazon.com/gp/sendtokindle/email
SS June 09, 2015 6:07 PM: Sorry to tell you, but some of his methods stink.

I would expect nothing less.
Steve June 09, 2015 6:10 PM: Markku - Thank you. I had no idea it was that easy. Bookmarked for future purchases.
FP June 09, 2015 6:14 PM: "Welcome to Tor Books. I love you."

Insultoh, its got the electrolytes customers crave.
Elocutioner0226 June 09, 2015 6:17 PM: Wherein the former SFWA Vice President weighs in:

"The fact that you are now defending the Sad Puppies campaign, even implicitly, and apologizing to them for being offended is really distressing. It implies things about the priorities of Tor that I find uncomfortable and would very much like to be wrong about. At the moment though, I feel as though the safety of women authors, and authors of color is less important to the company than the feelings of those who attack them."

I wonder how her vote-buying campaign is coming along.

http://www.tor.com/2015/06/08/a-message-from-tom-doherty-to-our-readers-and-authors/comment-page-2/#comment-526477
RobertT June 09, 2015 6:25 PM: Superior sales & distribution By itself can create a monopoly even with no product differentiation. The converse is not true. Peter Theil.
Harsh June 09, 2015 6:34 PM: "The fact that you are now defending the Sad Puppies campaign, even implicitly, and apologizing to them for being offended is really distressing. It implies things about the priorities of Tor that I find uncomfortable and would very much like to be wrong about. At the moment though, I feel as though the safety of women authors, and authors of color is less important to the company than the feelings of those who attack them.".

TL;DR Scary Puppies!
Harsh June 09, 2015 6:34 PM: "Welcome to Tor Books. I love you."

Insultoh, its got the electrolytes customers crave.

Do you even know what electrolytes are?
Daniel June 09, 2015 6:41 PM: We don't care and so can Tor!
Danby June 09, 2015 6:45 PM: Safety, you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Kat June 09, 2015 6:53 PM: I think you should toss in "illiterate" as well, just for spice.

Or is that implied?
BigGaySteve June 09, 2015 7:06 PM: homophobe- noun; someone who hates gay men almost as much as gay men hate their ex boyfriends.

If you where a dying dinosaur trying to bite at your best working parts and insulting the people that feed you green stuff my love.

if the SJW's could only see how much fun we are having!

Cause and effect are lost on them. Just like they didn't understand what the Mike Brown liquor store beat down of an Asian clerk & the "hands up" witnesses participating in the robbery had to do with him being shot for no reason 10 min later, the same people don't see how the 100+ blacks jumping the fence at the HOA's private pool mattered to them being arrested.

"Thank you for your purchase, Pederast!" I should tell you that those who advocate for lowing the age of consent have no shame. Do you think Clinton would avoid Epstein island just because people knew what he did there?
Kat June 09, 2015 7:18 PM: Sorry for the double post. Not sure what happened.
Quartermaster June 09, 2015 7:19 PM: "I fear, however, that we completely failed to call him a neo-nazi or an unrepentant racist homophobe at any point in the process."

How sad! I guess I'll have to go to Tor to get the treatment I expect.
Laz June 09, 2015 7:28 PM: "Do you even know what electrolytes are?"

They're what the body needs.
Donn #0114 June 09, 2015 7:34 PM: Totally miffed, I read that as "totally muffed" I was trying and failing to imagine what that condition was like.
Cail Corishev June 09, 2015 7:45 PM: "The fact that you are now defending the Sad Puppies campaign, even implicitly, and apologizing to them for being offended is really distressing."

It's fun to watch the SJWs trying to force their friends at Tor to hold the course, even if it means sacrificing their own livelihoods for the cause. No honor among thieves.
Ron Winkleheimer June 09, 2015 7:53 PM: "It's fun to watch the SJWs trying to force their friends at Tor to hold the course, even if it means sacrificing their own livelihoods for the cause. No honor among thieves."

Its no wonder why they are so frantic about the collapse of publishing houses and the resulting loss of gatekeeper status. You can only get away with this sort of thing if you control access to the market.
Harsh June 09, 2015 8:00 PM: Totally miffed, I read that as "totally muffed" I was trying and failing to imagine what that condition was like.

It's a common complaint among lesbians.
cam3709 June 09, 2015 8:19 PM: "Welcome to Tor Books. I love you.
Welcome to Tor Books. I love you.
Welcome to Tor Books. I love you." - Porky

For some odd reason I think it'd be more like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojf3BMLbcss&feature=youtu.be&t=4s
Beau June 09, 2015 8:26 PM: Today I was called naïve and compared to Hitler. I was also approached by a man previously considered hardened, resistant, and "too cool for school" who wanted instruction in Jesus' beatitudes.
Banjo June 09, 2015 8:39 PM: Markku wins the thread for making me laugh out loud. Twice
Giuseppe June 09, 2015 9:01 PM: Are there old-school Nazi's out there, still pining for the days of the Reich?

Actually, the puppet "government " of Ukraine in Kiev. Their first VP (I think he was VP, maybe just minister of propaganda, not sure) read speeches of Goebbles at rally parties.

Harsh,
You beat me to it. Good to know even among the ilk we have a few of us conversant in lesbian conversion.

Alexander,
Re Scottish coast and technology...it will be good for the SJWs to live on a rocky outcrop of the mainland where the nettles are waist high and the men wear skirts. Put a bit of hair on their chests. Even if that will only be on the "women" among them.

The rest of the ilk,
Thank you all for making this the last unsafe space on the Internet. The only place where butch fags argue with Greek Southrons about the pinkness of the (gay) 9mm handgun more vehemently than they do about sodomy. The only place where Jews make jokes about standing in line to get a tattoo. Where women tell men they are happy to get sir a sammich either before or after performing sexually for said sir, because it pleases them to.do.so.
Where manly men also understand that while sometimes you have to lead, other times you have to follow. Because good cosmonauts know, to survive in space, it's best to let the best man for a given task do that job and lead the other men around in the doing of it. Regardless of rank.

May our Evil ways spread and contaminate the Earth.
Giuseppe June 09, 2015 9:06 PM: St. Beau,
God bless you sir.
I hope you know you are an example who inspires many who would otherwise ignore Christianity, to actually look into it. You do that by simply walking your talk. I wish you lived close enough for me to observe firsthand.
Scintan June 09, 2015 9:11 PM: "The fact that you are now defending the Sad Puppies campaign, even implicitly, and apologizing to them for being offended is really distressing. It implies things about the priorities of Tor that I find uncomfortable and would very much like to be wrong about. At the moment though, I feel as though the safety of women authors, and authors of color is less important to the company than the feelings of those who attack them."

She's summing up the definitive SJW:

She knows, to 100% certainty, that Gallo was wrong to post what she did, yet she's still trying to twist an almost non-rebuke rebuke of that one person into a threat to women and minority writers in general.

Why? Because she's brain damaged
Elocutioner0226 June 09, 2015 9:20 PM: "194. zagrobelny Tue Jun 9, 2015 11:12am 14 Favorites [+]
Way to throw your employee under the bus. What an exercise in cowardice. "

That thread is an object lesson in rabbit in-grouping and signaling versus people who value truth and honor. The sane versus the insane. The merit of the claim is dismissed and everything else is tu qouque and disqualify.
MendoScot June 09, 2015 9:22 PM: No Tom Doherty wins the thread, for serving us up a feast of butthurt and feelbad the likes of which even Peter Mandelson has never seen.
zen0 June 09, 2015 9:31 PM: > "The fact that you are now defending the Sad Puppies campaign, even implicitly, and apologizing to them for being offended is really distressing

Moderates in a squeze play.

Awkward.
SirHamster (#201) June 09, 2015 9:32 PM: Steve: Purchase the book, download the .mobi -link, use these instructions: http://www.amazon.com/gp/sendtokindle/email

If you don't mind installing the extra program, I find the Send to Kindle PC program even more convenient. Now you can just right click the file and use the context menu, instead of bringing up your email and so on.

Other alternatives here.
eharmonica June 09, 2015 9:33 PM: In re kindle: there's also a handy Amazon Send-To-Kindle app. Right-click a file and send it.

Also Firefox has a Send-to-kindle add-on. Go to a page, click the kindle logo on your toolbar, and it sends that page to your kindle. Great for free stories.
BigGaySteve June 09, 2015 9:46 PM: The only place where butch fags argue with Greek Southrons about the pinkness of the (gay) 9mm handgun more vehemently than they do about sodomy.

Nate did have a point that I don't love dick more than GRRM loves Pringles since I can manage with just one.
Jack Ward June 09, 2015 10:15 PM: Some OT here. In the Campbell packet for Best New Author Rolf Nelson is not there. Was he disallowed or did he withdraw?
REG June 09, 2015 10:16 PM: I put up my forty; but, so far have only read one story. That link to 707 or whatever, is better than a Robert Aspirin 'Phule' story. I've got a five year old great-granddaugher that doesn't get that many feel-bads those so called ground ups do.
Giuseppe June 09, 2015 10:27 PM: BGS,
You're a truly interesting individual.
I think a conversation with you should form part of a brainstorm session.
The ability to ask non-pc questions and receive straight answers from what is normally considered a "protected class" is invaluable. Probably because I don't really know or associate with gay men, it is a process I have been limited to having with black friends, various shades of non-white people from many cultures, a few lesbians, and the occassional Jew. Invariably the process is enlightening for both sides and we tend to leave the conversation with an increased mutual respect from both sides.

Many of the ilk may well dry-heave at the idea, but I for one, being curious about many things, including the human brain, emotions and how it ties up to God's plan etc, would truly welcome the prospect of asking you certain questions about your homosexuality.
Elocutioner0226 June 09, 2015 10:34 PM: One of the "dismiss" arguments is that Vox sat on this link for almost a month, so the timing is cynical. As if that somehow excuses what she said on her publicly available Facebook page that she extensively uses to promote her work at Tor.

Put another way - the Creative Director for Tor issued the libel on May 11 and for three weeks NOT A SINGLE PERSON AT TOR BATTED AN EYE.
Aslan's Mane June 09, 2015 10:39 PM: John C. Wright has forgiven them. I happen to agree with John. It is unChristian to keep this up, and ungentlemanly. You all should be ashamed. Let it go.
Elocutioner0226 June 09, 2015 10:48 PM: Well I happen to disagree with John and have yet to see an earnest apology nor a scintilla of contriteness. So, no.
PaulR June 09, 2015 10:48 PM: "You're a complete jerk, a real kneebiter."
Rabbi B June 09, 2015 10:59 PM: "It is unChristian to keep this up . . ."

Well then, I thank G-d I'm Jewish. Pass the ammo . . .
Dr. J June 09, 2015 11:00 PM: John C. Wright has forgiven them. I happen to agree with John. It is unChristian to keep this up, and ungentlemanly. You all should be ashamed. Let it go.

No. Your type had your chance. The moderate conservatives have given us nothing but 2 decades of lost ground. The way is now lit. First Chick-Fil-E and Duck Dynasty proved that our turf could be successfully defended.

Now a tiny beachhead has been established on SJW territory, and people like you shout "surrender." No sir, you should be ashamed of your cowardice. It is un-Christian to see a culture descending into depravity and stand by idly. I'll type the Rapid puppies over your dim light any day.
Dexter June 09, 2015 11:09 PM: "Aslan's mane", get bent, SJW concern troll.
The other robot June 09, 2015 11:11 PM: Heh, I wonder what File770 will have to say tonight?
maniacprovost June 09, 2015 11:12 PM: John C. Wright has forgiven them. ... Let it go.

You can forgive someone, and let them get away with no consequences, if they are no longer a danger to society. Otherwise, you must lead them onto the right path with exhortations, societal disapproval, or total war.
The other robot June 09, 2015 11:14 PM: We need Congressional Scrutiny of Tor, it seems.
Scintan June 09, 2015 11:20 PM: John C. Wright has forgiven them. I happen to agree with John. It is unChristian to keep this up, and ungentlemanly. You all should be ashamed. Let it go.

Please explain how it is:

A.) UnChristian
B.) Ungentlemanly
SirHamster (#201) June 09, 2015 11:20 PM: It is unChristian to keep this up, and ungentlemanly.

We have gentlemen here? Fascinating. Ser Faceless Minion does have a certain ring to it.
Harsh June 09, 2015 11:20 PM: John C. Wright has forgiven them. I happen to agree with John. It is unChristian to keep this up, and ungentlemanly. You all should be ashamed. Let it go.

Shut up, moron. You're not part of the equation.
Donn #0114 June 09, 2015 11:21 PM: Aslan - John Wright as much as I respect him does not have the right to accept an apology for me. I was called a neo-nazi, racist, etc. Gallo did not apologize to me for lying about me. She can apologize by resigning best option.
Viidad June 09, 2015 11:25 PM: @ Aslan's Mane

Unlike Aslan, you're a pussy. Get out of the way and let real men fight.
Silly but True June 09, 2015 11:29 PM: We all make statements in our own way. I support exceptional customer service, and I find such outright disdain for me from a publisher that I've probably spent upwards of $150-$200 a year on average for three decades straight, literally 30 years and a few, to be intolerable.

I just placed an order for good quality science fiction from a publisher who will appreciate it: Riding the Red Horse and There Will Be War Vol's. I and II.

Vox or Markku can confirm I'm sure.

Let me say this. I have a budget to spend on science fiction and fantasy books each year. That will be spent. In the short term, it will not be spent at Tor while my disgust wears off.
eharmonica June 09, 2015 11:36 PM: That LeGuin link astonished me. She is really clueless about Amazon and life.

I remember a few years ago when Norman Spinrad was wondering if it was worth his while to make ebooks of his novels. He even asked for help in doing so.

Well, guess whose books are available on Amazon in ebook? Spinrad.

Even notoriously picky Harlan Ellison has almost his complete catalog on Amazon available in ebook -- even for free via Unlimited.
HickoryHammer #0211 June 10, 2015 12:00 AM: 157. Anonymous Aslan's Mane June 09, 2015 10:39 PM
John C. Wright has forgiven them. I happen to agree with John. It is unChristian to keep this up, and ungentlemanly. You all should be ashamed. Let it go.

hahahahahahahahhahahahahahaha
*rereads*
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
David June 10, 2015 12:21 AM: Markku, why not make it even easier for Kindle customers? Let us create a user account on castaliahouse.com, fill in our kindle's email address and then new purchases could be sent directly to our kindle.
automatthew June 10, 2015 12:22 AM: "Aslan's Mane" is probably the troll previously known as "Obvious".

Identification unsure, because this guy is taking certain steps to avoid detection.
maniacprovost June 10, 2015 12:26 AM: You wouldn't have to identify trolls if your responses to them were so stultifyingly boring that they left after being rebutted.
Not-So-Merry zen0 June 10, 2015 12:30 AM: John C. Wright has forgiven them.

It is well within his right to do so, as he speaks for himself, like a gentlemen, but not the whole class of people that were maligned, and nor does he presume so, I am sure, so it is presumptuous of yourself, Asian's Mane, to so extrapolate his example to be prescriptive for every aggrieved individual.

Que?
zen0 June 10, 2015 12:38 AM: @ 150 zen0

Moderates in a squeze play.

Awkward.

Look for an attempt by moderates to reach compromises. Next step.
This is different than one side trying to subvert moderates on the other.
At this stage the politicos seek to ameliorate the friction and avoid a decisive battle, because it will not be controlled.

They fear decision bcz teh consequences will never be the same.
automatthew June 10, 2015 12:47 AM: maniacprovost: "You wouldn't have to identify trolls if your responses to them were so stultifyingly boring that they left after being rebutted."

Yes. Spread the word. There's got to be a catchy phrase by which we can express this concept.
Alexander June 10, 2015 1:01 AM: Translation: CHRISTIANS, SHUT UP AND DIE LIKE YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO! WARGARBRGLLLL
Shut up rabbit June 10, 2015 1:07 AM: @ 122. Steve If you plan on embracing the eBook, Calibre is a free "library" program which syncs easily with most eReaders including the Kindle.
Jim June 10, 2015 1:32 AM: John C. Wright has forgiven them. I happen to agree with John. It is unChristian to keep this up, and ungentlemanly. You all should be ashamed. Let it go.

John C. Wright has forgiven Gallo in the same spirit Gallo has apologized. If you missed that, then methinks Mr. Wright's prose is a bit over your head.
IM2L844 June 10, 2015 1:33 AM: Best thread this year. A couple hundred more posts and a good playwright could transpose this thing into a stage presentation and make a killing - call it Robert Swope's Revenge. Both entertaining and instructive. Kudos all around.
Danby June 10, 2015 2:02 AM: maniacprovost: "You wouldn't have to identify trolls if your responses to them were so stultifyingly boring that they left after being rebutted."

Yes. Spread the word. There's got to be a catchy phrase by which we can express this concept.

I suggest "Shut Up Tad."
malcolmthecynic June 10, 2015 2:22 AM: I'm not sure what apology Mr. Wright is accepting. He himself said that his feelings aren't hurt; given that he has another publisher, I fail to see how his career has been hurt in any way.

Mr. Wright hasn't been hurt. Irene Gallo only apologized to those she hurt. She did not apologize for acting unprofessionally, nor did she apologize for her insults or libel.

Mr. Wright never got an apology to accept.
Forrest Bishop VFM #0167 June 10, 2015 2:27 AM: Assertion: John C. Wright has forgiven them. I happen to agree with John. It is unChristian to keep this up, and ungentlemanly. You all should be ashamed. Let it go.

Reply: John C. Wright has forgiven Gallo in the same spirit Gallo has apologized. If you missed that, then methinks Mr. Wright's prose is a bit over your head.

"My personal honor is satisfied.

"I do not need any further words from her, nor does she owe me anything more. I look forward to working with whomever Mr Doherty hires to replace her.

"I, for one, will regret the event, since a woman of such superlative skill will be hard to replace, but I am confident that Mr Doherty will not insist on keeping her at her tasks in the face of her own shame and regret.

"How could she, in good conscience, design a book cover for authors she has so bitterly, absurdly and erratically libeled, and proffer it to book buyers for whom she equally has shone such scorn and mind-destroying hate? It would be cruel of him to insist on her continuing to labor under such adverse and unhappy conditions." -John Wright http://www.scifiwright.com

He has indeed accepted Gallo's apology, forgiven her, and by implication wishes her well in her new occupation, whatever that might be.

===========

This thread is awesome.
ScuzzaMan June 10, 2015 2:32 AM: Can we start calling this "The War Against The ChTor" now?
John Wright June 10, 2015 3:06 AM: "John C. Wright has forgiven Gallo in the same spirit Gallo has apologized. If you missed that, then methinks Mr. Wright's prose is a bit over your head."

Jim, I am dedicating my next book to you.

After overhearing an idiot named Sandofer (or something) read a paragraph from a story of mine, and then spend a half an hour decrying it for saying the EXACT OPPOSITE of what I said, I was beginning to think no one understands what I write. Maybe it is the dependent clauses and run-on sentences.

I will explain.

Irene Gallo issued a meaningless insult she did not mean. She did it as a matter of pure form, a signal to the rabbit warren.

She issued an equally meaningless apology she did not mean.

I accepted that in the same spirit, with an equally meaningless acceptance, merely a matter of form. I have no more cause of action against her for the harm done me personally.

My reasons were threefold:

1. I did my part. If you do not accept apologies, none will be offered you.

2. A gentleman always accepts an apology, sincere or insincere, since then his conscience is clean; I can face God on judgment day.

The person who offered the insincere apology gets flung into hell as a liar, since (as we are quite reliably told) no liar, nor sorcerer, no sodomite, not even the ones we like, get into the Kingdom of God.

Once in hell, the damned soul screams forever, tormented by the sight of the face of the Devil, and the faces of the damned slowly become like the face of the Devil, a horror too great to look upon or imagine.

Even if I slapped my enemy with a glove, ran him through the brisket with my snickersnee, or turned him over to the Chinese torturers to have the rat cage strapped to his face, the damage I could do is finite. The damage God can do is infinite. I leave all vengeance in His hands.

On the other hand, if the apology is sincere, despite the appearances otherwise, God knows it, and I am not harboring wrath falsely.

How much vengeance do you think I want to retaliate for the babbling of a undisciplined mind? I am not Irene Gallo's mother. I do not care what she is really thinking or what it is her heart.

I do not want Irene Gallo blubbering over my shoes in humiliating tears. I am not a Leftist. I want my foes to keep their dignity.

I am not her father confessor. I do not know why she said what she said, nor do I know what problems, personal, psychological, or otherwise, warped her thinking, or how she lost the desire to speak the truth.

I cannot think of any punishment worse than that: to have your brain infected by a political philosophy that tells you truth is not beautiful.

PC tells you that truth not sublime, not divine, not shining, not wonderful, but ugly and useless to the Cause. Truth something to be avoided.

That is her world. She is a slave in an empire of lies. She forged the chains herself and locked them on. It is already closer to hell than I can imagine.

I did not write the rules on how gentlemen behave; I just obey them.

I did not make up the rule about turning the other cheek. I cannot understand such a rule or what good it serves, because I am a cruel and empty man, blind in my heart and delighted with my sins. I just do as I am told because I love the one whose commandments I follow. I am sick. I obey the doctor. I am a Gollum. But I swore to follow the master of a precious thing more precious than The Precioussss. But the ring still eats away at my mind. Do you think I have time to think on Irene Gallo's sins? I have my own to worry about.

3. I do not care. I am a Vulcan, or might as well be. Emotions do not matter to me.

To be continued.
John Wright June 10, 2015 3:06 AM: Continued from above:

As for the many, many, many other people insulted by her words and insulted by her non-apology, I look forward to losing money to a Tor boycott, which I expect to be successful, if you write.

Write today. Now. Immediately.

I do not have an emotional relationship with money, either. I do not want my readers, whom I love, to tolerate insults done them.

I love my readers because they have given me the best job in the world: to make up daydreams for pay.

But I do not do it for the pay, no more than a soldier gets wounded to win the Purple Heart. He gets the reward; that is not his motive.

I do not want my readers to give their book-buying money to a publishing house that houses their enemy who hates and slanders them.

My readers deserve better.

I did not accept the apology for anyone other than that one soul in whose name I have authority to speak, namely, mine.

Irene Gallo has apologized; I have accepted the apology.

When she tenders her resignation, I will regret the loss of so skilled and able a team mate, and will work with whomever replaces her.

I was not accepting the apology instead of a resignation.

She does not work for me; she works for you, the book buying public. Accepting the apology means she need not speak to me any further. She and I are quits; even. Irene Gallo owes me no more words.

It does not mean she gets to keep her job.

That is something the bookbuying public gets to decide.
kleinverzet001 June 10, 2015 3:35 AM: Mr. Wright, I stand in awe observing the magnificent example of conduct you provide.
Beau June 10, 2015 3:39 AM: ..unchristian..?

Jesus used a whip. He was not gentle with those who turned his house into a den of thieves. He insulted those who denied the truth. He fixed his gaze in anger - in a synagogue on the Sabbath - towards men who despised healing. He publically humiliated hypocrites. You mistake love for hate, and likewise hate for love.
Marston June 10, 2015 4:11 AM: I doxxed Vox. heh.
black knight June 10, 2015 6:39 AM: "I do not want Irene Gallo blubbering over my shoes in humiliating tears. I am not a Leftist. I want my foes to keep their dignity"

....how's that worked the last 100 years?

see ya in the gulag, i guess.
Feh June 10, 2015 7:25 AM: Wright is so good at the graceful loser thing, he should be the next GOP candidate for President.
Elocutioner0226 June 10, 2015 8:13 AM: Mr. Wright, thank you for clarifying that. I obviously read your initial response far too casually which is why it was nagging me. As always, your writing is instructive.
bob k. mando June 10, 2015 9:22 AM: 24. Dexter June 09, 2015 12:49 PM
have you seen LeGuin's tirade against Amazon?

"Best Seller lists are generated by obscure processes, which I consider (perhaps wrongly) to consist largely of smoke, mirrors, hokum, and the profit motive."

because, as with all Cultural Marxists, Le Guin considers the profit motive to be an epithet.

53. Rabbi B June 09, 2015 1:46 PM
If you fail to prick us, do we not complain?

you're Jewish. you'll complain. it's built in.

84. Scintan June 09, 2015 2:54 PM
Interestingly, she got pummeled in the comments and then walked her position back a bit:
"...subjecting the autonomy of editors (and therefore writers) to the dictates of Accounting."

*facepalm*

so ... Le Guin is saying that, under the current model, she's precisely as autonomous ... as her editor allows her to be?

jeezus. talk about the whining of the privileged and first world problems.

what about the fact that Amazon allows you to self-pub, eschewing editors altogether? ie, absolute authorial freedom?

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. we mustn't talk about facts.

Amazon uses the BS Machine to sell us sweetened fat to live on, so we begin to think that’s what literature is.

but ... but ... the BS Machine existed well BEFORE Amazon ( the NYT bestseller list has existed since 1931 ) and was, in fact, a creation of the traditional publishing houses?

ah fuck it. all you all can kiss my ass.
Jim June 10, 2015 9:23 AM: [b]Jim, I am dedicating my next book to you.[/b]

Sorry, folks. I'm out of the boycott until after Mr. Wright's next book.

***

BTW, does Castalia House do dead-tree publishing? I think there really is a market opportunity for signed books with personalized insults right now. I have $40 for it.
Athor Pel June 10, 2015 9:50 AM: "96. Scintan June 09, 2015 3:24 PM
...
I actually agree with the notion that the increased corporate greed we've seen since the 80's has been very bad for people overall. I don't know that there's a solution, however, as it's really a case of large corporations squeezing out the "We'll make enough money plus a little more, but we don't need to squeeze out every dollar or sell our souls" mom & pops and forcing them to become junior versions of the big guys, and there's not going to be any going back, at least in most areas of business."

Corporations aren't businesses in the same sense that a locally owned corner store is a business. Corporations are bureaucracies first and businesses second. Yes they strive for profit but they strive for survival first.

Corporations are not human, they have no mercy, they have no justice. They only know service to the eternal bureaucracy. It's a beast that seeks to shape its environment to suit itself. It's not just inhuman, it's anti-human.

Corporations don't innovate. They embrace change only when forced.

Corporations are the natural outgrowth of the expectation and emotional need for today to be the same as yesterday. It's an attempt to exert control on a world ultimately indifferent to human control. It's the desperate childlike need to avoid risk.

There will be no shiny happy future guided by benevolent or even benign global corporations.
Cail Corishev June 10, 2015 10:17 AM: because, as with all Cultural Marxists, Le Guin considers the profit motive to be an epithet.

And an "obscure process." I'm not sure what's obscure about wanting to earn money from your work so you can eat and have nice things, but there you go.

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