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Monday, July 13, 2015

Daneistocracy in Europe

The abject surrender of the Greek government demonstrates the growing irrelevance of democracy, not only in Europe, but across the West:
Less than a week after they triumphantly gave international creditors a bloody nose by rejecting a harsh austerity plan, angry and bewildered Greeks are left wondering how they now find themselves swallowing an even worse deal.

In a nationwide referendum just last Sunday, nearly 62 per cent of voters rejected an austerity deal that had been offered by the European Commission, International Monetary Fund and European Central Bank.

There were scenes of wild jubilation across the country.

In Athens' Syntagma Square, the Greek answer to Trafalgar Square, thousands of joyous 'No' voters hugged and kissed each other, waved Greece's national flag and swigged cans of beer.

“It was an expression of the will of the people,” Manos Agelidis, 27, a biomedical engineering PhD student, told The Telegraph as he celebrated with friends.

Fast forward just a few days, however, and Alexis Tsipras, the prime minister, did the unthinkable.

On Thursday, with a deadline imposed by the creditors looming, he buckled.

His radical Left-wing Syriza government, which came to power in January on the unrealistic promise of putting an end to austerity and the country's six-year long economic nightmare, put forward a plan that promises spending cuts of €12 billion in return for a third international bail-out, this time worth €53.5 billion (£38.4bn).
The European Union is not only post-democratic, it is openly and avowedly anti-democratic. It has continued to override the expressed will of the Irish, French, British, Italian, and Greek people by putting pressure on the elected representatives to subvert the will of the people.

This is why direct democracy is the only form of democracy that may still be considered viable. The idea of representative democracy is that the limits it places on democracy will be in the long term interests of the nation, but the way it has easily been subverted in the interests of the financial powers demonstrates that representative democracy is actually more susceptible to corruption and subversion than direct democracy.

Mob rule has its own flaws, but it is certainly to be preferred to creditor rule, or daneistocracy. And that is what representative democracy now amounts to, as the elected representatives of countries such as Greece agree to give up their national sovereignty just to keep the credit money spigot flowing.

Zerohedge add that the Eurozone is no longer a voluntary union:
Despite the euphoria in global equity markets, The FT's Wolfgang Munchau - once one of the keenest euro enthusiasts - warns regime change is coming in Europe. The actions of the creditors has "destroyed the eurozone as we know it and demolished the idea of a monetary union as a step towards a democratic political union," Munchau exclaims, fearing they have "demoted the eurozone into a toxic fixed exchange-rate system, with a shared single currency, run in the interests of Germany, held together by the threat of absolute destitution for those who challenge the prevailing order." He concludes rather ominously, "we will soon be asking ourselves whether this new eurozone, in which the strong push around the weak, can be sustainable."

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162 Comments:

Anonymous Dave July 13, 2015 10:11 AM  

Worse than crack addicts selling their babies for that sweet bailout

Blogger JartStar July 13, 2015 10:13 AM  

The most divisive step demanded by Greece’s creditors is the creation of a fund that would hold some €50 billion in state-owned assets slated to be privatized or wound down in the coming years. The fund will be under European supervision, Ms. Merkel said.

How does one pay off debt >180% of GDP? Start selling off your country.

Blogger Alexander July 13, 2015 10:17 AM  

First they sold the people on an idea, then they sold the people.

Representative democracy allows the elite the trappings and affluence of the aristocracy, without the class and undeniable responsibility.

It is a con game of bait-and-switch. It is the Jon Steward of governments.

Anonymous Porky July 13, 2015 10:18 AM  

Burn....burn....burn....

Anonymous Rob Fisher July 13, 2015 10:18 AM  

I think this is more of a story about how democracy fails when people vote themselves more of other people's money than exists.

Anonymous paradox July 13, 2015 10:22 AM  

I'm cool with direct democracy... now universal suffrage is scary.

Blogger Aquila Aquilonis Fulminata July 13, 2015 10:27 AM  

How do we know that they didn't threaten to put Tsipras's nuts a in a vice or maybe thumbscrews? Perhaps he is being coerced?

Blogger Danby July 13, 2015 10:29 AM  

It's like they want a bloody military dictatorship in Greece.
Again.

Oh, and you know the real problem here? Greeks deserve to be debt slaves to the Euro, because Greeks aren't philo-Semitic enough. Totally a really article. Totally not kidding

Blogger David-093 July 13, 2015 10:30 AM  

Theres only one way the banksters will ever learn.

Anonymous ZhukovG July 13, 2015 10:30 AM  

This is certainly an opportunity for Golden Dawn. But are they violent enough?

Blogger Nate Stole My Hat July 13, 2015 10:30 AM  

I think this is more of a story about how democracy fails when people vote themselves more of other people's money than exists.

You're complaining about the symptom.

Blogger Danby July 13, 2015 10:31 AM  

Tsipras's nuts a in a vice
All they had to do was threaten to cut off the credit line. Facing up to the consequences of bad economics is always a nightmare for Commies.

Anonymous Roundtine July 13, 2015 10:31 AM  

How long before the Greek flag is taken down?

Blogger Salt July 13, 2015 10:34 AM  

How does one pay off debt >180% of GDP? Start selling off your country.

Ultimately, the Aegean sea Greek isles will be owned by the ECB... least till the Greeks go to war again as the Euro-tes try to lay hold of their claim.

Anonymous Dr. J July 13, 2015 10:34 AM  

Mob rule has its own flaws, but it is certainly to be preferred to creditor rule, or daneistocracy.

Is direct democracy your preferred form of government, or is it merely better than the current forms of representative democracy? The federalist papers make a fairly compelling case against democracy in general. And in times like these, one can even make the case for a nationalist dictator like Putin. I'm not clear on how the Russian DUMA is supposed to work, but they seem to just rubber stamp his plans at present.

Blogger David-093 July 13, 2015 10:38 AM  

How long will it be before the elites stage a false flag to gin up support for a war against Greece?

Anonymous zen0 July 13, 2015 10:40 AM  

When Donald Tusk, the European Council President, tried to issue the communiqué without him, Varoufakis consulted Eurogroup clerks – could Tusk exclude a member state? The meeting was briefly halted. After a handful of calls, a lawyer turned to him and said, “Well, the Eurogroup does not exist in law, there is no treaty which has convened this group.”

“So,” Varoufakis said, “What we have is a non-existent group that has the greatest power to determine the lives of Europeans. It’s not answerable to anyone, given it doesn’t exist in law; no minutes are kept; and it’s confidential. No citizen ever knows what is said within . . . These are decisions of almost life and death, and no member has to answer to anybody.”


Beyond the Law

Behold, Ladies and Gentlemen. A Shape-shifting reptile.

Blogger njartist July 13, 2015 10:41 AM  

Definition of "daneistocracy": rule by the creditors: based on the Greek "daneistes."

Vox Day will need to be renamed Vox Buckley: but only in terms of using a larger vocabulary. (WFB was a CIA asset used to drive out the real conservatives.)

Anonymous Sevron #0358 July 13, 2015 10:45 AM  

Representative democracy worked for awhile, or at least seems to. It went off the rails when suffrage was granted universally. tue only way to make it work again is to restrict the franchise by some objective standard. The problem is, future generations would no doubt universalize it again, and we'd be right back to here. So maybe Man just isn't governable.

Blogger Joshua Dyal July 13, 2015 10:45 AM  

I'm still suspicious of any plan for direct democracy--and I haven't yet really looked at any specific plans--in terms of how they ensure that voters have enough skin in the game to be reliably non-corrupt voters.

I think representative democracy isn't necessarily done for; it just needs a major reworking of how to make sure representatives are held accountable.

Anonymous kfg July 13, 2015 10:47 AM  

"Perhaps he is being coerced?"

Ya think?

"Theres only one way the banksters will ever learn."

We're gonna need more lampposts.

Blogger James Dixon July 13, 2015 10:48 AM  

> I'm still suspicious of any plan for direct democracy--and I haven't yet really looked at any specific plans--in terms of how they ensure that voters have enough skin in the game to be reliably non-corrupt voters.

They have to be net taxpayers. That's pretty much the only standard that matters.

Anonymous Philalethes July 13, 2015 10:49 AM  

In case anybody wonders: Daneistocracy > daneistēs (δανειστής), "money lender, creditor". See Luke 7:41.

"The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender." – Proverbs 22:7

Anonymous Alfanerd July 13, 2015 10:53 AM  

Tim Blair has a good comment with respect to the Greek referendum:
It's like a guy falling from 40 storeys and voting for a soft landing.

I hate the EU with all my heart, and I hope the Greek crisis spells the beginning of the end for it, and the creditors who lent Greece money are greedy idiots. But if Greece defaults and nobody ever lends Greece money (or euros at least) ever again, then that's fine by me.

It's sad for Greece but having it as an example to show others what happens when you spend beyond your means may prove useful.

Anonymous RedJack #22 July 13, 2015 10:54 AM  

Greece has the choice of Berlin or Moscow right now.

We will see who they choose, or who takes ownership.

Blogger Salt July 13, 2015 10:54 AM  

They have to be net taxpayers. That's pretty much the only standard that matters.

Screw that. Even foreigners can be net taxpayers. Only citizens, and some of them may object to what gets taxed.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan July 13, 2015 10:56 AM  

At a certain point do socialists even need to vote? Cuba comes to mind, no lefties immolating themselves over that detail.

Blogger David-093 July 13, 2015 11:04 AM  

This is sending everyone a message that theres no point in voting because the banksters will simply override it, so their only alternative is military action.

Nobody will pity them when theyre swinging from lampposts.

Blogger Danby July 13, 2015 11:04 AM  

Somebody remind me again of the difference between daneistocracy, kleptocracy, iodaiocracy and kakistocracy?

Blogger Rabbi B July 13, 2015 11:14 AM  

"In case anybody wonders: Daneistocracy > daneistēs (δανειστής), "money lender, creditor". See Luke 7:41. "The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender." – Proverbs 22:7"

Oh yes, the mighty merchants of the earth . . their day is coming:

For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury.

And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise anymore: merchandise of gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet, every kind of citron wood, every kind of object of ivory, every kind of object of most precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble; and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men . . .

The merchants of these things, who became rich by her, will stand at a distance for fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city that was clothed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls! For in one hour such great riches came to nothing.’ (cf. Revelation 18)

Blogger Steveo #238 July 13, 2015 11:22 AM  

This is a Rape Rape worthy of a grrm epic. Dang an entire country bent over a bank desk. Who's your dutch uncle, Greece? Time's to gett'n a feud'n.

Anonymous Porky July 13, 2015 11:24 AM  

Thanks, Rabbi, that made me smile. :)

Blogger Robert What? July 13, 2015 11:24 AM  

I wonder what they have on Tsipras? It must be a doozy. Maybe threatened his family? Or maybe he's just a typical sellout pol?

Blogger Jack Ward July 13, 2015 11:25 AM  

Direct Democracy.
First: Limit suffrage. Severely
Rid the USA of all the illegals. See first step. Remove the idiotic anchor baby rule; make that rule retroactive at least 50 years and the babies of illegals are accessed, fairly. on how they have led their lives during their time here. Get rid of the riff raff; fairly.
You may have to chase out a fair amount of others anyway.
End all public assistance except in really exceptional cases. On a case by case test.
Make a through knowledge of civics and the Constitution mandatory to vote. Make voting mandatory for all qualified voters..
Allow voting by all members of the Military. If they can die for us they can vote. After these military folk muster out give them a grace period to meet the civilian standards and, if they don't, they lose the right to vote. Unless they retired, honorably, after at least 20 years service.
Keep the Supreme Court and the Congress but, organize a group of voting citizens, on a rotating basis, that oversee and have impeachment powers and use them as needed.

Have I missed anything?
Oh, Vox in the video from Paris, did not look all that evil.

Anonymous KBT July 13, 2015 11:25 AM  

"They have to be net taxpayers. That's pretty much the only standard that matters."

Not sure that's an adequate metric anymore. There's a lot of high income, tax paying leftists here in California. It's not only po' folk that can benefit from big government.

Blogger Jack Ward July 13, 2015 11:26 AM  

@35
Yes, I did miss something, end the IRS and establish the fair tax.

Anonymous cheddarman July 13, 2015 11:26 AM  

Porky,

do you have all the judgement verses highlighted in red in your bible?

just wondering

Anonymous Jourdan July 13, 2015 11:27 AM  

I thought I had totally outgrown the 15 year old punk-scene dude I used to be who just wanted to kick their system over and watch it burn.

Funny thing is all these years later, I've finally realized that 15-year old me had more good sense than 30- or 40-year old me.

I agree with kfg, we're gonna need more lampposts. I just hope I last long enough to see these despots, idiots, lickspittles and petty thieves swing.

Blogger Student in Blue July 13, 2015 11:30 AM  

@Jack Ward

The night hides the natural malevolent aura that Vox exudes. It's why he's such a night owl - how else would he conduct business with the less evil?

Anonymous Porky July 13, 2015 11:31 AM  

@cheddar

Knowing that God has everything in his capable hands is like a soft pillow beneath my head.

Blogger Brad Andrews July 13, 2015 11:33 AM  

End all public assistance period. The government has no business in the role of private charity. The transition would be quite rough as we have created a dependent class, with the mindsets to support it, but that is the only way to reassert reality.

It won't happen until the transition is even worse and forced however. Too many people think spending other people's money is a great idea, however they can get that OPM.

Anonymous Jack Amok July 13, 2015 11:33 AM  

They have to be net taxpayers. That's pretty much the only standard that matters.

Representative democracy only works with a relatively restricted electorate. Voting needs to be restricted to people who have a long-term time preference, do not consider themselves part of a separate society from the non-voters, and value their place in that society. And they should be small enough in numbers that they fear for their lives if the non-voters get pissed off enough to revolt.

That last part is important - the rulers in a society need to fear the wrath of the ruled or they will become despots, kleptocrats, or both. The problem with wide-franchise representative democracy is the rulers - the electoral majority - don't fear the minority.


Anonymous KBT July 13, 2015 11:34 AM  

"Porky,

do you have all the judgement verses highlighted in red in your bible? "

And is it blood? Because if it's just marker pen, seriously, you're just phoning it in. ;-)

Anonymous WhiteKnightLeo #0368 July 13, 2015 11:35 AM  

I suppose my complaint here is the idea that the EU is actually a form of representative democracy. Or that the problems in a nation don't ultimately reside with the electorate of that nation.
.
Blaming the so-called "elites" is usually easier, but with it comes the assumption that the fault lies in the stars and not the failings of humanity in general.

Anonymous 360 July 13, 2015 11:35 AM  

All you will need to vote in a direct democracy is this tiny little implant in your hand. Kidding (sort of) aside, how would direct democracy not be used as a weapon by those in power? Your voting record would be public and how you vote on every issue would be there for all to see. If you don't pull the party line, how would you not suffer the consequences? It would be an SJW's wet dream. Instant and universal DISQUALIFY.

Anonymous Jack Amok July 13, 2015 11:41 AM  

Not sure that's an adequate metric anymore. There's a lot of high income, tax paying leftists here in California. It's not only po' folk that can benefit from big government.

Right - the ideal electorate isn't the majority, but isn't a small minority either. It's got to be small enough to fear the majority ("lamppost democracy") but large enough to feel it's from the same society as the non-voters and to represent enough of the productive capacity of society that they can't loot the treasury without stealing from themselves.

California plutocrats can steal from the masses.

Blogger DaveofSpades July 13, 2015 11:45 AM  

I don't see any good guys here. The Greek people have demanded more & more free stuff, high wages etc from the government. The government has repeatedly given the Greeks what they wanted, now with more bribes & less people paying taxes. These are the folks that got around a maximum yearly salary law by adding 2 months to the pay calendar. Then, in order to fund the gimmedat demands, the government had to borrow money which greedy bankers gleefully lent them even knowing that the Greeks have no way of repaying it.

Everyone involved was greedy & short sighted. Let it all burn. I'll laugh at the stories of Greeks starving to death because bread costs a month's salary & they can't even afford to import meat.

Blogger VD July 13, 2015 11:47 AM  

I think representative democracy isn't necessarily done for; it just needs a major reworking of how to make sure representatives are held accountable.

That's totally fucking idiotic. In EVERY country where there has been a comparison between DIRECT DEMOCRACY and REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY, the former has been observably more sane and responsible than the latter.

It's reprehensibly stupid to be more afraid of something that in theory is supposed to be worse, but in reality is observably better.

Why not just envision a fix for communism while you're at it?

The idea that direct democracy is more susceptible to corruption than representative democracy doesn't make any sense, logically or historically.

Blogger Tommy Hass July 13, 2015 11:50 AM  

What exactly happened in Italy? How did the EU impose a new government?

Blogger Dan in Tx July 13, 2015 11:54 AM  

I pretty much figured these so called "radical leftists" were going to give the banksters everything they wanted in the end. When they got elected, they appeared to me to be nothing more than a last ditch effort to stave off Golden Dawn.

Anonymous Jourdan July 13, 2015 11:55 AM  

The FT is MSM and Munchau is vastly over-rated as an analyst, but if he's saying in the open that the EU is clearly a plutocracy run by, for and of a financier class, that's better than nothing.

I also should say that if it's taken a man of his position this long to realize this, I have been much too hard on the good folks on this board who held to the belief that Greece was going to leave the Euro or that this "crisis" was the beginning of the unravelling of the EU.

It's just that the understanding of the nature of the enemy simply isn't as apparent as I had thought. Happily, however, hubris and pride are leading them to taking off the mask and it seems more and more people every day are realizing that something is very, very wrong.

On the other hand, to hold to the maxim of this board not to spare feelings and to speak the truth it should also be said that any one who thought the same EU which within a span of hours overthrew a democratically elected government in Italy would blanche from doing what was necessary to keep Greece on side doesn't understand what they are talking about.

Blogger MendoScot July 13, 2015 11:56 AM  

Run a deficit and you will never be rid of the daneistes.

Blogger Rabbi B July 13, 2015 11:59 AM  

"Thanks, Rabbi, that made me smile."

VD's comment in the OP, "And that is what representative democracy now amounts to, as the elected representatives of countries such as Greece agree to give up their national sovereignty just to keep the credit money spigot flowing," brought these passages to mind . . .

It comes down to money and commerce, which these folks (merchants of the earth) truly believe makes the world go 'round. They hold the power and the influence. A symptom of a deeper problem. For me, VD's comment and observation in the OP is yet another example of truth reflecting Truth.

Without trying to go too far a field, the mark of the beast (whatever it may be) relates to facilitating commerce. So it's no surprise to me that the global economy, as it relates to the nations, is more center-stage than ever, not to mention that one of the four ancient empires (Greece) is also a focus right now.

I don't know what to make of all of it, and I know that there were people in every generation who thought theirs was the last one, but I think there is no doubt that the birth pangs are getting closer and closer together and we find ourselves living in exciting times when our redemption is drawing nigh.

No one know the hour, but we know it will be sudden and this no time to fall asleep.

Blogger Joshua Dyal July 13, 2015 12:00 PM  

The idea that direct democracy is more susceptible to corruption than representative democracy doesn't make any sense, logically or historically.

Based on what examples? The problem with direct democracy is proper limits on suffrage, the problem with representational democracy is proper controls for representative accountability. Both problems are surmountable, so why conclude that representational democracy is bound to fail? There's only very limited examples of direct democracy historically to refer to, and while some ballot measures and a bit of what happened in ancient Athens and in Switzerland are encouraging, that's not representational enough to suggest that any direct democracy scheme is going to a priori be better than any representational democracy scheme.

Anonymous Porky July 13, 2015 12:01 PM  

The idea that direct democracy is more susceptible to corruption than representative democracy doesn't make any sense, logically or historically.

Switzerland just voted overwhelmingly to use tax dollars to kill babies.

I guess it all depends on what you consider to be corruption.

Blogger James Dixon July 13, 2015 12:02 PM  

> I think representative democracy isn't necessarily done for; it just needs a major reworking of how to make sure representatives are held accountable.

I believe it was Heinlein that proposed an explosive collar around each representatives neck with every person being represented having a detonator. Somehow I doubt that would get support amongst the current legislature.

Anonymous zen0 July 13, 2015 12:03 PM  

After WW1, States were formed on democratic principles in Eastern and South-Eastern Europe. Unlike the states in Western Europe, their populations were not monolithic, but diverse.

The formerly dominant nationalities found themselves in minority positions, so were prone to support revisionist politics. The newly acquired institutions based on French and Belgian models found it difficult to apply democratic methods in practice. Democratic principles were frequently and systematically watered down in practice, with the result that authoritarian and dictatorial methods were introduced.

Real world examples of Democracy -> Dictatorship, and "Diversity is our Strength".

Anonymous Duke of URL July 13, 2015 12:08 PM  

Rob Fisher: I think this is more of a story about how democracy fails when people vote themselves more of other people's money than exists.
--
Absolutely correct, sir. Also, all the condemnation of the "eevilll" banks? Well, if you can't or don't intend to pay back the money you borrowed, knowing it was a legitimate debt, then you are simply a thief.

Blogger James Dixon July 13, 2015 12:14 PM  

> Well, if you can't or don't intend to pay back the money you borrowed, knowing it was a legitimate debt, then you are simply a thief.

If you don't intend to, then yes. But if you simply can't, that's another matter entirely. Legitimate debts are cancelled because of an inability to pay all the time.

Anonymous Spooner July 13, 2015 12:15 PM  

Abe, The Proclamator of Emancipation, would be proud of the Greek Gunverrment.

Blogger The Remnant July 13, 2015 12:20 PM  

I think it's fitting to call the European Union the Fourth Reich.

Anonymous Donn #0114 July 13, 2015 12:21 PM  

Other than Switzerland are there any other direct democracy national govts today?

Blogger VD July 13, 2015 12:26 PM  

I guess it all depends on what you consider to be corruption.

That isn't corruption, Porky, and you know it. Just stop it. I'm so not in the mood for your stupid Gamma games.

Blogger Groot July 13, 2015 12:28 PM  

There's nothing wrong with commerce, unless you like poverty. What should be fascinating you is the "money spigot" that Vox refers to. Only governments can create and operate these. They don't have to steal it from anybody, they don't have to raise taxes, or coerce anybody. The (metaphorical) printing presses just need to run day and night. (Metaphorical because they just add zeroes to a database somewhere.) The credit card they're using, though, is yours and your kids'.

Anonymous Philalethes July 13, 2015 12:28 PM  

Switzerland just voted overwhelmingly to use tax dollars to kill babies.

Switzerland was lost in 1971. Since then it's just been a matter of time.

Blogger RC July 13, 2015 12:32 PM  

If they knew then what we know now, what would the American Founders have done differently?

Anonymous zen0 July 13, 2015 12:38 PM  

58. Duke of URL

Well, if you can't or don't intend to pay back the money you borrowed, knowing it was a legitimate debt, then you are simply a thief.

What are you if you resort to predatory lending, knowing the debt will be self-generating and then packaging this debt into toxic "assets" that you sell to rubes, and then if you get into trouble, getting the taxpayers to bail you out.

You are simply a banker.

Anonymous Philalethes July 13, 2015 12:46 PM  

P.S. on Switzerland: When one last canton declined to march to the new tune, an activist Supreme Court simply forced it on them.

America leads the way!

And in the first federal election in which women voted, the federal constitution was amended to provide a "human right to a non-hazardous environment".

Anyone surprised that "free" abortion on demand is now enshrined in Swiss law?

Blogger VD July 13, 2015 12:47 PM  

I said drop it. You didn't. Don't comment any more today.

Anonymous FriarBob July 13, 2015 12:52 PM  

@rc If they knew then what we know now, what would the American Founders have done differently?

Lots. They were pissed off enough to revolt against KG3, so the actual declaration would likely still have been signed. But I think the Constitution would have been VERY different. I would bet the South and North would have decided that two separate countries that tried to stay friendly without actually uniting would be a better idea, for one. They probably would have explicitly written the powers of the Supreme Court (and its *not* allowed powers as well). And several other things would have been considered.

Blogger JartStar July 13, 2015 12:54 PM  

I'm sure the privatization will work out well, just like in Germany. Treuhandanstalt

Blogger hank.jim July 13, 2015 12:57 PM  

The problem with Greece is the Greek government are still asking for a bailout instead of just leaving the Euro and EU. They need to just default and go into receivership. Start over again. Getting a bailout won't help their economy recover. It just keeps getting worse.

Blogger Oliver Cromwell July 13, 2015 12:57 PM  

I am not fully sold on democracy as a whole, but on representative vs direct, I am not sure how much difference there is in practice. The reason the Greek government went back on its own referendum is that following through with the result of the referendum would have meant a Euro exit. But the vast majority of the Greeks say they don't want a Euro exit. Essentially the Greek government had to decide which of the ignorant masses' multiple incompossible desires they don't want the least, and they decided to keep Euro membership at the expense of the entire rest of their programme. If the Greeks had been clamouring to leave the Euro then Syriza would have chucked the Euro, but they weren't.

Anonymous Dr. Doom July 13, 2015 12:59 PM  

Oh too bad. It looks like those idiotic merchants who wander the Earth suffering the persecution of Truth have lost yet again. Where is The Final Solution to these nation wreckers?
Anyone who expected the Communist Party to stand up to the merchant bankers, just doesn't know how this game is played. Back when the Germans sent Lenin Eastward in a locked railroad car, he called his pals on Wall Street and they sent him bagfuls of money and arms to kill their old enemy the Tsar. Seems he was a Christian and had a problem with Satanists like them. All these commies work for the Merchant Banks, all of them. Even Bernie The Bum Sanders is on his knees on Wall Street before every election cycle.
Democracy didn't just fail, it never worked to begin with. THE UNITED STATES IS A REPUBLIC. When only White men who were landowners and taxpayers could vote, voting worked. 15 minutes after they let anyone else vote, the System began to collapse. Voting is Bullshit. You don't vote for Kings. Kings have the class that Merchant Banks never do. Its GENETIC.

Blogger Jack Ward July 13, 2015 1:04 PM  

@James 56
I can see Heinlein's idea here. It would have to be hack proof and a solid, say, 70 percentile of the citizen's would have to press at the same time and, each bad politician, bureaucrat, Justice, etc, would have to be done separately.
But, yeah, with our present technology it could be done. You could even set it up so that the first dead line commit by the populace would not kill but generate a warning. The one warned would have to own up, fully, all records checked, lie detector test, the works. If that person had done some things so egregious as to warrant death then so be it.
I would further say that the right to press a detonator be limited to the qualified voters.

Anonymous Roundtine July 13, 2015 1:05 PM  

Only a week ago Greek voters rejected a better deal and not even a full six months ago, they elected a new government because the old austerity program was unpopular. The new deal is the old deal, but much much worse.

Now Syriza members are saying they won't vote for the deal and Finland says it won't vote to finance it. This at least restores some sanity to the world.

Anonymous Jourdan July 13, 2015 1:08 PM  

@RC -

If they knew then what we know now, what would the American Founders have done differently?

Hell, RC, not only that, I'm certain that if we could take U.S. and UK soldiers reading for the Normandy landing forward in time and take them on a tour of today's New York and the U.S. and today's London and the UK, they would have refused to fight upon return to their own time.

Blogger Jack Ward July 13, 2015 1:08 PM  

@56 and 75
You know there might be a decent near future story here. On gosh, who could write it?

Anonymous Kreator July 13, 2015 1:09 PM  

Roundtime, even if (some) Syriza members do not vote for it, then Tsipras has all the available votes he needs in the form of New Democracy, Pasok and Potami, those thugs will more than enough cover for his lost votes.

Only KKE and GD will vote negatively for those measures.

And I have heard a rumor that Tsipras' family was threatened, but it was only in a gossip paper, so I paid it no heed, do not doubt it altogether, but I do not pay it much more heed until I see more evidence of it.

Anonymous Jourdan July 13, 2015 1:09 PM  

Damn pain meds

In Post 77 above, I meant "training" in the first sentence and not "reading".

Blogger Tiny Tim July 13, 2015 1:33 PM  

This assumes the voting, either within a democratic republic or a pure democracy, is tabulated and executed perfectly and reflects the pure will of the voters in total.

We all know the last honest election in the US has probably occurred.

Electronic voting is as accurate as the controllers want it to be.

Take a representative democracy, if the NSA can capture a Supreme Court Justice viewing porn on his laptop and spanking the monkey than it is all corrupted and of no value as all they need to do is e-mail a screenshot of Justice Roberts hunched over his desk and you get whatever decision you need.

The problem at this point isn't one democratic model over the other.

The problem is a corrupted system of tallying the will of the people either way. As it stands the process has been rendered of no legitimate effect.

Blogger Danby July 13, 2015 1:35 PM  

In a month, Tsipras will be out, Varoufkis will be head of the Syriza party, and elections will be either already completed, or underway.

Anonymous kfg July 13, 2015 1:37 PM  

"human right to a non-hazardous environment".

Has anybody sent the universe the memo?

Blogger Tiny Tim July 13, 2015 1:39 PM  

As if elections mean anything anymore.

The electoral process is nothing more than a tool for the elites to get who they want and what they want.

And as a measure of last resort, and assassination can always be played.

Game over.

To believe the world's trillionairres allow any honest election when their interests are at stake is foolishness of the highest order.

The election is to get compliance from the population, not find out who they want.

It is mind control. "hey, if you vote, even if you lose, you earn the right to complain".

Blogger Tiny Tim July 13, 2015 1:43 PM  

Like DuPont, when I worked for them. Every big decision appeared to be put to the workers.

We had meetings. A scribe would capture our ideas and concerns. At the end of the day, we would vote on the most important and were told there would be followup. There was never followup. The purpose of the process was to make us feel like we had a say so our acceptance would come by default.

Like all these rigged elections. We think we are actually participating in the selection of somebody when in all actuality we are being mind controlled to accept the results, however unlikely, and to remove our arguments against going forward.

Blogger ScuzzaMan July 13, 2015 1:45 PM  

These arseholes just cannot help themselves. The idea that robing German taxpayers to bail out the Greek government, who owes tens of billions to German bankers, is "in the interests of Germany", is an idea that only.a particular type of arsehole could articulate. The kind who deliberately peddles the false identity that the German banker/political classes ARE Germany.

Germany has ponied up 190 billion Euro to the ESM. As a German taxpayer who will ultimately end up paying for this invented largesse, I see nothing in it that can be remotely likened to "my interests".
I would have much preferred that the German Supreme Court upheld the constitution and barred the government from funding the ESM. That would have served MY interests.

But like SCOTUS they're just making it up as they go along. Re-interpreting. Demonstrating that their vaunted political independence is simply one more idiotic fantasy, peddled by scurrilous liars, thieves, and murderers.

Anonymous zen0 July 13, 2015 1:52 PM  

80. Jourdan

>Damn pain meds

Do you not have oxycodone in your country? That will really mess you up.


@ 82. Danby

>In a month, Tsipras will be out, Varoufkis will be head of the Syriza party,

I don't think so. Varoufakis is an academic. He is already halfway through writing the book on the whole thing. If you check the link @ 17. zen0 you will read how he realized he was making economic arguments to people who have no interest in economics.

Blogger Nate July 13, 2015 1:57 PM  

This capitulation indicates to me that someone found a horse head in their bed.

Blogger Tiny Tim July 13, 2015 1:58 PM  

Like Chip Tatum says. With the elites, it works like this:

"Hello Daniel Ortega. Either allow open elections or your cousin dies in two weeks". Two weeks go by and the cousin is killed.

Ortega: "We will be holding open elections".

All of this ceased to be the will of the people long ago.

The will of the people is so outmoded.

It is far cheaper to rig elections than to secure votes.

Blogger Tiny Tim July 13, 2015 2:02 PM  

Fast acting cancer inducing viruses also work well in managing flyers and getting compliance... one way or the other.

The only variability comes from one faction of elites wanting their own stooge over the other factions stooge.

I can assure you the will of the people is not a factor.

Blogger Tiny Tim July 13, 2015 2:07 PM  

Just like this "EL Chapo" threatening to kill Trump.

The scene is set, the actors are in place, let act II begin.

.

Blogger Tiny Tim July 13, 2015 2:14 PM  

Gene Tatum claims to have met with George Bush and was given the orders to neutralize Ross Perot. He declined, others in the room accepted, and Perot was out shortly thereafter.

The electoral process, any electoral process, is dead.

Blogger Tiny Tim July 13, 2015 2:21 PM  

Trump: 'Corrupt' Mexican Officials Let Drug Kingpin Escape

The Donald doubles down.

I bet Jeb is popping open a cold one and taking a well deserved break from the days activities.

Things are looking up.


Anonymous Mavwreck July 13, 2015 2:26 PM  

I'm willing to give Tspiras a bit of a pass on this weekend's capitulation, as I don't think he really had much of a choice. He came into this round (after the referendum) with a mandate to reject the previous offer, but he didn't have a mandate to walk away from the table.

Remember, before the referendum polling numbers said a solid majority of Greeks wanted to reject the deal; however, a similar majority didn't want to leave the Euro.

The referendum - and Tspiras' campaign for a "No" vote - needed to be clearer. I believe a lot of Greeks went to vote thinking "No" meant "we want to negotiate for a better deal." They should have realized that "No" meant "we want to negotiate for a better deal, but we may get a worse deal - or no deal at all.".

Tspiras bet against the resolve of the Eurozone creditors, and lost. I can't blame him for folding when it came to the end - he just didn't have the cards. However, I think he was basically bluffing with Greece's future on the line - and didn't make the risks clear enough to the Greek people.

Anonymous Alfanerd July 13, 2015 2:31 PM  

What are you if you resort to predatory lending, knowing the debt will be self-generating and then packaging this debt into toxic "assets" that you sell to rubes, and then if you get into trouble, getting the taxpayers to bail you out.

This is correct. Indeed, the supposed "risk" assumed by the creditors was priced-in to the bonds to the Greek government, were they not?

But the creditors never assumed any risk, the non-Greek European taxpayers did. And the creditors got paid extra for "assuming" this risk.

Both the creditors and the lenders are thieves here. The victim is the taxpayer. It's a two-part con job.

The only proper solution is for the creditors to receive nothing, and for the Greek government to be unable to access credit for a long time. So obviously that will never happen.

Anonymous 11B July 13, 2015 2:39 PM  

So the Greeks gave a massive 'no' vote last Sunday only to see their leaders cave. Welcome to the club. GOP voters gave those bums a majority in both houses of Congress in November, yet before they were even sworn in they caved on amnesty, obamacare and pretty much everything else they were elected to stop.

It seems like people in the West can't make that final jump into the area of armed resistance. We see the islamic world has no problem taking up arms for their cause. I might not support them, but I have to admire their courage at taking up arms to get their way. Even the Eastern Europeans seem ready, willing, and able to fight for their rights. But we in the West have been pacified. Clearly Westerners have it in them to fight. But for now, we are pretty submissive. That's sad because we've gone from our Founders who fought for their rights to the slobs we are today. Even the Greeks in antiquity had heroic moments. But today's Greeks are a disgrace.

Anonymous Senghendrake July 13, 2015 2:45 PM  

11B:

Even when they turn up the heat, the pot still doesn't boil fast enough for the frog to do anything about it. The cultural marxists have been emboldened, and rightfully so.

Blogger Dominic Saltarelli July 13, 2015 3:00 PM  

Which is why I continue to support the libertarian ideals of limited government. Every system will cornhole you if it can. The only solution worth fighting for is to take away the corncob.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper July 13, 2015 3:05 PM  

11b, we in the West are still pretty well off. Beyond the personal risk, revolution means economic collapse and granny starves . People don't want that risk for what they perceptive as little gain.

And yes for the average Greek or anyone else its only a little gain, power is not something most have any experience with nor do they want it . In most cases they simply want better rulers, a more homogeneous state and a bit more prosperity and upward mobility.

Its pretty hard to make the choice to kill tens of thousands and fracture society to get so little

Even an ACW 2,0 and a complete purge of the Left and mass deportations of non Americans and troublemakers would only net Joe Sixpack a slightly better life.

To get that that meager gruel , he'd have to live through a civil war, lose friends and family, starve , watch his country be torn asunder, live through a police state set up by his side.

That said, White French are quite willing to fight as are a subset of Irish and others and Germans seem to be getting riled up and burning a lot refugee camps. Nationalist parties are rising as well. Don't count Europe or Whites out just yet.

Blogger James Dixon July 13, 2015 3:11 PM  

> Which is why I continue to support the libertarian ideals of limited government

That concept was killed in the 1860's, Dominic. We've had an effectively unlimited federal government since.

Blogger njartist July 13, 2015 3:12 PM  

It seems like people in the West can't make that final jump into the area of armed resistance.

The elites have long planned for such an uprising: they are ready to slaughter us.

Blogger Salt July 13, 2015 3:13 PM  

Both the creditors and the lenders are thieves here. The victim is the taxpayer. It's a two-part con job.

Quite so. It's the same everywhere. On April 15th here, people pony up their share of the extortion. It is a con job too.

Blogger Dominic Saltarelli July 13, 2015 3:14 PM  

That concept was killed in the 1860's, Dominic. We've had an effectively unlimited federal government since.

bummer

Blogger bob k. mando July 13, 2015 3:21 PM  

58. Duke of URL July 13, 2015 12:08 PM
Also, all the condemnation of the "eevilll" banks? Well, if you can't or don't intend to pay back the money you borrowed, knowing it was a legitimate debt, then you are simply a thief.



a - the banks create money out of thin air to lend ( fractional reserve in theory, no reserve in practice ).

b - banks lent money to debtors THAT THEY KNEW COULD NOT PAY THEM BACK. this has been done many times from the international stage down to the personal

c - the consequence for making a loan to an insolvent debtor is ... ?

why then, is it only the debtors who are held to account? i suggest you see point d.

d - the central banks of the world ( such as the Federal Reserve ) are ... OWNED BY THE PRIVATE BANKS?




70. FriarBob July 13, 2015 12:52 PM
I would bet the South and North would have decided that two separate countries that tried to stay friendly without actually uniting would be a better idea, for one.



had the Union admitted the obvious, that secession ( and slavery ) was under the purview of the 10th amendment, there would have been no need for separate countries.

it was the Union that destroyed the Law.

and once the Law of Principle has been destroyed, you have only the Law of Might.



72. hank.jim July 13, 2015 12:57 PM
The problem with Greece is the Greek government are still asking for a bailout



true. Argentina has 'restructured' twice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_debt_restructuring

Iceland did likewise.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9311_Icelandic_financial_crisis

my suspicion is that Germany ( and the other 'creditor' nations ) cannot afford to allow a haircut on the debts that they have lent to Greece ( and others ) ... as that would monkeywrench their balance sheets and expose that they have ALSO been living beyond their means.

just not so extravagantly as the Greeks have.



75. Jack Ward July 13, 2015 1:04 PM
I can see Heinlein's idea here. It would have to be hack proof


i suggest an implementation by which the neck collars would use the Office of Personal Management computers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Office_of_Personnel_Management#2015_Data_Breach

think about it ... WORST case, we have a secure computer system.

Anonymous KBT July 13, 2015 3:22 PM  

"The elites have long planned for such an uprising: they are ready to slaughter us."

That's been my read due to the increasing fearlessness with which they openly resent the masses. Here in California people have called in to their rep's state office to oppose or support a bill, and been openly mocked and sworn at. Complaints led to nothing.

More likely, though, they have prepared bolt holes they can escape to when it does finally collapse. The media will cover for them.

If I could just get one rich person interested in my truly open and honest news channel. Ever read Transmetropolitan by Warren Ellis? Imagine a battalion of Spider Jerusalems hounding people in power at every appearance and press conference.

Blogger bob k. mando July 13, 2015 3:29 PM  

104. KBT July 13, 2015 3:22 PM
Imagine a battalion of Spider Jerusalems hounding people in power


i will only agree to this plan IF the battalion is loaded out with Bowel Disruptors. set to 'Rectal Prolapse'.

Blogger David-093 July 13, 2015 3:34 PM  

@njartist

Theyre afraid, they think they have too much to lose and too little support. I dont have a wife or kids so maybe thats why im hoping it starts soon, but I can believe they dont want to step out of line. Theyll wait til its safe.

Blogger Groot July 13, 2015 3:38 PM  

@102. Dominic Saltarelli:

The concept is alive. The ideal is articulated in our founding documents, the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. If we had 6 "conservatives" on the Supreme Court (however squishy), instead of 5, none of these recent decisions would have gone the wrong way. Buck up, for Pete's sake, we are much closer to winning than all this pessimism reflects.

Anonymous FriarBob July 13, 2015 3:44 PM  

@bob.k.mando

Not entirely accurate. Oh the Union did give the deathblow but the slave states pushing for the return of their "property" and the push to make EVERY territory allow slavery were very much paet of the problem. The horrendous (and illegal under the letter of the Constitution) Dred Scott decision was just icing on the cake.

Both sides tried to control the other instead of explicitly recognizing the intent of the 10th. The cost then was bad enough, what is soon coming out of that will be even worse.

Anonymous BGS July 13, 2015 4:03 PM  

I bet Jeb is popping open a cold one and taking a well deserved break from the days activities.

Ever since I saw a picture of his cleaning lady, I mean wife with the phrase De plane Boss De Plane I cant respect him. He could have afforded to get a telenova star for a wife if he wanted the Hispanic vote, even the cleaning ladies on telenovas look more feminine

Anonymous BGS July 13, 2015 4:07 PM  

How does one pay off debt >180% of GDP? Start selling off your country.

It was never intended to be paid off. These elite looters have a stunningly simple MO that they repeat seemingly non-stop. Destroy a nation and its economy, and then swoop in and collect hard assets on the cheap usually with easy money due to proximity to central bankers. The goal that these connected money men want is a publicly sanctioned private looting.

Tsipras's nuts a in a vice

Vote this way or no more spending money for your baca bazi boys.

Anonymous Don July 13, 2015 4:23 PM  

That sounds about right. ""Munchau exclaims, fearing they have "demoted the eurozone into a toxic fixed exchange-rate system, with a shared single currency, run in the interests of Germany..."

Blogger Emmanuel Mateo-Morales July 13, 2015 4:24 PM  

@bob.k mando

So the truth comes out, doesn't it you slave monger?

Blogger bob k. mando July 13, 2015 4:28 PM  

108. FriarBob July 13, 2015 3:44 PM
the slave states pushing for the return of their "property"


you're asserting that the slaves were NOT their property?


and the push to make EVERY territory allow slavery

so much for your adherence to the principle of free speech.



it amuses me that the Dred Scott decision was arrived at by the interference of a Democrat president ... from Pennsylvania.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dred_Scott_v._Sandford#Influence_of_President_Buchanan

it also amuses me that Scott could have had freedom at almost anytime that he was in Louisiana, Minnesota, Wisconsin or Illinois.

Blogger Emmanuel Mateo-Morales July 13, 2015 4:31 PM  

"Ever read Transmetropolitan by Warren Ellis?"

Why? He's a limey prick, and worse than that, an enemy almost as bad as Alan Moore or Alan Moore's less talented clone, Grant Morrison.

Blogger bob k. mando July 13, 2015 4:32 PM  

111. Emmanuel Mateo-Morales July 13, 2015 4:24 PM
So the truth comes out, doesn't it you slave monger?



what slaves have i ever had?

Blogger Emmanuel Mateo-Morales July 13, 2015 4:41 PM  

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Anonymous Brother Thomas July 13, 2015 4:45 PM  

[Dripping with sarcasm] I'm shocked!... shocked!... that the Socialists sold out the Greek people!

Socialism is the fallacy that everyone can live at the expense of everyone else. In the end, socialism is based on theft and debt. The Greeks are out of both options.

The Greeks need to default and rebuild. Oh... but that would mean abandoning their socialist delusions. Delusions die hard and sometimes only when the deluded themselves expire.

Blogger bob k. mando July 13, 2015 4:58 PM  

115. Emmanuel Mateo-Morales July 13, 2015 4:41 PM
I am, of course, merely pointing out the fact that you're defending the so called right of people to own slaves.



no, i'm defending the principle of the rule of law, you fucking twit. the abolitionists had every bit as much right to campaign in the south against slavery as the slavers did to campaign in the north.

the Atlantic Slave Trade had been dead since ~1820 due to the West Africa Squadron.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Africa_Squadron

Virginia ( a slave state ) was the first state to ban importation of negro slaves. in 1778.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade#End_of_the_Atlantic_slave_trade


but it's good to see that you've got the same slobbering irrationality that set the Union to destroying the Constitution in the first place.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper July 13, 2015 5:16 PM  

To what KBT said, the media ought to think twice about who they support, Being mostly rabbits they won't of course but they . are expendable now and because of Clinton regarded as primary lawful targets. They won't last long in any case,

Sipsey Street to my amusement calls this the Clinton Doctrine.

As for boltholes, almost certainly. They had best hope that whoever takes over doesn't have the will or ability to get to them, Some people don't forgive.

Anonymous FriarBob July 13, 2015 5:45 PM  

@bob.k.mando

Are you deliberately misunderstanding me or just determined to find any excuse to blame the north for everything and to hell with reality?

Legally speaking, of course they were their property... within their own state borders. Outside their state borders, slave-state-x had no right to demand free-state-y give precedence to X's laws over Y's laws within Y's borders. The property laws ended at X's borders. Pretending otherwise is deliberately ignoring the very 10th amendment you claim would have prevented the problem.

And I never claimed they didn't have the right to free speech. I was intending to imply that it was a stupid exercise of their right to free speech. They had the right to push for all the territories to allow slaves. But it was also short-sighted and VERY stupid to do it.

Blogger rumpole5 July 13, 2015 6:19 PM  

Re: Daneistocracy - I think that any regular reader to this blog should automatically be entitled to some sort of educational credits!

Blogger automattthew July 13, 2015 6:29 PM  

Emmanuel Mateo-Morales, keep it civil.

Blogger Groot July 13, 2015 6:35 PM  

Or automattthew will stop the car, and go back there and deal with this himself. Honestly, boys!

Blogger automattthew July 13, 2015 6:46 PM  

I done already stopped the car.

Blogger automattthew July 13, 2015 6:48 PM  

By which I mean, Groot, look at comment 117.

Anonymous Giuseppe July 13, 2015 7:02 PM  

Tommy,
The Mafia evolved 60 - 70 years ago and still run things

Blogger bob k. mando July 13, 2015 7:25 PM  

121. FriarBob July 13, 2015 5:45 PM
The property laws ended at X's borders.


didn't dispute that.

however, there's no reason for scare quotes around property ... unless you intend to assert that they weren't really property.

i agree that the Fugitive Slave Law was a serious federal error.


121. FriarBob July 13, 2015 5:45 PM
They had the right to push for all the territories to allow slaves. But it was also short-sighted and VERY stupid to do it.


no more foolish than the North's demand that none of the territories allow slaves.

had the North simply allowed the South to go it's own way, slavery probably would have died, de facto as well as de jure, by 1900. just as with every other nation in the western hemisphere.

at which point, the South would have had no reason not to re-certify the Constitution.

the Civil War accomplished nothing but the absolute destruction of Law by Principle in these United States.



113. Emmanuel Mateo-Morales July 13, 2015 4:24 PM
So the truth comes out, doesn't it you slave monger?



why do we "Remember the Alamo", Emmanuel?

i give you a heent:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_Texas
"The governors feared the growth in the Anglo-American population in Texas, and for various reasons, by the early 19th century, they and their superiors in Mexico City disapproved of expanding slavery. In 1829 the Guerrero decree conditionally abolished slavery throughout Mexican territories. It was a decision that increased tensions with slaveholders among the Anglo-Americans.

After the Texas Revolution ended in 1836, the Constitution of the Republic of Texas made slavery legal. The General Provisions of the Constitution forbade any slave owner from freeing his slaves without the consent of Congress and forbade Congress from making any law that restricted the slave trade or emancipated slaves."

the whole "Texas Independence" thing was founded on the right to own slaves.

which is why it's absurd to suggest that it was "understood" that joining the US was in perpetuity. you're telling me that the same Anglo settlers who fought a war against Mexico for the specific purpose of keeping their slaves in 1835 would turn around and join the United States ten years later in 1845 ... when Yankees had been beating the drum for abolition since BEFORE the Revolution?

absurd.

and one last quiz:
were more Negroes shipped east across the Indian Ocean
or
west across the Atlantic?

Anonymous Grinder July 13, 2015 7:48 PM  

118. Anonymous Brother Thomas July 13, 2015 4:45 PM
[Dripping with sarcasm] I'm shocked!... shocked!... that the Socialists sold out the Greek people!

Socialism is the fallacy that everyone can live at the expense of everyone else. In the end, socialism is based on theft and debt. The Greeks are out of both options.

The Greeks need to default and rebuild. Oh... but that would mean abandoning their socialist delusions. Delusions die hard and sometimes only when the deluded themselves expire.


Socialism is based on debt and theft? Does that mean that a country that has debt and theft is socialist? If not, what distinguishes a socialist state from a non-socialist state?

Anonymous freddie_mac1 July 13, 2015 7:54 PM  

Listening to discussions about the "new" bailout package this morning, and I was baffled that the creditors are doubling down on taxes again ... even tho the Greeks don't pay them. (Isn't tax avoidance the national sport?) Why not try loosening labor regs, privatizing State-owned assets/businesses (even partially), removing barriers to entrepreneurship, etc? Oh, right: things like that might actually *strengthen* the Greek economy.

Public assistance comments from waay upthread: I'm all in favor of a safety net, but not a safety *hammock*. Yes, public assistance should be limited (6-12mos?), and during that period the recipient would be required to create a plan (with a counselor) to return to self-sufficiency.

I'd like to see an assessment of the person's skills and interests, what sorts of opportunities are available, what sort of training would lead to a secure future (trade schools anyone? my electrician says his company can't fill all the open positions they have). Stop this crap about how a college degree is the only path to a better future; not everyone is cut out for college *and that's okay*.

Anonymous Antonio. July 13, 2015 8:15 PM  

I'm wondering if someone can explain exactly how direct democracy works in a country of 300+ million.

Everyone votes on the HHS budget, on whether to fund the Ronald Reagan museum? On the budget for the Italian diplomatic mission?

That's just stupid.

Blogger Sam Hall July 13, 2015 8:32 PM  

How about this for the right to vote:

1. You must be Head of a Household ( defined as a person who provides at least 51% of the household's costs and the household contains at least one dependant.) Note that a widower or divorced man or woman who has at least one child at home is a Head of Household.
2. You own a piece of land, say 1/2 acre at least.
3. You or any member of your Household hasn't taken welfare in the last five years.

Anonymous Discard July 13, 2015 9:03 PM  

Sam Hall: If you don't include "White" and "Man" among your new criteria for voting, you're committing national re-suicide.

Anonymous zen0 July 13, 2015 9:28 PM  

Back to debt strategy:

'Shemittah' Bill to Halt Debt Repayments Passes First Reading
In the spirit of the Shemittah, the Knesset on Monday passed on its first reading a law to prevent debt collection for 3 years.


Shemittah = Sabbath year, the seventh year.

In the spirit of the Shemittah, the seventh Sabbatical year, the Knesset on Monday passed on its first reading a new measure that will prevent government-licensed sheriffs from seizing property for the payment of debts from people who just can't afford to pay.

The law, proposed by Justice Minister Ayelet Shaked, will be sent back to various committees for review and is likely to come up for a final vote in the Knesset's winter session. Supporters believe it will easily pass into law. The law is expected to save Israelis struggling with bills some NIS 10 billion.


One brick at a time. What is wrong with this one brick?

Blogger Sam Hall July 13, 2015 9:30 PM  

Discard
The idea is to limit the vote to people who have skin in the game.

Note the side effect of requiring ownership of at least a 1/2 acre, most of the SJWs live in apartments or condominiums, no land.

Anonymous TroperA July 13, 2015 9:34 PM  

Discard, under his criteria, most of the people who vote WILL be white men...

I'd offer a few more provisos:

No one who serves the government or is employed by it can vote--unless they're a veteran who has either seen combat or has served a number of years in the armed forces. Combat veterans get to vote in perpetuity no matter what their future financial/property-owning status.

No one who receives corporate welfare can vote. If you own a company that accepts tax breaks, you no get vote. If you received government assistance to go to school, you don't get to vote until 5 years after the aid was received. This ensures that handouts will always come at a cost.

Anonymous zen0 July 13, 2015 9:34 PM  

Back to the slavery issue:

Slaver Flags of Islam

If romanticizing Dixie is wrong, so is romanticizing those ancient African cultures so beloved by amateur anthropologists and professional sociologists with more plastic tribal jewelry than sense. Slavery was an indigenous African and Middle Eastern practice. Not to mention an indigenous practice in America among indigenous cultures.

If justice demands that we pull down the Confederate flag everywhere, even from the top of the orange car sailing through the air in the freeze frame of an old television show, then what possible justification is there for all the faux Aztec knickknacks? Even the worst Southern plantation owners didn’t tear out the hearts of their slaves on top of pyramids. The romanticization of Aztec brutality plays a crucial role in the mythology of Mexican nationalist groups like La Raza promoting the Reconquista of America today.


Surely Emmanuel Mateo-Morales is not romanticizing his La Raza roots is he?

Anonymous zen0 July 13, 2015 9:42 PM  

131. Antonio.

I'm wondering if someone can explain exactly how direct democracy works in a country of 300+ million.

Everyone votes on the HHS budget, on whether to fund the Ronald Reagan museum? On the budget for the Italian diplomatic mission?

That's just stupid.


Don't be silly.

Anonymous Jim Milo July 13, 2015 9:44 PM  

zen0:

A lot of leftists are lawyers. I've seen it in action. Used to be NDP (Canadian Socialist party pretending to be Tony Blairish). No group of people were more backstabbing and dishonorable and hypocritical. This was years ago when I was politically ignorant, but their talk masked their walk.

Not that the other two mainline parties are much better, but the Right is rough trade, the Center brings you flowers and lube, and the Left is Bill Cosby. You wake up with a sore ass and a gas lighting actor.

Anonymous BGS July 13, 2015 11:00 PM  

I have long favored only people that pay net taxes would have the right to vote with the possible exception of veterans. People with govt jobs wouldn't be able to vote for bigger govt, nor would those on benefits. Although it would be hard to extract rent seekers like Buffet who got most of his money from buying property from corrupt/incompetent govt workers.

Anonymous Jack Amok July 13, 2015 11:10 PM  

The elites have long planned for such an uprising: they are ready to slaughter us.

More likely, though, they have prepared bolt holes they can escape to when it does finally collapse. The media will cover for them.


No, it's just been far too long since any of them had a close encounter with a lamppost. They assume no large groups will fight back, because no large groups have fought back in at least three (Europe) or six(US) generations. They believe their own propaganda (partly because they have to, there's no viable Plan B that preserves their lifestyle) and double down every time they're forced to.

Everybody else understands that to slaughter the elites will entail demolishing a good chunk of our society, which people are understandably reluctant to do while day to day life is not completely hopeless. You could say the Elites are holding civilization hostage, threatening to shoot the old boy if we don't do what they say.

Problem for them is they're holding him in a choke-hold and he's going to die pretty soon anyway, at which point they have no more hostage.

Anonymous FriarBob July 14, 2015 12:24 AM  

@bob.k.mando

no, the "scare" quotes were more of "sarcasm" quotes... for the same reason that they were property within X's borders but not within Y's. In one state they were legally property. Within another they were not. It would be vaguely analogous to a person buying MJ in a state where it's currently legal, losing it / having it stolen / etc, and then calling the police in a state where it's not legal demanding help finding their missing/stolen "property" (as the non-legal state would see it, at least)...

Anonymous kjj July 14, 2015 1:15 AM  

Corruption in the US, at least at the Federal level, could be knocked down to manageable levels by growing the House of Representatives to one member per 30,000 people, like it was in the beginning.

That means about 10,000 representatives today. They would meet and vote electronically, and they would live in their communities year-round.

For bonus points, repeal the 17th and go back to state-appointed senators.

Today, it is very easy to lobby ~535 people, all with offices in a small area. Tomorrow, it could be very hard to lobby 10,000 reps, plus every state legislator in the country.

Direct democracy is an interesting idea, but hard to see how it would work at our size. Quorum rules would be critical. Without good quorum rules, every issue would be voted in favor of the minority that cares greatly about that issue, and you could easily end up with worse corruption than we have now.

Not necessarily unsolvable problems, but a claim that "direct democracy cannot be as corrupt as our current system" without more detail, is neither an axiom nor a proven claim.

Anonymous kjj July 14, 2015 1:29 AM  

Lots of comments regarding military suffrage. History suggests that it is unwise for a military to be its own boss. If suffrage is reduced greatly, but includes active military, that's what we'll end up with.

In my opinion, active military should fall in the "get more from government than they pay in" and be excluded from the vote. But, upon retirement, an honorable discharge should provide lifetime suffrage, either automatically, or at some minimum bar (like literacy, for example).

We are rapidly approaching the point where any standard for voting is going to be desirable. We all need to push our states to create or maintain the minimum bar at "proven citizenship". "Citizenship + literacy" would be good, but would require either a tricky amendment, or a bloody revolution, and if we are going to do either of those, we should aim a bit higher.

Blogger automattthew July 14, 2015 1:49 AM  

"For bonus points, repeal the 17th and go back to state-appointed senators."

For survival points, repeal the Constitution and go back to the Articles of Confederation.

Blogger rho July 14, 2015 2:06 AM  

No, it's just been far too long since any of them had a close encounter with a lamppost. They assume no large groups will fight back, because no large groups have fought back in at least three (Europe) or six(US) generations.

It's fun to make jokes about undecorated lamp posts, but when it comes to actually stringing people up, the mob won't make for the CEO of Goldman Sachs. For one, they don't know who they are; and for two, they couldn't find them even if they did. If it comes to mob rule, the victims are more likely to be Assistant Bank Managers of some regional bank in Brokedick County.

Direct democracy has the same problem. It's hundreds of thousands of issues all vying for attention, when maybe 1% of the population can fully comprehend 30% of them. Direct democracy won't fix the problem in the U.S., because the scale of the problem is not addressable by direct democracy.

Antonio made the point well enough: Everyone votes on the HHS budget, on whether to fund the Ronald Reagan museum? On the budget for the Italian diplomatic mission?

The Federal government makes those decisions. If you want to move to direct democracy, great--stupid, irrelevant, and yet important decisions still have to be made by somebody. Maybe the answer is "ZERO MONEYS BITCHEZZ," but like all things it comes with a cost. Nobody cares if the RR museum is a cardboard box near a quiet San Diego intersection, but China, Russia, Mexico, Saudi Arabia and possibly Canada might balk at the idea that their embassies could become trailer parks if enough Americans voted at Change.org.

(If you disagree, remove all non-American parts from your $299 Internet machine and see if you can post a reply.)

Blogger bob k. mando July 14, 2015 2:17 AM  

142. FriarBob July 14, 2015 12:24 AM
no, the "scare" quotes were more of "sarcasm" quotes..


*pinches bridge of nose*

you do understand that Abolition is a rather odd position in human history? that if anything, it's the "non-Slavery" position of the North which was historically odd?

that even today, slavery is still practiced?

sigh.

even so, you know what the proper answer to the Fugitive Slave Act was?

...

Secession.

Blogger rho July 14, 2015 2:34 AM  

that if anything, it's the "non-Slavery" position of the North which was historically odd

Historically, all kinds of things are normal that you'd stroke out if they happened in your house.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper July 14, 2015 2:34 AM  

Jack Amok your 141 post was gold. Well done.

Blogger automattthew July 14, 2015 2:56 AM  

rho, why are you here? What is your end goal?

Do you like the ankles? Are they tasty?

Blogger rho July 14, 2015 3:04 AM  

21. automattthew July 14, 2015 2:58 AM
automattthew, keep it civil.


It's your board, you tell me.

Anonymous Heaviside July 14, 2015 10:09 AM  

Japan and Germany are the world's largest creditor nations. The United States is the world's largest debtor nation. I could see rule by creditors turning out nicely, for once.

Blogger bob k. mando July 14, 2015 10:54 AM  

148. rho July 14, 2015 2:34 AM
Historically, all kinds of things are normal that you'd stroke out if they happened in your house.


*facepalm*

historically, Caligula might establish a brothel of the Senator's wives in my living room.

that doesn't mean that it's "appropriate" for me to put scare quotes around the statement that "Caligula has turned my living room into a brothel."

Anonymous Jack Amok July 14, 2015 11:23 AM  

It's fun to make jokes about undecorated lamp posts, but when it comes to actually stringing people up, the mob won't make for the CEO of Goldman Sachs. For one, they don't know who they are; and for two, they couldn't find them even if they did. If it comes to mob rule, the victims are more likely to be Assistant Bank Managers of some regional bank in Brokedick County.

You don't seem to have comprehended the rest of my comment, the part about "holding civilization hostage." You also don't - for all your claims about "Historically, all kinds of things are normal" - know much history. Since Americans are the New Romans, maybe take a look through Roman history. When an emperor got deposed, his cronies got slaughtered. The new bosses knew where to find them.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza July 14, 2015 12:23 PM  

I'm sick for Greece, I knew this mess was arriving but never fathomed a hideous technocracy (already installed stateside inserting unreal, unlivable austerity) would take over. Meanwhile the other options in a local economy will success, Greece will make it without these soulless thieves whom attached debt they didn't even owe to innocent Greece.

Anonymous FriarBob July 14, 2015 12:31 PM  

@bkmando

By your "logic" we should immediately repeal the first and second amendments since those are also historically uncommon positions too, and many parts of the world currently deny their peons free speech, freedom of religion, and any right to be armed.

Anonymous Antonio July 14, 2015 2:06 PM  

The solution to corruption is simple: limit campaign contributions.

The idea of direct democracy, on the other hand is something only a child could believe is viable.

Blogger bob k. mando July 14, 2015 2:37 PM  

156. FriarBob July 14, 2015 12:31 PM
By your "logic" we should immediately repeal the first and second amendments


you seem to have lost track of the conversation.

this secondary tangent started out with me questioning your use of scare/sarcasm quotes. unless you're going to start using scare quotes around "1st Amendment" or "2nd Amendment", you've got no dog in this tangent.

rho has taken it to a tertiary tangent about historically un/usual things that might happen in my living room, which is what you're trying to reconflate.

slaves are property. to pretend otherwise is absurd.


i have to admit though, asserting that the 2nd is historically unusual also amuses. through almost all of history, men have gone about armed on a day to day basis. simply as a matter of self defense against large predators or for hunting purposes. the idea of banning weapons seems mostly to occur to large states with a significant population that they might want to oppress.

it's the banning of weapons which is historically less common, not the reverse.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_keep_and_bear_arms
"The right to keep and bear arms (often referred to as the right to bear arms or to have arms) is the people's right to have their own arms for their defense as described in the philosophical and political writings of Aristotle, Cicero"

Anonymous FriarBob July 14, 2015 5:11 PM  

Yeah I was wrong about the second amendment historically speaking. I mentioned it because you take into account actions of other modern countries. By that standard it fits. But not by historical standards.

But it's not any smarter to throw the baby out with the bathwater than to assume the ancients *always* had it right. Many things they did. But not always. Slavery is one of the latter.

Blogger bob k. mando July 14, 2015 8:34 PM  

159. FriarBob July 14, 2015 5:11 PM
But it's not any smarter to throw the baby out with the bathwater than to assume the ancients *always* had it right. Many things they did. But not always. Slavery is one of the latter.



this is not a discussion about whether slavery is morally 'right' or not.

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