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Wednesday, July 29, 2015

The end of the public school

I tend to agree. As state and local money gets tighter, something is going to give. And one of those things is going to be the public schools, because kids don't vote and elderly Boomers are much more concerned about keeping the public money flowing in their direction than they are about the future:
Public education is losing ground. It is being undermined at every turn. This is due to more than the Christian contingent. People everywhere are taking control of their children’s education. The Internet is making this possible. As time marches on, tools and information will be even more accessible. This trend will not be reversed.

Why not? Funding. The system takes gobs of money. Gobs. It inhales taxpayer money and then wastes it like any other bureaucratic welfare-state system does.

Resources flee over time from those individuals and institutions that misallocate capital. Competition eats them alive. Resources also flee over time from individuals and institutions that break God’s law. By giving the state jurisdiction over the education of our children, this is exactly what we have done over the last 300 years. We have already paid for that choice. We have more to pay. In the meantime, the institution is coming to an end.
Sometimes, good things happen for bad reasons. The end of the 18th century indoctrination system imported from Germany is an idea whose time has long past. Technology and economics are in the process of killing it.

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186 Comments:

Blogger Alexander July 29, 2015 2:21 PM  

I have heard people lament e-readers because it means books are too widespread. Their authority can't end soon enough.

Blogger Rabbi B July 29, 2015 2:24 PM  

"Technology and economics are in the process of killing it."

Good riddance. May it never recover.

Blogger James Dixon July 29, 2015 2:27 PM  

The sooner the public school system dies the better.

Blogger Sparx401 July 29, 2015 2:28 PM  

Liberals: "Parents teaching kids values/religion? ABUSE!"

Cuckservative: "Ugh, homeschooling? That's so extremist and antisocial. Why not be a team player?"

Blogger Rabbi B July 29, 2015 2:28 PM  

Now I just need to figure out how to get 75% of my property taxes back from these worthless institutions masquerading as schools.

Anonymous p-dawg July 29, 2015 2:29 PM  

That's not even close to the only one of the Creator's laws that we break on a normal, daily basis. Nor the only one for which we still have payment due.

Anonymous NorthernHamlet July 29, 2015 2:29 PM  

VD,

With how quickly technology is magnifying information overload though, how do you think people will be able to navigate this dense landscape in another 5 or 10 years. The ebook comment above is relevant here: look at the amount of unique books put out in the past five years alone.

Without gatekeepers, what do you imagine? Will parents even have the navigational skill to teach their children?

Anonymous Lulabelle (68) July 29, 2015 2:31 PM  

Warning: anecdote alert: I've come across quite a few secular homeschooling families. And for them.....a hearty "welcome". We'll need all the allies we can get when the government clamps down on homeschooling. Of course, the government may not do that......but I don't think the odds are in our favor.

Anonymous Soga July 29, 2015 2:32 PM  

NorthernHamlet, they couldn't do worse than public school teachers.

At least parents are less inclined to engage in hands-on sex education with children.

Blogger Tiny Tim July 29, 2015 2:34 PM  

It needs to die.

But what are they going to learn to do that can actually provide a future?

There are only so many people needed to service drones?

Execution squads possibly?:

Blogger Tiny Tim July 29, 2015 2:37 PM  

It is child abuse to have your kids in the public school.

When questioned I always say "I would rather have them uneducated and ignorant than in the public schools."

Now having said that, my kids tend to excel in any endeavor where public school kids are mixed in. The parents and adult leaders say quite often, "oh good, the ---- kids are here".

Nothing special, they just aren't dumbed down obamacare drug addicts who can't think on their own.

Blogger Rabbi B July 29, 2015 2:38 PM  

"Without gatekeepers, what do you imagine? Will parents even have the navigational skill to teach their children?"

Navigational skills are not the problem and they can be learned relatively quickly. Parents need to get over silly notion that they are not qualified to teach their children or that they don't have the time or whatever other excuse they use to abdicate their responsibility to the most treasured legacy they will ever have.

It's a matter of priorities and getting them straight. I never hear how difficult the internet is, but only parents bemoaning their perceived inadequacy to get their kids an education outside the public asylums. The options available today are simply too numerous for parents to cry about how ill-equipped they think they are.

The choice is between responsible parenting or credit-card parenting: pay now or pay later .

Blogger Bodichi (0031) July 29, 2015 2:40 PM  

It can't end soon enough.

Anonymous NorthernHamlet July 29, 2015 2:41 PM  

Soga,

NorthernHamlet, they couldn't do worse than public school teachers.

I don't disagree. Public school teachers aren't particular adaptable to technology or changing information landscapes. But neither really are most parents.

I more interested in how Vox views this going generally (ebooks, schooling, etc), what with his possible belief that all of this represents a movement away from gatekeepers.

Blogger Tiny Tim July 29, 2015 2:43 PM  

And don't forget the practical skills either when taking on education.

My Son was in a "WALLy MARTinez" this weekend at 6:30 pm with my Wife and went to the restroom. As my Son turned from the urinal a vibrant was standing behind him (which of course he already knew as he was already at code red) and flashed his K-Bar and said "what you got?". Well, it went down hill from there for the recent immigrant. I will leave out the juicy details for obvious reasons but that vibrant was begging within seconds and ran out of the bathroom.

I am very proud of him. He went into full beast mode.

Blogger grendel July 29, 2015 2:43 PM  

It doesn't take a fancy curriculum to teach your child to read and do basic arithmetic. Once they can do that, they can teach themself anything else they need to know.

Anonymous Quartermaster July 29, 2015 2:43 PM  

@7 It may be a bit difficult at first for parents that were raised as unthinking drones. However, as they educate their kids they will catch up and will end up learning more than their kids do.

Anonymous Krul July 29, 2015 2:43 PM  

Fun fact: the Communist Manifesto contains a list of 10 measures to begin the process of destroying bourgeois society. On this list, item number 10 is "Free education for all children in public schools."

So it looks like capitalism is burying communism in education. Pretty cool, huh? Now if only we could do something about items number 2* and 5**...

*"2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax."
**"5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly."

Anonymous Bz July 29, 2015 2:45 PM  

It will be hotly defended first. Teachers are usually a powerful group or union, and indoctrination is furthermore the life force of the leftist complex. They won't let go of this easily.

Looking at the US, public schools do underperform badly, so if the local tax money dries up it might seem reasonable to cut ... However, due to its political pull I'd expect schooling to be federalized first.

Something along the lines of "The children are our future, and in a world full of competition, we must make sure ALL our children receive a top notch education! At the same time, local government is increasingly incapable of providing the funding this requires. Therefore, I as President am today putting forth this proposal ..." (15 minute applause)

Anonymous Donn #0114 July 29, 2015 2:51 PM  

But where will we warehouse our yutes whose parents won't/can't homeschool? I mean public education really is just entertaining prison on the installment plan for most of them. Maybe we could build more basketball courts and skate parks? Or issue them each an xbox and a couple of joints a day?

Any of those are better than public school for the most part.

Anonymous Donn #0114 July 29, 2015 2:53 PM  

Bz @19 You're entirely right it will be federalized before long.

Blogger Joshua Dyal July 29, 2015 2:54 PM  

Without gatekeepers, what do you imagine? Will parents even have the navigational skill to teach their children?

Yes. Either that, or they'll find trustworthy gatekeepers of their choosing rather than of the government's.

Blogger Joshua Dyal July 29, 2015 2:58 PM  

But what are they going to learn to do that can actually provide a future?

There are only so many people needed to service drones?

Execution squads possibly?:


With any luck, you'll soon be able to make a good living picking up bounties on illegal immigrants. Heck, even paying a $5,000/head bounty is a heckuva lot cheaper than what we're spending on them annually now.

Anonymous KBT July 29, 2015 3:02 PM  

Just seems almost literally like a baby out with the bathwater situation. I don't see how homeschooling is a total solution in the slightest. Most of the parents in some areas can't get through a day without some major disaster in their own lives. Every parent is equipped to teach history, science, math, programming, etc?

Yeah, I know the unions and the establishment are big and scary, but isn't getting up and fighting the good fight a common refrain around here? Sorry, but I think educating the population well is the foundation of a successful society in a technological age. I'd much rather have a well run, cost efficient public system. Teach some entrepreneurship early on, and we could make the tech boom look like a sparkler in the years to come.

So what if some jackass advocated free education in his little Manifesto. That doesn't invalidate the basic concept. Just because the current system is a vast clusterfuck also does not invalidate it.

Blogger Cail Corishev July 29, 2015 3:05 PM  

That's an interesting theory. I've been assuming that the public schools would be one of the last things they'd let go of, since they're so critical to leftist indoctrination. In fact, I've been watching for a push to outlaw homeschooling (a serious push; they take little stabs at it all the time). But public schools are incredibly expensive, and the Boomers are incredibly selfish, so who knows. Let's hope so.

NorthernHamlet, they couldn't do worse than public school teachers.

That's the point you have to keep driving home.

"But I was terrible at algebra! What if I can't help her with her problems?"
"You couldn't do any worse than the public school."
"What if a parent beats his kids for getting C's?"
"It couldn't be any worse than the public school."
"I think that one family just lets the kids watch TV all day."
"It couldn't be any worse than the public school."

People are afraid to fail (or to let others fail) at something that the schools have been failing at forever (because it's not their purpose). They're like a baseball manager who refuses to put in a reliever because he gave up three straight homers in yesterday's game, when the pitcher on the mound just gave up six in a row. And his arm just fell off.

Blogger borderwalker July 29, 2015 3:06 PM  

Anecdote 1: Twenty years ago, when we started homeschooling our first two children, I expected to meet a lot of oddballs and religious zealots, because that’s the only people who homeschooled when I was growing up.

I was surprised by what I found: The not-particularly-religious people who had (like us) given up on the public school system outnumbered the homeschoolers with religious motiviations. A lot of the available curriculum materials were overtly religious, but that didn’t surprise me since they’d been at it a lot longer than the rest of us.

I was also surprised by the number of people with exceptionally intelligent or talented children who’d withdrawn them from the public school system for the simple reason that their kids were bored to death and not reaching their full potential.

I can only conclude, from the article and discussion here, that the trend I observed two decades ago is accelerating.

Anecdote 2: Some SJWs realize that the public school system is broken, and a few want their kids to get a decent education. (I don't have it in me to call them hypocrites.)

I know one couple that took their kids out of public schools because the public schools are insufficiently progressive, lol.

Blogger Alexander July 29, 2015 3:08 PM  

Sitting the kid down in front of wikipedia would be a better alternative to public school. Same great indoctrination you've grown accustomed to, only with a teacher that speaks English, a better than 50/50 chance of a material fact entering the brain, and no chance of being sodomized by teacher or being attacked by the under privileged.

So that's a baseline for a parent who can't google 'western classics'. Anything beyond that is just a bonus.

Blogger Corvinus July 29, 2015 3:08 PM  

Good news. But until the Germans and other such nations get rid of their compulsory public school laws, their future is still in danger.

Blogger borderwalker July 29, 2015 3:09 PM  

Anecdote 1: Twenty years ago, when we started homeschooling our first two children, I expected to meet a lot of oddballs and religious zealots, because that’s the only people who homeschooled when I was growing up.

I was surprised by what I found: The not-particularly-religious people who had (like us) given up on the public school system outnumbered the homeschoolers with religious motiviations. A lot of the available curriculum materials were overtly religious, but that didn’t surprise me since they’d been at it a lot longer than the rest of us.

I was also surprised by the number of people with exceptionally intelligent or talented children who’d withdrawn them from the public school system for the simple reason that their kids were bored to death and not reaching their full potential.

I can only conclude, from the article and discussion here, that the trend I observed two decades ago is accelerating.

Anecdote 2: Some SJWs realize that the public school system is broken, and a few want their kids to get a decent education. (I don't have it in me to call them hypocrites.)

I know one couple that took their kids out of public schools because the public schools are insufficiently progressive, lol.

Blogger Corvinus July 29, 2015 3:10 PM  

But public schools are incredibly expensive, and the Boomers are incredibly selfish, so who knows. Let's hope so.

@25 Cail Corishev
Actually, the liberal Boomers seem to support the public skoolz quite fanatically. It appears to be the more conservative ones who are willing to toss them overboard.

Anonymous Donn #0114 July 29, 2015 3:12 PM  

Joshua Dyal @23 Good idea but they should have to dress in old West outfits and pay out in gold coins. Otherwise where's the fun? I mean 'Fill your hand you son of a bitch!' just doesn't sound right without a pair of Colt Dragoons or a Peacemaker and a carbine in each hand.

Blogger Tiny Tim July 29, 2015 3:13 PM  

If you can't teach your child better than Ms. Gomez or Mr. Robertson or whoever, than educate yourself so you can.

How can people with a teaching certificate who have never had a real job and don't care a whit about your children teach them better than a loving parent on your worst day?

Most parents just want to dump their kids off for the day so they can take pharmaceuticals and Facebook or watch novellas. We all know that is true.

Anonymous Soga July 29, 2015 3:14 PM  

If we're bringing back bounty hunting, there better be a guy dressed like Boba Fett that also uses a flamethrower. Jetpack would be a bonus.

Anonymous Fran July 29, 2015 3:16 PM  

But the children!!! How will we indoctrinate them now?!

Blogger Tiny Tim July 29, 2015 3:19 PM  

What will the women do who drop their 3 week old off at pre-k for Chester the Molester to teach life lessons to?

You must start education as early as possible with certified educators or they will be dumb as mud when they graduate high screwel.

Anonymous NorthernHamlet July 29, 2015 3:22 PM  

Cail

That's the point you have to keep driving home.

Perhaps I'm not conveying myself clearly. I fully support homeschooling and for my kids, it's homeschooling, all the way.

However, I seriously doubt the ease with which people think it will be possible in a world drowning in information. Theres a good degree of complexity to the issue, but there are plenty of people who don't know: 1. How to copy/paste 2. how to choose a reliable source 3. how to even read at all. Imagine a world with 1000s of billions of books.

For those claiming that schools are more likely to abuse children, I'm willing to bet family members are far more often the culprits than otherwise.

Blogger Guitar Man July 29, 2015 3:22 PM  

We are homeschooling in NJ. Yeah. Actually, at the moment, it is probably one of the best states for homeschooling rights. My wife literally does nothing that involves the town, county, or state. We fear that it will change as it is obvious how much homeschooling has increased in NJ. Most are Christians, but there are many libertarian and liberal types out there.

Anonymous Donn #0114 July 29, 2015 3:23 PM  

Soga @33 I'll take Clint Eastwood or John Wayne over Temuera Morrison any day.

And could we get some Captchas that actually look like the item were supposed to identify. They said 'food' then showed a picture of what looked like raw sewage (no idea if it was it was served in a bowl as the shot was too tight), what looked like a center piece of poisonous weeds, some helpfully non-foodish things like a fuzzy long distance shot of something and a colorful collection of things that were probably too angular to be food. Then more maybe food like items, was that a cup of starbucks coffee or Ivar's chowder? Does it count if it is coffee? Does wine in the bottle count? What if there's a still life of fruit in the background does that count? Why can't we just have barely legible numbers like we used too?

Blogger Cail Corishev July 29, 2015 3:23 PM  

But where will we warehouse our yutes whose parents won't/can't homeschool?

You can still have private schools. When you take away the massive funding advantage of the public schools so that people don't have that "free" option, you create a much bigger market for private schools that can service more than rich people and Catholics. The neighborhood one-room schoolhouse could come back with a new look: a housewife teaches a dozen kids for a few hours a day in an extra room of the house, charges $1-2K for each one, and makes a very nice side income.

For that matter, there could still be public schools -- locally run and operated for real, without funding with strings attached from feds and state. Do that, and you'll find people being much more sensible about teaching kids the basics and not chasing after every new fad that has grant money attached.

Also, many public school kids spend some time at day-care between the end of the school day and when the first parent gets off work. So the schools don't warehouse them perfectly anyway. Just warehouse them all day at the day-care, if that's the goal.

Think about this: when the government provides a good or service for everyone, what do we expect? When it feeds people, we expect it to provide basic sustenance, not 7-course meals. When it provides housing, we expect basic apartments, not mansions with pools. But in education, we somehow think that a government-run, one-size-fits-all, free-to-everyone system is going to generate scholars. It's one of the dumbest things that everyone believes.

If we dropped that silly notion and admitted that the public schools are the equivalent of government cheese -- a last resort for kids who have nowhere else to go -- then maybe we'd be able to get them to concentrate on the 3 R's again, since that's what those kids are most likely to need and be able to handle. But, of course, "raciss!"

Blogger RobertT July 29, 2015 3:24 PM  

24. KBT

Just because your kids go to public school doesn't mean they learn anything. You're leaving out the effectiveness issue. Kids want to learn and the public schools kill that. I have a 21 month old toddler in my household and that little tyke is like a sponge they way she loves to learn things. Teachers in the best schools in the Valley say they spend all their time on discipline. You can imagine what the other schools are like.

Blogger Guitar Man July 29, 2015 3:24 PM  

For those claiming that schools are more likely to abuse children, I'm willing to bet family members are far more often the culprits than otherwise.

Family members who mostly send their children to public schools for more abuse.

Blogger Rabbi B July 29, 2015 3:25 PM  

"I don't see how homeschooling is a total solution in the slightest."

The you need to open your eyes.

"Every parent is equipped to teach history, science, math, programming, etc?"

Why should that stop them?

"Sorry, but I think educating the population well is the foundation of a successful society in a technological age."

You think this is happening with public educators?

"I'd much rather have a well run, cost efficient public system."

Now you're just messin' with us.

"Just because the current system is a vast clusterfuck also does not invalidate it.'

Clusterfuck or not, the entire underlying premise of public education is deeply and dangerously flawed.

Anonymous Azimus July 29, 2015 3:26 PM  

Rabbi B:
"Parents need to get over silly notion that they are not qualified to teach their children or that they don't have the time or whatever other excuse they use to abdicate their responsibility to the most treasured legacy they will ever have. "


This is an excellent, excellent point. You are calling out more than a century of parents almost universally abdicating their responsibility. From schoolbooks to Holy Books in Sunday School.

Anonymous BoysMom July 29, 2015 3:28 PM  

@24 KBT, those parents can't get through a day without a crisis because that's how they were trained in the public schools. You don't need to be equipped with much to teach the basics. Once you get kids reading there are self-teaching curricula for everything. How did you think homeschoolers with many grade levels manage?

A few years ago I looked up the data for all the private schools I could find in my state and compared their average cost per student to the public schools. The private schools worked out significantly cheaper--about $5000 per child annually. I'm amused that none of the school voucher fans have picked up on that.

Blogger Alexander July 29, 2015 3:28 PM  

"Just because the current system is a vast clusterfuck also does not invalidate it.'

As usual, with a liberal idea it's always the implementation or the user who are at fault, and the outcome isn't what counts: the idea itself is never, ever wrong.

Blogger Tiny Tim July 29, 2015 3:29 PM  

Here is the difference in a public school kid and a homeschool kid.

In most situations, the homeschool kid will take charge and get it done (and actually have a tool box of practical skills) while the public school kid will wait for teacher...

Anonymous Nathanael July 29, 2015 3:30 PM  

It should be pointed out that everyone using different curriculum to education their children is only going to accelerate the fragmentation of American society.

Anonymous Donn #0114 July 29, 2015 3:30 PM  

Cail @39 You are right. I would love to see the return of the one room school house it was how my grandparents were taught and it worked. Local schools without fed interference would be a vast improvement for most.

Honestly I think they will do something awful like extend 'Job Corps' to the Jr High level maybe younger and simply warehouse and indoctrinate them there. I am never surprised by the depths of evil of the feds.

Blogger Cail Corishev July 29, 2015 3:30 PM  

Just seems almost literally like a baby out with the bathwater situation.

No, it's like pulling the baby out of the bath, and then throwing the feces out with the bathwater. That's the whole point: get the kid out of the shit.

Just because the current system is a vast clusterfuck also does not invalidate it.

Yes it does. "By their fruits you shall know them."

Blogger Cail Corishev July 29, 2015 3:31 PM  

I'd much rather have a well run, cost efficient public system.

While you're at it, I'd like a pony. One that pees Mountain Dew.

Blogger Tiny Tim July 29, 2015 3:32 PM  

"Nathaneal: It should be pointed out that everyone using different curriculum to education their children is only going to accelerate the fragmentation of American society."

That is about as ignorant a statement as I have ever read on the subject. You have to be joking???

Anonymous Lulabelle (68) July 29, 2015 3:35 PM  

"How can people with a teaching certificate who have never had a real job and don't care a whit about your children teach them better than a loving parent on your worst day?"

Great statement. Is there more than one poster with the handle "TIny Tim"?

Blogger Tiny Tim July 29, 2015 3:35 PM  

Face it, if you are against taking responsibility for your child's education and teaching them at home the lessons they need to be productive and successful...

then you are just plain lazy and utterly self absorbed.

Blogger Cail Corishev July 29, 2015 3:36 PM  

Corvinus @30, agreed. I guess the theory here is that, if the Boomers are forced to choose between the schools and their Medicare/etc, even the liberal ones will decide the schools have outlived their usefulness. I'm not convinced, but I hope he's right.

Blogger Tiny Tim July 29, 2015 3:36 PM  

No Lulabelle, only one pariah named Tiny Tim on here.

Anonymous Donn #0114 July 29, 2015 3:36 PM  

Cail - Ponies are pretty copious urinators do you really want that much mountain dew? How would you serve that to your guests? "Hey guys look what Babymay just squirted out fresh for us?"

I can't seem to keep on subject today. Somebody mentions something and 'bam' I'm off after the squirrel. Might be the over exposure to insecticides last night while we killed the yellow jackets.

Blogger Rabbi B July 29, 2015 3:38 PM  

"Theres a good degree of complexity to the issue, but there are plenty of people who don't know: 1. How to copy/paste 2. how to choose a reliable source 3. how to even read at all. Imagine a world with 1000s of billions of books."

Excuses are complicating. No excuses. No complications. Simple.

You're wringing your hands over nothing. These are non-factors. Do you really love and care for your kids? You have the most invested and the most to lose. Nobody else (to quote the Dark Lord) gives a 'quantum of a damn.'

What kind of message are we sending our kids if we are determined to disqualify ourselves? How does that inspire and motivate our kids to educate themselves? Are we going to teach them to rely on the so-called "experts" their entire lives, or are we going to teach them how to become the true experts themselves?

Anonymous Lulabelle (68) July 29, 2015 3:39 PM  

Ok, ty TT. It's just that sometimes, you make a heck of a lot of sense.......and other times, well.......you know, I hate to be impolite.

Blogger Tiny Tim July 29, 2015 3:39 PM  

Teach your children to think. Teach your children to reason. Give them a strong foundation in the basics. Instill in them a love for liberty and freedom and the Constitution.

And most importantly of all, preserve in them their natural love for their Creator and his Son, Jesus Christ.

They will turn out just fine and will dominate most public school kids in a good way.

Blogger Jim July 29, 2015 3:39 PM  

Sorry, but I think educating the population well is the foundation of a successful society in a technological age. I'd much rather have a well run, cost efficient public system.

Please. There is nothing to save and it will never, ever be cost efficient. Simply closing the public schools down and allocating maybe a fourth of the funding for school vouchers would create a better system than we have now.

The idea of public education is deeply harmful to a republic premised on freedom. As a basic example, look at how many holes have been punched in the First Amendment to make sure little Johnny doesn't rock the boat in the public system.

Blogger JartStar July 29, 2015 3:40 PM  

Public schools won't go away in the US, they will just turn in to public schools like the 3rd world has and everyone of any means will homeschool or send their children to private schools. Don't expect this change to happen overnight or evenly as some not-so-terrible public school districts will remain for decades, but eventually they will be too few to matter.

Blogger Tiny Tim July 29, 2015 3:41 PM  

No problem here Lulabelle. Why don't you call me on my extreme or confused views sometimes. Maybe you are misunderstanding, especially after some of the usual suspects twist what I say and go on the attack.

Anonymous Lulabelle (68) July 29, 2015 3:42 PM  

"53. Tiny Tim July 29, 2015 3:35 PM

Face it, if you are against taking responsibility for your child's education and teaching them at home the lessons they need to be productive and successful...

then you are just plain lazy and utterly self absorbed."

I sometimes hear mothers lamenting the fact that their children are home from school for the summer.......and these mothers can not wait for their kids to go back to school. And I wonder why did they even have children? It seems so strange to me to not want to have your children around.

Blogger Guitar Man July 29, 2015 3:42 PM  

Wow, so many child abusers out here today. How many of you pro-public schoolers have children?

Anonymous Clark July 29, 2015 3:43 PM  

We have home schooled our 3 children for 10 years now. My wife was very worried about her ability to teach. As it turns out, if you put any effort into teaching and making sure the kids do some work, you simply cannot screw up. Children are built to learn.

Children of parents that cannot successfully home school will not learn anything in public school anyway because they are too stupid or too dysfunctional.

Blogger Tiny Tim July 29, 2015 3:43 PM  

"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice". - Barry Goldwater

Blogger Rabbi B July 29, 2015 3:45 PM  

"As it turns out, if you put any effort into teaching and making sure the kids do some work, you simply cannot screw up"

Love covers a multitude of sins. :)

Anonymous Soga July 29, 2015 3:45 PM  

"It should be pointed out that everyone using different curriculum to education their children is only going to accelerate the fragmentation of American society."

This wasn't a problem in the 18th and 19th Centuries.

Blogger Tiny Tim July 29, 2015 3:46 PM  

Yes Lulabelle, I see neighbors carting off their babies to day care and they don't even work.

That is heartbreaking.

All this day care and public school garbage at its core has one purpose, to break up the family, destroy the natural bond of parent and child, and replace mommy and daddy with the state.

Obama said as much when he was in Africa.

Anonymous Difster VFM #109 July 29, 2015 3:47 PM  

Shutdown the Collectivist Education Camps

Blogger Guitar Man July 29, 2015 3:49 PM  

Haha, libertarian fascist!

Anonymous Clark July 29, 2015 3:49 PM  

Oh and I should point out that the reason I made my wife homeschool in the first place was not just that I wanted better academics, but that I wanted to accelerate the fragmentation of American society. That's a feature not a bug.

Blogger Guitar Man July 29, 2015 3:50 PM  

The purpose of the public school system is to make your children obedient little lemmings who bow to the state. That's it. Education is secondary. If you feel it is important that children learn about buttsex, strap ons, and other such nonsense, then you are a depraved and pathetic person.

Anonymous Lulabelle (68) July 29, 2015 3:51 PM  

Great quote from my archives (and relatively fresh - only a couple of months old!)

"If you want your kid to play the piano, you get private lessons, and no one has a problem with that. If you want her to dance, you enroll her in a private dance troupe, and no one has a problem with that. But if you want her to learn to read and write and get along with other human beings, suddenly that's a near-insurmountable task that should only be attempted by government-approved experts as a service that should be provided to all for free.

It makes no sense."
(Cail Corishev May 20, 2015 5:15 PM)

Blogger Rabbi B July 29, 2015 3:53 PM  

"Education is secondary."

That's mighty, mighty generous of you.

Anonymous NorthernHamlet July 29, 2015 3:54 PM  

Question: how many of you would teach your children MMA?

Now pretend there's 1,000,000 MMA dojos within 1 mile of your house. How do you choose one?

Anonymous Nathanael July 29, 2015 3:56 PM  

@51 Nope, it's a simple statement of fact, don't hyperventilate. I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad thing either, but it's what will happen. Education shapes worldview and gives people common points of reference. If kids are learning completely different versions of history, science, economics, etc., then that can only deepen cultural divides.

Anonymous Soga July 29, 2015 3:57 PM  

Word of mouth, NH. And review sites, where the reviews are by users, not gatekeeper reviewers.

Amazon works pretty well for finding what works well. The Amazon model would work here too.

Anonymous Nathanael July 29, 2015 3:57 PM  

@68 That's because both private and public schools were working off of more or less that same curriculum; that's not the case now. Just look at the evolution vs creation or liberal vs conservative version of history divides. I'm not saying that fragmentation is a bad thing, I'll be homeschooling my own kids, but it's what will happen.

Anonymous Soga July 29, 2015 4:00 PM  

How do you learn different versions of science?

Science seems pretty straightforward to me. Unless you're talking about TENS vs creation science, both of which aren't really science, but philosophy.

Anonymous NorthernHamlet July 29, 2015 4:00 PM  

Soga,

Amazon works pretty well for finding what works well. The Amazon model would work here too.

As I've posted before, Amazon's review system is heavily skewed, and in my opinion, largely worthless.

Word of mouth for 1 million dojos within 1 mile? Come on.

Blogger Karl July 29, 2015 4:02 PM  

related - Alabama’s governor makes surprising -- and scary -- education appointment (Washington Post - http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2015/07/29/alabamas-governor-makes-surprising-and-scary-education-appointment/)

What message is a governor sending to the public with an appointment like this?

QQ more, that's the message

Alabama Gov. Robert Bentley has tapped someone to your state’s Board of Education who never attended public schools, publicly declared that his children never will either, and actively supported a successful effort to defeat a vote on a school tax in a divisive campaign in his home county?

Bentley, a Republican, named Matthew Brown, a 28-year-old design engineer at the Baldwin County Highway Department, to the Alabama State Board of Education. Brown graduated in 2007 from Pensacola Christian College and attended Cumberland School of Law at Samford University, graduating in 2011.

Anonymous Nathanael July 29, 2015 4:02 PM  

@80 Also, blank slatism with genetics.

Anonymous BGS July 29, 2015 4:03 PM  

Keep in mind that English Second Language students cost over twice what white students do to educate. Some schools have 80+ languages to deal with
http://www.newhamrecorder.co.uk/news/education/over_100_languages_spoken_in_newham_schools_1_1411336

Blogger Tiny Tim July 29, 2015 4:04 PM  

The public schools are a cesspool. Many teachers are on drugs or into sexual deviancy.

Your child is in second grade with kids exposed to triple XXX porn daily, drug dealing, physical and sexual abuse, etc..

Many of these kids are bullys and mini-molesters and there is your sweet little child, a victim of these defective children (through no fault of their own but it doesn't change the fact that your child is in school with predators).





Anonymous Donn #0114 July 29, 2015 4:05 PM  

Yes but they didn't have anything called MMA when I was teaching my kids. We did some karate, judo, jujitsu, boxing, etc. My own school had been closed for years by the time I started my kids on more 'live' training so we needed friends and family and old students to fill in. It worked fine.

Now if I were picking a school near me instead of doing it myself I would go watch how they train. See what kind of people train there. Talk to the owners and the teachers and other students. How else would you pick? If there's a million schools within a mile of my house I am not sure what I would do because I haven't lived within a mile of a million people for decades. I'd probably move.

Blogger Cail Corishev July 29, 2015 4:06 PM  

NorthernHamlet, sorry, I should have removed your name from what I quoted, so it wouldn't look like I was replying to you.

On complexity: it can be overwhelming at first, no doubt. But there are plenty of homeschooling groups now, so you find one and ask questions. If your church is at all traditional, there will be some homeschooling parents there who will be glad to share some pointers. If you don't think you can handle picking and choosing materials, buy a curriculum from one of the many vendors. It'll cost more, but you'll have everything you need to get through the first year, and then you can adjust from there with some experience.

The good thing about homeschooling materials is that most of what you need has been around for ages. It's the schools that chase after whatever's new. But algebra will always be algebra. The growth of homeschooling might bring out lots of new algebra textbooks, but if you don't have the time or ability to judge them all, you can't go wrong using one that has already worked for years. When it comes time for Plato, there might be a lot of translations to choose from, but they're all still Plato. It's not like sending them off hoping they'll get some Plato, and they get a year of Marx and Hegel instead.

My parents thought about homeschooling us, but in 1974 (the year I went to kindergarten), the only people homeschooling were the Amish and a few compound-in-the-woods types. For resources, there might have been a couple books in the library about it, but that was about it. So they didn't, thinking they couldn't, and now they realize they should have.

On abuse: it's true that sexual abuse and major physical abuse like beatings is most likely to happen at home, done by a family member. But public school doesn't prevent that; it only makes it pause for several hours a day, 180 days a year. And that's not the only kind of abuse kids can get at public school. Their faith, intellectual curiosity, and ability to think logically all take a beating.

Blogger Moor July 29, 2015 4:06 PM  

@76 Yelp?

Or is the answer that I teach them how to choose the dojo themselves?

Anonymous Soga July 29, 2015 4:09 PM  

Nathaniel: How would that be any different from what we have now? Public schools just teach one orthodoxy, while beholden to ideology in return for funding. Private schools and homeschoolers teach another orthodoxy with less financial carrot-on-sticks.

The destruction of public schooling would reduce the number of blank-slatists. That's not accelerating fracturing.

NH: For a lot of products, Amazon has worked exceptionally well I and many others have found. It's probably the more politicized stuff you're thinking of that skews reviews, but I'm sure there are ways to fix that.

And yes, word of mouth. That's usually how you find out about books (in general, not just for teaching) to buy in the first place.

Anonymous BGS July 29, 2015 4:10 PM  

illegal immigrants. Heck, even paying a $5,000/head bounty is a heckuva lot cheaper than what we're spending on them annually now.

Maybe you can sell the rest of the body to an adult version of PP

Anonymous A Visitor July 29, 2015 4:12 PM  

Imagine if it does collapse! We could see the end to property taxes in our lifetimes! You can actually own what you bought instead of renting it from the government!

Anonymous Donn #0114 July 29, 2015 4:12 PM  

Moor @88 never let the kids choose. Most boys just don't care how often the mats get cleaned and disinfected. Saw a guy lose a knee from I want to say MERSA but something he caught on the mat.

Anonymous NorthernHamlet July 29, 2015 4:13 PM  

Cail, no worries.

Blogger Rabbi B July 29, 2015 4:14 PM  

Education shapes worldview and gives people common points of reference. "

Curriculum:

1. Learn how to read.

2. Learn how to write.

3. Learn how to add, subtract, multiply, and divide.

4. History (see #1)

5. Science (see #1)

6. Foreign language (see #1)

7. Rhetoric (see #1)

8. Logic (see #1 and #3)

9. Grammar/Literature/English (See #1 and #2)

Result: educated fragments capable of creating a cohesive and meaningful society. My shekels are with the side who is smart enough and courageous enough to reject a failed and denigrating system that literally destroys young lives by a thousand cuts and embraces an alternative which help them to grow up right.

The Seven Lesson Schoolteacher

Anonymous Donn #0114 July 29, 2015 4:14 PM  

A Visitor - You mean society or public school because if the govt is still around they will find a use for the tax dollars. No savings/rebates ever.

Anonymous Clark July 29, 2015 4:15 PM  

How do you pick a dojo? I asked around just a little bit and found the one run by the second ranked guy in the world in Okinawan Shorin-Ryu. It took about 2 days of asking some people. The kid loves it.

Blogger Rabbi B July 29, 2015 4:19 PM  

@74

Thanks Lulabelle (and Cail . . .)

+1

Anonymous Krul July 29, 2015 4:20 PM  

Re: NorthernHamlet,

It is a daunting task, no doubt, but wouldn't you rather have too many options than not enough? This problem is preferable to the opposite problem, in other words.

Blogger SirHamster (#201) July 29, 2015 4:22 PM  

Most of the parents in some areas can't get through a day without some major disaster in their own lives. Every parent is equipped to teach history, science, math, programming, etc?

I think you underestimate what people are capable of when they need to do so.

Anonymous RedJack #22 July 29, 2015 4:23 PM  

@24. KBT

My bride is a teacher at a public school (reverse Gramsci). Those kids whose parents bounce from crisis to crisis daily are not learning anything in the public schools either. They can't focus long enough to get anything done.

We send out child to a religious school. Partially because of the quality, but mostly because we want her to learn in a Christian environment. When we started, many attacked us as traitors to the nation and state. Of those who did, some have had their kids hurt in schools. Some have had their kids land in jail, or worse. But they are "well socialized".

There are those that we can't easily help. We are under no obligation to destroy our own children while trying to help them.

Blogger JDC July 29, 2015 4:24 PM  

In the past year we have had five friends who have made the decision to home school their kiddies. This is in part because they have been spending time with our kids and have realized that they are not sheltered troglodytes who are woefully behind in their schooling, but intelligent, polite and well adjusted.

This is of course anecdotal, but two of the families were hardcore public school devotees.

Blogger Cail Corishev July 29, 2015 4:25 PM  

It should be pointed out that everyone using different curriculum to education their children is only going to accelerate the fragmentation of American society.

You do realize that public schools buy textbooks from a variety of publishers, which come out with new ones all the time and are constantly pushing them to switch, right? Granted, they all follow the leftist party line, but there's still a wide variety of approaches. They bounce back and forth between New and Old Math, between phonics and "whole language," and so on. I guess the Common Core stuff now is supposed to enforce one curriculum to rule them all, but I don't know how widely that's been adopted.

In any case, I wouldn't be surprised if there's less fragmentation among homeschoolers, since most of them are trying to get back to the basics that worked pretty well for everyone 60 years ago. For instance, how many different languages are taught in public schools today? The local school here in a smallish town offers five -- including Mandarin, in a town that's 0.9% Asian. Not homeschoolers: they're all teaching Latin or Spanish, maybe French after that. It's the public schools that are obsessed with offering all sorts of electives, while the basics go to pot.

Anonymous NorthernHamlet July 29, 2015 4:32 PM  

Krul,

but wouldn't you rather have too many options than not enough?

Too many, but that's an entirely emotional decision. There's no indication that maximizing choice vs restricting it would lead to a better outcome here.

Think about it this way: I choose from 1 million or I let Vox present me two choices.

While people live to talk about wanting more choice in the abstract, research indicates we pragmatically only prefer 3-7 or something along those lines. Many people only prefer 2 from my experience.

Blogger Cail Corishev July 29, 2015 4:38 PM  

Word of mouth for 1 million dojos within 1 mile? Come on.

You don't have to consider them all. When you take your kids to buy new shoes, do you have them try on every pair at every shoe store in town? Or do you have them try on a few until they find some they like that fit at a reasonable price?

Granted, education is more important than a pair of shoes, so you're going to spend more time at it. But you don't have to try out every possibility. You ask your homeschooling neighbor what he uses, check it out, see if you like it. Repeat that process a few times, throw out the ones you don't like, compare the others and choose one. The same process you use for all the other choices in life.

And absolute worst case scenario: you choose badly and get a curriculum that sucks? Throw it out. Take the kids to the library once a week and encourage them to read as much as they want; take them on a few museum/historical day trips; find a few fun science experiments online for them to do; have them help you with practical tasks like cooking and changing the car's oil, quizzing them on the fractions involved in the process; and generally chat with them about the topics that pique their curiosity throughout the day, researching online with them if necessary. You'll still end up way ahead, even after having your "schooling" be a total bust.

Anonymous RedJack #22 July 29, 2015 4:39 PM  

Krul,

For us, in choosing where to train my then five now six year old, we looked at
1. Quality of the training. Does it reflect the goals we have for our girl (we decided those beforehand)
2. Skill set of the trainer. In this case what we were looking for is an instructor who trained a lot of younger kids. Not someone who mainly focused on adults.
3. Feedback from people we know both inside and outside our peer group.

Our girl is in a program that is probably not what we would do for a boy, but very focused on giving her skills to defend herself and spar. She has a promotion test on Saturday. We live in an area that has a large amount of MMA/Takwondo/Judo places that represent the spectrum from world class fighters and Olympians to Joe's Judo shack and Taxidermy.

The point is we, the parents, put the effort in to choose. We didn't farm it out to some state worker drone who doesn't know my girl, or us.

Anonymous Krul July 29, 2015 4:45 PM  

@105 RedJack,

Cool story.

So... is there any reason you addressed it to me?

Blogger Guitar Man July 29, 2015 5:06 PM  

Worst excuse against homeschooling: "There will be too many choices, it will destroy 'Murica!"

Blogger SirHamster (#201) July 29, 2015 5:07 PM  

Think about it this way: I choose from 1 million or I let Vox present me two choices.

While people live to talk about wanting more choice in the abstract, research indicates we pragmatically only prefer 3-7 or something along those lines. Many people only prefer 2 from my experience.


Why wouldn't It generate some equilibrium like the SAT/ACT? Neither of those are imposed choices from the Public, but have become established over time due to the demand for them.

So even in the unlikely scenario** there are initial 1 million offerings, the demand for a handful of options will pare those down to an actual handful.

** Unlikely because the 1 millionth publisher will notice that there are 999,999 competitors and choose to opt out. Same story to a lesser degree for the 999,990 competitors before him.

Blogger Spencer Dyal July 29, 2015 5:11 PM  

@90 BGS. No need to be barbaric. I'm in favor of just dumping them over the wall in Tijuana.

$5,000/head is just an expression. Although we could use it literally for those who attempt to come back into the country, and put them on pikes along the wall. If we're going to have a military, might as well make them useful, since our REAL biggest foreign policy foe isn't Iran or Russia, but Mexico.

Blogger haus frau July 29, 2015 5:43 PM  

KBT...you assume all these problems are bugs and not features. In oregon the per student expenditure is approaching $14k annually yet my local highschool regularly turns out functionally illiterate kids. The community college as a policy recommends remedial classes for students from my area just to bring them up to speed. So kids who desire to continue their education are being graduated without the basic skills needed to be successful in community college at the public expense of $14 per annum. At some point it must occur even to you that someone up the line making these decisions is getting exactly what they are paying for and it's certainly not the parents .

Anonymous A Visitor July 29, 2015 5:50 PM  

Donn,

I meant public school. You are probably right about the government finding a use for said tax dollars. A man can dream though.

Blogger Achillea July 29, 2015 5:52 PM  

@76
Pick, say, ten dojos, using any method your little heart desires. Closest to your house, starting with the same letter as your kid’s name, tossing a dart at the phone book, Ouija board, whatever.

Go to the first one. Scope it out. Is it clean and well-maintained? Is it secure? Observe a few classes. Is the instructor teaching the skills you want your kid to learn? Is he doing so in an effective manner? How are the kids in the class behaving? Do you want your child roughhousing with them? Watch the other parents. Sensible or psychos? Interview the instructor (if he can’t be bothered to talk to you, walk away). Do you agree with his philosophy? Is he insane or an asshole?

Repeat nine times.

Choose one you’re happy with. If you don’t like any of them, get out the darts, Ouija board, whatever, and pick another ten dojos to evaluate.

Anonymous Hildred Castaigne July 29, 2015 5:57 PM  

*shrugs* Well, that'll just mean that people who can't afford $20-25K at the private schools won't become executives at the Global/Fortune 500. No loss there.

(My employer's unwritten hiring rules:
* No HS diploma? No job.
* GED? No job.
* Worked manual labor? No job. Manual labor is for Manuel La Bor.
* No college degree? Janitorial only.
* Bag a lunch? You won't be staying long. You lower the tone.
* Also, have a decent looking car. No rat traps.
* Never worn a suit? Outta here.
* Want to be management? Don't get involved with skilled labor. Bosses boss. Employees work. Employees don't know what to do until the boss tells them.)

Blogger Eraser July 29, 2015 6:04 PM  

Any kind of private school has a major advantage over public schools: the private school can expel problem kids (disruptive, bullying, violent, drug using, etc.). That makes a difference, even before considering things like ideology and teaching quality. A few bad apples really spoil it for the rest.

Anonymous BoysMom July 29, 2015 6:05 PM  

@76 A million dojos within a mile of my house? I'd ask the neighbors when they went off the deep end: they should really diversify the businesses they rent to. (Within a mile there are six property owners, including us.)

I don't need to pick the perfect one out of a million options. I need to pick one that is good enough for me to be happy with the results. We do that all the time with music teachers. We do it with swim lessons. We do it with art classes. Summer camps. Why on earth would it any different with other educational programs?

You probably did that when you went to college and when you got your job or started your business. You didn't look at every possible option, you scanned until you found one that would meet your priorities at that time.

Anonymous Athor Pel July 29, 2015 6:11 PM  

"24. KBTJuly 29, 2015 3:02 PM
... Just because the current system is a vast clusterfuck also does not invalidate it.
"


The system is not broken. It is working as intended. It is producing incurious, unmotivated, habitually bored, consumerist drones. Just like it was designed to do.

Blogger Danby July 29, 2015 6:16 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Danby July 29, 2015 6:17 PM  

@Mister Irrational Prosper,
You're a pompous fool, a liar, full of unwarranted self-importance, posing before the mirror of the internet, exclaiming to the world how sexy you look.You have your head so far up your assets you think you're clever. you're not. You're a poser and an idiot. Verbiage does not compensate for intelligence, and "pragmatic" tough-guy talk does not compensate for your lack of sack.

Lose the duck face, stop lying to yourself, and think, for once in your life. It's painful at first, but eventually you'll come to treasure the experience.

Blogger haus frau July 29, 2015 6:19 PM  

@76 Question: how many of you would teach your children MMA?

Now pretend there's 1,000,000 MMA dojos within 1 mile of your house. How do you choose one?

And yet as homeschooling stands now people are already able to navigate the options and regularly churn out homeschooled students that put the public schools to shame. Your point is moot. People are already demonstrating their ability to do this. Just look at the statistics comparing homeschooled test scores to public school kids. Your complaint amounts to "other parents are less competent than I am so we need government to protect their kids from their incompetence." Such collectivist hand wringing.
As a mother of a 6 yr old whom I've homeschooled for the past year, about 1 and a half hours a days 4 days a week, it's not rocket science. He would be going into kindergarten this fall and already reads on a second grade level and does first grade math. Some programs are definitely better than others but elementary level academics are pretty hard to screw up on if you are making the effort and paying attention to how your kid responds.

Anonymous Hildred Castaigne July 29, 2015 6:20 PM  

@Tiny Tim: "If you can't teach your child better than Ms. Gomez or Mr. Robertson or whoever, than educate yourself so you can."

On your own time, of course. Not during your work hours. Also, it had better not lower your productivity and we're certainly not going to give you time off from work or reduce the mandatory overtime.

"the homeschool kid will take charge and get it done"

The only problem I have with that is with how it translates in a corporate environment. I need people who will do things the way I say, even if it seems to be counterintuitive. In my experience in F500 world, I've had homeschoolers who spark up with their "take-charge-do-it-better" routine and then fuck up data irretrievably because the client needed it this certain way even if it is inefficient or cause a client to drop the firm because their express wishes got ignored. And then the shit rebounds on me because I expected dumbass to do what he was told, not what he thought was better.

So, if you can get that homeschool kid to learn that when working for someone, it needs to be "OBEDIENCE, OBEDIENCE, OBEDIENCE, DO NOT INNOVATE I WILL INNOVATE FOR YOU.", then I can recommend that hiring pratices at my place get changed.

@Cail Corishev: "The neighborhood one-room schoolhouse could come back with a new look: a housewife teaches a dozen kids for a few hours a day in an extra room of the house, charges $1-2K for each one, and makes a very nice side income."

They won't be able to afford the certification, though, so it'd be no better than getting a high school degree from Pensacola Christian College. I dunno, maybe other homeschoolers might recognize it. But then, people like that aren't looking to join real business anyway; they're looking to run a garage or sell crafts out of their home or something.

"But in education, we somehow think that a government-run, one-size-fits-all, free-to-everyone system is going to generate scholars."

No, the purpose of education is to get a job. Period.
Anything else is namby-pamby liberalism.

@Rabbi B: " Are we going to teach them to rely on the so-called "experts" their entire lives, or are we going to teach them how to become the true experts themselves?"

Actually, I would teach mine to rely on experts. Representing yourself in court is idiocy. Trying to perform heart surgery on yourself is also idiocy. I tend to rely on experts for that sort of thing.

@Soga: "How do you learn different versions of science?"

Here's an example.

In public school, you learn that the craters on the moon were caused by meteorites crashing into it.

If you're using A Beka Books or going to a Southern Baptist religious school, you learn the water from Noah's global flood lay under the Earth's crust in accordance with hydroplate theory. During the flood, the crust dropped down and this forced all the water to shoot upwards at supersonic speeds to splatter the moon, thus causing craters. Droplets that didn't hit the moon became comets.

Depending on which version of Creationism you follow (or if you follow it) one of those is true science and the other is a lie.

Anonymous Donn #0114 July 29, 2015 6:22 PM  

Vox what are European views of home schoolers? Is it legal everywhere? I remember a German family that was harassed because of it. My niece and nephew wore the cutest uniforms when they went to school in Naples. It looked like something da Vinci designed.

Blogger Doom July 29, 2015 6:37 PM  

I think they still should have pushed. A firing, a change of this and that, and demands for a few items. Kick em' when they are down. Don't even give them a chance. These people, regardless of how nice they are when at the end of a lawsuit, are not your friends. Burn it down. Legally and politely, and always with a smile.

Anonymous KingProphetPriest July 29, 2015 6:57 PM  

I always like to drag out this article in discussions like these: http://reason.org/blog/show/tom-mcclintock-on-california-e

True, it's written by a politician, which is one strike against the guy, and it pre-supposes that public schools are the way to go, but it does give a good picture why the schools are in the holes they are in.

I have a friend who is a public school teacher and I just about sent her off the rails by referring her to this article.

My family? We've homeschooled since day one and have graduated two (both now entrepreneurs - so proud of those kids!). A few more to go and pleased with how they've turned out as well.

Would we do some things differently? Of course. Mainly limit access to media/electronics and introduce economics a bit earlier. And teach all of them programming.

I aim to spend the coming years helping families with younger children avoid the mistakes we've made.

Blogger dlw July 29, 2015 7:26 PM  

Nobody actually expects children to learn anything in public school. The highly-educated staff are basically presiding over a publicly-funded daycare system.

If the school system collapses, the breeders will still insist on some method of extracting money from other people to pay for their brood's daycare. Baud forfend one of them stay at home and watch over them personally...

Anonymous Whitey McWhite July 29, 2015 8:27 PM  

The haus frau will win and the nay-sayers will not.

You can say: I am the employer and what I want is: "OBEDIENCE, OBEDIENCE, OBEDIENCE, DO NOT INNOVATE I WILL INNOVATE FOR YOU.", but it's not in the interest of parents interested in multi-generational success to turn their genetically hopeful children into mental slaves for you.

Anonymous clk July 29, 2015 8:35 PM  

Certainly the solution is not everyone will home school ... maybe the ilk are smart enough to teach calc based physics, chemistry, molecular bio... etc but as a often stated rule of the VD..MPAI.. and thus not qualified to teach thier kids....

I for once would love an intelligent discussion of this subject. We know there are problems with ps ... but hs is not the answer for all so what is ? Sure the I internet can handle some of this material but theres more to this than that...

Anonymous Whitey McWhite July 29, 2015 8:46 PM  

clk: "MPAI.. and thus not qualified to teach thier kids...."

A wonder of genetics is that there is a better-than-random relationship between children who need a better grade of homeschooling and parents who can provide it.

clk: "... but hs is not the answer for all so what is ?"

There is no answer for all, but many would be suited to madrasas in their own Muslim countries.

Anonymous Tar Heel (VFM#0245) July 29, 2015 8:51 PM  

Freedom is scary to some. Freedom is not safe for anyone. And Hildred doesn't seem to think that a homeschooled child can open their own business once they're sufficiently grown.

Anonymous Siobhan July 29, 2015 8:55 PM  

In San Francisco, 30% of kids go to private schools. I guess it's lower elsewhere? There is a LOT of opting out of public school going on here.

Blogger Thucydides July 29, 2015 8:56 PM  

We see al to of what is being commented on in Ontario. A powerful teachers union with the government in their pocket, Progressives manipulating the curriculum to promote their ideologies (the new "gay friendly" sex ed program is particularly disgusting and blatant), which also eats a huge portion of the budget and seriously under performs in terms of outcomes (as a military instructor, I am appalled at the decline in the sculls of recruits over the last 10 years; basic literacy, numeracy and even social skills in dealing with others is at a very low level, but as a PC army we can't take the direct approach of the classic USMC and "tear a person down and build him up to be a soldier).

Of course there are some signs. The budget is the truly limiting factor (the Liberal government wanted to institute full day K and pre K programs to pay off their union allies and start indoctrination right away, but can to afford to do so) and are running into truly impressive levels of rejection of their program, especially in the immigrants they were also courting with the "freestuff" for votes. So the system may yet tear itself apart due to internal contradictions and stresses, but for those who can (like I did) get your children out of public school ASAP. If you are not able or inclined to home school, there are also numerous private school alternatives out there, like Montessori education, Waldorf schools, religious institutions and whatever else might appeal to your values and lifestyle.

Blogger haus frau July 29, 2015 9:14 PM  

@126
MPAI.. and thus not qualified to teach their kids....

the public school system actively selects for teachers that fit the MPIA bill.
Most people may be idiots by a lot of metrics but at least parents have an active moral and familial imperative to do the best by their children that they possibly can. Your average teacher chose their profession because it is one of the easiest 4 year degrees to attain for the economic return. Your kid is a statistic to them.

Blogger J Carlton July 29, 2015 9:26 PM  

The problem is that the public schools have NO moral focus or judgment.
http://dailycaller.com/2015/07/25/at-anti-bullying-conference-iowa-middle-schoolers-learn-about-lesbian-strap-on-anal-sex-fake-testicles/
Add to that the "all kids are winners" and "math is whatever the kid says it is" and there are real problems.

Blogger Cail Corishev July 29, 2015 9:27 PM  

MPAI.. and thus not qualified to teach thier kids....

Are you trying to provide a case in point?

The first mistake many people make is thinking too much about the teaching and not enough about the learning.

Blogger haus frau July 29, 2015 9:36 PM  

Another thing I learned about my local school system, the kindergarten kids learn colors shapes and how to count 1 to 30. Like I said, my 6 yr old would go into kindergarten this year and does 2nd grade reading and first grade math according to the guidelines listed by the oregon education department. It's not that he is super smart, it's that the schools are just that dumbed down. Most parents may be idiots but if theither teaching isnt limited by the low common denominator effect of a public school classroom they are bound to surpass their public school counter parts by momentum alone.

Blogger John Wright July 29, 2015 9:46 PM  

I have spent the last two weeks, on a daily basis, helping my teenaged daughter with her homework. She is routinely assigned fiction books to read that are uniformly leftwing in nature and nihilist in outlook, and merely disgusting and vile in content and imagery.

I think I would prefer the movie SAW and its sequels assigned her, rather than this rubbish.

Her only protection is that her grasp of English is poor, and she is easily bored, and so the anti-life, anti-reason, anti-Christian message is going over her head.

And the public school system where I live is one of the better ones!

Blogger J Carlton July 29, 2015 9:46 PM  

@120
Your office must be a hellacious place to work and I doubt that your company has much of a future. I've been watching a lot of people with your attitude and they are missing the point. First of all the F500 are all their own little Soviets, trapped in Pournelle's Iron Law. Those silly hiring practices and a bunch of other silly stuff I see are going to drive the real talent away and leave you with the butt kissing A students from the Ivy Covered Snob Factories. Which will not end well when things change and the messed up corrupt system the A students have created from what was the freest most creative and productive economy on the planet collapses in on itself. Which is going to happen, far sooner than any of us like.

Blogger J Melcher July 29, 2015 9:55 PM  

@87 Cail Corishev "The good thing about homeschooling materials is that most of what you need has been around for ages ... algebra will always be algebra."

The McGuffy Readers are still useful. Jerry Pournelle has several posts on the topic.

The schools do pursue the new but they tend, for various structural reasons, to reject techniques which are both new and EFFECTIVE. The concept of "direct instruction" -- using scripted materials to intentionallyget across one small new skill per lesson -- was proven effective in the 1960s and basically abandoned thereafter. The notion that, as in martial arts classes, the slightly advanced students can teach the beginning students, or that age is no qualifier nor barrier for advancement from grade to grade, "belt" to "belt" or McGuffey Text Number to Text Number -- rejected by the establishment. In a homeschool setting if one kid is successful in "book 3" (Saxon Math, say) he's also ready to teach a kid first opening "book 1"

Home schoolers also tend to benefit from their own naive (even "obsolete", according to the education experts) perceptions of how things work. A homeschooling instructor tacking a particular question opens the book, finds the index, table of contents, etc, and gets an answer to the question. Book goes back on the shelves. The same instructor tacking a subject as a discipline to be mastered opens the book to page one, begins lesson one, and proceeds to work with student through every exercise on every page until reaching the end of the book. Using books in this old-fashioned (old-school?) way, the students tend to learn how to learn relatively quickly. Odd, that.

Anonymous Azimus July 29, 2015 9:55 PM  

116. Anonymous Athor Pel July 29, 2015 6:11 PM
"24. KBTJuly 29, 2015 3:02 PM
... Just because the current system is a vast clusterfuck also does not invalidate it.
"


The system is not broken. It is working as intended. It is producing incurious, unmotivated, habitually bored, consumerist drones. Just like it was designed to do.


Do not ascribe to malice what can more easily be explained by incompetence...

Blogger J Carlton July 29, 2015 9:57 PM  

"So, if you can get that homeschool kid to learn that when working for someone, it needs to be "OBEDIENCE, OBEDIENCE, OBEDIENCE, DO NOT INNOVATE I WILL INNOVATE FOR YOU.", then I can recommend that hiring practices at my place get changed. "
The big problem is that A students can't innovate worth crap. They've spent all their lives kissing butt and doing what teacher wanted. Being perfectly organized and all that stuff the slow minded like. Innovation takes being able to see thing differently and put two and two together and come up six.

Anonymous BigGaySteve July 29, 2015 10:13 PM  

It should be pointed out that everyone using different curriculum to education their children is only going to accelerate the fragmentation of American society.

Yea because every kid in the nation learning how to suck cock in math class the same way is a good thing.
http://www.gaypatriot.net/2015/04/29/lesbian-teacher-uses-math-class-to-indoctrinate-pre-teens-in-gay-issues-and-social-justice/
http://www.gaypatriot.net/2015/07/26/lgbt-activists-seek-to-sexualize-children/

Blogger Ragin' Dave July 29, 2015 10:25 PM  

"No, the purpose of education is to get a job. Period."

Hogswallop. The purpose of an education is to provide for yourself. That might mean getting a job. That might mean starting a business and having people work for you. That might mean being self-employed and working on your own terms. That might mean being rejected at publishing companies around the world so you give them a huge middle finger and start one yourself.

A vast majority of my education won't help me "get a job". But it WILL help me provide for myself under any circumstances. Anyone who limits themselves to "education is to get a job!" is selling both themselves and the people their directing their advice towards very, very short.

Blogger J Carlton July 29, 2015 10:50 PM  

There was a time where education was the individuals responsibility.
https://theartsmechanical.wordpress.com/2015/07/19/diy-education-used-to-be-the-norm-in-the-19th-century/

Anonymous Satan's Hamster July 29, 2015 11:44 PM  

@141: "Anyone who limits themselves to "education is to get a job!" is selling both themselves and the people their directing their advice towards very, very short."

Particularly when 'jobs' probably won't exist by the time kids starting school today would graduate. Who'll want a job in a world of AIs, networks and 3D printers?

My parents were manual workers, but I was at least a year ahead of the other kids by the time I started school, and probably more than that. Why? They had a couple of shelves of books at home--fiction and non-fiction--and got me an adult library card as soon as I could read those books.

Most kids have to be taught not to be curious about the world around them, and public schools are extremely good at that. Without school, they don't need much teaching, just a lot of learning.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper July 29, 2015 11:54 PM  

I don't have kids but if/when I do, I won't let them near public schools for obvious reasons. Besides compared to the recent past, home-schooling is massively easier

Now the old "you can't know everything" saw is one anti-homeschool types like to use.

The best reply I think is "True but I know other homeschool people who know the stuff I don't." or when snark is called for "well the Internet probably does."

After all nothing stops homeschoolers from cooperating

Blogger John Wright July 30, 2015 1:28 AM  

"No, the purpose of education is to get a job. Period."

I have raised the shade of Aristotle by use of the dark and occultic arts I learned in ancient and peculiar Glubdubdrib, from the sorcerer kings who rule there, and have sent this spectre to haunt you and your tiny little materialistic heart until you recant.

The purpose of trade school is to learn a trade. The purpose of apprenticeship is to learn a trade. The purpose of education is to glorify all the intellectual beauties of creation, to bring light to the benighted, and turn human-shaped slave-animals into civilized men!

The purpose of state-run education is to extinguish this light, and to turn civilized men into human shaped slave-animals.

Education is the opposite of state-run education, and its most dire enemy.

Blogger buzzardist July 30, 2015 1:37 AM  

Public schools will collapse primarily for three reasons:

1) They've become liberal hell-holes where kids get suspended or expelled for imaginary guns and pretend rings of power, where thought-policing is rampant, and where the curriculum is a lot of left-wing propaganda. This factor is already pushing a lot of parents to remove their kids from public schools. As more do so, support for public spending on schools will decline.

2) They are investing more and more of their money in administrative bureaucracy rather than in actual education of students.

3) State money is going to be increasingly sucked up by entitlement requirements, namely Medicaid. Bursting Medicaid budgets have already forced states to trim spending across the board in other areas, including education. This trend will continue as long as health care costs continue to rise. And since Obamacare has done nothing to slow health care costs, nor is anything else likely to cut costs, we can assume that larger percentages of state budgets will need to go to Medicaid, which means less for education, which means more high-achieving parents moving their kids over to better-funded private schools.


Curiously, #2, while it's one of the factors that is killing public education, is also what is going to keep public education on life support for a long time. Most of the federal money for public education that's been made available in recent years has gone toward administrative purposes. Some of this is for new administrators at schools. A lot goes toward big corporate contracts with companies like ETS. It's a system of graft. Those for-profit educational research/consulting/testing corporations lobby heavily and put a lot of money into politics. Legislators pass regulations requiring use of those services. As long as there is room for this graft, the public education zombie will be kept alive.

Anonymous Homesteader July 30, 2015 2:12 AM  

My employer's unwritten hiring rules:
* No HS diploma? No job.
* GED? No job.
* Worked manual labor? No job. Manual labor is for Manuel La Bor.
* No college degree? Janitorial only.
* Bag a lunch? You won't be staying long. You lower the tone.
* Also, have a decent looking car. No rat traps.
* Never worn a suit? Outta here.
* Want to be management? Don't get involved with skilled labor. Bosses boss. Employees work. Employees don't know what to do until the boss tells them.)

Hildred:

I do want to bitch slap you for this.

Steve Jobs and Bill Gates didn't have college degrees.
Jeff Bezos worked manual labor.
Dave Ramsey drove rat trap cars.
"Bosses boss"- Nothing like talking without knowing.

Never wore a suit- you do realize "suits" is a universal term of disparagement for a reason, right?

God help us. Fools like this thinks they're wise.

Anonymous homesteader July 30, 2015 2:13 AM  

think

Blogger Thordaddy July 30, 2015 3:20 AM  

The next simplest step in this movement is to answer sternly to all who ask, "my children do not go to school." Even if they still do, this is a lie worth telling.

Blogger Thordaddy July 30, 2015 6:16 AM  

One of the first real indicators that "we" operate in a Profilng State (a hybrid of Nanny and Police State) was the UNIVERSAL DESIRE of the surrounding public TO ALWAYS KNOW and therefore ASK FIRST, "where do your kids go to school?" It was LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE PERSON. It still happens now, unanimously. It was really the first time I was forced to "see" a real mass of sheeple.

Blogger Banjo July 30, 2015 7:30 AM  

@Hildred, I want to smack the cheek opposite the one Homesteader left burning. You work at a place that refuses to hire someone who worked their way through college on the floor of a textile mill and drives a perfectly fine 15 year old car because there is no need to spend money needlessly?

Also, I hesitate taking up for PCC but when I lived down there, kids who came out of the lower schools and landed in public school tended to be at the top of the class and that is even when they moved up a grade. And the college grads I have interacted with, while not worldly (some would call that a feature) were certainly bright, well spoken, and curious about everything.

I'll investigate the Beka books charge myself as from what I recall they were fantastic little books when I was learning to read

Anonymous VFM 0264 July 30, 2015 10:39 AM  

"You can say: I am the employer and what I want is: "OBEDIENCE, OBEDIENCE, OBEDIENCE, DO NOT INNOVATE I WILL INNOVATE FOR YOU." "

Wow, what a terrible company that must be to work for. You must have a hell of a time hanging onto employees worth having. The rest of that rant - about how the smart and innovative worker changed specs that the customer couldn't allow to be changed - well, that's on you as the boss. If you didn't communicate the customer's acceptance conditions, that's not the worker's fault. I have never - not once - reprimanded someone for doing something in a way that was BETTER than I asked. What insanity! People are not software, nor are they machines, and I refuse to treat them as such.

I hope I have the good fortune of hiring some of the employees you fired for being too good at their jobs.

Anonymous Hildred Castaigne July 30, 2015 11:04 AM  

@Whitey McWhite: "You can say: I am the employer and what I want is: "OBEDIENCE, OBEDIENCE, OBEDIENCE, DO NOT INNOVATE I WILL INNOVATE FOR YOU.", but it's not in the interest of parents interested in multi-generational success to turn their genetically hopeful children into mental slaves for you."

If they're management, no.
If they're labor, well, that's their lot in life. God has a place for every man - and every man in their place.

===

@Tar Heel: "And Hildred doesn't seem to think that a homeschooled child can open their own business once they're sufficiently grown."

They're more than welcome to do so, so long as they don't try to compete with the real businesses. Please, make crafts, run stuff from your garage - but the moment you try to go national or multi-nat, prepare to be annihilated. And said small business happens to get mowed by an expansion of a real corporation...well, that's capitalism. It's dog-eat-dog, winner-take-all.

===

@J Carlton: "Your office must be a hellacious place to work and I doubt that your company has much of a future."

We have 57% of the market share of our product here in North America and anywhere from 40-80% in other continents. We've successfully bought out and integrated all of smaller competitors and are currently assimilating small businesses market-by-market. Our profits are up, I've gotten constantly increasing raises for the past 7 years, and our stock is doing well. I have no worries about my employer. They're not like Kodak was.

As for hellacious, not for me. I don't speak for other people.

"First of all the F500 are all their own little Soviets, trapped in Pournelle's Iron Law. Those silly hiring practices and a bunch of other silly stuff I see are going to drive the real talent away and leave you with the butt kissing A students from the Ivy Covered Snob Factories. Which will not end well when things change and the messed up corrupt system the A students have created from what was the freest most creative and productive economy on the planet collapses in on itself. Which is going to happen, far sooner than any of us like. "

Yeah, I get a lot of that doomsaying stuff from the small businesses we eat up on acquisition. My prediction: No collapse. The creation of the Incorporated States of America in the next 100 years. That I will retire in 40 years with my 401K and pension (yes, a pension provided by a private corp!) fully vested and intact.

We'll see who wins on that one.

"The big problem is that A students can't innovate worth crap."

Sure thing. Keep thinking that. Helps me immensely.

===

@Ragin' Dave: " Anyone who limits themselves to "education is to get a job!" is selling both themselves and the people their directing their advice towards very, very short."

Strange, then, how it's worked for me. I guess I must be the anomaly.

===

@John Wright: "I have raised the shade of Aristotle by use of the dark and occultic arts I learned in ancient and peculiar Glubdubdrib, from the sorcerer kings who rule there, and have sent this spectre to haunt you and your tiny little materialistic heart until you recant."

Don't believe in ghosts, sorry.

"The purpose of education is to glorify all the intellectual beauties of creation, to bring light to the benighted, and turn human-shaped slave-animals into civilized men!"

Being florid doesn't impress me. Just an FYI.
I am sure that the monasteries of old agreed with your viewpoint, but we live in a modern, technological, and industrialized civilization now. The light I provide is a nice fluorescent one.

Anonymous Hildred Castaigne July 30, 2015 11:05 AM  

===

@Homesteader: "Steve Jobs and Bill Gates didn't have college degrees. Jeff Bezos worked manual labor. Dave Ramsey drove rat trap cars."

In every population, there will be anomalies and outliers. They are assimilated into the appropriate class and generally serve to refresh the pool. Nouveau riche they may be, but the ones who survive learn quickly enough.

"Never wore a suit- you do realize "suits" is a universal term of disparagement for a reason, right?"

Yes. It's used as a term of disparagement by those who are envious of the wealth they will never have.

===

@Banjo: "You work at a place that refuses to hire someone who worked their way through college on the floor of a textile mill and drives a perfectly fine 15 year old car because there is no need to spend money needlessly?"

We'll hire them for manual labor.
But a guy like that, no, they're not office material.

"Also, I hesitate taking up for PCC but when I lived down there, kids who came out of the lower schools and landed in public school tended to be at the top of the class and that is even when they moved up a grade. And the college grads I have interacted with, while not worldly (some would call that a feature) were certainly bright, well spoken, and curious about everything."

I don't doubt it. The problem with PCC is that they're unaccredited, making their degrees worth spit to any secular corporation. While I don't endorse Cracked, they did have this article: (http://www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-1688-5-awful-realities-fundamentalist-christian-college.html) The bit under #1, "They Only Prepare You For Life Inside The Christian Bubble", illustrates the problem with their degrees. If you go to PCC, I recommend only applying to ministries.

Blogger Brad Andrews July 30, 2015 11:20 AM  

@113 Not sure your point. You are wrong that working in a labor job will keep you from higher level positions. You must never have worked in tech.

I have not worked much in manual labor, but I work with many who have. Tech cares what you do today and did in the last few years, not how you started.

The degree is a necessity, but it can be from almost anywhere.

@36 You are full of it NorthernHamlet. You assume that the government schools have quality. 1 million Dojos in a 1 mile radius is not a realistic thing to even consider, but I would still take that over the one staffed with perps that is chosen by the government.

My children may not have turned out well in many senses, but they overcame a significant part of their heritage (birth family - they were adopted) and they avoided the crud from the local government schools.

Note they are government schools as well, not public ones. Note that many things are mislabeled to appeal more.

Blogger Brad Andrews July 30, 2015 11:41 AM  

@120 Do you really understand education much Hildred Castaigne? Worst case is that students need to pass the GED test to get high school credit and go to college. High school is irrelevant once you get a college degree. I think I have been asked to enter my high school on job apps, but I do not do so and haven't missed any opportunities.

my experience in F500 world, I've had homeschoolers who spark up with their "take-charge-do-it-better" routine and then fuck up data irretrievably because the client needed it this certain way even if it is inefficient or cause a client to drop the firm because their express wishes got ignored. And then the shit rebounds on me because I expected dumbass to do what he was told, not what he thought was better.

And you think those from the government schools will follow directions better? I teach college and get many of those (older, non-traditional learners typically). Many cannot follow instructions in a simple assignment. They will not do so in the elaborate case you note.

Why do you hate those who were homeschooled?

So, if you can get that homeschool kid to learn that when working for someone, it needs to be "OBEDIENCE, OBEDIENCE, OBEDIENCE, DO NOT INNOVATE I WILL INNOVATE FOR YOU.", then I can recommend that hiring pratices at my place get changed.

I am glad I do not work for you. That is a horrid attitude in business and you will rapidly lose marketshare if you face any competition.

Read some business books. The idea is to enable those who work for you in a framework, not just have them be unthinking robots. Just make a robot if that is all you want!

@153 If they're labor, well, that's their lot in life. God has a place for every man - and every man in their place.

You are an idiot there too. Those people on the floor will have some of the best ideas to improve processing there. You may not make them in charge of the full process, but you want them thinking, not just following instructions.

Are you really this ignorant or are you just a sock puppet?

Anonymous KBT July 30, 2015 12:00 PM  

"The system is not broken. It is working as intended. It is producing incurious, unmotivated, habitually bored, consumerist drones. Just like it was designed to do."

And I agree. But, again, that does not invalidate the basic concept of public eduction, hence the leading baby/bathwater comment. I called the current system a clusterfuck- you're preaching to the choir there.

"Yes. It's used as a term of disparagement by those who are envious of the wealth they will never have."

Are suits really expensive where you live or something? I can afford many suits, but I hate them.

Sociopath politicians wear suits. Sleazy salesmen wear suits. The leaders of various rotten countries wear suits to try and look Western and respectable. People in the yellow media wear suits.

The age of "man in suit = a success to be reckoned with is long gone, and probably never was anything but smoke and mirrors. I see a guy in a suit and wonder what he's hiding. The suit is just a mindless cultural aphorism at this point. People wear them because our dippy culture dictates it in certain situations.

Blogger borderwalker July 30, 2015 12:08 PM  

@24: "Every parent is equipped to teach history, science, math, programming, etc?"

I'll answer your question with a question: How many science teachers have a science degree? How many math teachers have a math degree? How many history teachers have a history degree?

They don't. They have education degrees. Why is that?

The only specialized skills required for teaching in schools are how to control an entire class full of other people's children, how to deal with kids that have real mental/physical deficits, and how to deal with all the disruptive nonsense brought to school by the parents of the poorly- (or un-) parented.)

Any person of reasonable intelligence should be able to teach their own children anything.

If the parent knows the topic, great. If not, all that's required is that the parent get a good text/lesson plan, and stay one lesson ahead of the child.

Think about all the time you spent in public school waiting, standing in line, filling out useless paperwork, taking useless standardized tests, sitting through meaningless, scripted sports and "social" events, idling while the teacher dealt with disciplinary problems, etc., etc.

I was in public school between 7 and 8 hours a day (not counting sports practice, and "homework"). When we homeschooled, we put our kids through a pretty tough high-school cirriculum and managed to do it in about 4 hours a day - including exercises and tests.

Results? Our school district required homeschool kids to take the same standardized tests as the system students, and our kids both took the state GED exam. The lowest score any of them made was 85th percentile (in math). All other scores were in the high 90's.

"Just because the current system is a vast clusterfuck also does not invalidate it."

Actually, "it didn't work because the right people weren't running it" or "because we didn't spend enough money" is usually a defense offered by communists about why that system didn't work. Are you really suggesting that the reason the late 20th century public school model didn't work is because we didn't do it hard enough?

But, don't believe me. Believe New York State "Teacher of the Year", three-time New York City "Teacher of the Year" and author of multiple books on this subject:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Taylor_Gatto

"What does the school do to children? Gatto asserts the following in "Dumbing Us Down":

It confuses the students. It presents an incoherent ensemble of information that the child needs to memorize to stay in school. Apart from the tests and trials that programming is similar to the television, it fills almost all the "free" time of children. One sees and hears something, only to forget it again.

It teaches them to accept their class affiliation.

It makes them indifferent.

It makes them emotionally dependent.

It makes them intellectually dependent.

It teaches them a kind of self-confidence that requires constant confirmation by experts (provisional self-esteem).

It makes it clear to them that they cannot hide, because they are always supervised.

Blogger borderwalker July 30, 2015 12:10 PM  

@24: "Every parent is equipped to teach history, science, math, programming, etc?"

I'll answer your question with a question: How many science teachers have a science degree? How many math teachers have a math degree? How many history teachers have a history degree?

They don't. They have education degrees. Why is that?

The only specialized skills required for teaching in schools are how to control an entire class full of other people's children, how to deal with kids that have real mental/physical deficits, and how to deal with all the disruptive nonsense brought to school by the parents of the poorly- (or un-) parented.)

Any person of reasonable intelligence should be able to teach their own children anything.

If the parent knows the topic, great. If not, all that's required is that the parent get a good text/lesson plan, and stay one lesson ahead of the child.

Think about all the time you spent in public school waiting, standing in line, filling out useless paperwork, taking useless standardized tests, sitting through meaningless, scripted sports and "social" events, idling while the teacher dealt with disciplinary problems, etc., etc.

I was in public school between 7 and 8 hours a day (not counting sports practice, and "homework"). When we homeschooled, we put our kids through a pretty tough high-school cirriculum and managed to do it in about 4 hours a day - including exercises and tests.

Results? Our school district required homeschool kids to take the same standardized tests as the system students, and our kids both took the state GED exam. The lowest score any of them made was 85th percentile (in math). All other scores were in the high 90's.

"Just because the current system is a vast clusterfuck also does not invalidate it."

Actually, "it didn't work because the right people weren't running it" or "because we didn't spend enough money" is usually a defense offered by communists about why that system didn't work. Are you really suggesting that the reason the late 20th century public school model didn't work is because we didn't do it hard enough?

But, don't believe me. Believe New York State "Teacher of the Year", three-time New York City "Teacher of the Year" and author of multiple books on this subject:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Taylor_Gatto

"What does the school do to children? Gatto asserts the following in "Dumbing Us Down":

It confuses the students. It presents an incoherent ensemble of information that the child needs to memorize to stay in school. Apart from the tests and trials that programming is similar to the television, it fills almost all the "free" time of children. One sees and hears something, only to forget it again.

It teaches them to accept their class affiliation.

It makes them indifferent.

It makes them emotionally dependent.

It makes them intellectually dependent.

It teaches them a kind of self-confidence that requires constant confirmation by experts (provisional self-esteem).

It makes it clear to them that they cannot hide, because they are always supervised.

Blogger J Carlton July 30, 2015 12:24 PM  

@153
"We have 57% of the market share of our product here in North America and anywhere from 40-80% in other continents. We've successfully bought out and integrated all of smaller competitors and are currently assimilating small businesses market-by-market. Our profits are up, I've gotten constantly increasing raises for the past 7 years, and our stock is doing well. I have no worries about my employer. They're not like Kodak was."

I've been reading balance sheets since I was about six. Why don't you tell us who your company is so that we can judge for ourselves. I will add that if you don't think you are Kodak, you probably ARE Kodak and just don't know it yet. The problem with growth by acquisition is that each purchase carries a hidden overhead of at least 150% not counting loss of human capital, which tends to be significant. Your attitude about the people in your company tells me you have human capital issues, big time. I hope that your Noncompete agreements are solid or that's going to come back and bite you.
https://theartsmechanical.wordpress.com/2015/02/16/ouch/
Anyway growth by acquisitions tells me that your company has stopped innovating internally. While the low interest rates make that feasible now, the interest rates aren't going to stay that way forever and all that money is going to have to be paid for with overfinanced revenues from the acquisitions that you've been bleeding of human capital. I've seen it both from the inside and the outside and it doesn't tend to end well. I'm going to leave this with this guy, Larry the liquidator.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOcz-H5u3Rk
Because I think that you're whistling in the wind.

Blogger J Carlton July 30, 2015 1:05 PM  

A gentle reminder that even Kodak was not "Kodak"
https://theartsmechanical.wordpress.com/2015/05/26/the-birth-of-the-digital-camera/

Anonymous Donn #0114 July 30, 2015 1:22 PM  

So, if you can get that homeschool kid to learn that when working for someone, it needs to be "OBEDIENCE, OBEDIENCE, OBEDIENCE, DO NOT INNOVATE I WILL INNOVATE FOR YOU.", then I can recommend that hiring pratices at my place get changed.

Did anyone else have an image of her in an SS uniform slapping her jackboot with a riding crop each time she shouted, 'OBEDIENCE'?

Blogger Cail Corishev July 30, 2015 1:35 PM  

It appears that the demonic spirit patron of slave labor which once possessed our good friend Tiny Tim now inhabits the corporeal form of Hildred.

Anonymous Hildred Castaigne July 30, 2015 1:45 PM  

@Brad Andrews: "You are wrong that working in a labor job will keep you from higher level positions. You must never have worked in tech."

I do work in tech. We keep the techs in tech positions. We keep the engineers in engineering positions. And we have management to tell both what to do and how to do it.

"Tech cares what you do today and did in the last few years, not how you started."

And that's why we don't put them in management.

" I think I have been asked to enter my high school on job apps, but I do not do so and haven't missed any opportunities."

That's interesting to know. So, what's your executive title?

"And you think those from the government schools will follow directions better?"

In my experience? Yes, they are more obedient.

"I teach college"

Why do I have an ivory-tower academic lecturing to me, who works in the land of private capitalism. Ah, that's right - this is the internet.

"Why do you hate those who were homeschooled?"

I don't hate them. They're just...not important.

"That is a horrid attitude in business and you will rapidly lose marketshare if you face any competition."

Sure. Keep thinking that. It helps me a lot.

"Just make a robot if that is all you want!"

That's why we automate our factories. And why we're advocating for the software to replace engineers and secretaries.

An ideal business would have a CEO, the executives, a sales guy, maybe a tech to keep the software and hardware running, and a couple of janitors. That would be the ultimate efficiency.

"Those people on the floor will have some of the best ideas to improve processing there."

Question I always ask when this gets proposed to me: If this is the case, why don't they have my job and why am I not on the floor taking orders? My father had a great saying, which I'm sure came from somewhere else: "When I want your opinion, I will give it to you."

"You may not make them in charge of the full process, but you want them thinking, not just following instructions."

No, I do just want them to follow instructions. I'll do the thinking for them, thank you. It's what I'm paid for.

"Are you really this ignorant or are you just a sock puppet?"

To your unasked question, I am quite serious.

===

@KBT: "Are suits really expensive where you live or something?"

I can get a low-grade one for about $1000. I prefer bespoke myself. I understand most...non-management have issues with clothes of that price. We're talking about real suits here, not whatever they sell at Wal-Mart.

"I see a guy in a suit and wonder what he's hiding."

I'm just looking to see if he's wearing Savile Row myself.

Anonymous Hildred Castaigne July 30, 2015 1:46 PM  

@J Carlton: "Why don't you tell us who your company is so that we can judge for ourselves."

In this age of doxxing? You must be mad.

"The problem with growth by acquisition is that each purchase carries a hidden overhead of at least 150% not counting loss of human capital, which tends to be significant."

We tend to replace the human capital with machine capital. It's a better investment in the long run. Most of our losses from acquisitions involve letting go redundant accounting, secretarial, and IT entities, since everything gets assimilated.

"Your attitude about the people in your company tells me you have human capital issues, big time."

No, we remain stable, thank you. The average tenure of an employee with my firm is between 20-25 years, even today. I am lucky to have signed on over a decade ago.

"Anyway growth by acquisitions tells me that your company has stopped innovating internally."

Also incorrect. Aside from our traditional hardware manufacturing base (which is global), we've been pressing forward with increasing software options to complement to create a total solution.

"Because I think that you're whistling in the wind."

The keiretsu disagrees with you. If you don't mind, I think I'll trust them.

Anonymous Hildred Castaigne July 30, 2015 1:54 PM  

@Donn: "Did anyone else have an image of her in an SS uniform slapping her jackboot with a riding crop each time she shouted, 'OBEDIENCE'?"

Actually, I think of God.
The Employee is obedient to the Boss just as the Child is obedient to the Father, the Worshipper is obedient to the Pastor, and Man is obedient to God.

Obey without question! Obey without hesitation! Obey and you will receive salvation!

You know, that's rather catchy.

Anonymous BGS July 30, 2015 1:59 PM  

Hildebeast And said small business happens to get mowed by an expansion of a real corporation...well, that's rent seekers paying bribes to get monopolistic favors.

In San Francisco, 30% of kids go to private schools. I guess it's lower elsewhere? There is a LOT of opting out of public school going on here.
Given that Blacks make up 8% of SF public schools but 71% of the arrests from public schools can you blame them?

that when working for someone, it needs to be "OBEDIENCE, OBEDIENCE, OBEDIENCE, DO NOT INNOVATE I WILL INNOVATE FOR YOU.",

Things like this make me glad I have reported fraud multiple times. Non Asian minorities affected worse.

Blogger J Carlton July 30, 2015 2:19 PM  

@165
If you won't even tell us about your company, how do we know that you're not full of crap? As for doxxing, are you really that scared of somebody finding out who you are? If you are, you really should stop trolling here. And that you are rank coward who hides behind anonymity to troll others. In any case you scare the hell out of me. Not because I think that you are trolling, but because I'm concerned that your attitudes are real and prevalent in the f500. The strange thing is that I don't think you even understand how vulnerable your company is. Right now almost all manufacturing is global. As are markets. There's a good chance that "traditional manufacturing" won't even exist in ten years. And buzzword don't represent innovation. when I see something like this;" Aside from our traditional hardware manufacturing base (which is global), we've been pressing forward with increasing software options to complement to create a total solution." I see a company bound up in sclerosis and saying what they think will go good at the presentation to institutional investors but doesn't work in the real world. And as a manager you must be real good at retention, not. I've worked for people that were literally crazy, but your attitude takes the cake.

Anonymous Hildred Castaigne July 30, 2015 2:53 PM  

@J Carlton: "If you won't even tell us about your company, how do we know that you're not full of crap?"

You are absolutely free to think I'm full of crap. I won't try to dissuade you.

"As for doxxing, are you really that scared of somebody finding out who you are?"

See what happened to Pax Dickinson? Or Justine Sacco? Say anything that might be remotely unpopular and the firm will have to shell you. It's nothing personal, it's about optics. It's not being scared; it's just good common sense.

"And that you are rank coward who hides behind anonymity to troll others."

Where does all this troll stuff come from? I'm just a guy, commenting. That's it, no more, no less, no agenda. I comment occasionally here, as the whim takes me.

"Right now almost all manufacturing is global. As are markets. There's a good chance that "traditional manufacturing" won't even exist in ten years."

Yes, yes, and yes. Quite aware of it.

"I see a company bound up in sclerosis and saying what they think will go good at the presentation to institutional investors but doesn't work in the real world."

If I come out with actual software and project names, that's an identification marker. I'm just not that dumb, sorry. My industry is transitioning from a physical manufactured presence to a mostly digital presence; it's a transition, but a fascinating one, and I'm happy to be in the wave of carrying it forward. I'm sorry I'm not going to give you more detail, but hey, them's the breaks in this world of viral media.

"I've worked for people that were literally crazy, but your attitude takes the cake."

Well, if it will make you feel better, think of me as being like this and laugh a bit. Or like this. Either will do.

Anonymous Donn #0114 July 30, 2015 3:18 PM  

Hildy, yes you are full of crap as well as having a delusional view of what and why people educate their children. Hint, none of them have or will do so to increase your company's bottom line. The government has done a good job of abusing children until they are nice little drones for you. I can see where you wouldn't want to have to abuse and program children yourself cut into that bottom line.

Blogger Cail Corishev July 30, 2015 3:19 PM  

@24: Every parent is equipped to teach history, science, math, programming, etc?

That's the wrong question. The right question is: Is your child equipped to learn history, science, math, etc.?

See, if your kid is equipped to learn it and hasn't been taught to hate learning, then your "teaching" will consist mostly of providing the necessary materials and getting out of his way. If you happen to know the subject well, you can help by answering questions; but if you don't, you can hook him up with sources that do. Your main job is to encourage his intellectual curiosity in general, and the first step in that is to treat him like drugs -- never take him within 500 yards of a school.

If your kid isn't equipped to learn a subject, then any "teaching" ability you have is even more irrelevant. Teaching isn't like shoving oranges into a sock; you can't just keep pushing until you get another one in there. It's more like leading a horse, and you know what they say about when it's not thirsty. You can do what the schools do: teach for the test, make the kid memorize enough to pass even though he never grasps the subject. Or you can let him do something else that he can handle and try the hard subject again after his brain develops some more.

I do some tutoring. There are occasions when a kid is struggling with a concept and I present it in a new way or with a different example, and I see the light go on in his eyes. That's pretty awesome. But it doesn't happen every day; most days they get it (or don't) at whatever pace they can, and I'm mostly babysitting and keeping them on task. And I have to admit that in many of those cases when I helped them get it, they probably would have gotten it themselves with some more struggle anyway.

Of all the nonsense the educrats have come up with, one term that actually made sense was "learning facilitator." It's pompous and was invented for the same bad reasons as terms like "sanitation engineer," but it's actually more descriptive than "teacher," which implies a much more active role than is possible. If the kid can learn it, you can help. That's about it.

Blogger Cail Corishev July 30, 2015 3:30 PM  

Did anyone else have an image of her in an SS uniform slapping her jackboot with a riding crop each time she shouted, 'OBEDIENCE'?

Well, I do now. Thanks for that.

Blogger Brad Andrews July 30, 2015 5:26 PM  

@164 You remain an idiot. I am not and have no desire to be an executive. I would rather be someone who helps keep executives out of orange juice please suits by keeping their security straight.

Nor am I an ivory tower academic. My teaching is a second job. Fun at times, but following directions is not always top of student skills. The government schools don't produce that, contrary to your claim.

Your company will be out competed unless you have government connections that allow you to avoid competition. Though that assumes everyone in management as your views. Enjoy your data breaches too!

Blogger J Carlton July 30, 2015 5:31 PM  

Watching what Hildred posts, everything is about status and place. Don't get your hands dirty, wear the right clothes, don't brown bag, lease a car you can't really afford every three years, buy the expensive suits, send your kids to the "right" school. Nothing he's posted has been about actually doing any actual work. Which is typical of institutions bound up in the iron law. Like Liz Ryan once posted "business is theatre." the problem is that business isn't theatre and if you make the people who actually accomplish the work too unhappy, they won't stay and you company ends up in the toilet.

Anonymous Hildred Castaigne July 30, 2015 6:05 PM  

@Brad Andrews: "You remain an idiot. I am not and have no desire to be an executive."

More power to you, working man. Know your place and you know where you stand.

"Your company will be out competed unless you have government connections that allow you to avoid competition."

Or unless we're superior to the competition. There's always A winner. The end goal of capitalism is to have one man left standing.

===

"Watching what Hildred posts, everything is about status and place."

Status and place are very important in knowing the capabilities of a person. I'm not one of these "egalitarian" types who thinks everyone is equal.

"Nothing he's posted has been about actually doing any actual work."

You have the brains and the hands. Brains are management. Hands are the labor, be it skilled, office, or manual. Hands, in the human body, do not tell the brain what to do.

Take the example of the manager and the engineer under him. Without the manager telling the engineer what he should be engineering, the engineer has no purposes. Nothing to engineer. Or worse, he's engineering randomly, because he's not being properly directed. I like to imagine an engineer walking around like wind-up toy, bumping into walls, and shouting "Error! Error! I do not know what to engineer!"

The purpose of management is to lead, to tell people what to do, to adjudicate, to decide. That's the work being done. BRAIN work.

Anonymous Tar Heel (VFM#0245) July 30, 2015 6:17 PM  

Hildred's crony capitalist musings are not on-topic, folks. I'm somewhat guilty, myself, but the matter is the collapse of public school and the problems and benefits of home schooling. Let him cite some vague "God" and count his silver all he wants.

Blogger J Carlton July 30, 2015 6:59 PM  

I think that Hildy is afraid of dangerous children. Kids that can think and act for themselves without management.
https://alfin2101.wordpress.com/
I think he should be. His elitist status chasing universe is running out of steam and the end isn't going to be pretty.

Blogger J Carlton July 30, 2015 7:02 PM  

Take the example of the manager and the engineer under him. Without the manager telling the engineer what he should be engineering, the engineer has no purposes. Nothing to engineer. Or worse, he's engineering randomly, because he's not being properly directed. I like to imagine an engineer walking around like wind-up toy, bumping into walls, and shouting "Error! Error! I do not know what to engineer!"
This is about the most clueless thing I have seen from 30 years or so in the engineering profession. Generally the product development people have to come up with stuff and tell the dimwits like Hildy what they need because management is generally totally clueless. And people are not robots.

Blogger Brad Andrews July 30, 2015 8:34 PM  

@175 The purpose of management is to lead, to tell people what to do, to adjudicate, to decide. That's the work being done. BRAIN work.

Keep telling yourself and maybe it will be true in your own mind at some point. Not in reality, as despotism of any kind is bad, but you can have the fantasy of your own elitsm for as long as you want.

I am surprised you can mix with the hoi polloi here if you believe all you write.

@178 He is probably more like the pointed haired boss in Dilbert or the even more clueless people above him.

Blogger haus frau July 30, 2015 9:04 PM  

Jokes on Hildy, the type of parents that produce "executive" potential offspring are the very parents that are pulling their children out of the public schools and it really doesn't matter in the least what he thinks about it.

Blogger Groot July 30, 2015 11:51 PM  

@168. J Carlton:
"how do we know that you're not full of crap?"

Hildred is telling you himself that he is full of crap. This is actually some pretty good trolling.

Wikipedia: "'The Repairer of Reputations' is a short story published by Robert W. Chambers in the collection The King in Yellow in 1895. It is told from the view of Hildred Castaigne, a young man whose personality changes drastically following a head injury sustained by falling from his horse. He is subsequently committed to an asylum for treatment of insanity by Dr. Archer. Due to his accident, Hildred is a prime example of an unreliable narrator."

Anonymous Whitey McWhite July 31, 2015 12:25 AM  

Thanks, Groot.

Anonymous Statists are so dull July 31, 2015 3:20 AM  

Parents need to get over silly notion that they are not qualified to teach their children

Agreed. Most so called "teacher training" is learning how to bully kids onto compliance. What well-adjusted adult would want to do that?

And what other profession has so few hours and such long holidays? They are well rewarded for breaking the following generations for the state. They are the true "crackers" on the plantation.

Anonymous map July 31, 2015 3:36 PM  

There may be a point to what Hildred Castaigne says. Consider Apple and Steve Jobs. Jobs was not an engineer. When he told the engineers to build a phone, what designs did they introduce to him? Did they come up with the first iPhone all by themselves?

Blogger Good Will July 31, 2015 3:37 PM  

65. Clark: "Children of parents that cannot successfully home school will not learn anything in public school anyway because they are too stupid or too dysfunctional."

Bam! True dat!

Blogger Good Will July 31, 2015 3:59 PM  

65. Clark: "Children of parents that cannot successfully home school will not learn anything in public school anyway because they are too stupid or too dysfunctional."

Bam! True dat!

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