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Wednesday, July 29, 2015

The end of snark

I have always been a hard core fan of La Paglia Divina. And I never, ever, liked David Letterman:
I despise snark.  Snark is a disease that started with David Letterman and jumped to Jon Stewart and has proliferated since. I think it’s horrible for young people!   And this kind of snark atheism–let’s just invent that term right now–is stupid, and people who act like that are stupid. Christopher Hitchens’ book “God is Not Great” was a travesty. He sold that book on the basis of the brilliant chapter titles. If he had actually done the research and the work, where each chapter had the substance of those wonderful chapter titles, then that would have been a permanent book. Instead, he sold the book and then didn’t write one–he talked it. It was an appalling performance, demonstrating that that man was an absolute fraud to be talking about religion.  He appears to have done very little scholarly study.  Hitchens didn’t even know Judeo-Christianity well, much less the other world religions.  He had that glib Oxbridge debater style in person, but you’re remembered by your written work, and Hitchens’ written work was weak and won’t last.

Dawkins also seems to be an obsessive on some sort of personal vendetta, and again, he’s someone who has never taken the time to do the necessary research into religion. Now my entire career has been based on the pre-Christian religions.  My first book, “Sexual Personae,” was about the pagan cults that still influence us, and it began with the earliest religious artifacts, like the Venus of Willendorf in 35,000 B.C. In the last few years, I’ve been studying Native American culture, in particular the Paleo-Indian period at the close of the Ice Age.  In the early 1990s, when I first arrived on the scene, I got several letters from Native Americans saying my view of religion, women, and sexuality resembled the traditional Native American view. I’m not surprised, because my orientation is so fixed in the pre-Christian era.

You mentioned Jon Stewart, who leaves the “Daily Show” in two weeks. There’s handwringing from folks who think that he elevated or even transcended snark, that he utilized irony very effectively during the Bush years. And that he did the work of critiquing and fact-checking Fox and others on the right who helped create this debased media culture? What’s your sense of his influence?

I think Stewart’s show demonstrated the decline and vacuity of contemporary comedy. I cannot stand that smug, snarky, superior tone. I hated the fact that young people were getting their news through that filter of sophomoric snark.

Labels:

108 Comments:

Blogger rcocean July 29, 2015 4:04 PM  

Snark sells. It beats thinking.

Anonymous Lulabelle (68) July 29, 2015 4:06 PM  

And not just young people "getting their news" that way..........I know 40+ year old adults who watched it and quoted it. Of course, that was a convenient way for me to mentally mark them as imbeciles.

Anonymous CCing July 29, 2015 4:20 PM  

Once Lady Paglia grasps the simple concept of using snark as jist one tool in the service of Satire she will only begin to stop sounding like a bafoon.

Anonymous Krul July 29, 2015 4:25 PM  

I like snark as applied by, e.g., TheLutheranSatire. He's snarky without being mean spirited, if that makes sense.

Blogger Daniel July 29, 2015 4:28 PM  

Letterman really only became snarky after he shot his wad over Carson, and was left bereft. Before that he was a Midwest goofball who had a lot of fun at the expense of New York elites. I remember velcro Dave and watermelon Dave and grocery bagger Dave. By no means the funniest, but he was funny enough that his collapse into bitter snark was a decades long descent into sore loser t.v. He really lost it.

Stewart? Snark is what he does. Kevin Nealon was a much more genuinely funnier "news" anchor.

Blogger Tommy Hass July 29, 2015 4:28 PM  

Bill Maher's existence justifies antisemitism tbh.

OpenID obsoleteman July 29, 2015 4:32 PM  

"I was a Democrat who had just voted for Jesse Jackson in the 1988 primary"
And after eviscerating Clinton in 2008, said she would still vote for Hillary, if she won the nomination. Her emotion rules her thought, or so it seems to me.
Most of the interview/article is devoted to her observations about the wetness of water (progressives).
Nothing all that revealing...

Anonymous patrick kelly July 29, 2015 4:32 PM  

Yikes, read the comments for any Paglia piece in Salon.....the claws come out, she really hits those nerves and gets those knees jerkin'........whatever kind of liberals hang out there, they sure lack any sense of self examination...at all....really...it's sad and pathetic......

Anonymous Difster VFM #109 July 29, 2015 4:40 PM  

I never found Letterman even mildly funny. I did sometimes like Stewart, but only in small doses. Sometimes snark is funny.

Blogger bob k. mando July 29, 2015 4:41 PM  

perhaps i'm a bit slow today.

could you explain the difference between "snark" and "cruel artistry"?

Blogger luagha July 29, 2015 4:46 PM  

For one, cruel artistry has depth. The more you think about it the more cruelty is revealed. Snark is shallow; only one layer, a mockery in tone.

Blogger Cail Corishev July 29, 2015 4:47 PM  

I've always been fairly sarcastic, and at times maybe even a bit of a smart-ass, so I worry about crossing over into snark. (I can't imagine many fates worse than having people say I remind them of Jon Stewart.) But I don't always find it easy to tell the difference between the two, so like Bob, I'd enjoy hearing opinions on what makes snark different.

Anonymous grey enlightenment July 29, 2015 4:51 PM  

she's kinda liberal..kinda not, hard to define

In the 2004 U.S. presidential election, Paglia supported John Kerry; and in 2008, she supported Barack Obama.[66] In 2012, she supported Green Party candidate Jill Stein.[67] Some of her views have been characterized as conservative.[6] She is highly critical of 2016 presidential candidate Hillary Clinton, calling her a "fraud" and a "liar".[68]

definitely liberal judging by her voting habits, according to Wikipedia


For their flaws, the neo atheist movement has done a lot of good in raising awareness about the Islamic threat not only to women, but free speech and Western Civilization. If feminists really cared about women's rights and freedom of expression, they would set their targets on the global malignancy that is Islam, not male gamers and other benign targets.

Anonymous kfg July 29, 2015 4:56 PM  

"Snark" is being stuck with a pin, and you yell, "Ow! Quit it."

"Cruel artistry" is being given a pat on the back, and three days later you start bleeding internally and doctors can't figure out how to stop it.

Blogger Elocutioner #0226 July 29, 2015 4:59 PM  

I love snark. I can't get enough of it. But Stewart is a political hack first and foremost, comedian distant second. For snark to be funny (to me) it has be to mostly based on truth. Snarking at political strawmen is pathetic. Starting with the punchline and libeling someone to purposely make them the butt of a joke is the worst kind of fraud. So watching an episode I'd laugh for a couple of comments then go stone cold. Then along comes Colbert and Oliver - same. How freaking hard is it to poke fun at a politician if you have a staff of writers? It's not. He kept it honed in on his political enemies. Same reason I can't stand Maher - lying sack of crap.

And for some reason Guttfeld couldn't get out of the 1am slot for how many years? (Fox is conservative! *laugh*)

As for the bucktooth slimeball - he was never funny that I saw. (Hint: people who don't live in NYC don't give a crap about NYC nor it's in-jokes. Attn: Lorne Michaels.)

Craig Ferguson is hilarious but was passed over and he moved on. Good for him.

Anonymous Stephen J. July 29, 2015 5:05 PM  

I occasionally find snark funny. But most of it is just flippancy, a term which I've always loathed and finally understood why after Screwtape the Devil's wonderful explanation of why it is so destructive:

"In the first place it is very economical. Only a clever human can make a real Joke about virtue, or indeed about anything else; any of them can be trained to talk as if virtue were funny. Among flippant people the Joke is always assumed to have been made. No one actually makes it; but every serious subject is discussed in a manner which implies that they have already found a ridiculous side to it. If prolonged, the habit of Flippancy builds up around a man the finest armour plating against the Enemy that I know, and it is quite free from the dangers inherent in the other sources of laughter. It is a thousand miles away from joy; it deadens, instead of sharpening, the intellect; and it excites no affection between those who practise it."

I have never watched an episode of The Daily Show or The Colbert Report in my life, and I cannot say I feel any poorer for it.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan July 29, 2015 5:08 PM  

I'll say it again the Left will be sorry it elevated Stewart to be its lead intellectual. Even James Kuntsler at his blog this week realizes his party is completely bereft of any real talent.

If conservatism inc wasn't full of old fuddy duddys living in 1945 the left would be in full retreat, they're pathetic.

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus July 29, 2015 5:17 PM  

Snark is a way for retards to try to appear smart without actually being smart.

Anonymous Porky July 29, 2015 5:22 PM  

"I plan to vote for Barack Obama in the Pennsylvania primary because he is a rational, centered personality who speaks the language of idealism and national unity. Obama has served longer as an elected official than Hillary. He has had experience as a grass-roots activist, and he is also a highly educated lawyer who will be a quick learner in office. His international parentage and childhood, as well as his knowledge of both Christianity and Islam, would make him the right leader at the right time. And his wife Michelle is a powerhouse. The Obamas represent the future, not the past."

Camille Paglia - supergenius feminist.

Blogger JartStar July 29, 2015 5:28 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger JartStar July 29, 2015 5:30 PM  

Somebody better let Scalzi down easy.

Blogger bob k. mando July 29, 2015 5:35 PM  

16. Stephen J. July 29, 2015 5:05 PM
I have never watched an episode of The Daily Show or The Colbert Report in my life, and I cannot say I feel any poorer for it.



i've seen parts of the show ... maybe a couple dozen times? he could be amusing. he could even, at times, be insightful ... on the few occasions when his candidates had fucked up so badly that even he was looking at them going, "wtf, dude?" some of his stuff on the banking crisis wasn't bad.

but no, you didn't miss much.



14. kfg July 29, 2015 4:56 PM
"Cruel artistry" is being given a pat on the back, and three days later you start bleeding internally and doctors can't figure out how to stop it.



many of Vox's opponents are bloodless whores. you can't define it off of the ( lack of ) response of the subject too it.

also, even the ones that have blood, most of them are too stupid to die from blood loss. they'll just stumble around going, "Brains."



15. Elocutioner #0226 July 29, 2015 4:59 PM
Craig Ferguson is hilarious but was passed over and he moved on. Good for him.


CraigyFerg is the very definition of a Game Alpha mack daddy. i don't know how many actresses he had eating out of his hand but it was quite a few. don't get me wrong, he didn't get on with ALL of them, but it was clear when the chemistry wasn't there and the interview was bombing.

and he was hilarious.

and Left as all get out.



11. luagha July 29, 2015 4:46 PM
For one, cruel artistry has depth.


while possible, you've now opened yourself up to "eye of the beholder" critiques.

McRapey claiming that Vox doesn't understand humor, for instance.

in the end, what you're angling for seems to be a "good for we but none for thee" definition.

i note that Vox has made no comment as yet.

Blogger Brad Andrews July 29, 2015 5:39 PM  

@17 So who are the fuddy duddies? How much have they not compromised?

Blogger Brad Andrews July 29, 2015 5:40 PM  

@17 So who are the fuddy duddies? How much have they not compromised?

Anonymous Porky July 29, 2015 5:41 PM  

"I have always frankly admitted that abortion is murder, the extermination of the powerless by the powerful."

"Let's take the issue of abortion rights, of which I am a firm supporter."

Camille Paglia - supergenius feminist

Anonymous Porky July 29, 2015 5:48 PM  

"We must philosophically strengthen feminist theory so that it can admit that abortion is an aggressive act, that it is a form of extermination."

Camille Paglia - supergenius feminist

Anonymous patrick kelly July 29, 2015 5:49 PM  

Cruelty artist is not primarily trying to be funny....or even entertain.....except maybe himself.....

Snark is mostly drive by sound bites...

Anonymous Teddy July 29, 2015 5:53 PM  

Shorter Camille Paglia:

"strawman, strawman, gross over-generalization, unspecified complaint, another unspecified complaint, strawman, hand-waving, false dichotomy...

But I, see through it ALL!!!"

It is rare even among conservatives to find so many logical fallacies and self-congratulation in one piece.

Blogger MidKnight (#138) July 29, 2015 5:58 PM  

For snark to be funny (to me) it has be to mostly based on truth. Snarking at political strawmen is pathetic.

Oh yes - and Stewart is just a hack.

A dishonest one at that.

Shortly before one of the Romney-Obama debates, Stewart had done an entire segment poking fun at the Obama admin for weeks of refusing to allow that terrorism might have had ANYTHING to do with benghazi.

After the debate, because Obama had actually used the word "terror" (in a completely different context) he eviscerated Romney as stupid for putting Obama on the spot for not calling it terrorist related.

Blogger Jourdan July 29, 2015 5:59 PM  

I agree that that the pre-Carson blow up Letterman was substantially different than the lousy Letterman we got at CBS after that. The NBC late night was, as said above, funny in a Midwestern goofy guy way, not very snarky at all.

I disagree about Hitchens, with qualifications: he can't write worth shite about religion nor about Israel/Palestine, for well-known reasons. A lot of his other essays, though, I think will stand the test of time.

My favorite memory of Hitchens was a very long time ago, as an undergrad. He had participated in a panel on the press during the Reagan era. Afterwards, a bunch of people ended up talking with him and the end result was a very late nigh debate between Hitchens and a fellow undergrad of mine, a young Jewish left-wing woman. The topic was Israel, of course. As it approached 2.30am, she said she should leave it was getting late. He offered to escort her home, which she slapped down hard as patronizing and sexist.

When she had gone, he lit a smoke (you could smoke in those days) and said something like "well, that didn't go well."

And then I said what I think was the first truly right-wing thing I had ever said in my life. I said to him "Don't feel bad, how could you not have offered that? You are the son of a Commander of the Royal Navy."

He broke into a wide grin. "I suppose I am," he said.

I don't think he ever realized how much of what he supposed was common human decency that all good people possess was actually a very specific British inheritance he received from his family.

Well, at least the other Hitchens has come to realize this.

Blogger Joshua Sinistar July 29, 2015 6:00 PM  

Snark is the substitute for satire when the host doesn't have the likeability and wit to pull it off. All these shows are fake and the studio audience is told to clap like seals when the applause sign lights up. They usually have comedians warm up the audience before the show to lighten the mood before the host comes in and mugs for the camera.
Back on NBC, Letterman was one of those guys that did lame interviews but had funny segments like stupid pet tricks and dropping shit off of high places. He was more of a skit artist than a host, but Carson wanted him to follow him when he retired. carson had a huge and expensive contract and when Arsenio the black cool clown who kissed ass for a living started beating Johnny in the ratings NBC used it as an excuse to cancel his contract to avoid the huge retirement they had to pay him when it ran out. Letterman got the shaft when Carson did, and they brought in the chin Leno, because he was an asskisser like Arsenio and a lot of the Hollywood clique were afraid of being roasted by Letterman.
After Letterman went to CBS, they gave him a shitload of money and he just phoned it in cause he a guaranteed contract. Eventually he became a bitter old man when Leno started beating him in the ratings by giving more in-depth and interesting interviews. Letterman will probably only be remembered after he retires by people who read Miller's Batman the Dark Knight Returns, where the Joker kills an asshole talk show host and his audience and the asshole looks just like Letterman.

Blogger YIH July 29, 2015 6:12 PM  

The reason Leno beat out all those who were challenging those who sought to replace Carson was the fact that Leno (and Carson) ''could reach the rest of the country''. Not just the NYC/LA ''hives''.
It's why Joan Rivers failed when she got her FOX show competing head-to-head with Leno. She focused on LA and didn't care about the rest of the country. Same with Letterman, when he followed up Carson he could at least fake ''flyover country'' humor. Once he got installed into NYC by CBS he reverted to type and figured ''I got hooked up by my people, I can just phone it in'' and that's what happened.

Anonymous Steve July 29, 2015 6:16 PM  

My understanding of the difference between snark and cruelty artistry is that snark is an attitude. Cruelty is a sport.

Snark - think Janeane Garofolo during her ladytime. Or Daria, from Daria. It's sometimes funny, sometimes clever, but more commonly pointless cynicism for the sake of being cynical.

It's an essentially feminine characteristic. Bitchy with a sprinkling of passive aggressive irony.

Snark is like profanity. In moderation it's fine, but too much of it is lazy and off-putting. So, Jon Stewart is a funny guy with good comic timing, but when he decided to go full snarktard with the constant mugging and the eye rolling and the silly voices it quickly became wearying.

The clown beclowned himself, becoming a caricature in a way more commonly seen in sitcom characters.

Cruelty artistry - Before considering what makes the artistry of cruelty, it's important to distinguish between cruelty and its lowbrow cousin, brutality. Any brute can be brutal, but cruelty is more deft.

Brutality: Big Seanan McGuire is a buttergolem.

Cruelty: Big Seanan McGuire's natural enemy is stairs.

Unlike snark, which is ultimately about drawing attention to how much smarter and more sophisticated the 16 year old girl using it is, the object of cruelty artistry is to verbally flay your target with elegance and panache.

Like a matador toying with an enraged bull, the cruelty artist is a performer, not a butcher. It's all about the strutting and the nimble flourishes.

Blogger hank.jim July 29, 2015 6:18 PM  

Snark suggests the person making the snark is smarter than this target. Jon Stewart is not smarter. His leaving a year earlier than Obama's last year as President is the smart move. He is avoiding his biggest targeting Obama, his true target. The idiot believes in Obama. He has no credibility.

Blogger bw July 29, 2015 6:27 PM  

a disease that started with David Letterman and jumped to Jon Stewart

Must be ethno-genetic tribalism or something...

Blogger Markku July 29, 2015 6:29 PM  

Daria was quintessential Generation X. If there is any series that perfectly captured GenX, it is Daria.

Anonymous Giuseppe July 29, 2015 6:30 PM  

Meh. Camille Paglia is overhyped in my opinion. She's kind of an educated Hitchens. And she still has a snark factor that's high, just more refined.
Like a good old friend of mine used to say about people like this: They are very much like a latrine pit: Very deep. And still full of shit.

She also reminds me a bit of a Nazi "doctor". Vivisectioning "religions" while missing the point entirely. I'll take an honest to God Nazi stormtrooper over someone like that thanks. At least they are obvious and shooting them is generally acceptable. While people like Paglia poison the well in such little doses that people start to think it's fine wine.

Blogger Markku July 29, 2015 6:32 PM  

There is a slight difference between millennial, Jon Stewart snark and Daria snark. Jon Stewart is try-hard. He is TRYING to be a clown. But Daria just allowed the bile to overflow from her.

Blogger VD July 29, 2015 6:33 PM  

could you explain the difference between "snark" and "cruel artistry"?

Snark is superficial and obvious. Cruelty artistry is deep and insidious. Snark is trivial and quickly forgotten by the target even if it registers. Cruelty artistry bothers the target for years afterwards.

Snark is based on flippancy. Cruelty artistry is based on truth. There are few things crueler than holding up a mirror to an individual who has been avoiding looking at himself for years and making him see how he looks to others.

Anonymous The Obvious July 29, 2015 6:37 PM  

@28

You called it, I don't get the appeal of her at all.

Anonymous Logan July 29, 2015 6:49 PM  

"...it is everyone’s obligation, whatever your political views, to look at both liberal and conservative news sources every single day. You need a full range of viewpoints to understand what is going on in the world."

This is one of many reasons why I like Paglia. For too many people political discourse is an endless cycle of self-congratulatory patting themselves on the back and refusing to engage with those who have different views. Question-begging assumptions and vilifying epithets are the order of the day.

Anonymous Azimus July 29, 2015 6:49 PM  

Snark is not an art, nor is it funny. It appears, in the encounters I've had with it (many, but admittedly anecdotal), to be a knee-jerk defense mechanism, a sort of "nuh-uh" level of rhetoric with a minor element of humor added in to deflect, ending in aloof dismissal.

I do not find David Letterman to be a funny man. I would say I laugh at 1-3% of his monologue, at least in 2015. Then again, I find Kevin James to be a funny man, so it's not that I'm too sophisticated for Letterman, I just find him to be a jack@ss with an undeserved superiority complex resulting from years of audiences laughing at his every word on electric cue (I think he's smart enough to know it though). I will be glad when he is gone, but since I catch 5-10 monologues a year it's not like he's causing me heartache or anything.

Blogger Sam Lively July 29, 2015 6:53 PM  

I though Paglia's point about Trump being a better comedian because he could take hits in stride and genuinely surprise people rang true.

Stewart hasn't flexed any real muscle since he took down Tucker Carlson (who was an easy mark anyways). Retreated to his echo chamber and started laughing at his own jokes.

Blogger Markku July 29, 2015 6:54 PM  

Stewart had a few mannerisms that would have been amusing once or twice. But as the show as a whole, I'm going to quote Zero Punctuation on Portal:

If Portal had the comedic value of a perfectly timed fart, then Portal references at this stage are a fart that has been going on for six or seven minutes, and now the stench in the room is causing bouts of spontaneous vomiting, and a strange, blood-flecked liquid is dripping from the perpetrator's anus.

Anonymous Steve July 29, 2015 6:57 PM  

Markku - also, Daria was a brilliant comic creation.

Jon Stewart... less so.

Anonymous Donn #0114 July 29, 2015 6:58 PM  

I always liked Carson. Too young to remember Jack Paar. Hated Letterman and John Stewart or Colbert. I guess I am too dull in my tastes for modern humor.

Blogger Cail Corishev July 29, 2015 6:58 PM  

The quote about flippancy was very helpful. I'm thinking that snark might be defined as sarcasm or satire used specifically to downplay an uncomfortable truth or push away a painful thought -- as opposed to when those things are used honestly to expose a truth. As Azimus said, the snarker isn't doing it for fun; it's more of a defense mechanism. And being seen as smart is a huge part of it; if it's not a performance for the peanut gallery, it's probably not snark. That's what I'm getting so far.

Now for someone like Stewart, since it was scripted in advance, the defense mechanism part doesn't seem to fit -- except that he was providing that defense mechanism for his audience, who loved him for it. He snarked about things to let them know those things weren't important and could be safely ridiculed.

And Daria was brilliant, dammit.

Anonymous Steve July 29, 2015 7:11 PM  

So it is agreed then.

The Evil Legion of Evil and its ultramarines tercio, The Evil Legion of Stevil, hereby evilly resolve to:

* Take over the Hugos
* Take over the world
* Expand the terrifying-yet-tasteful empire of our Dark Lord throughout the universe and any alternate universes
* Gather to feast on the barbecued eyeballs of our defeated foes, AND
* Watch Daria DVDs

Blogger rcocean July 29, 2015 7:15 PM  

Its kinda sad the way some conservatives are still defending Jon Stewart. Its always been obvious he was a liberal Democrat giving the Republican/Conservatives 90% of his snark, but some conservatives just can't get enough of that Comedy Central kool-aid. As for Letterman - given that he was actually a snarky, bitter Liberal who couldn't talk to anyone to the Right of Obama without sneering - it seems the NBC suits were correct in giving the Tonight Show to Jay.

Blogger rcocean July 29, 2015 7:18 PM  

The hatred toward Paglia from the Left has to seen to be believed. Any dissent cannot be tolerated. The fact that's she right, makes it even worse for them. That Hitchen's was a poor thinker and a boozy, shallow writer is just one truth they can't accept. Already, I see all the copies of his books sitting on the Library shelves day after day. Does anyone check them out? I don't think so.

Blogger luagha July 29, 2015 7:21 PM  

Came across a Daria retrospective recently and had it on in the background.

Daria had a parody of reality shows called, "Sick Sad World!" It was intended to be over the top absurd. .. but now all its ideas have been done.

Blogger bob k. mando July 29, 2015 7:25 PM  

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/snark?s=t
1. to be critical in a rude or sarcastic way:
to snark about the neighbors.
2. rude or sarcastic criticism.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm
1. harsh or bitter derision or irony.
2. a sharply ironical taunt; sneering or cutting remark:


http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=snark
Combination of "snide" and "remark". Sarcastic comment(s).


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/snide?s=t
1. derogatory in a nasty, insinuating manner:



39. VD July 29, 2015 6:33 PM
Cruelty artistry bothers the target for years afterwards.
Snark is based on flippancy. Cruelty artistry is based on truth.


fair enough. you've damn sure gotten under McRapey's skin.

i would note though, there is nothing inherently untruthful about 'flippancy'.

and, as i said previously, there are no few of your opponents who are just too damn stupid to understand what you're saying. defining 'cruel artistry' by the reaction of your target suffers from the fundamental weakness of allowing *them* to define what you're doing.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/flippant?s=t

the fundamental truth of cuckservatism is this:
anyone who tries to deny or obliterate the differences between cultures and races SERVES INTERNATIONAL COMMUNISM.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza July 29, 2015 7:29 PM  

Good Letterman retired, the officious and garrulous boomers are annoying.

Anonymous Anonymous July 29, 2015 7:41 PM  

The darkness is upon us.

Now we must deal with it - our terms or theirs.

End of subject.

Pax - jb

Blogger YIH July 29, 2015 7:49 PM  

For those who though Daria had anything, look what that show was spun off of: Beavis and Butthead.
The character was IMHO the lamest, least funny aspect of Beavis and Butthead. MTV focused on Daria in the hope they could salvage the attention B&B got. It didn't work.
Meanwhile, Mike Judge took his resume to FOX who was looking to copy the success they had with The Simpsons. King of the Hill while never becoming as successful as The Simpsons did quite well.
Mike Judge (and even Matt Greonig) at least understood that there are more than a few people who don't live in SoCal or the NYC metro area.
Why do you think in The Simpsons 'Springfield' was only vaguely defined as being where snow is typical in winter?

Blogger Arborist (#0232) July 29, 2015 7:52 PM  

I'll bet Paglia loves Daria too.

Blogger Markku July 29, 2015 7:54 PM  

It didn't work commercially, but it did perfectly capture one type of generation X member. We all knew us some Beavises and Buttheads with their Metallica shirts. That was easy humor to understand. Daria was harder. Most of us stayed far away from those kind of girls.

I didn't watch Daria either at the time it aired. I only recognized its accuracy on hindsight.

Anonymous Azimus July 29, 2015 8:01 PM  

LP 999/Eliza July 29, 2015 7:29 PM
Good Letterman retired, the officious and garrulous boomers are annoying.


I caught that new chubby English fellow - not Ferguson whom I assume is Scotch - not sure which show he's hosting as I was flicking through channels, but I was entertained and it was reasonably clean.

Blogger Cail Corishev July 29, 2015 8:48 PM  

The character [Daria] was IMHO the lamest, least funny aspect of Beavis and Butthead.

You didn't get the joke.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza July 29, 2015 9:11 PM  

#1 correct, in this era people emote not think or even process their own doom. its rather bittwersweet how boomers trash genxers while genx ignores them.

Thumbs down to comedy central from day one.

Anonymous zen0 July 29, 2015 9:16 PM  

@52 Bob K.

the fundamental truth of cuckservatism is this:
anyone who tries to deny or obliterate the differences between cultures and races SERVES INTERNATIONAL COMMUNISM.


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now, if you add religions you will hit the Satanist trifecta.

"Many paths to God" is Luciferian. And Yes, the Pope said it. Draw your own conclusions.

Blogger Doom July 29, 2015 9:32 PM  

Meh. Snark has it's place. It's place just isn't every place, all the time.

Anonymous Not-So-Merry zen0 July 29, 2015 9:33 PM  

@28 Teddy

I am convinced. Paglia is a vacuous cunt becuse she always has an excuse to vote for liberal BS after she has eviscerated it.

Of course, she sees men as being threatened by female sexuality because it is so expansive in scope.

Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, know what I mean, know what I mean.?

Blogger ray July 29, 2015 9:43 PM  

"His international parentage and childhood, as well as his knowledge of both Christianity and Islam, would make him the right leader at the right time. And his wife Michelle is a powerhouse. The Obamas represent the future, not the past."


Yep. Lot of good all that research 'n writing about late Paleolithic and Neolithic cultures did her. She's a proud Feminist and not merely a tool of the sistem, but a well-greased gear. Barry and Michelle never did a productive thing in their lives, except play the victims while being massively empowered, elevated and enriched. Yet they still resent Sexist and Racist America.

Ptooey on Paglia.

Blogger Guitar Man July 29, 2015 9:59 PM  

Say what you will about Leno, but his YouTube show is very good.

Anonymous The other robot July 29, 2015 10:02 PM  

Support Palmer! Who cares about a damn lion?

Anonymous zen0 July 29, 2015 10:34 PM  

@64 Ray Ptooey on Paglia.

Yah, sure, but no swarming.She is still useful.

That is where the Maoists went wrong, they did not know where to draw the line..

I had a teacher that was put on a train to Beijing to struggle session the running dogs of capitalism during the cultural revolution.

They just had to pee their pants or hang out the side to take a shit, If they could work their way through the mass of humanity to a possible shitting area.

We don't need that king of bullshit here, eh?

Anonymous Not-So-Merry zen0 July 29, 2015 10:35 PM  

hah! I said King instead of Kind.

Woohoo!

Blogger MendoScot July 29, 2015 11:05 PM  

Good grief. Do any of you remember the threads on skepticism? Paglia is a left-wing lesbian feminist who:

SJWs always lie - nope. She admits abortion is murder.

SJWs always double down - nope. She clearly understands the difference between rhetoric and dialectic.

SJWs always project - nope. Well, sometimes. But not always.

She would easily pass Lewis' test for the capacity to perceive beauty, and has repeatedly defended the religious origin of genuine art.

To put it in terms of the current debates, there is a fundamental difference between cuckservatives and someone who will pursue her own vision against her Weltanschauung.

Blogger Thordaddy July 29, 2015 11:18 PM  

And what is this pagan-"native American" sexuality other than let your females let it all hang out and think you're Alpha because you don't care?

Blogger Caher O'Neill July 30, 2015 12:18 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Casher O'Neill July 30, 2015 12:23 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Casher O'Neill July 30, 2015 12:27 AM  

Vox, I know what you think about "those who are are not against us . . . " but at some point you and the vestigial right have to end you love affair with Camille Paglia.

"Totally! It’s been such a long time–I thought it was gone forever! Bernie Sanders has the authentic, empathic, 1960s radical voice. It’s so refreshing."

She is a fangirl, a feminist, and she is never going to be part of a left-wing circular firing squad. She will approve of you being put in a mass grave in a forest with the rest of them. She has already won the victory over herself.

Anonymous Anon123 July 30, 2015 12:28 AM  

Btw, has anyone seen this: http://www.thelocal.it/20140827/refugees-protest-against-monotonous-italian-food ? Refugees angrily demand cuisine from their own countries. Just another confirmation of why if you give an inch, theyll take a mile.

Anonymous Ano123 July 30, 2015 12:30 AM  

I dont know. Normally, if someone worships Bernie Sanders I typically laugh them off, but he recently started an almost Trump-level scuffle among leftists by opposing open borders and saying anyone who supports it is on the side of Big Business. Ezra Klein obviously expected him to pick the antiracist position, and ended up looking stupid. I never liked Sanders before, but that interview alone already makes him okay in my book, even if he is a stupid socialist.

Blogger MendoScot July 30, 2015 12:35 AM  

Ask her, if you're so interested Thordaddy. Maybe you can get a bit of pagan belly-licking to replace your compulsive VP-posting.

Anonymous Gx1080 July 30, 2015 12:49 AM  

Salon comments:

"How dares that old woman to suggest mercy for our enemies?".

For "the right side of history", the fact that people even dare to try to oppose them is a unforgivable sin that deserves to be punished as harshly as possible, to make an example. I think that only manages to expose progressives as a bunch of screaming lunatics that believe that people won't notice their intellectual and moral cowardice if they are loud enough.

Blogger Joshua Sinistar July 30, 2015 12:57 AM  

Camille Paglia is a victim of her own success. Being a natural carpet muncher, she became an early sixties sisterhood of squeal member during the early days of female delusionment. However, as the movement went left, she had the disillusionment that most true believers have when they begin to realize that the movement is just a front for Marxism. She signed on for equality, but the Gynosupremacists don't want equality they want Wonder Woman Amazon Warriors for Marxist/Leninism.
Poor little Camille was a casualty of the relentless march towards doom that the Left has undertaken to destroy Western Civilization for the glorious Femininny future where women can realize enlightenment as comfort women for The Hunger Dogs of Granny Badness on the Dark Side of Crazy.

Blogger Thordaddy July 30, 2015 12:57 AM  

Mendoscot...

When does setting aside 15 minutes every couple days to post at VoxDay become obsessive? The 12th minute... 13 and a half? When? If Vox really kneels to Truth then he'll bend to my will just as I kneel to Truth.

PS I know a thing or two or three or four about "native Americans" and I find Vox's desire to defend his beliefs behind the mirage of "Mexican/native American" rather inexplicable outside his oft repeated justification.

Blogger Casher O'Neill July 30, 2015 12:58 AM  

Anon123 @74 If I learned one thing from following politics, it is that you should never be surprised. By all means spread the message, but never be surprised. With any absurd political news just remember what Anne Riordan said to Philip Marlowe about snapping a bad girl's garter: "you're a late comer to the show." The demands of those who impose themselves on any particular society (if they can be called such) are now a basic human right. Disagree? Starve, burn, die hater!

Blogger Thordaddy July 30, 2015 12:59 AM  

Faggots INSTINCTIVELY DESIRE dyke leadership!

Blogger bob k. mando July 30, 2015 1:40 AM  

Thordaddy July 29, 2015 11:18 PM
And what is this pagan-"native American" sexuality other than let your females let it all hang out



wow, no. the Amerindians were pretty seriously into normal gender roles.

what Paglia is talking about is the supposed acceptance of "two-spirit" or genderqueer people that was also supposed to be going on.

that is, a nominal male was supposedly allowed to join the women in their duties if he was effeminate ... but he would then be treated like a woman.


61. zen0 July 29, 2015 9:16 PM
Now, if you add religions you will hit the Satanist trifecta.



*shrugs*

you can add as many elements of Marxism to that that you want.

others would include
* control of interest rates through a national bank
* free schooling
* a heavy progressive or graduated income tax
* heavy inheritance taxes
* deficit spending
* government spending to aid and abet abortion mills being used as body farms

Lenin said, "The way to crush the bourgeoisie is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation."

Anonymous Sensei July 30, 2015 2:23 AM  

"...flippancy is the best of all. In the first place it is very economical. Only a clever human can make a real Joke about virtue, or indeed about anything else; any of them can be trained to talk as if virtue were funny. Among flippant people the joke is always assumed to have been made. No one actually makes it; but every serious subject is discussed in a manner which implies that they have already found a ridiculous side to it. If prolonged, the habit of Flippancy builds up around a man the finest armour-plating against the Enemy [God] that I know, and it is quite free from the dangers inherent in the other sources of laughter. It is a thousand miles away from joy: it deadens, instead of sharpening, the intellect; and it excites no affection between those who practise it"

-Screwtape Letters

Anonymous MPC July 30, 2015 3:09 AM  

I've noticed a lot of journalists (or just random idiots on social media) who try to copy that condescending style that Jon Stewart uses. Why ask people how they came to their conclusions, when you can drop a snappy zinger on them and act self satisfied afterwards?

The only problem is that they don't have the benefit of Stewart's writing team and cherry picked soundbites behind them. So they fall back to the old progressive stand-by of "UGH! REALLY? I CAN'T EVEN!"

It's irritating to think that a 5" 4 tall mediocre stand-up comic had such a big influence on pop culture and politics at large, and for the worse.

Blogger Eric July 30, 2015 3:37 AM  

That kind of snark allows you to feel smart (and look smart to other people of that stripe) without actually knowing anything. But when you run up against people who are actually smart you get your ass handed to you, as Stewart's ass was handed to him by John Yoo.

Blogger Thordaddy July 30, 2015 3:38 AM  

Bob... I'm trying to imagine 35,000 years from now, even with all our newfound ways of archiving information, those very social scientists of the future rummaging about some patch of land once known as the United States of America making definitive claims to the roles of males and females out of the "stuff" they find?

I look at "native American" society today and I don't see any real evidence of strict gender roles nor any kind of nuclear family concept. Whatever is the pagan/"Native American" sexuality being talked about, it is not Christian sexual morality and thus a variation of radical sexual autonomy to which letting your males play female would so qualify.

Anonymous Laz July 30, 2015 4:00 AM  

@ 57. Markku: "We all knew us some Beavises and Buttheads with their Metallica shirts."

Did you notice how quickly those Metallica shirts became tattoos? Lots and lots of tattoos.

"Most of us stayed far away from those kind of girls."

I found them easy pickings, show them a little attention and they're putty in your hands. I broke more than a few out of their shell and brought them into the fold (the aforementioned B&B crew).

Blogger Groot July 30, 2015 5:20 AM  

Craig Ferguson rules. His flirtation dominates and is endlessly hilarious. When I was a young tree, tall and awesome, I could fascinate the distaff side, and his humor sustained me. What great times. Craig, to you!!

Anonymous 0007 July 30, 2015 8:10 AM  

Stewart(and Cobert as well) was never about news; rather he(they) was just the another propagandist from the DNC/media whores(BIRM). Unfortunately, the past few generations have deliberately not been taught to recognize BS for what it is.

Blogger Joshua Dyal July 30, 2015 8:32 AM  

@89: Many more of them have than you know actually can recognize the BS for what it is. Young folks are very cynical about politicians and the media, even if they are somewhat apathetic about it in general.

Heck, even here they slam the media: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhQfUiDhjQg

Blogger VFM bot #188 July 30, 2015 8:47 AM  

I don’t believe there is a God, but I respect every religion deeply. All the great world religions contain a complex system of beliefs regarding the nature of the universe and human life that is far more profound than anything that liberalism has produced.

What She Said.

Blogger VFM bot #188 July 30, 2015 10:13 AM  

Letterman, Colbert, and Stewart were and are assholes. They lived on snark, and snark is closely related to sneering.

It's all they had. Endless sneering.

Blogger lordabacus July 30, 2015 10:38 AM  

Paglia's view of religion is indeed more nuanced and, one is even tempted to admit, more profound than that of Dawkins & Hitchens (we have been given no reason to think she's read Harris). It's also the view offered by Clifford Geertz in his classic essay on the definition of religion, required reading in many a 200-level anthropology course (https://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.topic152604.files/Week_4/Geertz_Religon_as_a_Cultural_System_.pdf). She's been aping him for a long time, even using the phrase "symbol systems," and as far as I can tell has never given him credit. (http://radioopensource.org/back-to-god-with-camille-paglia/)

Blogger lordabacus July 30, 2015 10:53 AM  

Also, this line has nothing to do with the New Atheists she was asked to comment on: "I find it completely hypocritical for people in academe or the media to demand understanding of Muslim beliefs and yet be so derisive and dismissive of the devout Christian beliefs of Southern conservatives."

Anonymous KBT July 30, 2015 11:46 AM  

I like Letterman at one time. He seemed like an unlikely underdog to be a TV show host. It wasn't pure snark in the early years, and the goofy stunts were fun.

At some point, though, he morphed from "Ha, aren't we having fun at the playhouse today" to "Boy, you must be an idiot to watch this".

>>>"Daria was harder. Most of us stayed far away from those kind of girls."

Really? I was a misanthrope by age 12. I would love to have met someone like her in high school.

There is no such thing as "pointless" cynicism in this world.

Blogger Brad Andrews July 30, 2015 11:53 AM  

Daria was just a realist. Things are cynical today. Commercial success is irrelevant. I have only seen a few clips of B&B, but I couldn't stand what I saw, mostly due to the juvenile humor. (I don't care for South Park either.) But I have watched most of Daria and enjoyed it, finding it fairly accurate in many ways.

Other things have failed in number of shows, but are still liked.

I am certainly not MTVs core target demographic though.

Blogger Joshua Sinistar July 30, 2015 12:30 PM  

Yeah, she really doesn't understand Eastern Religions. She got the pop culture version in the 1960s by con artists like the Maharishi that old fool that ran a sex cult and rode around in a fleet of Rolls Royces. None of these people understand the Eastern way which is a very fatalistic and serious version of life based on responsibility to your ancestors and family. If she knew anything about these Eastern ways she wouldn't be a lesbian, but would have a family and be close to her relatives because that's what the Eastern ways are all about. She has a cotton candy carnival ride view of Eastern Culture from hippie yippie potheads who sampled it like going to a foodtasting booth at a festival or something. She would be lost and laughed at in the Eastern Mysticism that exists on the other side of the World. Modernism and the Ancient ways do not mix at all. Its like oil and water.

Blogger Markku July 30, 2015 1:16 PM  

Really? I was a misanthrope by age 12. I would love to have met someone like her in high school.

There is no such thing as "pointless" cynicism in this world.


Not because of their cynicism, but because they went out of their way to make social situations with them difficult - because of their excessive cynicism. They expected that any new person they'd come across would be an idiot.

Blogger Markku July 30, 2015 1:30 PM  

When you become a Daria, it turns into a vicious circle and a self-fulfilling prophecy. All your interactions with other people will be unpleasant because they never willingly engage you - as it's unpleasant for them too. They only engage when they absolutely have to. When they need something from you, or need you to stop doing something. And that's a negative interaction.

Blogger Markku July 30, 2015 1:33 PM  

As for B&B, I remember someone having made the very insightful observation that it is not satire about some unintelligent and lazy teenage boys. It is satire about American society that makes it possible for said unintelligent and lazy teenage boys to thrive in it.

Anonymous KBT July 30, 2015 2:36 PM  

The best parts of B&B were when they made fun of the videos. Some real well placed daggers happened in those segments.

It's no surprise to me that Mike Judge went on to make Idiocracy.

Blogger Cail Corishev July 30, 2015 2:55 PM  

Come on, you can't claim to be a fan of Daria and say the public schools can be fixed. That's like Ted Nugent claiming to be a fan of The View.

Anonymous Donn #0114 July 30, 2015 3:03 PM  

"Brought to you by Carl's jr."

Blogger ray July 30, 2015 3:22 PM  

Been thru lots worse than that, Zen-o. Right here in the good old u.s. of a. too!

As for Maoists, they couldn't go wrong because they never had it right. Not exactly my model for human organization. But that's what happens when you eat dragon eggs for breakfast every day. Cheers.

Anonymous Full-Fledged Fiasco July 30, 2015 5:42 PM  

"He sold that book on the basis of the brilliant chapter titles. If he had actually done the research and the work, where each chapter had the substance of those wonderful chapter titles..."

What is so brilliant about these titles?

Blogger VFM bot #188 July 30, 2015 6:08 PM  

Hey, they look pretty catchy to me...but then who the hell am I? Vile. Faceless. Minion. Nobody.

Anonymous Sarcophilous August 02, 2015 11:00 PM  

http://tomwoods.com/blog/no-youre-not-a-dummy-for-believing-in-god/

Anonymous Jack Amok August 04, 2015 12:12 AM  

I look at "native American" society today and I don't see any real evidence of strict gender roles nor any kind of nuclear family concept

Yeah, or you could look at what notes and observations we have about Amerindian society before they were herded off onto reservations and their culture obliterated, either by their conquerors or by themselves in reaction to the cataclysmic defeat they suffered. Looking at Reservation Indians today tells you nothing about what was before.

. Whatever is the pagan/"Native American" sexuality being talked about, it is not Christian sexual morality and thus a variation of radical sexual autonomy to which letting your males play female would so qualify.

I guess you missed the part where she specifically talks about studying non-Christian religions.

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