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Thursday, July 09, 2015

The war at Tor

Like a swan swimming across a pond, what looks like serenity from the outside often masks a tremendous amount of activity going on beneath the surface. Over the last few weeks I've had several conversations with executives at Tor Books, Macmillan, and Macmillan UK, and I can assure you that there is a very good reason for Mr. George Martin's sudden and repeated calls for supporters of Irene Gallo and others at Tor Books to "denounce and oppose" the ongoing Tor boycott.
For those who want to stand up to the bullies and rabids and their Tor boycott, please note that SONGS OF THE DYING EARTH was published by Tor. (They were also Jack Vance's publisher for most of the last few decades).  
That was a pretty good anthology actually. Despite the best efforts of the various authors it seldom rose to full-blown Vancean heights, but I quite liked the Tanith Lee and John C. Wright stories it contained. What Martin appears to be trying to do with his multiple posts on the subject is make it harder for the executives at Macmillan to hold anyone at Tor Books responsible for their repeated violations of the Macmillan Code of Conduct or for their attacks on Tor's authors and customers. And although Martin is unwilling to come right out and say it, he is offering an implicit threat that if Macmillan does the right thing and jettisons the unprofessional parties concerned, he and other SJWs will launch their own boycott of Tor and take their future books to other publishers.

The reason George is doing this now is because he knows what's going on inside Tor thanks to his various contacts there. Things are getting very heated, as it has been reported that Patrick Nielsen Hayden has threatened to take his Scalzi (and other writers) and go elsewhere if either Irene Gallo or Moshe Feder are fired or forced to resign. Whether John Scalzi backs PNH to this extent or not (and if he is even aware of this threat on his behalf or not), I do not know, but I personally find it very difficult to believe that Scalzi would ever consent to put his ten-year contract with Tor Books in jeopardy for anyone's sake. He may be grateful to PNH for launching and repeatedly propping up his career, but he's not THAT grateful.

If it's true that PNH is threatening to take his ball and go to DAW or some other publishing home, it's an amateurish move that demonstrates the very sort of entitled unprofessionalism and poor decision-making that has put Tor Books into the current situation in the first place. But it shouldn't be a surprise that PNH might be taking this line, as he would not be the only Tor-affiliated individual who to take such a stance. For example, Tor author Mary Robinette Kowal has already publicly threatened to return the advances for her next two books and take them elsewhere if Ms Gallo is fired.
‏ @RizziWorld How about this. If they fire Irene, I will return the advances on my next two books and pull them.
7:23 AM - 14 Jun 2015
What a noble gesture in support of an employee's right to publicly attack the company's customers! Anyhow, if Mr. Nielsen Hayden was in fact foolish enough to threaten his superiors in any way, I expect he will soon receive an object lesson in the realities of corporate power.

And for the witch hunters at Tor who are desperate to learn with whom I have been speaking, I am kind enough to give you one little hint. Go to my Twitter account, search through it, and see who has commented on my tweets. I think you will find the results to be illuminating.

Labels: ,

162 Comments:

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 July 09, 2015 10:13 AM  

If they don't like the rules, they should go and make their own publishing company. With millions in advances for new authors who write about transgender cis-hitwomen who only target vampire children with cleft lips. And then they can expand their business to launch all SJWs to the moon in order to terraform it in an effort to make scifi reality. Follow this up with research into creating a third gender and you have a money making publisher right there.

Blogger JartStar July 09, 2015 10:15 AM  

Over the next ten years many corporations are going to have to decide if they want to be consistent or if they want to support an ideology. Social media just makes it too easy to spot their employees who violate a corporate code of conduct. It's important to expose their hypocrisy if they don't act.

Anonymous cremes July 09, 2015 10:20 AM  

Having spent a good chunk of my early career in Corporate America, I have firsthand experience with what happens when a subordinate (like @pnh) set an ultimatum with their boss. Even if they are *right and correct* with the substance of their demand, the boss knows that if he (she!) caves now then there *will be* future demands.

A blackmailer is never satisfied.

If what VD says here is true, then anyone who makes the demand or agrees to be *party to the demand* will get bounced.

Macmillan may value @pnh's (and others) contributions, but they value their own control far more.

Anonymous Porphyry July 09, 2015 10:22 AM  

I just realized that the only reason Rape ^2 isn't on the sjw hit list is bc he's too big to fail. I kept wondering why the Rabbits let him associate; you know with all his rape and trial by combat and stuff and then it hit me. Rabbits don't think in terms of morality except when they trample all over it. They think in terms of popularity. Mind Blown.

Blogger Marissa July 09, 2015 10:31 AM  

Go to my Twitter account, search through it, and see who has commented on my tweets.

Also...that tweet of Vox's wife.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer July 09, 2015 10:33 AM  

What makes him think any other publishers will want him? And threatening your boss with leaving if you don't get your way is idiotic. Even if they keep you it is going to be for the short term. They will find a way to shaft you.

OpenID crash July 09, 2015 10:33 AM  

Interesting, I have been following this and asking myself what makes the puppies think they can win this ?

Please don't take offense at the question. I realize it may seem obnoxious but it's legitimate. Over the years, these people have marched inexorably forward and nothing has seemed to stop them.* So when I look at the sites you point out, such as file 770 George Martin's site I see what appears to be a larger group of commenters and a large number of blogs compared to the relatively few on the puppy side. This battle would appear to be one for numbers, no ?

Personally I have been in defacto boycott of Tor for over a decade. I started reading SF with AE Van Vogt when you could buy a paperback for a quarter. (Think of the numbers and think of everything we have lost as a society there). George O Smith, Clarke, Niven, Pournelle were all the type of authors I loved and they just haven't been coming from the big houses for awhile. I don't know how many there are like me, but while we would be the people likely to take your side, we also had already been voting with our wallets to little avail.

Good luck on the fight.

*And yes I am a Republican so I am used to winning the wars but still losing everything of value

Blogger Quizzer W July 09, 2015 10:35 AM  

Would any other major house hire PNH? I did a decade in the corporate world, weird things happen. People I fired got rehired in another department. Nobody asked about the firing or apparently read the extensive documentation needed to do such a thing.

This is all taking place very publicly, though. Who would drink the poison he offers? Even if you fully support the SJW agenda, I have a hard time believing it would happen given everything that has happened. Now, a large backer and the formation of a new publishing company? Sure, I could see that.

The results of such an experiment would be interesting :->

Anonymous Sigfader July 09, 2015 10:35 AM  

Porphyry: Yes and no. IMO they tend to think more of ethics than morality. Popularity is what decides ethics (thus relatively amorphous) while morality is fixed.

Blogger Peter July 09, 2015 10:36 AM  

Entertainment at last! This should be worth watching.

(Settles back in easy chair with bowl of popcorn and a beer.)

:-)

Blogger Edd Jobs July 09, 2015 10:38 AM  

Patrick Nielsen Hayden has threatened to take his Scalzi (and other writers) and go elsewhere

CreateSpace!

OpenID crazdmadman July 09, 2015 10:40 AM  

"I will return the advances on my next two books and pull them."

I wonder if Tor would actually come out ahead on that deal...

Blogger Victor July 09, 2015 10:40 AM  

I just sent John C Wright $25 via his paypal on his site. If an author doesn't have anything on their site I suggest send them an email and ask. Don't ask for anything in return though as they likely don't have the rights to sell some of their works.

Anonymous Minion #0172 July 09, 2015 10:41 AM  

Not only would Johnny Con not go along with PNH to another publisher, he would be absolutely correct in doing so. His first loyalty is to his wife and child. I have no doubt they have made life plans for that money and it would be foolish to jeopardize his family's future to support Irene Gallo's right to be a blithering idiot.

Anonymous Man in Black July 09, 2015 10:42 AM  

"Mary Robinette Kowal has already publicly threatened to return the advances for her next two books and take them elsewhere if Ms Gallo is fired."

And what is that worth? The promise of a woman! You're very funny, princess.

Blogger VD July 09, 2015 10:43 AM  

So when I look at the sites you point out, such as file 770 George Martin's site I see what appears to be a larger group of commenters and a large number of blogs compared to the relatively few on the puppy side. This battle would appear to be one for numbers, no ?

Compare the traffic. This blog alone has 3x the traffic of the biggest blog on the other side. We're the ones with the numbers to overrun the Hugos; we will see the full extent of their numbers when the voting results are released. And we haven't even BEGUN to tap into our maximum potential.

Basically, they have a small number of unemployed people who do nothing but talk at each other all day. We have a lot more people who just pop in and read once or twice per day.

Blogger Steveo #238 July 09, 2015 10:50 AM  

Did I miss something, when did PHN get a scalzi award?

Blogger Steveo #238 July 09, 2015 10:52 AM  

OK, PNH

Blogger Sean July 09, 2015 10:54 AM  

Wouldn't it be interesting to see PNH go to another publisher and magically that publisher starts dominating the SJW side of the Hugo nominations? Of course that wouldn't prove anything though..,.

Blogger luagha July 09, 2015 11:00 AM  

Shades of James Frenkel.

We'll see if PNH becomes a 'floating freelance editor' working for all the major houses but not drawing a salary. But I think the days when that could happen are long gone. Baen, at least, is probably unlikely to take freelancers like that.

Blogger pdwalker July 09, 2015 11:01 AM  

Sweet.

Blogger Rabbi B July 09, 2015 11:04 AM  

Apparently for GRRM, Ms. Gallo's "apology" was sufficient:

George R.R. Martin (grrm) replied to a comment you left in a LiveJournal post. The comment they replied to was:

No one is asking Ms. Gallo to apologize for her comments, but for her unprofessional conduct as a current employee who, like it or not, represents Tor publishing.

Now, Ms. Gallo is most certainly entitled to her opinions, but as an employee who professionally represents Tor, she should have exercised some professional judgment before deciding to express and direct those views towards the customers and authors of Tor in a public venue. As a Jew and an ordained rabbi, I found her comments, insinuating that I am part of a group of "neo-Nazis," particularly repugnant and unacceptable.

I also work in a professional environment as the financial controller of a large engineering firm and I know, without a shadow of a doubt, that if I were to post similar comments in a public forum, comments which targeted and vilified our client base or otherwise put my company in a negative light, I would be sent packing and rightly so.

To date, Ms. Gallo, has only been "reminded" to be more careful to make sure people understand that it's her views she is expressing and not those of Tor. However, her position within Tor does not afford her this luxury.

So, I ask you, why should Tor ever have to clarify their views just because one of their employees refuses to demonstrate even a modicum of professionalism that one would expect from a reputable publishing company? As an associate publisher and creative director for a number of years within the organization, should she not have known better and have taken every precaution to avoid misrepresenting the organization which writes her paycheck?

If that means avoiding the temptation to express her views (especially expressions which cast aspersions upon your own customer base and authors) in a public forum, so be it. No one is asking her to apologize for her views or not to hold them, but simply to comport herself in a professional manner which does not eclipse the financial and business interests of Tor and by extension Macmillan with her own personal agenda.

Their reply was:

Subject: Re: No
She did apologize.

That should suffice.

Blogger Rabbi B July 09, 2015 11:07 AM  

Then there was this amusing little mind-numbing exchange:

lagopus_muta - LJ Comment

Their reply was:

Subject: Re: No

As a Jew and an ordained rabbi, I found her comments, insinuating that I am part of a group of "neo-Nazis," particularly repugnant and unacceptable.

So how exactly have Gallo insinuated that you're part of the group she calls "neo-Nazis"? What part of her comment makes you think she was attacking you - did she mention your name, or identify you in any other way?

Gallo's phrasing makes it clear she's talking about a few persons who organized the slates. The "neo-nazi" label clearly applies only to the Rabid Puppies. Neither Gallo nor anyone else is putting you in that group. If you want to join up, that's your choice - but don't come running afterwards and complain about what others say about the group you've chosen to join.

On the other hand, if you don't like being associated with the Rabid Puppies, and with the extreme political opinions of the Rabid Puppy organizer[*], then I suggest you stop associating yourself with him. That should be easy - it's mostly a matter of not defending him, and not signing up to fight his personal vendettas.

* And in case you're not aware of what kind of person you're clinging yourself up to, I kindly suggest you use google to educate yourself.

Blogger Daniel July 09, 2015 11:09 AM  

Crash. Look at the Castalia House blog today. The difference you are missing is that, unlike Republicans, "honor" isn't a weapon to be used against us.

Blogger darkdoc July 09, 2015 11:09 AM  

This crap has been aided and allowed by corporate America because of low cost credit/easy money allowing profits to remain up. SJW opinions will not be as tolerated when profitability is affected, and the FED is not there keeping executives in the C Suites fat and happy. Faucets of low cost money has made a lot possible that could disappear almost overnight.

It is coming before too much longer, and I expect the pendulum to swing differently. "Tolerance" may become a luxury that is no longer a corporate priority. Talk about feelbad for SJW's then.

Blogger Marissa July 09, 2015 11:10 AM  

She did apologize.

That should suffice.


Imagine if all the limp-wristed companies and their squawking followers responded like this to threats against employing people like Brendan Eich and the guy with the women on his shirt or Lawrence Summers. Martin understands this - you simply shut them down and don't listen to them or debate them. Leftists close ranks and stick to their own and they refuse to be "fair-minded" by treating their own the way they treat the Other. Fair-mindedness has got to be the dumbest trait of the right, especially because no enemy will be fair with you.

Blogger CarpeOro July 09, 2015 11:13 AM  

"Compare the traffic."

Yes, my first thought. Never heard of a hundred ants bothering an anteater. I think that the problem he is dealing with is the typical Republican problem of not understanding that they keep surrendering to a far less numerous group. SJWs are not numerous, they are simply loud. Because they also gravitate to government or government supported careers (can you say "performace art'?) instead of becoming productive members of society, they tend to have the free time available to make noise. Also, since they always lie, they are adept at spinning things to appear to support compromise with them rather than the outright rejection they deserve. Republicans keep falling for it and soon find that they have nothing left to defend because they have "compromised" everything away.

Blogger CarpeOro July 09, 2015 11:14 AM  

Oh, forgot to post vfm #105.

Blogger Ragin' Dave July 09, 2015 11:23 AM  

So let's say Tor fires Gallo, and PNH quits and takes some of the loonier members of the SJW with them. They all flounce off in a huff, leaving several positions wide open.

Where, exactly, does MacMillan lose on this?

Publishing is in trouble. Book sales of SciFi and Fantasy have been going down, partly because of competition but partly because the writing has flat-out sucked. Changing the guard at Tor gives them the opportunity to publish more people like John C Wright and less people who write were-seal porn and call it "Science Fiction".

If my highest selling author was John Scalzi, I'd want to clean house. Period. So having these people fire themselves makes it all the easier to do so!

All in all, where's the problem here? Fire Gallo, let the whining brigades flounce off, fire the people who are left, and get back to publishing books that people want to read!

Blogger Cataline Sergius July 09, 2015 11:30 AM  

Patrick Nielsen Hayden has threatened to take his Scalzi (and other writers) and go elsewhere.

Scalzi has got to just love that. Although he might be secure enough to say that he will back PNH's play. But when push comes to shove, a million bucks is lot of money to return. I don't see him doing it. He's not that principled.

Regardless. The real gorilla in that monkey house is a Mormon whose last name begins with a C. Loosing a bunch of high profile mid-listers would be a major nuisance but a tolerable one if you have a key employee who has had performance issues in the past and appears to be going rogue now.

But if said Mormon leaves, Tor would badly damaged.

So where does Card stand on this? Does anyone know.

Blogger Marissa July 09, 2015 11:32 AM  

Hah, at first I thought you were talking about Correia, #30. Cataline Sergius. I was like, I thought he worked for Baen?!

Blogger Jack Ward July 09, 2015 11:33 AM  

If McMillian does the right thing I think they will be surprised the surge of support, verbal and money that comes from these despicable puppies. And the support won't stop, either after few weeks.

Blogger Rabbi B July 09, 2015 11:34 AM  

@Ragin' Dave

You solution makes good common and business sense, which is a tall order of the highest magnitude for the business-savvy execs over at Tor.

If the powers-that-be had summarily fired Ms. Gallo from day one, the SJWs heads would be spinning and they wouldn't have had time to respond let alone act decisively before Tor was moving forward with someone else. Decisive action would have served to set a clear, no-nonsense tone at the top and EVERYONE would be better for it.

Apparently the feeeeelings of employees and others are more important than running a good business these days. In the real world, which the rest of us inhabit, most of us would have lost our jobs or have been severely reprimanded and the offense duly noted in our files.

Anonymous Nathan July 09, 2015 11:35 AM  

@Dave,

Losing Scalzi to whatever PNH's new "Anti-Castalia" might be called would hurt, but if he can take Card, Jordan's estate, Sanderson, or the media tie-ins with him, or fool Macmillian into thinking he can, he has some negotiating power, despite the sales decline. I do think Sarah Hoyt is right about people like PNH, and he'll fail upwards as a reward for "martyrdom".

Now, I do want to see him go, in part to get Kluwe, Feder, and Kowal to stop whispering into Sanderson's ear while he's writing. Words of Radiance was dissapointing, especially Kaladin's wangsty gammafication.

Blogger Alexander July 09, 2015 11:42 AM  

Ha! Scalzi leave Tor. Not a chance.

Scalzi has shut down to a bare minimum on this front. He says just enough to let the rabbits know he is still down with the goodthink... and not a word more. He is terrified of the warren turning on him and a Confederate-style retroactive banishment. But he's equally terrified of facing the puppies because he's one of the few rabbits with enough cognizance to appreciate the enemy is both dangerous and not inevitably the loser.

He was ready to hang PNH and Irene out to dry on day one if that's what it took to keep surviving. He sure as eggs isn't going to return a million, sacrifice another two million, for favors already done.

He'll hum and haww about how appreciative he is, but he'll spin it as MacMillan isn't Tor, his usual shtick about how it ain't personal, it's business, and how there are still great folks at Tor that he's not going to abandon.

And - to his credit - he appears to care about his wife and daughter. Sure, we can mock the idiotic gamma way he goes about showing it, but I suspect that even if the warren turned on him, he would put up with quite significant pressure before he considered surrendering 3 million in familial resources.

Blogger Alexander July 09, 2015 11:46 AM  

Especially when the road ahead is uncertain. He's a white male in a group that hates them. He's aware of the chimpouts or he wouldn't be openly SJW and still making sure to live nowhere near them. It's been hinted at that he's a gunowner.

Combine the uncertainty of the future of the country and the uncertainty of getting half as good a deal elsewhere, and that wraps it up - Scalzi stays at Tor - at least as long as he's got a guaranteed income stream from them.

Blogger MidKnight (#138) July 09, 2015 11:46 AM  

I'd be amazed if MRK followed through, but she sometimes shows a bit more principle than the typical liberal. (Though I don't think she's a happy person, based on comments I've seen re: the lady editor thing, her "Rabid Weasels of SF" comments, and her protagonists).

That said, if PNH actually made or implied such a threat, that leaves only two options to MacMillan.

I don't see PNH as so visionary or critical that they will be willing to put up with his shenanigans or the loose cannons that ride in with him, and effectively cede power to him in the process.

Blogger Cail Corishev July 09, 2015 11:54 AM  

I know practically nothing about the publishing business, but I would assume Scalzi's contract is with Tor, not with PNH, right? I can imagine a clause in a contract that says, "I can leave if my editor leaves." A big-shot author with a strong attachment to a particular editor might demand something like that. But would that be the case here?

Looking at this from a general business standpoint -- again, with no particular knowledge of this industry -- were I a MacMillan exec forced to deal with this mess, I'd be tempted to clean house entirely. If some individuals there had approached me with objections to the antics of the SJWs, I might keep those people around -- perhaps shifted into a different subsidiary -- but as for all those who kept quiet or tried to protect the troublemakers, a whole-house fumigation seems like the best policy. Assuming Tor makes enough money for MacMillan to keep it standing, of course.

Blogger MidKnight (#138) July 09, 2015 11:55 AM  

@Rabbi B
Gallo's phrasing makes it clear she's talking about a few persons who organized the slates. The "neo-nazi" label clearly applies only to the Rabid Puppies.


SJW's always project. In this case, they are accusing US of reading comprehension issues and inability to unpack/understand grammar.

@Jack.

They really think we don't read enough Tor books to hurt them by quitting. I've been told to my face we don't understand people read different books with different tastes and worldviews. Also the shock and disbelief earlier on when people were wondering what was wrong with Butcher/etc. if WE actually liked their work.

Anonymous MrGreenMan July 09, 2015 11:55 AM  

@MidKnight

I read a comment where MRK said she really wasn't a horribly shrill person and was such a nice person.

I read this after a stream of her comments where she was a horribly shrill and angry person and not nice at all.

I concluded she's a horrible, shrill, and angry person.

Anonymous Huckleberry (#87) -- est. 1977 July 09, 2015 11:57 AM  

PNH: Look, John, if this thing blows up and they shitcan Gallo, I need you to back my play.

SCALZI: Sure, buddy. What do you have in mind?

PNH: I'm going to beat that racist, sexist, homophobic dipshit at his own game.

SCALZI: I don't follow.

PNH: I'll start my own publishing house.

SCALZI: I don't understand.

PNH: I'll quit and rally the best Tor Books has to offer with me. Castalia House? Try Cystylya Shack. We'll ride outta here on a goddamn rainbow.

SCALZI: I don't get it.

PNH: (exasperated) DON'T GET WHAT, JOHN?!?

SCALZI: Why are you telling me this?

PNH: I need you, John. That racist, sexist, homophobic dipshit has John C. Wright. Well, I'm bringing my own John to this fight. Come with me.

SCALZI: But I have a contract, Pat.

PNH: (angry) FUCK YOUR CONTRACT, JOHN! THIS IS ABOUT SOCIAL JUSTICE! COME ON!

SCALZI: I'd love to help you, Pat, I really would. But my wife has already spent most of the money on combat boots and a home gym for the daughter.

PNH: Goddamnit. Really?

SCALZI: And lawn food. We've already put a down payment on the new irrigation system.

PNH: Damn it.

SCALZI: I don't understand...

[scene]

Anonymous dh July 09, 2015 11:58 AM  

I just have a hard time imagining this situation, but if it's the case, it explains why both of those two are hardly even posting at their own site anymore, and why they are essentially quiet all across their footprint.

Anonymous Minion #0172 July 09, 2015 12:01 PM  

Here's the only way to respond to an ultimatum:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQDnRs2b4R0

Blogger RobertT July 09, 2015 12:02 PM  

Scalzi's not going to get that deal anywhere else.

Blogger luagha July 09, 2015 12:03 PM  

Maybe Tor could do what the editors of 'Classic Peanuts' do now that Charles Schultz has passed away. Just endlessly package and repackage their best stuff from years and years ago.

Probably make more money doing it too. After all, no new rights to buy, and the older stuff still had story.

Anonymous JFields July 09, 2015 12:03 PM  

Cail: there is no mess, it's just now that VD knows he won't be scrutinized by the folks at file770, he can freely fling poo and see what sticks.

Blogger Rabbi B July 09, 2015 12:05 PM  

"In this case, they are accusing US of reading comprehension issues and inability to unpack/understand grammar."

Well, you and I are also uneducated. Something that can be remedied by Google.

I responded in part:

"Neither Gallo nor anyone else is putting you in that group."

Of course not. I am ALREADY in the group which she is mis-characterizing and libeling.

" . . . but don't come running afterwards and complain about what others say about the group you've chosen to join."

Why not? Where should I run when I am being mistreated? Why do you think organizations like the Anti-Defamation League and the ACLU et al exist? Why am I excluded from social justice?

"So how exactly have Gallo insinuated that you're part of the group she calls "neo-Nazis"?"

Let's review:

She didn't insinuate that I am part of the group, she insinuated that the group (of which I am already a part) is "neo-Nazi", "unrepentantly racist, misogynistic, and homophobic" thereby insinuating that I am all those things since I am someone who helps make up the group.

"There are two extreme right-wing to neo-nazi groups, called the Sad Puppies and Rabid Puppies respectively, that are calling for the end of social justice in science fiction and fantasy. They are unrepentantly racist, misogynist, and homophobic. (Irene Gallo).

1. I am part of the identified groups before she makes her remarks.

2. I am Jewish.

3. Here remarks are directed specifically (as you pointed out) to said group, of which I am already a part.

4. People make up groups, without people there is no group.

5. I am a person and part of said group.

6. She asserted that said group are "neo-Nazi" and "unrepentantly racist, misogynistic, and homophobic".

7. Since I am part of said group, she is at the very least insinuating that I am a "neo-Nazi" and that I am "unrepentantly racist, misogynistic, and homophobic". She has identified me.

8. She offers nothing, no evidence whatsoever to back up these assertions (and neither do you for that matter, other than your advice that I use Google to somehow support your claim that Ms. Gallo's claims are substantiated).

Perhaps now you can better appreciate my concern.

"On the other hand, if you don't like being associated with the Rabid Puppies, and with the extreme political opinions of the Rabid Puppy organizer[*], then I suggest you stop associating yourself with him."

Following your line of logic, should I as a Jew dissociate myself from the "Jewish group" when my people are persecuted, mistreated, and falsely accused? Should I stop associating with my people because somebody is spewing hatred towards them, a group that I am part of? Is that what you are suggesting? Is that what you should do when the group of which you are a part of is disparaged and mistreated?



Anonymous ler July 09, 2015 12:07 PM  

Isn't mrk a child molester?

Blogger VD July 09, 2015 12:08 PM  

Cail: there is no mess, it's just now that VD knows he won't be scrutinized by the folks at file770, he can freely fling poo and see what sticks.

Yeah, because migly and all the little SJWs that infest his place never read anything I post here.

Blogger VD July 09, 2015 12:09 PM  

Isn't mrk a child molester?

That's MZB.

Blogger RobertT July 09, 2015 12:10 PM  

I spent years in the Fortune 500 and I can tell you this with certainty. If one of their executives is threatening them with anything, his/her ass is grass. Either that or you'll have a banty rooster running the place from three levels down. Give in to blackmail and everyone will blackmail you.

Anonymous Jourdan July 09, 2015 12:12 PM  

I hope Vox is right, but I still don't think so.

The Left is the establishment in this country. They are the ones in power. They don't fire their soldiers, they fire ours.

The correlation of forces is still huge. They are the winners, we are losers on the fringe. (Objectively speaking by actual political standards; that we are men and correct and speaking the truth is a different matter entirely).

This is one of those things I would be very happy to be wrong about, but I don't think so. Last time out, Shimshon said it would be no later than July 7 that we saw action. That date has come and gone and he's out 10 Shekels.

Anyone else want to take me up on another 10 shekel bet with a new date? I'll even be generous and say August 8.

Blogger RobertT July 09, 2015 12:14 PM  

If that was my company, I wouldn't allow any escape clauses in contracts. If an author loves that editor that much, he'll sign the contract because this is where that editor is right now.

Anonymous zen0 July 09, 2015 12:14 PM  

47. Rabbi B

Let's review:.......


Tedious, isn't it? I admire your energy.


One of the saddest features of the postmodern world is the need to explain the blatantly obvious reality over and over again to a world grown allergic to reality.

John C. Wright

Blogger luagha July 09, 2015 12:15 PM  

Maybe Tor could do what the editors of 'Classic Peanuts' do now that Charles Schultz has passed away. Just endlessly package and repackage their best stuff from years and years ago.

Probably make more money doing it too. After all, no new rights to buy, and the older stuff still had story.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer July 09, 2015 12:26 PM  

@Rabbi B

You should disassociate yourself from Rabid Puppies because they have been declared unpersons by the warren.

Sheesh! It isn't like this stuff is hard.

Blogger RobertT July 09, 2015 12:29 PM  

People I fired got rehired in another department.

I didn't have this experience. But with HR poking their nose into every termination and every new hire these days, I think it would be very hard to rehire anyone fired for cause. Now another company, that's an entirely different issue. If a guy can bring a stable of writers, he'll get a new job.

Blogger RobertT July 09, 2015 12:30 PM  

People I fired got rehired in another department.

I didn't have this experience. But with HR poking their nose into every termination and every new hire these days, I think it would be very hard to rehire anyone fired for cause. Now another company, that's an entirely different issue. If a guy can bring a stable of writers, he'll get a new job.

Blogger RobertT July 09, 2015 12:30 PM  

If that was my company, I wouldn't allow any escape clauses in contracts. If an author loves that editor that much, he'll sign the contract because this is where that editor is right now.

Blogger RobertT July 09, 2015 12:30 PM  

I spent years in the Fortune 500 and I can tell you this with certainty. If one of their executives is threatening them with anything, his/her ass is grass. Either that or you'll have a banty rooster running the place from three levels down. Give in to blackmail and everyone will blackmail you.

Blogger RobertT July 09, 2015 12:30 PM  

Scalzi's not going to get that deal anywhere else.

Anonymous Jourdan July 09, 2015 12:30 PM  

Personal Note: I've been commenting a lot more than usual recently. It is my sincere hope this isn't annoying any of the comrades. I was in a bad accident on June 19th and after some time in the hospital am home on percocet and valium and can't move very much, so I've been thinking and writing, that's all. I'm fine, just bored.

I'm also seriously considering quitting my govt job and using my UK citizenship to relocate to a quiet corner of the Kingdom. If any Brits out there have any advice for me, I would appreciate hearing from you at my personal email address, which has recently changed. You can reach me at:

KevinV90638 at the google mail account's address template.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis July 09, 2015 12:35 PM  

Vox, are you going to have any posts on the happenings at reddit? It looks like some GGers were able to use reddits own bylaws to take control of the subreddits r/polygon and r/gawker. They are currently flooding the subreddits with every misdeed they ever committed. This is interesting because early on in GG the SJWs hijacked the Gamergate subreddit and it looks like some GGers have taken to heart that turnabout is fair play.

https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/3cgnso/i_just_got_control_of_rpolygon_now_it_is_a_forum/

Blogger Chris Scena July 09, 2015 12:45 PM  

Vox (or someone else more familiar with literary rights), correct me if I'm wrong, but Jordan's estate and Card's past books (the ones that still sell well) are not properties that PNH could take with him. He could only take new works, and even then, it would have to be properties that are not already controlled by Tor.

Blogger Nate July 09, 2015 12:51 PM  

"I'm also seriously considering quitting my govt job and using my UK citizenship to relocate to a quiet corner of the Kingdom."

out of the frying pan and into the fire... bad idea.

Blogger VD July 09, 2015 12:53 PM  

He could only take new works, and even then, it would have to be properties that are not already controlled by Tor.

He could only get new works from authors who don't owe any books or rights-of-first-refusal to Tor Books. It's a very empty threat that only an amateur who overvalues himself would make. But Tor Books is an amateurish operation, they don't even have a coherent organizational structure.

Part of why I expect Macmillan to clean up is for that reason. What happened should not have been able to happen in the first place. Of course, the Tor people have been trying to claim that they were not subject to the Macmillan Code of Conduct, but they don't realize that such a defense just creates new problems for the Tor executives.

Blogger Joshua Dyal July 09, 2015 12:58 PM  

out of the frying pan and into the fire... bad idea.

My thought too; what quiet part of the kingdom is left? The Caymans? I hear the expats are starting to wear out their welcome there too.

Anonymous Mike M. (minion #315) July 09, 2015 12:59 PM  

Were I running Tor, I'd be taking a close look at the stuff John C. Wright has published through Castalia House. I seem to recollect him saying that "Somewhither" was rejected "by his publisher".

Wright has already made a splash, but I honestly think he'll be a lot more prominent in the next decade. Losing him would be a very bad mistake...and it's one Tor is in the middle of making.

Anonymous Jourdan July 09, 2015 1:13 PM  

@Nate - I hear you man. And I generally agree. Here is my thought process, which is highly personal based on who i am and past experience in life:

1) A quiet corner = small town in Unionist N.I. or small town waaay up in Scotland
2) I would never have to see another fucking Latino in my life
3) It wouldn't be so damn hot all the time (from N.I., light skin, red hair, fair eyes, sun = bad)
4) As bad as it is on the news, the difference is it's not my country or my people, so while it still sucks, it doesn't *hurt* the way it does seeing it here.

Blogger W.LindsayWheeler July 09, 2015 1:16 PM  

Jourdan July 09, 2015 12:12 PM I hope Vox is right, but I still don't think so.

The Left is the establishment in this country. They are the ones in power. They don't fire their soldiers, they fire ours.


I mentioned this exact same thing earlier Jourdan. The Left don't eat their own. I agree with you. They are in control. I can't believe that anybody at Macmillan is a conservative. I can see a big mess, Tor Boycott by Rapid Puppies or Tor Boycott by SJW's?

If I was MacMillan, I would tell Irene "We've got a job over here at MacMillan's other subsidary. Move there. We will claim publicly that you have resigned and just move you to another position with same salary." That solves both problems.


Blogger Bateful Higot July 09, 2015 1:19 PM  

@Rabbi B

You need to understand that every Jew that associates with VD is simply a product of internalized anti-Semitism. We know this because a handful of ascended gentiles said so.

Blogger Marissa July 09, 2015 1:20 PM  

Jourdan, I hear Thurso is charming, I work with someone from there.

Thurso ...is the northernmost town on the British mainland.

Blogger Alexander July 09, 2015 1:24 PM  

Every popular front in the history of the world shows quite clearly that the left do eat their own.

Yeah, ok. So the left are the establishment. You know why they are? Because when the right was the establishment, they didn't go 'oh, well... we are the fringe, can't see us winning.' No, like good little collectivist termites they gnawed and gnawed one tiny bite at a time for decades and decades.

It's called a Long March for a reason.

If even half our nominal supporters who wrung his hands and bemoaned the fate foretold by numbers and current station actually did a little heavy lifting, we'd laugh at the very idea of the left having the influence of city dogcatcher, let alone our arts, our sports, our culture, over our children...

The boycott may very well fail. MacMillan might ignore Gallo, they might leave Tor alone, they might shift her to another subsidiary, they might sell twice the number of books thanks to a countercott.

But at the very least, we will know one tactic that didn't work. We will update our assumptions on the enemy's strengths and weaknesses and plan for the next round accordingly.

But you know what's absolutely guaranteed to keep Tor spewing shit? Closing your eyes and spreading your legs and resigned that it could never be any other way.

Blogger Dago July 09, 2015 1:26 PM  

Sigfader,
You got that exactly backwards. Morals change with time and place. Ethics are like physics for the human condition. Pretty much fixed.

Blogger Allan Davis July 09, 2015 1:27 PM  

Wheeler, I have to respectfully disagree. The Left *do* occasionally eat their own; look at Card, who was a card-carrying Democrat (pun intended) for decades before being excommunicated from the church of liberalism because his Mormon faith knocked him out of lockstep with the rest.

It seems to me that there's a combat tactic here...for some reason I'm reminded of the John Smith spider-critter in the Lost in Space movie...

-=ad=-

Blogger Cail Corishev July 09, 2015 1:37 PM  

The Left don't eat their own.

Are you kidding? The Soviets invented Photoshopping before the software even existed, because they kept needing to remove people from pictures after they went from who to whom. The Left eat their own for practice.

Blogger Rabbi B July 09, 2015 1:38 PM  


"Wright has already made a splash, but I honestly think he'll be a lot more prominent in the next decade. Losing him would be a very bad mistake...and it's one Tor is in the middle of making."

Speaking of the illustrious Mr. Wright, here is an amusing little gem that gives another instructive glimpse into the un-chartered, vast, and vacuous environs of the SJW mind:

travischesser
Jul. 8th, 2015 11:55 pm (UTC)
Thanks
Thanks for keeping us updated George. Since your original Hugo posts, I've followed both sides closely and visited all their sites and you are absolutely correct.

The outrage against Tor is ridiculous. Two apologies have been given. Where are any of their apologies? Isn't Wright technically an employee of Tor as one of their paid authors? He constantly horribly rails against homosexuals, liberals, atheists all while screaming "libel" any time someone dares mention his name. Isn't he also guilty of insulting Tor's customers? Hypocrisy is all it is. They demand retribution in the name of some perceived slight against their honor, yet gleefully rail against anyone who is different. Men who aren't "alphas", non-Christians, feminists, liberals, homosexuals, you name it, with some of the most sickening insults ever and we are supposed to be surprised that someone like Gallo snapped and called them out. Unprofessional, sure, but no worse than anything said by them. Vox is calling George a rapist on a weekly basis. She apologized and, as many predicted, it wasn't enough. If she were to be fired, they would go for something else.

Don't kid yourself - the rabids at least don't want more voices in the Hugos - they want only their own.

I'm glad you were able to enjoy some time away. Thanks for all you do. Buying Wild Cards and all the Tor I want.. Minus Wright's.

Link | Reply | Thread | Track This

Blogger Dago July 09, 2015 1:50 PM  

Jourdan and Wheeler have hit the pussification force field and got stuck in it.
Too bad. Don't bother to bury the corpses VFMs, just march inexorably on. We have rabbits to devour.

Anonymous McOxford July 09, 2015 1:51 PM  

@jourdan

I live in the blighted kingdom and I can't recommend it. Regards Scotland go past the Edinburgh/Glasgow line (and you'll want to) and you'll need to like being snowed in, power cuts etc for months at a time and then there's the natives . . . The Midlands are a good bet.

Anonymous zen0 July 09, 2015 1:51 PM  

Thanks for all you do. Buying Wild Cards and all the Tor I want.. Minus Wright's.


What would really be funny is if CEO John Sargent Jr. was a Catholic and a John C. Wright fan.

Really, really amusing.


FYI:
John Sargent Jr. is a children’s book author, having written One White Sail: A Caribbean Counting Book (1992) and By a Blazing Blue Sea (1999) under the pen name S. T. Garne (an anagram for Sargent).

Anonymous Jourdan July 09, 2015 1:52 PM  

@ Alexander

I agree with you. You misunderstand me. An objective analysis of the current correlation of forces and, thus, current likely outcomes is not the same as advocating helplessness in the face of the enemy.

On the contrary: I have been trying to organize men of the right for more than 8 years now. Even though it turns out that the vast majority of tough-talking rightists on the Internet won't so much as gather for a pint to discuss what can be done in our own community, I'm still at it.

And, no, I'm not invested in leading. You show me a real-world right-wing org that is fighting the good fight, intelligently, with a plan, with wit, with strategy, that isn't a money-raising personality cult or some outfit obsessed with nazism, and I'll join up and be a good soldier.

Anonymous Adoramus July 09, 2015 1:53 PM  

This calls for a "Hitler Finds Out ..." video

Anonymous Scintan July 09, 2015 1:54 PM  

Don't kid yourself - the rabids at least don't want more voices in the Hugos - they want only their own.

I'm glad you were able to enjoy some time away. Thanks for all you do. Buying Wild Cards and all the Tor I want.. Minus Wright's.


Let me guess. He doesn't see the inherent issue in what he wrote right there.

Anonymous Jourdan July 09, 2015 1:54 PM  

Cail, this isn't the Soviet Union.

Let me give you a real-world, modern U.S. example of what I mean: Name a humanities professor of liberal-to-left views forced from his/her professorship due to a political stance or statement?

Blogger Jim July 09, 2015 2:08 PM  

Name a humanities professor of liberal-to-left views forced from his/her professorship due to a political stance or statement?

That will be difficult as such professors always have ethical problems that can be used instead. See: Ward Churchill. If Bill Ayers ever became a problem for UIC, rest assured that they would suddenly and miraculously discover that being involved in bombing plots is grounds for dismissal.

Blogger Torial (#170) July 09, 2015 2:08 PM  

#7 - This is the trap Denethor fell into when he looked into the Palantir but saw what Sauron wanted him to see. Do not despair from such reports.

#81 - These are the ones that come to mind:
Conservative Review: https://www.conservativereview.com/
Personhood USA: http://www.personhood.com/
Gun Owners of America: http://www.gunowners.org/

Anonymous Asatru Heathen July 09, 2015 2:09 PM  

Re the UK:

Nowhere is perfect, of course, and the UK has it's share of problems. However, having lived in both North America and the UK, I feel the UK is set to weather the coming storm much better than most of the rest of the world. Assuming you can genuinely become part of the community (ethnically, morally and emotionally compatible), you could do much, much worse than Wales, Scotland, or Northern England.

Anonymous Scintan July 09, 2015 2:10 PM  

Don't kid yourself - the rabids at least don't want more voices in the Hugos - they want only their own.

I'm glad you were able to enjoy some time away. Thanks for all you do. Buying Wild Cards and all the Tor I want.. Minus Wright's.


And the poster didn't see the issue with these last lines?

Blogger Alexander July 09, 2015 2:12 PM  

Vox is calling George a rapist on a weekly basis.

A lie. He is a rape fetishist, but nobody has said GRapeRapeMartine is actually raping anyone himself (unlike a number of other authors the SJWs have lauded in the past). Whether this is because his rape fetish stops where fantasy becomes reality, or because the truth is that there's no victim GRRM could physically catch if they weren't willing... well, who can say.

Blogger Bodichi (0031) July 09, 2015 2:19 PM  

@Huckleberry

That was outstanding! Keep it up!

Blogger Danby July 09, 2015 2:20 PM  

@zen0,
I can't find anything on Sargeant himself, but his father, former ceo and chariman of Doubleday, was an old-line old-money Massachusetts patriarch, member of St. Bart's Episcopal in NYC. Which usually means the son would either no longer call himself a Christian, or is of the Nice Jesus pro-gay, feminist style.

Blogger Jim July 09, 2015 2:21 PM  

He is a rape fetishist, but nobody has said GRapeRapeMartine is actually raping anyone himself

Even if someone claimed it, it would be an obvious spoof. With that girth he'd need a willing partner to help with the maneuvering in his southern hemisphere. Rape simply isn't an option. Hence the monetary transaction.

Note: I speak only for myself, not for any other Puppy or Puppy organization. I also wish to apologize for any offense given.

Blogger Alexander July 09, 2015 2:26 PM  

Scalzi reliably informs us that it is okay to satirize rape, so that's fair.

Blogger Cail Corishev July 09, 2015 2:29 PM  

Cail, this isn't the Soviet Union.

Sigh. The statement was "The Left don't eat their own." If you want to move the goalposts all the way over from "The Left" to "humanities professors in the modern USA," fine. Never mind that you picked a group with tenure, so they're less likely to be purged than anyone else. Never mind that I never said all internal purges are announced in the mainstream media where we'd hear about them. The Soviets often didn't announce them either; they just deleted people from pictures and records.

Even so: if you think no leftist humanities professor has ever taken a serious hit to his career because his fellow leftists decided to turn on him for whatever reason, then you're a fool.

Blogger Marissa July 09, 2015 2:31 PM  

Cail, I should have expanded. The Left don't eat their own at the prodding of their enemies. They eat their own when there's something to gain from it, like party members moving up in the ranks. Amy Schumer, good little liberal Jewish feminist, is being reamed about making a racist joke. It's not due to the right's criticism of her unfunny, ugly shtick, but because a few journalists and chatterers can make a name for themselves using her as a target.

Anonymous zen0 July 09, 2015 2:35 PM  

90. Danby

>Which usually means the son would either no longer call himself a Christian, or is of the Nice Jesus pro-gay, feminist style.

Most likely. He is heavy into childrens charity, too.

Here is where I got the info: Five things about Macmillan CEO John Sargent

Anonymous BGS July 09, 2015 2:41 PM  

Seriously doesn't he know not to make threats like this without an offer lined up. I wouldn't even openly publicly advertise bad thoughts about a hospital that let nurses get raped in the parking facilities, like Johns Hopkins, without another job lined up. In fact if there is a nice cushy position open and if you are too competent for them to let you transfer quitting and applying to the other job might be the only way to get it.

Go to my Twitter account, search through it, and see who has commented on my tweets.

Now is the time to tweet things to vox to make leftists heads explode.

This blog alone has 3x the traffic of the biggest blog on the other side.

To be fair some of that is rabbits coming from enemy sites so they can clutch their pearls and tell others about the badthoughts here.

Scalzi... It's been hinted at that he's a gunowner. Perhaps it is his wife that owns a glock?

My thought too; what quiet part of the kingdom is left? Are the Falklands an option? I know the IRA has been driving moslems out of Ireland.

You show me a real-world right-wing org that is fighting the good fight, intelligently, with a plan

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/ are the people that destroyed the narrative of Trayboon Skittles, thru Gentle " Asian liquor store clerk beatdown" Mike. I found them during Trayboon Skittles where they organized the information and they just keep blasting away at every hoax since. In fact here is the latest inconvenient truth they published.http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2015/07/09/report-san-francisco-progressive-sheriff-intentionally-sought-illegal-alien-murderer-to-protect-him-from-deportation/
What about the group that was arrested for saying moslems rape little girls before the cops admitted they ignored it?

Blogger Danby July 09, 2015 2:46 PM  

Most likely. He is heavy into children's charity, too.

Which is great. Notice that the charity is assertively "non-sectarian", which is a word used mostly by Episcopalians.

Blogger Cail Corishev July 09, 2015 2:53 PM  

The Left don't eat their own at the prodding of their enemies.

True. If anything, our insistence that they apply their own dictates against one of their own will cause them to dig in their heels and refuse, no matter how much it hurts them.

It's even possible that someone might think to use that knee-jerk reaction against them.

Anonymous Jourdan July 09, 2015 3:17 PM  

Cail - I concede the point, you are correct, I was wrong. I over-stated my case.

Perhaps a better statement getting across what I meant was that in the current political environment in the U.S., while it is very easy for the Left to get an ordinary person or a Rightist fired for political conduct, they have no strong incentive to allow members of those same hated groups to force the firing of their own.

Anonymous RedJack #22 July 09, 2015 3:19 PM  

Jourdan,

My bride is in a government position. The left not only eats their own, they do it on a regular basis. Get out of step with the new hate, and you are done. The Confederate Flag in Hillary's past is causing some to get the vapors now. You don't see it in the MSM, but it happens.

And this is a long march. The Hugo's, Tor, and a few other things I am involved in are small ripples. But each is starting to make more people throw pebbles in. Christendom didn't die in a day, and it won't be rebuilt in a lifetime.

Anonymous RedJack #22 July 09, 2015 3:20 PM  

Perhaps it is his wife that owns a glock?
She seems a bit to manly for that.

Blogger ray July 09, 2015 3:24 PM  

Here's hoping that Mary Robinette Kowal and Patrick Nielsen Hayden and all the rest of the pretentious nobodies with three names return all the ill-gotten monies they've accumulated from their PC 'literature' and hey, while they're at it, perhaps they could jump off a cliff as well? Together. Singing 'We Shall Overcome' in harmony if possible? Talk about doing the world a real Social Justice favor.

The hypocritical posturing of these scumbag bullies is beyond belief. How about if Mammy Mary gives up 'writing' completely as part of her protest at the expression of truth, truths that she and her Group rabidly hate? Just returning advances shows lack of commitment to The (self)Righteous Cause.

Anonymous Jourdan July 09, 2015 3:27 PM  

@BGS -

I know the IRA has been driving moslems out of Ireland.

And it's not just the Republicans who do this. In fact, I heard a great story along these lines from a cousin of mine who is a Unionist and lives in Londonderry. Here goes:

Local girl in neighborhood who is overweight and unfortunately quite ugly marries immigrant who works in one of the few kabob shops in the Province. She converts. She's in Tesco shopping, with a hijab on. Not a burkha or anything real hardcore, just a hijab.

She's pushing her cart down the frozen food aisle with her child in the cart. My cousin is looking for a pork loin a few feet away.

Suddenly, three burly guys come out of the other aisles and into the frozen foods section and surround woman. My cousin recognizes the oldest as a former UVF man, said to have retired from sectarian matters. The three men pay my cousin not the slightest attention.

Oldest former UVF man says to woman: (note: I'm quoting from my cousins paraphrased memory) , take that stupid fucking thing off your head, right now. Your a woman from Ulster, not some middle eastern cow.

Woman: (Shocked) What? What, who the fuck do you think you...

Man: Stop it right there. I'm only going to tell you this one more time, take that stupid fucking Muslim shit off your head right now and act like an Irish woman or I swear to God I'll beat it off ya.

Woman: takes off hijab.

Other man; You want to be a Muslim, fuck off to the Middle East. We see you with that again and there's going to be trouble, both for you and that shit you call a husband. And that kid of yours better go to a proper school.

And they left.

Blogger ray July 09, 2015 3:35 PM  

lol Huckleberry. He sure ain't no Hucklebuck!

Anonymous Shut up rabbit July 09, 2015 3:41 PM  

. . The Midlands are a good bet.
If you like kiddy-fiddling & burqas

OpenID crash July 09, 2015 3:54 PM  

@Vox Day
Thank you for your response, I took the time to check and found if anything you are giving yourself too little praise. Most of the other sites don't even rate graphs on the web analytics sites.

It looks like it is to be the rematch of the Silent Majority vs the Nattering Nabobs of Negativism again. Well I have over 5k books, a good number of them are Tor publications. I'll gather what I have up and express my regret with their current editorial policies and my hope that some time in the future I can resume purchasing their product.

@The people who feel that honor is somehow crippling the Republican party. No. By and large Republican politicians enjoy the same honor deficit Democrat politicians do. The conservative rank and file hasn't been able to find ways to punish them for it. Maybe that will change (yes i am an insane optimist)

Blogger Dexter July 09, 2015 4:03 PM  

For those who want to stand up to the bullies and rabids and their Tor boycott, please note that SONGS OF THE DYING EARTH was published by Tor. (They were also Jack Vance's publisher for most of the last few decades).

Many used copies are available for $3 or less on Amazon, for those who don't want to support Tor!

Blogger Rabbi B July 09, 2015 4:21 PM  

I was just officially dubbed a Rabid Rabbi!

YES!! FINALLY!!

Has a nice ring to it . . .

O YEAH . . . BE AFRAID, BE VERY AFRAID

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/dd/ac/33/ddac3302616fe53d53a2df54efb83591.jpg




Blogger W.LindsayWheeler July 09, 2015 4:22 PM  

I said, "The Left doesn't eat its own".

The Soviet purges was about Stalin getting rid of threats to his power. Or those not sufficiently doctrinaire. Hitler purged his own SA.

Jourdan puts up a good point, no liberal professor loses his job.

When I meant, "The Left doesn't eat its own" was towards having a common morality with Conservatives/Rightists. The Left has no morality. It is beholden to none. Conservatives will respond to charges but the Left will not. When the Left hates the other side with so much hate, it will not listen to the other side. Irene Gallo's comments is candy in the ears of fellow travellers. Many on the Left don't see Gallo's comments as wrong. They don't see it. What Ms. Gallo has expressed IS the common sentiment of all people on the Left. And you think they are going to punish her?

Hey, Ms. Gallo overstepped the boundaries of her employers policy of conduct. She should lose her job and I'll work for that. But Jourdan and myself are only expressing what we see the outcome as. That nobody at Tor Books has fired Gallo now has spoken volumes. That they have to wait for the parent company to do something? Seems strange to me. Did Ms. Gallo work for Tor Books or for Macmillan? Who hired her? MacMillan? Maybe I don't understand corporate workings even thought Tor Books is a subsidary of MacMillan, I can't see how the Parent company can fire someone of a subsidary company.

Anonymous Scintan July 09, 2015 4:28 PM  

If the boycott is doomed to failure, why do the SJWs (yes, that means you, too, Rape Ape) feel the need to form a buycott to counter it?

SJW Logic - gotta love it

Blogger luagha July 09, 2015 4:33 PM  

Jourdan, I like the story with the woman taking off the hijab.

Although I honestly, from the lead-in, thought it was going somewhere else - the obvious rejoinder being their seeing her unclad face and...

"Oh. Oh, sorry. Put the hijab back on."

Blogger luagha July 09, 2015 4:35 PM  

"I can't see how the Parent company can fire someone of a subsidary company."

If the parent company owns you, as in the term 'wholly-owned subsidiary', they own you. The 'CEO' of the subsidiary is just a middle manager getting orders from someone at the parent company, no matter how much control at the subsidiary he seems to have.

Blogger Rabbi B July 09, 2015 4:43 PM  

"If the parent company owns you, as in the term 'wholly-owned subsidiary', they own you. The 'CEO' of the subsidiary is just a middle manager getting orders from someone at the parent company, no matter how much control at the subsidiary he seems to have."

This is correct. The company I work for is a wholly owned subsidiary that answers to the parent company and we are actually considered employees of the parent company, though we currently operate as an SBU.

Blogger Rabbi B July 09, 2015 4:43 PM  

""I can't see how the Parent company can fire someone of a subsidary company."'

They (the parent company) could have my manager can me.

Blogger John Wright July 09, 2015 4:56 PM  

"I hope Vox is right, but I still don't think so. The Left is the establishment in this country. They are the ones in power. They don't fire their soldiers, they fire ours."

This is why Christianity is more fun than any of the other options: when confronted by overwhelming forces, Leonidas and the 300 Spartans stand and die like heroes. But when the King of Syria compassed the city about with horses and chariots, the servant of Elisha the prophet cried out "Alas, my master! how shall we do?"

Elisha answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.

And Elisha prayed, and said, Lord, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

My point is that, even those who do not believe in God should believe that this is not a physical war but a psychological one (or, to use precise terminology, a spiritual one) -- as we saw when the Berlin Wall fell, physical numbers and strength mean little when one lacks the moral courage to use them, to persist, to win.

The rot that eats the tree is not stronger than the tree, and the barbarians who entered Rome were not stronger than Rome. Rot is what sets in once strength departs. Barbarians enter once the police leave. They do not outfight nor overwhelm the police.

Anonymous Scintan July 09, 2015 5:02 PM  

The rot that eats the tree is not stronger than the tree, and the barbarians who entered Rome were not stronger than Rome. Rot is what sets in once strength departs. Barbarians enter once the police leave. They do not outfight nor overwhelm the police.

Unfortunately, John, most of the Christian 'police' in the U.S. stopped patrolling their beats long ago, and are now a part of the barbarian hordes.

Blogger Marissa July 09, 2015 5:24 PM  

Jourdan, that story brings a tear to my eye. I can't for the life of me imagine that happening in the U.S., except perhaps in a very rural town.

Anonymous GreyS July 09, 2015 5:28 PM  

Well said on #35/6 Alexander. No way Scalzi leaves. He is a p.r. guy, an ad man, a self-promoter more than he is a writer. He knows the place he holds at Tor will be difficult to replicate elsewhere and knows it would be a big mistake to jump ship just when he is getting into tv. He's done a decent job at exploiting what talent he has and is smart enough to string it along as best he can. He will play the public face game but in the end he is one thought ahead of PNH on this.

Anonymous Fran July 09, 2015 5:53 PM  

If Scalzi does not take up the SJW gauntlet so he can hold his profits, his minions ill certainly turn on him.
Oh how he must really hate VD right now.

Anonymous Beau July 09, 2015 5:55 PM  

I was just officially dubbed a Rabid Rabbi!

Congratulations!

"Jesus I know, and Paul I know about... and, uh-oh, this guy is on my radar too."

Anonymous Bz July 09, 2015 6:02 PM  

Jourdan, that was a heartening story.

Anonymous GreyS July 09, 2015 6:16 PM  

If McMillian does the right thing I think they will be surprised the surge of support, verbal and money that comes from these despicable puppies. And the support won't stop, either after few weeks.

Not if "the right thing" is merely to fire Gallo. I'm not buying from Tor until the culture is changed. Once that happens, they will get a part of my book budget when an intriguing title deserves it. Until then-- shutdown mode. I shop Amazon every single day and buy books 4 or 5 times a week. I almost never checked who the publisher was before buying-- now I do it every time.

Everybody makes their choices- companies, readers, authors. I don't hate them, just making a reader/buyer decision. They can keep or fire whomever they wish. What bothers me is not Gallo's insults and unprofessional behavior, but the culture which produces such behavior. She is clearly not a rogue employee by Tor's internal standards. The question is-- Does Macmillan consider her a rogue employee or are they cool with the way Tor is run?

Anonymous Bz July 09, 2015 6:18 PM  

I wonder if PNH sees himself as the replacement of Doherty, and this is his moment? (Probably desperate moment.) Ah, office politics.

If PNH is issuing ultimatums, I think he's gambling, and probably on his way out, fpr the reasons mentioned before. Simply put, he will be office poison. And if he's raised the stakes that way, it seems likely Gallo and Feder will share his fate, whether they want to or not.

Any Tor authors here who have gotten calls from Tor? That way we might see if Tor thinks PNH is trying to leave with a stable of writers. Which authors are edited by PNH?

Blogger Chiva July 09, 2015 6:18 PM  

"I was just officially dubbed a Rabid Rabbi!"

The Rabid Rabbi....has a nice ring to it. Congratulations.

Anonymous Jourdan July 09, 2015 6:19 PM  

Northern Ireland may not be the most pleasant place on earth, but there is something to be said about a culture that has been based on saying "NO!" for centuries.

Anonymous Bz July 09, 2015 6:33 PM  

From the managerial standpoint, Tor/MacMillan should have acted decisively when this began. Doherty had a good start but got taken for a ride by Gallo and her non-apology, willingly or not. Never trust a SJW.

Actually, Doherty's fundamental error was in not caring to set the company culture himself. His senior managers are apparently running wild and have no idea how to behave in a professional manner. He should have shown them, in essence by a statement like this: "This was unacceptable, Tor is sincerely sorry and apologize to our customers, Gallo will be taking an extended vacation to reflect on her actions, and I and my employees personally guarantee it won't happen again". Make sure a copy lands on every desk.

Anonymous kfg July 09, 2015 6:40 PM  

"Barbarians enter once the police leave."

Not infrequently, despite the historical record of such practices, as the replacements for the native police.

Blogger CM July 09, 2015 7:11 PM  

@Scintan
Unfortunately, John, most of the Christian 'police' in the U.S. stopped patrolling their beats long ago, and are now a part of the barbarian hordes.

In a country as comfy for Christians as the US has historically been, it only makes sense that chaff would get mixed in with the wheat.

I wouldn't be completely dismayed that there exists poor representatives of Christ. There are still those in this mess who live productive Christian lives.

Anonymous rws July 09, 2015 7:47 PM  

Jourdan: If you want British culture without the yobs, an exceptional climate and a modern first world (mostly white) safe environment, there is such a place.

Victoria, British Columbia.

Shhhh. Don't tell anybody.

Anonymous Vox calls me RC July 09, 2015 8:11 PM  

Changing the subject slightly from Tor to SF editors in general, I've just gotten a peek into the process of producing SF these days and I think I can say why the science is often error-ridden:

The editors simply don't care.  They don't bother to give feedback to the authors, because it doesn't matter to them.  They certainly don't bother to hire subject-matter experts.

And that is why an educated layman like me, whose formal education ended 3 and a half decades ago, can dissect large tumorous masses of scientific howlers from the bodies of "science fiction" works co-authored by major names (OSC, I'm looking at you here).

On the other hand, I'm happy to say that I might just have wound up in the right place to help there be less of it.

Anonymous Jourdan July 09, 2015 8:36 PM  

@rws

Oh, I love Victoria dearly. My first trip out of California as a boy was to Victoria with my Quebecoises grandparents, and we even stayed at the Empress. It was an absolutely magical place. It was actually more British than the Britain I ended up seeing for the first time just a year later.

After a few days, we took the ferry to Vancouver, where I saw my first ever NHL game, the birth of my Canucks fandom.

There is no doubt I would consider it but for the sad fact that I am not Canadian and I'm too old for an Immigrant Visa to go there. However, Vancouver Island is on the short list of places "Jourdan will retire to if he stays the course with this job through retirement age".

Blogger Sir Wilshire (#320) July 09, 2015 9:49 PM  

"I was just officially dubbed a Rabid Rabbi!"

Rabbi B, the consternation you were obviously causing him was hilarious. He couldn't keep it from coming out in his comment. Of course, he also demonstrates his SJW'ness by obfuscating about what apologizing really is and implying he knows how a Rabbi should "behave" in the Puppies situation.

Anonymous BGS July 09, 2015 9:53 PM  

"I was just officially dubbed a Rabid Rabbi!" The Rabid Rabbi....has a nice ring to it. Congratulations.

"If you where a bacon eating GRINDR Rabi with a pallet of Doritos, GRRM wouldn't have banned you my love."

I couldn't find the Rabid Rabbi comment but this did stick out:
"To my eye, however, the majority of them have proved that this is mostly about "sticking it to the SJWs" rather than promoting work that they like. They want to tear down rather than build up; the Tor boycott is proof of that. " GRapeRapeM. Dam that fat whoremongering bastard is behind the Wild Cards books, my one ex had all of them.

They would much rather you where the bacon eating Grindr Rabi http://www.shalomlife.com/business/28106/grindr-rabbi-connecting-lgbt-jews-across-new-york/ He could be your arch nemesis.

Blogger Rabbi B July 09, 2015 10:18 PM  

@BGS

The the exchange is still there . . . near the beginning . . . you need to expand the comments.

Here's the latest . . . where I was unceremoniously knighted "Rabid Rabbi" . . . quite moving, actually:

grrm
Jul. 9th, 2015 07:27 pm (UTC)
Re: No

I would think, as a Jew, you would be very incensed at being called a neo-Nazi, of course.

Though it was only the Rabid Puppies who were referred to by that term. Are you a Rabid Puppy? The idea of a Rabid Rabbi boggles my mind somewhat. As a man of god, should you not be urging peace and understanding and acceptance, turning the other cheek, etc?

I would think that, being not only a Jew but a Rabbi, you would be in the forefront of those condemning Beale and his hatespeech. You should be demanding apologies from HIM, not from Tor.

At any rate, though I have no special insider knowledge, I believe I know the folks at Tor well enough to safely say that the Rabids have gotten all the apologies they are ever going to get from Irene, Moshe, Tom, and the Nielsen-Haydens. These are men and women of courage and conviction, and they are not going to submit to internet bullying and threats.

The letters and emails being sent to Macmillan on this issue do not deserve the dignity of a reply, and I doubt seriously that they will get any.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Turn the other cheek he advises . . . he forgets who he is talking to . . . midah k'neged midah . . . is more apropos.

VFM #0150 Slayer of Six-toed Uncircumcised Dorito-Eating Philistines, a.k.a. The Rabid Rabbi . . . at your service!

We're all having WAY too much fun . . .

Anonymous VFM #0158 July 09, 2015 10:47 PM  

+1 on GreyS's comment 123 - I am also gravely concerned by the absolutely toxic corporate culture at Tor Books. The stories Sarah Hoyt tells about having to live and work in the midst of such poison are heartbreaking.

@ Rabbi B - I suppose fascist cyberbullying bigots could be described as "men and women of courage and conviction" - by other bigots.

Anonymous zen0 July 09, 2015 11:06 PM  

132. Jourdan

However, Vancouver Island is on the short list of places "Jourdan will retire to if he stays the course with this job through retirement age".

How are you too old? I don't get it. You just described where I live. For now, it is paradise on Earth. You really should give it a little more effort. You will not regret it.

we need somebody like you here.
I'll do a pint with you.

Anonymous Jack Amok July 09, 2015 11:40 PM  

I wonder if PNH sees himself as the replacement of Doherty, and this is his moment? (Probably desperate moment.) Ah, office politics.

If PNH is issuing ultimatums, I think he's gambling, and probably on his way out, fpr the reasons mentioned before.


Perhaps he thinks he is the Heir Presumptive and Tor has no one else to take Doherty's place on short notice, which would leave Tor without a chief (Doherty being, PNH might assume, not long for his post)
.
Ah, brings to mind one of the few things de Gaulle ever got right. The graveyards are full of Indepensable Men... or whatever it is PNH qualifies as.

Anonymous Bz July 10, 2015 12:51 AM  

I was thinking of that very quote for some reason. Heh.

Anonymous GreyS July 10, 2015 1:35 AM  

Victoria, British Columbia

What a wonderful place. When we were there I walked and walked-- so nice. Vancouver Island is a paradise.

Anonymous Jack Amok July 10, 2015 2:26 AM  

Vancouver Island is a paradise.

Shhhhhhhh. The whole PNW is. One of the few places on earth where there were sedentary hunter-gatherers.

Blogger epobirs July 10, 2015 3:34 AM  

Macmillan probably won't do anything because they don't expect to employ but a small fraction of Tor's head count much longer. The numbers I'm seeing for SF/F publishing are simply horrible if you're a Big Five operation. Outside of dedicated bookstores the presence of mainstream (not YA. not paranormal romance, or other hybrids where the SF/F is the weaker partner) SF/F is simply not there. Last night I looked int he book department of a Walmart Supercenter and the closest thing to an adult SF novel out of several hundred titles was 'Jurassic Park, which was not published as SF. Crichton was a big believer in the SF ghetto and may now be vindicated.

Anonymous Shut up rabbit July 10, 2015 7:10 AM  

The Great Rape Ape sums up the SJW mentality perfectly:

"I know how you should behave since I have decided what your denomination means to me.

They have a whole alternative reality in their heads where everything is as they have been told it is and sensory reality be damned! No wonder they have no morals or principles, nothing can remain fixed when you make up reality to fit your feelings on an act by act basis.

Maybe if you have to change the meaning of someone's job, change the interpretation of what someone said, reinterpret others peoples' reactions and ignore the consequences to maintain your narrative - Occam's razor says maybe you are WRONG.

Blogger VFM bot #188 July 10, 2015 8:50 AM  

Jourdan walked back his observation that "the Left don't eat their own" a little too far. It's true that the Left eats its own in many circumstances: The early Soviets murdered a non-trivial percentage of the original Bolshevik revolutionaries (including stars like Trotsky). More recent eating examples include the defenestration of Lawrence Summers at Harvard and Sen. Bob Packwood from his perch in Oregon.

With all that said, Jourdan would have been more accurate if he had modified his original observation to "The Left doesn't eat its own who are attacked by the non-Left." No matter how egregious the acts of an SJW might be, upon attack by non-SJW forces the Left closes ranks and locks shields.

Examples: Murderers such as Bill Ayres and Mumia Abu-Jamal; rapists such as Bill Clinton and the favored minorities in Rotherdam; myriad dictator-killers such as Ho Chi Minh, Mao, Fidel Castro, and Lenin.

Blogger Joshua Dyal July 10, 2015 9:48 AM  

At any rate, though I have no special insider knowledge, I believe I know the folks at Tor well enough to safely say that the Rabids have gotten all the apologies they are ever going to get from Irene, Moshe, Tom, and the Nielsen-Haydens. These are men and women of courage and conviction, and they are not going to submit to internet bullying and threats.

Say what you will about moronic pop star Ariana Grande; at least with her second released apology, she got it in a way that Irene Gallo does not. Nobody takes seriously an insincere, dishonest, non-apology that's more about you than about those you are apologizing to.

Unlike Gallo, she realized that her future revenue stream was at risk. Or, to be slightly less cynical, she came to a realization of what a complete and total idiot she had been, and the fear of facing the consequences of her idiocy actually penetrated her head.

Anonymous Statists are so dull July 10, 2015 9:53 AM  

Rotherham !

The first revelation of systematic pedophile abuse of >1,400 white girls by asian Muslims with the full knowledge of the social services and police and ignored to avoid accusations of racism was in Rotherham, UK.

This government approved cultural enrichment is occurring elsewhere in UK (eg. Rochdale, Derby, Oxford, Bristol, Telford, Peterborough) and throughout Europe but the initial example was in Rotherham.

Anonymous Frank B Luke July 10, 2015 10:16 AM  

I absolutely love it when someone who admits to being a "lapsed Catholic" and "atheist or agnostic"-that is someone who hasn't studied and tried to live the Christian life for decades-tries to tell me what my reactions should be as a Christian. It's richer that he used "turn the other cheek" on a Jew!

The same Jesus who said turn the other cheek upended tables in the Temple.

The same Jesus who said turn the other cheek also told his disciples to sell their cloaks and buy swords because it was a dangerous world out there.

They think they can destroy everything I hold dear and truly and honestly expect me to let them. No. At first I was sad. Then I became rabid.

Anonymous BGS July 10, 2015 11:19 AM  

systematic pedophile abuse of >1,400 white girls by asian Muslims with the full knowledge of the social services and police

That's the true face of PC where the cops make sure they don't arrest minorities disparately. Keep in mind when the US says Asian they mean the Asians that can create/sustain civilization, in the UK they use it for sand n1ggers also. San Francisco cops also don't bother investigating any crime less than murder where all involved are victim categories such as black on Asian/ gay attacks.

Blogger JaimeInTexas July 10, 2015 11:48 AM  

Turn the other cheek is a personal affront issue.

The folks at issue in Tor are servants/stewards for their employer/company.


The SJW has been merciless with those not cow towing to their demands.

Matthew 18
32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. 35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”


The SJW are obviously not investing wisely their master's investments.

Matthew 25: 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Anonymous freddie_mac1 July 10, 2015 9:33 PM  

PNH threatening to go to another publisher ...

Would any SF publisher be stupid enough to take someone with such a publicly toxic reputation? I think he's significantly overestimating his importance, both to Tor and the SF publishing community as a whole.

Blogger Thucydides July 10, 2015 9:42 PM  

Curious as to who the Torlings believe will hire them if/when they are let go. Maybe they will have to get together and start the SJW House publishing concern, and take "their" stable of authors with them.

"If you were a fired publisher, my love" will be their killer first novel out the door....

Anonymous kfg July 10, 2015 10:18 PM  

" . . . cow towing . . ."

Protip: Put it in a trailer first. Don't ask me how I know.

Blogger John Wright July 11, 2015 12:05 AM  

@ kfg "Not infrequently, despite the historical record of such practices, as the replacements for the native police."

Bingo! Strange how one can always tell the difference, usually in a paragraph or two, between folk who know the lessons of history, and folk who do not.

Blogger John Wright July 11, 2015 12:05 AM  

Meaning I agree with kfg entirely.

Blogger JaimeInTexas July 11, 2015 10:21 AM  

I know it is kowtowing
I initially misspelled with a c but decided just to put a space after the w.
Think about it. Whale towing does not have the same ring to it.
:)

Blogger VFM bot #188 July 11, 2015 11:00 AM  

It's kind of like "towing the line". Now things have gotten even tougher..."towing cows". Jeepers creepers! What's next?

Oh. Already suggested: "Whale towing"....

Blogger VFM bot #188 July 11, 2015 11:06 AM  

It's kind of like "towing the line". Now things have gotten even tougher..."towing cows". Jeepers creepers! What's next?

Oh. Already suggested: "Whale towing"....

Blogger Jordan179 July 11, 2015 11:24 AM  

I'm guessing GRRM is getting worried. The amazing thing is that GRRM is actually a GOOD writer, and he's damaging his relationship with a lot of fandom by taking the flak for the hacks. He must imagine he's doing something good.

Blogger papabear July 11, 2015 12:04 PM  

Didn't know GRRM made appearances on TV https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zuaqKdA7VjA.

Anonymous kfg July 11, 2015 1:39 PM  

"I know it is kowtowing"

I figured you did, I just have a hard time resisting a straight line.

"It's kind of like "towing the line". "

I've towed lines. I've towed sharks, and even toed them, but I've never towed or toed a cetacean, preferring to leave them to their own devices. It's amusing watching them try to operate them, what with their webbed fingers and all.

Blogger Keith Glass July 12, 2015 8:24 PM  

A vision of about an hour past the Hugo Awards Ceremonies:

PNH and the Toad, both unemployed now, stand in shocked silence in the aftermath of their total rout at the Hugos.

And then Scalzi walks up, and says to PNH: "I have always loved you. . . . "

(evil grin)

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