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Sunday, July 05, 2015

Why Greece should vote "NO"

The depths of dishonesty and economic depravity to which the EU and the IMF have been willing to descend are simply astonishing:
If you haven’t been following developments in the Greek-EU standoff, you’re really missing out. This might be the best story of the year. And what makes it so riveting, is that no one thought that little Greece could face off with the powerful leaders of the EU and make them blink. But that’s exactly what’s happened. On Monday, members of the Eurogroup met with Greece’s finance minister, Yanis Varoufakis, to decide whether they would accept Greece’s terms for an extension of the current loan agreement. There were no real changes to the agreement. The only difference was semantics, that is, the loan would not be seen as a bailout but as “a transitional stage to a new contract for growth for Greece”. In other words, a bridge to a different program altogether.

In retrospect, Varoufakis’s strategy was pure genius, mainly because it knocked the EU finance ministers off balance and threw the process into turmoil. After all, how could they vote “thumbs down” on loan package that they had previously approved just because the language was slightly different? But if they voted “thumbs up”, then what?

Well, then they would be acknowledging (and, tacitly, approving) Greece’s determination to make the program less punitive in the future. That means they’d be paving the way for an end to austerity and a rethink on loan repayment. They’d also be conceding that Greece’s democratically-elected government had the right to alter the policies of the Eurogroup. How could they let that happen?

But, then again, how could they vote it down, after all, it was basically the same deal. As Varoufakis pointed out in a press conference on Monday:

    “We agree to the terms of our loan agreements to all our creditors”. And we have “agreed to do nothing to derail the existing budget framework during the interim period.”

See? It’s the same deal. This is the conundrum the Eurogroup faced on Monday, but instead of dealing with it head-on, as you would expect any mature person to do, they punted. They put off the loan extension decision for another day and called it quits. Now maybe that was the smart thing to do, but the optics sure looked terrible. It looked like Varoufakis stared them down and sent them fleeing like scared schoolchildren.

Now, remember, Monday was the absolute, drop-dead deadline for deciding whether the Eurogroup would approve or reject the new terms for Greece’s loan extension. That means the Eurogroup’s task could not have been more straightforward. All they had to do was vote yes or no. That’s it.

Instead, they called ‘Time Out’ and kicked the can a little further down the road. It was not a particularly proud moment for the European Union. But what’s even worse, is the subterfuge that preceded the meetings; that’s what cast doubt on the character of the people running EU negotiations. Here’s the scoop: About 15 minutes before the confab began, Varoufakis was given a draft communique outlining the provisions of the proposed loan extension. He was pleasantly surprised to find that the document met all his requirements and, so, he was prepared to sign it. Unfortunately, the document was switched shortly before the negotiations began with one that backtracked on all the crucial points.

I’m not making this up. The freaking Eurogroup tried to pull the old switcheroo on Varoufakis to get him to sign something that was different than the original.
Once you know someone is dishonest, don't work with them. You know, you absolutely know, that they will screw you over without hesitation every time they have both motive and opportunity.

Even if the Eurozone were a benefit to its members - and there is copious evidence, from Romania to Iceland, proving that it most definitely is not - the fact that the IMF-ECB-EU Commission triumvirate would try to play such a childishly stupid game with the fate of nations on the line should be sufficient to convince every citizen of every nation in Europe that both the EU and the Euro are disasters that cannot possibly function as advertised.

The thing is, a "YES" vote won't save Greece, the Euro, or the European Union anyhow. It would be just one more futile kicking of an increasingly immobile can and extend the financial raping of the Greek people a little longer.

Labels:

48 Comments:

Blogger ScuzzaMan July 05, 2015 6:55 AM  

I agree that Greece should vote "No".

My questions are: (A) does Greece have the political leadership to put such a vote into effect? and (B) Does that leadership understand how vicious and prolonged the vengeance of the bankster/tyrant class will be?
IOW, will they vote with eyes open, or do they think they'll get out with a "good-bye and good luck" from the people who just tried to reduce them to serfdom for generations to come?

Blogger Rantor July 05, 2015 7:15 AM  

I also support the no vote, but have little hope that Greece will succeed in the short term. The socialist government in place will be unable to meet spending commitments (pensions, utilities, etc.), will squander whatever they take in a bail in, and probably hire some vampire squid (Goldman Sachs) advisors who will screw things up only after they are paid, cash, in advance.

Greece should learn from that... Everything after the collapse should be paid in cash.

Anonymous grey enlightenment July 05, 2015 7:36 AM  

I hope they vote 'no' because then I can make good money buying the dip after stocks fall

Anonymous Menelaus July 05, 2015 7:40 AM  

Tangential: Greece, equality, serfdom...

Ann Sterzinger reviews Creveld's Equality with some rational words re Castalia House.

Blogger Jack Ward July 05, 2015 7:55 AM  

In movie Guns of Navarone, the hero stated that Greeks don't make idle threats. Would that they, Greeks, remember the WWII occupation and, further back, the plains of Marathon.
Time will tell, as it usually does.

Blogger Positive Dennis July 05, 2015 8:10 AM  

Note that this article is from February. I had not recalled that the EU had tried to switch the terms at the last minute back then. Interesting.

Blogger Jew613 July 05, 2015 8:11 AM  

The EU was foolish if they'd been all sweetness the Greeks would have accepted the loans and still be under EU dominion even if the leash would be loose. Now the EU may fall to pieces altogether.

Anonymous Geoff July 05, 2015 8:17 AM  

Despite everything that Greece has been through, and regardless of the vote outcome, the vast majority of Greeks (around 75% depending on the poll) still want to keep the Euro. It's frustrating.

Anonymous Whitey McWhite July 05, 2015 8:23 AM  

Once you know someone is dishonest, don't work with them.

Thus the problem is correctly solved. All verbiage after that is merely entertainment.

Anonymous zen0 July 05, 2015 8:40 AM  

8. Geoff
> Despite everything that Greece has been through, and regardless of the vote outcome, the vast majority of Greeks (around 75% depending on the poll) still want to keep the Euro.

MPAI or thinking like women? When problem solving with (or usually for) women I know, I lay out the options and they always want to subvert the choices because it is not what they want.

Anonymous quillon July 05, 2015 8:42 AM  

It almost doesn't matter. So long as Greece (and the rest of Europe) continues to be overrun by endless swarms of non-white migrants, who cares what happens to the euro? If this isn't halted soon, there won't be any Europeans to demand austerity from, and the faces on the currency will be Nelson Mandela and the King of Morocco.

OpenID bc64a9f8-765e-11e3-8683-000bcdcb2996 July 05, 2015 8:51 AM  

Every time you kick a can down the road, it becomes more mis-shapen, can't "roll" as far, and ultimately simply doesn't hold water anymore.
CaptDMO

Anonymous Sensei July 05, 2015 9:03 AM  

and, further back, the plains of Marathon.

I have been told more than once that these Greeks are not those Greeks. Does anyone know whether this is true?

Anonymous rienzi July 05, 2015 9:14 AM  

11.quillon: "It almost doesn't matter. So long as Greece (and the rest of Europe) continues to be overrun by endless swarms of non-white migrants, who cares what happens to the euro? If this isn't halted soon, there won't be any Europeans to demand austerity from, and the faces on the currency will be Nelson Mandela and the King of Morocco."


Not to fear. Once the non-whites run all the whites out of Europe, and there are no more productive people to parasite off of, they will be left sitting in a dark, cold, damp place where nothing works, and you have to bust your rear just to grow a little food. At that point I would imagine going back to Algeria, Mali, or wherever will be the order of the day.

Also, who gets to have their face on the fifty quadrillion Euro note? Mandela or Hassan?

Blogger Tommy Hass July 05, 2015 9:23 AM  

https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2015/06/30/grexit-prexit-texit/#comment-682858

Thoughts?

Blogger Robert What? July 05, 2015 9:28 AM  

Hopefully the Greeks do not have electronic voting.

Blogger IM2L844 July 05, 2015 9:46 AM  

Once the non-whites run all the whites out of Europe, and there are no more productive people to parasite off of, they will be left sitting in a dark, cold, damp place where nothing works, and you have to bust your rear just to grow a little food.

Kind of like Detroit.

Anonymous quillon July 05, 2015 9:51 AM  

"I have been told more than once that these Greeks are not those Greeks. Does anyone know whether this is true?"

Well, I don't have an academic source, but the plain fact is that Greece has been invaded so many times since the days of Plato that there's bound to have been a fair amount of ethnic mixing.

Blogger kudzu bob July 05, 2015 9:55 AM  

@quillon

It almost doesn't matter.

This financial crisis may well contribute to the rise of nationalism in Greece and elsewhere. It that happens, then the likelihood that the African invasion of Europe will be halted and even reversed goes up considerably.

Blogger michaeloh59 July 05, 2015 9:55 AM  

The Greeks voted to throw a huge party for themselves and borrowed the money to pay for it. All parties must eventually end and the tab has come due. The question is who gets the tab: the Greeks, the EU Taxpayer, and/or the Creditors. If the Greeks vote No and exit the EU they will still pick up a good part of the tab for their party; they will be forced to re-issue the drachma, which presumably will worth substantially less than the Euro, which will mean an immediate loss of wealth for everyone holding cash. Also Greeks would no longer get to borrow at German interest rates but presumably a much higher rate reflective of their habit of over borrowing. Bottom line is the Greeks are going to get a haircut one way or the other.

I think the interesting question is this: are the Greeks better off accepting a bailout and cheap interest rates by surrendering sovereignty as an EU member, or reclaiming sovereignty now and taking a very large and painful haircut immediately? One might easily argue that the haircut should come now and start rebuilding for the grandchildren. But here's the catch-
Do you not get the feeling that all the social forces which led to the all the decisions to throw that giant party on borrowed money are the exact same forces now urging a NO vote? And further that the Adult vote who may well have been opposed to the Party, are many of those who are urging a YES vote?

OpenID mattse001 July 05, 2015 10:04 AM  

Possible motives for Germany's/EU's position:
- If Greece leaves the EU, it may encourage other PIIGS nations to leave. That cannot be permitted.
- If Greece stays, the IMF says they will need significant debt reduction to have any hope of economic recovery. That would encourage the other PIIGS nations to ask for debt reduction. That cannot be permitted.
- Like a pimp, Germany may just want its damned money. Certainly the banksters do.

It seems to me that Germany has painted itself into a corner. They cannot allow Greece to leave, but they cannot take the actions necessary to save Greece if it stays. They are trying to sacrifice the nation of Greece on the altar of the EU project.
On the one hand, the logic of their position is rational and consistent. On the other hand, it is wildly immoral. All of this has been done to support an edifice based on a false assumption: that there could exist a United States of Europe (assuming that wasn't a lie, and it was just to boost Germany's exports).
Like most leftism, the premises were faulty and so the system must be coercive to enforce it.

OpenID mattse001 July 05, 2015 10:17 AM  

ScuzzaMan
"(B) Does that leadership understand how vicious and prolonged the vengeance of the bankster/tyrant class will be?"

The leadership probably understands; that's why they're urging the people to vote no. The problem is the people: 80% want to stay with the Euro, but 80% don't want their pensions cut. Those two positions are incompatible. Like zen0 says, the Greeks are thinking like women; imagining there's a 3rd option just because they don't like the options they're given. Magical thinking.

OpenID mattse001 July 05, 2015 10:24 AM  

michaeloh59
"I think the interesting question is this: are the Greeks better off accepting a bailout and cheap interest rates by surrendering sovereignty as an EU member, or reclaiming sovereignty now and taking a very large and painful haircut immediately?"

The "bailout" won't be a lasting solution. As I said in my post #21, Germany can't afford the precedent of giving Greece a debt haircut since the other PIIGS might demand the same deal. Therefore, any "bailout" will just be more loans to pay off the original loans. Germany already believes that's unsustainable. That's why this is being brought to a head now.

Anonymous Trimegistus July 05, 2015 10:27 AM  

The funny thing is that I can't offhand think of a country in Europe that really benefits from the union. Germany winds up paying everybody else's bills. Southern Europe winds up with overvalued money and external meddling in their finances. France has to let a bunch of Belgians make foreign policy decisions.

Other than the actual employees of the Eurogov bureaucracy, who in Europe wants the EU? Is there any country where it's popular?

Anonymous The other robot July 05, 2015 10:31 AM  

Those two positions are incompatible. Like zen0 says, the Greeks are thinking like women; imagining there's a 3rd option just because they don't like the options they're given. Magical thinking.

Perhaps there is a third, as uttered by Dick the butcher. Maybe more than just lawyers, though.

OpenID mattse001 July 05, 2015 10:38 AM  

Who is Dick the butcher, and what is his option? There's nobody by that name listed above in the comments.

Blogger Danby July 05, 2015 10:45 AM  

@Mattse001

Dick: The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
Cade: Nay, that I mean to do.
Henry The Sixth, Part 2 Act 4

Blogger Doom July 05, 2015 10:57 AM  

Honestly? It doesn't matter what the Greeks say. Their culture has boned them and they seem to learn nothing or ever. They still want more loans and to stay in and to not have to pay the loans back. Wet dreams, these people would mess those up. And they'd think messing it up was enjoyable. Reminds me of the boomers here. Exactly.

Anonymous The other robot July 05, 2015 11:00 AM  

They still want more loans and to stay in and to not have to pay the loans back.

Predatory Lenders: Noun, those who entice you to take on debt that they have the power to force you to repay.

Anonymous The other robot July 05, 2015 11:05 AM  

How long before debt slavery becomes as bad a term as slavery?

In The Jews of West Africa Peter Frost points out that the I[g]bo would seem to be a high-IQ group of black Africans who were heavily involved in the peculiar institution at the source and are alleged by other groups of blacks to be exploitative etc ...

Blogger JartStar July 05, 2015 11:12 AM  

This vote is a bellwether for nearly all Western countries, as most people are aware of the right thing to do for the long run but can't stand to lose that lucious government money even when it's poisoned.

OpenID simplytimothy July 05, 2015 11:29 AM  

Once you know someone is dishonest, don't work with them. You know, you absolutely know, that they will screw you over without hesitation every time they have both motive and opportunity.

America's political class to a 'T'

Anonymous roger July 05, 2015 11:40 AM  

"I have been told more than once that these Greeks are not those Greeks. Does anyone know whether this is true?"

Well, I don't have an academic source, but the plain fact is that Greece has been invaded so many times since the days of Plato that there's bound to have been a fair amount of ethnic mixing."

Not really. mixing was minimal at best, and those who mixed were counted among the populations they mixed with, i.e., marrying/mating with a Turk made you and your offspring "Turkish." As for offspring resulting from rape, infanticide was the way. Invasions did little in terms of mixing, besides, the Greek mainland was under Frankish occupation for a long time as well, why does no one seem to know that? Anyway, there you go.

Blogger Doom July 05, 2015 11:45 AM  

simplytimothy,

Yes, but all of them. The system, as it stands, makes it too easy to corrupt. Watch them hit D.C., then D.C. hit them back. In a year, at most, they are in line for grooming, getting in bed with whoever they are told as if they were teen girls, had just landed on Epstein's island, and Billy Boy had just shown up to help them with their civil rights.

Anonymous Jourdan July 05, 2015 11:58 AM  

Examine how this debate has unfolded, here and elsewhere. There are roughly two groups of observers. The majority, let's call them "Economists" view the matter as an economic crisis. The minority, let's call them the "Politicals" view the crisis as a purposely-evoked crisis with the dual purpose of rent-seeking and aligning other small EU nations for future rent-seeking, as was done in the case with the Irish Republic.

The Economists spoke of "deadlines" and "drop-dead" dates.
The Politicals said such deadlines and drop-dead dates were illusory tactics to gain negotiating leverage and scare Europeans into acquiescing to rent-seeking.

The Economists argued the numbers and stated the Euro was and is doomed.
The Politicals said the Euro is only incidentally a unit of value and is more properly understood as the mechanism by which false crises could induce greater rent-seeking.

The Economists argued that Greece was on the verge of collapse, that humanitarian, including basic medical aid, is or would be shortly needed.
The Politicals argued that real hardship just this short of a real humanitarian disaster was being purposely imposed to create the conditions for rent-seeking under extremely favorable conditions, as desperate people will agree to anything.

The Economists argued that IMF "rules" prevented this or that from happening.
The Politicals laughed at such naivete and pointed at that, as with earlier rent-seeking false crises like TARP or the GM or AIG bail-outs, the rules exist only to prevent competitors from successfully rent-seeking.

Now that you've had some months to observe this crisis close up, as it has been regularly reported on by our gracious host, tell me, my fellow vile minions?

Does the majority or the minority view appear more likely to you?

Do you really expect Greece to "exit the Euro" or the EU to fall?

Understanding the nature of the ruling class is the first and most essential step in understanding where the stiletto blow should strike.

As with our struggle with Tor Books as compared to the relative ease in which the Confederate Battle Flag was declared a double-plus badthink nonperson, it is equally no surprise that the Greek Left understands the situation much, much better than my comrades here amongst the Ilk.

We have a long way to go. Let's start by discarding old ways of thinking and beginning to analyze events as they are rather than as we would wish them to be.

Blogger Shimshon July 05, 2015 12:10 PM  

OT Jourdan, I believe as of tomorrow we have a bet to settle. So far it looks like I am the loser. All for a good time.

Anonymous Grinder July 05, 2015 12:17 PM  

I pray for a "No" vote outcome and I hope that enough of what made the Greeks of history strong is still alive in them. The Scots disappointed me in that way with their independence vote.
A difficult, shared strong struggle against a formidable foe brings people together. The Greek nation can emerge from this chapter in their history stronger and a shining example to the oppressed whites of the world. They don't need the EU. The EU needs slaves to keep their elites on top.

Blogger Cail Corishev July 05, 2015 12:17 PM  

I have been told more than once that these Greeks are not those Greeks.

Well, "those Greeks" lived in mostly autonomous communities separated by rough geography, smaller in size than Aristotle's limit on how large a city could be properly self-governing, rather than a modern nation-state where the government has no connection to the people. And they still regularly experimented with tyrants, both native-born and foreign. They had times when "the people" voted for unrealistic or foolish policies and followed demagogues (for which they had to invent that word). When Athens got large enough, it went through its period of overextended empire until it burned itself out.

We tend to focus on the Golden Age of Athens, but that only lasted 50 years. Much of their history wasn't that golden, and the people weren't all Leonidas and Pericles. When you read about the way people followed Alcibiades, or how the Athenians voted for a second expedition to Sicily after the first one was a disaster, it's not too hard to imagine those same people buying a pig in a poke from a neighboring empire if the terms seemed sweet enough.

They were also good at squabbling endlessly while things came crashing down around them, and more than once needed an exceptional leader to save their bacon.

Anonymous Grinder July 05, 2015 12:34 PM  

Tsipras could still disappoint me if he gets a "No" result and then still goes along with re-packaged EU demands with different names. I just heard a remark attributed to him calling a "No" result as a vote for dignity. If accurate, does this mean that a "No" result will end up with Greeks going back with cap in hand for more bailout $$?
Now that the polls are closed and the "No" is showing an early lead, I am already anxious over what comes next with Syriza in charge.
Tsipras (to EU): With our No result, we are entitled to R-E-S-P-E-C-T. You may now resume pounding us up the ass and spraying your load of euros in our face, but you have to say you love us.
I just can't shake my pessimism.

OpenID mattse001 July 05, 2015 12:49 PM  

@ Danby,
Thanks. I need to brush up on my Shakespeare.

Anonymous quillon July 05, 2015 12:53 PM  

I have to say, sometimes I'm skeptical about whether this or that matter ought to be put to a broad vote (which some judge will then reverse anyway). This for instance is an economic and monetary issue I can't even begin to understand, but tour guides and restaurant waiters are supposed to be consulted on it? We have referendums over things like whether the town should raise money to rebuild the bridge or something, but should a whole country be voting on which card is the ace in a game of 3-card monte, or complicated issues of aeronautic design? Isn't that what people elect leaders to do? Granted they sound like they elected some piss-poor leaders, but there's that old saying about making your bed and so forth.

Anonymous Sheila July 05, 2015 1:18 PM  

To all wondering about Greek population genetics - I cannot recall where I initially linked to this from (possibly hbdchick or Stevesailer) but here's a fascinating study of the similarities and differences between Greeks, Turks, and Armenians. There was another study that went further, if I recall, but the summation was that while there has definitely been a great deal of mixing, the basic population genetics of Greeks are more "European" than Turks or Armenians (who are amazingly similar in genetic terms). So yes, today's Greeks are more mixed than those of yore, and those of yore were more stereotypically Caucasian (lots of historical descriptions of blond hair, blue eyes, and fair skin).

Anonymous Jourdan July 05, 2015 1:29 PM  

Latest results I've been able to find with just over 10% of vote counted. So far at least, there is not one electoral district in entire nation in which "Yes" is in the lead.

Results at 10.3% of total
No: 59.87%
Yes: 40.13%
participation: 54.8%


The participation rate seems shockingly low to me, even if one considers that faith in a democratic solution/elections must be rock bottom.

Anonymous rubberducky July 05, 2015 1:46 PM  

The Eurogroup pulled the switcheroo on Greece? If this true, what we've long suspected is confirmed. And the Eurogroup is finished. They just lost every argument they ever made or will make. Yes, it's that damaging. It's an Arthur Anderson level of duplicity - a charter puller.

Anonymous Jourdan July 05, 2015 1:50 PM  

@Shimshon -

That remains to be seen, but let me make something clear:

I am not advancing my view here to parade around a superior understanding or to "win" an Internet argument.

I'm advancing my view here because I know in my head, heart and soul that until we have an aggressive, confident Right that is organized and truly understands the nature of the enemy, we cannot fight back.

And I think the kernel of such a Right is located here (and a few other places).

That kernel needs to be gathered, taught, strengthened, organized, forged into a weapon. (Note, not here: while I am setting forth my view here this is in no way Vox's vision or his purpose for his website here).

It needs to become a *cadre*.

As I work (elsewhere) to organize that cadre, I am doing my best to point out to potential members that their estimation of their strength is over-wrought, their estimation of the enemy's strength is way short of the mark, and their analysis of events remains too tied to the mainstream conservative analysis, which has failed for decades.

That is many times more important to me than a bet or a chance to say "I told you so" on the Internet.

I'm looking for soldier/poets, not Internet brownie points, if you see what I mean.

Blogger Rantor July 05, 2015 1:55 PM  

Congratulations Greece, you have a new Independence Day. You have once again a republic, if you can keep it. (To paraphrase Ben F.).

Blogger VFM bot #188 July 05, 2015 4:11 PM  

@Jourdan: I know in my head, heart and soul that until we have an aggressive, confident Right that is organized and truly understands the nature of the enemy, we cannot fight back. And I think the kernel of such a Right is located here (and a few other places). That kernel needs to be gathered, taught, strengthened, organized, forged into a weapon.

Yes.

Blogger michaeloh59 July 06, 2015 10:26 AM  

Mattse001 The EU Establishment want their Greek slaves AND their money. They are going to get both by presenting the tab for the Greek bailout to the EU taxpayer. See! Everybody (who's anybody) wins.

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