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Wednesday, July 01, 2015

You can't accommodate the Left

Sultan Knish explains the futility of trying to talk to, reason with, or accomodate the SJWs:
You can't accommodate the left on social issues. You can't accommodate it on fiscal issues. You can't do it. Period.

The left exists to destroy you. It does not seek to co-exist with you. Its existence would lose all meaning. Any common ground will be used to temporarily achieve a goal before the useful idiots are kicked to the curb and denounced as bigots who are holding back progress.

The purpose of power is power. The left is not seeking to achieve a set of policy goals before kicking back and having a beer. The policy goals are means of destroying societies, nations and peoples before taking over. If you allow it a policy goal, it will ram that goal down your throat. It will implement it as abusively as it can possibly can before it moves on to the next battle.

It's not about gay marriage. It's not about cakes. It's about power.

More fundamentally it's about the difference in human nature between the people who want to be left alone and those who want power over others.
He's absolutely right. There is ample historical precedent for their behavior and the eventual consequences of it. The moderate position is a complete nonstarter, as Brad Torgersen, among others, has learned. Read the whole thing.

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264 Comments:

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Blogger JartStar July 01, 2015 9:27 AM  

This is why the left is desperately telling, almost begging social conservatives and traditional Christians just to go along with SSM and stop arguing. They know the tenuous nature of the edifice they have built and if it becomes open conflict it will crumble.

Anonymous Homesteader July 01, 2015 9:36 AM  

This. It is not "hands across the aisle". It's a blade across the throat.

Jon "Stuart" Liebowitz is the smiling minstrel of a totalitarian juggernaut. Rachel Maddow is the intellectual apologist. Neither care about truth.

The goal has ALWAYS been the destruction of Christendom. All of the transient causes, seen in toto, serve a larger ourpose. Each destroys some fundamental aspect of a healthy society.

Blogger W.LindsayWheeler July 01, 2015 9:36 AM  

It is not about power. It is about religion, albeit a ersatz religion. It is about progress. It is Cultural Marxism. It is about fixing the world of its evils and traditionalists, conservatives are evil because they hold to evil old institutions and practices.

Mr. Knish is positing "power" because he wants to juxtapose it to "freedom". Which is not conservative or traditionalist thought anyway. What does doing away with nations and races about "power"? Nothing. It is about "re-creating".

Knish is right that you can't talk to them, but his focal point is wrong.

Anonymous homesteader July 01, 2015 9:39 AM  

purpose

Blogger Patrikbc#344 July 01, 2015 9:45 AM  

Moral relativists hate GOD, the only absolute they be live in is absolute power and are willing to justify any means to achieve it.

Blogger Laguna Beach Fogey July 01, 2015 9:46 AM  

Yes, he's absolutely right.

The reason the Right keeps losing is that it is not serious about achieving power.

Conservatives, Christians, and right-wingers in general lack that killer instinct and brutality required to successfully achieve and maintain rule.

Bring on Civil War 2.

Blogger VFM bot #188 July 01, 2015 9:51 AM  

I read it all: The left will destroy the things you care about, because you care about them. It will destroy them because that gives them power over you. It will destroy them because these things stand in the way of its power. You can't accommodate the left on social issues. You can't accommodate it on fiscal issues. You can't do it. Period. The left exists to destroy you. It does not seek to co-exist with you. You can't work out a truce with tyrants. You can give in or stand up to them. There's nothing else.

SJW's are the shock troops of the left. As such, they are cunning, vicious, dangerous, animals.

Read it all.

Anonymous Peter Garstig July 01, 2015 9:57 AM  

What does doing away with nations and races about "power"? Nothing. It is about "re-creating".

Yeah, and what do you need to 're-create'? What stands in the way of 're-creation'?

Oh my dear wheeler.

Anonymous Whitey McWhite July 01, 2015 9:57 AM  

"The policy goals are means of destroying societies, nations and peoples before taking over."

Then comes more destruction.

Anonymous Menelaus July 01, 2015 9:58 AM  

CW2 may not be necessary. Go for the head(s) of the snakes.
Dismantle academia. Disempower the fed.
You will find sjw's wherever there are high-paying jobs with no skills required.
Destroy these jobs/institutions and the war is over.
Render sjw's unemployable.

Anonymous Neguy July 01, 2015 10:04 AM  

Leftism is always and everywhere a fundamentally totalitarian ideology. There may be moderate leftists, but there is no moderate leftism.

Even the most seemingly benign of social democratic systems has the seeds of totalitarianism within it.

No matter how personally nice your moderately lefty friends might be to you, they certainly won't have your back once the tipping point on any given issue is reached.

This is the great delusion of the libertarians or the "fiscally conservative, socially liberal" crowd. Friedrich Hayek pointed out that without economic liberty, there is no other form of liberty. What's usually missed is that you can't even get to economic liberty without a properly morally ordered society. It's no surprise to see an increasingly totalitarian social state emerge in an age of libertinism.

Libertarians, broadly understood, are the soft left, whether they know it or not. That's why corporate America is jumping onto the SJW bandwagon. Calls for low taxes can happily co-exist with leftist social ideology, at least for a time. The corporate SJWs don't understand where their path ultimately leads though.

Anonymous Chris McFaggot July 01, 2015 10:04 AM  

There is no war, there are no sides. Racists and homophobes are unpersons, and thus incapable of dissent.

Blogger Salt July 01, 2015 10:04 AM  

It's going to be very ugly. I can see balcony's and roof tops becoming a new form of Court.

Anonymous dantealiegri July 01, 2015 10:05 AM  

Everyone needs to read Gulag Archipelago if they haven't. That is where they will go. They want to make things perfect, and if they need to kill 5, or 10 or 20 million, well, a lot of eggs ...

Blogger Student in Blue July 01, 2015 10:06 AM  

@W.LindsayWheeler
It is not about power. It is about religion, albeit a ersatz religion.
It is about religion, but at the base it's about power. They wish to become God, so they work to depose Him.

What does doing away with nations and races about "power"? Nothing. It is about "re-creating".

That is how the leftists in charge are trying to gain more power. They are re-creating things in their own image, so that they are gods, so that they have power.

Mr. Knish is positing "power" because he wants to juxtapose it to "freedom". Which is not conservative or traditionalist thought anyway.

You'll have to explain why "freedom" is not a conservative or traditionalist thought, as I'm not seeing it.

Anonymous Chris McFaggot July 01, 2015 10:11 AM  

People who are "socially liberal economically conservative" seem fine until you realize economic conservatism is both racist and sexist.

Blogger Chris July 01, 2015 10:22 AM  

A powerful article that explains it well. A definite good read.

Anonymous kfg July 01, 2015 10:26 AM  

"It is about "re-creating". "

You cannot create without power. You cannot re-create without first destroying. You cannot destroy without power.

Power is force over time. All change is driven by power.

Blogger Cecil Henry July 01, 2015 10:26 AM  

Anti-racist is just a codeword for anti-white.

Calling someone 'racist' today just means you hate them because they're NOT anti-white.

YOu hate them because they value their race and understand that whites have racial interests.

The hypocrisy destroys any the Potemkin facade of credibility these SJW's imagine they have.

Enough.

Blogger luagha July 01, 2015 10:26 AM  

I propose a corollary to Laws 1 and 2:

Corollary 4: SJWs never follow through on their part of a compromise. Be it physical or mental, if they offer you any this-for-that, you will never receive your 'that' while they pocket whatever you are giving.

If they concede a totally obvious point in a discussion for a moment, they haven't really conceded it and it will return a paragraph later assumed as still true. If they offer some physical action, like building a fence in response for an amnesty, the fence never gets built. And so on.

Blogger Jim July 01, 2015 10:29 AM  

What does doing away with nations and races about "power"?

You're kidding, right? If you control everything within your own nation, that still doesn't mean the people you want under your thumb can't get up and leave. It's important to the Left that Exit never be an option.

Anonymous Tom Joad July 01, 2015 10:29 AM  

Or maybe it is about gay marriage? And liberty? About giving people the right to be left alone (and marry the person of their choice; a liberty most of us have taken so for granted that we've done it two or three times, all while bemoaning how harmful same-sex marriage could be to this institution we cherish so much we feel the need to engage in it repeatedly) as opposed to those who want power over others (the power to deny marriage to someone because you don't understand the bond they share with someone else, or you find the sexual expression of that bond "icky").

It's been fun watching this, if a little sad.

You all are so certain in your absolute correctness that you can't even begin to comprehend that maybe, just maybe, you've got everything absolutely backwards.

Anonymous RedJack #22 July 01, 2015 10:31 AM  

You have to have core values that you will not compromise. Moderates are those who are on the first level of Dante's hell. Chasing after the pennant being blown by the wind.

I have met, and talked to, people who are the opposite of my beliefs on a host of issues. They are not the ones who annoy me. The ones who play "Why can't we be nice?" cards are the true enemies of civilization. They will sit meekly by as genocide is happening, in order to not be considered outside the mainstream.

Anonymous ISIS July 01, 2015 10:31 AM  

Tom Joad... bake me a cake. Or else.

Blogger Rabbi B July 01, 2015 10:33 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Jim July 01, 2015 10:33 AM  

People who are "socially liberal economically conservative" seem fine until you realize economic conservatism is both racist and sexist.

I always read "socially liberal, economically conservative" as "I want everything and I'll take all your money to pay for it," as opposed to the Krugman "I want everything and I'm stupid enough to think an endless amount of IOUs are enough" school of economics.

Anonymous RedJack #22 July 01, 2015 10:33 AM  

Tom,
They are coming after us. Soon, a gay couple will sue a church demanding that the church change its beliefs in order to accommodate them. They are so sure they are right (never mind the weight of history, and the examples of what happens when homosexuals dominate a society), they will not allow those who disagree with them to exist.

Same with abortion, global warming, and a host of other issues. The inquisition is not being run by the Christians, it is being run by the other side.

Blogger Rabbi B July 01, 2015 10:34 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Roundtine July 01, 2015 10:35 AM  

You'll have to explain why "freedom" is not a conservative or traditionalist thought, as I'm not seeing it.

Depends if you're limiting the field to Anglo-Saxons or not.

Blogger Rabbi B July 01, 2015 10:36 AM  

"The purpose of power is power . . . It's about power."

It most certainly is.

Kings versus prophets:

Kings exert power, prophets influence. When a king dies, his power ends. When a prophet dies, his influence begins. To paraphrase Shakespeare, “The influence we have lives after us; the power is oft interred with our bones.”

I am not going to suggest that VD is a prophet, but there is no doubt that he and many of the commenters here have influence, and that's what really strikes fear into the hearts of those who crave and work so hard to maintain power.

What was King Ahab's complaint about the prophet Micaiah?

The king of Israel answered Jehoshaphat, “There is still one prophet through whom we can inquire of the L-rd, but I hate him because he never prophesies anything good about me, but always bad. He is Micaiah son of Imlah.” (I Kings 22)

Anonymous kfg July 01, 2015 10:38 AM  

" . . . the right to be left alone (and marry . . ."

Conflating marriage with being left alone is an interesting logical back flip.

Anonymous Stingray July 01, 2015 10:40 AM  

Or maybe it is about gay marriage?

Riiiiggghhht

And since you'll come back with each movement has outliers retort, don't bother. If your argument were true homosexuals would have been content with legalized civil unions. They're not.

You all are so certain in your absolute correctness that you can't even begin to comprehend that maybe, just maybe, you've got everything absolutely backwards.

Ha! It is to laugh.

Blogger Jim July 01, 2015 10:41 AM  

and marry the person of their choice; a liberty most of us have taken so for granted that we've done it two or three times

Wait... I can marry the person of my choice? Since when? Should I tell her first? I hope her current husband doesn't get upset.

Anonymous Tom Joad July 01, 2015 10:42 AM  

Redjack,

The First Amendment will protect you. I serve on my church council. We've been having a discussion about what, if anything, to do about the legalization of gay marriage in our state. We've conducted a very deliberate conversation with the congregation, gauging their feelings on the issue. The pastors have made their personal positions clear, and in a few months we'll decide, as a congregation, whether to conduct same-sex marriages at our church. If we do, the rules will be the same as they always have been: Only those with strong connections to the church will be married here, and they'll have to go through pre-marital pastoral counseling.

Not everyone in the church agrees with same-sex marriage. But we are coming at this with mutual respect of the differing opinions on the issue, and a consensus is emerging. One or two folks may leave the church if we go that route. One or two may leave the church if we decide against conducting same-sex marriages.

But it is our church's decision to make, and I respect the right of every church to go through the same process and decide whether to take that step. That is the right of a church and the right of every pastor.

And, liberal SJW that I am, I will defend that right just as I have spent the last 20 years or more arguing for the civil right of gays to marry.

And when in history have homosexuals EVER dominated a society?

Blogger Laguna Beach Fogey July 01, 2015 10:43 AM  

Blacks and Muslims are the shock troops of the Left.

SJWs are the Orc Captains leading the hordes.

Blogger Jim July 01, 2015 10:45 AM  

And when in history have homosexuals EVER dominated a society?

Ancient Greece.

They still didn't marry then, either.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 July 01, 2015 10:45 AM  

Ayn Rand actually got things right when it comes to compromise:

The three rules listed below are by no means exhaustive; they are merely the first leads to the understanding of a vast subject.

1. In any conflict between two men (or two groups) who hold the same basic principles, it is the more consistent one who wins.

2. In any collaboration between two men (or two groups) who hold different basic principles, it is the more evil or irrational one who wins.

3. When opposite basic principles are clearly and openly defined, it works to the advantage of the rational side; when they are not clearly defined, but are hidden or evaded, it works to the advantage of the irrational side.

Anonymous Tom Joad July 01, 2015 10:45 AM  

Wait... I can marry the person of my choice? Since when? Should I tell her first? I hope her current husband doesn't get upset.

It says something, and not something good, that this is one of the few places on the Internet where when you discuss the right to marry the person of one's choice that you have to add implicit caveats about the choice being mutual.

I guess consent really is a foreign concept to this crew.

Blogger Student in Blue July 01, 2015 10:46 AM  

Depends if you're limiting the field to Anglo-Saxons or not.

I was assuming he was either going for the American field, or for Christianity.

Anonymous Porky July 01, 2015 10:46 AM  

economic conservatism is both racist and sexist.

As worshippers of mammon and lovers of slavery, SJW's consider debt to be something of a sacrament.

The man with $100,000 in student loans, a leased Prius, and a Starbucks card who is funded by Patreon is the millennial SJW ideal.

Anonymous koan July 01, 2015 10:47 AM  

"The First Amendment will protect you. "
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Anonymous comedy hour has begun July 01, 2015 10:49 AM  

I guess consent really is a foreign concept to this crew.

Buy Tor books or else.

Blogger Jim July 01, 2015 10:50 AM  

It says something, and not something good, that this is one of the few places on the Internet where when you discuss the right to marry the person of one's choice that you have to add implicit caveats about the choice being mutual.

I agree. That this is the only place on the Internet where consent isn't taken for granted is a problem. Those other places will you frequent will just konk the girl on the head and drag her back to their basements.

Anonymous kfg July 01, 2015 10:51 AM  

"I guess consent really is a foreign concept to this crew."

We're going to need another rule concerning humor being a foreign concept to them.

Blogger Feather Blade July 01, 2015 10:51 AM  

About giving people the right to be left alone (and marry the person of their choice;

Point of order: there is no "right to marry" especially a "right to marry the person of your choice", and there cannot be.

If one has a right to do something, then all others are obligated to not impede one's ability to exercise that right.

If one has a right to marry and to marry the person of your choice, then everyone else has the obligation to not impede you in the exercise of that right.

What is the first and easiest way to prevent someone from exercising their right to marry the person of their choice?

To reject their proposal of marriage, of course.

If everyone has the right to marry the person of one's choice, then no one has the right to refuse a proposal of marriage, because that impedes the first person's ability to exercise their right to be married to the person of their choice.

Blogger Stephen Ward July 01, 2015 10:54 AM  

@Tom.

Great. She consents... her husband doesn't. What now?
And for how long is the consent valid? How often must it be reaffirmed? Must the reaffirmation be explicit or implicit? Must it be performed in front of witnesses?

Anonymous koan July 01, 2015 10:57 AM  

It is a FACT that Tom Joads bigoted church will not let me marry my 14-year-old cousin aa part of a polygamous relationship. Why? Because Tom is a hateful bigot.

Blogger Cail Corishev July 01, 2015 10:57 AM  

People are starting to get it. Ray Bradbury put it more poetically when he called them the Autumn People (hat tip to John C. Wright for that quote), but this is what it comes down to: the left exists to tear down the good and destroy life. You can't compromise with that, and say, "Okay, we'll let you destroy half the good. You can have sci-fi and fantasy, but we're keeping the Westerns and crime novels." No, pretty soon they're taking those too. "We'll let you have the Senate if you let us keep the House." No, pretty soon they've got both, or they're using the Court to circumvent them. Expecting them to find a happy medium and stop there is like expecting a river to get tired of flowing downhill. It'll stop flowing when it's eroded the land to the point where there is no downhill, and not a moment sooner.

I felt a little weird the first time I said the left seeks to destroy the good, like maybe I was getting too extreme, going too far out on a limb. But I have yet to see that refuted.

Sure, it's possible to reach an individual leftist once in a while. But at the moment that the leftist develops an appreciation for reason and commits himself to seeking objective truth, he becomes an ex-leftist and will no longer seek to destroy goodness. That's possible with the individual, but not with "the left." There will be a "the left" until the end of time, and it will always have to be fought, not compromised with.

Blogger Jim July 01, 2015 10:59 AM  

It is a FACT that Tom Joads bigoted church will not let me marry my 14-year-old cousin aa part of a polygamous relationship.

Oh, I bet his Church of the Cave Bear will. And you don't even have to ask.

This also explains why SJWs are so afraid of the religious and keep screeching on about "rape culture."

Blogger Laguna Beach Fogey July 01, 2015 11:01 AM  

the left exists to tear down the good and destroy life.

Yes. The Left are the eternal enemy of the Good, the Beautiful, and the True.

They exist to destroy everything that a normal, sane White man enjoys, cherishes, and loves.

It is because of Leftists that we know Evil exists in the world.

In the end there is no reasoning or compromising with them. They will have to be killed.

Blogger Cail Corishev July 01, 2015 11:06 AM  

Mr. Knish is positing "power" because he wants to juxtapose it to "freedom". Which is not conservative or traditionalist thought anyway.

That's true, but it's probably a little early to start explaining to people that religious liberty isn't.

Baby steps.

Anonymous zen0 July 01, 2015 11:07 AM  

Tom Joad

But it is our church's decision to make, and I respect the right of every church to go through the same process and decide whether to take that step. That is the right of a church and the right of every pastor.

Boy, was I ever misled. The Kingdom of God is not a Kingdom at all, not even a Republic. Its a democracy.

There must be a trans-lation glitch in all my Bibles.

Blogger VD July 01, 2015 11:07 AM  

Knish is right that you can't talk to them, but his focal point is wrong.

Wheeler, give it up. Do you know why you are so unable to accomplish anything? Because you're just like a moderate. You spend most of your sniping at your own side rather than the other side. You need to learn to support those who are more or less on your own side, not criticize them because you think they are not perfect or don't understand everything exactly the way you do.

Education is NOT the answer. So stop trying to educate everyone, especially when they didn't ask for it.

Anonymous Tallen July 01, 2015 11:07 AM  

it is our church's decision to make, and I respect the right of every church to go through the same process and decide whether to take that step. That is the right of a church and the right of every pastor.

In the church of Satan you have that illusion.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan July 01, 2015 11:08 AM  

I respect Knish because he comes out of the Jewish Bubble, Brooks comes nowhere near its border.

Gay marriage is silly not one single intellectual point has been made in its favor, it's cotton candy for the damaged. Am I not right about the intellectual part?

Anonymous zen0 July 01, 2015 11:09 AM  

Oh, by the way, Tom.

You were a much more sympathetic character in Grapes of Wrath

Blogger VD July 01, 2015 11:13 AM  

You all are so certain in your absolute correctness that you can't even begin to comprehend that maybe, just maybe, you've got everything absolutely backwards.

Of course we are. Because we've watched your side lie and then behave exactly as we said they would, and they denied, the entire time. Just like you're lying now.

If your church embraces gay marriage, it will die. That is a certainty. The fact that you're already considering it suggests that it is already dying, even if you don't realize it yet.

Anonymous zen0 July 01, 2015 11:14 AM  

National Health Interview Survey

The National Health Interview Survey, which is the government’s premier tool for annually assessing Americans’ health and behaviors, found that 1.6 percent of adults self-identify as gay or lesbian, and 0.7 percent consider themselves bisexual.

So let's overturn civilization so 1.6% of the population has no feelbad.

Anonymous Soga July 01, 2015 11:15 AM  

Who wants to bet that Tom isn't actually part of a church?

Do you know of ANY Christian or Churchian that talks about church the way he does? One of his long-winded diatribes up above was just loaded with SJW jargon.

And all together: SJWs always...

Blogger VFM bot #188 July 01, 2015 11:15 AM  

Gee, Tom Joad seems to be such a nice, reasonable moderate. I wonder if he extends "First Amendment protection" to bakers, photographers, flower arrangers, restaurant owners, jewelry designers, and others....

Oh! That's different!

Tom, do us a favor and fuck off. You are the Sultan Knish tyrant. And you lie.

Blogger Rabbi B July 01, 2015 11:19 AM  

"I respect the right of every church to go through the same process and decide whether to take that step."

That's really sweet of you, because we absolutely CRAVE your respect above everything else and just can't possibly imagine how our lives will go on without it.

What a putz.

Anonymous anonymous coward July 01, 2015 11:19 AM  

Ancient Greece

No. Homosexuality was viewed as vile and degenerate in Ancient Greece. They 'tolerated' it insofar as they didn't believe in legislating this sort of thing. (If ancient Greeks were alive today, they'd be libertarians.)

Anonymous Tom Joad July 01, 2015 11:20 AM  

VD: If your church embraces gay marriage, it will die. That is a certainty. The fact that you're already considering it suggests that it is already dying, even if you don't realize it yet.

That's odd, because it appears to be doing the opposite of dying. We are a small church, but we are growing.

Just like you're lying now.

It's wrong to bear false witness against your neighbor, VD. In fact, it's one of the commandments. And you're violating it.

Anonymous Soga July 01, 2015 11:21 AM  

And nice catch, zen0. From now on, I'm doing a search on the user names our trolls come by. Funny how he picked the name of a murderer from the novel. It's almost fitting, really. Because if it is true that he is a part of a church, which I very much doubt, he'll be among those responsible for murdering it.

Blogger Tom Kratman July 01, 2015 11:22 AM  

There are two corollaries to this, actually. 1) If the left, which is to say some of its denizens, tells you you have done something good, you need to stop and seriously analyze what mistake you have made, or where your morale error has been. 2) if the left comes out in favor of something or against something, it would be wise to reconsider your own position. Note that, with regard to 2), sincerity matters. Thus, for example, were some on the loonie SJW left (Lord, forgive us our redundancies) to appear to be so judgmental as to criticize Samuel Delany's penchant for buggering little boys, you need not assume there's a great societal benefit in buggering little boys. They don't mean it; they assume it's perfectly fine for Delany to bugger little boys, Thus, you can be sure that permitting the buggering of little boys is societally ruinous. _Everything_ they want is ruinous. They have the reverse Midas Touch, where everything they set their hands to turns to shit.

Blogger Chiva July 01, 2015 11:22 AM  

"and in a few months we'll decide, as a congregation, whether to conduct same-sex marriages at our church"

I have an idea for your church. Follow what is in the Bible.

Blogger Jim July 01, 2015 11:23 AM  

So, the American Law Institute is apparently pro-rape. Their new affirmative consent proposal basically removes any reason for a rapist to allow the victim to live by elevating the crime to the level of first degree murder.

On the bright side, proving that the accuser is lying becomes much, much easier.

And just think, all those new, happily married gay couples will now be guilty of so much rape thanks to this. Suckers.

Anonymous Plato July 01, 2015 11:23 AM  

The Ancient Greek were fans of Pederasty.

Tom, does your church bless pederasty?

Blogger Nate July 01, 2015 11:28 AM  

"The First Amendment will protect you. I serve on my church council. We've been having a discussion about what, if anything, to do about the legalization of gay marriage in our state. We've conducted a very deliberate conversation with the congregation, gauging their feelings on the issue. The pastors have made their personal positions clear, and in a few months we'll decide, as a congregation, whether to conduct same-sex marriages at our church. If we do, the rules will be the same as they always have been: Only those with strong connections to the church will be married here, and they'll have to go through pre-marital pastoral counseling."

I serve on my church council. We've been having a discussion about what, if anything, to do about the legalization of man boy love in our state. We've conducted a very deliberate conversation with the congregation, gauging their feelings on the issue. The pastors have made their personal positions clear, and in a few months we'll decide, as a congregation, whether to conduct man-boy marriages at our church. If we do, the rules will be the same as they always have been: Only those with strong connections to the church will be married here, and they'll have to go through pre-marital pastoral counseling.


Now... do you see what makes your statement the purest form of retardery?

Blogger Stephen Ward July 01, 2015 11:29 AM  

"Who wants to bet that Tom isn't actually part of a church?"

eh. his views as stated are consistent w/ the Vineyard movement

Anonymous Porky July 01, 2015 11:29 AM  

Nobel Laureate's accuser is a lying SJW.



Blogger Kryten 2X4B 523P July 01, 2015 11:29 AM  

Its about power alright.

One of the biggest downsides of "social media" is that it allows all the petty little tyrants of the left who have no actual power to band together and speak with one shrill voice, drowning out all reasoned debate. The left is mob mentality, both physical and virtual.

Blogger Chiva July 01, 2015 11:31 AM  

"and in a few months we'll decide, as a congregation, whether to conduct same-sex marriages at our church"

I have an idea for your church. Follow what is in the Bible.

Anonymous bw July 01, 2015 11:34 AM  

Its existence would lose all meaning

Revolutionaries gotta Revolution.

Blogger praetorian July 01, 2015 11:35 AM  

So stop trying to educate everyone, especially when they didn't ask for it.

Deep wisdom.

LBF making a single sarcastic remark amongst a crowd of women at the bar has done more good for our side than the sum of all Wheelers-Of-The-World intellectual parsing.

Anonymous Tom Joad July 01, 2015 11:38 AM  

Now... do you see what makes your statement the purest form of retardery?

No, because homosexuality is not equivalent to pedophilia.

Want to try again?

Blogger Tiny Tim July 01, 2015 11:38 AM  

Men, any call you get or any interaction with a government employee (DMV, etc.), manager of Wal Mart or the Grocery Store, a moustached woman at the mall, whatever, if you are a man, adopt a very feminine name and even a last name that is indicative of being a minority even though you are clearly white.

Introduce yourself as say "Clarissa Gomez" (as masculine as possible), even if you have to present an ID that clearly shows that is not who you are, state that is who you are today, you resent having to justify that you are a lesbian (I figure I am a lesbian as I like women) and blow it way out of proportion and keep a straight face and protest the insult and request to speak to a manager higher up for this disgraceful behavior.

They have to treat it with seriousness because they are afraid. And if they crack a smile go off on them. I have only done it twice so far but it is very entertaining and I intend to keep doing it, especially when interacting with any government apparatchik.

Keep a straight face and act with superiority.

Turn this movement into the joke it is. Turn this nonsense on itself.

And if it ever goes really bad, sue them into oblivion.

We need to start openly ridiculing and humiliating.

Anonymous Tom Joad July 01, 2015 11:39 AM  

I have an idea for your church. Follow what is in the Bible.

Should we begin stoning rebellious children while we're at it?

Blogger Rabbi B July 01, 2015 11:39 AM  

"and in a few months we'll decide, as a congregation, whether to conduct same-sex marriages at our church"

Forget separation of church and state, it sounds like separation between your church and G-d is the immediate problem that needs remedying.

"We are a small church, but we are growing."

Ah, yes, a sure sign of G-d's favor. How could I forget.

Broad is the path that leads to destruction and MANY find it with little to no trouble at all.

Anonymous Jack Amok July 01, 2015 11:41 AM  

Wait... I can marry the person of my choice?

Not if you want a confederate flag on your wedding cake.

Notice that The Liar Joad said nothing about being left alone to fly whatever flag you want. Or - for anyone with kids left in California - being left alone to not shoot your kids up with whatever poisons the government wants to shoot them up with. Last week was a bout more than just Gay Marriage.

Blogger kurt9 July 01, 2015 11:42 AM  

More fundamentally it's about the difference in human nature between the people who want to be left alone and those who want power over others.

Robert Heinlein said that political and religious labels are meaningless. People divide into two groups. Those who want to control others and those who have no such desire.

Blogger Nate July 01, 2015 11:42 AM  

"No, because homosexuality is not equivalent to pedophilia.

Want to try again?"

***chuckle***

Maybe if I type slower...

There is no end you moron. It doesn't stop. You don't get to give in to gay marriage and then get along after that. After gay marriage... there is just another Cause.. and yes.. that cause is likely to be Man Boy Love. And yes... there are people on the pro-man-boy love side that have been advocating for it for decades.

So you think you're a good liberal today... but tomorrow? Tomorrow you're on our side.

So you can make up your mind... you're either going to join up and fight with us today... or tomorrow. or you can just decide that you have no structure or morals at all. Then you can always be on the side you're on today.

Anonymous Soga July 01, 2015 11:42 AM  

Keep talking, Tom. The more you talk, the more we can pick up on the fact you're lying.

No, because homosexuality is not equivalent to pedophilia.

First: he said pederasty. Don't twist words.
Second: back up that assertion. Why isn't there an equivalence?

Blogger Nate July 01, 2015 11:44 AM  

"Should we begin stoning rebellious children while we're at it?"

Ding ding ding

Liar confirmed. You're not a christian. You're not on the council of a christian church.

Blogger Tiny Tim July 01, 2015 11:44 AM  

Similar to what I will do when bored at the Grocery Store. Say Cosmopolitan has a story on the cover that says "how to work your man's tool to climax".

I will go to the manager (with as many customers around as possible) and ask him if he knows where I can find a book on masturbation techniques for a woman to perform on a man. When they get all indignant and start insinuating you have issues (which the always do), inform him or her that they are the business selling books on "enjoying anal sex" not me. Walk them over to the magazine rack and start reading off the titles of articles and ask the guy if he supports informing 5 year olds about "backdoor pleasures".

This is hours of entertainment and is the gift that just keeps giving. By the end of it they are usually apologizing, especially when you say "maybe the DA would be interested in your supplying of adult sexual information to small children".

It is classic.

Anonymous Soga July 01, 2015 11:44 AM  

Should we begin stoning rebellious children while we're at it?

Folks, does this sound like the retort of a Christian or a Churchian? We present the facts, you make the judgment!

OpenID ar10308 July 01, 2015 11:45 AM  

You're on a church council and you'd marry Soddomites?

Have you not learned from Sodom or Gomorrah? Or read ANY of Revelation?

Should your church decide to marry Anal-sex Afficianados, may it be stricken from the Earth and the Earth underneath it salted.

Anonymous Stingray July 01, 2015 11:46 AM  

So you can make up your mind... you're either going to join up and fight with us today... or tomorrow.

Nah. He'll just rationalize why man-boy love is ok and then fight for it, too. Lest he get kicked out of whatever warren is so important to him.

Blogger Cail Corishev July 01, 2015 11:49 AM  

Kryten, about social media, that's true. But the upside is that it lets the targets of SJWs get their own stories out, organize with each other, and find out how much support there is for them. Before social media, Tim Hunt might have still been fired; it just would have taken longer to work up the outrage through the conventional media. But we never would have found out the rest of the story, how much it was made up, and that his accuser came right out of SJW central casting.

In various fields, the targets are starting to talk to each other and find out just how badly they're being treated and how pathetic their accusers really are. SJWs used to be able to work behind the scenes and let the mainstream media put a nice face on them, but now a spotlight can be turned on their true selves through social media, and it's not pretty.

The SJWs got a big head-start on social media, but whether they keep it will be up to us.

Anonymous Tom Joad July 01, 2015 11:50 AM  

For a group that prides itself on the intelligence of its discussion, you sure do resort to insults quickly. I have not lied about a single thing here, and certainly no one has presented evidence that I have lied. Yet I am called a liar and a moron. Nice.

First: he said pederasty. Don't twist words.
Second: back up that assertion. Why isn't there an equivalence?


Is there a functional distinction between pederasty and pedophilia? In any case, either is distinct from homosexuality, because it involves children below the age of consent.

But we've already established that folks here don't understand the concept of consent.

Anonymous 334 July 01, 2015 11:51 AM  

@78. Tom Joad

You definitely don't go to church, or your pastor is an idiot. Why would you imagine the Jewish law applies today?

First rule.

Anonymous Walter Duranty July 01, 2015 11:51 AM  

Never mind the banks, never mind academia. Never mind the Democratic Party, even.

The media are the enemy. They are the power. They are the government of half the planet already. They make and break politicians, they create "public opinion." They tell the Pope how to be Catholic. They drive the Twitter mobs. Elections are a formality to put a sheen of legitimacy on the people the media selects to do the scut-work of making policy -- not that it matters, really, because they simply report reality as they wish it to be. They say Obamacare is a success, they praise his "wise" foreign policy even as the world catches fire.

The media are the enemy. Fight them every way we can.

Anonymous Tom Joad July 01, 2015 11:52 AM  

Liar confirmed. You're not a christian. You're not on the council of a christian church.

Bzzt. Wrong again, Hans. I am on the council of a church that is part of a mainline Christian denomination. You may not recognize it as Christian, but I could really care less.

Anonymous Stingray July 01, 2015 11:53 AM  

But we've already established that folks here don't understand the concept of consent.

This, right here, is a lie.

Yet I am called a liar and a moron. Nice.

And bring on the shaming. Your textbook.

Anonymous Tom Joad July 01, 2015 11:55 AM  

You definitely don't go to church, or your pastor is an idiot. Why would you imagine the Jewish law applies today?

I do not imagine that. But the suggestion was made that my church should follow what's in the Bible. Stoning rebellious children is, indeed, in the Bible. And I'd stack either of my pastors up against anyone on this board any day of the week.

Anonymous Alexander, #10 July 01, 2015 11:55 AM  

You could care so much less, you go to a blog full of people who disagree with your stance to let them know how much you don't care.

Idiot, or liar?

As the Old El Paso girl tells us, "Why not both?"

Blogger rho July 01, 2015 11:56 AM  

Tom Joad:
Or maybe it is about gay marriage? And liberty? About giving people the right to be left alone (and marry the person of their choice; a liberty most of us have taken so for granted that we've done it two or three times, all while bemoaning how harmful same-sex marriage could be to this institution we cherish so much we feel the need to engage in it repeatedly) as opposed to those who want power over others (the power to deny marriage to someone because you don't understand the bond they share with someone else, or you find the sexual expression of that bond "icky").

All evidence stands against your position:

Liberty. Gays have always had the same right to marry as anybody else. A gay man can marry any woman who would have him. The debate over same-sex marriage is about redefining marriage, not about liberty. If it is about liberty, then marriage can mean nearly anything. Already there is talk about polygamous marriage, and polygamous marriage has a longer and much better understood history than same-sex marriage.

The right to be left alone. It has already been demonstrated that those who disagree with same-sex marriage will not be left alone. They will be harassed and threatened with ruinous lawsuits. Already there is talk about removing 501c non-profit status from religious institutions who do not acquiesce to same-sex marriage.

Those who want power over others. If your church decides to not perform same-sex marriage, you will find out who has power over whom. (Who are we kidding. I'm pretty confident that your church will decide to perform same-sex marriages because it's a church that you go to.)

The fact of the matter is that we have no idea what harm or good may come from same-sex marriage. We have, maybe, 20 years of data, and it's pretty sparse data. I do know that same-sex marriage was pushed through by wrapping it in meaningless terms like "love" (when did government get into the love business?) and opponents attacked with words like "hate" (when did preferring a very successful status quo automatically mean "hate"?)

Anonymous paradox July 01, 2015 11:56 AM  

LOL, The Spartans we're no where near libertarian.

Anonymous anonymous coward July 01, 2015 11:56 AM  

No, because homosexuality is not equivalent to pedophilia.

Well, the sanctified hero pioneers of gay 'rights' certainly didn't agree with that.

Liar confirmed. You're not a christian. You're not on the council of a christian church.

Watch out: he never actually specified that his church is a Christian church. It might be a church of Satan or a Unitarian Church.

Anonymous kfg July 01, 2015 11:57 AM  

"Is there a functional distinction between pederasty and pedophilia?"

Yes.

" . . .it involves children below the age of consent."

No more so than heterosexual behaviour.

Blogger Laguna Beach Fogey July 01, 2015 11:58 AM  

More religious squabbling.

Clueless.

Blogger Rabbi B July 01, 2015 11:59 AM  

"You may not recognize it as Christian, but I could really care less."

That's true, but you should care whether it's recognized by G-d as such. I suspect the lights went out a while ago.

Blogger Jim July 01, 2015 11:59 AM  

You may not recognize it as Christian, but I could really care less

"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"

Is there a functional distinction between pederasty and pedophilia? In any case, either is distinct from homosexuality, because it involves children below the age of consent.

Oh look, it defines pederasty via legality. Clearly a different case from homosexual marriage.

Anonymous bw July 01, 2015 12:02 PM  

because homosexuality is not equivalent to pedophilia.

What it is is a companion and it correlates.
You're ignorant and most likely simply a liar if you claim otherwise. And why so pedophilia-phobic??
You already purposefully support giving the children to the State. Why not to wealthy Elites and Jewish pornographers (openly, rather than the now occulted).

just maybe, you've got everything absolutely backwards

No, you have everything exactly backwards, as Nature, which you despise and hate, notes.
Or to put it in natural terms since you are a liar and desire to overthrow and control Nature: does the male anus naturally lubricate when sexually aroused, and does that "sex act" have the potential for regeneration and replication of themselves personally (unique DNA) or of the species by either male or female homosexuals?

Naturephobic

Anonymous Jack Amok July 01, 2015 12:03 PM  

Kryten, about social media, that's true. But the upside is that it lets the targets of SJWs get their own stories out, organize with each other, and find out how much support there is for them

I'm pretty sure GamerGate came about as a result of the Brandon Eich affair. The folks who make up the core of GamerGate saw what a howling mob could do, and decided they weren't going to take it lying down any more. They got their own mob together and went on the attack.

That is the key. Social media, traditional media, protests, government authority... none of those are inherently Leftist tools, it's just that the Leftists use them unapologetically in pursuit of their goals. We can use them too, once we get over our Marquis of Queensbury affliction and decide it's time to fight back.

Blogger Student in Blue July 01, 2015 12:05 PM  

Stoning rebellious children is, indeed, in the Bible.

You're either a liar, or you don't know your Bible if you're trying to bring up the old covenant in this situation.

Blogger Tiny Tim July 01, 2015 12:05 PM  

It comes down to this "is it normal and rational behavior for a man to insert his penis into another man for pleasure".

For a church to condone this then the church should be closed and open back up as a gay porn theater.

Anonymous Tom Joad July 01, 2015 12:05 PM  

You already purposefully support giving the children to the State.

I did?

OpenID zyz65 July 01, 2015 12:06 PM  

# 37. swiftfoxmark2

Good catch on this quote. I have certainly found in business that people who advance proposals or slant other peoples proposals with a hidden agenda - to increase their own budget / department / influnce etc will usually fold when asked - politely of course - to explain exactly how their proposal or slant will raise profits: does it increase prices, increase sales volumes, decrease costs, reduce working capital requirements ? Usually there is no answer because they have no answer.

Things which can't stand the daylight need to be dragged out of the dark.

Anonymous BigGaySteve July 01, 2015 12:08 PM  

Or maybe it is about gay marriage?...marry the person of their choice; a liberty most of us have taken so for granted

Gays don't actually want to be married as in monogamous, losing 1/2 your assets, & paying alimony. They want to be able to inherit rent controlled apartments, be the center of attention drama queen getting married in a church that doesn't want them, & they want to be gay gold diggers. If people can chose who they can marry I hear Daniel Radcliff is rich, I am willing to overlook his small willey.



Show them this 2 fugly lesbians given custom rings that they admitted they where happy with the service only to summon a hoard of harridans to demand a refund when they found out the jeweler supported trad marriage. http://www.gaypatriot.net/2015/05/22/there-is-no-appeasing-a-fascist-mob/

I guess consent really is a foreign concept to this crew. George RapeRape Martin is on the other side follow the Dorito crumbs

That is the right of a church and the right of every pastor. Tom Joad I have some bad news for you,the church of Baucus took a vote and decided that your church has to send all its first born sons to us before they develop body hair. Are you too homophobic to accommodate us? We have made it easier for you by incorporating as part of Common Core.

you need not assume there's a great societal benefit in buggering little boys

Without blackmail pics would John Roberts vote the same

Anonymous Tom Joad July 01, 2015 12:08 PM  

Stoning rebellious children is, indeed, in the Bible.

You're either a liar, or you don't know your Bible if you're trying to bring up the old covenant in this situation.


Deuteronomy 21:18-21King James Version (KJV)

18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.


I used the King James version. Seemed more your-all's speed.

Blogger Nate July 01, 2015 12:11 PM  

"In any case, either is distinct from homosexuality, because it involves children below the age of consent."

So see... all we have to do is move the age of consent down to say... 4... and then it won't be pedophelia anymore!!! YAY!

***hint***

This is why we say you're a moron.

Blogger Rabbi B July 01, 2015 12:11 PM  

Is Tom Joad . . . . (T)om jo(A)(D)? My troll detector is probably slower than some.

Anonymous Knarf July 01, 2015 12:14 PM  

> And when in history have homosexuals EVER dominated a society?

If your definition of homosexuals includes those still in the closet, I'd say that time in history is NOW.

Or have you already forgotten, say, Dennis Hastert, for starters? Or do you imagine that images manufactured and sold by Hollywood do not dominate our society?

Anonymous Porky July 01, 2015 12:14 PM  

Stoning rebellious children is, indeed, in the Bible.

So is "go to Hell".

Anonymous Krul July 01, 2015 12:15 PM  

"he is a glutton, and a drunkard."

Are we sure these verses refer to children, rather than full grown sons? Intuitively, one doubts that public stoning would be necessary for prepubescent children who are not yet strong enough to resist the rod.

Blogger Student in Blue July 01, 2015 12:21 PM  

@Tom Joad
Good job quoting the old covenant. I like how you had it ready to copy-paste, as if it would negate the "IF YOU'RE TRYING TO BRING UP THE OLD COVENANT IN THIS SITUATION."

So now you're either a liar (looking more likely, how embarrassing for you), you're too lazy to read an entire sentence, or you're too dumb to comprehend what 'old covenant' means.

Anonymous BGS July 01, 2015 12:22 PM  

But we've already established that folks here don't understand the concept of consent.

"If you where a horse my love I wouldn't say neigh" the hugo award winning story of Tom Joad's understanding of consent.

I am on the council of a church that is part of a mainline Christian denomination.

My money was on the Temple of the Bacon Eating Grindr Rabi.

all we have to do is move the age of consent down to say... 4... and then it won't be pedophelia anymore!!!

Lena Dunham says 3...days

Blogger Jim July 01, 2015 12:23 PM  

or you're too dumb to comprehend what 'old covenant' means.

Nah. With today's educational standards, it's too much to expect a non-Christian to understand that term.

Anonymous Tigger July 01, 2015 12:23 PM  

"Should we begin stoning rebellious children while we're at it?"

Sure. Just remember some guy said: "He without sin can cast the first stone."

You are stupid as fuck. Does Soros really pay you to write this shit?

Blogger aut0062matthew July 01, 2015 12:24 PM  

Rabbi B. No, this particular liar and advocate for homosexuality does not appear to be Tad.

Anonymous Tigger July 01, 2015 12:25 PM  

Tom's entertainment value here has gone down faster than Tom at a glory-hole. Boring and predictable.

Blogger Stephen Ward July 01, 2015 12:26 PM  

@Krul

The text does indeed refer to children still under their father's authority, not to children who have left to form their own family units. v18 is the verse that limits application of the text to children who are consistently stubborn and rebellious and who have not changed after lengthy father-administered discipline. Fathers had authority to discipline their own children, so this is a text of last resort. The father is rescinding his authority over his child and delivering the child to public judgement. The text is meant to handle prodigal sons, not children who steal from the cookie jar.

Anonymous Wedding Cake July 01, 2015 12:26 PM  

Tom Choad refuses to marry Mormons to their 12-year-old cousins. He is a hateful bigot, a bully and needs to shut up.

Anonymous BGS July 01, 2015 12:27 PM  

council of a church that is part of a mainline Christian denomination.My money was on the Temple of the Bacon Eating Grindr Rabi.

Can you tell us which mainline Christian denomination you belong to. Its one of those details that if true you would have mentioned which

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer July 01, 2015 12:28 PM  

Give it up Joad, "stoning rebellious children" is what atheists say, even after you point them to the various parts of the New Testament stating that Christians do not need to follow the Old Testament Law.

If you are in a Christian church you might want to consider some Bible study classes. And by that I don't mean the tripe you find in Christian book stores about how to apply "Biblical Principals" to relieve your feelz badz.

Anonymous MendoScot July 01, 2015 12:29 PM  

Related: Milo starts in on our favourite blue-haired landwhale

Blogger Feather Blade July 01, 2015 12:32 PM  

But we've already established that folks here don't understand the concept of consent.

You're the one who supports a position whereby lack of consent on the part of the first party violates the rights of the second party.

Why do you support forcible marriage, Tom?

Blogger Student in Blue July 01, 2015 12:32 PM  

Nah. With today's educational standards, it's too much to expect a non-Christian to understand that term.

In which case he'd be a liar.

Blogger Jim July 01, 2015 12:34 PM  

In which case he'd be a liar.

He's an SJW, so we know that.

Blogger Chris Mallory July 01, 2015 12:40 PM  

"The First Amendment will protect you."

Right, just like it protected those restaurants who offered discounts to patrons who brought in church bulletins. Just like it protected businesses who put up signs saying customers must speak English. Just like it would protect a Realtor who wants to advertise a house as being in a "kid friendly neighborhood".

So, no protections at all.

Blogger Chiva July 01, 2015 12:40 PM  

Tom, you and your church can do whatever it wants. I don't care. The question you must ask yourself (and each of the members of your church also) is this; Who do I follow? What do I follow?

In the end each of us will be bending our knee to our Maker. Not as a congregation, but as individuals. Each of us will be judged on our own merits. Be careful of the path you are walking on. Pray and listen to the Holy Spirit.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer July 01, 2015 12:40 PM  

"The text is meant to handle prodigal sons, not children who steal from the cookie jar."

This is in a society where land ownership is so important that by law its supposed to go back to its original owners every fifty years even if it is sold and if you are going to sell land you have to let your relatives have the right of first refusal so it won't go out of your family. And your support in old age is dependent on your children.

Essentially this is so that wastrel children can be prevented from selling off land and neglecting and abusing their parents.

Anonymous FP July 01, 2015 12:40 PM  

"Or maybe it is about gay marriage? And liberty? About giving people the right to be left alone (and marry the person of their choice;"

I thought it was just about sodomy laws? Getting the government out of our homes and off our bodies? Then along came obamacare... the right to be left alone ship has sailed Tom.

Anonymous Quartermaster July 01, 2015 12:43 PM  

“ Bzzt. Wrong again, Hans. I am on the council of a church that is part of a mainline Christian denomination. You may not recognize it as Christian, but I could really care less.”

Any church that violates God’s standards is not a Christian Church. It’s not my call and God has already made the call. When you stand before Him and hear it directly from Him, it will far to late to abandon your heresy and sin.

“And I'd stack either of my pastors up against anyone on this board any day of the week.”

They’d lose against almost anyone on this board. It wouldn’t be close and they would be humiliated.

“I used the King James version. Seemed more your-all's speed.”

Read Acts chapter 15 sometime. Any major version will do, although I doubt you would understand the English used in the King James.

Your English usage is an atrocity. It’s either “you all,” or how it’s normally pronounced, “yawl.” Take your pick. Either would make you look far less moronic.

Blogger aut0062matthew July 01, 2015 12:46 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger aut0062matthew July 01, 2015 12:47 PM  

yawl

NO NO NO.

"y'all".

Blogger aut0062matthew July 01, 2015 12:48 PM  

The First Amendment will protect you.

It should be obvious now that the Constitution and the statutes of the United States of America protect only the who, not the whom.

This is why I say that our side must recognize what time it is.

It is Who/Whom Time.

Blogger Jack Ward July 01, 2015 12:49 PM  

@Tom Kratman [65]

Well said, Tom.
Any ballpark figure when the next in the 'Peace' series will be out?

Thanks

Blogger Stephen Ward July 01, 2015 12:50 PM  

btw, Edward Feser has an excellent article up about the same-sex marriage stuff:
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2015/06/marriage-and-matrix.html

Anonymous RedJack #22 July 01, 2015 12:55 PM  

Tom Joad

I belong to the LCMS. We have had lawyers already talking to us to prepare for lawsuits, losing the tax exempt status, and to be prepared to defend our position on marriage in the courts and the media. Vox posted what the current President of the LCMS (really, a bishop) said. The local Catholic parishes are getting ready to have a split over the same issue (you want to see some rather interesting examples of corporate law, look at an old Catholic diocese).

As of now, you can't be married in my church unless you are a member or a recent transfer from another LCMS parish of good standing. In the latter case, you are expected to wait until after the new member classes are done. However, the pastors and the parish lawyer are worried about someone walking in off the street, demanding to be married to their gay lover.

As to when societies were dominated by homosexuals, the ilk have mentioned some of the Greek city states. Another thing is the declining Roman Empire. I am reading a biography of Hardrian right now, and he was probably a lover of Trajan, kept numerous boys in a harem. Fast forward a few emperors and you have one dressed up as a cat getting pummeled by his wrestler lover in a parade.

Go read some of the older studies in classical history. They all state one of the reasons the Roman state fell, and the Greek power before them, was infanticide, homosexuals in power, and the increase in public spectical. Many of the contemporary accounts say the same thing.

Human behavior really doesn't change that much. Our current cycle isn't new, or even the worst. The path we are on has been trod by many civilizations. The only question is if we get a Caesar or a break up.

July 01, 2015 12:54 PM

Anonymous Tom Joad July 01, 2015 1:00 PM  

Give it up Joad, "stoning rebellious children" is what atheists say, even after you point them to the various parts of the New Testament stating that Christians do not need to follow the Old Testament Law.

But some Christians still point to Leviticus to show that homosexuality is an abomination. You can't have it both ways.

But that's really immaterial to this discussion. I was told my church should "follow what is in the Bible." Stoning rebellious children is in the Bible. Period. It may no longer apply to Christians, but it is in the Bible. (And if that doesn't apply, why does the notion that homosexuality is an abomination? Why rail against that, and not against eating lobster, wearing polyester or other Levitican sins?)

Anonymous Tom Joad July 01, 2015 1:02 PM  

Can you tell us which mainline Christian denomination you belong to. Its one of those details that if true you would have mentioned which

Lutheran. ELCA as you would correctly guess.

I was raised Catholic.

Blogger Salt July 01, 2015 1:04 PM  

Give it up Joad, "stoning rebellious children" is what atheists say, even after you point them to the various parts of the New Testament stating that Christians do not need to follow the Old Testament Law.

But some Christians still point to Leviticus to show that homosexuality is an abomination. You can't have it both ways.


Yes, you can. One is classification. The other is punishment. Does the distinction elude you?

Blogger Nate July 01, 2015 1:06 PM  

"Lutheran. ELCA as you would correctly guess."

***chuckle***

Point proven. You're not a member of a christian church. You are a member of a social club.

Anonymous Slow July 01, 2015 1:07 PM  

>"Does the distinction elude you?"

It eludes me. Could you elaborate?

Blogger jay c July 01, 2015 1:10 PM  

Should we begin stoning rebellious children while we're at it?

This is a dead giveaway of someone who doesn't know their Bible very well or at the very least doesn't care what it says.

Anonymous Tom Joad July 01, 2015 1:10 PM  

In the end each of us will be bending our knee to our Maker. Not as a congregation, but as individuals. Each of us will be judged on our own merits. Be careful of the path you are walking on. Pray and listen to the Holy Spirit.

We do pray and listen to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit tells me to love my neighbor as myself, and to love God above all else. The Holy Spirit has opened my eyes and helped me see that treating gays and lesbians humanely and helping them secure the same civil rights enjoyed by others is the Christian and right thing to do. The Holy Spirit has helped me see that those who spout hate in Jesus' name have a fundamental misunderstanding of His message.

Blogger Salt July 01, 2015 1:14 PM  

Well, Slow, it went from hate the sin, hate the sinner to hate the sin, love the sinner. As Jesus told the woman, you are forgiven, go and sin no more. He didn't tell her it was right to keep on sinning.

Anonymous Wedding Cake July 01, 2015 1:17 PM  

oh noes... prooftexting Tom Choad is prooftexting the Bible on ye.

Tom -- will you marry me to my cousin and sister or what, you hateful bigot?

Blogger Salt July 01, 2015 1:17 PM  

The Holy Spirit has opened my eyes and helped me see that treating gays and lesbians humanely and helping them secure the same civil rights enjoyed by others is the Christian and right thing to do.

Reading that, I'd say Jesus had to have gotten the adulteress and her paramour a room.

Blogger jay c July 01, 2015 1:19 PM  

...I should add that I believe what some call the "Jewish" law applies today, and I still say anyone who thinks the Bible has a commandment to stone rebellious children doesn't know the Bible.

Blogger Silent Cal July 01, 2015 1:19 PM  

Homosexuality is condemned in the New Testament as well as the old:

Romans 1

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

Revelation 21

And He said to me, “It is done![c] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,[d] and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving,[e] abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Anonymous Mace July 01, 2015 1:26 PM  

We do pray and listen to the Holy Spirit.

It is true that Tom and his "church" are communing with a spirit.

The spirit (and god) of this world.

Anonymous Porky July 01, 2015 1:27 PM  

But some Christians still point to Leviticus...

No, dumbass. 1 Cor 6:9. Jesus says they don't go to heaven. Period.

You're telling us the ELCA is seriously debating whether or not they should encourage folks to go to hell? And they're going to put it to a vote of the congregation??

If so, VD is right. Your church is dying and you don't even know it.



Anonymous Tom Joad July 01, 2015 1:28 PM  

...I should add that I believe what some call the "Jewish" law applies today, and I still say anyone who thinks the Bible has a commandment to stone rebellious children doesn't know the Bible.

I didn't say that. I said it was in the Bible. And it is. Man, you guys can be dense.

Blogger Jim July 01, 2015 1:28 PM  

The Holy Spirit has helped me see that those who spout hate in Jesus' name have a fundamental misunderstanding of His message.

What a hateful thing for you to say.

Blogger jay c July 01, 2015 1:31 PM  

...I should add that I believe what some call the "Jewish" law applies today, and I still say anyone who thinks the Bible has a commandment to stone rebellious children doesn't know the Bible.

I didn't say that. I said it was in the Bible. And it is. Man, you guys can be dense.


So is it in the Bible or not, Tom? You can't have it both ways.

Anonymous Tom Joad July 01, 2015 1:33 PM  

Reading that, I'd say Jesus had to have gotten the adulteress and her paramour a room.

But the adulteress was harming someone. Gays and lesbians in adult consensual relations* are harming no one — and there is no sin to forgive.

Okay, boys and girls. I'm out of time for the day. It's been fun.

*added for the many pedantics in the room

Blogger Jim July 01, 2015 1:36 PM  

Gays and lesbians in adult consensual relations* are harming no one — and there is no sin to forgive.

So you state that gays and lesbians are not people.

Hateful bigot.

Blogger Silent Cal July 01, 2015 1:37 PM  

Homosexuality is a sin.

Homosexuality is not love. It is sexual perversion.

Anonymous BGS July 01, 2015 1:39 PM  

Lutheran. ELCA as you would correctly guess.

Looks like Nate wins the pool. I guess he will use it to buy a new glock "for his wife"

Anonymous DNW July 01, 2015 1:40 PM  

As good liberals we ask: Truth? Who gives a damn?

Reason, shmeason .. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGvrh0ZgCp8&feature=youtu.be&t=314

What matters is what we want ....

Anonymous anonymous coward July 01, 2015 1:42 PM  

We do pray and listen to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit tells me to love my neighbor as myself, and to love God above all else. The Holy Spirit has opened my eyes and helped me see that treating gays and lesbians humanely and helping them secure the same civil rights enjoyed by others is the Christian and right thing to do. The Holy Spirit has helped me see that those who spout hate in Jesus' name have a fundamental misunderstanding of His message.

Two points:

a) For a so-called 'Christian' Church, there is a conspicuous lack of Christ anywhere in that statement of faith.

b) That statement of faith is unabashedly Gnostic, and it's amazing how little it has changed in 2000 years.

I only wish orthodox Christians were as steadfast in their beliefs as the Gnostics are. The Cathars preferred to die by the sword rather than relinquish homosexuality; and here we are, 1000 years later, watching them try to set the world on fire rather than budge on the issue of gay 'rights'.

Blogger Nate July 01, 2015 1:43 PM  

"yawl

NO NO NO.

"y'all"."

This is correct.

y'all.

the "ou" in you are contracted out and replaces wtih the apostrophe.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza July 01, 2015 1:43 PM  

Aside from remaining objective there is an ongoing problem with this group in that they dont want anyone to have anything ever. Whatever it is, its not allowed.

Blogger Josh July 01, 2015 1:45 PM  

shut up tad

Blogger Jim July 01, 2015 1:46 PM  

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." - Mathew 5:27-28

Christians know this. Tom Joad does not.

Blogger SciVo July 01, 2015 1:48 PM  

They have the reverse Midas Touch, where everything they set their hands to turns to shit.

One of my favorite bits of trivia is that there's actually a term for that in Spanish: manos de intestinos .

Anonymous patrick kelly July 01, 2015 1:48 PM  

Some worthwhile content aside, but the usual suspects should consider refraining from engaging in theological discussions or scriptural interpretation with tad-bots. Kinda' derails things to a well tread, muddy path......

unless it was good for you...then I wouldn't begrudge your entertainment....

Anonymous Stickwick July 01, 2015 1:51 PM  

The purpose of power is power. The left is not seeking to achieve a set of policy goals before kicking back and having a beer.

In my FB feed after Tim Hunt was harassed out of his job:

Now that we've unseated an apparently sexist Nobel laureate, can we do the same to a sitting U.S. Senator?

In my FB feed after the gay marriage decision:

While we're all congratulating ourselves, who is left? Who is still not legally the same as the rest of us? Who is second class by convention deep enough to act as law?
What's our next fight and what's our next battle plan?


This is not the end of an effort, kids. This is a beginning. There are still many legal allowances for discrimination in housing, employment and other areas. We have won a significant battle, but the war is far from over.

They will never, ever stop.

Blogger Salt July 01, 2015 1:51 PM  

unless it was good for you...then I wouldn't begrudge your entertainment....

It was momentarily good, like relieving oneself between beers.

Blogger Corvinus July 01, 2015 1:51 PM  

Gays and lesbians in adult consensual relations* are harming no one — and there is no sin to forgive.

They're harming themselves.

Blogger Nate July 01, 2015 1:51 PM  

'Looks like Nate wins the pool. I guess he will use it to buy a new glock "for his wife" '

Look god dammit... DrWho has carried a Glock 36 for over a decade. This is not new. Her first was a gift from her daddy... her second was from me.

The 10mm Glock 20 is my own. I wanted a 10mm and the choices are limited. outside of some 2000 dollar jobs I just don't think the 1911 is a good choice for that caliber... and that leaves what? cz75 clone... or a glock... I would've preferred the EAA Witness Hunter in 10mm... but the fact is it was 400 bucks more than the glock.

Blogger Mike Farnsworth July 01, 2015 1:54 PM  

But the adulteress was harming someone. Gays and lesbians in adult consensual relations* are harming no one — and there is no sin to forgive.

So, you're one of those. I suppose you run red lights and stop signs when you think nobody is around, because, nobody harmed right? (Until you hit someone you didn't see and they die, natch.)

Let's put it another way. You think that fornication isn't a sin either, right? Guys and gals (young or not) can go around consenting to screw each other and that's all fine and good even if they get pregnant because...consent.

How about suicide, I mean it's the person's own choice right? I suppose you'd be upset if they were a provider for their family and left them that way, but if you're ignoring the knock-on effects of homosexuality and same-sex marriage, why not ignore those of suicide too? Also, what if they *do* lower the consent age, what then? The tenuous and ever-shifting definition of consent is a bit of a problem, eh?

You clearly don't understand human sexuality. Try this on for size, if you are intelligent enough to grok it you will change your opinions:

http://www.scifiwright.com/2014/06/on-the-sexual-nature-of-man/

Anonymous same shit different day July 01, 2015 2:06 PM  

in which Tom Choad runs away from hate-facts.

Blogger Silent Cal July 01, 2015 2:08 PM  

This tad-bot is representing himself as a Christian. He is probably just a troll but it should pointed out when a purported Christian is making egregious errors.

Anonymous KBT July 01, 2015 2:10 PM  

"It is not about power. It is about religion, albeit a ersatz religion."

And that's the problem. We have Team Blue with their modern ideological religion, and Team Red with their classic old time religion.

The rest of us are caught in the middle just wanting to be left alone by all of the extremists.

Blogger Nate July 01, 2015 2:12 PM  

"Gays and lesbians in adult consensual relations* are harming no one — and there is no sin to forgive."

amazing. utilitarianism applied to christian theology.

/facepalm

Blogger Nate July 01, 2015 2:13 PM  

"The rest of us are caught in the middle just wanting to be left alone by all of the extremists."

You can have a strong church that is effecting people's behavior... or you can have a tyrannical government doing so.

There is no other option.

Big Rock Candy Mountain doesn't exist.

Blogger Rabbi B July 01, 2015 2:18 PM  

" . . utilitarianism applied to christian theology."

Truly, nothing new under the sun:

So the children of Israel departed from there at that time, every man to his tribe and family; they went out from there, every man to his inheritance.

In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes.

Anonymous Soga July 01, 2015 2:25 PM  

KBT: The problem with wanting everybody to leave everybody alone is that it effectively abolishes a policing institution. That means so-called "extremists" are free to do as they please.

Ultimately, there has to be someone that DOESN'T leave everybody alone.

So like Nate said, pick who you want to play police. I'd say Christians have a pretty good track record, considering we built the Western civilization that you know and love. We also standardized the notion that it's preferable to leave people alone to a certain degree.

Stalin, Mao Zedong, Che Guivera, Kim Jong-il, and company are examples of what happens when you let the other guys play police.

Blogger SciVo July 01, 2015 2:37 PM  

They have the reverse Midas Touch, where everything they set their hands to turns to shit.

One of my favorite bits of trivia is that there's actually a term for that in Spanish: manos de intestinos .

Blogger SciVo July 01, 2015 2:37 PM  

They have the reverse Midas Touch, where everything they set their hands to turns to shit.

One of my favorite bits of trivia is that there's actually a term for that in Spanish: manos de intestinos .

Blogger Chiva July 01, 2015 2:38 PM  

"Big Rock Candy Mountain doesn't exist."

Dammit.

Blogger SciVo July 01, 2015 2:42 PM  

Proposed fourth and fifth laws: SJWs have no sense of humor, and they are never satisfied.

Blogger Giraffe July 01, 2015 2:42 PM  

You can't un-suck a Glock, Nate.

Blogger Student in Blue July 01, 2015 2:43 PM  

Even though Tom Joad is gone for the day (maybe? You can't really take these people at their word it seems), it's noticeable that he never addressed the charges of being dumb, lazy, or a liar.

Logically it follows that one of them is true. I'm thinking all of them, however.

Anonymous john grady July 01, 2015 2:45 PM  

"No, because homosexuality is not equivalent to pedophilia."

Spend some time in DC around DuPont and you'll start seeing the equivalence.

Blogger Rabbi B July 01, 2015 2:49 PM  

" . . . it's noticeable that he never addressed the charges of being dumb, lazy, or a liar.'

You're dealing with a depraved mind which is incapable of retaining G-d in their knowledge.

Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was (II Tim. 3).

These people just continue to demonstrate to us again and again just how real the Bible is. It's actually quite encouraging.

Anonymous Rivercity Trader July 01, 2015 3:01 PM  

Oh, the irony!

Anonymous Porky July 01, 2015 3:24 PM  

ZZ Top's drummer owns a Glock 22, 23, and 27 with no pinky extender.... all in custom snake-skin cerakote. The case says "Zombie Hunter" on the outside.

It really does not get any gay-er.

Blogger Student in Blue July 01, 2015 3:34 PM  

@Rabbi B
You're dealing with a depraved mind which is incapable of retaining G-d in their knowledge.

I realize that (even though I may quibble on pedantics). I say a lot of these things out loud for the benefit of the anonymous, silent reader.

Blogger Jim July 01, 2015 3:35 PM  

Big Rock Candy Mountain doesn't exist.

Oh, it does. But they steal your kidney when you get there.

Blogger JDC July 01, 2015 3:37 PM  

From RedJack#22: They are so sure they are right (never mind the weight of history, and the examples of what happens when homosexuals dominate a society), they will not allow those who disagree with them to exist.

Twitter (@toddstarnes) If you thought the cultural purge over the Confederate flag was breathtaking -- wait until you see what LGBT activists do with Christians.

"Because now that the US government formally recognizes marriage equality as a fundamental right, it really shouldn’t skew the tax code so as to give millions of dollars in tax breaks to groups which remain steadfastly bigoted on the subject."

"Many people would consider such a move — abolishing all religious tax exemptions — to be too drastic. But at the very least it is entirely right and proper for the state to say to a church that if you want to thumb your nose at a fundamental right which is held by all Americans, then we are not going to privilege you with tax-free status."

Link

I thought they would wait at least a few months before they let up, but no. They smell blood in the water. They want to do away with Christians - they have made their position clear. The funny thing is...their efforts to destroy what they think Christianity is will only make it stronger.

Maybe God has determined it's time to burn off the chaff and preserve a truly pure bride for Christ Jesus.

Anonymous Donn #0114 July 01, 2015 3:40 PM  

What? No lemonaide spring or cigarette trees? No lakes of stew and whiskey too?

Blogger ScuzzaMan July 01, 2015 3:43 PM  

It is long past time churches gave up their tax free status. It is not a boon, it is a noose.

Indeed the whole point of it is to corral religious people into the pro-state enclosure.

It is utterly typical of the SJWs that they fail to recognise that what they advocate will set their enemies free of all restraints.

Blogger Jim July 01, 2015 3:43 PM  

Many people would consider such a move — abolishing all religious tax exemptions — to be too drastic

I've actually been advocating that for a while, so that A) the government has no means to threaten churches into shutting up when they speak in favor of someone without a (D) after their name and B) to force religious institutions to pay for the programs they campaign for.

Blogger JDC July 01, 2015 3:49 PM  

I've actually been advocating that for a while, so that A) the government has no means to threaten churches into shutting up when they speak in favor of someone without a

The problem here is that they won't stop with removing tax exempt status. The next step will be removing hate-speech from the community dialogue.

Blogger Jim July 01, 2015 3:58 PM  

The problem here is that they won't stop with removing tax exempt status. The next step will be removing hate-speech from the community dialogue.

True. But I was advocating for that since last millennium, before this would have been a problem.

Current events just demonstrate that I was correct.

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