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Thursday, August 27, 2015

Cheating with nonexistent women

Forget the data hack, this revelatory analysis about Ashley Madison should kill the entire online dating business. Such is the sexual desperation of men that I don't know it will, but it absolutely should:
When hacker group Impact Team released the Ashley Madison data, they asserted that “thousands” of the women’s profiles were fake. Later, this number got blown up in news stories that asserted “90-95%” of them were fake, though nobody put forth any evidence for such an enormous number. So I downloaded the data and analyzed it to find out how many actual women were using Ashley Madison, and who they were.

What I discovered was that the world of Ashley Madison was a far more dystopian place than anyone had realized. This isn’t a debauched wonderland of men cheating on their wives. It isn’t even a sadscape of 31 million men competing to attract those 5.5 million women in the database. Instead, it’s like a science fictional future where every woman on Earth is dead, and some Dilbert-like engineer has replaced them with badly-designed robots.

Those millions of Ashley Madison men were paying to hook up with women who appeared to have created profiles and then simply disappeared. Were they cobbled together by bots and bored admins, or just user debris? Whatever the answer, the more I examined those 5.5 million female profiles, the more obvious it became that none of them had ever talked to men on the site, or even used the site at all after creating a profile. Actually, scratch that. As I’ll explain below, there’s a good chance that about 12,000 of the profiles out of millions belonged to actual, real women who were active users of Ashley Madison....

It’s worth noting that those 12,108 women’s accounts may represent the only true number we’ve got for women who used the site. After all, paying to delete an account is a sure sign of activity, though of course it’s evidence of disengagement rather than the amorous engagement that Ashley Madison promised.

Overall, the picture is grim indeed. Out of 5.5 million female accounts, roughly zero percent had ever shown any kind of activity at all, after the day they were created.

The men’s accounts tell a story of lively engagement with the site, with over 20 million men hopefully looking at their inboxes, and over 10 million of them initiating chats. The women’s accounts show so little activity that they might as well not be there.

Sure, some of these inactive accounts were probably created by real, live women (or men pretending to be women) who were curious to see what the site was about. Some probably wanted to find their cheating husbands. Others were no doubt curious journalists like me. But they were still overwhelmingly inactive. They were not created by women wanting to hook up with married men. They were static profiles full of dead data, whose sole purpose was to make men think that millions of women were active on Ashley Madison.
Granted, it's hard to feel any sympathy for men whose primary interest was cheating on their wives, but this sort of scam is an unconscionable preying on the lonely and the desperate.

Labels:

99 Comments:

Blogger JP August 27, 2015 6:01 AM  

Doesn't anyone use hookers anymore?

Anonymous Steve August 27, 2015 6:09 AM  

Well, duh.

Women, unless they look like the back end of a bus, don't need to go on a purpose-built infidelity website to get extramarital sex.

They can get it from work colleagues, or go out to a pub or club, or - if they're lazy - Tinder.

Also, and I'm not condoning surreptitious shagging here, merely making an observation, men with even the slightest game don't need to fork out large sums of cash to find girls who are DTF.

The chumps who spent small fortunes on Ashley Madison would've got more value if they'd just hired hookers instead. And they wouldn't have had their details plastered all over the internet.

Blogger Stilicho #0066 August 27, 2015 6:15 AM  

How many of the 12,000 active women WERE hookers? More than a few I suspect. At about 2500/1, I expect they were exhausted hookers at that.

Blogger Cataline Sergius August 27, 2015 6:24 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger SciVo August 27, 2015 6:59 AM  

Cataline Sergius @4:

I fixed your link.

Blogger Cataline Sergius August 27, 2015 7:18 AM  

@5

Oops my bad. Repost.

Forget the data hack, this revelatory analysis about Ashley Madison should kill the entire online dating business. Such is the sexual desperation of men that I don't know it will, but it absolutely should:

This is really more of an exception that tests the rule. Tinder, Happn, Hinge and to a lesser extent OkCupid, do get good results but only...and I really must stress this...only if you are a young Alpha with tight Text Game.

Vanity Fair recently did a big article on Tinder and the Tinderellas, called Tinder and the Dawn of the “Dating Apocalypse” which I just made fun of.

Here is the thing. The dating apps are effective but only for the top 15% of the younger male population. Young Alphas and Sigmas who can do text game.

Ashley Madison, I gather wasn't an app. It was more of dating service but one geared towards males that would all get the Big Left Swipe. Prime example, Josh "Dad Bod" Duggar.

The successful dating apps are the ones all geared toward instant female emotional gratification and affirmation through attention being paid to them.

Its interesting stuff.

But it only works for guy if he looks good with his shirt off.

Anonymous Whitey McWhite August 27, 2015 7:24 AM  

It's not surprising that a business run by the usual suspects and built on corruption and the exploitation of the desperate is dishonest.

Anonymous Giuseppe The Kurgan August 27, 2015 7:40 AM  

Well, sounds aboutbright for Ashley Madison, and makes sense, but with regard to other online dating services they always worked just fine for me, and it certainly was more time efficient than hitting bars and clubs, which is not my thing anyway.

And I'm sure not 'young' either.

Anonymous PhillipGeorge©2015 August 27, 2015 7:44 AM  

How much money did EHar"money" pay into the production of "the secret life of Walter Mitty" to get that much exposure?

Vox, this is where you are a stand out journalist/ commentator. This story required unraveling and you've nailed it to a T.

The sexual revolution ended with barren childless women surrounded by cats doing profiles they'd only dream of acting on, being used by big commerce to sustain fairy tales for the other half of disenfranchised humanity?
There's never been a prophylactic like equality.

100 odd years ago a sexually repressed woman might have been married at 16 and having her 14th child at age thirty. All that coitus for God King and Country.

But the modernists have to scream repressing.

tag this to 'dance studio' and "post modernist pimping in progressive dystopia"

Blogger Cataline Sergius August 27, 2015 7:45 AM  

@8

@Giuseppe The Kurgan

That is interestingly, the other side of the coin. The Gen X male Is in demand again.

Blogger Sherwood family August 27, 2015 7:46 AM  

The whole thing is kind of a pathetic spectacle. First, you have 20 million men lurking around on line looking for something they do not think they are able to find at home. That is already a very sad commentary. How many of these guys were just irrepressible horndogs whose wives could not keep up with them and how many were lonely guys looking for sexual fulfillment that they were not able to find with a wife that they went to the trouble to marry? In either case you have sad individuals. Sad because their sexual life is out of control and they are engaged in behaviors that are guaranteed to make things worse or because that same sexual life is so otherwise nonexistent that they are driven by desperation to try something like this rather than have conjugal relations with their wife. Second, that a "cheating" site even exists and has this much traffic is an indictment on our society overall. Third, that some much of what went on was apparently a scam as well just makes the whole thing that much more pathetic. The cure for much of this (or at least something helpful) is Game. Either the men involved improve the situation in their own home or they at least do not have to use a scam website to find the companionship they are looking for. In either case it is likely to be an improvement over what is already happening. Note, that in no way do I condone or encourage someone to cheat on their wife in any way shape or form.

Anonymous GunShowTrash August 27, 2015 7:47 AM  

1. Montarize loneliness and desperation.
2. Sell it as casual guilt-free sex.
3. Watch continued decline of Western culture.
4. Profit.

Blogger Cataline Sergius August 27, 2015 7:51 AM  

@8

@Giuseppe The Kurgan

I didn't have time to make fun of everything in the article. Here is a prime bit I had to leave out.


“Guys view everything as a competition,” he elaborates with his deep, reassuring voice. “Who’s slept with the best, hottest girls?” With these dating apps, he says, “you’re always sort of prowling. You could talk to two or three girls at a bar and pick the best one, or you can swipe a couple hundred people a day—the sample size is so much larger. It’s setting up two or three Tinder dates a week and, chances are, sleeping with all of them, so you could rack up 100 girls you’ve slept with in a year.”

He says that he himself has slept with five different women he met on Tinder—“Tinderellas,” the guys call them—in the last eight days. Dan and Marty, also Alex’s roommates in a shiny high-rise apartment building near Wall Street, can vouch for that. In fact, they can remember whom Alex has slept with in the past week more readily than he can.

“Brittany, Morgan, Amber,” Marty says, counting on his fingers. “Oh, and the Russian—Ukrainian?”

“Ukrainian,” Alex confirms. “She works at—” He says the name of a high-end art auction house. Asked what these women are like, he shrugs. “I could offer a résumé, but that’s about it … Works at J. Crew; senior at Parsons; junior at Pace; works in finance … ”

“We don’t know what the girls are like,” Marty says.

“And they don’t know us,” says Alex.

Blogger Zaklog the Great August 27, 2015 7:53 AM  

I doubt these results are applicable to other dating websites & here's my reason: EHarmony is talked about as being the only dating website with more women than men. Why? Because it is explicitly geared towards long-term relationships. A site whose purpose is…almost the exact opposite? Yeah, makes sense they'd have opposite results.

Blogger Sherwood family August 27, 2015 7:55 AM  

PhilipGeorge, you nailed it. This is a result of the sexual revolution telling everyone that the grass was going to be perpetually greener on the other side rather than helping people take on the responsibilities of adulthood. If you want to have a healthy sex life as an older person (or as healthy as you can) then getting married as a younger person to someone who loves you is about as good a guarantee as you have. Expecting, especially as a woman, to find someone who is interesting, intelligent, and anxious to make love to you, after you've passed your sell-by date is wishful thinking.

Blogger Tim Hansen August 27, 2015 8:08 AM  

Cheating on their wives? That's nonsense. I'll bet the majority of them are single desperate males. As for those 12,000 women, most of them are either prostitutes or have too high expectations. In my country we had something similar, and the media kept lying in the same way is it lied about the puppies and the Hugo Awards. They made it look like all the men registered there were married men buying sex, which was not the case even if it is true that almost all the real women there looking for men were simply prostitutes and the rest non-existent. But 90% of the ads were made by men, both single and in relationships, looking for women, the rest were singles looking for couples or vice versa, men looking for men, women looking for women, and as mentioned prostitutes offering their services. Of course media made it look like it was exclusively about the latter, women selling sex to men in relationships (which was actually legal till relatively recently).

Anonymous NorthernHamlet August 27, 2015 8:09 AM  

Zaklog,

Apply the inverse: there are no men on Eharmony.

I'd be curious to see their numbers, as I've never known a man to use that of Match. Tinder is the only one I've heard guys and girls both talk about it... And frankly, I think it's a little weird to use an app for local sex as if the local club or bar doesn't work.

OpenID genericviews August 27, 2015 8:09 AM  

With all those .FBI, .GOV, and .DOJ domains represented there, I am curious why this hasn't been taken down yet for wire fraud. Or why there are no state AG's in the least bit interested in their citizens being defrauded. And no consumer protection watchdogs care about this.

It must not fit anyone's political agenda, ax to grind, or personal enrichment to bother.

Blogger Robert What? August 27, 2015 8:12 AM  

I never signed up for AM but I seriously considered it several times. (I'm now certainly glad I didn't.) So maybe I fit the profile of the typical male AM user. I have had no intimacy at home for many years. I suspect a lot of the male AM members were also in duty-bound, sexless marriages, like me. Questions?

Blogger dc.sunsets August 27, 2015 8:15 AM  

Everything in pop culture "informs" people that happiness is found everywhere BUT in a happy marriage. We're endlessly propagandized that marriage kills sex, having kids kills happiness, and basically once you're no longer single, your life is over.

Those too stupid to see past this BS narrative then indulge in self-fulfilling prophesies by investing NOTHING in their marriages (both sides), producing a fertile environment to sell antidepressants, counseling services, divorce services and all the downstream profit centers that employ tens of millions of (equally unhappy) people.

It should be patently obvious that happily married people have the most robust sex lives, have the most shared happiness and have the greatest expectation of continued happiness. Perhaps the most important activity of anyone's life should be investing of themselves in nurturing their marriage in partnership.

This is why I don't understand "game." If the game is to enter into a dance of mutual deception, how on Earth is that expected to yield partnership? I'm left suspecting that the masses of people to whom game matters are simply lesser mortals whose lives and antics are irrelevant to me other than as Monkey-Island level entertainment.

Blogger VFM bot #188 August 27, 2015 8:19 AM  

Some of the chortling over Ashley Madison is bleeding over into disparaging the millions of people, young and old, who are finding real love online. Don't confuse the two. Millions of people are meeting this way and settling down to a life together. I can think of several in my own family, and many more friends and acquaintences beyond that. (Me? I found mine the old-fashioned way, at work, but that was 35 years ago.)

Anonymous Steve, The Dark Ninja of Mockery August 27, 2015 8:25 AM  

Robert - it's a trap buddy.

I bet you anything the 4 actual women using AM look like Arnold Schwarzenneger in Total Recall.

Blogger Sherwood family August 27, 2015 8:28 AM  

DC. Sunsets, but Game is not about mutual deception, or at least it need not be. It is not a series of pick up artist techniques as much as it is a way of understanding the relationship and societal implications of the social-sexual hierarchy. Once it is understood as a framework, it can be used in the same way that understanding gravity, lift, and thrust allows one to fly.

There is no deception in flight, only an understanding of principals. Game (or the Red Pill, whichever one prefers) fit the pieces together for me of why women (in this case my wife) acted the way that she did. Once I understood the biological basis for her behavior and the way it manifested itself both toward me and socially it became knowledge I could use to improve our relationship. And it has improved. It was never bad but has gotten much better as a result.

It also turned a light on for her in helping her understand her own motivations.

If there is one thing I have learned both from marriage and from the Red Pill, it is that women create elaborate explanations for their own behaviors which they really do not understand. They do not know why they do some things. They do them and then try to explain why they did but the explanations tend not to add up, even for the woman explaining. No doubt there are women who have more logically incisive minds but I do not think it is the majority.

Understanding the social and biological reasoning that is going on in the background is a benefit. It is not an all explanatory theory, but Game goes a long way of making sense of otherwise confusing behaviors.

Blogger dc.sunsets August 27, 2015 8:29 AM  

As always, we live in a sea of deception. Only those who choose to see past the curtain, and who discern for themselves how to seek and achieve happiness, have any hope of finding and maintaining it.

The rest are doomed to wander from mirage to mirage like pinballs in a pinball machine, ever acted upon but never acting themselves, monkeys forever pressing a button to tickle the electrodes implanted in their brains even as they are starved of real joy.

No wonder so few people ever grow up now, and so many are chronically depressed.

Anonymous Mike M. August 27, 2015 8:32 AM  

EHarmony is, in my experience, the same sort of con game. They might claim a surplus of women, but none of them actually respond to attempts to contact them. I had obscenely bad performance from them.

Anonymous Steve August 27, 2015 8:33 AM  

This is why I don't understand "game." If the game is to enter into a dance of mutual deception

It's not. Game's just a toolkit you can use to improve your chances with women and keep them happy. The most basic and important concepts are stuff like "don't be boring", "don't be needy", "be more masculine", etc.

It's about fun, not deception. The clue's in the name.

Anonymous joe doakes August 27, 2015 8:34 AM  

It reminds me of the time-share condo I didn't buy. You don't own a specific unit, you get a membership that allows you to use any unit, when it's available. But there are never any units available and the membership is non-refundable.

Selling the dream - whatever the dream might be.

Blogger Sherwood family August 27, 2015 8:38 AM  

D.C. Sunsets, things to act and things to be acted upon, hmm? I agree that we must learn from our own experience. Yet, there is wisdom to be gained from the experiences of others. Real joy, as you say, is not in mere sensation, yet real joy is not divorced from it either. Joy can be pursued and lead to more joy because it enjoins us to become more than we are. Pleasure, on the other hand, can only be enjoyed as a byproduct of some other activity. Pleasure pursued for its own sake always recedes from our grasp in direct proportion to the fervor with which it is pursued.

Blogger dc.sunsets August 27, 2015 8:46 AM  

@23 Sherwood,
I've lived long enough to know that male-female behaviors occur on a spectrum. Some men exhibit a mix of behaviors that is closer to the female side and some women exhibit a mix of behaviors that is closer to the male side. Some men like fashionable clothes, some women could not care less about back-stabby female social games.

I married a pretty, petite young lady who exhibited sweet femininity without the back-stabby cattiness common to women. I was lucky indeed.

People are born with a set personality. They get better at being who they really are as time passes. The only girls worth courting are those who are low in the cattiness quotient, and intelligent enough to join their husbands in analyzing their lives and world rationally. Those women programmed to rule men, who cannot conform to reason (and they appear to be legion) are like ill-tempered dogs. Neither should reproduce. The same applies to men; only men who can properly channel their appetites and aggression, and who are intelligent enough to reason and plan are marriageable. All others shouldn't reproduce either (but in our dysgenic times, this is a pipe dream.)

Husbands and wives help each other along the self-improvement spectrum on Happiness Path. Or they don't.

Anonymous Athor Pel August 27, 2015 8:46 AM  

"20. dc.sunsets August 27, 2015 8:15 AM
...
This is why I don't understand "game." If the game is to enter into a dance of mutual deception, how on Earth is that expected to yield partnership? I'm left suspecting that the masses of people to whom game matters are simply lesser mortals whose lives and antics are irrelevant to me other than as Monkey-Island level entertainment."



Your conception of what a marriage should be, happy, is spot on. But you got no idea what game is.

"mutual deception" is speaking of intent, of purpose. Game is a set of tools, the user decides the intent, the purpose.

If you have a happy marriage yourself you likely use game all the time and don't even know it.

Anonymous Athor Pel August 27, 2015 8:56 AM  

"25. Mike M. August 27, 2015 8:32 AM
EHarmony is, in my experience, the same sort of con game. They might claim a surplus of women, but none of them actually respond to attempts to contact them. I had obscenely bad performance from them."



I did the free trial for EHarmony several years ago. I had a different problem with it.

I talked to several women. With the Christians, as we talked I mentioned Ephesians chapter 5. None of them agreed with the verses having to do with marriage. Instant disqualifier.

Many women want to get married, very few want to be a wife.

Anonymous RedJack #22 August 27, 2015 8:58 AM  

Back in the day, I did try online dating when I moved into a new area. Found a few decent ones, and a lot of hookers.

This doesn't surprise me at all. What surprises me is the amount of men taken in by it. There must have been something that was returning on the investment somewhere.

Blogger dc.sunsets August 27, 2015 8:59 AM  

Sherwood, the older I get, the less I think there was ever anything to learn from others, except to watch them and learn what NOT to do.

My acquaintances who are divorced uniformly entered their marriages with astonishingly obvious delusions about their wives. In both cases the women they married were bat-guano crazy but I guess in the men's eyes all they could see was the sparkle. One of them openly said he never expected such a hot girl on his arm (she was an 8/10 on the hot/crazy meter.)

If one is far enough off the population mean, there's less to learn from those clustering it. Perhaps my experience is uncommon because of this; I was occasionally referred to as "Mr. Spock" in high school not because I was a Trekkie.

PS: Two of my sons found very nice girls on eHarmony. Both are happily married by all appearances, and in both cases the girls came from intact families and by most measures "married up." I think the spectrum of girls is like girl intelligence: the upper 3rd or 4th of the distribution can be molded into good wives if they are willing.

Finding good people today is, however, truly needle-in-a-haystack.

Blogger ScuzzaMan August 27, 2015 9:02 AM  

Robert L Kocher, the sadly-deceased grand old curmudgeon of American psychotherapy, wrote a fantastic article called "Understanding Sex". I cannot recommend it highly enough but I can no longer find it online. Email me if you're interested.

Blogger Sherwood family August 27, 2015 9:05 AM  

Sunset, do you believe individual personalities are unable to be changed for the better?

Blogger Cail Corishev August 27, 2015 9:07 AM  

This is why I don't understand "game." If the game is to enter into a dance of mutual deception

When I learned Game, I stopped deceiving myself about how women worked and what they wanted. I also became much more honest with myself and with them about my intentions. I also began to refuse to play along with their deceptions. Looks like less deception all around to me.

Anonymous Man August 27, 2015 9:09 AM  

Those men deserve the fallout, but Ashley Madison deserves to be sued out of existence.

Anonymous Geoff August 27, 2015 9:12 AM  

The main problem with online dating is that the best women are bombarded by almost every guy on the site. The odds of attracting a quality woman are much higher in real life.

Blogger Cail Corishev August 27, 2015 9:14 AM  

I married a pretty, petite young lady who exhibited sweet femininity without the back-stabby cattiness common to women. I was lucky indeed.

Don't feel bad about not understanding Game, then. Some guys are just naturals, or damn lucky, and it seems like men who have never needed Game have a hard time getting it. It's like a blind spot, or a muscle that atrophied away to nothing long ago because it was never used.

Blogger ScuzzaMan August 27, 2015 9:14 AM  

Duh. Googled again with slighkty different string and there it is.

http://mycroft1.proboards.com/thread/149/robert-kocher-understanding

Blogger dc.sunsets August 27, 2015 9:16 AM  

If you have a happy marriage yourself you likely use game all the time and don't even know it.

I have wondered if this might be the case. None of the girly-man stuff ever made sense to me (I think a man who doesn't study violence, how to avoid it and how to bring hell to the fight if forced is no man at all) but I also concurred with Heinlein's quote that precedes "...specialization is for insects." I was an involved father, and not just when time for some sport ...which they usually were not (my sons were all on Math Team when their peers were having the best time of their lives as jocks in high school.) My sons are all married, with well-paid STEM field jobs, own homes in nice neighborhoods and have added two granddaughters to my growing clan. Those jocks and their cheerleader gfs? In one case I know of, alcoholism, divorce and detritus.

As a signal, no man should be without guns, and no wife should ever object to it (unless he's a moron when it comes to safe handling, in which case she's got a legitimate beef and should run, not walk, away.)

If I criticize "game," it is because so much of the emphasis seems to be on PUA stuff. Perhaps it's simply an artifact; others hail Donald Trump as an ultimate alpha but all I see are divorces, absentee fatherhood driven by celebrity-level business focus and all the behind-the-scenes battles these produce. If that's "being alpha," then I'm happy to be something else. It simply looks to me to be another brick in the wall of pop culture selling toxic alternatives to the path on which I found and enjoy happiness.

Anonymous Viking August 27, 2015 9:16 AM  

So, roughly 0%. impressive. Of course it is a very different thing, but it does make you wonder also about the whole 50% of gamers are girls thing.

Blogger ScuzzaMan August 27, 2015 9:23 AM  

Alphas are as likely to be arseholes as any other type. There is no necessary correlation between personality type and character.

Anonymous Steve, The Dark Ninja of Mockery August 27, 2015 9:28 AM  

ScuzzaMan - There is no necessary correlation between personality type and character.

I dunno bout that.

Phil Sandifer gammasperg types are usually peevish and annoying.

Blogger dc.sunsets August 27, 2015 9:30 AM  

I totally understand how grasping "game" helps a man avoid massive self-deception and self-destruction.

Frankly, I didn't realize just how toxic are most women until I was into my 50's. Through discussions with my wife, the games (especially how they intuitively know how to flatter your ego to manipulate you) finally became apparent. Neither my wife nor I have much regard for the typical woman.

Early experiences went through a complete re-ordering. Memories of events recalled as one thing suddenly became the opposite. As a big, strong man, it's initially disorienting to see how weak in the face of certain kinds of manipulation one may be. In the last 20 years I'd gotten better at seeing it, but now? Oh boy.

Forewarned is forearmed. I now see that where I am strongest (in my own mind) is my Achilles Heel. No more.

Anonymous DavidKathome August 27, 2015 9:40 AM  

I was reading an article yesterday about a guy whose wife did go onto Ashley Madison and cheated on him with at least six other guys. He discovered all this and divorced her a year ago. The poor bastard, his wife was practically the only woman there who was real.

Blogger Cail Corishev August 27, 2015 9:46 AM  

The main problem with online dating is that the best women are bombarded by almost every guy on the site.

It's much worse than that. I've watched over the shoulder of an average-looking-at-best, 30-something woman with 5 kids and other red flags, as she paged through numerous messages that she'd gotten in the past week or so. Everything from long flowery letters full of compliments to dick pics. She easily got more messages in a week than I got in a year. And that was before social media was a big thing. Now she could carry around a phone and get the daily, constant validation of "I want you" messages coming through at any time.

The "best" women mostly aren't on there; but if they are, they get so many messages that they simply trash most of them. They're like an employer with a great job to fill and 50 resumes coming in every day -- he's still more likely to give the job to someone he knows.

Anonymous The Obvious August 27, 2015 9:50 AM  

@34

Found it.

And more:

The Analytic Papers

Anonymous Nathan August 27, 2015 9:55 AM  

They found Biddle and Chu on the list. Anyone think to check for Tor?

Anonymous Clay August 27, 2015 9:59 AM  

I thought I smelled a skunk when this story first broke.

Blogger njartist August 27, 2015 10:01 AM  

Seems to me that Ashley Madison was the hack.

Blogger Cataline Sergius August 27, 2015 10:05 AM  

An app has to be geared toward female validation or it's simply not going to sell.

Ashley Madison appears to have had a different model altogether. AM it would appear, spent a lot of it's capital advertising on porn sites. It was trying to attract losers.

Anonymous BigGaySteve August 27, 2015 10:07 AM  

At about 2500/1, I expect they were exhausted hookers at that

One woman sued AM for carpal tunnel after writing too many fake profiles. I always figured it was a hooker site.

Some men like fashionable clothes, some women could not care less about back-stabby female social games.

With a low likelihood of them being straight, so it doesn't really help you.

women...who cannot conform to reason ... are like ill-tempered dogs. Neither should reproduce

That's why the left is importing the 3rd world, not enough of their own are breeding.

Many women want to get married, very few want to be a wife.

Hence all the lesbian domestic violence.

do you believe individual personalities are unable to be changed for the better?
I would say not without much pain.

Blogger Rabbi B August 27, 2015 10:11 AM  

Tingle and More Tingle

Anonymous Geoff August 27, 2015 10:15 AM  

Cail @47

Nods. I learned fast that it was a waste of time to send out messages. It was much more efficient to just sit back and let them come to me.

And they did. I've been told I'm photogenic. Of course, they really mean I look worse in person.

Blogger Cataline Sergius August 27, 2015 10:17 AM  

They found Biddle and Chu on the list. Anyone think to check for Tor?

I'm in. What is PNHs Email account?

Or Scalzi's?

Anonymous p-dawg August 27, 2015 10:21 AM  

These guys should just start doing drugs. At least then, they'll get *some* payoff for their money.

Anonymous DeepThought August 27, 2015 10:32 AM  

@Zaklog the Great -

After my divorce, I used EHarmony and had a 6-10 emails a week. I also would send out 10-20 emails to the girls I was interested in. I can definitely say, these women are for real and EHarmony is for real. But my success mainly came from face to face meetings. I was fit, full set of hair, ruggedly handsome with plenty of scars from past adventures, and an ability to listen while not saying much. I believe the best approach to dating for men post divorce is get in shape(you will look better than 90% of other men), dress well, and utilize both online and face to face conversations.


The ironic thing, is that I ended up finding my future wife walking in the hallways of a hospital as I waited for my Father's kidney stone procedure to finish. She walked by a couple of times and on the third or fourth walk through I noticed she was glancing my way and I just walked up to her and asked her out. Walked out with her number and the rest is history.

Blogger Badmojo August 27, 2015 10:33 AM  

@6

Cataline Sergius, that was a fantastic article. Thanks!

Blogger dc.sunsets August 27, 2015 10:36 AM  

@BigGaySteve,

With three sons, I see the distribution of male/female prototypes (even among males) easily, and the three are by all appearances among the 99% of males who solidly prefer the ladies.

I can wear a pink dress shirt and one of my favorite movies is a Disney musical cartoon, but then I also have nothing to prove to the outside world. It's unlikely I'd be mistaken for BigGayDc.Sunsets, even if I have had my share of propositions from the other side. (Bemused, not flattered.)

Humans are social creatures; most live their lives oriented to the outside, seeking continuous status and validation from others. A few live lives internally focused, without being socially dysfunctional in the least. The latter, because they are the ones who primarily hold the keys to their own happiness, tend to be happier I think.

The latter also enjoy hewing closest to the role of outside observer to the Clown Parade that passes by any who pull up a lawn chair, sit down and watch. Past, present and future....endless entertainment.

Anonymous KBT August 27, 2015 10:41 AM  

Sites like eros.com are at least honest about what they do- enabling service business transactions.

Blogger Dexter August 27, 2015 10:46 AM  

This is why I don't understand "game." If the game is to enter into a dance of mutual deception

Game is what used to be known as "being masculine".

In the old days, young men didn't need to learn this. But today, there is an entire system devoted to feminizing them, starting in childhood, and once they hit puberty many of them need to un-learn all the bullshit that teachers and female relatives and the media have indoctrinated them with.

Blogger Robert What? August 27, 2015 10:48 AM  

Heh. Yes apparently AM was a sausage-fest to the max.

Blogger dc.sunsets August 27, 2015 10:49 AM  

I believe the best approach to dating for men post divorce is get in shape(you will look better than 90% of other men), dress well, and utilize both online and face to face conversations.

If one is married and out of shape, you're already breaking the first rule of life: CSI (continuous self-improvement.) The fact that so many men and women let themselves go to pot after a few years of marriage proves they Just Don't Get It. The brass ring doesn't come to the door via UPS.

Anonymous praetorian August 27, 2015 10:54 AM  

Here is the thing. The dating apps are effective but only for the top 15% of the younger male population. Young Alphas and Sigmas who can do text game.

Correct. It's a bit of a shame that Game Inc. can't be honest about this (partly due to bad-feels, partly due to marketing.)

The reality is that negs and approaches and all the rest of it matter much less than, say, your height. A non-celeb can bump himself up a half-level, maybe a full level if he's gotten fat, but that's a lot of work and probably not going to move the needle too much if you are less than mid-beta already. Alpha-focus has become all-consuming with women, with the attendant alpha-widowhood.

Ugly, but here we are.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents August 27, 2015 10:54 AM  

From the Gizmodo article:
But the second most popular IP address, found in 80,805 profiles, was a different story. This IP address, 127.0.0.1, is well-known to anyone who works with computer systems as a loopback interface. To the rest of us, it’s known simply as “home,” your local computer. Any account with that IP address was likely created on a “home” computer at Ashley Madison. Interestingly, 68,709 of the profiles created with that IP address were female, and the remaining 12,000 were either male or had nothing in the gender field.

Lazy bastards. "This way to the egress", indeed.

Deep in the comments someone posted:

For the record, this is the case with most (if not all) of the paid dating sites. I know, because I used to make money writing them. I wrote profiles for five or six sites – the biggest customers were two religion based ones, one for seniors and one for gay men, too. I was paid to write the profile, upload a photo (usually stock photos, although they didn’t really care), and then after those profiles went live they were never logged into again. At one time the gig of creating these was listed as a job on Amazon Turk, this would have been all the way back in 2010-2011.

So, which state attorney general will bravely step up to sue the bastards on behalf of cheated citizens, I wonder? Too early in the day for popcorn...

Anonymous Anonymous August 27, 2015 10:56 AM  

Those horny guys should set up a fake profile, and troll for REAL women on Facebook!

OpenID corvinus333 August 27, 2015 10:57 AM  

Similar article here:

Ashley Madison was a bunch of dudes talking to each other, data analysis suggests

Blogger Polynices August 27, 2015 11:08 AM  

One element I haven't seen mentioned is that the way the Ashley Madison site was designed, you had to create a free account to see ANYTHING past the opening screen. When I first heard about it I assumed it was a pathetic scam (and a huge invitation to be blackmailed) but I had to see for myself. So I created a free account. Didn't actually create a profile beyond the minimum. Used my normal email account because, why not?, I'm not planning on cheating. If I was going to cheat I'm not stupid, I'd use a completely anonymous email address that I don't use for anything else and that can't be linked to me (except by the NSA and court orders).

The point of the above is that my email address is in those databases and I am counted as a "user" of the site but I never actually used the site and never paid them anything. I have to wonder how many other supposed users were in this category.

Blogger Feather Blade August 27, 2015 11:14 AM  

@68: Thus proving, once again, that there are no women on the Internet. ^_^

Anonymous hausfrau August 27, 2015 11:16 AM  

While I'm a little surprised the sex imbalance is so extreme, it would be surprising to me if there wasn't one. The thing about such a website is it leaves no wiggle room for women who feel any discomfort at all in having an affair. If they go to a bar and have a few drinks before going home with someone they can say "it just happened". They got caught up in the moment or the relationship "just happened". If they go to Ashley Madison then they have to completely own their actions. I don't think that works well for most women who stray from committed relationships.

Anonymous Donn #0114 August 27, 2015 11:28 AM  

hausfrau @71 only too true. She can't even tell herself she was looking for Mr Right or trying to find a long term relationship. AM is simply sport sex and apparently that is too raw for women to admit to even if they are specifically looking for it.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents August 27, 2015 11:29 AM  

While I'm a little surprised the sex imbalance is so extreme, it would be surprising to me if there wasn't one

It appears the imbalance was more like a gazillion to one, with the vast majority of accounts labeled "female" simply fake. That's more like "fraud" than "imbalance".

If they go to a bar and have a few drinks before going home with someone they can say "it just happened". They got caught up in the moment or the relationship "just happened". If they go to Ashley Madison then they have to completely own their actions.

Yes, the whole business model is completely out of synch with the way women actually are. It's a business model either for lesbians, or created by men who are deluded about women's nature.

Or a fraudulent scheme intended to fleece men who were not likely to complain.

I don't think that works for women.

FIFY.

Anonymous Donn #0114 August 27, 2015 11:35 AM  

Paradigm @66 Egress? Ooh! I want to see the egress! How much?"

Anonymous Donn #0114 August 27, 2015 11:44 AM  

genericviews @18 Nobody's touched this for two reasons. First, most AGs probably don't know about it. It isn't even on their radar. Second, those who are aware probably have an AM account, dumbasses. Third, for those who are left knowing about it and who don't have an account they figure the dupes deluded themselves into it. Nobody alive ever said, "There's just too many women out there looking to score who can't find men."

If a woman wants anonymous sex and she doesn't live under a bridge she just needs to go to any bar, look on craigslist, yahoo 'whatever', google 'hangouts', go to the gym, grocery store and she'll be hit on.

Any man who hasn't internalized that is socially awkward. Eventually some AG might grab it but it will have to be someone who is squeaky clean and who gives a damn about men who want to sleep around on their wives. Not a large demographic.

Blogger Tommy Hass August 27, 2015 11:45 AM  

"The reality is that negs and approaches and all the rest of it matter much less than, say, your height."

*Eyeroll*

Blogger Dexter August 27, 2015 11:45 AM  

Hausfrau, do not underestimate the Power of the Hamster!

Women can rationalize anything.

"I just joined to look up my ex... to see if my husband was on it... to laugh at the losers... but then I met this incredible guy..."

Anonymous Giraffe August 27, 2015 12:04 PM  

It is a great scam. But I'll bet there are quite a few men that were on that site in the past that are now divorced and wouldn't mind being exposed by suing the shit out of them. So the hack was even better. Ashley Madison is done.

Anonymous hausfrau August 27, 2015 12:08 PM  

@77 Hausfrau, do not underestimate the Power of the Hamster!

Women can rationalize anything.


So true but I'm just using my own hamster to spell out how most women would feel about an explicitly affair oriented website. There are plenty of options out there that are less mission oriented, providing an easier fig leaf for the hamster.

Anonymous patrick kelly August 27, 2015 12:13 PM  

@17 " it's a little weird to use an app for local sex as if the local club or bar doesn't work."

I prefer grocery stores or local markets....I'm (IMAO) more alpha when I'm sober, I like to drink, proximity to alcohol and women at the same time doesn't necessarily help me...not that I'm out cruising for casual sex, but I do enjoy fun flirty conversations with hot women to brighten up my shopping experience....

Blogger ajw308 (#98) August 27, 2015 12:16 PM  

With all those .FBI, .GOV, and .DOJ domains represented there, I am curious why this hasn't been taken down yet for wire fraud.
One of the better known cat houses here in town made the mistake of taking credit cards. As soon as the transfers crossed state lines, the Feds raided the place and shut it down. A big deal was made about the black book with all the customers listed in it being taken as evidence. There was a lot of speculation as to who was sweating it's disclosure, but it never came to light. The common belief is someone is using the evidence to their benefit. There's a famous quote where the Madam who ran the place said her best week was always after the State Legislature let out and all the politicians returned to town. Or it hasn't been taken down cause there are Feds on the list and they just want it to go away.

Anonymous Porky August 27, 2015 12:18 PM  

You mean farmersonly.com isn't actually loaded with beautiful Daisy Duke look-alikes seeking to hook up with beer-bellied manure spreaders?

Blogger ajw308 (#98) August 27, 2015 12:19 PM  

If a woman wants anonymous sex and she doesn't live under a bridge she just needs to go to any bar, look on craigslist, yahoo 'whatever', google 'hangouts', go to the gym, grocery store and she'll be hit on.
Paging John Scalzi

Blogger kurt9 August 27, 2015 12:55 PM  

This debacle will kill all of the on-line dating sites (e.g. Match, Eharmony, etc.) in short order. Indeed, I've noticed the ads for these sites no longer appear on the television.

Blogger Wayne Earl August 27, 2015 1:14 PM  

Couple of points, and I have to tread very carefully here, let's just say that I was a party contractually involved for a very short time when the site was being birthed. That was several years ago, but the NDA is still in effect. I am not a part of the circus currently, and want no part of it.

I cannot comment on the frequency or percentage of bot accounts vs. human women accounts. It is known to be common practice across many dating sites, and serves the same need as "ladies night" does in a club - it gets the guys there. That being said, consider the following points, and make of them what you will.

1. Analee Newitz is THE original purple haired woman nerd "typist" (in the Roosh sense) in the tech industry, now writing for Gizmoto. So, a hard left purple haired SJW, and all that entails. She served as the role model for all the multicolored hair brigade. Keep this in mind when thinking about what kind of article she would write, what biases she may have, and most especially the level of data analytical skills that even the Ur Female Typist may or may not possess.

2. The article assumes the dataset the hackers made available is whole and complete. This is an absolutely foolish assumption. Would it not be a far greater story if the data thieves culled the majority of the women out of the data, so as to make the men look even more pathetic? The story has been about the men cheating, but given that it wasn't a gay dating site, something is likely missing here. Each sex had different targeting and marketing, the men paid for access, the women did not. The environment was contrived to be a secret one where people could Plot to have affairs - The women ultimately controlled this. Remember: for every affair, there was one man and one woman, statistically speaking.

The only conclusions one can make from that dataset is the conclusions the hackers who stole it wish us to make.

3. Do you really believe that the site programming reached a level of sophistication such that millions of men could be placated by AI and a few hundred people pretending to be women?

Anonymous Daniel H August 27, 2015 1:17 PM  

>>Overall, the picture is grim indeed. Out of 5.5 million female accounts, roughly zero percent had ever shown any kind of activity at all, after the day they were created.

This report ruins the degenerate left's day. They are flipping mad. They want so much for women to be debauched and marriage to be traduced. They have been living in such hope for decades, but human nature forces its will and the fact is most married women wish to remain so and are not interested in destroying their marriage with extramarital sex.

Anonymous Donn #0114 August 27, 2015 1:31 PM  

Kurt9 @84 My guess is that Match, Eharmony etc are all checking their databases for ways they could be hacked. My guess is that anything that is not specifically geared towards kinky and or anonymous sex will still do fine.

There's a sucker born every minute and hope springs eternal. The lonely guys will keep trying everything and women will keep doing what they want.

Blogger Wayne Earl August 27, 2015 1:39 PM  

One additional point. What you're also not going to see in any of the commentary is how the site actually operated, from the perspective of a male user. So here it is: - the women were the center of the universe, protected and kept anonymous, and from that position of security, they would initiate contact with men.

Does this description jibe well with your understanding of women?

I was early into my divorce from a BPD psycho when this gig came up. This money actually paid for my initial consultation with my divorce attorney. I was also early into my red pill transformation. I lived in a very small community in the East Bay Area, a town that is basically, a single road named after it from one end to the other, small enough where even today, you know much of what is going on. I thought I was cynical. I even signed up as a member.

I closed my account within two weeks. In that time, six wives of my neighbors all had contacted me through the site, four of their husbands were close friends to me. As angry as I was at the time at the world, just....no.

Anonymous Copperhead Joe August 27, 2015 6:50 PM  

@84 "This debacle will kill all of the on-line dating sites (e.g. Match, Eharmony, etc.) in short order. Indeed, I've noticed the ads for these sites no longer appear on the television."

Huh?
I've used Match very successfully in multiple states as a traveling consultant on and off since 2005 (I am 45 now). It is such a gold mine that I rarely bother to use any other approach. This story won't change that at all.
BTW I heartily laugh at anyone who tries to attach a stigma to it (not that you did that, just throwing that in).

Anonymous Godfrey August 27, 2015 9:28 PM  

Losers... blind self-deluded losers... any rational man would have known this to be the case. Only an idiot wouldn't realize that 99% of the subscribers of such a site are men. And a significant portion of them are probably transvestites.

Anonymous Godfrey August 27, 2015 9:35 PM  

@69 Blogger Polynices August 27, 2015 11:08 AM

"So I created a free account. Didn't actually create a profile beyond the minimum. Used my normal email account because, why not?, I'm not planning on cheating. If I was going to cheat I'm not stupid....The point of the above is that my email address is in those databases and I am counted as a "user" of the site but I never actually used the site and never paid them anything."


Yeah sure, you were just doing research. [wink, wink, nudge, nudge].

Blogger Floyd Looney August 27, 2015 9:59 PM  

Who exactly are these men chatting with anyway

Anonymous Godfrey August 27, 2015 10:02 PM  

@92

Other straight men, hookers & transvestites.

Blogger Harold August 27, 2015 10:26 PM  

I know a few people, including family members, who've met their spouse online. And so far, no divorces amongst them. I've known many people who were engaged more then a year to someone they had known for years. Only one of those couples are still married. To me, a long engagement says, "I'm not really sure...." So far, the longest marriages I've seen amongst my friends, and it includes me, is meet, date, get engaged, and marry within one year from start to finish. If it's right, you know it's right right from the start.

If you're a male and want to cheat, or just get laid, I have been told by guys who do it and don't have much taste, hang around the bar until closing time and go after the women who are still alone then. They're the ones who tell me, "I've never gone to bed with an ugly woman, but I've sure woken up with some." And most of them have one or more divorces under their belt. I can't help but imagine that a woman with a ax to grind would advertise on a site like AM then meet guys, get their real names and take a photo, then put the guy on their facebook page. If a woman is advertising she wants an affair- there's something wrong with her.

Back when it was personal ads in the classifieds, I always read the profiles. And remembered PT Barnum as I read the self descriptions of all these wonderful beautiful intelligent women desperately advertising for a man. "There's a sucker born every minute."

OpenID corvinus333 August 27, 2015 10:41 PM  

Huh?
I've used Match very successfully in multiple states as a traveling consultant on and off since 2005 (I am 45 now). It is such a gold mine that I rarely bother to use any other approach. This story won't change that at all.
BTW I heartily laugh at anyone who tries to attach a stigma to it (not that you did that, just throwing that in).


@89 Copperhead Joe
Lemme guess... the women were in their 30s and 40s, often divorced, with kids. If that's what floats your boat, then I suppose it would be a "gold mine".

I know a few people, including family members, who've met their spouse online. And so far, no divorces amongst them.

@94
Online dating is great for meeting women your own age, since the age homogamy bias is considerably stronger online than it is in real life.

Although whether that's actually a good idea is a whole other ball of wax.

Blogger Redneck Joe August 27, 2015 11:12 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Copperhead Joe August 27, 2015 11:26 PM  

@95 "Lemme guess... the women were in their 30s and 40s, often divorced, with kids. If that's what floats your boat, then I suppose it would be a 'gold mine'."

Oh yeah I forgot to mention that part. Heh. Allright I got carried away with gold mine. I was responding to the guy who said this story would spell the end of Match. It is alive and kickin and will remain so.
And they are not nearly all as bad as your stereotype. I've been exclusive with one I met on Match for a while now. 5'8" 118 lb blonde who likes to shoot.
As some have said, I also do not like bars, can't drink anymore. Match gives you the ability to screen. I find that I am interested in meeting 2 or 3 out of 100 after reading the self-descriptions. For example, a ctrl+f for "independent" eliminates quite a few. For an introvert who is in shape and has a good job (a standout in pictures and on paper, for my age, so to speak) it is a time and grief saver. I do ok in person, but it is easier for me to break the ice with digital game, if there is such a thing (I believe so).

Blogger Joshua Sinistar August 27, 2015 11:42 PM  

Oh the joys of living in a Dark Dystopian Future! Look real women aren't looking for casual sex. Where were you when High School happened? Did hot girls go around offering free milk for everyone? Those relationship sites like eHarmony have a huge amount of lonely women who want a man, and these casual sex sites are full of horndogs who want free poon. Is there a happy medium? Not anymore.
If you want hookers they're all over Craigslist, but buyer beware as some are hoods baiting honey traps to rob you. If you're looking to score some ass, you have to pay, one way or another. Older women with biological clock issues and down to their last dozen eggs are easy, but if you want young you need an upscale car and nice designer clothes. You don't have to be wealthy, just pile your dough into an expensive car and rent a great hotel room at a high class hotel or resort. Fake ID standard.

Blogger Bambino November 14, 2016 10:56 PM  

You're all a bunch of fucking losers.

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