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Friday, August 07, 2015

So much for "Christian Zionism"

All those evangelicals who are so keen to profess how they love Israel even better than they do America or Jesus Christ should perhaps consider that their affections are not returned
The leader of a far-Right Israeli group has risked arrest by apparently voicing support for arson attacks on Christian churches amid an official crackdown on Jewish extremism.

Benzi Gopstein, the outspoken head of Lehava - which has drawn notoriety for its violent assaults on Jewish-Arab assimilation - made the remarks at a panel discussion for Jewish yeshiva students when asked by a fellow panelist if he believed burning down churches in Israel was justified.

He later tried to evade accusations of inciting his followers to fire-raise, saying it was the government's responsibility to carry out what he presented as a religious teaching of the 12th century Jewish philosopher, Maimonides.

“Did the Rambam [Maimonides] rule to destroy [idol worship] or not? Idol worship must be destroyed. It’s simply yes – what’s the question?” Mr Gopstein told the panel.

His comment alarmed his questioner Benny Rabinovich, a journalist, who told him: "Benzi, I must say I’m really shocked by what you’re saying here. You are essentially saying we must go out and burn down churches. You’re saying something insane here.”

Told by another panelist, Moshe Klein, rabbi of Israel's Haddash medical centres, that the discussion was being filmed and that his remarks could lead to his arrest, Mr Gopstein answered: “That’s the last thing that concerns me. If this is truth, I’m prepared to sit in jail 50 years for it.” 
This is a reminder of the fact that diversity+proximity=war. It's also a reminder of the fact that immigrants transform the land, the land doesn't transform the immigrants.

I'm a Zionist myself, but not on the basis of being a Christian. Israel for the Jews, Germany for the Germans, France for the French, and so forth. If you want relative peace, that is the way to achieve it. But I would no more attend a church that flew an Israeli flag than one that featured a female pastor. Both are unmistakable signs of a church that follows the world rather than Jesus Christ.

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205 Comments:

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Anonymous Steve August 07, 2015 4:33 AM  

Did the Rambam [Maimonides] rule to destroy [idol worship] or not?

Rambam thank you, ma'am.

I would no more attend a church that flew an Israeli flag than one that featured a female pastor.

I find the Israel fetish among a certain subset of American Protestants to be... strange.

Israel's a fine little country, with lots of excellent people in it. Everybody should visit the Holy Land at least once. I wish them well. I happily buy their exports. I prefer them to their neighbours. It pisses me off when European lefties demonise them and cry crocodile tears for Palestine.

But God hasn't told me to shill for Likud and... something something... Rapture. The theology behind that - to my simple mind - seems to have more to do with rich pastors flying around in Learjets than it does anything Jesus Christ said.

Blogger Markku August 07, 2015 4:40 AM  

Yes, let's have a veritable burn-a-rama, see what's left standing. I'm game.

Blogger ray August 07, 2015 4:54 AM  

Israel for the Jews, Germany for the Germans, France for the French, and so forth. If you want relative peace, that is the way to achieve it. But I would no more attend a church that flew an Israeli flag than one that featured a female pastor. Both are unmistakable signs of a church that follows the world rather than Jesus Christ.


Yep. And if the State of Israel follows anything or anybody else, look out.

Ole Benzi, he doesn't surprise me. Maimonides told him eh? :O)

Heck I've heard rabbis on the Temple porch snarkily denigrating the name of Christ, alluding to things I won't mention here. So, they can find out the hard way. Jeshua is King of Jerusalem and also of Judah, and Israel's obedience is not negotiable.

Blogger Philip Sandifer August 07, 2015 5:05 AM  

Israel for the Jews, Germany for the Germans, France for the French, and so forth.

Says the Mexican/Native American living in Europe...

Blogger Jew613 August 07, 2015 5:24 AM  

For a jew assimilation is shmad, spiritual death. Lehava is simply acting in an aggressive manner to fight missionaries and our daughters marrying foreign sons.

If non-jews wish to dwell in the land they may. So long as they meet certain conditions. But if they attempt to destroy Jews whether physically or spiritually they should expect the Jews to defend themselves.

If you want your nations to survive you must do what is necessary to defend them.

Anonymous PhillipGeorge©2015 August 07, 2015 5:31 AM  

Jew613,
was Jesus a threat to Judaism?
sorry, I couldn't help it.
See, we just think you neither know the tanach, nor the power of God.
Maybe Rabbi Jonathan Cahn on prophesy that's about you.

Anonymous Samuel Scott August 07, 2015 5:40 AM  

The opinions and actions of a fringe group of lunatics are in no way indicative of the feelings of the Israeli government, people, and society as a whole.

Anonymous rienzi August 07, 2015 5:43 AM  

Vox::" Israel for the Jews, Germany for the Germans, France for the French, and so forth."

Sandifer: "Says the Mexican/Native American living in Europe..."

Vox hardly needs me to defend him, but your stupid, snarky little comment really illustrates SJW "disqualify" douchebaggery. If you have been paying attention to this blog at all you would know that Vox is not trying to change the culture of his Italian surroundings to that of Minnesota. He has learned the language, plays for the local soccer club, and tries to fit in as much as a foreigner is ever going to be able to do .He wants the Italy he lives in to stay as Italian as possible.

This in contrast to the Mexicans who want to bring Sinaloa and Durango to Iowa., the Muslims who want to bring Algiers to France, or the Nigerians who want to reconstruct Lagos in Oslo.

Major difference Mr. Sandifer, or is that concept on a higher floor than your elevator reaches?

Blogger ray August 07, 2015 5:51 AM  

The most important personages in Christianity were Jews -- Jeshua, the OT prophets and certain kings, the apostles. So, what assimilation? They're your OWN people.

These are the best of God's creations among men, sent by him to shepherd Israel. When Lehava rejects them, Lehava rejects the Father who provided them. Who is Lehava to speak for Israel? I don't see them in my bible.

Blogger Doom August 07, 2015 5:54 AM  

I don't expect much reciprocity from Jews, even of the nominal sort, but certainly not from either the secular or extremist sort. Doesn't matter. As a Catholic, living in a nation that created, in part, public schools, in order to banish Catholicism... I don't expect much from anyone. Not even the current pope, or last several. Bleh.

Then again, currently, my support for Israel is purely world politics, regional stability, a stop-gap front like I don't mind being watered from time to time (but not fully, ever, trusted). Unless they build the temple, they... aren't religiously involved. And given how screwy prophecy can be, I can't swear Israel is what, or where, it will be. I do believe Jews will be given a chance, but... not much more. I don't think they have all that much of a part to play, just another shot at salvation that some, such as muslims, probably won't get.

Blogger VD August 07, 2015 5:59 AM  

Says the Mexican/Native American living in Europe...

Who speaks the local language, is fully integrated into the local culture, and is accepted as a contributor to the local community.

Blogger Shevi S August 07, 2015 6:03 AM  

Many Jewish, for examples Isserlis, authorities hold that Christianity is not Avodah Zara, idolatry.

And Lehava is very much a fringe group, witness the official Governemnt crackdown and the audience reaction. Lehava is also driven by Christian proselytizing in Israel.

Anonymous Steve August 07, 2015 6:06 AM  

Great. Now Markku the Burninator has put the Trogdor song in my head.

Blogger Philip Sandifer August 07, 2015 6:15 AM  

Who speaks the local language, is fully integrated into the local culture, and is accepted as a contributor to the local community.

Ah. An immigrant transformed by the land. I see.

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 6:27 AM  

I was raised Pentecostal / Charismatic, and I converted to Catholicism later. It was a saner option. Anyways, while although I was heavily exposed to a Jewphilia via dispensational (rapture) theology, I don't ever remember the church flying Israeli flags, although, in retrospect it would have been one of the less goofy things they did

Blogger VD August 07, 2015 6:36 AM  

Ah. An immigrant transformed by the land. I see.

Not at all. It's because I have made the transformation that I understand, as monolingual ignoramuses like you do not, that the transformation is an intentional and very difficult effort of the will. I have seen the ethnic enclaves, the Portuguese, the Chinese, the Brits, and the Americans. Even the fifth generation is not remotely assimilated in some circumstances.

And even when the transformation is intentional, it is only partial. I'm not a true Italian, any more than I became a true Japanese when I lived there. But I have not converted either Japan or Italy into a small slice of America either.

You simply know nothing about it, and you're too stupidly smug in your ignorance to bother learning anything from those who actually know.

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 6:37 AM  

Philip Sandifer

" Ah. An immigrant transformed by the land. I see."

Isn't the left constant telling the right that America is changing, and we need to court immigrants to keep up with the times? Are you seriously denying immigrants change the land? Why does the left always and almost exclusively retort to snark?

Thats a rhetorical question by the way. I know why

Anonymous Fp August 07, 2015 6:38 AM  

"Ah. An immigrant transformed by the land. I see."

Then how come the "land" isn't transforming crimigants invading other nations?

Blogger Mr.MantraMan August 07, 2015 6:40 AM  

This Zionism thing keeps up next thing you know their will be a White Zionism thing going.

Anonymous Fp August 07, 2015 6:43 AM  

And land is just the land leftard, it's the human culture on the land that makes the difference.

Anonymous Steve August 07, 2015 6:52 AM  

Justin C - Are Jehovas Witnesses Charismatic? We get a couple of nice old lady Jehovas Witnesses at our door a lot.

Drives my wife mental (she's a Baptist). But she's too polite to say anything.

She doesn't know why they keep coming back after more than a year of knocking the door and trying to strike up a conversation about Watchtower, even though she's never given them any indication of having witnessed anything Jehovah may or may not have done.

She also doesn't know that they sometimes come to our door when she's out, and I always tell them she read the last copy of Watchtower and is really interested in discussing it with them, and of course they're welcome to come back and see her and the kiddies. Sadly, I'm always just about to leave the house for an urgent appointment, so am unable to discuss our Lord personally.

Sometimes it's the little things that make married life worthwhile.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan August 07, 2015 6:53 AM  

Actually Phil the "anti-racist" is on to something, if you watch the short cartoon "Anti-racist Hitler" you will see that "love" solves the jewish problem.

Anonymous zen0 August 07, 2015 6:54 AM  

@16 VD

You simply know nothing about it, and you're too stupidly smug in your ignorance to bother learning anything from those who actually know.

The defining attributes of Sandifer Syndrome , another in the long list of SJW infirmities.

Blogger Doom August 07, 2015 6:56 AM  

Vox,

You are not Catholic. Not that, for most Catholics, that means a whole lot. How much of the mafia goes to church, generally Catholic? Still... it is a local flavor. You don't seem as... hateful to Catholicism as most evangelicals though. There is that. Then again, with you, it is very difficult to know when you are saying what, despite your certitude at times.

Not so much arguing. I am not a child of any nation, really... or faith, culture, or the rest. In part because I don't belong. In part because I haven't put in the effort. The US seemed okay, but as I started looking, and then the closer I looked, the more certain I have become that Americans... a majority, or close enough when put together with the various corruptions, are suicidal, if more on a political/social level, letting or wanting their government to do it for them... mindless of consequences or collateral damage... starting with the children, not moving on to the elderly and sick through zerocare-ocide. Eventually it may simply become a bureaucratic issue, pure and whole.

Yeah, enjoy becoming Italian, or not harshing on their superior society, or... whatever. While the US is having a problem, Italy, and most of Europe, had the problem and surrendered to it long ago. Whatever.

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 6:58 AM  

Steve,

I have never been to a Jehova's Witness service so I don't know if their worship services are Charismatic or not. I would assume they're not since to be Charismatic means you place an emphasis of the manifestation of the Holy Spirit, and by definition I assume Witnesses place there emphasis on Jehovah.

It sounds like they keep coming back to your house because your wife gives them some hope that she's actually interested. Why not do a quick research of their beliefs from an apologetics web site (like Catholic Answers ;) ) and then you can politely but definitively tell them why you won;t become a Jehovah's Witness.

No offense to any of the ilk who may be a Witness and apologies to Vox for going off topic

Anonymous zen0 August 07, 2015 7:02 AM  

@21 Steve

Sometimes it's the little things that make married life worthwhile.

After you tire of sticking it to your wife (so to speak) tell her she can drive them away by posting a picture of Charles Taze Russell on the door.

Blogger Tom Kratman August 07, 2015 7:29 AM  

Philip:

This isn't the first time I've seen someone with progressive tendencies try snark based on his own misunderstanding and mental/philosophical limitations. This demonstrated inability to reason or distinguish is one of the more damning and damnable flaws in the progressive mind. That you may, once it is pointed out, recognize this flaw in you and yours, and just possibly try to improve yourself and them, I'll try to explain it to you, as patiently as I am able.

There are two things going on here, the world as we (or Vox) might like to see it and the world as it is. In the world as it is, people live all over creation, there is no universal principle involved or imposed to prevent this. To pretend that the world is not that way, by and large, would involve being slave to the kind of delusions that are progressivism's bread and butter. You will forgive us if we pass on this, yes? Conversely, in the world as some might like to see it, with strong, ethnically or at least culturally based nations, there would probably be little mixing, and that perhaps driven by much more guaranteed assimilation (via marriage, especially). To require us to pretend and act like we live in that second kind of world, .when we know we live in the first kind of world, is an indice of a progressive's delusions, not ours.

Moreover, where Vox lives, he pays tax rather than drawing on the local social safety net. His business is international in a way that takes no jobs from the locals, even as his purchases of goods and services probably serve to employ the locals. Moreover, though your PhD is in English, you should not discount numbers. One Vox, amongst several hundred million Euros, is not going to change Europe. Thirty or fifty or one hundred million (eventually) illegal latins will change the area they occupy.

Doesn’t it embarrass you to be called to task so easily on the obvious things one would expect a PhD not to miss?

Anonymous karsten August 07, 2015 7:32 AM  

I too am a believer in people having their homelands. Germany for the Germans, France for the French, and Palestine for the Palestinians. It's not rocket science.

Blogger Nate August 07, 2015 7:46 AM  

"I too am a believer in people having their homelands. Germany for the Germans, France for the French, and Palestine for the Palestinians."

and I'm a believer in the right of conquest. The animals you refer to as palestinians attacked a nation... got their asses kicked... and lost their country.

That's how it works.

Anonymous wEz August 07, 2015 7:51 AM  

Personally, I wish there was a way we could go even further and seperate the urbanites and their worldview/ideologies from ours. I'd love to see those parasites confined to their own Petri dish of ideas...must see tv right there.

Blogger Salt August 07, 2015 7:54 AM  

Israel for the Jews. Absolutely. I can understand why they want the support of the United States. They wouldn't want it if they didn't have a King like every other Nation.

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 8:00 AM  

I never understood how one receives a PhD for his native language. On that basis,
American High School students should receive PhDs in American Studies, after al they've been immersed in it for 18 years right? They're subject mater experts.

Blogger VD August 07, 2015 8:10 AM  

What is particularly bizarre about Sandifer's snarky posturing is that I have never advocated zero immigration. A small amount of immigration from high-quality immigrants is usually in the national interest. That is not what we have been seeing for the last 30 years.

Anonymous Quartermaster August 07, 2015 8:13 AM  

@15
I’m Pentecostal and have been since conversion. I am familiar with non-Pentecostal theology, and have seen Pentecostal Theology doesn’t differ much from Wesleyan Theology. There are radical differences with RCC theology, and frankly RCC theology is as goofy as anything I’ve seen among the extremists among Pentecostals or Charismatics. I see no need to be hateful about it, but I rejected the RCC because of their theological problems.

@21
The JWs are not Charismatic or even Christian. They quit coming to my house when I showed them, from their own mistranslated Bible that they were dead wrong.

@27

I doubt the good Dr. is even reading any further. Such men are unteachable and have no desire to be teachable when it comes to reality.

Anonymous zen0 August 07, 2015 8:15 AM  

@5 Jew613

For a jew assimilation is shmad, spiritual death. Lehava is simply acting in an aggressive manner to fight missionaries and our daughters marrying foreign sons.

Exactly. Benzi Gopstein is a rabid puppy. Libertarians especially should take note of "administrative detention" commonly used in Israel. Coming soon to your town.


Mordechai Meyer subjected to same imprisonment without trial regime commonly applied to Palestinian suspects

The article is by the same guy who wrote the story in the post. The two are related.

Blogger Tom Kratman August 07, 2015 8:33 AM  

QM:

Some of the best minds ever produced by the human race have labored diligently for centuries to resolve the theological issues in Catholicism. Is it not at least remotely possible that the deficiency is in you, not Catholicism?

In any case, what do you find goofy in Catholicism? Since my own theology is not entirely orthodox, who knows, I might learn something.

Blogger Tommy Hass August 07, 2015 8:36 AM  

If Israel is to the Jews then, what do Palestinians get?

Also, if we use that definition, I am a Zionist also, lol.

Blogger Tom Kratman August 07, 2015 8:39 AM  

Whatever they can take, Tommy, if they can do so without provoking the Jews into exterminating them. If they miscalculate that, tough luck for them.

Blogger M Cephas August 07, 2015 8:45 AM  

"Who speaks the local language, is fully integrated into the local culture, and is accepted as a contributor to the local community."

You also look like you could be Italian as well, so probably don't stand out like a sore thumb.

Looking like you are of the native population does make a difference. You probably don't get as many strange looks as a Chinese guy would..

Blogger Tom Kratman August 07, 2015 8:46 AM  

"I doubt the good Dr. is even reading any further. Such men are unteachable and have no desire to be teachable when it comes to reality."

I've observed before, here and there, that progs tend to throw out stupidity as a skunk shoots its stench, as a defensive measure. They live amongst the deepest, starkest stupidity and revel in it, of course, but know, perhaps instinctively, that that level of sheer Dummheit is painful to actual thinking human beings.

Even so, I suspect he has read it and either simply lacks an answer or finds reason as painful as we find the left's idiocies.

Blogger Tom Kratman August 07, 2015 8:47 AM  

"You also look like you could be Italian as well, so probably don't stand out like a sore thumb."

Americans tend to stand out like a sore thumb wherever we are. It's a set of things, postures, our walk, the way we look at things or ignore them. It's harder for us to see, of course, but foreigners usually know.

Blogger VD August 07, 2015 8:56 AM  

Americans tend to stand out like a sore thumb wherever we are.

Germans too. We like to play "spot the German". They look like Americans, but like aliens dressed up as Americans. There is always something a little off. And these days, not nearly as fat.

It's seriously bizarre to see how fat Americans have become in the last 20 years when you haven't lived there.

Blogger Tom Kratman August 07, 2015 9:07 AM  

I have an excuse; I quit smoking about 3 years ago.

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 9:08 AM  

Quartermaster;
@34

I guess for me the questions i grappled with were not decided by the goofiness of the answers, but by their historicity

Blogger Aquila Aquilonis Fulminata August 07, 2015 9:12 AM  

I can spot a Euro a mile a way. They look like aliens, especially eastern Europeans.

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 9:12 AM  

For OPSEC reasons I've tried really hard not to stand out as an American when I travel in Europe. I'm flattered when locals approach me and don't automatically speak to me in English! It helps being naturally skinny I guess.

Blogger Jew613 August 07, 2015 9:15 AM  

Samuel Scott, remember you need to cherish your extremists. Hating lehava won't make the Hellenists like you any better.

The article also has a major inaccuracy in that the Israeli government has used administrative detention for decades against nationalists some like Noam federman imprisoned for years with no charges.

Blogger skiballa August 07, 2015 9:15 AM  

"It's seriously bizarre to see how fat Americans have become in the last 20 years when you haven't lived there."

While I was in the Army ('00-'10), I spent almost half of my ten years overseas, coming back to the States was always interesting. Talk about culture shock, and this just coming from the military subculture of the US.

Blogger Salt August 07, 2015 9:20 AM  

Americans tend to stand out like a sore thumb wherever we are

I was in Vienna once, at the train station, having a smoke and coffee. I was dressed in slacks and a button down shirt. Also had on a pair of blue suede shoes given to me by an Austrian shoe merchant (I was kinda seeing his daughter). Everyone took me for Austrian till I opened my mouth.

Two late-teen or early twenties girls, dressed in jeans with patches on them, and carrying backpacks, came up to me. Americans, and easily spotted. One held out a cigarette, and, pointing at it, said in slow English, "Do. You. Have. A. Match?"

I held out a box of matches and asked," Where are you from?" Of course my accent was spot on American.

They walked off giggling. I will say, they were both slim and attractive.

Blogger skiballa August 07, 2015 9:29 AM  

Here in Western Massachusetts I sometimes get mistaken for a variety of nationalities, most fun is when Ukrainians try to get me to translate for them. On that note, are there a lot of 6'3" red headed Ukrainians? I could probably pass unremarked in most of the Northwest European countries, as I don't dress like the typical American.

Blogger Rabbi B August 07, 2015 9:35 AM  

"“Did the Rambam [Maimonides] rule to destroy [idol worship] or not? Idol worship must be destroyed. It’s simply yes – what’s the question?” Mr Gopstein told the panel."

Zealots . . . G-d love 'em.

"Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

“I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your holy people in Jerusalem. 14 And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name.”

But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”

"All those who heard him were astonished and asked, “Isn’t he the man who raised havoc in Jerusalem among those who call on this name? And hasn’t he come here to take them as prisoners to the chief priests?” Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Y'shua is the Messiah."

(cf. Acts 9)

Anonymous Homesteader August 07, 2015 9:35 AM  

When I lived in Germany, I did my best to go full native-"more German than German". Language, clothing, friends, etc.

Nice try, no biscuit.

As Vox says, body language, mannerisms, the set of unspoken assumptions that guide our actions-these don't get mentioned in your Barron's Dictionary.Even if you burn to be one, mimicry is not identity.

To wit: One night, out with some GI buddies at the local biergarten, we dared Tommy to give a "wet willy" to a stranger, fully expecting a brawl to ensue. Tommy took the bet, gave the mark the wet-finger-in-the-ear, and.....nothing. He looked up, muttered something, and turned back to his conversation. We were dumbfounded. (Granted, not the best example of trying to blend, but still illustrative..)

(Germans wait at empty crosswalks, too.)

Assimilation isn't easy, even if you WANT to.

(Colonization's a breeze, though.)

Blogger Alexander August 07, 2015 9:36 AM  

Salt @49.

You may be mistaken for an Austrian cool, but you'll never be mistaken for a 6'3" badass ex-marine cool.

Blogger Alexander August 07, 2015 9:38 AM  

(Germans wait at empty crosswalks, too.)

My God, this!

I was in Frankfurt before the 2006 world cup, and a chunk of the downtown was warded off as a pedestrian-only venue for the coming games.

They all stopped at the crosswalk even so.

Anonymous Eric Ashley August 07, 2015 9:40 AM  

Even as hyperbolic rhetoric, this is ridiculous.

Evangelicals keen to say 'We love Israel more than Jesus'. Put down the crack pipe, man. That stuff will seriously mess with your brain. Pretty soon, you'll be sending donations to Al Gore.

As if a lot of Evangelicals were not well aware that a bunch of Jews are not that fond of us (English understatement, its a thing.).

I can understand, maybe, white nationalists who tend toward the dimwit part of the bell curve, saying things like 'you evangelicals worship Israel'.

'Cuckservative' failed. I get it. You're ticked. What does it take to get the evangelicals who basically hold the world in their hands, if they but realized it, to get up and do what you see so clearly needs to be done?

Libertarians, white nationalists, odd variants of unAmerican Christians, and Arabs....none of these are likely to get their heart's desire which is to rule over the evangelicals, and use them to attain their dreams.

The current path is to keep incrementally battering at the bad, and hope for another Reagan. Its not much of a strategy, but its better than any strategy that depends on intimidating Real Conservatives to win.

Blogger Aquila Aquilonis Fulminata August 07, 2015 9:41 AM  

I can spot a Euro a mile a way. They look like aliens, especially eastern Europeans.

Anonymous Steve August 07, 2015 9:53 AM  

zen0 - After you tire of sticking it to your wife

That's why they invented golf.

Salt - when I've been to Gay Paree I've had French people ask me directions or asking for a light or just generally striking up a conversation in French. And British people speaking English or schoolboy French at me VERY... SLOWLY... wanting to know where the toilettes are or whatever.

It's quite upsetting. I'm thinking of throwing away my beret and string of onions.

Blogger VD August 07, 2015 10:07 AM  

It helps being naturally skinny I guess.

And not wearing white sneakers. Or unlaced shoes. Or fanny/belly packs. Americans also have better teeth, due to both dental care and less smoking.

OpenID bc64a9f8-765e-11e3-8683-000bcdcb2996 August 07, 2015 10:09 AM  

Burning down the churches.
TRIGGER WARNING: Metaphor ahead.
Ahhhh...The Three Little Pigs.
I remember the good old days when churches were built of stone. NOT built of straw or twigs. And with enough buttressing, even the roof was made of slate.
CaptDMO

Blogger Salt August 07, 2015 10:11 AM  

You may be mistaken for an Austrian cool, but you'll never be mistaken for a 6'3" badass ex-marine cool

At 5'8, no way. Funniest was when I asked a Parisian (he looked it), in Vienna at the Pension Stoi, in my pathetic 6 years of school French, where the caretaker was, re responded by asking, in English, "Are you Italian?"

Anonymous Homesteader August 07, 2015 10:29 AM  

I tried to order a beer once, using my best German.

2pm, empty Gasthaus-I was alone. Giving good blend, I thought.

The barmaid looked me dead in the eye, and said, "We don't serve Americans."

Blogger Nikis-Knight August 07, 2015 10:31 AM  

Palestinian homeland is called Jordan.
There are immigrants worth taking, but a nation is safer taking none than any, and the happy medium is much closer to none than every.

Anonymous Steve August 07, 2015 10:51 AM  

Americans also have better teeth

Americans have glorious teeth. Improbably white, sparkling, perfect, Donny Osmond smiles. Like space aliens from planet Colgate.

This is why some people don't like them.

I didn't have a toothbrush till I was 10. I didn't know what dental floss was till I was a teenager. There's more mercury amalgam in my mouth than in the Yatsushiro Sea. Years of smoking have given my teeth a healthy tan that I call "Fantasia in Yellow".

And then these damn colonials come along, with their dazzling pearlescent choppers and their swanky fanny packs, thinking they're better than me because their smiles don't move small children to tears?

Bloody Yanks. If it wasn't for Bill Shatner, Mike Myers, and Jim Carrey, nobody would like you. You toothy bastards.

Anonymous p-dawg August 07, 2015 10:57 AM  

If you believe that his source material is correct, then he is correct. If you don't, then he's wrong. It's a choice we'll all have to make sooner or later.

Anonymous LES August 07, 2015 11:10 AM  

Israeli historian and professor Ilan Pappe has written The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine which documents how the Jews stole the land from the indigenous people of the land called Palestine.

Blogger Nate August 07, 2015 11:32 AM  

"If Israel is to the Jews then, what do Palestinians get?"

the same thing the Navajo got.

That's what happens when you get your ass kicked.

Blogger Tommy Hass August 07, 2015 11:32 AM  

"Palestinian homeland is called Jordan."

......seriously?

Blogger Tommy Hass August 07, 2015 11:34 AM  

"the same thing the Navajo got.

That's what happens when you get your ass kicked."

That's not the point.

Vox seems to imply that he is for the right of any people to have it's own nation. This explains his pro Israel stance. But then, he should also be for a homeland for the Palestinians, if this is the principle.

If I miscalculated, I'd appreciate correction.

Anonymous wEz August 07, 2015 11:45 AM  

Way to be a dick, sir.

Anonymous Jeigh Di August 07, 2015 11:45 AM  

"Bloody Yanks. If it wasn't for Bill Shatner, Mike Myers, and Jim Carrey, nobody would like you. You toothy bastards."

These guys are all Canadians.

Anonymous MikeM August 07, 2015 11:53 AM  

Interesting how many rabbit trails have come up in this set of comments. I agree with Vox to a certain extent. Loyalty to the Lord Jesus is first. Period. I agree that there should be a state of Israel since it is necessary for the fulfillment of biblical prophecy. I also recognize that the Israelites in the land are there in unbelief in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They denied their Messiah 2000 years ago and they will not be redeemed except through faith or they see Him again. In the meantime, God will take care of Israel. If the USA wants to aid them with arms and not continually forcing them to give up property for peace that will be OK.

All of this whining about the poor Palestinians seems just sad. They are, by and large, a bunch of murderous thugs.

I have read the book and the true Christians and Israel win.

Anonymous Donn #0114 August 07, 2015 11:54 AM  

Tommy Hass @97 Yes. Seriously. Jordan not Israel took 90% of the land. For some reason no one mentions it. The PLO certainly didn't ask. They did have a little kerfluffle with Jordan but I can't quite remember how it turned out.

Blogger Rabbi B August 07, 2015 12:02 PM  

"Palestinian homeland is called Jordan."

No. Palestinian "homeland" is a myth.

Abraham negotiated with the squatter Efron fair and square (actually Abraham paid an exorbitant price) for the first piece of land in what was promised to him by G-d. The rest (of what was promised) G-d searched out for us and helped us acquire.

There were certain areas (Edom to the south for example) which were not promised to us (also Moab and Ammon, although we ended up with these areas because we defeated the kings of these areas on account of an unprovoked attack).

"Israel did not take the land of Moab or the land of the Ammonites. But when they came up out of Egypt, Israel went through the wilderness to the Red Sea and on to Kadesh. Then Israel sent messengers to the king of Edom, saying, ‘Give us permission to go through your country,’ but the king of Edom would not listen. They sent also to the king of Moab, and he refused. So Israel stayed at Kadesh.

“Next they traveled through the wilderness, skirted the lands of Edom and Moab, passed along the eastern side of the country of Moab, and camped on the other side of the Arnon. They did not enter the territory of Moab, for the Arnon was its border.

“Then Israel sent messengers to Sihon king of the Amorites, who ruled in Heshbon, and said to him, ‘Let us pass through your country to our own place.’ Sihon, however, did not trust Israel to pass through his territory. He mustered all his troops and encamped at Jahaz and fought with Israel.

“Then the Lord, the God of Israel, gave Sihon and his whole army into Israel’s hands, and they defeated them. Israel took over all the land of the Amorites who lived in that country, capturing all of it from the Arnon to the Jabbok and from the desert to the Jordan.

“Now since the Lord, the God of Israel, has driven the Amorites out before his people Israel, what right have you to take it over? Will you not take what your god Chemosh gives you? Likewise, whatever the Lord our God has given us, we will possess. Are you any better than Balak son of Zippor, king of Moab? Did he ever quarrel with Israel or fight with them? For three hundred years Israel occupied Heshbon, Aroer, the surrounding settlements and all the towns along the Arnon. Why didn’t you retake them during that time? I have not wronged you, but you are doing me wrong by waging war against me. Let the Lord, the Judge, decide the dispute this day between the Israelites and the Ammonites.” [cf. Judges 11]

Similar principles still apply. They [Palestinians, Edomites, Arabs, et al) can have what Allah gives them.

Anonymous LES August 07, 2015 12:11 PM  

Stolen Land


Genesis 15:18

I reject the eschatology of John Nelson Darby and Scofield.

Anonymous LES August 07, 2015 12:17 PM  

The Israelites (not just the Judeans) could live in the Land on the CONDITION they obeyed His commandments.

Blogger Sir Wilshire (#320) August 07, 2015 12:19 PM  

Would Romans 15:26-27 not provide some support for Christian Zionism? By this, I mean Paul is saying here that wanting Messianic Jews to have physical security (food, shelter, etc) is an attitude he wants his Gentile audience to have. Today, we could say that implies the contemporary application is what better place for that than Israel?

"For Macedonia and Achaia have been pleased to make some contribution for the poor among the saints at Jerusalem. For they were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have come to share in their spiritual blessings, they ought also to be of service to them in material blessings."

Blogger Rabbi B August 07, 2015 12:23 PM  

"The Israelites (not just the Judeans) could live in the Land on the CONDITION they obeyed His commandments."

No disagreement there. But the story doesn't end there . . .

"When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the L-rd your G-d disperses you among the nations, and when you and your children return to the L-rd your G-d and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, then the L-rd your G-d will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you."

"Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the L-rd your G-d will gather you and bring you back. He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors. The L-rd your G-d will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live."

"The L-rd your G-d will put all these curses on your enemies who hate and persecute you. You will again obey the L-rd and follow all his commands I am giving you today. Then the L-rd your G-d will make you most prosperous in all the work of your hands and in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your land."

"The Lord will again delight in you and make you prosperous, just as he delighted in your ancestors, if you obey the L-rd your G-d and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the L-rd your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul."

(cf. Deuteronomy 30)

Blogger Markku August 07, 2015 12:24 PM  

what better place for that than Israel?

Just about any place except Islamic nations, as Israel doesn't recognize them as Jews.

Anonymous 11B August 07, 2015 12:27 PM  

The opinions and actions of a fringe group of lunatics are in no way indicative of the feelings of the Israeli government, people, and society as a whole.

Sam, welcome to the club. I recall the excessive media coverage over one pastor Terry Jones and his 60 member church.

Anonymous BGS August 07, 2015 12:31 PM  

If a Zionist would rather have Jews go to Israel than stay in his own country, I guess I am a Zionist.

Ah. An immigrant transformed by the land. I see."

We need to get rice paddys in th inner cities so black boys born in them can have the same 1 out of 50 odds of getting a perfect math SAT as Asian boys. We can finally get black boys to be just as smart and non violent as Asian girls.

"Americans tend to stand out like a sore thumb wherever we are." " "spot the German". They look like Americans, but like aliens dressed up as Americans"

So I guess saying I blended in in Germany where I have relatives on one side of the family doesn't count.

Blogger Sir Wilshire (#320) August 07, 2015 12:33 PM  

What have you heard on that Markku? From what I remember hearing about from the last year or so, it's becoming easier for them to make Aliyah and easier to be one living in the land. I'll look into the sources again sometime soon.

Blogger Markku August 07, 2015 12:36 PM  

Wikipedia says:

"Jewish organizations, and the Supreme Court of Israel in cases related to the Law of Return, have rejected this claim, and instead consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Christianity."

But there might of course be more recent changes I've not heard about. The references are from the years 2006 and 2010.

Blogger Sir Wilshire (#320) August 07, 2015 12:38 PM  

Also, until I get the chance to look for what I heard in the past, Rabbi B, do you have insight on this?

I think I saw you were considering it for the future?

Blogger Eraser August 07, 2015 12:40 PM  

Kratman (@27): Moreover, where Vox lives, he pays tax rather than drawing on the local social safety net. His business is international in a way that takes no jobs from the locals, even as his purchases of goods and services probably serve to employ the locals.

That makes him a good immigrant, doesn't it? Yet he has repeatedly called for the expulsion of all immigrants whose ethnic origins he considers undesirable, regardless of whether they work, pay taxes or contribute to society. I’ll quote from this post of his from a few weeks ago (emphasis mine): Do Americans really need to wait until the Somalis suicide-bomb the Megamall before repatriating all of them back to their homelands?

VD (@16): It's because I have made the transformation that I understand, as monolingual ignoramuses like you do not, that the transformation is an intentional and very difficult effort of the will.

Oh, I see. Precious little snowflake made a difficult effort of the will, so the rule doesn't apply to him.

Vox, you're not special. Not in that way, at least. Every immigrant has a tough time adapting to life on a foreign country. I know, I've been there. Being white, well-off and independent from the labor market means you've had it way easier than most.

Blogger Markku August 07, 2015 12:42 PM  

all immigrants whose ethnic origins he considers undesirable

Exactly. Glad you made the qualification. So, where's the contradiction? If Vox's present country started considering USA as an undesireable ethnic origin, I'm sure he would respect their right to tell him to leave.

Blogger Rabbi B August 07, 2015 12:44 PM  

"Also, until I get the chance to look for what I heard in the past, Rabbi B, do you have insight on this?"

Markku is correct. The current "Law of Return" as follows from the Jewish Agency:

With the inception of the State of Israel, two thousand years of wandering were officially over. Since then, Jews have been entitled to simply show up and request to be Israeli citizens, assuming they posed no imminent danger to public health, state security, or the Jewish people as a whole. Essentially, all Jews everywhere are Israeli citizens by right.

In 1955, the law was amended slightly to specify that dangerous criminals could also be denied that right.

In 1970, Israel took another historic step by granting automatic citizenship not only to Jews, but also to their non-Jewish children, grandchildren, and spouses, and to the non-Jewish spouses of their children and grandchildren. This addition not only ensured that families would not be broken apart, but also promised a safe haven in Israel for non-Jews subject to persecution because of their Jewish roots.

Blogger Rabbi B August 07, 2015 12:45 PM  

The Law of Return, 5710-1950


Every Jew has the right to come to this country as an Oleh.

Aliyah shall be by Oleh's visa.
An Oleh's visa shall be granted to every Jew who has expressed his desire to settle in Israel, unless the Minister of Immigration is satisfied that the applicant --
is engaged in an activity directed against the Jewish people; or
is likely to endanger public health or the security of the State.

A Jew who has come to Israel and subsequent to his arrival has expressed his desire to settle in Israel may, while still in Israel, receive an Oleh's certificate.
The restrictions specified in section 2 (b) shall apply also to the grant of an Oleh's certificate; but a person shall not be regarded as endangering public health on account of an illness contracted after his arrival in Israel.
Every Jew who has immigrated into this country before the coming into force of this Law, and every Jew who was born in this country, whether before or after the coming into force of this Law, shall be deemed to be a person who has come to this country as an Oleh under this Law.
The Minister of Immigration is charged with the implementation of this Law and may make regulations as to any matter relating to such implementation and also as to the grant of Oleh's visas and Oleh's certificates to minors up to the age of 18 years.


The Law of Return, 5714-1955: 1st Amendment


In section 2 (b) of the Law of Return, 5710-1950 :
The full stop at the end of paragraph (2) shall be replaced by a semicolon, and the word "or" shall be inserted thereafter;
The following paragraph shall be inserted after paragraph (2):
"(3) is a person with a criminal past, likely to endanger public welfare."
In sections 2 and 5 of the Law, the words "the Minister of Immigration" shall be replaced by the words "the Minister of the Interior".

Blogger Rabbi B August 07, 2015 12:46 PM  

The Law of Return, 5730-1970: 2nd Amendment


1. In the Law of Return, 5710-1950, the following sections shall be inserted after section 4:
"Rights of members of family:
4A.
a. The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights of an Oleh under the Nationality Law, 5710 - 1950, as well as the rights of an Oleh under any other enactment, are also vested in a child and grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew, except for a person who has been a Jew and has voluntarily changed his religion.
b. It shall be immaterial whether or not a Jew by whose right a right under subsection (a) is claimed is still alive and whether or not he has immigrated to Israel.
c. The restrictions and conditions prescribed in respect of a Jew or an Oleh by or under this Law or by the enactments referred to in subsection (a) shall also apply to a person who claims a right under subsection (a).
Definition:
4B. For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member of another religion."
In section 5 of the Law of Return, 5710 - 1950, the following shall be added at the end: "Regulations for the purposes of sections 4A and 4B require the approval of the Constitution, Legislation and Judicial Committee of the Knesset."
In the Population Registry Law, 5725-1965, the following section shall be inserted after section 3:
3A.
A person shall not be registered as a Jew by ethnic affiliation or religion if a notification under this Law or another entry in the Registry or a public document indicates that he is not a Jew, so long as the said notification, entry or document has not been converted to the satisfaction of the Chief Registration Officer or so long as declaratory judgment of a competent court or tribunal has not otherwise determined.
For the purposes of this Law and of any registration or document thereunder, "Jew" has the same meaning as in section 4B of the Law of Return, 5710-1950.
This section shall not derogate from a registration effected before its coming into force.

Anonymous LES August 07, 2015 12:58 PM  

Jews are born Jews after the flesh. That is why Jesus told Nicodemus to be a Christian you must be born again, of the spirit. Not everyone can be born a Jew, but anyone can be born again in the spirit as a Christian. This is the New Covenant where the Promised Land is Heaven, not the modern, secular state called Israel.

John 3
"There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’"

Blogger Rabbi B August 07, 2015 1:13 PM  

"This is the New Covenant where the Promised Land is Heaven, not the modern, secular state called Israel."

The promises to Abraham are not nullified with this (Re)newed Covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah (cf. Jeremiah 31 -33) and the promise to Abraham clearly includes the promise of a physical land to physical descendants upon which Abraham set his physical foot.

Any interpretation must not destroy the p'shat (i.e. plain meaning) of the text.

Anonymous LES August 07, 2015 1:16 PM  

@77 That promise was probably fulfilled before the Northern Kingdom of Israel went into captivity. That promise certainly is not being fulfilled today. Not with unrepentant, atheist Judeans.

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 1:24 PM  

VD : And not wearing white sneakers. Or unlaced shoes. Or fanny/belly packs. Americans also have better teeth, due to both dental care and less smoking."

Vox, How did you know my teeth are a little crooked dammit.

Anonymous Steve August 07, 2015 1:28 PM  

Jeigh Di - those guys are all Canadians

You win the prize.

Blogger Rabbi B August 07, 2015 1:29 PM  

"That promise certainly is not being fulfilled today."

Agreed. But that does not mean it won't be. It is undeniable that the Jews are being regathered back to Israel from the four corners of the earth, from the countries to which we have been scattered. G-d has also always preserved a faithful remnant throughout history to which Paul himself testifies:

"I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

"I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.

God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”?

And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

(cf. Romans 9-11)

Even Paul, who embraced the Messiah and was 'born again' [a Jewish concept and idea, BTW] identified with physical Israel, even citing the tribe of which he was a physical descendant. he qualified his statements by reminding us he was speaking the truth in Christ and not lying. His words need to be seriously considered.

Blogger Rabbi B August 07, 2015 1:37 PM  

"That promise was probably fulfilled before the Northern Kingdom of Israel went into captivity. "

It was not.

Anonymous LES August 07, 2015 2:00 PM  

You are certainly entitled to your interpretation but the US should not be underwriting Israel's fantasies.

USA vs Israel

Anonymous doulos23 August 07, 2015 2:03 PM  

The evangelical fetish with Israel is seeped in Rapture End-Times teaching which has become ridiculously "mainstream". Much of it stems from the "thousand year reign" description in Rev. 20, taking this as a literal future period of earthly region for Christ in a rebuilt Israel with a new Temple.

The problem is, that Temple became defunct with Christ. It was torn down and He raised it back up in "three days" John 2. This was accomplished through the death, burial and resurrection, and made complete after His ascension when He entered into the Heavenly Tabernacle and made the sacrifice of Himself (see Hebrews). The earthly Temple and city, et al. were merely a shadow of the real ones in Heaven (see Hebrews again).

With the coming of the New Convevant physical Israel gave way to spiritual Israel (e.g. the church). This church was first offered exclusively to Jews (Acts 2, 3) then Samaritans (Acts 8) and then to the Gentiles as well (Acts 10, 11) all per Jesus' stated intention (Acts 1:8).

This so-called future kingdom people are waiting for is not that at all...the church IS the kingdom of Christ both earthly (those serving in life) and heavenly (those who have gone on to their reward).

Now as un-PC as it is...physical Israel ran her course. The fullness of the ages culminated in Christ (Gal. 4). God promised that in Abraham's seed (singular) all the world would be blessed. Jesus Himself warned of a coming end for Jerusalem (Mat. 24) and with it the end of Judaism (How can one really offer cultic sacrifice without the Temple or knowing who is of the family of Aaron?).

That event happened as God willed with the destruction by Titus in A.D. 70...

Anyone looking for a future Kingdom misses the plain truth that the Kingdom has existed since Pentecost. And with that false understanding heaps of false teaching have been added with disastrous results.

Blogger Tom Kratman August 07, 2015 2:04 PM  

Wow, Eraser; in a universe of fairly stupid shit, you're way down there. You quote from something containing its own logic for an action, the reference to suicide bombing, for the proposition that paying taxes is sufficient to overcome this? You expect Vox to suicide bomb some town in Europe? That is so unbefuckinglievably and egregiously idiotic that I think you should blow your fucking brains out before you breed, and if you have already bred, you should sterilize your children and then improve the human gene pool by taking yourself out of it.

Blogger Sir Wilshire (#320) August 07, 2015 2:09 PM  

You don't have to be a dispensationalist (or believe in a literal 1000 year physical future reign for that matter) in order to think that physical Israel and its faithful remnant within have a special calling from God distinct in certain ways from Gentile believers in Jesus.

For people with our beliefs, the supersessionust idea that the church replaced Israel or is the new Israel is a false teaching.

Blogger Rabbi B August 07, 2015 2:10 PM  

You are certainly entitled to your interpretation

That's nice. But that's not what I offered . . .

" . . . but the US should not be underwriting Israel's fantasies.'

Agreed.

Blogger Sir Wilshire (#320) August 07, 2015 2:12 PM  

And I should add, nor do you have to have some starry-eyed tradcon view that America must support Israel. My support of it is much more modest and eccelesiological in nature.

Blogger Rabbi B August 07, 2015 2:13 PM  

"The problem is, that Temple became defunct with Christ."

Well, with regard to land and Temple, there are the words of Ezekiel 40-48 to seriously weigh and consider.

Anonymous RamBam Thank You Ma'am August 07, 2015 2:15 PM  

Did the Rambam [Maimonides] rule to destroy [idol worship] or not?

Rambam thank you, ma'am.


You rang?

Heck I've heard rabbis on the Temple porch snarkily denigrating the name of Christ, alluding to things I won't mention here.

It's a basic tenet of Judaism. The Talmud blasphemes Jesus and his mother Mary, as well as gives dispensation for Jews to steal, rob, extort, trick and kill Christians if they can get away with it.

Many Jewish, for examples Isserlis, authorities hold that Christianity is not Avodah Zara, idolatry.

True, but many other authorities do believe that Christianity is idolatry. For example, Who Was Jesus?

The most important personages in Christianity were Jews -- Jeshua

"To allege that "Jesus was a Jew" in the sense that during His lifetime Jesus professed and practiced the form of religious worship known and practiced under the modern name of "Judaism" is false and fiction of the most blasphemous nature." - Benjamin Freedman

All I have to say to any so called Christian Zionist is the following quote:

"The Talmud is, then, the written form of that which in the time of Jesus, was called the Traditions of the Elders." — Rabbi Michael L. Rodkinson"

Now go and re-read the first four Gospels of the New Testament. What did Jesus have to say about "The Tradition of the Elders?"

Shalom!

Blogger Tom Kratman August 07, 2015 2:16 PM  

"If I miscalculated, I'd appreciate correction."

In a way, Tommy, you've done precisely what Philip Sandifer did, mix up the real world and the ideal world, assuming that one must be the other, or that those who would like a particular "ideal" world are, all lefty-like, stuck with it and must pretend that they don't live in the real world.

In the ideal world, the Palestinians recognize that they're military imbeciles, and that the only thing keeping them alive as a people is a lingering distaste on the part of the Jews for gas chambers and ovens. In that world, the Palis being realistic, the Jews can afford to give them a chunk of the area as their own state and the Palis do not then use that chunk as a base for attacks on the Jews.


In the real world, though, the Palis live in a fantasyland, supported by little but their own ignorance and the good wishes of the anti-Semitic International Community Of The Ever So Caring And Sensitive - ICOTESCAS (marca registrada), plus that aforementioned lingering distaste. In that real world, they cannot be given anything, really, because they will use whatever they're given to attack the Jews, leading, eventually, and inevitably, to those same gas chambers and ovens.

Blogger Sir Wilshire (#320) August 07, 2015 2:24 PM  

Jesus did support the tradition of the elders. See Matthew 23:2-3, & 32. He criticized the Pharisees for some of their traditions, not all. In fact the later rabbis criticized the the Pharisees of Jesus' day for some of the same things he did.

Blogger Rabbi B August 07, 2015 2:44 PM  

"And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs."

"What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come. Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law."

"Then Paul took the men, and the next day, having been purified with them, entered the temple to announce the expiration of the days of purification, at which time an offering should be made for each one of them."

(cf. Acts 21-22)

Anonymous RamBam Thank You Ma'am August 07, 2015 2:49 PM  

In that real world, they cannot be given anything, really, because they will use whatever they're given to attack the Jews, leading, eventually, and inevitably, to those same gas chambers and ovens.

You should know that Holocaustianity has lost much of it's effectiveness as hasbara, Tom.

"Holocaustianity is the last truly believed state religion in the otherwise agnostic West. Auschwitz has replaced the Resurrection as the central ontological event in our history, a substitution easy to prove: no one goes to jail for denying the Resurrection. Meanwhile, revisionists are serving long prison sentences in Europe for doubting the homicidal gas chamber icon. Among those prisoners of conscience is the brilliant, former Max Planck Institute doctoral candidate in chemistry, Germar Rudolf.

Far from complementing Christianity, as the Vatican imagines, Holocaustianity is its deadly rival for the hearts and minds of mankind. The typical "ultimate lesson of the Holocaust" imparted in the synagogues dedicated to the Six Million idol which masquerade as "holocaust history museums," hold that the historic Christian faith, as recorded in the Gospel of John and implemented by the early and medieval church, inevitably fostered the "evil bigotry" that "paved the way for the mass gassings in Auschwitz."

In spite of the thundering anathemas of the prostitute press and the prelates of newchurch, how can any true shepherd submit to this false religion and its Orwellian "Holocaust" Newspeak, which at its core represents the pernicious and perpetual libel of Jesus Christ and His authentic disciples?" - Michael Hoffman

Anonymous patrick kelly August 07, 2015 2:58 PM  

"If you believe that his source material is correct, then he is correct. If you don't, then he's wrong. It's a choice we'll all have to make sooner or later."

If it were this simple no-one who could read and understand the language of the text would ever disagree with anyone else who does likewise.

"For people with our beliefs, the supersessionust idea that the church replaced Israel or is the new Israel is a false teaching."

FWIW, my understanding of the Eastern Orthodox teachings regarding this:

The Church has not replaced or become the new Israel. Israel was the bearer of The Church similar to the way it brought forth the birth of Christ Jesus in due time. The Church existed before Israel, in the line from Adam to Abraham to Jacob and on. Not all in Israel were in The Church. That is why Christ Jesus spoke of making the rocks cry out and calling some of Israel vipers who's father was satan. Israel no longer possesses or preserves The Church.

Anonymous RamBam Thank You Ma'am August 07, 2015 3:01 PM  

Jesus did support the tradition of the elders.

Matthew 15:6 - "Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition."

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 3:04 PM  

Not to drift too much more off topic, but to round it out, in questions of eschatology as it relates to " Christian Zionism" I propose this; instead of slinging selective Bible verses back and forth to support our individual opinion of Scripture, we admit the following;

A. We all agree on what the Bible says, we just disagree on what it means.

B. how did the earliest Christians after the apostolic age ( death of St, John A.D. 100), interpret the Bible verses you use to support your eschatology.

The writings of Polycarp (Bishop of Smyrna, appointed by St. John) Ignatius, (Bishop of Antioch, appointed by St. Peter ect. are available to anyone with the internet. All theses questions have been Addressed in the first immediate decades and centuries of the Church. No need to reinvent the wheel over and over and over again

Blogger Rabbi B August 07, 2015 3:09 PM  

"Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition."

Some did and some still do, but that does not disqualify or nullify the tradition out of hand. Nullifying the Word of G-d for any reason should be condemned.

I believe the Church is rife with traditions and customs of their own. True?

Anonymous patrick kelly August 07, 2015 3:13 PM  

"instead of slinging selective Bible verses back and forth to support our individual opinion of Scripture,..................All theses questions have been Addressed in the first immediate decades and centuries of the Church. No need to reinvent the wheel over and over and over again"

I really hope my comment does not provoke such a reaction. My intention is to inform and share a perspective that is somewhat unique among the others expressed here and possibly inspire consideration of this alternative view.

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 3:14 PM  

Rabbi B, see my post above.

Protestants have an ingrained reaction to the word tradition. But Paul tells the Corinthians, "I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:2)

So again, what ever you believe as a Christian should be backed up by having a chain of continuity back to the apostles, no?

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 3:17 PM  

Patrick Kelly, my response wasn't directed at you per se. Just in general

Blogger Sir Wilshire (#320) August 07, 2015 3:19 PM  

Notice I said some of the traditions. Obviously the ones that nullified the word of God were the traditions he repudiated.

Anonymous RamBam Thank You Ma'am August 07, 2015 3:22 PM  

"I believe the Church is rife with traditions and customs of their own. True?"

Irrelevant to the point I was making, Rabbi.

I simply referred to the Traditions of the Elders as the oral traditions of the Pharisees of Jesus' time, that were eventually codified into the written Babylonian Talmud that is the foundation of Judaism as we know it today.

From the Author of The History of the Talmud:

"Is the literature that Jesus was familiar with in his early years yet in existence in the world? Is it possible for us to get at it? Can we ourselves review the ideas, the statements, the modes of reasoning and thinking, on moral and religious subjects, which were current in his time, and must have been [resolved] by him during those silent thirty years when he was pondering his future mission? To such inquires the learned class of Jewish rabbis answer by holding up the Talmud. Here, say they, is the source from whence Jesus of Nazareth drew the teaching which enabled him to revolutionize the world; and the question becomes, therefore, an interesting one to every Christian, What is the Talmud? …

The Talmud, then, is the written form of that which, in the time of Jesus, was called the Traditions of the Elders, and to which he makes frequent allusions."

— Rabbi Michael L. Rodkinson

Anonymous patrick kelly August 07, 2015 3:28 PM  

@114. Jusin C "Patrick Kelly, my response wasn't directed at you per se"

Nor mine at you, but I've been reading this blog long enough to recognize where these discussions often lead..., it's been a difficult, somber day, I'm a bit hurt and wore out from other life outside this blog and not looking for a fight. Trying to be raw and real without going all gamma on it.....but I sometimes feelzbad that at any moment the ilk can go all fight club ....I need hugz....or whiskey......is Nate here?

Blogger Sir Wilshire (#320) August 07, 2015 3:29 PM  

Justin I agree with you about the verses supporting tradition. There's also one in 1 Thess 2 explicitly contrasting tradition with Paul's letters. Sola Scriptura doesn't stand like Protestants think it does. Jesus gave the apostles the authority to make halakhic rulings for the believing remnant among the Jews. Also for believing Gentiles as we see in Acts 15.

Protestants are right to look for verses supporting an authoritative ecclesiastical body in dialogue with Catholics. But the Catholics go wrong in throwing off Jewish authority.

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 3:30 PM  

Does anyone recall the lesson of Emperor Julian the Apostate who tried to rebuild the temple? That should shed some light on the notion of Christian Zionism

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 3:33 PM  

But the Catholics go wrong in throwing off Jewish authority.


I think its because our Lord gave Peter and the Apostles authority to Bind and Loose. He gave no such authority to the Jews (the ones who failed to recognize Him as Messiah, Peter and the Apostles were Jewish I know)

Blogger Sir Wilshire (#320) August 07, 2015 3:37 PM  

Rambam,

Even non-Messianic Jewish New Testament scholars like Amy Jill-Levine and Mark Nanos will tell you that Jesus was a practioner of second temple Judiasm, most alike to the Pharisees in his beliefs and observance.

The consensus of NT scholarship has decisively settled there in the last 50 years. This is not some obscure contention Rabbi B or I are raising here.

Blogger Rabbi B August 07, 2015 3:38 PM  

"Irrelevant to the point I was making, Rabbi."

Perhaps. I was responding to your point about nullifying the word of G-d for the sake of tradition, a point which was a response to Sir Wilshire @105.

Rodkinson is also correct. We can date "oral tradition" (Torah shebe'al peh, Torah that is spoken) back to at least the days of Ezra (cf. Nehemiah 8; and as many of our Sages contend, back to Sinai).

Blogger Tommy Hass August 07, 2015 3:39 PM  

"All of this whining about the poor Palestinians seems just sad. They are, by and large, a bunch of murderous thugs."

I bet the Wehrmacht thought the same thing about the Reds they were slaughtering in large numbers.

Anonymous Quartermaster August 07, 2015 3:42 PM  

@36
This really isn’t the place to discuss theology, but I find RCC Theology contradicts scripture in many things. Hagiolatry, and its subset Maryolotry, being two examples. It’s ecclesiology also has severe problems.

The RCC also has one major obstacle between itself and Christianity – The Council of Trent. The Council Of Trent anathematized the major theme of the book of Romans, justification by faith.
You may think the RCC has had some of the best minds laboring diligently over the centuries trying to resolve theological issues in Catholicism, but the problem seems intractable as more keeps being glommed on, just increasing the problems. I’ve had some good friends who were members of the RCC, but quickly found that discussing theology with them had no profit in it. None had a good grasp of the field, even in their own church. One was even a Priest.

@39
I was stationed in Naples Italy for a year while in the Navy. Never saw an Italian that looked “Italian.” They looked like most Americans I’ve known.

@41
Yep! We stood out like a sore thumb in Naples.

@44
F”rinstance?

@48
My father was in the Air Force. I was too young the first time to notice any culture shock (or it may simply have been time period, late ’59-’61), but I did see it from the time we left in October ’66 to our return in October ’69. The US was a very different country. Different again when I returned from Italy in ’73. The culture of the country has been changing rapidly over the last 50 years.

@52 @54
The Teutonic desire for ordnung is strong in Germans. Many times it leads to stupidity.

@55
I’ve never seen any Evangelical come close to “loving Israel more than Jesus.” That is, at minimum hyperbole, and at worst slander. Some are so called “two covenant” people, like Joihn Hagee (and he’s dead wrong), but overwhelmingly hold the Jews are headed for hell as there is only one way to the father now.

@60
That would be quite deflating.

@73
Efron wanted to give Abraham the burial site. Abraham insisted on paying the going price for such land.

@74
Many do reject Scofield. His form of dispensationalism has serious problems and you won’t find many agree with him these days. I’ve seen a lot of ink spilled and pixels wasted about Darby, but I’m still not certain what the man believed about Eschatology. Lot’s of smoke, no light. Dispensational eschatology fits scripture better than any other I’ve seen, however.

@84
Your response to Vox is gratuitous and stupid.

@97
There will be a new Temple built during the Millenial reign, and Christ will rule from there. As I read the prophecies it will not be on temple mount either.

Paul also disagrees with you on Israel. He deals with it as Rabbi B points out above. Paul also dealt with the issue in Romans Chapters 9-11.

Your knowledge of the derivation of mainstream Evangelical eschatology is abysmal. That you have swallowed preterism is also sad as it contradicts scripture in numerous places, ignoring much of scripture to get to its positions.

@100
God will take care of Israel’s “fantasies.” God doesn’t need us to do it for him.

@103
Who were the elders Christ was talking about? Do you remember?

Blogger Sir Wilshire (#320) August 07, 2015 3:46 PM  

Justin,

Jesus still recognized their authority despite profound disagreements (see my ref. to Matt. 23:2-3 earlier).

He did prophesy that the leaders of his day would have their kingdom taken from them and given to another, which was fulfilled in 70 AD. He didn't mean all Jews of all time since, but that specific leadership group.

The evidence is that the another was later Rabbinc Judaism, plus the apostles and the elders they appointed for the remnant. I'll have more on that later.

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 3:51 PM  

Quartermaster

"The RCC also has one major obstacle between itself and Christianity – The Council of Trent. The Council Of Trent anathematized the major theme of the book of Romans, justification by faith."


Justification by faith, only made possible when Luther anamathaized seven books of the Bible

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 3:52 PM  

"Jesus still recognized their authority despite profound disagreements (see my ref. to Matt. 23:2-3 earlier)"

Pre passion and pre resurrection and mostly not to give offense

Blogger Sir Wilshire (#320) August 07, 2015 3:59 PM  

The book of Acts portray the Apostles as being obedient to the Sanhedrin (with the exception of evangelism) and Torah-observant in traditional ways.

Otherwise, you're just reading thoroughly gentilized Christianity assumptions back into Jesus motives here.

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 4:03 PM  

"The book of Acts portray the Apostles as being obedient to the Sanhedrin (with the exception of evangelism) and Torah-observant in traditional ways."


Most of this was before the Council Of Jerusalem (in Acts) Where Peter and the Apostles had to hash out to what extent they and Gentile believers were to follow the law of Moses. It took a little time for these things to be made apparent.

Also, no one goes out of their way to antagonize the authority of the day if they can avoid it

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 4:05 PM  

Again, what did the early church (Ante Nicene fathers) believe about such things. While we're at it, what did they say about the Eucharist? confession?

Can you trace your theological position down through the ages back to Pentecost? I can

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 4:09 PM  

As for jewish identity within in the Church, I can think one Church that has a Priesthood, a sacrifice, and an altar.

Blogger Eraser August 07, 2015 4:44 PM  

Markku(@85) and Kratman(@98), the problem is blanket condemnation of groups based on non-representative individuals.

I'm sure Vox is not a suicide bomber, but neither is the average immigrant. Are Norwegians mass murderers because of Anders Breivik? Would it be reasonable to expel every American from Italy if that Dylan wacko had shot up a church there? No reasonable person would say white Europeans are undesirable due to these examples, but that kind of argument is offered about other races.

The common fallacy is treating exceptional cases (criminals, outliers) as if they were the average.

Ignoring the difference between individuals and groups can lead to feminist reasoning: Rapists exist and are men (undeniable fact) => men are evil and Western society is "rape culture".

Just to set @98 straight: I never claimed that any country should tolerate criminals or terrorists as long as they pay taxes.

Blogger Tom Kratman August 07, 2015 4:53 PM  

Yeah...ummm...no. The things you quoted may or may not be theologically sound and internally logical, but that's not the same as "goofy."

What I find with a lot of Protestant denoms - especially the minor ones - is that they tend to latch onto one thing, sometimes in isolation, that appeals to them, and build to build an entire, but very thin, theology around that. It should not, in any case, be particularly odd to you or anyone that, faced with a Reformation (which precedes Trent) insisting on "Faith Alone," that the Catholics should have said, "Well, a) as it turns out we don't want to be Protestants, so we'll go with faith _and_ works, while b) we'll also side a little more with James, who knew Jesus and walked by his side, and wrote that "faith without works is dead," rather than a letter from Paul, who, though holy, did not."

Personal opinion; there's nothing any human can hope to do to equal the infinite gift of God's grace, but that we cannot pay back or pay forward doesn't relieve us of the obligation to _try_.

Blogger Markku August 07, 2015 4:56 PM  

No reasonable person would say white Europeans are undesirable due to these examples,

Correct. Or Americans. Hence Vox's host country is extremely unlikely to want to throw him out, though he would almost certainly respect their wishes if they did.

but that kind of argument is offered about other races.

Because THAT is eminently reasonable due to everything we have seen so far. Except regarding those from the Far East, which is exactly why we have the abbreviation NAM's.

Blogger Tom Kratman August 07, 2015 4:56 PM  

Really? It's a pretty clear implication of what you wrote.

You are, in any case, making much the same mistake as B'rer Sandifer was; numbers and density count, as does incompatibility and inherent hostility of cultures.

Anonymous clk August 07, 2015 4:59 PM  

@29 Nate says "and I'm a believer in the right of conquest"

How does this extend to the War of Southern Independence ...or the War of Northern Aggression. :)

Blogger Tom Kratman August 07, 2015 5:04 PM  

"I bet the Wehrmacht thought the same thing about the Reds they were slaughtering in large numbers."

And if they were correct. Tommy?

Blogger Eraser August 07, 2015 5:52 PM  

@134: There is the double standard, Markku. You're willing to judge people as individuals as long as they are white (or East Asian). Otherwise you'll judge them by the worst in their respective groups.

Some Latin Americans are into gangs and deal drugs => throw them all out
Some Somalians are involved in Islamic terrorism => throw them all out
Proportionally more black criminals than white => they can't live in a civilized society
(Note: I'm not claiming you believe all of the above, but those are all common opinions in this blog, aren't they?)

@135: I wrote that Vox would throw them all out, including those who work and pay taxes. Anything else is your interpretation.

I'll concede that numbers are a problem. There is a limit to what a society can comfortably absorb and 25% foreign-born, like they have in Switzerland, is way past the comfort zone.

Blogger Markku August 07, 2015 6:09 PM  

There is the double standard, Markku. You're willing to judge people as individuals as long as they are white (or East Asian). Otherwise you'll judge them by the worst in their respective groups.

No, it's the same standard for everyone. I judge the ethnic group's presence's effect on the host country as a whole, using all historical information I have available. I judge Europeans, Americans and Orientals (or is that a dirty word? Perhaps people would prefer the ambiguity of "Asians" as it includes Pakistanis?) to be beneficial.

However, my judgement is completely irrelevant to the subject at hand. What is relevant is what judgement the host country happens to make. I merely assess the likelihood of what the judgement turns out to be by my own assessment of the ethnic group. Because it's not random, it's made by rational actors.

If the judgement is stupid in the too strict direction, then it's still their decision and the person needs to leave. Or if it's stupid in the too lenient direction, then they deserve what they get.

Blogger ray August 07, 2015 6:12 PM  

Rabbi B -- To allege that "Jesus was a Jew" in the sense that during His lifetime Jesus professed and practiced the form of religious worship known and practiced under the modern name of "Judaism" is false and fiction of the most blasphemous nature."


It was a plain statement of fact, not an allegation, and I didn't force the meaning to be what I wanted, like you just did. Jeshua WAS a Jew, and still IS a Jew. I don't need the 'help' of Benjamin Freedman (whoever he is) nor of presumptuous know it all 'rabbis' to tell me about mine own.

Obviously you imagine yourself pretty smart, so smart you needed to twist my meaning into a context you desired, facilitating a sermon you could preach. You like to preach don't you?


If I want your scriptural or spiritual 'corrections', boy, I will ask you, and I haven't asked. Go play Pharisee elsewhere.

Anonymous Cuca Culpa August 07, 2015 6:49 PM  

It's also a reminder of the fact that immigrants transform the land, the land doesn't transform the immigrants.

Alberta just elected a socialist government. Do you know why? It's because while a lot of the Maritimers working the skilled trades are conservative (or else they'd be at home with their arse on the couch collecting pogey) they also know when they're being screwed. Normally Alberta is very cuckservative.

@42 @45 I can spot a francophone because of the difference in facial muscle devlopment that comes with romance languages.

Anonymous Takin' a look August 07, 2015 6:51 PM  

(Sighs) if Ka'raism had won out, Jews would probably number between 30-100 million and be treated as a quirky religious/ethnic polity.Christianity and Islam would treat them as annoying, admonishing, Elders who are to be protected, like the Amish and Diaspora Chinese rolled into one. They never had this weird obsession with Tikkun Olem aside from "what is good for the Gentiles will be good for us as well".

They are very Walther Rathenau as opposed to Lazar Kaganovich or Ovidia Yosef.

Blogger Sir Wilshire (#320) August 07, 2015 6:52 PM  

"Most of this was before the Council Of Jerusalem (in Acts) Where Peter and the Apostles had to hash out to what extent they and Gentile believers were to follow the law of Moses. It took a little time for these things to be made apparent."

Paul showed respect (and not sarcastically) in his trial before the Sanhedrin after Acts 15. Of course the Acts 21 passage Rabbi B cited above is crucial.

"Again, what did the early church (Ante Nicene fathers) believe about such things. While we're at it, what did they say about the Eucharist? confession?

Can you trace your theological position down through the ages back to Pentecost? I can"

Indeed. Michael Brown gives a good summary of something important on this issue of Jewish roots in his real Kosher Jesus book. How many of the Fathers were on good terms with these Jewish believers or spoke of the importance of the Jewish roots?

"What happened, then, was this. At first the Jesus movement was entirely Jewish, recognized as another Jewish sect (like the Pharisees or Sadducees or Essenes), but over a period of centuries, a period longer than America has existed as the United States, more and more Gentiles joined the movement, and the Jewish believers found themselves between a rock and a hard place. The Gentile church no longer understood them, having lost sight of their Jewish roots (just as Paul had warned!) and basically saying to them:

“If you want to be part of us, you have to give up your Jewishness.” (Yes, there were Jewish followers of Yeshua who were Torah observant several centuries after his death.) The rest of the Jewish community basically told them, “If you want to be part of us, you have to give up Jesus.” And so, after three hundred to four hundred years (although some claim it took up to six hundred or seven hundred years), these Jewish believers were completely swallowed up into the church.

Anonymous BigGaySteve August 07, 2015 6:53 PM  

Some Somalians are involved in Islamic terrorism => throw them all out
Proportionally more black criminals than white => they,... is blanket condemnation of groups based on non-representative individuals.


Look I used to believe I had a vested interest in Equalism being reality. We shouldn't be importing Somali moslems if for no other reason then Christian Somalis are the persecuted minority. For all the jihadi Somalis we took in we could have taken all of the Christians out of the country so there would be no persecuted minority.

Even Eric Holder admitted that 1 out of 3 voting age black males are felons when he fought against Florida's Felon No Vote Law, if you are lowering the standard to having a criminal record it would likely be the majority. More than 1/2 of a group is representative. They had to combine white & Hispanic crime together around 2006 so that blacks wouldn't look 32x more likely than whites to commit violent crime.

Some Latin Americans are into gangs and deal drugs = all illegal aliens should be thrown out.

I'm not claiming you believe all of the above, but those are all common opinions in this blog, aren't they?)

The truth is not mean. It is the truth.~Andrew Breitbart
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick

I'm sure Vox is not a suicide bomber, but neither is the average immigrant

Vox is a productive citizen and net taxpayer. In Switzerland a town of 1000 productive whites has over 1/3 of their taxes going to pay for one squatmonster refugees benefits that run around $60,000US a month. The US probably pays as much for a good number of refugee families but laws prevent the info from being released. In the UK 85% of moslems are on the dole/welfare. There are not enough white people to support the 3rd world scum, & Asians are smart enough not to do so.

http://conservative-headlines.com/2014/09/entire-swiss-village-forced-to-raise-taxes-to-pay-for-african-refugee-family/

Blogger Sir Wilshire (#320) August 07, 2015 6:57 PM  

And I probably should have included the sources Brown's summary statement was footnoting.

"See John G. Gager, 'Did Jewish Christians See the Rise of Islam,' in Adam H. Becker and Annette Yoshiko Reed, eds., The Ways That Never Parted: Jews and Christians in Late Antiquity and the Early Middle Ages (Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 2007), 361–372. A number of other articles in this volume are quite relevant. See also Matt Jackson-McCabe, ed., Jewish Christianity Reconsidered: Rethinking Ancient Groups and Texts (Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 2007). For the most comprehensive study to date on Jewish believers in church history (part of a planned multivolume series), see Oskar Skarsaune and Reidar Hvalvik, Jewish Believers in Jesus: The Early Centuries (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 2007)."

Blogger Floyd Looney August 07, 2015 8:33 PM  

I am not going to base my opinion of Israel on some nutcase. If that idiot doesn't see the billion blood-thirsty Muslims surrounding him as the biggest problem then he has some real mental issues.

Anonymous Takin' a look August 07, 2015 8:45 PM  

The problem Floyd Looney, is that most Jews are degrees of that nutcase.

Blogger Markku August 07, 2015 8:50 PM  

There is the double standard, Markku. You're willing to judge people as individuals as long as they are white (or East Asian). Otherwise you'll judge them by the worst in their respective groups.

No, it's the same standard for everyone. I judge the ethnic group's presence's effect on the host country as a whole, using all historical information I have available. I judge Europeans, Americans and Orientals (or is that a dirty word? Perhaps people would prefer the ambiguity of "Asians" as it includes Pakistanis?) to be beneficial.

However, my judgement is completely irrelevant to the subject at hand. What is relevant is what judgement the host country happens to make. I merely assess the likelihood of what the judgement turns out to be by my own assessment of the ethnic group. Because it's not random, it's made by rational actors.

If the judgement is stupid in the too strict direction, then it's still their decision and the person needs to leave. Or if it's stupid in the too lenient direction, then they deserve what they get.

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 9:18 PM  

Sir Wilshire

"What happened, then, was this. At first the Jesus movement was entirely Jewish, recognized as another Jewish sect (like the Pharisees or Sadducees or Essenes), but over a period of centuries, a period longer than America has existed as the United States,...."

The idea that it took centuries for the Church to go from majority Jewish to majority Gentile is flat out wrong. One can be entitled to their own opinions, not their own facts. This brief summary of quotes from the early church shows that they were not philosemetic. I have no problem with Jews, although I do believe they should recognize their Messiah.

It is Gentile Christians that have this fetish to immerse their Faith with culturally Jewish aspects (like cedar celebrations, or "messianic worship music" etc.) that annoy me.

Why should I give more authority to Michael Brown who authored a book two millennia after Christ, when I can listen to people far closer in history to the foundation of the Church?


Ignatius Bishop of Antioch (98-117A.D.) – Epistle to the Magnesians

For if we are still practicing Judaism, we admit that we have not received God’s favor…it is wrong to talk about Jesus Christ and live like Jews. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity.



"Epistle of Barnabas" Chapter 4vs 6-7 (between 130A.D. and 138 A.D.)

Take heed to yourselves and be not like some piling up you sins and saying that the covenant is theirs as well as ours. It is ours, but they lost it completely just after Moses received it.



Justin Martyr - Dialogue with Trypho (Between 138A.D. and 161 A.D.)

We too, would observe your circumcision of the flesh, your Sabbath days, and in a word, all you festivals, if we were not aware of the reason why they were imposed upon you, namely, because of your sins and the hardness of heart.

The custom of circumcising the flesh, handed down from Abraham, was given to you as a distinguishing mark, to set you off from other nations and from us Christians. The purpose of this was that you and only you might suffer the afflictions that are now justly yours; that only your land be desolated, and you cities ruined by fire, that the fruits of you land be eaten by strangers before your very eyes; that not one of you be permitted to enter your city of Jerusalem. Your circumcision of the flesh is the only mark by which you can certainly be distinguished from other men…as I stated before it was by reason of your sins and the sins of your fathers that, among other precepts, God imposed upon you the observence of the sabbath as a mark.

Blogger ChicagoRefugee August 07, 2015 9:22 PM  

I believe it was Thomas Sowell who noted that if one immigrant group consists of 95% good guys and 5% hooligans and a second group has a 90%/10% split, both groups are overwhelmingly good guys, but the second group still has twice as many trouble makers - and the receiving country is entitled to both notice and act upon that fact.

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 9:25 PM  

As strange as it may seem, and hard to believe, Church history did not take a 1500 year break from the Book of Acts to Martin Luther.

To ignore this, especially the second, third, and forth centuries of the church, is to be historically agnostic , and willfully ignorant, which many gentile Christians like to do, so they can listen to their exotic messianic worship music and pretend they're, Jews, and feel exotic as well.

Blogger Sir Wilshire (#320) August 07, 2015 9:32 PM  

I wasn't using Michael Brown as an authority for my point but quoting him and his sources so you could look into the evidence for yourself if you were interested since you said the ancient church writings are important to you. That's what the go through.

Your citations show the necessity of Paul's warning in Romans about the Gentiles spurning the root. They all too quickly did. Justin Martry is particularly egregious in contradictoring what Moses told us about the covenant.

Nice adhominen against Messianic Gentiles there btw.

Anonymous zen0 August 07, 2015 9:38 PM  

test text.

Blogger Cail Corishev August 07, 2015 9:41 PM  

Ah, here it is, John 14:6: "No one cometh to the Father except through Me or by keeping the Old Covenant."

Anonymous zen0 August 07, 2015 9:54 PM  

@154 1 Cail Corishev

> Ah, here it is, John 14:6: "No one cometh to the Father except through Me or by keeping the Old Covenant."

Jesus became the savior by being the only one who could in fact keep the old covenant, and being sacrificed as an innocent, for without blood, there is no forgiveness of sins.

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 9:56 PM  

Messianic Gentiles??? do you seriously claim that title as opposed to Christian?

The adhominen sticks

My citations show how the earliest receivers of Paul's writings viewed them, how the immediate successors of the Apostles viewed them.

I will research Brown more so as to understand your arguments. BTW Patristics, (the study of the writings of the early Church) IS important.

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 10:02 PM  

I just don't see the need for gentiles in the 21st Century to affect Jewish customs and flavors of music. I have a friend that does this, she even signs all her emails with shalom. It is the theological equivalent of Rachel Dolezal

Anonymous zen0 August 07, 2015 10:07 PM  

@156 Justin C.

>My citations show how the earliest receivers of Paul's writings viewed them, how the immediate successors of the Apostles viewed them.

I hope you are not a fan of Apostolistic Succession, because if so, I must disagree with you. There were 12 apostles.

End of story. No need for any more.

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 10:18 PM  

umm Bishops have always been considered sucessors (appointed by, having their authority) to the apostles since day one. Peter, for instance, was the Bishop of Rome, his successor, was Linus, his sucessor, Clement. etc.

Peter, also personally appointed others as Bishops, like Ignatius of Antioch. you can argue what to call it. No one is saying that bishops ARE apostles, only that they have been appointed by Apostles.

It is like an Officer in the Army is appointed by congress, it does't make him a congressman, but it legitimates his position in the Army. I can't just put on Captains bars and tel soldiers to follow me, they have to know that i have valid authority, going all the way back to the Constitution and Washington.

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 10:26 PM  

Apostolic Sucession was also the universal belief for 1500 years. You can't trace any of these innovative beliefs much farther than the 16th century. Not held in constant continuity anyways. Yes, there were dissidents, the Cathars in the 11th Century, the gnostics, the Arians, the Montanists, but I doubt you'd say they are your theological antecedents

Anonymous zen0 August 07, 2015 10:28 PM  

@159 Justin C

> umm Bishops have always been considered sucessors (appointed by, having their authority) to the apostles since day one.

By who?

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 10:30 PM  

by the whole christian world until the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century

Blogger Cail Corishev August 07, 2015 10:31 PM  

Jesus became the savior by being the only one who could in fact keep the old covenant, and being sacrificed as an innocent, for without blood, there is no forgiveness of sins.

True, but I don't see what it has to do with Christian Zionism. Can people today be saved by following the Old Covenant while rejecting Christ and waiting for a Messiah, or does everyone have to follow Jesus Christ to be saved?

If Christians believe the latter, then shouldn't they try to convert followers of the Old Covenant to Christ, rather than encouraging them in their folly and praising them for it?

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 10:32 PM  

if your argument is that Christianity got it wrong for 1500 years then thats fine. Just know even the communities that broke off, the Nestorians in the 600's the Orthodox in the 1000s, all believed this.

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 10:36 PM  

zen0, let me ask you this, what denomination are you? Tell me and I will quickly show you the family tree and when your branch got off the bus

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 10:39 PM  

if you say no denomination, just Christian, that makes you one of the most recent branches of all.

Anonymous zen0 August 07, 2015 10:47 PM  

@163 Cail
>True, but I don't see what it has to do with Christian Zionism. Can people today be saved by following the Old Covenant while rejecting Christ and waiting for a Messiah, or does everyone have to follow Jesus Christ to be saved?

I don't see how my statement contradicts the truth. No one can be saved by the old covenant. That is clear.

Anonymous zen0 August 07, 2015 10:58 PM  

Do you know who the Nicolaitans are, Justin C.?

Revelation 2:6

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 10:59 PM  

is that your denomination?

Blogger Sir Wilshire (#320) August 07, 2015 11:04 PM  

"Messianic Gentiles??? do you seriously claim that title as opposed to Christian?"

Those that claim the title claim both.

"My citations show how the earliest receivers of Paul's writings viewed them, how the immediate successors of the Apostles viewed them."

It shows how those particular authors and the communities under their influence at the time of the writing probably viewed them. It's not strong enough evidence to make generalizations about the church universal at the time.

"I will research Brown more so as to understand your arguments. BTW Patristics, (the study of the writings of the early Church) IS important.'"

The sources Brown cites agree. The Patristics are a part of the ancient evidence they look at. Also, you can find Paula Fredrickson's "The Ways that Never Parted" essay online for free that is a good intro to this subject.

"I just don't see the need for gentiles in the 21st Century to affect Jewish customs and flavors of music. I have a friend that does this, she even signs all her emails with shalom. It is the theological equivalent of Rachel Dolezal"

The Messianic Jews and Gentiles I learn from on this aren't interested in things like this. They're about serious eccelesiological development, and thus serious about the history of all this. Mark Kinzer's book, "Searching Her Own Mystery
Nostra Aetate, the Jewish People, and the Identity of the Church", is a good recent example of this.

"If Christians believe the latter, then shouldn't they try to convert followers of the Old Covenant to Christ, rather than encouraging them in their folly and praising them for it?"

Messianic Judaism isn't committed to some dual-covenant salvation theology (if by salvation you refer to eternal destination). The problem isn't Jewish observance of the law, which is a good thing, but rejection of the true Messiah. The first Jewish believers continued in their observance. Likewise Paul didn't convert, but experienced a "call" like the OT prophets.

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 11:05 PM  

I know where your going with this. Scofield, who lived 1900 years after Christ, thought that they referred to a catholicy clergy and laity divisions,

but Thomas Aquinas, Bede, and Saint Victorinus of Pettau (300s) thought they were a people who were into polygamy (1 Corinthians 6)

So is that your denomination?

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 11:07 PM  

Sir Wilshire will you agree to look at Patristics ? or are you already convinced that Christianity had it wrong for centuries except for a esoteric jew identifying remnant?

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 11:16 PM  

Also Sirwilshire every book you write is written by a man who lived in the 20th century. I have a really really hard time taking any of this seriously based upon scholarship so narrow.

The fact that all of these groups are recent American Protestant inventions of the 20th and 21st century doesn't ad any gravity to the situation. If this is supposed to be a restoration of Apostate Christianity, then why wasn't any of this done during the Reformation?

why then, when after almost millennia of loosing contact with some small churches in the east they look more Catholic than anything else. They don;t look jewish, or american non denominational, which is what you'd expect for a church in isolation if these expressions of Christianity were the original

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 11:24 PM  

The closest you "messianic gentiles will get to any historical validity is the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, which claims to have the ark of the covenant. But they also have clergy and laity, an altar, and believe in the Real Presence of the Eucharist. sounds kinda catholicish to me

Blogger Justin C August 07, 2015 11:33 PM  

If you long for a continuity with BIBLICAL judaism, you need the Priesthood, The Sacrifice, and an altar. My church has these. RABINICAL Judaism, formed after the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. is technically, a younger religion than Christianity.

Blogger D. G. D. Davidson August 07, 2015 11:54 PM  

Once someone denies the Holocaust, for which abundant historical evidence is hardly lacking, he can be safely ignored. You've gone straight into conspiracy history here.

Blogger D. G. D. Davidson August 08, 2015 12:08 AM  

@ Quartermaster

Of course, by sticking -olatry on anything, you can make it sound sinister.

I am a former Protestant, and I became Catholic in large part because Protestants proved incapable of accurately representing Catholicism on anything.

For example, your representation of Trent. What the Council did was cuts fine line between semi-Pelagianism on the one hand and Calvinism on the other, maintaining, as the Church always has, that salvation is always by God's grace, but that God also respects man's free will.

Blogger Cail Corishev August 08, 2015 12:11 AM  

Zen0, we agree then; maybe I misunderstood what you were saying.

I won't get into the Catholic vs. Protestant stuff, because that's not the topic. But here's some background on dispensationalism and related beliefs, and how they came into Christian thinking after 15 centuries of Christians believing nothing of the sort.

When Christian Spain kicked the Moors out in the Reconquista, there were many Jews left behind who had lived peacefully and even been influential with the Muslims. They weren't kicked out, because the Church had always taught not to persecute the Jews. Some were even given Muslim lands and buildings and allowed to turn mosques into synagogues.

However, though they were tolerated, there were strict limits on their actions, and especially what Christians could do with them. Christians weren't supposed to work for Jews as servants, to intermarry with them, to borrow from them or do much business with them, to involve them in leadership, etc. They were to be encouraged to convert, but otherwise left alone, in both the positive and negative sense. That had been taught consistently by many popes who had learned from experience what happened when there was too much mingling.

So there were strong incentives for Jews to convert to Christianity -- or to pretend to do so. Many did, known as "Conversos," and started gaining influence. And to be honest, there were some forced conversions, though the Church always taught that conversion must be voluntary. So there were many false conversions: Jews who pretended to convert, got baptized and publicly became Christians, and then were caught practicing Judaism, spreading the Talmud, etc. That made them heretics, subject to the Inquisition.

Eventually they were expelled in 1492. Some went to Muslim lands, but many went to other parts of Europe, often ending up in parts of Northern Europe where the state wasn't as Catholic, or at least didn't have the Inquisition. So they were settled there just in time for the Reformation, and were only too happy to join in with those who were revolting against the same authority that had kicked them out of their homes (sometimes more than once; some went from Spain to Portugal only to be expelled again).

Now, I'm not saying the Protestant Reformation was a Jewish plot or anything like that (Martin Luther, author of "The Jews and Their Lies," was certainly no fan). But they were there, thousands or tens of thousands of them, in the mix of people who were pissed off at Rome and going different directions. They influenced some groups, such as the Puritans, more than others, inserting new Zionist ideas about the Jews still having a special role in salvation and spreading a revised history that portrayed the Jews as constant victims of Christian persecution -- beliefs which seem to have been growing among Christians ever since.

Rome maintained the traditional teaching -- that Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant and replaced it with the New, the Body of Christ becoming the new Israel -- from the Council of Jerusalem in ~50AD up until 1965 at Vatican II when Nostra Aetate turned that on its head. Ever since, the Roman hierarchy has praised Jews for following the Old Covenant and suggested that it is still salvific for them. So if Catholic teaching on this seems confused and stupid at the moment, that's because it is.

Blogger D. G. D. Davidson August 08, 2015 12:15 AM  

@ Tom Kratman

And St. Paul doesn't contradict St. James. St. Paul takes aim at Judaizers distressing his Gentile converts. St. James takes aim at the lax who think they need not practice their faith. Different situations, different emphases.

Luther's "faith alone," however, was simply unknown and unheard of before him.

Blogger Joshua Sinistar August 08, 2015 1:10 AM  

Don't bother with the Zionist Position. The Big Time Evangelicals and Phony Preacher Men of the 666 Club are bought and paid for, but the rank and file are beginning to see the futility of defending the Israelis. Anyone who believes that the muslims will ever accept a non-muslim government in Al Quds is simply deluded. The Crusades showed that Zionism is futile. When the Mohammedans say they will throw you into the sea, they fucken mean it. You can slaughter thousands and thousands more will take their place.
All of you have better fish to fry anyway. Bretton Woods is now dead. The BRICs bank is up and running and I hear they're going Renminbi. Have you seen the deflation of Wall Street? Looks like money is fleeing America for safer havens elsewhere to me.
All those disruptions of the Chinese Stock Market and the keylogger break-ins of FEDGOV databases. Interesting. Looks like we have the beginnings of another Bankster War. You know, all those new computers are made in China. I wonder if the Chinese have put a chip on those motherboards? If you put a chip on a motherboard you could probably bypass all those Mickey Mouse Security Protocols FEDGOV puts on its databases and directly access the Hard Drives with a permanent backdoor. Its a really bad idea to have your tech made in the Home Country of a Geopoilitical opponent. The Chinese may have the keys to the city already.
You boys who haven't already better gun up now and have a bug out plan. If enough money leaves America the entire System will crash. The only thing holding it together is Federal Reserve Funny Money, and if there isn't enough it will all Fall Down. Everything. Banks, stocks, media, networks and even Military Industrial Complex. It'll all collapse like a house of cards without the currency to keep it going. If enough cash goes to the BRICS, then China will break the Fed like Bane broke Batman.

Anonymous Heaviside August 08, 2015 6:00 AM  

>That's what happens when you get your ass kicked.

>Whatever they can take, Tommy, if they can do so without provoking the Jews into exterminating them. If they miscalculate that, tough luck for them.

Jews deserve whatever they can take without provoking the gentiles into exterminating them. If they miscalculate that, tough luck for them.

Blogger JaimeInTexas August 08, 2015 9:52 AM  

@179 Luther's faith alone is in the Scriptures, from the Fall until Jesus returns. The true Church has always been salvation through trust/faith in the God revealed in the Scriptures. The Law has never saved anyone nor ancestry. The true Church has operated under different dispensations/economies but, unless there is faith in the object of worship and that object of worship being the God revealed in the Scriptures, your performance is worthless and of no value salvation wise. The whole of Scripture screams believe and trust THE LORD and you shall be saved. Demand equity under the Law ... well, good luck with that.

Blogger D. G. D. Davidson August 08, 2015 1:00 PM  

@179

I can't figure out from your comment if we're in disagreement. The Church teaches, and has always taught, and has been careful to define in such places as the Council of Orange and the Council of Trent, that salvation comes only and entirely from God's grace, but that man has free will. The Church has always walked the narrow tightrope between Pelagianism semi-Pelagianism on the one hand and Calvinism or other forms of determinism on the other. St. Thomas Aquinas probably delineates this in the clearest fashion.

Luther's "faith alone" is not in the scriptures, which is why he had to add the word "alone" to his translation, because it was not in the Greek. Nonetheless, focusing on Luther's famous phrase obscure the issue. The real difference between Catholicism and Lutheranism is not the question of whether a Christian is obligated to obey the moral law and perform works of charity, because both Catholics and Lutherans affirm that he must; Lutherans are not antinomians, and neither are the Calvinists. I think just once in my life I met an actual Protestant antinomian, and his views were hardly common among Protestant sects.

No, the real difference is the technical distinction between infused and applied righteousness, an issue about which nobody but a theologian is likely to care or concern himself, because, though the theory differs, "on the ground," as it were, in praxis, both Protestants and Catholics teach the same thing, that the Christian is obliged to faith and works.

This is one of the reasons I left the Protestant faith of my fathers, much as I respect it, and returned to the Church of my forefathers, because Protestantism is a rebellion over nothing. All the realcomplaints Protestants had, which had to do with simony and corruption rather than theology, have been dealt with. The theological complaints are so much hairsplitting. Protestantism is a rebellion without a cause.

The other reasons I returned to the Barque of Peter are because I recognized an obligation to respond to the priestly prayer of Christ and do my part, however small, to heal the division in his family, which I could only do by ending my personal rebellion. I also recognized that rebellion and resentment of the Church, the heart of Protestantism, are contrary to obedience to Christ. Then, of course, there are the historical matters: Protestant theology is unknown before the Protestants show up. They did not recover something old. They were innovators, sometimes brilliant innovators, but innovators all the same.

Blogger JaimeInTexas August 08, 2015 1:37 PM  

john 6:25-59

Blogger rcocean August 08, 2015 3:08 PM  

Christian Zionists ignore Luther and 1800 years of Catholic teaching.

Blogger Tommy Hass August 08, 2015 9:42 PM  

"And if they were correct. Tommy?"

It's precious to call someone a murderous thug, while giving him every reason to become one.

Btw, you're telling me if Palis were better strategists/tacticians, they could win? Interesting.

Blogger Tommy Hass August 08, 2015 9:49 PM  

"and I'm a believer in the right of conquest. The animals you refer to as palestinians attacked a nation... got their asses kicked... and lost their country.

That's how it works."

Actually, the vermin we refer to as kikes invaded Palestine on the flimsy pretext that their Holee Book said it belongs to them and because a part of their ancestors lived there before the Romans told them to bite the curb.

Can you provide a source for your daring hypothesis? I shall conteplate it's merits when I go vacationing in Izmir this year, or, as you winners call it, Smyrna.

Anonymous Heaviside August 08, 2015 11:37 PM  

>Once someone denies the Holocaust, for which abundant historical evidence is hardly lacking, he can be safely ignored. You've gone straight into conspiracy history here.

All one has to do to understand the reality of the Holohoax is to fully accept that "SJWs always lie."

Blogger Tom Kratman August 08, 2015 11:39 PM  

So are you suggesting that what the reds did to the Ukrainians (and no small number of Great Russians, etc, too) in the 30s was somehow prompted by the German invasion in the 1940s? Fascinating concept, Tommy; who knew Stalin had working time machines. Or did they retroactively stop being the murderous thugs they had been once the Germans crossed the border? That, too, suggests some interesting temporal powers to being a communist.

It would be a necessary condition but it is not a sufficient condition, They would either have to stop being Arabs, which is to say amoral familists, or discover a way to build their organizations around blood while preventing those blood-based organizations from being so sensitive to losses.

Anonymous Heaviside August 08, 2015 11:39 PM  

>Btw, you're telling me if Palis were better strategists/tacticians, they could win? Interesting.

The Palestinians will win. All they have to do is wait.

Blogger Tom Kratman August 08, 2015 11:50 PM  

I'm not sure what you're point is, RamBam, nor how it relates to mine. Could you explain further? For example, are you saying that there is no lingering distaste for gas chambers and ovens among the Israelis? If so, then how to explain the lack of extermination of the Palestinians? Are you say that the Israelis by and large don't believe the Holocaust occurred? This would be news to me, but perhaps I could be persuaded. Are you suggesting that Gaza and the West Bank, which have been largely turned over to the Palis for self government, have not, along with formerly occupied southern Lebanon, been used as bases for various forms of attack on the Jews? Are you misinterpreting my statement as a moral one, when it is, in fact, merely realistic and practical?

Blogger Tom Kratman August 08, 2015 11:51 PM  

While the world, no doubt, staggers before the awesomely shocking power of your strategic insight, Heavi, don't you find it a little odd that the Palis, themselves, refuse to listen to you and will not wait?

Blogger Tom Kratman August 09, 2015 12:00 AM  

"Actually, the vermin we refer to as kikes invaded Palestine on the flimsy pretext that their Holee Book..."

Assuming that is the whole truth, Tommy, would it be equally true that, "Actually, the vermin we refer to as "Spics" invaded Alandalus on the flimsy pretext that it used to be theirs"? On the other hand, if it's not the whole truth would it be true that, "Actually, the vermin we refer to as wogs and dune coons invaded the Holy Land on the flimsy pretext that their Holee Book called for Jihad"?

And, of course, the less said about Germans on the Rhine one allegedly frozen New Years Eve, and Turks with monstrous great guns outside the Walls of Constantinople, or illegal immigrants like those folks from the Mayflower, the better.

My point, by the way, isn't to criticize Arabs or Moslems or Germans or Turks, nor even refugee English Puritans. Just about _everybody_ lives on conquered land, at one level or another. You can have it if you can take it and keep it, no more, no less.

Anonymous Heaviside August 09, 2015 12:18 AM  

Well, I could never turn down a compliment from Tom Kratman, but no matter how smart I am, the Palestinians still have the right to make their own decisions. Either way, the demography bomb will merrily tick away.

Blogger Tom Kratman August 09, 2015 4:04 AM  

That's where Zyklon B v.2.0 comes in. The Palis can make their own decisions, and so can the Jews. When it starts looking existential, they're likely to remember that they got the Holy Land in the first place by pretty much obliterating the Canaanites. Will we interfere with that? One doubts. The Euros? The Euros who are within IRBM range of Israeli nukes? No chance. The other "frontline" Arabs? Militarily worthless almost everywhere (the Jordanians aren't bad, but are few). Only the Turks could make a difference and they're within range of those nukes, too.

So, yeah, the Palis can make their own decisions. But when they make the decisions that get them turned into a mere memory, they'll have no one to blame but themselves.

Blogger Tommy Hass August 09, 2015 10:41 AM  

"So are you suggesting that what the reds did to the Ukrainians (and no small number of Great Russians, etc, too) in the 30s was somehow prompted by the German invasion in the 1940s? Fascinating concept, Tommy; who knew Stalin had working time machines. Or did they retroactively stop being the murderous thugs they had been once the Germans crossed the border? That, too, suggests some interesting temporal powers to being a communist."

I don't deny that the Reds did some really nasty stuff before Barbarossa. But it was to illustrate what I said: It's silly to call someone a murderous thug while giving him every reason to murder you. Maybe the example was suboptimal...

"Assuming that is the whole truth, Tommy, would it be equally true that, "Actually, the vermin we refer to as "Spics" invaded Alandalus on the flimsy pretext that it used to be theirs"? On the other hand, if it's not the whole truth would it be true that, "Actually, the vermin we refer to as wogs and dune coons invaded the Holy Land on the flimsy pretext that their Holee Book called for Jihad"?

And, of course, the less said about Germans on the Rhine one allegedly frozen New Years Eve, and Turks with monstrous great guns outside the Walls of Constantinople, or illegal immigrants like those folks from the Mayflower, the better.

My point, by the way, isn't to criticize Arabs or Moslems or Germans or Turks, nor even refugee English Puritans. Just about _everybody_ lives on conquered land, at one level or another. You can have it if you can take it and keep it, no more, no less."

Most of these examples happened in the distant past, i.e. they're fait accompli. Israel is more recent.

Furthermore, my goal was to point out that it wasn't Palis that attacked Jews, but it was Jews that poured into Palestine, contra what Nate said.

We cannot tell conquered people that they have to get over it because such is the way of mankind and then criticize Palis for not offering resistance, because that, too, is something you need to expect. That's what happens when you get your ass kicked. Then, to the Jews I say, "That's what happens when you kick somebody's ass".

"Will we interfere with that? One doubts. The Euros? The Euros who are within IRBM range of Israeli nukes? No chance. The other "frontline" Arabs? Militarily worthless almost everywhere (the Jordanians aren't bad, but are few). Only the Turks could make a difference and they're within range of those nukes, too."

The thought of Jews nuking Europe is amusing. That's a good way to ensure the completion of the European Baking Championships: Electric Bogaloo.

Blogger Tommy Hass August 09, 2015 10:55 AM  

I honestly don't think that Jews are stupid enough to attempt a genocide. Having nukes is no guarantee that you won't be invaded. There very few Jews in the world and indeed in Israel. Exterminating them is done much faster than they can do it to any nation that would interfere.

Anonymous Eric Ashley August 09, 2015 11:49 AM  

There are a fair number of us without much sympathy for th e palis. Google 'Palistinian death cultists' or something like that.

See, Arabs whine about how we help out the Jews. But really, we're helping the Arabs by keeping the Jews from solving the problem.

Nobody likes the Palis, not even their fellow Arabs.

And there will never be peace in the Middle East until Christ returns with a rod of iron in His hand.

Blogger Tommy Hass August 09, 2015 1:49 PM  

"But really, we're helping the Arabs by keeping the Jews from solving the problem."

This is what I dislike about you fellas. When things get inconvenient, you suddenly turn to a Krogan like attitude where the idea that exterminating an entire race is bad is considered naive.

In other words, no one that refers to genocide as "solving the problem" can ever authoritatively refer to Hitler as a bad person. Why, he only solved his problem!

It's too bad that the Moors didn't engage in a genocide of Christians, it would be too delicious to throw your own arguments in your face.

"RIGHT OF CONQUEST MOFUGGER"

Blogger Tom Kratman August 09, 2015 3:11 PM  

Point, Tommy, is that the Euros won't do a damned thing to help the Palis if if meant being nuked, or even having a few cities nuked, while to the Israelis, it wouldn't make a lot of difference if they're exterminated by Europeans or by Arabs, the end result being the same. Nukes, by the way, _are_ a guarantee that you won't be invaded by Europe or the US, because the domestic political cost of losing, say, 20000 or 50000 soldier is, these days, simply unsupportable.

As for who attacked whom, depends on the level you mean and the time. IIRC, a) the Jews never entirely left, nor stopped breeding while there, b) the Ottomans, who owned the place allowed or even invited lots of Jews in; since they were relatively peaceful and hardworking, and paid their taxes, this probably made sense. So there were substantial populations of both there, from long ago to circa the mid to late 1940s. As to who started shooting first, post war, which is a different question about a different time as a different level, who knows, really. Do you want to start with the Hebron Massacre? With the 1929 riots? The one jew killed first at Tel Hai, in 1920, or the roughly even firefight that commenced later on?

Do you happen to have a principled cut off date for when we can't use historical examples of right of conquest? If so, would it happen to operate off the principle that, "Once Islam takes something then right of conquest by anyone else ends"? I mean, if that's not the cut off date or set of dates then clearly we Christians have the right to the Holy Land, since we had it before the Muslim conquest.

I don't actually criticize the Palis for fighting; in their shoes I'd do the same. I don't even necessarily criticize them for going outside the bounds of law of war in their fighting in targeting civilians, since they're too inept to fight even citizen militia unless it cripples itself on their behalf. I do, however, criticize them for hypocrisy when they go outside the bounds of law of war in targeting civilians and then whine about it when the Jews retaliate and I do criticize them for stupidity in not realizing that this opens them up to extermination, which Israel is capable of, right now, and they are not.

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